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| 01:27.45 | not-a-bird | Does the stock firefox esr not do sound anymore except through pulse? |
| 01:29.09 | MinceR | dunno, mozilla managed to convince me to look for other browsers already :> |
| 01:30.22 | not-a-bird | And what did you find? |
| 01:32.00 | fsmithred | I think 57 is the first one to require pulseaudio |
| 01:33.06 | fsmithred | 52.x in repos |
| 01:33.17 | not-a-bird | 52.6.0 |
| 01:33.21 | not-a-bird | But no sound... |
| 01:33.51 | not-a-bird | Maybe it's picking the wrong output and I need a .asoundrc or something... |
| 01:33.56 | fsmithred | do you have sound at all? something other than browser? |
| 01:34.02 | not-a-bird | aplay |
| 01:34.09 | not-a-bird | aplay was able to play the alsa test sounds |
| 01:34.12 | fsmithred | ok |
| 01:34.37 | fsmithred | maybe open alsamixer and turn up some sliders, make sure stuff isn't muted |
| 01:34.58 | fsmithred | I assume you don't have pulseaudio installed |
| 01:35.05 | not-a-bird | your assumption is correct |
| 01:35.24 | fsmithred | it does come with the default desktop install |
| 01:36.06 | not-a-bird | I started with a fairly empty rootfs and just added stuff as I noticed I needed it. |
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| 01:39.56 | fsmithred | I can tell you that it should work. I've got sound in ff-esr in ascii and didn't have to do anything special. |
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| 01:40.17 | not-a-bird | that's good for my sanity, at least |
| 01:40.26 | not-a-bird | so it is helpful to know. |
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| 01:48.43 | MinceR | not that much, yet |
| 01:48.52 | MinceR | i have chromium, i just started trying out otter |
| 01:49.06 | MinceR | i have palemoon, but their developers seem to be no better |
| 01:49.14 | golinux | I needed an .asoundrc file to get sound working at all. |
| 01:49.21 | not-a-bird | that's not available in the repo for this arch, |
| 01:49.35 | not-a-bird | golinux: yeah, I just created one, now to test... |
| 01:49.51 | MinceR | i've done some research on webkit-, blink-, electron-, muon- and CEF-based browsers and it's pretty damn bleak |
| 01:50.20 | MinceR | i'll just have to write my own, and probably leave chromium to make bloatapps work |
| 01:50.32 | not-a-bird | woot! |
| 01:50.34 | not-a-bird | sound! |
| 01:51.24 | not-a-bird | I'm going to have to make a script for cycling through sound devices in the .asoundrc file though... right now it's on hdmi, but later I'll want headphones |
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| 01:58.05 | not-a-bird | two things occur to me as I sit here working... |
| 01:58.21 | not-a-bird | 1 - i think I can actually replace my desktop with this asus tinkerboard |
| 01:58.27 | not-a-bird | 2 - sophie chen is awesome |
| 02:02.59 | gnarface | firefox is doomed but gecko is still the most standards-compliant rendering engine. the world could use some more gecko-based browsers |
| 02:03.21 | gnarface | hopefully gecko will survive the impending implosion of mozilla.org |
| 02:03.26 | gnarface | im |
| 02:03.32 | gnarface | i'm not a fan of webkit |
| 02:04.12 | gnarface | (which everything else these days seems to be based off of besides IE, and i'm not even convinced the IE/Edge team actually understands the standards as written) |
| 02:04.39 | MinceR | gecko is doomed as well |
| 02:04.44 | MinceR | mozilla won't maintain it properly |
| 02:04.47 | gnarface | maybe someone will fork it |
| 02:04.52 | MinceR | the palemoon people won't maintain goanna properly |
| 02:05.01 | MinceR | and nobody else has even seriously mentioned wanting to do it |
| 02:05.03 | MinceR | and it's a big job |
| 02:05.08 | gnarface | oh, i know |
| 02:05.29 | MinceR | (not to mention that mozilla's and palemoon's attitudes seriously suck) |
| 02:05.38 | gnarface | yea i noticed that part, too |
| 02:06.06 | gnarface | but recall that mozilla.org aren't the original owners of that code |
| 02:06.15 | gnarface | i predict it will outlive them just like it's previous owners |
| 02:06.18 | MinceR | maybe the "modern" web will finally die as people realize they don't want to maintain gecko, goanna, webkit or blink |
| 02:06.40 | gnarface | hah, well we're about 20 years overdue for the VR future we were promised as children |
| 02:06.41 | MinceR | it's free software, so it doesn't matter that much who owns it |
| 02:06.59 | MinceR | i don't miss VR bloat :> |
| 02:07.08 | gnarface | i just miss what it could have been |
| 02:07.20 | not-a-bird | have you seen the magic leap demo? |
| 02:07.27 | gnarface | untapped potential |
| 02:07.34 | not-a-bird | it looks like AR is going to win over VR |
| 02:07.43 | MinceR | not yet |
| 02:07.51 | gnarface | not-a-bird: oh, i don't actually consider those two distinct |
| 02:08.02 | not-a-bird | yeah, I could see that... |
| 02:08.26 | not-a-bird | I think of them as separate because traditional vr gear didn't let you see what was around you while using it |
| 02:09.01 | gnarface | not-a-bird: augmented reality/artificial reality/virtual reality - one day these distinctions will seem as meaningless as the distinction between "PC" and "Apple" |
| 02:10.09 | gnarface | you're right there's a different connotation to the term i just think the most logical progression for making VR useful in real-world situations naturally requires at least some "AR" features too |
| 02:10.20 | gnarface | some day, the interface we use will be a hybrid of both |
| 02:10.27 | not-a-bird | i just want a pair of headphones with an accelerometer and an sdk to go with it |
| 02:10.50 | gnarface | heh, so you can make headbanger apps? |
| 02:10.59 | not-a-bird | no, those exist, and they look stupid |
| 02:11.03 | gnarface | really? |
| 02:11.06 | gnarface | damn i'm getting old |
| 02:11.07 | MinceR | there still is a meaningful distinction between "PC" and "Apple" |
| 02:11.26 | TheTrueHooha | MinceR: only amongst idiots |
| 02:11.31 | not-a-bird | i'd want them to create a audio vr mud... but without the text |
| 02:11.37 | gnarface | MinceR: but not in terms of what they're actually *for* - more just in terms of personality/identity |
| 02:11.38 | MinceR | (in that particularly broken, crippled, backdoored implementations of the former are also available from the latter) |
| 02:11.39 | TheTrueHooha | Apple is not it's own thing anymore. It's gone fully IBM-Compatible |
| 02:11.40 | not-a-bird | well, i suppose there'd be text, too.. |
| 02:11.45 | TheTrueHooha | and now it's devloved below that |
| 02:12.13 | MinceR | well, at least they have yet to spread their atrocious OSes to non-apple hardware :> |
| 02:12.20 | gnarface | yea, exactly TheTrueHooha - they even use Intel chips now. you can run Windows better on a Mac than a PC in some cases |
| 02:13.07 | gnarface | my point being summarized just as this: the differences will gradually become primarily semantic |
| 02:13.16 | TheTrueHooha | gnarface: nowthat Jobs died the guy in charge has completly destroyed the company |
| 02:13.43 | MinceR | good |
| 02:13.49 | gnarface | TheTrueHooha: and it's somewhat interesting to note that this is second attempt |
| 02:14.13 | gnarface | they brought Jobs *back* once to bail Cook out of this mess before |
| 02:14.30 | gnarface | i can't say i could have done it though |
| 02:14.34 | gnarface | so maybe nobody can |
| 02:14.41 | MinceR | you know your company is in trouble when they bring jobs to try to save it :> |
| 02:14.54 | gnarface | well i can't say i could have done it |
| 02:15.01 | MinceR | i wouldn't have done it |
| 02:15.10 | gnarface | i would never have predicted "pretty" computers would sell |
| 02:15.24 | adhoc | lifestyle sold quite well |
| 02:15.29 | MinceR | they deserved to go under ever since they decided to push DRM, if not earlier |
| 02:15.55 | MinceR | oh, and closed platforms |
| 02:16.01 | gnarface | but maybe they wouldn't have. maybe the so-called "reality distortion field" created by Jobs clever social engineering and management strategies were necessary to make the whole thing work. |
| 02:16.18 | gnarface | *Jobs's |
| 02:16.28 | MinceR | well, it was a niche of its own |
| 02:16.36 | MinceR | too bad it ended up poisoning the entire industry |
| 02:16.47 | gnarface | but i mean, it WAS a niche, and now it's ... the dominant platform in Hollywood |
| 02:17.05 | MinceR | now it's the cancer that's killing general purpose computers and smartphones, yes |
| 02:17.11 | gnarface | haha |
| 02:17.16 | gnarface | sadly true, perhaps |
| 02:17.42 | MinceR | they were the ones to make closed platforms based on a crApp Store popular, after all |
| 02:17.49 | gnarface | there's a parallel universe, where Sara Silverman went into Star Trek instead of comedy, and Commodore won the PC wars. |
| 02:17.56 | MinceR | computers were about empowering the user before they did this |
| 02:18.20 | MinceR | and how friendly was Commodore to those who would build compatible equipment? |
| 02:18.42 | gnarface | the C64 manual contained full blueprints for the machine |
| 02:18.52 | gnarface | the chips were all off-the-shelf milspec 74 series stuff i think |
| 02:19.12 | gnarface | well i'm talking out my ass there but i remember it was generally easy to get stuff |
| 02:19.30 | gnarface | it was an entirely proprietary system but they weren't all about keeping secrets |
| 02:19.56 | gnarface | the platform was effectively fully open |
| 02:20.03 | gnarface | with the one exception of license terms |
| 02:21.06 | gnarface | with some time at radioshack and some entry-level soldering proficiency you could clone your own C64 right from the system manual |
| 02:21.26 | gnarface | heh |
| 02:21.36 | gnarface | now that i actually look at what i'm saying it's not a big surprise IBM ate their lunch |
| 02:22.10 | MinceR | but only because IBM didn't care to lock the platform down until it was too late |
| 02:22.55 | MinceR | should have been an early lesson to me (and to everybody else) that no business can be trusted to do the right thing for tech |
| 02:23.01 | gnarface | nah i blame it on IBM being more willing to lie to rich idiot executives |
| 02:23.22 | gnarface | Commodore was about the product, IBM was about the business plan |
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| 02:23.40 | gnarface | only a handful of the enlightened notice it set multimedia back a decade |
| 02:24.02 | gnarface | we're way off topic and i think it's my fault |
| 02:24.06 | gnarface | sorry |
| 02:24.12 | not-a-bird | can someone remind me what package I need so things like pcmanfm get icons? |
| 02:24.21 | not-a-bird | seems like there's a theme or something... |
| 02:24.45 | MinceR | gtk icon themes, i guess |
| 02:24.59 | MinceR | but i have no idea which ones are actually packaged nowadays |
| 02:25.22 | MinceR | tango, maybe |
| 02:25.22 | gnarface | not-a-bird: there are a bunch but the only one i can think off off the top of my head is named 'tango-icon-theme' |
| 02:25.40 | not-a-bird | it seems there's a specific thing... in the past I installed random stuff till it worked, but, but then I had a bunch of extra crap as a result... |
| 02:25.46 | not-a-bird | I'll give that a shot |
| 02:26.05 | gnarface | not-a-bird: i've had some issues with some stuff not always noticing new icons in /usr/share/icons/hicolor though unless you touch them to update the timestamps |
| 02:26.16 | gnarface | i think it's a bug |
| 02:26.32 | MinceR | sounds like "free"desktop :> |
| 02:26.56 | not-a-bird | that wasn't it... |
| 02:27.07 | not-a-bird | unless I need to get all touchy |
| 02:27.14 | gnarface | gtk2 or gtk3? |
| 02:27.27 | gnarface | it might matter |
| 02:27.52 | not-a-bird | i touched all the things... that didn't help. |
| 02:27.59 | not-a-bird | *shrug* |
| 02:28.02 | gnarface | hmmm |
| 02:28.21 | MinceR | have you tried restarting pcmanfm? |
| 02:28.35 | not-a-bird | oh yeah, killed it and relaunched each time |
| 02:29.10 | not-a-bird | there's one package I need... I just dont remember the name... |
| 02:29.18 | MinceR | may also need to specify that you want to use a particular icon theme, but i forget how that is done |
| 02:29.31 | MinceR | (which probably also depends on which gtk version it uses) |
| 02:30.14 | gnarface | not-a-bird: do you even remember part of the name? you can pass a regexp to apt-cache search |
| 02:30.18 | not-a-bird | i always imagined it pieced together the theme based on the selected one, and then filling in pieces from others |
| 02:30.40 | not-a-bird | no, not a clue... but if I can't stumble over it tonight I can find it at work tomorrow |
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| 02:30.55 | not-a-bird | oh |
| 02:31.03 | not-a-bird | gnome-icon-theme did it |
| 02:31.10 | gnarface | ah |
| 02:31.27 | gnarface | i was gonna recommend the search pattern 'icon-theme' |
| 02:31.30 | not-a-bird | hey, are there purpy-themed icons? |
| 02:31.48 | gnarface | i don't think there are, yet... but it's a good idea. i wonder if they're in the works.... |
| 02:33.40 | gnarface | ask golinux about that |
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| 02:48.15 | not-a-bird | damn, need sleep |
| 02:49.24 | fsmithred | yes, there are purpy icons, but they haven't been packaged yet |
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| 08:40.28 | nailyk | hi all. Not important question: Is there a way to define 'notification' popup screen to midle one ? |
| 08:41.22 | nailyk | (I have 3 monitors, 'principal' is the middle one, but I can only set it to left top, or right top). On 1.0 it was on the monitor where the screen was IIRC. |
| 08:41.25 | nailyk | Thanks in advance. |
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| 13:46.47 | msiism | iirc, you can install devuan from within a running devuan live system. is that possible for both desktop-live and minimal-live or for the first one only? |
| 13:47.26 | KatolaZ | msiism: both, using refracta-installer |
| 13:48.54 | msiism | KatolaZ: ok, thanks. |
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| 14:20.40 | unixman | Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 03:15:01 -0800 ... rsync: getaddrinfo: files.devuan.org 873: Temporary failure in name resolution |
| 14:22.35 | jaromil | mmmm |
| 14:22.58 | jaromil | seems to work. prob on your side? |
| 14:23.07 | jaromil | ip is 5.135.82.177 |
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| 14:31.36 | KatolaZ | unixman: could be on your side? |
| 14:35.06 | unixman | Granted, that was a few hours ago when cron ran the job. So, it was probably a transient network problem. |
| 14:36.19 | unixman | I just copied that from the e-mail cron sent while going through my few hundred messages for the morning. :) |
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| 15:06.37 | NewGnuGuy | Good Morning, Devuan |
| 15:08.35 | d9867eb | hi, how do switch to runit? |
| 15:11.37 | NewGnuGuy | I don't there is a "Devuan officially supported" way of doing that yet. That will likely come in Devuan Beowulf, I would think. |
| 15:12.28 | NewGnuGuy | I'm not in charge of that, so no promises. |
| 15:13.08 | d9867eb | NewGnuGuy: hhm i had like to switch now |
| 15:14.41 | NewGnuGuy | I know. We all want all features and functionality now. |
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| 16:27.52 | deva | I am experiencing some odd behaviour with logwatch. It works flawlessly for a number of days and then suddenly stops sendimg me emails. |
| 16:28.22 | deva | Restarting cron makes it work again for a number of days, and the again; nothing |
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| 16:29.06 | deva | The glories internet has not been able to give me any hint as to what the problem might be. Mainly suggestions of installing a newer version of logrotate (which in the process invokes cron) |
| 16:29.39 | deva | So my guess is that these guy errornously /think/ that solved the issue, but actually only "postponed" it |
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| 16:30.24 | NewGnuGuy | Is logrotate a dependency of logwatch? I'm unfamiliar with logwatch |
| 16:31.12 | deva | logwatch is a log analyser written in python that parses the log files and generates a summary of what happend during the last 24 hours |
| 16:31.19 | deva | It is not a part of logrotate |
| 16:31.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | I hiess logwatch doesn't notice logrotate swirching logs to new files |
| 16:31.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | guess* |
| 16:31.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | lsof is your friend |
| 16:31.55 | deva | DocScrutinizer05, But that should still result in a logwatch email but with empty content if that was the case |
| 16:32.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh, yes, prolly |
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| 16:32.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | unless logwatch doesn't do such things like empty mails when absolutely zilch got logged in any file it watches |
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| 16:33.07 | deva | lsof reports no dangling files belongin to the logwatch process |
| 16:33.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | what do you mean by "dangling file"? |
| 16:33.59 | deva | An open file descriptor pointing at the pre-rotated file |
| 16:34.28 | deva | But even that shouldn't be a problem, because the inode is kept open, even if the file it points to is deleted in the filesystem |
| 16:34.29 | blinkdog | does logwatch itself have a log? |
| 16:34.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | that file would still exist, the handle keeps it alive even when logrotate renamed or deleted it |
| 16:35.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's a well known practice to create 'annonymous' files that vanish automatically when process ends |
| 16:36.00 | deva | blinkdog, grep reports 0 occurences of the phrase "logwatch" in the /var/log dir |
| 16:36.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | create file, open file, delete file, write and read to phantom file |
| 16:36.10 | deva | DocScrutinizer05, Yup |
| 16:36.29 | deva | That's what I meant by the inode being kept :-) |
| 16:38.03 | KatolaZ | deva: sure, but it won't receive more stuff |
| 16:38.14 | KatolaZ | and any read on the file will fail |
| 16:38.19 | KatolaZ | IMHO |
| 16:38.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | I can only think of logrotate restarting logwatch |
| 16:38.55 | deva | Iirc logwatch doesn't keep the files open |
| 16:39.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually how would logwatch concatenate logs for a time window that spans across a logrotate event? |
| 16:39.25 | deva | It merely looks at the timestamps of the log entries |
| 16:39.53 | KatolaZ | deva: if the file gets logrotated, you don't have any more log entries... |
| 16:39.56 | deva | I think it just looks at the current log |
| 16:40.06 | deva | True |
| 16:40.15 | KatolaZ | deva: are you sure about that? |
| 16:40.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, I meant where from does logrotate get old entries of logs when those entries got compressed and renamed by logrotate |
| 16:40.29 | deva | Both logwatch and logrotate are in the cron/daily folder |
| 16:40.46 | deva | logwatch has 00 prefixes to be exetuted before anything else |
| 16:40.49 | KatolaZ | deva: logwatch should probably be restarted by logrotate |
| 16:40.59 | KatolaZ | if logrotate rotates one of the logs logwatch is looking at |
| 16:41.09 | KatolaZ | deva: that's wrong |
| 16:41.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe that's the reason why logrotate usually keeps the most recent rolled-out log archive uncopressed? |
| 16:41.16 | deva | If the order is decided by the filenames then logwatch should always be executed right before logrotate |
| 16:41.20 | KatolaZ | you should add a postrotate task for that |
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| 16:41.30 | KatolaZ | deva: that's the problem |
| 16:41.33 | KatolaZ | ... |
| 16:41.42 | KatolaZ | if it's executed *before* logrotate |
| 16:41.53 | KatolaZ | and logrotate rotates logs under the hood... |
| 16:42.01 | KatolaZ | logwatch won't find them any more |
| 16:42.19 | KatolaZ | the best way is to have logwatch restarted by logrotate |
| 16:42.23 | KatolaZ | as a postrotate job |
| 16:42.27 | deva | And then, while reading,logrotate renames the file, but logwatch should still eb able to read the contents as long as it keeps the file open? |
| 16:42.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | ^^^ |
| 16:42.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | KatolaZ nailed it |
| 16:43.16 | KatolaZ | deva: please read |
| 16:44.06 | deva | lgorotate is not running as a service. It merely does the analysis and terminates |
| 16:44.13 | KatolaZ | ok deva |
| 16:44.15 | KatolaZ | fine |
| 16:44.17 | KatolaZ | go on :D |
| 16:44.21 | KatolaZ | it must work then |
| 16:44.25 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 16:44.27 | deva | But I guess I could try putting it in postrotate to see if it solves anything |
| 16:44.36 | KatolaZ | it *will* solve it |
| 16:44.53 | deva | You seem awefully sure of that :-p |
| 16:44.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2018-03-21 Wed 17:38:22] <DocScrutinizer05> I can only think of logrotate restarting logwatch |
| 16:45.14 | deva | Running logwatch on an empty log should still produce an email, although a vey short one |
| 16:45.16 | KatolaZ | I seem awefully sure that the setup you have described has zero probability to work correctly |
| 16:45.34 | KatolaZ | then, I don;t know logwatch |
| 16:45.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I concur |
| 16:45.41 | KatolaZ | but since it seems to be a perl script |
| 16:45.47 | KatolaZ | you can get a look at it |
| 16:45.53 | KatolaZ | and debug it yourself |
| 16:45.57 | deva | True |
| 16:46.04 | KatolaZ | you will find a |
| 16:46.08 | KatolaZ | while (<>) |
| 16:46.17 | KatolaZ | on the logfile |
| 16:46.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | basically logrotate and logwatch should get serialized |
| 16:46.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | prolly no nice idea to run them concurrently |
| 16:48.10 | deva | logwatch is an acient beast. And since you guy haven't heard of it, are you using somethin newer/better for the log analysis task on your servers? |
| 16:48.17 | deva | *guys |
| 16:48.32 | KatolaZ | deva: you don't need to replace it |
| 16:48.38 | deva | I just installed it on mine because I know it from the old days |
| 16:48.39 | KatolaZ | if it works for you |
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| 16:48.52 | KatolaZ | deva: then no need to switch to anything else |
| 16:48.55 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 16:48.58 | TwistedFate | Hi everyone, does Devuan have TRIM enabled/scheduled by default? |
| 16:49.03 | deva | Well... it kind-of doesn't work :-p |
| 16:49.13 | KatolaZ | just give a try to restarting it in the logrotate post-rotate job |
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| 16:49.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | ideally stop it in pre-logrotate and start it in post-logrotate (if such thing exists) |
| 16:50.31 | deva | I am using the dist shipped package of logwatch, so I guess if the issue is concurrency, then there is an upstream bug that needs fixing ;) |
| 16:50.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | can see how systemd-crond might have messed up that stuff completely |
| 16:51.06 | deva | ... well I am sort of running devuan to /not/ run systemd :p |
| 16:51.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | but you use a upstream logwatch? |
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| 16:51.53 | deva | But you may be right. Perhaps it does work if one runs systemd, which is why "nobody" has encountered this issue |
| 16:52.12 | deva | No, the devuan supplied one |
| 16:52.36 | deva | but if almost nobody uses it, perhaps it really doesn't work, just nobody noticed before |
| 16:52.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | which in the good ole' times might have had a cronjob entry or initscript that took care about stuff, and now is missing thanks systemd madness |
| 16:53.07 | deva | I'll give the postrotate solution a shot. Thanks for the replies :-) |
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| 16:55.09 | nemo | interesting. I'm unfortunately unfamiliar w/ these things on debian, but I still use metalog on my gentoo machine |
| 16:56.03 | nemo | (which uses this package.mask I ran into on a helpful site ð http://m8y.org/tmp/package_mask.txt ) |
| 16:58.52 | KatolaZ | TwistedFate: you should look into /etc/fstab I guess |
| 16:59.07 | KatolaZ | I can't see any "discard" in mine |
| 16:59.22 | KatolaZ | and I guess this should be left to the user |
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| 17:00.21 | KatolaZ | TwistedFate: it's not easy to guess if a drive is an SDD at install time (if this is what you mean) |
| 17:00.54 | KatolaZ | s:SDD:SSD |
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| 17:13.41 | TwistedFate | KatolaZ: discard option in fstab is not advised as it can cause problems |
| 17:13.54 | TwistedFate | periodic trim is more prefereable |
| 17:18.40 | TwistedFate | i've made weekly cronjob for trim https://paste.debian.net/hidden/51bc9dd6/ |
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| 17:31.41 | KatolaZ | TwistedFate: dunno, no SSD over here |
| 17:31.42 | KatolaZ | :) |
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| 18:29.54 | freem_ | Hello. Is there is a way to make devuan forgot the old-style iface names? |
| 18:30.21 | freem_ | to have wlp59s0 instead of wlan0, for example |
| 18:31.47 | freem_ | almost forgot: "grep PRETTY /etc/os-release" ==> PRETTY_NAME="Devuan GNU/Linux ascii/ceres". May be useful. |
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| 18:34.22 | freem_ | Also... I have this annoying behavior: running a different Xorg session often (but not always) closes the 1st one. I'd guess it's related to xorg-legacy, but can't be sure |
| 18:34.57 | golinux | There is a way to reverse the iface naming. Search the dng mail list and dev1galaxy forum |
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| 18:35.20 | golinux | Unfortunately seach has been disabled on botbot |
| 18:35.40 | golinux | freem_: There is a way to reverse the iface naming. Search the dng mail list and dev1galaxy forum |
| 18:36.03 | freem_ | thx golinux. |
| 18:36.53 | KatolaZ | freem_: freem_ |
| 18:36.56 | KatolaZ | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:36.56 | KatolaZ | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:36.56 | KatolaZ | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:36.56 | KatolaZ | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:36.56 | KatolaZ | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:37.06 | golinux | Most everybody here wanted to get back to eth0 |
| 18:37.08 | KatolaZ | freem_: ^^^^ |
| 18:37.30 | golinux | KatolaZ: thanks. I was too lazy to search myself |
| 18:37.48 | n4dir | no eth0 for me. I hardly want an interface name impossible to remember. |
| 18:37.54 | freem_ | well, I have no opinion about which one is the best one, but it makes it easier for me to maintain my single home config for multiple distros :) |
| 18:38.36 | golinux | hi n4dir |
| 18:38.45 | freem_ | KatolaZ, by boot command, you mean it is needed to add this as a kernel parameter? |
| 18:39.35 | n4dir | hi golinux, hi all |
| 18:40.13 | n4dir | to me the switch from ifconfig and all to ip is worse. |
| 18:40.16 | freem_ | n4dir, those names are far better to remember than those cursed UUIDs used in fstab for partition names nowadays (and that I change to use labels instead, manually, on each install...) |
| 18:40.37 | n4dir | oh, yeah. Another good one, the UUID names |
| 18:40.58 | freem_ | the naming problem is not related to ifconfig or ip-*, but to udev. |
| 18:41.12 | n4dir | didn't say that. It only came to my mind |
| 18:41.16 | KatolaZ | freem_: add that option to your boot line |
| 18:41.27 | freem_ | KatolaZ, ok, will try |
| 18:41.37 | KatolaZ | (anyone should have the possibility to choose which behaviour they like) |
| 18:41.52 | KatolaZ | freem_: it depends on the bootloader you are using |
| 18:42.02 | n4dir | linux and choice? living in the past, huh :-) |
| 18:42.36 | freem_ | I'm using syslinux. Easy to setup. |
| 18:42.45 | KatolaZ | great |
| 18:42.59 | KatolaZ | n4dir: nope, I live in the future :P |
| 18:43.09 | KatolaZ | and come back to the past just or fun :D |
| 18:43.19 | n4dir | am in a childish mood, in case no one realized it yet. Just kidding |
| 18:43.23 | KatolaZ | ok freem_ |
| 18:43.29 | KatolaZ | (me too n4dir ;P) |
| 18:43.39 | KatolaZ | I reverted back to xmonad today |
| 18:43.54 | KatolaZ | I will probably never move away in the foreseeable future |
| 18:44.25 | freem_ | I just happen to like i3, despite few things I think could be enhanced. |
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| 18:44.53 | KatolaZ | yes freem_ |
| 18:45.00 | KatolaZ | I found all of those quite similar |
| 18:45.10 | freem_ | which remember me, I should repair my desktop computer to check if support for multiple GPU not built to work together still needs my ugly config hacks |
| 18:45.11 | KatolaZ | just have a tender spot for haskell |
| 18:45.34 | KatolaZ | and sxhkd works very well, tbh |
| 18:45.43 | KatolaZ | which simplifies HK configs |
| 18:45.48 | freem_ | I think xmonad does not allow free placement of windows? |
| 18:45.56 | freem_ | what is sxhkd? |
| 18:46.02 | freem_ | (what an ugly name...) |
| 18:46.18 | KatolaZ | I pronounce it "ESSEX HACKED" |
| 18:46.19 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 18:46.33 | KatolaZ | a hotkey daemon for X |
| 18:46.51 | freem_ | hotkey daemon? Well, why not, I guess. |
| 18:46.53 | KatolaZ | freem_: I don't need free placement on a 12" screen ;) |
| 18:47.01 | freem_ | true enough. |
| 18:47.16 | freem_ | no need for window manager either lol |
| 18:47.29 | KatolaZ | but xmonad supports a floating layout as well |
| 18:47.34 | KatolaZ | freem_: namely |
| 18:47.45 | KatolaZ | my plan is to give a try to wmtools |
| 18:47.48 | KatolaZ | so no wm |
| 18:47.49 | n4dir | i pretty much moved to fully maximized windows, which now often means fullscreen. Hence no problems with such. |
| 18:48.03 | KatolaZ | just a few posix shell scripts |
| 18:48.07 | freem_ | I didn't meant floating mode, I meant placing the windows efficiently but without a hard-coded geometry, if you see what I mean |
| 18:48.15 | KatolaZ | yes freem_ |
| 18:48.17 | KatolaZ | I do :) |
| 18:48.27 | n4dir | that said: i used awesome, but can't say anything about it's possibilities. |
| 18:49.05 | KatolaZ | sorry, I meant wmutils |
| 18:49.10 | KatolaZ | https://github.com/wmutils |
| 18:49.14 | KatolaZ | pretty neat project |
| 18:49.15 | freem_ | I use i3 because it's nice to have multiple windows open to code, and to not rely on a damn rat to do everything |
| 18:49.36 | KatolaZ | freem_: you should give a try to "tabbed", maybe |
| 18:49.48 | freem_ | I sometimes use tabbed mode |
| 18:50.01 | KatolaZ | oki |
| 18:50.07 | KatolaZ | I love it :) |
| 18:50.13 | nemo | freem_: yeeeah, I dunno, alt-tab works pretty well for me, besides the fact that vim and tmux have their own window switching |
| 18:50.22 | KatolaZ | no nemo |
| 18:50.22 | nemo | never had an incentive to learn a new DE |
| 18:50.25 | KatolaZ | https://tools.suckless.org/tabbed/ |
| 18:50.27 | KatolaZ | ;) |
| 18:50.35 | nemo | KatolaZ: ok. what about that? |
| 18:50.50 | freem_ | nemo, alt-tab needs a lot of iterations to move to the correct window |
| 18:50.59 | nemo | freem_: well. I only have about 3 usually ⺠|
| 18:51.06 | nemo | only so many one can have on a screen at once |
| 18:51.12 | KatolaZ | ehehehhe |
| 18:51.18 | KatolaZ | I normally have between 60-90 |
| 18:51.18 | freem_ | ah, this is what you meant, KatolaZ. Suckless tools just does not sucks enough for my use :) |
| 18:51.19 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 18:51.31 | nemo | KatolaZ: 60 to 90 code windows? visible at once? |
| 18:51.40 | KatolaZ | 60-90 windows/terminals |
| 18:51.47 | KatolaZ | not all visible at once |
| 18:51.53 | nemo | KatolaZ: so. I have a ton of terminals. not all of them visible at once. |
| 18:51.57 | KatolaZ | you don't need them to be omni-ptesent |
| 18:51.59 | nemo | but they tend to be for different purposes |
| 18:52.03 | KatolaZ | sure |
| 18:52.05 | freem_ | my average is 3 code windows, but when doing IPC debugging, I can go to a lot |
| 18:52.10 | nemo | so. if I'm actually working on a project on some desktop. then... 3 is about all I usually need |
| 18:52.12 | KatolaZ | and organised in different "tabbed" sessios |
| 18:52.13 | nemo | esp w/ vim/tmux |
| 18:52.15 | KatolaZ | ~sessions |
| 18:52.30 | Digit | hrm, 38 windows/tabs visable. more than expected. more if i switch on 3rd monitor n move to a busy workspace. |
| 18:52.33 | freem_ | I don't master tmux and vim enough honestly |
| 18:52.37 | nemo | and. frankly, I just use mate-terminal that has tabbing just fine |
| 18:52.48 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 18:52.51 | nemo | xterm is kinda limited unfortunately |
| 18:52.56 | KatolaZ | is it? |
| 18:53.13 | KatolaZ | well, if you need transparency, yes, xterm is limited |
| 18:53.20 | freem_ | I prefer urxvt, personnally, and disable the tabbing inside it since i3 does it far better |
| 18:53.22 | nemo | KatolaZ: unicode is mostly where it fails |
| 18:53.35 | KatolaZ | don't use unicode much |
| 18:53.43 | KatolaZ | but the support has improved recently, IMHO |
| 18:54.22 | freem_ | urxvtc/d are nice on very light machines. |
| 18:54.42 | KatolaZ | freem_: i have used urxvt as well |
| 18:55.03 | nemo | KatolaZ: just tried xterm again and was the usual fail |
| 18:55.04 | freem_ | I could build a system consuming less than 70M on debian jessie, without any recompilation, and with all the comfort I need |
| 18:55.15 | nemo | KatolaZ: it isn't very good at fallback fonts - actually AFAIK that's something it doesn't attempt at all |
| 18:55.21 | nemo | either the glyph is in your defined font or you are SOL |
| 18:55.37 | freem_ | 70M of ram, I mean, with terminals launched, music playing, xosview, etc. |
| 18:55.45 | KatolaZ | yep freem_ |
| 18:55.53 | nemo | and I like the mate-terminal profile stuff |
| 18:56.13 | freem_ | profile-stuff? |
| 18:56.31 | Leander | is there any reason to prefer urxvtc/d over tmux? |
| 18:56.31 | nemo | freem_: heh. Up until about 2010... 2012ish I actually used my laptop with 96MiB of RAM - it even ran seamonkey ⺠|
| 18:56.59 | freem_ | nemo: nice! |
| 18:57.47 | KatolaZ | I guess we couldn't start a "modern" browser in less than 1G nowadays :( |
| 18:57.48 | nemo | freem_: I ran gentoo on it - was only machine I ever used -Os to compile |
| 18:57.49 | freem_ | Leander, I don't know, except that tmux does the same thing than the window manager, so, more stuff to learn for the human |
| 18:58.00 | nemo | KatolaZ: ehhh firefox ran fine on my first gen raspberry pi |
| 18:58.10 | KatolaZ | well, 4 years ago |
| 18:58.13 | nemo | KatolaZ: firefox has always been awesome in memory constrained environments. far far far better than chrome |
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| 18:58.18 | freem_ | KatolaZ, it depends on if you want JS or not. |
| 18:58.20 | nemo | KatolaZ: esp since the memshrink project |
| 18:58.26 | nemo | freem_: yeah. that's the usual gotcha |
| 18:58.30 | nemo | so many stupid sites out there |
| 18:58.40 | KatolaZ | freem_: true |
| 18:58.58 | nemo | KatolaZ: actually. I installed firefox custom not the raspbian default since memshrink was just taking off at the time |
| 18:59.05 | freem_ | yes. On the other hand, just checked today: empty firefox, 2 tabs, 500MiB consumed in the ps's rss. |
| 18:59.07 | nemo | KatolaZ: and installing a newer firefox dramatically improved memory usage on the pi |
| 18:59.17 | nemo | freem_: that depends entirely on how much memory your system has |
| 18:59.21 | nemo | freem_: you can tune their defaults |
| 18:59.28 | KatolaZ | nemo: the problem is that compiling firefox requires 10 times compiling a kernel... |
| 18:59.32 | freem_ | more than 2G on rsz of course (but this is not relevant) |
| 18:59.33 | KatolaZ | that's just silly, IMHO |
| 18:59.54 | KatolaZ | btween 2009-2012 I just used links2 |
| 18:59.55 | nemo | KatolaZ: true... on the other hand my one gentoo server is still able to compile seamonkey in a gig of RAM (admittedly with some swap thrashing, but bearable) |
| 18:59.59 | KatolaZ | on a fb-only machine |
| 18:59.59 | nemo | chrome that would be laughable |
| 19:00.05 | nemo | KatolaZ: I still use w3m heavily! it's awesome |
| 19:00.10 | freem_ | nemo, you mean firefox takes a percentage of the free ram, no matter what it does? Sounds stupid! |
| 19:00.19 | nemo | KatolaZ: 27 tabs currently open |
| 19:00.22 | KatolaZ | yes nemo, it's "modern" websites that suck |
| 19:00.25 | nemo | freem_: browsers are basically a VM nowdays |
| 19:00.36 | nemo | freem_: the memory is allocated to internal memory pools for caching various things |
| 19:00.49 | nemo | freem_: so they don't have to lag requesting for it later |
| 19:01.00 | nemo | freem_: users demand snappyness. only way to get snappy is to preallocate |
| 19:01.15 | KatolaZ | only way to get snappy is to remove cruft |
| 19:01.15 | freem_ | I'm not sure this is smart. |
| 19:01.23 | KatolaZ | instead of adding more, IMHO |
| 19:01.48 | KatolaZ | i tried a "latest" GNOME desktop on a machine at work |
| 19:01.52 | KatolaZ | yesterday |
| 19:01.55 | nemo | KatolaZ: that's what they've been doing yeah. |
| 19:01.56 | KatolaZ | seriously man |
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| 19:02.04 | KatolaZ | that's AWFUL |
| 19:02.28 | freem_ | just wondering... which MUA are you using, guys? mutt? |
| 19:02.31 | KatolaZ | gigabytes and gigabytes wasted for NOTHING |
| 19:02.35 | nemo | KatolaZ: time to pull out https://l3net.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/cmp-all4.png again ⺠|
| 19:02.40 | KatolaZ | ahahahahha |
| 19:02.54 | KatolaZ | that's a but dated nemo, right? |
| 19:02.57 | nemo | freem_: I'm using (al)pine but that's only because I started on that back in '96 and I'm too lazy to change all my configs |
| 19:03.05 | nemo | KatolaZ: yes. I'm sure the situation is even worse now ð |
| 19:03.12 | KatolaZ | I am on mutt |
| 19:03.18 | KatolaZ | left alpine many years ago |
| 19:03.33 | freem_ | nemo: this means xfce consumes more than mate? Surprising? |
| 19:04.15 | freem_ | I never took time to learn using mutt... |
| 19:04.25 | KatolaZ | freem_: depends a lot on the set of plugins and panel-sweeties you have, I guess |
| 19:04.29 | nemo | freem_: doesn't surprise me enormously |
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| 19:04.45 | nemo | https://l3net.wordpress.com/2013/03/17/a-memory-comparison-of-light-linux-desktops/ note this is the updated version of his chart |
| 19:04.53 | nemo | blog post 2013 then reran tests based on feedback after |
| 19:04.58 | nemo | 2014 |
| 19:05.47 | freem_ | in my memory, xfce was lighter than gnome 2, and mate and cinnamon are, IIRC, forks of this? |
| 19:05.55 | nemo | freem_: that was a long time ago |
| 19:05.58 | freem_ | more or less (one is not, but...) |
| 19:06.00 | nemo | freem_: they kept tacking stuff on |
| 19:06.06 | nemo | freem_: mate has advantage of a more unified core I think |
| 19:06.19 | nemo | mate is basically gnome2 yes |
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| 19:08.31 | freem_ | nemo, I only remember xfce 4.6 to 4.10, I think, it was my starts on linux, then I discovered i3 and removed tools requiring the mouse |
| 19:08.54 | nemo | freem_: BTW, if you're ever wondering what firefox is doing with memory about:memory gives the rundown |
| 19:09.28 | nemo | about:performance is helpful too. esp in multiprocess firefox |
| 19:09.38 | freem_ | to be honest, I don't really mind firefox, I'm waiting for the otter's first stable realease |
| 19:10.13 | freem_ | when it'll arrive, I'll check the source to see what it does, and I'll decide about what stuff to use as my main browser. |
| 19:10.49 | freem_ | firefox... I tried to compile it by disabling stuff.... not only the code is ugly, the compilation system is broken, too. |
| 19:11.02 | nemo | shrugs |
| 19:11.07 | nemo | never had any trouble there honestly |
| 19:11.14 | nemo | but then. haven't tried disabling stuff |
| 19:11.19 | nemo | only ever compiled it to run a bisect |
| 19:11.21 | freem_ | I just tried to have a minimal build. |
| 19:11.59 | freem_ | and just disable stuff makes it not compile. Or at least, did, few years ago. WHich means, broken system. |
| 19:12.20 | KatolaZ | noworries freem_ |
| 19:12.25 | KatolaZ | they will reimplement it in rust |
| 19:12.26 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 19:12.29 | freem_ | haha |
| 19:12.46 | freem_ | honestly, it might be a good idea, since it would imply removing a broken system |
| 19:13.11 | KatolaZ | https://www.infoworld.com/article/3165424/web-browsers/mozilla-binds-firefoxs-fate-to-the-rust-language.html |
| 19:13.13 | freem_ | about rust... I should give it a try, someday |
| 19:13.24 | KatolaZ | it will require them 20 years, I guess |
| 19:14.15 | nemo | KatolaZ: they've already replaced some surprisingly big pieces with rust |
| 19:14.20 | freem_ | I don't really know what to think about rust |
| 19:14.49 | KatolaZ | nemo: and the result is that the last 10 versions of firefox have become slower and less stable |
| 19:15.01 | nemo | ? |
| 19:15.02 | KatolaZ | I hate when firefox says "gaash! YOUR tab has crashed" |
| 19:15.11 | KatolaZ | man it *your* tab, not mie |
| 19:15.11 | nemo | KatolaZ: huh. I haven't had that happen in ages |
| 19:15.26 | KatolaZ | and crashes every time I put the laptop in suspend |
| 19:15.29 | nemo | it used to happen to me with graphics acceleration on my old work computer using the ati driver |
| 19:15.30 | KatolaZ | every single time |
| 19:15.34 | nemo | since I switched to the FOSS one it stopped |
| 19:15.36 | KatolaZ | no nemo |
| 19:15.42 | KatolaZ | intel i915 |
| 19:15.46 | nemo | shrugs |
| 19:15.51 | nemo | I suspend my laptop too. no issues |
| 19:15.53 | KatolaZ | and started crashing with the "new" editions |
| 19:15.56 | freem_ | YMMV I guess |
| 19:16.06 | nemo | check your driver p'raps |
| 19:16.12 | KatolaZ | I use it only when something does not work in surf2 |
| 19:16.13 | nemo | or turn off graphics acceleration in browser |
| 19:16.22 | KatolaZ | nemo: how is this related? |
| 19:16.25 | nemo | since surf2 probably doesn't use graphics acceleration anyway |
| 19:16.29 | freem_ | surf2? |
| 19:16.30 | KatolaZ | I normally visualise almost blank pages |
| 19:16.39 | KatolaZ | with no graphics and no video |
| 19:16.39 | nemo | KatolaZ: gonna guess buggy driver is freeing memory that it shouldn't |
| 19:16.41 | buZz | webkit? webkit totally does afaik |
| 19:16.46 | freem_ | surf rings some bells, but, surf2? |
| 19:16.46 | KatolaZ | and it still manages to crash |
| 19:16.57 | KatolaZ | freem_: surf2 is surf |
| 19:16.58 | nemo | KatolaZ: as I said, try turning off graphics accel in browser |
| 19:17.02 | KatolaZ | with webkitgtk2 |
| 19:17.05 | nemo | that's the vast majority of browser crashes on linux |
| 19:17.12 | nemo | you can check in about:crashes if you want to debug tho |
| 19:17.24 | KatolaZ | nemo: why it comes enabled by default if it crashes stuff? |
| 19:17.27 | KatolaZ | :\ |
| 19:17.33 | nemo | KatolaZ: they maintain a blacklist of unreliable drivers |
| 19:17.37 | nemo | KatolaZ: that blacklist can be hit or miss |
| 19:17.39 | freem_ | heh. so, suckless guys have surf2 and uzbl? |
| 19:17.40 | nemo | chrome does this too |
| 19:17.53 | nemo | KatolaZ: something like your suspend might not have been caught in testing. dunno |
| 19:18.00 | nemo | KatolaZ: anyway. can't hurt to check this - and about:crashes too |
| 19:18.09 | nemo | layers.acceleration.disabled;true is the about:config setting I think |
| 19:20.11 | freem_ | hum... maybe one of you will know... I am searching for a software that runs in terminals, is interactive, and aims to select nodes of a tree? |
| 19:21.11 | freem_ | when I say, select, it's just that: it would generate a list of the selected nodes when the human finished it's work. Just that. |
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| 19:22.51 | freem_ | I started to write one, but time and motivation are not always present together... in practice, this would be the base to build a package manager faster than aptitude and that could work with stuff that are not .deb packages. |
| 19:22.51 | nemo | freem_: if you're looking for ncurses gui-like interaction for like a shellscript. dialog seems like the natural choice |
| 19:22.58 | nemo | or whiptail |
| 19:23.48 | nemo | http://invisible-island.net/dialog/dialog-figures.html |
| 19:23.49 | freem_ | I admit I didn't tried to read theirs docs, but it's because scripting a tree does not seems easy to me |
| 19:23.57 | nemo | tree is on there |
| 19:24.55 | freem_ | hum. Interesting, I didn't knew it was that advanced |
| 19:25.16 | nemo | --treeview text height width list-height [ tag item status depth ] ... |
| 19:25.19 | nemo | seems pretty simple |
| 19:25.31 | nemo | Display data organized as a tree. Each group of data contains a tag, the text to display for the item, its sttus ("on" or "off") and the depth of the item in the tree. |
| 19:25.35 | nemo | I'm RTFMing btw |
| 19:26.06 | nemo | hmmm only one item at a time? well that's fail |
| 19:26.21 | nemo | wonder if whiptail does better |
| 19:27.13 | freem_ | what worries me is more the sorting and filtering of the data, more than showing it |
| 19:27.50 | nemo | why? |
| 19:28.29 | freem_ | because I'm more used to C++ than to sh :) |
| 19:28.47 | nemo | ah. sorting and filtering text are kinda shellscript's forté |
| 19:28.52 | freem_ | so I have absolutely no idea about how to do that |
| 19:29.00 | freem_ | of nodes? |
| 19:29.04 | nemo | http://thegoldenmule.com/blog/2014/09/no-faberge-eggs-just-brass-balls/ |
| 19:29.29 | nemo | freem_: well lists is ideal, but ofc you'd flatten |
| 19:29.44 | nemo | freem_: btw, since you brought up C++ *and* rust, you might enjoy kyren's AMA on reddit |
| 19:29.47 | nemo | it was pretty awesome |
| 19:29.56 | nemo | my fav part was where she discovers *why* rust is so pedantic about floats |
| 19:30.27 | nemo | (i.e. UB in C++, and not just academic UB, but "you just caused an OOBE" |
| 19:30.28 | nemo | ) |
| 19:30.37 | nemo | or memory corruption |
| 19:30.44 | nemo | don't think you even get an exception. let me dig it up |
| 19:31.06 | nemo | https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/78bowa/hey_this_is_kyren_from_chucklefish_we_make_and/ |
| 19:31.33 | freem_ | I know the weaknesses of C++ |
| 19:32.06 | n4dir | what do you mean with "nodes" when it comes to the tree? |
| 19:32.06 | nemo | https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/78bowa/hey_this_is_kyren_from_chucklefish_we_make_and/dot6uxk/ this was my fav |
| 19:32.11 | freem_ | It's why I avoid floats every time I can, and no longer use exceptions, but some custom stuff to return data |
| 19:32.53 | n4dir | to put it different, by which means do you want to "select" |
| 19:33.42 | freem_ | n4dir, in short, what aptitude does, it allowing the user to walk over a list of packages, packages that link to other ones. So, I think it's, in fact, a tree of nodes (packages) containing several pairs of key/value. |
| 19:34.07 | n4dir | ah. |
| 19:34.22 | freem_ | unfortunately, aptitude is bloated, and the code I have read really hard to take a grasp on, so I don't feel good enough to fork it |
| 19:34.34 | n4dir | what about "case" of bash? |
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| 19:35.03 | freem_ | also, aptitude can only manage dpkg packages. |
| 19:36.08 | freem_ | if I write a tool aiming to fix the problems, I think it could be a good idea to make it as generic as possible, so that if later someone needs almost the same thing for something totally unrelated, he would be able to reuse the tool, add some scripts and go. |
| 19:36.21 | freem_ | in short: do one thing. |
| 19:37.16 | freem_ | don't take me wrong: aptitude is a wonderful tool. Wonderful enough to make me wish to be able to use with other distros, but the porting would be too hard |
| 19:39.15 | freem_ | well, I guess I'll just have to continue to try to reach my goal :) |
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| 19:42.27 | drawkula | netbsd with apt(itude) would be a dream |
| 19:42.30 | drawkula | :-P |
| 19:42.49 | Digit | hi. think this is safe to do in devuan?: echo madvise >/sys/kernel/mm/transparent_hugepage/enabled |
| 19:45.18 | Digit | looking at https://techoverflow.net/2013/08/01/checking-if-hugepages-are-enabled-in-linux/ and even considering "never" instead of "madvise" |
| 19:48.11 | freem_ | drawkula, I have to say, I would name that eventual software inapt, but sometimes hesitate with inept, not sure which one would be the best, considering the fact I do not intend it to have as many features as aptitude (determine how to fix things? This broke my system often enough to make me disable that crap everytime) |
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| 20:43.31 | edbarx | (ASCII) eudev --configure fails with dpkg getting -1 from subprocess. |
| 20:44.02 | edbarx | Err, no. Error is 1. |
| 20:46.06 | freem_ | edbarx, you mean, when updating eudev? |
| 20:48.39 | edbarx | I also did "apt-get -f install" to correct the problem getting the same result I got when I did "apt-get upgrade" |
| 20:50.42 | edbarx | I have udev version installed: 1:3.2.2+devuan2.10 |
| 20:54.06 | freem_ | so, eudev is dowloaded, but not installed, but high level tools do not speak a lot about what the problem is. Can you try to do "#dpkg -i /var/cache/apt/archive/the_most_recent_version_of_eudev"? |
| 20:54.55 | freem_ | oh. The # means it must be done as root, and "the_most_etc" is the filename of the archive to install |
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| 21:00.20 | edbarx | "dpkg -i package.deb" is a low level installation of package. I will select the package from the archive list and do what you said. I don't assume I need to use the 'force' parameter with dpkg. |
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| 21:06.28 | freem_ | edbarx, dpkg -i is what apt and aptitude does after the wget, but it might telle more things since higher level tools since those might redirect stderr |
| 21:08.04 | freem_ | and apt, aptitude, etc, do the wget of the packages in /var/cache/apt/archive. This might be of some use for you the day you will be in a quite dirty situation like no network working :) |
| 21:10.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | what's needed to further etnaviv? |
| 21:11.36 | edbarx | dpkg-reconfigure eudev also fails due to package eudev not fully installed |
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| 21:24.24 | d9867eb | hi, my time on my devuan is one hour too early. How do I change this? |
| 21:24.52 | fsmithred | d9867eb, 'dpkg-reconfigure tzdata' |
| 21:25.27 | fsmithred | or else use ntpdate or ntp to sync with a time server |
| 21:26.42 | d9867eb | fsmithred: thanks |
| 21:27.44 | d9867eb | fsmithred: what is the best browser in Devuan? |
| 21:28.04 | fsmithred | there has been no best browser since firefox 3.x |
| 21:28.20 | d9867eb | I have Firefox installed but I heard they collect data |
| 21:28.37 | merzbow | you can turn that off d9767eb |
| 21:28.58 | unixman | Sure there has been a best browser! elinks! :) |
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| 21:29.25 | d9867eb | unixman: now I would like to watch Plex in HD |
| 21:29.28 | fsmithred | I like lynx better, but only because I already know it. |
| 21:29.41 | fsmithred | links2 is cool - you can run it in graphical mode |
| 21:30.01 | unixman | fsmithred, yeah, that is pretty cool. |
| 21:30.05 | merzbow | firefox-esr is the branch of firefox before quantum which is decent, there's also qubes, w3m, dillo but these don't support a lot of modern javascript (that can be a good or a bad thing) |
| 21:30.11 | d9867eb | when it comes to terminal browsers, i prefer w3m because it is the only one i tested |
| 21:30.31 | unixman | looks for this movie called Plex :> |
| 21:32.02 | d9867eb | merzbow: i generally dislike javascript but some sites that i reguraly visit use it heavily |
| 21:32.29 | d9867eb | unixman: it is a self hosted movie service, not a movie |
| 21:32.32 | NewGnuGuy | #MakeTheWebHTMLAgain |
| 21:32.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | +1 |
| 21:32.52 | freem_ | about browsers, unixman, d9867eb, fsmithred, there are also, uzbl, dillo, netsurf. Each have their problems, but I doubt they try to track people, at least. |
| 21:33.18 | fsmithred | midori is pretty good. |
| 21:33.43 | d9867eb | freem_: i remember downloading netsurf and it wouldnt run. |
| 21:33.51 | unixman | d9867eb, I know what it is. I was being facetious. :) |
| 21:33.55 | freem_ | midori is... good? meh. not with debian's default gtk theme, at least |
| 21:34.45 | freem_ | fact is, goodness does not exists: there are only wishes, more or less fulfilled by some softwares :) |
| 21:34.58 | d9867eb | i used otter before. really good browser but not in debian repos. |
| 21:35.24 | freem_ | otter is slowly reaching version 1.0, I also have some hopes in this one |
| 21:35.32 | d9867eb | I wish someone would make a package |
| 21:35.41 | d9867eb | of otter |
| 21:35.42 | freem_ | not before 1.0 |
| 21:36.04 | d9867eb | freem_: what happens then? |
| 21:36.31 | unixman | d9867eb, I have Plex for Android and use that on my tablet attached to the large screen TV with HDMI. I've not tried to use it on a regular PC. |
| 21:36.39 | freem_ | 1.0 version is the 1st stable version, the 1st version you can hope things won't break between each releases |
| 21:37.16 | freem_ | for a ditribution aiming on stability, it's quite important |
| 21:37.29 | d9867eb | freem_: aha, so then a package for debian would be a possibilty? |
| 21:37.47 | freem_ | I see no reason why it would not. |
| 21:38.14 | freem_ | but you have to remember another important thing: release cycle |
| 21:38.50 | freem_ | in practice, using debian means you may only have stable releases that are, on average, 1 year old. |
| 21:39.15 | freem_ | devuan may differ, but I doubt it |
| 21:39.22 | d9867eb | ok |
| 21:39.48 | freem_ | are you using stable, testing or unstable version? |
| 21:40.29 | freem_ | of devuan, i mean |
| 21:40.37 | d9867eb | i am using stable with backports on my servers and ceres on my desktop. |
| 21:40.58 | *** join/#devuan pillepalle (~Thunderbi@ip-109-90-187-181.hsi11.unitymediagroup.de) |
| 21:41.19 | d9867eb | Devuan stable and testing have issues with my screen that seem to have been solved in ceres. |
| 21:41.27 | freem_ | on servers, you'll have to wait for a new web browser to come in, but, hey, no interest there I'd say? |
| 21:41.43 | d9867eb | freem_: i agree |
| 21:42.07 | d9867eb | i am planning on buying a laptop and putting devuan testing on it |
| 21:42.43 | *** join/#devuan TemporalBeing1 (~Ben_Meyer@172-6-231-225.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net) |
| 21:42.52 | freem_ | for ceres, well, it's testing, so, if the scheme is the same as for debian testing, you would need to wait at least 6 weaks after a package enters unstable, and i do not remember how many times afther the arrival in experimental it happens |
| 21:43.10 | freem_ | on the other hand |
| 21:43.22 | KatolaZ | freem_: ceres is unstable, not testing |
| 21:43.23 | d9867eb | freem_: right now there is server software that i am hyped about |
| 21:43.31 | freem_ | oh? Sorry then |
| 21:43.31 | d9867eb | there is no |
| 21:44.14 | freem_ | otter-browser devs do offer an AppImage of the tool, that is statically built against most libs, and so usable on most glibc6 based systems |
| 21:44.21 | freem_ | with few dependencies |
| 21:45.04 | freem_ | I tried it few times on devuan, can't remember the running issues or the dependencies, but they where quick to fix for me |
| 21:45.07 | d9867eb | freem_: oh yeah, i know but i dislike appimage, snap, flatpak etc and i prefer not use them |
| 21:45.49 | freem_ | and I agree with you, it's better to avoid that, but, to give some feedback to fellow devs, it's an interesting tool |
| 21:46.12 | freem_ | never in prod, but for tests, it's ok. |
| 21:46.45 | freem_ | also, you forgot docket :) |
| 21:46.48 | freem_ | docker |
| 21:47.34 | unixman | https://github.com/netvarun/docket |
| 21:48.35 | freem_ | unixman: lol, it was a typo, but I just so love the image on the readme |
| 21:48.45 | unixman | :) |
| 21:49.04 | d9867eb | ok |
| 21:49.55 | *** join/#devuan IoFran (~Thunderbi@189.231.114.2) |
| 21:50.52 | freem_ | anyway, about otter-browser, I think it might be a very good tool when it'll be ready, but I would not expect it to be in official Debian's repos until the next stable version if we are lucky. |
| 21:51.29 | d9867eb | freem_: ok, until then would it be ok to install from ppa? |
| 21:51.42 | freem_ | considering the fact that devuan's statted goal is to follow debian, it'll take more time, so do not expect it until at least 2 years |
| 21:52.03 | NewGnuGuy | The World Wide Web Sucks https://youtube.com/watch?v=tefielQeHZY |
| 21:52.16 | freem_ | d9867eb: ppas? I thought you did not liked stuff installeds from unreliable sources? |
| 21:52.22 | d9867eb | NewGnuGuy: that is lunduke right |
| 21:52.24 | d9867eb | ? |
| 21:52.24 | KatolaZ | freem_: ? |
| 21:52.36 | NewGnuGuy | d9867eb: yes |
| 21:52.39 | KatolaZ | beowulf will be probably installable shortly after ascii stable is out |
| 21:52.42 | freem_ | KatolaZ, ? |
| 21:53.06 | KatolaZ | beowulf will be merging buster, the next Debian stable (current testing) |
| 21:53.33 | d9867eb | KatolaZ: ascii will be out when buster is out, right? |
| 21:53.40 | KatolaZ | d9867eb: no |
| 21:53.42 | freem_ | what is the time difference between a debian's version and a merge from devuan? |
| 21:53.46 | KatolaZ | ascii is merging stretch |
| 21:53.49 | KatolaZ | and will be out very soon |
| 21:53.54 | KatolaZ | (the beta is already out) |
| 21:53.55 | d9867eb | KatolaZ: aha ok |
| 21:54.03 | KatolaZ | freem_: ? |
| 21:54.07 | KatolaZ | what do you mean? |
| 21:54.14 | KatolaZ | the Debian version is merged in real time |
| 21:54.19 | d9867eb | KatolaZ: very soon? like a month? |
| 21:54.29 | KatolaZ | d9867eb: very soon, like when it's ready |
| 21:54.34 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 21:54.37 | freem_ | when Debian release a stable version, how many times does it takes to devuan to release the equivalent? It's synced? |
| 21:54.46 | KatolaZ | freem_: it depends |
| 21:54.53 | KatolaZ | for jessie it took almost 2 years |
| 21:55.02 | freem_ | yeah, but it was the initial fork |
| 21:55.12 | freem_ | I was on the mailing list :) |
| 21:55.17 | KatolaZ | for ascii (stretch) we are at 9 months still |
| 21:55.27 | KatolaZ | so we might be under 1 year |
| 21:55.31 | freem_ | ok |
| 21:55.45 | KatolaZ | for beowulf we might be able to catch up, or to shrink the gap |
| 21:56.18 | freem_ | so, add to that fact the fact that otter browser is still not stable, and so, will not be integrated in debian soon, my estimate of 2 years does not seems that bad |
| 21:56.20 | KatolaZ | we'll see |
| 21:56.34 | d9867eb | I think I will switch to beowulf on desktop whem it is released |
| 21:56.45 | KatolaZ | according to the well-informed ones, Devuan should have been dead three years ago |
| 21:56.54 | freem_ | haha, yes |
| 21:57.09 | freem_ | I'll be honest, I was one of the many who had a lot of doubts |
| 21:57.36 | KatolaZ | happy Devuan has proven you wrong then :P |
| 21:57.49 | d9867eb | to be honest, I wasnt running Linux when Devuan started. |
| 21:58.06 | freem_ | heh, I'm just a pessimist guy on such things, I've always had hope, but no trust |
| 21:58.15 | d9867eb | KatolaZ: i am happy about that oo |
| 21:58.17 | d9867eb | too |
| 21:58.22 | KatolaZ | freem_: pessimism does not solve problems |
| 21:58.26 | freem_ | true |
| 21:58.27 | KatolaZ | working on them actually helps |
| 21:58.29 | KatolaZ | ;) |
| 21:58.38 | freem_ | and you guys proved it. |
| 21:58.44 | KatolaZ | (and it's a pessimist speaking over here) |
| 21:59.07 | KatolaZ | Devuan proved it, freem_ |
| 21:59.15 | *** part/#devuan Oldmoss (~Oldmoss@46.246.39.55) |
| 21:59.42 | freem_ | on the other hand, even if devuan is better imho than debian, it's still not my ideal tool, so I'll continue to try to build the ones I lack. |
| 22:00.25 | freem_ | I wonder... have devuan the project to revive the multikernel arch system debian had? |
| 22:00.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | I've got no chance but I will ruthlessly use it |
| 22:00.53 | freem_ | I mean, there was a project to have bsd kernels running under debian |
| 22:01.05 | golinux | <d9867eb> freem_: ok, until then would it be ok to install from ppa? |
| 22:01.25 | golinux | REALLY not a good idea. |
| 22:01.41 | d9867eb | what desktop environments / tiling window managers do you guys use? |
| 22:01.47 | freem_ | golinux, I think I replyed about that? But I'm not an otter dev anyway, I'm not skilled enough to do a web browser |
| 22:02.02 | freem_ | i3+urxvt+zsh here |
| 22:02.03 | golinux | Me either |
| 22:02.08 | d9867eb | golinux: ok ok |
| 22:02.10 | KatolaZ | freem_: we need people to work on that |
| 22:02.38 | freem_ | KatolaZ, is it just a matter of compiling stuff? |
| 22:02.51 | KatolaZ | not exactly, tbh |
| 22:02.54 | freem_ | Imean, of making things compiling |
| 22:03.06 | KatolaZ | it's more about maintaining patches |
| 22:03.14 | KatolaZ | and syncing upstream |
| 22:03.32 | KatolaZ | most users complain about old packages in Devuan |
| 22:03.44 | KatolaZ | (well, a few of them, tbh) |
| 22:04.01 | freem_ | KatolaZ, I think rebasing on a cleaner libc would be a good 1st step for that |
| 22:04.05 | KatolaZ | the main problem there is that removing systemd deps and maintaining the forks costs time |
| 22:04.15 | KatolaZ | freem_: that's crazy :) |
| 22:04.20 | d9867eb | KatolaZ: what forks? |
| 22:04.22 | KatolaZ | would mean rebuid everything :) |
| 22:04.26 | freem_ | not that cracy |
| 22:04.39 | KatolaZ | freem_: do you know how many packages are available in ASCII> |
| 22:04.40 | KatolaZ | ? |
| 22:04.49 | freem_ | if you wan't to support another kernel, I don't see any other whay than recompiling anything anyway |
| 22:05.04 | freem_ | nope, I do not |
| 22:05.13 | KatolaZ | freem_: that's why I think it's not Devuan's priority at the moment |
| 22:05.21 | KatolaZ | freem_: ascii has 52289 packages |
| 22:05.31 | KatolaZ | (+-150) |
| 22:05.33 | freem_ | when I was silently moderated on debian i18N mailing list, I just leaved the place |
| 22:06.08 | d9867eb | freem_: leaved = left ? |
| 22:06.20 | freem_ | and must admit I have not tried to contribute in helping people anew in i18n community |
| 22:06.29 | KatolaZ | sorry for that freem_ |
| 22:06.46 | KatolaZ | btw, if you are interested in alternative libc, void linux has musl |
| 22:06.50 | freem_ | yes d9867eb. Sorry, english not my native language |
| 22:07.14 | freem_ | KatolaZ, this computer is a dual boot: devuan / void+musl :) |
| 22:07.24 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 22:07.36 | d9867eb | freem_: not mine either. sorry |
| 22:07.42 | freem_ | I intend to write an interactive package manager that support both, in ncurses, for that reason |
| 22:08.12 | KatolaZ | good luck freem_ :) |
| 22:08.13 | freem_ | something I can use through ssh, or on a tty, that is fast and does not try to guess my intents |
| 22:08.38 | freem_ | luck is not the problem :) |
| 22:08.41 | d9867eb | KatolaZ: Is Void good? |
| 22:08.53 | KatolaZ | (BTW: void has aboud 5000 packages <- freem_ ) |
| 22:08.57 | KatolaZ | dunno d9867eb |
| 22:09.09 | freem_ | d9867eb, void is fast as light, but it's a rolling release |
| 22:09.12 | KatolaZ | tried it in a vM |
| 22:09.16 | KatolaZ | it's different |
| 22:09.17 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 22:09.23 | KatolaZ | not in a bad way |
| 22:09.27 | KatolaZ | but it's not Debian |
| 22:09.42 | merzbow | void is pretty decent but I had a tough time installing it on my bare metal |
| 22:10.01 | KatolaZ | I guess 95% of the current Devuan users would not find themselves at home in void |
| 22:10.10 | freem_ | with void, you have a higher risk of breaking everything at each update, since it's rolling release. But, unlike arch, I had no problem doing that. |
| 22:10.14 | d9867eb | freem_: well, i run ceres now so |
| 22:10.25 | KatolaZ | d9867eb: it's not even closely comparable |
| 22:10.40 | d9867eb | KatolaZ: void is worse? |
| 22:10.55 | KatolaZ | ceres in comparison is a "stable", slow-moving sliggish slug |
| 22:11.03 | KatolaZ | it's rolling release |
| 22:11.13 | KatolaZ | you can break things badly |
| 22:11.15 | KatolaZ | really badly |
| 22:11.15 | freem_ | Also, depending on the version of void you intend to use, you might just have a limited system if you are not native english. MuslC does not handle i18n IIRC |
| 22:11.25 | d9867eb | KatolaZ: isnt ceres rolling too? |
| 22:11.35 | KatolaZ | well, no |
| 22:11.37 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 22:11.40 | merzbow | I think the GuixSD project is awesome for that -- installs never break apparently & it confronts dependency issues by keeping a local hash of packages |
| 22:11.45 | KatolaZ | packages in ceres have to work with the rest |
| 22:11.47 | d9867eb | KatolaZ: I ran Gentoo too |
| 22:11.55 | KatolaZ | otherwise they don't get it |
| 22:12.19 | d9867eb | ok |
| 22:12.26 | freem_ | merzbow, I never had any issue other than the limitations of muslc on my void install |
| 22:12.50 | KatolaZ | freem_: void install and packaging system is not exactly for beginners |
| 22:13.06 | KatolaZ | the insaller is nice and tidy, but pretty spartan |
| 22:13.18 | KatolaZ | I like it, but I guess I am again in the minoriry |
| 22:13.23 | KatolaZ | ~minority |
| 22:13.24 | d9867eb | is there a decent a distro that aint rolling with musl support? |
| 22:13.44 | KatolaZ | d9867eb: why do you need musl? |
| 22:13.44 | freem_ | d9867eb, also, in void, a pure rolling release, packages are almost just a build of upstream sources, which can lead to differences in terms of integration. For example, i3blocks will have different and so incompatible configs |
| 22:14.28 | freem_ | KatolaZ, true, but the installation is not something I consider being my daily task |
| 22:14.57 | KatolaZ | freem_: if the installation fails, you don't have a daily task :D |
| 22:15.09 | freem_ | d9867eb, maybe alpine, or other distros targetting really limited hardware. But, remember that then you'll have other limitations. |
| 22:15.15 | d9867eb | KatolaZ: I think it would be pretty cool to test it and I think I could use some minimal libc on some small systems. |
| 22:15.19 | freem_ | KatolaZ, true enough |
| 22:16.11 | freem_ | d9867eb, muslc is the most minimalistic and standard conformant libc I know about that have at least some distros built on it |
| 22:16.51 | freem_ | I think porting a tool to a bloatless libc is the 1st step to achieve true portability |
| 22:17.10 | d9867eb | freem_: is gentoo a pure rolling release too? |
| 22:17.12 | freem_ | the 1st *major* step, I mean. |
| 22:17.14 | KatolaZ | freem_: Debian runs on 21 hw platforms, and has glibc :) |
| 22:17.30 | KatolaZ | don't get me wrong: I consider musl a great effort |
| 22:17.37 | freem_ | KatolaZ, yes, but ports does not mean portability. |
| 22:17.43 | KatolaZ | but that's not the point for portability |
| 22:18.01 | KatolaZ | portability needs developers |
| 22:18.04 | freem_ | d9867eb, I do not know gentoo enough to speak. |
| 22:18.13 | KatolaZ | and costs energy, time, and effort |
| 22:18.18 | KatolaZ | whatever library you use |
| 22:18.27 | freem_ | KatolaZ, no, portability implies it is possible to port, not that port is already done |
| 22:19.16 | freem_ | and staying as close as possible to standards, with extensions disabled by default, is a great step to portability that glibc forgot. |
| 22:20.21 | freem_ | but yes, porting still requires time, efforts, money and skills, you are true |
| 22:20.49 | d9867eb | freem_: I actually I thought of installing Void instead of Devuan. After what you told me, I think it was a good choice that I didnt since I broken my Debian installs before. |
| 22:21.40 | freem_ | d9867eb, I think the best thing to do is to have more that one distro on your system, so, if you break one, you won't break all |
| 22:21.47 | *** join/#devuan stanz (~stanz@162.250.14.86) |
| 22:22.02 | KatolaZ | d9867eb: since you have started recently on Linux, you should try as many as possible |
| 22:22.11 | d9867eb | freem_: I do not have enough diskspace for that |
| 22:22.13 | KatolaZ | you'll find the one which is best for you |
| 22:22.35 | freem_ | this computer have 3 distros on it: debian, from which i debootstraped devuan, and installed void musl. If any fails, I'll still have fallbacks |
| 22:22.55 | KatolaZ | I have only Devuan: I know it won't fail ;P |
| 22:23.05 | d9867eb | I have been using Linux for about 3 years, i am just a slow learner. |
| 22:23.15 | freem_ | d9867eb, you can not spend 20GiB for a new distro? You are using a 89GiB disk or what? |
| 22:23.52 | d9867eb | freem_: I need diskspace for games and stuff |
| 22:24.42 | freem_ | d9867eb, I need at max 20GiB for a linux distro, full system. The /home are shared |
| 22:25.30 | freem_ | if it's about games running under wine, they are under your $HOME/.wine/drive_c folder, so, shared too |
| 22:25.56 | *** join/#devuan sb35 (~athidhep@S0106602ad06acd48.vc.shawcable.net) |
| 22:25.59 | freem_ | but, yes, for games, you might have a problème if using a musl-based distro |
| 22:26.08 | *** join/#devuan tokerl (~sb35@S0106602ad06acd48.vc.shawcable.net) |
| 22:26.09 | freem_ | I'm not sure wine runs with that |
| 22:26.16 | d9867eb | freem_: no, it is steam. |
| 22:26.46 | freem_ | steam. It only supports Ubuntu 64bits, which means, glibc, so, no musl. |
| 22:27.16 | d9867eb | freem_: i did not plan on using on using void with musl on gaming computer. using musl would musl just be a fun test thing. |
| 22:27.17 | freem_ | but void linux have a glibc build |
| 22:27.47 | freem_ | I have not tested the glibc build, though, so I can't speak here |
| 22:27.56 | merzbow | pretty sure musl is good for IOT devices and system-on-chips |
| 22:28.10 | d9867eb | freem_: yes i know. but i chose Devuan over void because I really feel at home with dpkg and apt |
| 22:28.15 | freem_ | my void install is only to fit my perfectionnism |
| 22:28.37 | freem_ | devuan is clearly easier to use and maintain |
| 22:29.07 | *** join/#devuan knotahacker (~knotahack@cpe-24-198-161-177.maine.res.rr.com) |
| 22:29.26 | freem_ | more common knowledge here, easier to find advices that fit since it inherits from debian |
| 22:30.38 | freem_ | void is probably only for people knowing what they want, like i3 claims to be elitist. It might seems easy to use to their users, but it's not beginner friendly |
| 22:31.42 | freem_ | also, having some experience if things break might save you few days, and that experience can be acquired by playing with more classical distros |
| 22:31.50 | d9867eb | freem_: please recommend me a great linux resource |
| 22:32.00 | freem_ | duckduckgo. |
| 22:32.23 | freem_ | more seriously, it depends on what you intend to find |
| 22:32.26 | d9867eb | freem_: no, a resource not a search engine. |
| 22:32.30 | KatolaZ | d9867eb: man [LETTER]+[TAB]+[TAB] |
| 22:32.39 | freem_ | lol |
| 22:32.57 | freem_ | you could have said apropos, too |
| 22:33.08 | freem_ | anyway, I know about no universal resource |
| 22:33.20 | freem_ | archlinux wiki is nice |
| 22:33.26 | freem_ | same for gentoo's site |
| 22:33.36 | d9867eb | KatolaZ: manpages is not good for learning, only for looking up things that one forgot |
| 22:33.45 | KatolaZ | d9867eb: wrong |
| 22:33.52 | *** join/#devuan telst4r (~telst4r@fsf/member/telst4r) |
| 22:33.52 | KatolaZ | manpages contain all you need to know |
| 22:33.54 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 22:34.15 | freem_ | KatolaZ, they are not often full of examples |
| 22:34.32 | KatolaZ | just use the command |
| 22:34.37 | KatolaZ | you'll figure it out :) |
| 22:34.54 | freem_ | but, d9867eb: you are seriously asking about a universal good resource? |
| 22:35.05 | d9867eb | freem_: i dont like archwiki or their distro. ' |
| 22:35.13 | freem_ | what do you aim to? Programming? Admin? Using? |
| 22:35.52 | d9867eb | freem_: I do some programming, watching movies, gaming. |
| 22:35.53 | freem_ | for scripting and shell stuff, I really like an old website named grymoire |
| 22:36.04 | *** join/#devuan Xenguy (~Xenguy@unaffiliated/xenguy) |
| 22:36.10 | freem_ | for coding in C++, I like cppreference |
| 22:36.33 | freem_ | and to learn new tools to play with, I use aptitude in it's builtin ncurses mode |
| 22:36.42 | Xenguy | Do C++ coders get paid the big bucks? |
| 22:37.05 | freem_ | depends, I guess. What is a big buck? Is it more important that big fun? |
| 22:37.25 | merzbow | i tried to read grymoire but .. lol unix |
| 22:37.29 | Xenguy | I said nothing about importance, but an interesting question |
| 22:37.29 | freem_ | do you mean people with papers, or self-learners? |
| 22:38.25 | d9867eb | freem_: I am checking out grymoire and cppreference. |
| 22:38.30 | Xenguy | I just have an impression (without having any real evidence) that if you can sling good C++ code, you can make some good coin, but yeah, it's all relative I suppose |
| 22:38.53 | freem_ | in france, I'm 31years old, self-learner, no paper, paid around 2Kâ¬/month effective. Not a lot, but I am seeking stuff in this job I could not find easily otherwise |
| 22:39.04 | Xenguy | freem_: And I was thinking of anybody really |
| 22:39.17 | *** join/#devuan chomwitt (~chomwitt@2a02:587:dc1a:9d00:65db:d392:e7c4:6958) |
| 22:39.34 | freem_ | Also, I'm not a good negociator. |
| 22:40.04 | Xenguy | That's great to hear. I suppose it depends too on one's command of the language (e.g. junior or senior level) |
| 22:40.11 | freem_ | so, I'd say, yes, I could touch more, if I really wanted to, and considering my age and papers, it is really not bad here |
| 22:40.11 | d9867eb | freem_: however i thought more like on howto fix problems with a debian system and how components in a linux distro work? |
| 22:40.32 | KatolaZ | then you need C |
| 22:40.34 | KatolaZ | and Perl |
| 22:40.36 | KatolaZ | and Python :) |
| 22:41.03 | freem_ | d9867eb, on this, I do not really know, forums are the best bet. So... stackoverlow and co? |
| 22:41.12 | Xenguy | I hear there are some nice social net features implemented in France; seems like one of the more enlightened countries around if you ask me |
| 22:41.19 | freem_ | in france, I tend to squat liniuxfr.org a lot, too |
| 22:41.24 | d9867eb | freem_: what is co? |
| 22:41.32 | Xenguy | KatolaZ: So true, job ads these days want *everything* |
| 22:41.44 | freem_ | d9867eb, Co => company |
| 22:41.54 | d9867eb | freem_: i dont like co. people there are rude |
| 22:42.11 | d9867eb | freem_: so i meant |
| 22:42.19 | freem_ | Xenguy, I do not know, I don't know enough about other countries. |
| 22:42.58 | freem_ | d9867eb, geeks and nerds are often a bit rude, but you can learn a lot from their rudeness |
| 22:43.14 | d9867eb | freem_: ok |
| 22:43.16 | freem_ | you know IRC, so I'm sure you'll fit right it |
| 22:43.20 | *** join/#devuan okf (~Thunderbi@62.11.134.163) |
| 22:43.36 | d9867eb | freem_: yeah ok' |
| 22:44.11 | freem_ | things might be hard to heard, but if you take them correctly, it's just a way to learn quickly. There are also more friendly forums, depending on the country |
| 22:44.49 | freem_ | you might also try the mailing lists of the distro you'll choose, on Debian, I had nice discussions, before the war. |
| 22:45.56 | d9867eb | freem_: in sweden there are two ones called flashback and sweclockers. they cover many different topics including programming and sysadmining. |
| 22:46.10 | freem_ | sounds nice |
| 22:46.55 | KatolaZ | d9867eb: discussing has never helped learning |
| 22:46.56 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 22:47.02 | freem_ | true enough |
| 22:47.09 | KatolaZ | Michelangelo did not speak about sculpturing |
| 22:47.30 | freem_ | I won't count the number of times I just said some stupid thing, and people came to teach me more accurate stuff |
| 22:47.51 | d9867eb | KatolaZ: He was already good at it, that is why he didnt need to |
| 22:48.06 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 22:48.12 | Xenguy | I've learned countless useful things on IRC over the years |
| 22:48.16 | freem_ | I doubt he was able to do anything without teaching |
| 22:48.38 | freem_ | een a genius needs the shoulders of older people to create new things |
| 22:48.47 | freem_ | even* |
| 22:49.20 | freem_ | 23:47:02 <freem_> true enough <=== I did not understood things correctly when saying that |
| 22:49.32 | KatolaZ | :D |
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| 22:49.35 | KatolaZ | nvm |
| 22:49.50 | KatolaZ | my point is that discussion is worth when you have something to discuss about |
| 22:50.08 | KatolaZ | i.e., when you have already learned something yyourself |
| 22:50.21 | KatolaZ | otherwise the discussion is mostly a waste of time |
| 22:50.24 | KatolaZ | IMHO |
| 22:50.41 | KatolaZ | but I might be totally wrong on this |
| 22:50.48 | freem_ | oh, I see the point, now |
| 22:51.14 | freem_ | you mean, bases are needed to start learning by discussion? |
| 22:51.16 | KatolaZ | didn't mean to sound harsh, sorry :) |
| 22:51.35 | KatolaZ | bases are needed to understand what you don't know |
| 22:51.51 | KatolaZ | discussion can you give you pointers about what else you might need to know |
| 22:51.52 | d9867eb | guys, I am going to need to leave for now. thanks for your help. |
| 22:51.56 | freem_ | this is not wrong, honestly. But, just asking aroung how to acquire bases can be a good idea, too, and it's still discussion? |
| 22:51.58 | KatolaZ | but won't teach much, IMHO |
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| 22:52.17 | KatolaZ | yes freem_ |
| 22:52.20 | KatolaZ | asking is good |
| 22:52.20 | d9867eb | freem_: I will check out cppreference |
| 22:52.31 | KatolaZ | but you should be able to understand the answers you get |
| 22:52.43 | freem_ | d9867eb, as I said, the good reference depends on your goals and your current skills |
| 22:53.00 | KatolaZ | or to just get them and try digesting them and hack around them |
| 22:53.15 | freem_ | KatolaZ, I think, the main problem here is that asking correctly implies skills |
| 22:53.16 | d9867eb | well i am not very good at c++ as now |
| 22:53.29 | KatolaZ | d9867eb: nobody is |
| 22:53.42 | Xenguy | Well when I was learning linux, I was often in research mode, and asking lots of questions on IRC, and many people gave me good suggestions, pointers, advice, tips, etc., so my point is simply that (IRC) discussion can actually be useful also. We could both be correct : -) |
| 22:53.59 | KatolaZ | the language makes it very difficult to be good at programming in C++ |
| 22:54.04 | freem_ | C++ is a good language to remind you that you have a lot to learn, even after 10 years of practice. |
| 22:54.16 | KatolaZ | sure Xenguy :) |
| 22:54.34 | KatolaZ | maybe just you are, and I am wrong |
| 22:54.42 | freem_ | Xenguy, we all agree, but we did not knew how to say the same thing :) |
| 22:54.47 | KatolaZ | that's fine as well :) |
| 22:54.49 | Xenguy | Or maybe not |
| 22:55.17 | Xenguy | er, you know what I mean |
| 22:55.28 | KatolaZ | C++ is a good language to remind you that there *must* be a better lanugage :D |
| 22:56.19 | Xenguy | Yeah but they get paid the moola y'know ; -) |
| 22:56.31 | Xenguy | j/k |
| 22:56.37 | KatolaZ | only the very good ones Xenguy |
| 22:56.52 | freem_ | KatolaZ, and what would be a good language, for you? |
| 22:57.05 | KatolaZ | not a single answer |
| 22:57.10 | freem_ | let's have fun around this troll :) |
| 22:57.16 | KatolaZ | I guess you should know at least two imperative languages |
| 22:57.20 | KatolaZ | two scripting langs |
| 22:57.29 | KatolaZ | two functional languages |
| 22:57.33 | freem_ | do you consider C and C++ as different languages? |
| 22:57.37 | KatolaZ | + shell scripting |
| 22:57.37 | Xenguy | Well if that is true, I would learn a more sane language(s), from what I've read |
| 22:57.51 | KatolaZ | freem_: they are, indeed |
| 22:57.53 | KatolaZ | IMHO |
| 22:58.13 | freem_ | C++ have huge problems, and most of them are inherited from C usages |
| 22:58.28 | KatolaZ | I would disagree on that |
| 22:58.42 | KatolaZ | most of the C++ problems are introduced by C++-specific features |
| 22:58.45 | freem_ | another part is inherited from the full object fashion there were at some time |
| 22:59.09 | freem_ | some examples? |
| 22:59.20 | freem_ | Know that I dislike STL a lot |
| 22:59.29 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 22:59.36 | KatolaZ | that;s a good example to start with |
| 22:59.41 | freem_ | but it's only a lib, even if standard |
| 23:00.12 | freem_ | I tend to make a distinguo between languages and frameworks |
| 23:00.18 | KatolaZ | most of the OO-related syntax and semantics is quite odd |
| 23:00.24 | KatolaZ | (in C++_ |
| 23:00.33 | Xenguy | KatolaZ: 2+2+2 <-- I will look up those terms, very interesting |
| 23:00.45 | KatolaZ | Xenguy: :D |
| 23:00.50 | KatolaZ | don't take me too seriously |
| 23:00.51 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 23:00.59 | freem_ | oh, well, the simple fact that std::string exists to represent a string a fixed-width characters shows that stl is weak. |
| 23:01.03 | KatolaZ | I guess I should learn a language every year |
| 23:01.08 | Xenguy | Still, there ya go, an opportunity for me to learn something else |
| 23:01.11 | KatolaZ | unfortunately there is no time for that |
| 23:01.42 | freem_ | personnally, I stick with C++ for a set of reasons I trust good |
| 23:01.50 | freem_ | 1) it's an ISO standard. |
| 23:01.54 | Xenguy | freem_: That's another term I've read about, but I can never seem to remember what it means |
| 23:01.57 | freem_ | 2) it's fucking fast |
| 23:02.09 | KatolaZ | and in that is equal to C... |
| 23:02.10 | freem_ | 3) you can, if you wan't, not use wrong stuff |
| 23:02.19 | KatolaZ | C ties still... |
| 23:02.25 | KatolaZ | ;) |
| 23:02.34 | KatolaZ | freem_: you write a lot of useless stuff in C++ |
| 23:02.35 | KatolaZ | really |
| 23:02.36 | KatolaZ | a lot |
| 23:02.43 | Xenguy | C and C++ are equally fast, or ...? |
| 23:02.43 | freem_ | ok, so, 4) you can have type safety :p |
| 23:02.52 | KatolaZ | and end up creating generic code for stuff that you won't reuse ever |
| 23:03.00 | freem_ | Xenguy: it depends, sometimes, C++ is faster, sometimes C is |
| 23:03.09 | Xenguy | So a tie it seems |
| 23:03.21 | KatolaZ | type safety is a plus of C++ |
| 23:03.27 | Xenguy | hah |
| 23:03.38 | freem_ | but you need less C++ lines of code to write as safe and fast code than in C |
| 23:03.39 | KatolaZ | (I have written quite a bit of C++ as well, back in the days) |
| 23:03.53 | KatolaZ | freem_: you should have a look at haskell then :) |
| 23:04.00 | freem_ | C was actually my 1st serious language |
| 23:04.14 | Xiaoman | mumbles something about Rust |
| 23:04.23 | Xenguy | Joey, formerly of the Debian project, is way into Haskell now |
| 23:04.28 | Xenguy | Joey Hess |
| 23:04.29 | freem_ | I've heard a little about haskell. What does it have exactly? |
| 23:04.35 | freem_ | the functionnal way? |
| 23:04.41 | KatolaZ | fast |
| 23:04.42 | Xenguy | dunno, ask Joey |
| 23:04.43 | KatolaZ | standard |
| 23:04.49 | KatolaZ | there is no wrong stuff |
| 23:04.58 | KatolaZ | type-safety is built-in |
| 23:05.01 | freem_ | compiled language? |
| 23:05.05 | KatolaZ | and it's very concise to write |
| 23:05.06 | freem_ | RAII? |
| 23:05.07 | KatolaZ | yep |
| 23:05.12 | KatolaZ | compiled |
| 23:05.19 | freem_ | no fucking GC? |
| 23:05.25 | KatolaZ | uh? |
| 23:05.34 | freem_ | garbage collectors |
| 23:06.01 | freem_ | the best thing you have to never know when things that should break soon will effectively do |
| 23:06.24 | KatolaZ | it has a garbage collector |
| 23:06.26 | freem_ | or, the best thing to have things slow as hell when the GC decices to |
| 23:06.34 | KatolaZ | oh no |
| 23:06.44 | KatolaZ | in functional lanuages GC is somehow easier |
| 23:06.56 | KatolaZ | due to data immutability |
| 23:07.08 | KatolaZ | as soon as a data is out of scope, it gets wiped off |
| 23:07.24 | freem_ | so, it's like RAII, right? |
| 23:07.30 | KatolaZ | what's RAII? |
| 23:07.50 | freem_ | Resource Acquisition Is Initialization, one of the biggest strength of C++ |
| 23:08.07 | KatolaZ | nope |
| 23:08.16 | KatolaZ | it's different in functional languages |
| 23:08.33 | KatolaZ | you know exactly and precisely when something can be wiped off |
| 23:08.37 | freem_ | it implies that, when an object goes out of scope, it's freed, and desctructor called, which allows to also close file descriptors, clean openGL resources, etc etc |
| 23:08.40 | KatolaZ | without making costly computations |
| 23:08.59 | KatolaZ | freem_: most of that stuff is much easier in haskell |
| 23:09.01 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 23:09.02 | freem_ | well, then, it's RAII |
| 23:09.04 | KatolaZ | much much easier |
| 23:09.28 | KatolaZ | and you don't need to write tons of code |
| 23:09.39 | KatolaZ | and the code is much easier to read |
| 23:09.50 | Xiaoman | freem_: It's not RAII, it uses a GC. Look at Rust if you want a sane alternative to C++. |
| 23:09.53 | freem_ | I don't either in C++. Only useless guys do tons of code to manage resources in C++. |
| 23:10.06 | KatolaZ | or go, I must say |
| 23:10.50 | KatolaZ | freem_: I am talking of *much* less code |
| 23:10.54 | freem_ | I've read a bit of rust, already. Go, I did not tried, but it's something I should do |
| 23:10.56 | KatolaZ | a ratio of about 10/1 |
| 23:10.58 | KatolaZ | or 20/1 |
| 23:11.09 | Xiaoman | Don't worry about Go :) |
| 23:11.16 | KatolaZ | Xiaoman: :) |
| 23:11.17 | KatolaZ | why? |
| 23:11.27 | freem_ | more information needed Xiaoman :) |
| 23:11.28 | Xiaoman | Why would you, is the proper question. |
| 23:11.50 | freem_ | Because the more bases, the better? |
| 23:12.17 | Xiaoman | Not if you want to be productive. |
| 23:12.21 | KatolaZ | Xiaoman: go has an interesting process model, IMHO |
| 23:12.37 | KatolaZ | but that's hard to use for many imperative programmers |
| 23:12.46 | freem_ | why that? |
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| 23:13.24 | KatolaZ | because it's intrinsically and aggressively parallel |
| 23:13.31 | Xiaoman | Go has neat features; but a good language needs more than that, and Go lacks in a lot of areas. |
| 23:13.48 | KatolaZ | Xiaoman: that why you need more than "the one language" :_ |
| 23:13.49 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 23:13.55 | KatolaZ | the more you know the better |
| 23:14.00 | Xiaoman | Don't worry, a lot of people writes lots of code in Go, you will have to read it sometime :) |
| 23:14.10 | KatolaZ | but I guess we are getting OT, and will be bashed away soon... :D |
| 23:14.29 | KatolaZ | Xiaoman: I do |
| 23:14.33 | freem_ | not like there is a lot of discussion anyway |
| 23:14.42 | KatolaZ | and I don't find it difficult, TBH |
| 23:15.06 | freem_ | then, what would be go's failures? |
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