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| 01:41.48 | kwmiebach | Hi, I cannot use my webcam on ascii. lsusb shows it as 'Bus 002 Device 006: ID 041e:4097 Creative Technology, Ltd' but there is no /dev/video0 - and when I open cheese it does not find any webcams. |
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| 01:42.37 | kwmiebach | I found nothing in the forum, maybe someone has an idea how to make the webcam work on ascii. Or maybe it is not possible? |
| 01:44.45 | kwmiebach | And this is a headless box, maybe I need to install some packages to make it work? |
| 01:45.13 | AlexLikeRock | maybe need privative drivers |
| 01:45.32 | AlexLikeRock | what about /dev/video1 ? |
| 01:45.51 | AlexLikeRock | try othe web cam viewer |
| 01:46.59 | AlexLikeRock | kamoso |
| 01:50.32 | AlexLikeRock | mplayer |
| 01:50.36 | AlexLikeRock | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:51.09 | AlexLikeRock | mplayer -tv driver=v4l2:gain=1:width=640:height=480:device=/dev/video0:fps=10:outfmt=rgb16 tv:// |
| 01:55.26 | kwmiebach | ok thank you i will try |
| 01:55.41 | AlexLikeRock | :) |
| 02:05.10 | AlexLikeRock | mplayer ...../dev/video1 ..... |
| 02:11.05 | kwmiebach | with mplayer i get: v4l2: unable to open '/dev/video1' (same with video0) |
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| 05:33.05 | AlexLikeRock | https://paste.debian.net/1015429/ |
| 05:33.10 | AlexLikeRock | any idea ? |
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| 06:37.46 | gnarface | kwmiebach: i'm not familiar with that device, so i don't know for sure it was ever supported, but maybe it is and you simply have not loaded the proper driver |
| 06:39.49 | gnarface | kwmiebach: you might get some clues if you try this: 1) unplug the webcam 2) run dmesg, note the last few lines 3) plug in the webcam 4) run dmesg again, but carefully examine any new lines that appeared since the last run |
| 06:40.28 | gnarface | kwmiebach: (on a stock config you'll probably have to be root or use sudo to run dmesg) |
| 06:41.14 | gnarface | AlexLikeRock: just a random shot in the dark but what happens if you set DBUS_FATAL_WARNINGS=0 |
| 06:41.16 | gnarface | AlexLikeRock: ? |
| 06:41.36 | gnarface | AlexLikeRock: (make sure dbus is actually running) |
| 06:41.56 | AlexLikeRock | DBUS are remplacin at devuan |
| 06:42.22 | AlexLikeRock | by udev or some like that ? |
| 06:44.13 | gnarface | no, DBUS is something different. they replaced udev with eudev. |
| 06:44.29 | gnarface | udev/eudev are kernel device manager for /dev |
| 06:44.42 | gnarface | DBUS is a userspace inter-process communication daemon |
| 06:45.13 | gnarface | (for people who thought using stdin/stdout was too complicated and could be paradoxially fixed by making it more complicated) |
| 06:45.27 | gnarface | *paradoxically |
| 06:46.06 | gnarface | the ascii version of dbus might be stripped of some basic components that depended on systemd though |
| 06:46.16 | gnarface | steam doesn't like it |
| 06:46.43 | gnarface | crashes on exit unless you pass "DBUS_FATAL_WARNINGS=0" |
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| 09:23.47 | scoofy | report from Raspi 1 / Devuan: things look good, uptime is ~3 days now. apart from the initial locale-related glitches, the thing looks stable now. apt-get works, services work, media mounts, all good so far |
| 09:25.25 | scoofy | so you have +1 tester for Raspi 1. when I get to it, I'll also try the sunxi image on an OPi Zero and report whether I have any issues. (and maybe later on a raspi3 too) |
| 09:27.17 | scoofy | so... overall pretty cool that this thing can run even on a raspi 1! looks like a quite cool OS |
| 09:28.54 | scoofy | i'd also like to try out the desktop version some time when I get to install it on one of my laptops, just no time to setup computers now |
| 09:39.04 | nailyk | FYI I had an issue with udev package. Removing it do not delete init script. And this caused issues while replacing it with eudev. |
| 09:39.36 | nailyk | "insserv: script eudev: service udev already provided!" \n "insserv: exiting now!" \n "update-rc.d: error: insserv rejected the script header" |
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| 09:42.35 | scoofy | nailyk: did you use 'purge' with apt-get? that removes config files, too. 'remove' is not always enough |
| 09:43.20 | scoofy | I have a trouble with the GitLab for the arm-sdk. I'm trying to close an issue that I no longer have, but upon closing, the server just returns me a .JSON and nothing happens, the issue doesn't get closed |
| 09:43.55 | KatolaZ | nailyk: known |
| 09:43.58 | KatolaZ | see DNG ML |
| 09:44.02 | KatolaZ | and dev1galaxy |
| 09:44.12 | KatolaZ | we are working at a fix |
| 09:44.15 | scoofy | the URL I am redirected to, is: https://git.devuan.org/arm-sdk/issues/33.json?issue[state_event]=close, but this just displays a JSON and the issue doesn't get closed |
| 09:44.55 | scoofy | KatolaZ, any idea why this is happening? |
| 09:45.26 | nailyk | ok, just want to inform :) (yes I used purge) |
| 09:47.36 | scoofy | KatolaZ: do you have me on ignore list? |
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| 09:48.22 | scoofy | KatolaZ KatolaZ KatolaZ KatolaZ KatolaZ KatolaZ KatolaZ KatolaZ KatolaZ KatolaZ KatolaZ KatolaZ KatolaZ KatolaZ KatolaZ KatolaZ KatolaZ KatolaZ |
| 09:51.13 | KatolaZ | thanks nailyk |
| 09:51.14 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 09:51.24 | scoofy | KatolaZ: are you ignoring me? |
| 09:51.37 | nailyk | KatolaZ: scoffy asking if you see his messages |
| 09:51.51 | nailyk | s/scoffy/ scoofy / |
| 09:51.56 | djph | I'd hope he was ignoring you after that .... whatever it was |
| 09:52.31 | scoofy | djph: after my recommendation to use an image size that *actually* fits a 2GB SD card, yes |
| 09:52.50 | scoofy | yes, after such recommendation, it is *indeed* the best course of action, is to pull the /ignore card |
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| 09:53.34 | scoofy | because the image size 1.4 GB of zeros, that doesn't fit a SanDisk 2GB card. but whatever, KatolaZ doesn't care, and ignores that some people may be having issues |
| 09:53.58 | scoofy | whatever. what can you expect from an OS, whose developer just puts you on /ignore when you report a trobule? whatever. |
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| 09:54.09 | scoofy | dunno which attitue is better, the systemd attitude, or the /ignore attitude. |
| 09:55.04 | drawkula | resize it with gparted? |
| 09:55.11 | scoofy | anyways, i got work to do today, so just reported that overall the system looks stable. opened anouther issue in the issue tracker |
| 09:55.15 | drawkula | or does it trash ot? |
| 09:55.26 | drawkula | sometimes gparted has hickups |
| 09:55.31 | scoofy | drawkula: i was on Windows, at the partiuclar moment when that happened |
| 09:55.33 | scoofy | so: no gparted |
| 09:55.36 | scoofy | available |
| 09:55.53 | scoofy | so, copy the whole fucking image, to a Linux machine, onyl so that I can use gparted....... mmmmkay |
| 09:56.05 | drawkula | I've no idea about how disabled windows is |
| 09:56.09 | scoofy | very much so. |
| 09:56.10 | drawkula | I don't use it |
| 09:56.30 | scoofy | read: no ext4 resiez tools readily available on Windows |
| 09:56.33 | scoofy | *resize |
| 09:56.46 | drawkula | I heard it has a builtin linux now |
| 09:56.47 | scoofy | so *yes* of course I can solve it, it's just one extra hassle |
| 09:57.02 | scoofy | drawkula: Win10, yes. this is not Win10 tho |
| 09:57.16 | scoofy | anyways I can copy it to a |
| 09:57.30 | scoofy | ...Linux machine any time, no big deal, it's just one extra hassle |
| 09:57.58 | drawkula | typically users wit FSes on Sd cards use the faster ones |
| 09:58.02 | scoofy | anyways I reported it in the issue tracker, so this information was recorded at the place where it should be recorded |
| 09:58.16 | drawkula | so far the smallest clas10 card I know of is 4G |
| 09:58.48 | scoofy | it is a class 4 card, and it is "nominally" 2GB, but actually the Devuan image does not fit on ti |
| 09:58.55 | drawkula | yes... I remember bugtrackers... gentoo's one probably still has unanswered entries from my wild days |
| 09:59.20 | drawkula | hopefully the devuan bugtracker is friendlier |
| 09:59.35 | scoofy | at least if anyone cares, can fix it. i saw related requests ealier in the issue tracker, that has been responded to |
| 09:59.42 | scoofy | actually, a request to increase image size |
| 09:59.58 | drawkula | expanding can be done in place |
| 10:00.01 | scoofy | yep |
| 10:00.15 | drawkula | so starting with a smaller one is the choice with more options |
| 10:00.24 | scoofy | i agree with that, as you can always extend later on |
| 10:00.31 | scoofy | the reverse, is a bit more problematic |
| 10:01.43 | scoofy | so, i just reported some things that could make installing the OS a bit more straightforward, less extra steps required |
| 10:02.16 | drawkula | do developers read the wiki too? or just the bugtracker and the notes from wednesday meetings? |
| 10:02.59 | scoofy | no idea |
| 10:03.09 | scoofy | you'd have to ask them :) |
| 10:03.13 | drawkula | you have qemu or such on windows? |
| 10:03.32 | drawkula | then resizing the images with linux would work with that detour |
| 10:04.20 | drawkula | maybe the next release will have smaller images but reworking all alredy released ones probably never will happen |
| 10:04.30 | scoofy | not right now, and it'd be easier to just copy it to a linux machine, than to install an entire fucking OS just so that I can resize some ext4 partition....\ |
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| 10:05.13 | drawkula | I've lots of systems in my lan but sometimes I'm just too lazy to move the few meters and prefer a VM |
| 10:05.18 | scoofy | drawkula: sure. it'd be jessie 1.0.1, not 1.0.0, as the image is now different --> different SHA, MD5 etc. |
| 10:07.46 | drawkula | especially i prefer to boot a VM with e.g. GRML to manipulate images over loopback mounting |
| 10:08.02 | scoofy | VMs are cool, once they're set up and running |
| 10:08.12 | drawkula | i like to minimise the amount work i do as root |
| 10:09.44 | scoofy | sounds like an interesting distro. i just used Kali for such purposes, as it has a great collection of analysis tools |
| 10:10.02 | scoofy | when something needs fixed from a live cd |
| 10:10.59 | drawkula | i have a grml-iso in /boot/grml/ and can boot that with grub |
| 10:11.11 | drawkula | nice rescue system |
| 10:11.23 | scoofy | does it have option to not modify filesystems at all? kali does, for example |
| 10:11.43 | drawkula | --> apt-cache show grml-rescueboot |
| 10:12.01 | drawkula | grml can boot completely to ram or mount its filesystem from the boot media |
| 10:12.14 | drawkula | thus keeping one partition or the cd mounted |
| 10:12.20 | scoofy | sounds good |
| 10:12.30 | scoofy | could come handy |
| 10:13.18 | drawkula | before finding grml-rescueboot i put parted-magic's iso in grub but every other release that had to be done differently |
| 10:13.30 | KatolaZ | drawkula: you can try minimal-live for that |
| 10:13.35 | KatolaZ | similar aims as grml |
| 10:13.37 | KatolaZ | but smaller ;) |
| 10:13.43 | KatolaZ | (and you have games there) |
| 10:13.47 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 10:14.15 | KatolaZ | (but no systemd, obviously) |
| 10:14.15 | drawkula | does not play on computers, drawkula does play with computers |
| 10:14.27 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 10:15.00 | KatolaZ | what's important is to keep playing around |
| 10:15.13 | KatolaZ | a person who doesn't play is almost dead |
| 10:15.15 | KatolaZ | ;) |
| 10:15.16 | drawkula | http://yeti.gitlab.io/files/graphics-with-xterm/20180319-081302-GMT--Look-Mum-better-resolution-and-faster.webm <<< playing |
| 10:15.40 | drawkula | awk graphics |
| 10:16.29 | drawkula | awk is my BASIC now... the only thing I was missing was graphics |
| 10:16.37 | KatolaZ | drawkula: that qualifies as playing *on* computers :P |
| 10:16.53 | scoofy | drawkula: the 1px font size trick looks cool! |
| 10:16.54 | KatolaZ | really nice, indeed :) |
| 10:17.16 | drawkula | i loke these mcGuyverish hacks |
| 10:17.21 | drawkula | <PROTECTED> |
| 10:17.26 | drawkula | <PROTECTED> |
| 10:17.31 | drawkula | still low on caffeine |
| 10:18.10 | scoofy | i was thinking lately, i'd like to something similar in the text console (tty) somehow, though that would probably need some kernel hack, or some custom kernel font, or something similar |
| 10:18.12 | drawkula | ok... and my "save game" is called "backup"! |
| 10:18.41 | drawkula | text console probably is a frambuffer today on most systems |
| 10:18.46 | scoofy | some ppl did textmode graphics using braille UTF-8 signs |
| 10:18.49 | drawkula | that can be written to via some device node |
| 10:19.54 | scoofy | what i rather thought, is to have extra characters defined that are combination of sub-pixels, so each char could have 2x2, 3x3, 4x4 ... "pixels" |
| 10:19.54 | drawkula | I tried sixel graphics but thats boring |
| 10:20.09 | drawkula | because it is drawn all at once when drawing is finished |
| 10:20.10 | scoofy | so the more pixels per char, the more combination of extra chars needed in the charset |
| 10:20.11 | drawkula | :-( |
| 10:20.38 | drawkula | or I still havent fully understood sixels |
| 10:20.48 | drawkula | http://saitoha.github.io/libsixel/ |
| 10:20.51 | scoofy | cos, it's be realy cool to say, watch movies in a textmode tty console :) but the existing tools I've tried, are low quality |
| 10:21.05 | KatolaZ | sixel are sexy |
| 10:21.13 | drawkula | like a printer |
| 10:21.14 | KatolaZ | s:el:els |
| 10:22.08 | drawkula | unluclily screen does not have the sixel patches |
| 10:22.21 | drawkula | in de??an |
| 10:22.33 | drawkula | xterm has |
| 10:23.27 | scoofy | i'm wishing for something that can display higher resolution stuff, but doesn't require xterm or X itself, but rather works in a tty console. so far I haven't found this thing |
| 10:23.53 | drawkula | hey devs... I can has screen with sixels? plz! kthxbye! |
| 10:24.18 | drawkula | console framebuffer |
| 10:24.32 | scoofy | can you write to it somehow? or only via kernel hack? |
| 10:25.00 | drawkula | maybe /dev/fb0 |
| 10:25.05 | scoofy | hm. |
| 10:25.24 | drawkula | there is a txt file in the kernel sources about framebuffers |
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| 10:25.34 | scoofy | indeed, "everything is a file". gotta check that out. |
| 10:25.44 | drawkula | but it is years ago that i've looked into it |
| 10:26.18 | drawkula | and there are tools somewhere to switch the fb's resolution |
| 10:26.28 | drawkula | but typically we all want the max |
| 10:26.48 | scoofy | "open up a graphics desktop just to watch some movies? this is Linux, should be doable in the console." |
| 10:27.09 | drawkula | mplayer has lost svga-output? |
| 10:27.28 | drawkula | probably it will do fb then |
| 10:27.39 | scoofy | does that work in a tty console? haven't checked that one |
| 10:27.53 | scoofy | i know it has some aalib interface, but that looks awful |
| 10:27.55 | drawkula | it did... years ago |
| 10:27.56 | scoofy | in ascii |
| 10:28.14 | drawkula | or in color with libcaca |
| 10:28.25 | scoofy | yea. doesn't look too good either :/ |
| 10:29.35 | *** join/#devuan flrn (~flrn@unaffiliated/flrn) |
| 10:29.39 | scoofy | hm, gotta check this Sixel thing, looks interesting |
| 10:31.10 | scoofy | hm,seems there's a kernel patch for it for the console buffer... |
| 10:32.59 | drawkula | the nice thing with sixel is that it works over ssh |
| 10:33.13 | scoofy | hmm. |
| 10:33.14 | drawkula | framebuffer graphics don't give that |
| 10:34.47 | scoofy | gotta go. see ya later. |
| 10:36.24 | drawkula | _o/" |
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| 12:54.32 | *** join/#devuan d9867eb (~d9867eb@194.103.46.106) |
| 12:54.36 | d9867eb | hi |
| 12:55.53 | d9867eb | i had like to run runit and mdev instead of sysv and eudev? is that possible? |
| 12:56.44 | fsmithred | d9867eb, search dng mailing list for discussions of runit, musl, and whatever else: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/mindex/dng@20380101.000000.00000000.en.html |
| 12:56.45 | d9867eb | does devuan support wayland? |
| 12:56.53 | fsmithred | not that I know about |
| 12:57.07 | fsmithred | does it require systemd, and is it in debian repos? |
| 12:57.25 | fsmithred | if the answers are "no" and "yes", then it should work in devuan. |
| 12:57.48 | d9867eb | it is in debian repos |
| 12:58.22 | d9867eb | i dont know if wayland requires wayland. |
| 12:58.34 | d9867eb | requires systemd i meant |
| 12:59.04 | fsmithred | apt-cache depends xwayland |
| 12:59.18 | fsmithred | is that the right package? |
| 13:00.39 | d9867eb | hmm |
| 13:01.20 | d9867eb | no it would be plasma-workspace-wayland |
| 13:01.22 | *** join/#devuan inhetep_ (~inhetep@gateway/tor-sasl/inhetep) |
| 13:01.51 | d9867eb | seems like it requires systemd |
| 13:01.57 | d9867eb | sad |
| 13:02.24 | fsmithred | how are you getting that? |
| 13:02.51 | d9867eb | https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1pr6qw/kwin_on_wayland_will_depend_on_systemd/ |
| 13:02.52 | nemo | until wayland supports my habit of remoting apps, I'm not going to shed any tears over lack of devuan support |
| 13:02.58 | d9867eb | found this one |
| 13:04.29 | debdog | at least seems to depend on libsystemd https://packages.debian.org/stretch/xwayland |
| 13:04.52 | fsmithred | yeah, but so does everything else |
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| 13:05.33 | fsmithred | apt-cache depends plasma-workspace-wayland doesn't show a dep on systemd. Not sure if any of the listed deps depend on it |
| 13:05.51 | d9867eb | there seems to be a package in ascii in fact for plasma on wayland |
| 13:06.10 | fsmithred | I tried 'aptitude -s install plasma-workspace-wayland' |
| 13:06.35 | fsmithred | but I can't be sure of the results because of my weird sources.list and various pinning. |
| 13:07.51 | fsmithred | the fact that I'm getting any results is a good sign. |
| 13:08.14 | d9867eb | ok |
| 13:09.08 | fsmithred | I guess you get to be first to try it and let us know if it works. |
| 13:09.37 | d9867eb | fsmithred: which is the best devuan edition for a home user? |
| 13:09.38 | KatolaZ | xwayland depends on libsystemd0 |
| 13:09.40 | d9867eb | ok thanks |
| 13:09.47 | KatolaZ | I guess some stuff might depend on libpam-systemd |
| 13:09.58 | KatolaZ | which is "Provided" by elogind in ASCII |
| 13:10.20 | KatolaZ | it's called libpam-elogind |
| 13:10.22 | fsmithred | yeah, I ran into that the other day - needed libpam-systemd and libpam-elogind worked |
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| 13:10.55 | fsmithred | d9867eb, jessie is still our stable relase, but ascii is pretty close |
| 13:11.08 | fsmithred | and I know kde works in ascii |
| 13:11.38 | d9867eb | fsmithred: ok, but how stable is ceres? |
| 13:11.51 | fsmithred | ceres is a neglected child |
| 13:11.58 | KatolaZ | d9867eb: ceres in unstable |
| 13:11.59 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 13:12.07 | KatolaZ | well, it's not neglected |
| 13:12.13 | KatolaZ | will get some more love soon |
| 13:12.16 | fsmithred | yeah |
| 13:12.34 | KatolaZ | we'll switch the the usual unstable/testing/stable path as soon as ASCII stable is out |
| 13:12.48 | fsmithred | I wouldn't try running ceres for anything other than testing purposes now |
| 13:12.49 | KatolaZ | atm ceres seems to be a bit more stable than sid |
| 13:12.49 | d9867eb | KatolaZ: how unstable? like debians experimental or like ubuntu non lts? |
| 13:13.00 | KatolaZ | d9867eb: like Debian sid |
| 13:13.07 | d9867eb | KatolaZ: ok |
| 13:13.14 | KatolaZ | means that stuff can break, every now and then |
| 13:13.22 | KatolaZ | and you should know how to fix it |
| 13:13.27 | d9867eb | ok |
| 13:13.44 | KatolaZ | d9867eb: if you are not in a terrible hurry, I would wait for beowulf |
| 13:13.54 | KatolaZ | which shouldn't be too far anyway |
| 13:14.10 | KatolaZ | the idea is to have beowulf installable asap |
| 13:14.18 | KatolaZ | before buster becomes stable |
| 13:14.29 | d9867eb | KatolaZ: I want to learn to fix those errors. Do you have any resource to learn from? |
| 13:14.34 | KatolaZ | (i.e., withoug waiting for buster to beome stable) |
| 13:14.39 | KatolaZ | d9867eb: uh? |
| 13:14.46 | KatolaZ | what errors? |
| 13:14.57 | fsmithred | the ones he might encounter with ceres |
| 13:15.11 | d9867eb | fsmithred: KatolaZ yes |
| 13:15.22 | KatolaZ | how can I know how to fix an error that has not occurred yet? :D |
| 13:15.29 | KatolaZ | I mean |
| 13:15.35 | KatolaZ | sid is normally for seasoned debian users |
| 13:15.46 | KatolaZ | who know how to get out of a dep mess, for instance |
| 13:15.49 | fsmithred | debian wiki, devuan wiki (friendsofdevuan.org), dev1galaxy.org, dng mailing list, other debian docs |
| 13:16.02 | KatolaZ | best school is direct experience |
| 13:16.05 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 13:16.07 | fsmithred | yup |
| 13:16.48 | d9867eb | so i should i just install ceres and try to get along? |
| 13:16.56 | fsmithred | probably not |
| 13:17.30 | fsmithred | I'm more conservative. I'd say install ascii now and upgrade to beowulf or mixed beowulf/ceres at some point. |
| 13:18.12 | fsmithred | ...if there's some reason you need to have the latest versions. |
| 13:18.27 | d9867eb | ok |
| 13:20.11 | fsmithred | if you have an extra box or a VM to play with, you can try anything without having to worry. |
| 13:20.45 | fsmithred | time to go. see you all later. |
| 13:21.11 | d9867eb | fsmithred: I have some other machines than my desktop but i use all of them for other things alrady |
| 13:21.18 | d9867eb | fsmithred: bye |
| 13:31.26 | zyliwax | hello, i'm just wondering if this "service udev already provided!" bug is actually breaking anything atm or is simply an annoyance |
| 13:31.42 | zyliwax | (running ascii) |
| 13:34.24 | d9867eb | zyliwax: afaik it is nothing to worry bout |
| 13:34.40 | zyliwax | yeah i didn't think so either |
| 13:34.46 | d9867eb | i also i have it |
| 13:35.03 | zyliwax | it would suck if you're relying on a zero error status from apt, though :) |
| 13:35.14 | d9867eb | yeah |
| 13:35.21 | zyliwax | (i am not in that boat myself but can imagine it may be a reasonably common situation) |
| 13:35.42 | d9867eb | why are you not in the boat? |
| 13:35.56 | zyliwax | d9867eb: not sure if english is your first language but that's an idiom |
| 13:36.06 | d9867eb | zyliwax: ok |
| 13:36.31 | zyliwax | meaning that a certain situation is applicable to you |
| 13:37.08 | zyliwax | https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/in_the_same_boat |
| 13:37.09 | d9867eb | english is not my first language. I learned some reading some articles about linux |
| 13:38.07 | d9867eb | thanks |
| 13:38.27 | zyliwax | my pleasure :) |
| 13:39.20 | d9867eb | zyliwax: do you use devuan as a desktop or as a server? |
| 13:39.53 | d9867eb | I only use it as server but also thinking of installing on my desktop |
| 13:40.10 | zyliwax | d9867eb: i have a headless devuan server along with a laptop install |
| 13:40.40 | d9867eb | how does the laptop feel? |
| 13:40.51 | d9867eb | is devuan good on desktop |
| 13:40.54 | d9867eb | ? |
| 13:41.06 | zyliwax | the laptop install is really frustrating me because the laptop has a touchscreen and the driver takes an extremely long time to either time out or be recognized (15+ minutes) |
| 13:41.11 | zyliwax | this is not a devuan problem |
| 13:41.17 | d9867eb | ok |
| 13:41.21 | zyliwax | i notice it on many distributions |
| 13:41.25 | zyliwax | gentoo |
| 13:41.34 | zyliwax | but not voidlinux |
| 13:41.53 | zyliwax | i think the problem is either my hardware, the linuxwacom package, or both |
| 13:41.58 | d9867eb | i am thinking, maybe i should wait for beowolf devuan |
| 13:42.00 | zyliwax | it makes me very sad :( |
| 13:42.39 | d9867eb | zyliwax: would it be worth it right now to switch? |
| 13:43.04 | zyliwax | maybe i'll try devuan jessie or downgrade the linuxwacom package on the laptop and see if it fixes the problem |
| 13:43.09 | zyliwax | d9867eb: what are you switching from? |
| 13:43.18 | d9867eb | zyliwax: what Desktop environment do you use? |
| 13:43.33 | zyliwax | d9867eb: none :D i use plain xorg+i3 |
| 13:43.40 | d9867eb | oh |
| 13:43.51 | d9867eb | i prefer kde plasma or mate |
| 13:44.30 | d9867eb | gnome is in love with systemd, so i dont like gnome |
| 13:44.41 | zyliwax | i didn't like gnome even before then |
| 13:44.54 | zyliwax | kde was always my choice for a fancy DE |
| 13:45.11 | d9867eb | me neither, but i dislike gnome even more now |
| 13:45.24 | zyliwax | then i used xfce a lot for the slim factor |
| 13:45.31 | zyliwax | though i find that too heavy now :) |
| 13:45.35 | d9867eb | xfce is old |
| 13:45.54 | zyliwax | d9867eb: like, you're saying it's gone unmaintained for some time? |
| 13:46.00 | d9867eb | yeah |
| 13:46.09 | zyliwax | i think i tried out lxqt a little while ago and liked it a bit |
| 13:46.34 | d9867eb | zyliwax: it has a too small userbase for me |
| 13:46.45 | zyliwax | i generally like to set up windows refugees with mint+mate |
| 13:46.57 | zyliwax | which isn't exactly kosher but keeps the support nags down ;) |
| 13:47.16 | d9867eb | i usually recommend ubuntu mate |
| 13:47.17 | zyliwax | they don't care about the politics of the free software community |
| 13:47.41 | zyliwax | i haven't used ubuntu in... a really long time |
| 13:48.21 | zyliwax | it was really cool when i was a windows refugee myself but now it cramps my style |
| 13:48.22 | *** join/#devuan TemporalBeing1 (~Ben_Meyer@172-6-231-225.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net) |
| 13:48.24 | zyliwax | https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cramp_someone%27s_style |
| 13:49.11 | d9867eb | zyliwax: do you have any idea when beowolf will release? |
| 13:49.28 | zyliwax | d9867eb: not a clue, i'm not a devuan dev myself, just a user :) |
| 13:49.36 | d9867eb | ok |
| 13:49.42 | zyliwax | you asked if it'd be worthwhile to switch |
| 13:49.46 | zyliwax | what would you be switching from? |
| 13:49.48 | d9867eb | yeah |
| 13:49.56 | d9867eb | ubuntu mate 17.10 |
| 13:50.19 | zyliwax | would you intend to migrate your existing install to devuan or simply do a fresh install? |
| 13:50.27 | zyliwax | (hint: the former is probably going to break things) |
| 13:50.44 | d9867eb | a fresh one would be better i think |
| 13:50.54 | zyliwax | yeah i agree |
| 13:51.06 | zyliwax | back your data up beforehand |
| 13:51.19 | d9867eb | no need for that |
| 13:51.41 | d9867eb | all my important things is my nextcloud |
| 13:51.45 | zyliwax | i am personally a fan of the debootstrap install method to keep the setup as minimal as possible |
| 13:52.02 | zyliwax | plus coming from an arch/gentoo background, it feels more natural for me |
| 13:52.28 | d9867eb | i ran gentoo for a while |
| 13:52.31 | zyliwax | https://devuan.org/os/documentation/dev1fanboy/jessie-minimal-install |
| 13:52.52 | d9867eb | the compiling times were very long for me |
| 13:53.11 | zyliwax | this is a good setup guide, i tweak it slightly so i bootstrap ascii directly and use dhcpcd5 instead of isc-dhcp-client |
| 13:53.15 | d9867eb | like 1 hour for kernel |
| 13:53.33 | zyliwax | yeah compiling times are a hassle |
| 13:53.48 | zyliwax | i wanted to go with devuan for my laptop so it could be my road warrior |
| 13:54.09 | d9867eb | zyliwax: do you have desktop machine? |
| 13:54.21 | d9867eb | like a real rig |
| 13:54.23 | zyliwax | (okay, i'll define "road warrior" as "a computing device meant for travel") |
| 13:54.48 | zyliwax | d9867eb: i do have a desktop, although it's really being used as a server atm |
| 13:54.59 | d9867eb | zyliwax: ok |
| 13:55.08 | zyliwax | my "desktop" is actually a laptop with an external display |
| 13:55.29 | d9867eb | doesnt sound very desktopy to me |
| 13:55.48 | zyliwax | well, it's on top on a desk :) |
| 13:55.54 | d9867eb | haha |
| 13:55.56 | zyliwax | does it sound more desktopy now? |
| 13:56.02 | d9867eb | yeah |
| 13:56.15 | zyliwax | yeah i have a dock for the laptop |
| 13:56.22 | d9867eb | my desktop computer is on the floor |
| 13:56.51 | zyliwax | so i can take it on the go or use it locally with peripherals |
| 13:58.11 | nemo | d9867eb: xfce isn't as slim as it used to be |
| 13:58.15 | nemo | d9867eb: I use MATE too |
| 13:58.35 | nemo | hits the sweet spot for me in terms of perf/features/familiarity |
| 13:59.11 | d9867eb | nemo: yeha |
| 13:59.16 | d9867eb | yeah |
| 13:59.26 | nemo | d9867eb: also apparently more memory efficient than XFCE these days ð |
| 13:59.49 | nemo | maybe due to better lib function reuse in its components? (shared lib memory efficiency?) |
| 14:00.34 | nemo | d9867eb: https://l3net.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/cmp-all4.png well... his experiment dates back to 2014 - but certainly the ones on the high end do not surprise me at all |
| 14:01.06 | d9867eb | nemo: do you think i should switch now or wait for beowolf? |
| 14:01.14 | debdog | hmm, fluxbox even twice as uch openbox |
| 14:01.35 | KatolaZ | d9867eb: what do you need exactly? |
| 14:01.41 | nemo | it's funny that gnome3 and unity were trying to tablet-ify their UI when their memory usage would suck up a rather large chunk of the memory of the lowrange tablet market |
| 14:01.49 | KatolaZ | I mean, in terms of software |
| 14:01.50 | nemo | which... is probably where linux would even have a chance against android |
| 14:02.08 | KatolaZ | nemo: linux does not have any chance against android -_- |
| 14:02.14 | nemo | hehe |
| 14:02.24 | nemo | KatolaZ: well, yeah, that's obv now from the death of ubuntu's effort |
| 14:02.33 | nemo | KatolaZ: but... that was the thinking at the time |
| 14:02.37 | d9867eb | nemo: generally bug free distro with no systemd |
| 14:02.38 | KatolaZ | this legend has spriralled us down the rabbit hole |
| 14:02.42 | KatolaZ | to ho avail |
| 14:02.43 | zyliwax | android is linux, i think you mean GNU+linux ;) |
| 14:02.47 | nemo | now I have no idea why they are continuuing - bloodymindedness? designers need entertainment? |
| 14:02.51 | KatolaZ | no zyliwax |
| 14:02.54 | d9867eb | nemo: with somewhat new software |
| 14:03.03 | KatolaZ | android is a prorpietary OS that happens to use the Linux kernel |
| 14:03.12 | nemo | d9867eb: KatolaZ was the one asking you btw ð |
| 14:03.19 | d9867eb | oh ok |
| 14:03.24 | zyliwax | KatolaZ: yeah i oversimplified, my bad |
| 14:03.28 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 14:03.42 | nemo | d9867eb: I imagine it depends on your hardware - do you need new kernel features? |
| 14:03.50 | KatolaZ | zyliwax: the problem is that many people count android as "Linux' success" |
| 14:03.55 | zyliwax | android is androidos+linux |
| 14:04.00 | KatolaZ | which is false, silly, dump, and misleading |
| 14:04.05 | KatolaZ | IMHO |
| 14:04.40 | d9867eb | nemo: no I dont think so |
| 14:04.43 | zyliwax | i bet they're the same people who consider ChromeOS "Linux success" |
| 14:04.49 | KatolaZ | d9867eb: if you need the latest bleeding edge stuff, you probably don't want to use De??an |
| 14:05.14 | KatolaZ | unless you want to give a try to unstable |
| 14:05.24 | KatolaZ | (which is what Ubuntu gives to their users, BTW) |
| 14:05.27 | nemo | zyliwax: I keep checking for news on the small version of the pine64 |
| 14:05.34 | nemo | zyliwax: finally get my SO off her chromebook |
| 14:05.49 | d9867eb | KatolaZ: i used testing and unstable for a while but my games were laggy on unstable |
| 14:05.58 | KatolaZ | shrugs |
| 14:06.03 | KatolaZ | dunno d9867eb |
| 14:06.13 | KatolaZ | nobody knows better than you |
| 14:06.17 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 14:07.06 | d9867eb | KatolaZ: my conclusion, wait for beowolf, then switch and stay there. |
| 14:07.36 | d9867eb | KatolaZ: any idea when beowolf could become installable? |
| 14:07.57 | KatolaZ | d9867eb: uh? |
| 14:08.30 | zyliwax | nemo: oy, the whole concept of chromebooks bothers me |
| 14:08.46 | d9867eb | zyliwax: i think they are great |
| 14:08.53 | zyliwax | i've never heard of this pine64 though, but good luck with your efforts |
| 14:09.17 | nemo | zyliwax: I bought the chromebook when it first came out because it was dirt cheap and I thought linux was easier to install on it |
| 14:09.29 | zyliwax | d9867eb: i guess i just like my computing to stay local as much as possible |
| 14:09.34 | nemo | didn't realise what passive-aggressive bastards google can be w/ their "dev mode" and "root access" |
| 14:09.45 | nemo | similar to how they are on android too come to think of it |
| 14:10.22 | zyliwax | chromebooks seem to be another means of weaseling vendor lockdown into the sphere of public computing devices |
| 14:10.33 | zyliwax | right to repair is not getting enough attention |
| 14:10.47 | zyliwax | chromebooks/ithings/etc. are getting TOO much </soapbox> |
| 14:11.09 | d9867eb | zyliwax: well me too, but it is great that more people use linux. that will lead to companies sending engingers to help eith coding |
| 14:11.30 | KatolaZ | d9867eb: using android is not "using Linux" |
| 14:11.45 | KatolaZ | except for a specific, narrow definition of "using Linux" |
| 14:11.47 | nemo | zyliwax: these days you can get a fairly usable laptop out of a chromebook w/ bios flashing. |
| 14:12.03 | nemo | zyliwax: but eh. at this point I've had enough. gonna wait for pinebook rather than try to rescue her aging netbook |
| 14:12.08 | zyliwax | i'd just like to interject for a moment :) |
| 14:12.33 | nemo | KatolaZ: I use my samsung note 4 pretty heavily w/ linux. chroot! |
| 14:12.40 | nemo | KatolaZ: makes an awesome mini laptop |
| 14:12.43 | *** join/#devuan obeardly (~obeardly@12.153.3.14) |
| 14:12.45 | zyliwax | nemo: you can install libreboot on an asus c201, which is the one chromebook i'd consider using (and only under that circumstance) |
| 14:12.58 | zyliwax | but still, it only has 16GB of eMMC |
| 14:13.08 | zyliwax | i need muh storage space |
| 14:13.24 | d9867eb | KatolaZ: do you have any idea when Devuan Beowulf could come out? |
| 14:13.39 | KatolaZ | d9867eb: we still need to put ascii out |
| 14:13.40 | *** join/#devuan TemporalBeing1 (~Ben_Meyer@72.32.180.179) |
| 14:13.48 | d9867eb | yeah ok |
| 14:14.02 | zyliwax | the saddest thing is that these devices are obsoleted well before their usable lifespan |
| 14:14.17 | zyliwax | = too much e-waste |
| 14:14.23 | KatolaZ | namely zyliwax |
| 14:14.32 | KatolaZ | they are enginnered to not last |
| 14:14.32 | nemo | zyliwax: 16GB (or GiB - not sure which MMCs are biased toward) is quite a lot for a linux distro. and... a lightweight laptop is not 'sactly where I'd be dumping all my media |
| 14:14.46 | KatolaZ | nemo: that's true |
| 14:14.50 | nemo | zyliwax: but. you could just shove a small USB3 drive in the port and leave it there |
| 14:14.51 | d9867eb | KatolaZ: when is ascii coming? |
| 14:14.55 | KatolaZ | but have you tried to install KDE in less than 16 GB? |
| 14:14.58 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 14:15.07 | KatolaZ | d9867eb: when it's ready |
| 14:15.09 | nemo | kinda gave up on KDE many years ago sorry ⺠|
| 14:15.21 | zyliwax | nemo: true that -- and iirc the c201 supports microSD so it could work out well enough |
| 14:15.43 | zyliwax | i still couldn't run gentoo on a box like that though :( |
| 14:16.11 | d9867eb | debian stable kde does not like my screen very much |
| 14:16.48 | KatolaZ | the last KDE that appeared on my screen was 1.2, I guess... |
| 14:17.05 | gnarface | i tested kde in jessie, i couldn't seem to figure out how to use the desktop icons right |
| 14:17.14 | gnarface | i kept trying to double-click but just getting drag |
| 14:17.28 | gnarface | looked pretty though |
| 14:17.35 | nemo | zyliwax: I ran gentoo for many years on a laptop w/ 96MiB of RAM and a P166 processor ⺠|
| 14:17.43 | d9867eb | well my text was very small and i did not see howto chnage it |
| 14:17.52 | KatolaZ | gnarface: plasma is reported to work fine in ASCII |
| 14:18.19 | KatolaZ | (sorry, it was 1.1.2...) |
| 14:18.20 | gnarface | noted |
| 14:18.26 | nemo | zyliwax: it even launched seamonkey so I could do some web browsing and checking email ⺠|
| 14:18.41 | zyliwax | nemo: do you have any hair left? :) |
| 14:19.14 | nemo | zyliwax: heh heh. I couldn't be bothered to actually *compile* on it so I chrooted in from my desktop and built from that |
| 14:19.24 | nemo | zyliwax: at the time my desktop had a more respectable amount of ram. half a gig at least |
| 14:19.40 | nemo | zyliwax: only machine I used -Os on |
| 14:19.54 | nemo | figured it was better to burn cycles on that than thrash out to swap |
| 14:21.14 | zyliwax | i would make the same wager too |
| 14:21.38 | zyliwax | i'd love to set up some distcc fun one of these days |
| 14:26.22 | nemo | zyliwax: yeh. I had distcc running for a while, but just didn't seem worth it eventually |
| 14:26.25 | nemo | stuff was fast enough |
| 14:26.29 | nemo | I wasn't in *that* much of a hurry |
| 14:27.20 | zyliwax | nemo: my normal way of doing things now is to simply initiate a big upgrade right before i'm asleep |
| 14:27.49 | nemo | that was always a good strategy w/ gentoo ð |
| 14:28.10 | nemo | zyliwax: ... chrooted in over an nfs mount if that wasn't obv |
| 14:28.24 | zyliwax | seems silly to have to change portage build settings because, yeah, even my c2d is fast enough to compile in that timeframe |
| 14:28.50 | nemo | zyliwax: the only thing I have a problem with nowdays is Seamonkey - which I still keep around for the proflie I've been running for past 2 decades |
| 14:29.03 | nemo | zyliwax: I'm building that on my server box nowdays which has 1 whole gig of RAM |
| 14:29.22 | zyliwax | nemo: i didn't read that message carefully enough to catch notice, but reading it again, yeah, sounds like you'd need some networking to do that :) |
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| 14:31.27 | zyliwax | nemo: it sucks that mozilla seems to be losing its way from what made it great, and i hope that seamonkey can retain those good elements moving forward |
| 14:31.49 | zyliwax | nemo: i use palemoon+pentadactyl, and i think i will go insane when that arrangement stops working :) |
| 14:31.58 | zyliwax | afk for a bit |
| 14:32.11 | nemo | zyliwax: well. some masochist might copy the filesystem on and off or something but yeah ⺠|
| 14:32.17 | nemo | hmmmm |
| 14:32.24 | nemo | that might not actually be a terrible idea |
| 14:32.31 | nemo | rsync... |
| 14:32.40 | nemo | oh well! next time |
| 14:43.59 | zyliwax | just for a bit :) |
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| 15:22.18 | nemo | zyliwax: https://github.com/cmcaine/tridactyl looks like someone is trying... |
| 15:22.37 | nemo | zyliwax: the one that I don't want to give up at present is tabcandy/panorama |
| 15:22.47 | nemo | zyliwax: thankfully that one has a web extension that is making a lot of progress |
| 15:22.54 | nemo | not looking forward to recreating all my groups tho â¹ |
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| 16:03.12 | samayra | How can I install `pdflatex` package on devuan jessie? |
| 16:03.51 | samayra | It seems to be absent from both jessie and ascii main repos. |
| 16:12.26 | *** join/#devuan Beerbelott (c3d6f1fd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.195.214.241.253) |
| 16:12.32 | Beerbelott | Hello |
| 16:12.46 | Beerbelott | Are difficulties /w eudev package expected on ascii? |
| 16:15.02 | zyliwax | Beerbelott: are you talking about the configuration error apt(,-get} spits out? "service udev already provided!" |
| 16:15.02 | n4dir | Beerbelott: yesterday someone posted about problems he had, but i didn't follow the discussion. Either look in the logs ( botbot.me/freenode/devuan, see top of channel), or ask later. Probably someone will remember |
| 16:15.26 | Beerbelott | zyliwax: Precisely |
| 16:15.38 | Beerbelott | n4dir: I'll check that |
| 16:16.05 | zyliwax | Beerbelott: yeah the issue is known, but from what i can tell it should not impact performance |
| 16:16.31 | zyliwax | (i am not a devuan dev myself, so stick around for when one of them is back for an "official" response) |
| 16:17.13 | Beerbelott | I found that: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20180317.192510.75ff0deb.en.html in the channel history |
| 16:17.27 | Beerbelott | Seems to d othe trick |
| 16:17.30 | Beerbelott | I'll give it a try |
| 16:19.07 | n4dir | good luck :-) |
| 16:19.40 | zyliwax | Beerbelott: oh that's neat, i tried it on my system just now and apt returned 0 :) |
| 16:19.46 | zyliwax | appreciate you sharing the link |
| 16:20.00 | zyliwax | and KatolaZ for pointing it out :D |
| 16:20.39 | Beerbelott | However I am unsure of removing both udev & udev-finish or merely udev service files |
| 16:21.56 | zyliwax | one more note: it looks like the original poster in that thread was running 32-bit, but i can confirm the fix works on 64-bit as well |
| 16:23.22 | fsmithred | Beerbelott, you should be able to just remove /etc/init.d/udev |
| 16:23.40 | Beerbelott | My problem is this file is part of the udev package |
| 16:23.56 | Beerbelott | Does that mean the whol udev package shall be purged? |
| 16:24.09 | fsmithred | not sure. I didn't have any problems upgrading. |
| 16:24.09 | Beerbelott | both files actually |
| 16:24.36 | Beerbelott | Would have been cleaner if the udev package was purged/modified to suite eudev arrival |
| 16:24.38 | fsmithred | but someone was in here a couple days ago, and he got the advice I just repeated, and it worked for him |
| 16:24.58 | Beerbelott | It *works* but it's ugly |
| 16:25.11 | fsmithred | someone submitted a patch this morning |
| 16:25.12 | Beerbelott | dpkg -L udev |
| 16:25.17 | Beerbelott | Oh OK |
| 16:25.48 | fsmithred | all this auth shit has gone through a lot of changes in the past month. I don't know it well, but I understand it's a nasty mess to begin with. |
| 16:26.22 | Beerbelott | systemd is costing the whole world a lot and more to come : |
| 16:26.24 | Beerbelott | :) |
| 16:26.34 | zyliwax | Beerbelott: i actually removed the udev package from my system |
| 16:26.36 | Beerbelott | I'm happy people are fighting it so I definitely won't blame |
| 16:26.46 | Beerbelott | zyliwax: And no downside? |
| 16:26.49 | zyliwax | eudev provides udev, so i envision that it will replace it |
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| 16:27.39 | Beerbelott | Have you rebootd since then? |
| 16:28.07 | zyliwax | Beerbelott: nothing i can notice atm, though this is a pretty fresh headless server install so little chance of breakage in the first place |
| 16:28.39 | zyliwax | Beerbelott: i can give that a whirl, just a sec... |
| 16:28.43 | zyliwax | (the reboot) |
| 16:28.54 | Beerbelott | Yes that's my main concern |
| 16:29.06 | Beerbelott | We are talking a relatively important package if I may :D |
| 16:29.10 | Beerbelott | about* |
| 16:29.41 | Beerbelott | The list of files of the eudev package seems to patch for the lack of udev but nothing certain from my inexperienced eyes |
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| 16:34.07 | zyliwax | Beerbelott: so i just rebooted after purging udev and removing /etc/init.d/udev, and i notice that there are two udev processes running :S |
| 16:34.29 | zyliwax | this may be a separate bug in the eudev package itself, i'm checking my logs for any hints |
| 16:35.34 | zyliwax | restarting the service appears to kill the second udev process |
| 16:36.31 | Beerbelott | You mean restarting the service right after a whole reboot? oO |
| 16:38.26 | zyliwax | Beerbelott: yes, restart > two udev processes > /etc/init.d/eudev restart > one udev process |
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| 16:39.20 | zyliwax | i'm going to see if i can reproduce this error with another reboot |
| 16:40.18 | zyliwax | it did not reproduce, how odd was that? |
| 16:41.35 | zyliwax | i'm going to make a silly change to my one and only rules.d file for network names and see if it's taken up, one sec... |
| 16:43.47 | zyliwax | okay after a reboot, the new iface name did get taken up, but there are once again two udev processes O.o |
| 16:45.09 | zyliwax | oh, that's weird, one of the udev processes disappeared, i guess it just runs temporarily then dies? idk *shrug* |
| 16:47.52 | zyliwax | my personal assessment after all this testing? i think everything is fine and will keep this setup intact (eudev installed, udev NOT installed, /etc/init.d/udev does NOT exit) |
| 16:48.03 | zyliwax | but you can obviously proceed however you wish :) |
| 16:49.26 | nemo | zyliwax: hm. what are you doing? by any chance is it a debian/ubuntu migration to devuan without a clean install? 'cause I've been considering trying that |
| 16:49.31 | nemo | on a server for one |
| 16:50.56 | zyliwax | nemo: are you talking about the wall of text i just now spat out? if so, no, that was all just debugging potential issues with the udev â eudev package migration |
| 16:51.36 | zyliwax | nemo: however, i have done a migration from debian jessie to devuan jessie, it was a little hairy on arm but i imagine x86 would be less problematic |
| 16:52.40 | zyliwax | nemo: also, i wish tridactyl the best of luck, i may give it a try but i'm presuming its UI modification is limited by the WebExtensions spec so i'll probably remain hungry for more :( |
| 16:53.53 | Beerbelott | zyliwax: Thx for your input |
| 16:53.59 | Beerbelott | Cross ur fingers for me ;) |
| 16:54.08 | zyliwax | crosses fingers for Beerbelott |
| 16:54.15 | zyliwax | and it's my pleasure to be of assistance |
| 16:54.55 | nemo | zyliwax: they keep adding to web extensions tho |
| 16:54.58 | nemo | zyliwax: so I'm hopeful |
| 16:55.09 | nemo | I mean. I am shocked that tab panorama web extension is even a thing |
| 16:55.14 | zyliwax | nemo: oh yes i was hopeful about that |
| 16:55.36 | zyliwax | they realized the spec was unnecessarily constrained so they're building it out |
| 16:55.36 | nemo | https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/basic-panorama/ fwiw |
| 16:55.47 | nemo | zyliwax: well. they kinda knew it was - there were a ton of open bugs on it |
| 16:56.01 | nemo | zyliwax: it was more that they'd set a fixed deadline and were unwilling to move on it. perhaps out of desperation |
| 16:56.04 | nemo | marketshare |
| 16:56.16 | nemo | possibly out of feeling they couldn't drag it out |
| 16:56.49 | zyliwax | i would damn well hope so, firefox needs to remain competitive with chrom{e,ium} and its modification potential distinguished it from chrom{e,ium} |
| 16:57.38 | zyliwax | but on that note i will be quite a bit unhappy if chrom{e,ium} now gets to do whatever firefox can and continues draining away its marketshare |
| 16:57.40 | nemo | one way they screwed up the transition was accessibility tools + windows |
| 16:57.49 | nemo | there were massive performance issues |
| 16:57.52 | zyliwax | google mustn't be allowed to rule the web any more than it already does D:< |
| 16:58.05 | nemo | maybe they were hoping that marketshare was small - but several windows users I know had accessibility stuff turned on by accident |
| 16:58.20 | nemo | zyliwax: it's funny how people write articles on the web basically assuming chrome |
| 16:58.25 | zyliwax | oh Windows, not internal firefox accessibility windows :) |
| 16:58.48 | nemo | zyliwax: like there was one the other day that was essentially assuming DOM render trees that chrome uses - firefox flattens to list so has none of the issues with tree performance |
| 16:58.57 | zyliwax | and speaking of gentoo compiles, i often start partying with lynx during them 8) |
| 16:59.07 | nemo | zyliwax: I kinda suspect that chrome stupidity is why they altered the CSS2 spec, breaking a website of mine years ago |
| 16:59.11 | nemo | is still resentful of that |
| 16:59.30 | nemo | they spun it as a "good thing" ignoring apple/microsoft/mozilla all going "uh, are you on crack?" |
| 16:59.45 | zyliwax | hoo boy when microsoft is on the right side... |
| 16:59.48 | nemo | luckily it was a relatively minor breakage of CSS2, but still annoying |
| 17:00.08 | nemo | then there was how they pushed out SPDY on us, using entire web as their beta program |
| 17:00.18 | nemo | and then later. oh crap CRIME attack |
| 17:00.49 | nemo | not even clear it has that big of wins over HTTP 1.1 if you are using pipelining - and only reason pipelining didn't take off was stupid servers, not need for a new spec |
| 17:01.11 | nemo | zyliwax: oh. and I use w3m personally |
| 17:01.17 | nemo | I find it has a more user friendly navigation/UI |
| 17:01.35 | nemo | currently have 27 tabs open in w3m |
| 17:03.14 | zyliwax | nemo: i've used w3m and i do like it |
| 17:03.40 | zyliwax | iirc it had trouble rendering pages in my multiplexer, i believe it had something to do with its support for images not playing nicely |
| 17:05.01 | zyliwax | oh and i was also under the belief that it was unmaintained, but it looks like there are maintained forks available |
| 17:05.12 | zyliwax | i would prefer portage manage them, though... hmm... |
| 17:11.29 | *** join/#devuan Akuli (~Akuli@mobile-access-5d6a5c-89.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 17:35.34 | fsmithred | tabs? |
| 17:38.14 | *** join/#devuan dev1noob (d8907440@gateway/web/freenode/ip.216.144.116.64) |
| 17:39.18 | dev1noob | Anyone knows of a network management tool that does not requires dbus? |
| 17:39.46 | buZz | wicd? |
| 17:39.53 | Fervi | or wicd-curses, hmm |
| 17:39.56 | buZz | not sure if that depends on dbus |
| 17:40.13 | dev1noob | According to apt, yes |
| 17:40.21 | buZz | how about connman ? |
| 17:40.32 | Fervi | fervi@Renzan:~/nudity/nudity$ LANG=en_GB apt-cache depends wicd-gtk |
| 17:40.32 | Fervi | wicd-gtk |
| 17:40.32 | Fervi | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:40.32 | Fervi | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:40.32 | Fervi | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:40.33 | Fervi | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:40.33 | Fervi | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:40.34 | Fervi | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:40.34 | Fervi | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:40.34 | Fervi | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:40.35 | Fervi | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:40.36 | Fervi | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:40.53 | buZz | Fervi: and the server? |
| 17:41.29 | dev1noob | wicd-daemon is requiring dbus |
| 17:41.45 | dev1noob | (via python-dbus) |
| 17:42.04 | Fervi | hmm, maybe use command line :D |
| 17:42.36 | buZz | dev1noob: and connman ? |
| 17:43.03 | dev1noob | @buZz connman managed to install, but now I have no more network access |
| 17:43.45 | dev1noob | What is connman's cmdline tool |
| 17:43.45 | buZz | thats progress :D |
| 17:43.52 | buZz | afaik just 'connman' |
| 17:44.22 | buZz | connmanctl |
| 17:44.26 | buZz | https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/ConnMan |
| 17:46.01 | fsmithred | pretty sure setnet does not require dbus |
| 17:47.01 | fsmithred | it's in experimental |
| 17:48.18 | buZz | does wpa-cli require it? |
| 17:49.31 | *** join/#devuan Tuor (~Tuor@unaffiliated/tuor) |
| 17:51.53 | fsmithred | buZz, what package is it part of? |
| 17:53.40 | buZz | wpasupplican, afaik |
| 17:54.07 | buZz | wpa_cli , sorry |
| 17:54.17 | fsmithred | I see libdbus-1-3 is needed, but it doesn't list dbus |
| 17:54.40 | fsmithred | that lib recommends dbus |
| 18:01.31 | dev1noob | it looks like connman is semi-broken without dbus |
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| 18:02.41 | dev1noob | from Connman Source |
| 18:02.44 | dev1noob | In order to compile Connection Manager you need following software packages: - GCC compiler - GLib library - D-Bus library - IP-Tables library (for tethering support) - GnuTLS library (optional) - PolicyKit (optional) - readline (command line client) |
| 18:03.29 | Tuor | Hi, is there a usable devuan with KDE Plasma 5? |
| 18:04.33 | fsmithred | Tuor, ascii has kde5, and it seems to be working |
| 18:04.52 | fsmithred | there are beta installer isos for ascii at devuan.org |
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| 18:08.03 | dev1noob | There's no setnet package ;( |
| 18:08.34 | Tuor | fsmithred: is there a torrent? I would love to test it! |
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| 18:12.42 | Tuor | I downloaded from a mirror. I can't find any torrent. |
| 18:15.15 | fsmithred | yeah, I don't think there are any torrents of the beta |
| 18:15.26 | fsmithred | dev1noob, setnet is in experimental |
| 18:15.59 | fsmithred | deb http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan experimental main |
| 18:16.23 | fsmithred | add that line to /etc/apt/sources.list and then apt update and apt install setnet |
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| 18:17.15 | fsmithred | sorry, 'apt -t experimental install setnet' (apt, apt-get or aptitude will work) |
| 18:17.37 | dev1noob | @fsmithred does it works with ascii release? |
| 18:19.01 | fsmithred | I think so |
| 18:19.12 | fsmithred | it's pretty simple |
| 18:19.20 | KatolaZ | dev1noob: setnet is still in experimental |
| 18:19.28 | KatolaZ | I will build a new version for ascii |
| 18:19.32 | KatolaZ | hopefully soon |
| 18:19.34 | fsmithred | KatolaZ, is it buggy or just lacking in features? |
| 18:19.45 | KatolaZ | the version in experimental has one bug |
| 18:19.49 | fsmithred | or neither - it's worked fine when I've used it |
| 18:19.51 | KatolaZ | with ESSID containing white spaces |
| 18:20.01 | fsmithred | ew, spaces |
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| 18:23.30 | dev1noob | What is setnet's cmdline tool? |
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| 18:27.02 | KatolaZ | dev1noob: setnet is based on dialog |
| 18:27.13 | KatolaZ | it can use net-tools or ip |
| 18:27.18 | KatolaZ | and iwconfig or iw |
| 18:28.00 | dev1noob | But what command should I type to use setnet |
| 18:28.14 | KatolaZ | setnet.sh |
| 18:28.24 | dev1noob | where is it? |
| 18:28.41 | KatolaZ | apt-get -t experimental install setnet |
| 18:28.42 | dev1noob | nvm |
| 18:28.48 | dev1noob | got it |
| 18:34.24 | dev1noob | setnet bugs when trying to add a wireless network |
| 18:36.25 | *** join/#devuan system16 (~system16@unaffiliated/system16) |
| 18:37.27 | dev1noob | the bug seems to be intermittent, it now works |
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| 18:43.27 | fugitive_ | just curious, what's setnet ? |
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| 18:46.07 | KatolaZ | dev1noob: the version in experimental has a known bug |
| 18:46.11 | dev1noob | a network manager |
| 18:46.14 | KatolaZ | with ESSID that contain spaces |
| 18:46.34 | KatolaZ | I am uploading a new version that fixes that one among other glitches |
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| 18:47.24 | dev1noob | Is the spaces bug happening when scaning for networks? |
| 18:47.37 | KatolaZ | dev1noob: ? |
| 18:47.52 | KatolaZ | it's happening when you select a network whose ESSID has spaces |
| 18:48.18 | dev1noob | It's not my case |
| 18:49.12 | dev1noob | My problem occurs anytime after boot and before a wpa-supplicant restert |
| 18:49.42 | dev1noob | If I restart, scanning starts to work |
| 18:49.56 | dev1noob | same for the list of networks in enable |
| 18:51.27 | KatolaZ | dev1noob: you must restart wpa_supplicant |
| 18:51.41 | KatolaZ | if it is started with a different config file |
| 18:52.44 | dev1noob | What config sile could it possibly be? |
| 18:53.19 | dev1noob | "/etc/network/interfaces" ? |
| 18:53.32 | KatolaZ | dev1noob: it's the wpa_supplicant config file |
| 18:54.04 | KatolaZ | (we are talking about restarting wpa_supplicant....) |
| 18:54.25 | KatolaZ | when you install wpa_supplicant, it gets started automatically |
| 18:54.28 | KatolaZ | in runlevel 2 |
| 18:54.45 | KatolaZ | by default, setnet provides an alternative config file for wpa_supplicant |
| 18:54.52 | KatolaZ | that's why you need to restart it |
| 18:55.00 | dev1noob | how can I find the "rogue" config? |
| 18:55.02 | KatolaZ | it's explained in the manpage |
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| 18:57.53 | dev1noob | I'm a bit puzzled by all this |
| 18:58.06 | KatolaZ | dev1noob: what puzzles you? |
| 18:58.24 | dev1noob | The config file thing |
| 18:58.41 | dev1noob | I'm using a fresh devuan ascii install |
| 18:58.51 | dev1noob | less than 2hours |
| 18:59.28 | dev1noob | I don't have a "custom" wpa_supplicant config |
| 18:59.36 | KatolaZ | dev1noob: have you read the manpage of setnet? |
| 18:59.51 | dev1noob | and the only one I can find is the setnet one |
| 18:59.55 | dev1noob | yup |
| 19:00.19 | KatolaZ | dev1noob: what do you have in /etc/wpa_supplicant/ ? |
| 19:00.57 | KatolaZ | setnet cannot overwrite the default config file used by wpa_supplicant |
| 19:01.07 | KatolaZ | because that belongs to the package wpasupplicant |
| 19:01.18 | KatolaZ | so it has to ship a different config file |
| 19:01.21 | KatolaZ | for wpa |
| 19:01.42 | dev1noob | "action_wpa.sh" "functions.sh" "ifupdown.sh" "wpa_setnet.conf" |
| 19:01.56 | KatolaZ | ok |
| 19:02.05 | KatolaZ | then run setnet |
| 19:02.38 | KatolaZ | and restart wpa_supplicant from within the "MAnage Wifi Networking" menu |
| 19:03.47 | dev1noob | that works, but I have to do it every reboot |
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| 19:05.22 | KatolaZ | dev1noob: how often do you reboot? |
| 19:05.24 | KatolaZ | :) |
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| 19:05.34 | KatolaZ | I mean, if your network config is static |
| 19:05.41 | KatolaZ | just use setnet to configure it |
| 19:05.57 | KatolaZ | and then instruct wpa_supplicant to use the file created by setnet |
| 19:06.07 | KatolaZ | setnet is not a smart tool |
| 19:06.21 | KatolaZ | smart tool work well in common cases |
| 19:06.32 | KatolaZ | and fail otherwise |
| 19:06.38 | KatolaZ | setnet works in the same way, in all cases |
| 19:06.46 | okf | Ciao! I am trying to put devuan in italian by default and I just cannot figure it out? Can someone help me, it shouldn't be so hard |
| 19:07.04 | KatolaZ | okf: dpkg-reconfigure locales |
| 19:07.45 | dev1noob | Laptop level of reboot |
| 19:08.06 | KatolaZ | dev1noob: $ uptime 19:07:53 up 33 days, 9:52, 67 users, load average: 1.81, 1.60, 1.62 |
| 19:08.14 | KatolaZ | this is my laptop.... |
| 19:08.32 | KatolaZ | and it's 33 days because the clip of the battery is off |
| 19:08.38 | KatolaZ | and fails every now and then |
| 19:08.40 | KatolaZ | .... |
| 19:08.49 | KatolaZ | the average uptime is 150-200 days |
| 19:08.57 | KatolaZ | (for me) |
| 19:09.14 | okf | it didn't work |
| 19:09.14 | dev1noob | how can I instruct wpa_supplicant to use wpa_setnet.conf |
| 19:09.43 | KatolaZ | dev1noob: just link wpa_supplicant.conf to wpa_setnet.conf |
| 19:09.58 | KatolaZ | okf: are you using a DE? |
| 19:10.06 | dev1noob | symlink? |
| 19:10.12 | okf | xfce I guess. it looks like |
| 19:10.17 | okf | it is by default |
| 19:10.30 | KatolaZ | okf: then you should configure the language at login |
| 19:10.35 | KatolaZ | fsmithred: ^^^^^ |
| 19:10.42 | KatolaZ | fsmithred: that's your cookie |
| 19:10.44 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 19:12.07 | okf | I haven't any option there |
| 19:12.19 | okf | I am laughing about that |
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| 19:12.37 | okf | :) |
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| 19:12.41 | KatolaZ | okf: if it makes you feel better... :) |
| 19:13.24 | okf | it does |
| 19:13.42 | okf | I will look for some package in synaptic, maybe it does the trick |
| 19:13.54 | fsmithred | back |
| 19:14.25 | fsmithred | okf, are you using lightdm or slim? |
| 19:14.32 | okf | by the way it is a good project |
| 19:15.12 | KatolaZ | okf: ^^^^^ |
| 19:15.30 | fsmithred | you want to have one user log in with different language on different occasions, or you want different users to each have a different language that doesn't change? |
| 19:17.51 | fsmithred | lightdm and lxdm have a language selector. slim does not. And you probably have slim, since it's the default. |
| 19:17.54 | fsmithred | brb |
| 19:18.11 | okf | you got it |
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| 19:22.05 | okf | cool I've installed lightdm |
| 19:22.15 | okf | and I log in with italian language! |
| 19:22.20 | okf | ty |
| 19:24.51 | mmaglis | Hi. Is it verified by anyone else that now xserver runs with user privileges without xserver-xorg-legacy, polkit, elogind? At least with startx from console. |
| 19:27.09 | fsmithred | mmaglis, yes, I can verify it, but I need to install elogind and libpam-elogind |
| 19:27.30 | fsmithred | in fact, startx seems to be the only way I can run X as user |
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| 19:28.39 | mmaglis | fsmithred: what GUI do you run with it? I use openbox and i3 and I do not need elogind. |
| 19:30.13 | dev1noob | KatolaZ: Symlinking does not help |
| 19:31.11 | mmaglis | For DM, I need to test this with either xdm or wdm. These are the only ones, I think, with no dependencies on dbus, elogind. |
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| 19:34.28 | fsmithred | I'm using openbox on that setup |
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| 19:37.06 | mmaglis | fsmithred: I will test xdm shortly with openbox and get back with the results. |
| 19:37.22 | fsmithred | thanks |
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| 20:23.01 | mmaglis | fsmithred: When using xdm, xserver starts with root user. Normal login into openbox/i3 is possible without elogind, polkits,dbus. |
| 20:23.40 | mmaglis | xserver-xorg-legacy is also not present, as I mentioned earlier. |
| 20:34.07 | okf | Ciao! I am trying to make a custom distro.. I can't find /etc/lsb_release file. Were grub is pointing to? |
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| 21:19.18 | fsmithred | okf, grub has a complex algorithm for determining the distro name. You can just create /etc/lsb-release file |
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| 22:47.13 | test_ | Hi, can you check whenever GSM/3G works with Devuan before new release? Jessi didn't (well, maye form CLI I didn't test) work. Obviously wicd can't handle modems, then I tried ofono+connman and then I tried Networkmanager. The Modem was found/ activated but no network connection could be established. |
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