| 00:01.03 | *** join/#devuan sedrosken__ (~sedrosken@static-204-62-58-150.ptr.shelbybb.com) |
| 00:03.00 | *** join/#devuan Uberius (~Uberius@gateway/tor-sasl/uberius) |
| 00:26.19 | *** join/#devuan merzbow (~bat@rrcs-64-183-56-162.west.biz.rr.com) |
| 00:30.11 | merzbow | is there ncurses-devel for devuan somewhere? |
| 00:46.33 | *** join/#devuan nighty- (~nighty@kyotolabs.asahinet.com) |
| 00:50.20 | merzbow | oh, it was libncurses5-dev |
| 01:07.00 | *** join/#devuan Uberius (~Uberius@gateway/tor-sasl/uberius) |
| 01:07.28 | *** join/#devuan fleeky (~fleeky@75-101-60-65.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com) |
| 01:19.26 | *** join/#devuan infobot (ibot@rikers.org) |
| 01:19.26 | *** topic/#devuan is Recent (2017-05-25): Jessie 1.0.0 stable release http://ur1.ca/qxaa5 || This is the Devuan https://devuan.org/ discussion channel (logged at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan - with useful 'search') | Please take off-topic conversation to #debianfork | /msg chanserv info #devuan | !listkeys #devuan <foo> | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ |
| 01:19.26 | *** mode/#devuan [+v infobot] by ChanServ |
| 01:25.14 | *** join/#devuan bazquxer (~bazquxer@gateway/tor-sasl/bazquxer) |
| 01:55.24 | *** join/#devuan konsolebox (~konsolebo@110.54.191.122) |
| 02:04.34 | *** join/#devuan theLambda (~theLambda@88.130.62.122) |
| 02:10.44 | *** join/#devuan g4570n (~g4570n@unaffiliated/g4570n) |
| 02:15.57 | *** join/#devuan Tom-_ (~tomg@64-7-147-200.agas1a-dynamic.dsl.sentex.ca) |
| 02:27.27 | *** join/#devuan Humpelst1lzchen (erik@p4FD0383D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 02:43.40 | *** join/#devuan Hoshpak (~Hoshpak@200116b800a82f00004109fffe40d1e1.dip.versatel-1u1.de) |
| 02:45.05 | *** join/#devuan skyroveRR (~skyroveRR@unaffiliated/skyroverr) |
| 03:48.08 | *** join/#devuan Uberius (~Uberius@gateway/tor-sasl/uberius) |
| 03:52.31 | *** join/#devuan furrywolf (~furrywolf@172.58.43.108) |
| 03:57.29 | *** join/#devuan ThurahT (~ThurahT@2a01:7c8:aab8:6b9:5054:ff:fec9:fd84) |
| 04:13.57 | *** join/#devuan Tom-_ (~tomg@64-7-147-200.agas1a-dynamic.dsl.sentex.ca) |
| 04:31.33 | *** join/#devuan hellvis_ (~root@dslb-188-109-232-162.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de) |
| 04:35.20 | *** join/#devuan sepisoad (~sepisoad@5.202.189.42) |
| 04:35.44 | *** join/#devuan sepisoad (~sepisoad@5.202.189.42) |
| 04:37.56 | *** join/#devuan AlexLikeRock (~AlexLikeR@unaffiliated/alexlikerock) |
| 04:41.12 | *** join/#devuan amarsh04 (~amarsh04@ppp118-210-150-203.bras1.adl6.internode.on.net) |
| 04:58.04 | *** join/#devuan Nematocyst (~eric@174-28-93-229.albq.qwest.net) |
| 05:01.46 | *** join/#devuan Uberius (~Uberius@gateway/tor-sasl/uberius) |
| 05:02.13 | *** join/#devuan Uberius (~Uberius@gateway/tor-sasl/uberius) |
| 05:02.42 | *** join/#devuan Uberius (~Uberius@gateway/tor-sasl/uberius) |
| 05:02.55 | *** join/#devuan Tom-_ (~tomg@64-7-147-200.agas1a-dynamic.dsl.sentex.ca) |
| 05:03.10 | *** join/#devuan Uberius (~Uberius@gateway/tor-sasl/uberius) |
| 05:03.39 | *** join/#devuan Uberius (~Uberius@gateway/tor-sasl/uberius) |
| 05:04.05 | *** join/#devuan Uberius (~Uberius@gateway/tor-sasl/uberius) |
| 05:04.31 | *** join/#devuan Uberius (~Uberius@gateway/tor-sasl/uberius) |
| 05:19.04 | *** join/#devuan n4dir (~user@200116b868a91b00021a4bfffe4896d9.dip.versatel-1u1.de) |
| 05:21.23 | AlexLikeRock | well-.... |
| 05:21.38 | AlexLikeRock | <PROTECTED> |
| 05:21.41 | AlexLikeRock | bye bye |
| 05:46.23 | *** join/#devuan Irrwahn_pi_ (~Irrwahn@p5797D98A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 05:47.47 | *** join/#devuan Xenguy (~Xenguy@unaffiliated/xenguy) |
| 06:05.03 | *** join/#devuan chillfan (~chillfan@unaffiliated/chillfan) |
| 06:45.04 | *** join/#devuan skyroveRR (~skyroveRR@unaffiliated/skyroverr) |
| 07:05.56 | *** join/#devuan Besnik_b (~Besnik@ppp-94-66-221-177.home.otenet.gr) |
| 07:31.18 | *** join/#devuan amesser (d58a2122@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.138.33.34) |
| 08:07.17 | *** join/#devuan Madda (~Madda@2-228-92-98.ip190.fastwebnet.it) |
| 08:18.05 | *** join/#devuan GoatAvenger (~GoatAveng@unaffiliated/goatavenger) |
| 08:34.12 | *** join/#devuan sedrosken (~sedrosken@static-204-62-58-150.ptr.shelbybb.com) |
| 08:45.26 | *** join/#devuan knidos (~knidos@88.245.76.81) |
| 08:53.19 | *** join/#devuan clemens3 (~clemens@mx.eniso-partners.com) |
| 08:59.21 | *** join/#devuan AntoFox (~Thunderbi@dynamic-adsl-78-12-48-123.clienti.tiscali.it) |
| 09:01.19 | *** join/#devuan athidhep (~athidhep@S0106602ad06acd48.vc.shawcable.net) |
| 09:01.19 | *** join/#devuan athidhep (~athidhep@unaffiliated/athidhep) |
| 09:13.17 | *** join/#devuan s_kunk (~s_kunk@146.255.174.104) |
| 09:13.17 | *** join/#devuan s_kunk (~s_kunk@unaffiliated/s-kunk/x-5139101) |
| 09:15.56 | *** join/#devuan sedrosken_ (~sedrosken@static-204-62-58-150.ptr.shelbybb.com) |
| 09:18.56 | *** join/#devuan Tom-_ (~tomg@64-7-147-200.agas1a-dynamic.dsl.sentex.ca) |
| 09:20.48 | *** join/#devuan chomwitt (~chomwitt@2a02:587:dc08:a00:9d6c:1d0c:2780:b73f) |
| 09:39.31 | *** join/#devuan sardonico (~ale@217-133-28-65.static.clienti.tiscali.it) |
| 09:41.19 | *** join/#devuan thaller (~thaller@2001:a61:425:9200:b8c8:fb9:6007:e9e7) |
| 09:45.26 | *** join/#devuan cocoadaemon (~foo@91.194.61.198) |
| 09:49.10 | *** join/#devuan metax (~metax@gateway/tor-sasl/metax) |
| 09:49.19 | *** join/#devuan mhc (~Error0@203-59-177-66.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 09:58.40 | *** join/#devuan chillfan (~chillfan@unaffiliated/chillfan) |
| 10:03.12 | *** join/#devuan hellvis (~root@dslb-188-109-232-162.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de) |
| 10:04.32 | *** join/#devuan fugitive (~fugitive@router31.nl.rapidseedbox.com) |
| 10:18.43 | *** join/#devuan Drugo (~Drugo@62-11-1-95.dialup.tiscali.it) |
| 10:26.50 | *** join/#devuan ejr (~ejr2@80-108-134-13.cable.dynamic.surfer.at) |
| 10:40.48 | *** join/#devuan ejr (~ejr2@80-108-134-13.cable.dynamic.surfer.at) |
| 10:47.17 | *** join/#devuan sepisoad (~sepisoad@5.202.189.42) |
| 10:47.19 | *** join/#devuan telmich (~deadghost@gpm/telmich) |
| 10:48.31 | *** join/#devuan markong (~marco@199.19.94.126) |
| 11:03.45 | *** join/#devuan AntoFox (~Thunderbi@dynamic-adsl-78-12-48-123.clienti.tiscali.it) |
| 11:05.40 | *** join/#devuan jback (~jasper@shell.jhq.io) |
| 11:06.59 | *** part/#devuan jback (~jasper@shell.jhq.io) |
| 11:26.30 | *** join/#devuan skyroveRR (~skyroveRR@unaffiliated/skyroverr) |
| 11:28.52 | *** join/#devuan ferdy- (~ferdy@funtoo/contrib/ferdy-) |
| 11:34.35 | *** join/#devuan DarkUranium (~DarkUrani@77.38.34.248) |
| 11:35.55 | *** join/#devuan ferdy- (~ferdy@funtoo/contrib/ferdy-) |
| 11:41.05 | *** join/#devuan m0sin (~m0sin@133.241.159.143.dyn.plus.net) |
| 11:48.09 | *** join/#devuan hightower3 (~hightower@89-164-110-180.dsl.iskon.hr) |
| 11:58.58 | *** join/#devuan zer0def (~zer0def@91.134.249.63) |
| 12:02.41 | *** join/#devuan ejr (~ejr2@80-108-134-13.cable.dynamic.surfer.at) |
| 12:05.56 | *** join/#devuan Achylles (~Achylles@2804:431:d725:27c1:bcc0:7328:52c5:e7b7) |
| 12:28.14 | *** join/#devuan sepisoad (~sepisoad@5.202.189.42) |
| 12:40.20 | *** join/#devuan romo (~romo@unaffiliated/romo) |
| 12:40.39 | *** join/#devuan skyroveRR (~skyroveRR@unaffiliated/skyroverr) |
| 12:44.00 | *** join/#devuan justinsm (~justinsm@82-69-63-196.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) |
| 13:12.22 | *** join/#devuan sepisoad (~sepisoad@5.202.189.42) |
| 13:13.14 | *** join/#devuan clemens3 (~clemens@mx.eniso-partners.com) |
| 13:36.03 | *** join/#devuan thehornet (~a0225280@192.91.75.30) |
| 13:37.14 | *** join/#devuan eliasr (uid27497@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jiqxauirsyvktjne) |
| 13:48.18 | *** join/#devuan nighty- (~nighty@s229123.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) |
| 13:54.53 | *** join/#devuan nighty- (~nighty@s229123.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) |
| 13:57.59 | *** join/#devuan AntoFox (~Thunderbi@dynamic-adsl-78-12-48-123.clienti.tiscali.it) |
| 14:06.24 | *** join/#devuan freemangordon_ (~ivo@195.242.126.12) |
| 14:14.39 | *** join/#devuan n4dir (~user@200116b868a91b00021a4bfffe4896d9.dip.versatel-1u1.de) |
| 14:16.41 | *** join/#devuan thaller (~thaller@2001:a61:425:9200:31fd:303b:5260:7928) |
| 14:21.52 | *** join/#devuan bazquxer (~bazquxer@gateway/tor-sasl/bazquxer) |
| 14:25.35 | *** join/#devuan Drugo (~Drugo@62-11-1-95.dialup.tiscali.it) |
| 14:30.20 | *** join/#devuan niko (~niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko) |
| 14:31.23 | *** join/#devuan skyroveRR (~skyroveRR@unaffiliated/skyroverr) |
| 14:32.27 | *** join/#devuan blop (~blop@p54BEFA6F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 14:50.58 | *** join/#devuan ToffeeYogurtPots (~ToffeeYog@gateway/tor-sasl/toffeeyogurtpots) |
| 14:54.35 | *** join/#devuan blitzed (~blitzed@148.59.234.78) |
| 14:54.49 | *** join/#devuan targz (~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/targz) |
| 15:07.27 | *** join/#devuan Not_a_Robot (~soul@91.100.217.199.generic-hostname.arrownet.dk) |
| 15:19.37 | *** join/#devuan IoFran (~Thunderbi@200.68.141.5) |
| 15:21.49 | *** join/#devuan TemporalBeing1 (~Ben_Meyer@172-6-231-225.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net) |
| 15:28.08 | *** join/#devuan TemporalBeing1 (~Ben_Meyer@72.32.180.182) |
| 15:30.56 | *** join/#devuan skyroveRR (~skyroveRR@unaffiliated/skyroverr) |
| 15:38.36 | *** join/#devuan Tom___ (5c13e83a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.19.232.58) |
| 15:39.26 | *** join/#devuan clemens3 (~clemens@mx.eniso-partners.com) |
| 15:39.29 | Tom___ | Does devuan have an official policy against including proprietary software? |
| 15:40.41 | *** join/#devuan mag` (~user@p508EA8AB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 15:43.37 | gnarface | Tom___: no, but it's all segregated into non-free just like in debian |
| 15:44.00 | *** join/#devuan obeardly (~obeardly@12.153.3.33) |
| 15:44.20 | gnarface | if you didn't include it at install time, you can still modify your /etc/apt/sources.list to add it |
| 15:45.42 | Tom___ | gnarface: i was just wondering why there was no such policy. |
| 15:46.16 | gnarface | lots of hardware with open-source drivers still requires non-free firmware |
| 15:46.42 | gnarface | including it in a separate repository section allows users to omit such software without punishing users who need it |
| 15:46.48 | Tom___ | gnarface: but is there a policy to always keep is segregated? |
| 15:46.52 | Tom___ | it* |
| 15:47.00 | Tom___ | outside of main |
| 15:47.27 | gnarface | i don't know officially but i can't imagine a possible reason they'd change that |
| 15:47.45 | Tom___ | gnarface: i cant ether i just like having it in writing |
| 15:48.34 | gnarface | i would assume the official stance is probably that they'll just keep it how debian has it unless debian does something stupider |
| 15:48.57 | gnarface | (in which case, a discussion will likely begin on how to undo the damage) |
| 15:48.57 | fsmithred | 1+ gnarface |
| 15:49.19 | fsmithred | I don't think we have a lot of written-down policy |
| 15:50.21 | fsmithred | but the general theme is to provide debian without systemd |
| 15:50.40 | fsmithred | change as little as needed |
| 15:51.38 | fsmithred | devuan repo pulls from debian and replaces the packages that have been modified |
| 15:51.59 | fsmithred | so whatever debian does with their repo affects devuan |
| 15:52.32 | fsmithred | as gnarface said, if they do something stupid, devuan may be motivated to change/fix it. |
| 16:04.58 | *** join/#devuan ejr (~ejr2@80-108-134-13.cable.dynamic.surfer.at) |
| 16:09.20 | *** join/#devuan g4570n (~g4570n@unaffiliated/g4570n) |
| 16:09.35 | *** join/#devuan Uberius (~Uberius@gateway/tor-sasl/uberius) |
| 16:11.01 | *** join/#devuan Tom-_ (~tomg@64-7-147-200.agas1a-dynamic.dsl.sentex.ca) |
| 16:17.51 | mag` | fsmithred: shadowing Debian, without systemd, is likely a realistic short-term goal for Devuan. Do you see this working long-term? |
| 16:22.14 | fsmithred | mag`, that has come up in discussion, and we understand that things may change drastically enough for devuan to change the current model. But there are no plans for that right now. |
| 16:23.36 | *** join/#devuan _0bitcount (~Big_Byte@2a01:c50e:8821:4200:f991:f825:d4a8:c65a) |
| 16:23.46 | *** join/#devuan gnarface (~gnarface@108-227-52-42.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 16:23.48 | n4dir | the bless of debian, it's good handling of packages and mainly dependencies, in a binary form, might become a curse with that in mind |
| 16:23.58 | n4dir | i for one don't hold my breath. |
| 16:27.50 | detha | How much work it is to de-systemd debian packages is not really something dependent on debian, but more on its upstreams. The more developets assume that the systemd paraphernalia will be there, the more effort to undo that assumption |
| 16:28.22 | detha | Granted, debian is not going to do anything to help. But it shouldn't make it more difficult. |
| 16:28.46 | fsmithred | I think there are cases where debian has made it more difficult |
| 16:29.01 | fsmithred | maybe not intentionally |
| 16:30.15 | n4dir | as there are still distros where you can easily avoid systemd, i am not sure if it really is a upstream problem. |
| 16:32.00 | detha | It is. All non-systemd distributions (both linux and *bsd) are having to spend more and more effort to undo upstream's assumptions about the environment things run in |
| 16:32.58 | detha | (and then one gets oddball stuff like smokeping. I had a look at the latest. That is a true nightmare to package) |
| 16:37.09 | *** join/#devuan Pali (~pali@Maemo/community/contributor/Pali) |
| 16:38.13 | *** join/#devuan topro (~prousa@ds9.caetec.de) |
| 16:38.42 | mag` | It is important a strong alternative to exist so that upstream projects do not align to a systemd monoculture. If the alternative is marginalised, then the alternative will be fighting the same battle GNU/Linux was fighting against Windows mainstream earlier. |
| 16:38.47 | topro | Irrwahn: ping |
| 16:39.06 | topro | its about elogind feedback |
| 16:42.34 | *** join/#devuan g4570n (~g4570n@unaffiliated/g4570n) |
| 16:49.33 | *** join/#devuan Schallaven (~Schallave@grad338-038.resnet.yorku.ca) |
| 17:10.59 | *** join/#devuan Akuli (~Akuli@mobile-access-5d6ac9-252.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 17:11.15 | *** join/#devuan ymasson (~ymasson@LFbn-1-8899-115.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 17:11.25 | clemens3 | linux might fragment.. which is maybe good.. mainstream linux, something else? |
| 17:14.25 | *** join/#devuan ToffeeYogurtPots (~ToffeeYog@gateway/tor-sasl/toffeeyogurtpots) |
| 17:18.48 | *** join/#devuan RedAcor (~RedAcor@gateway/tor-sasl/redacor) |
| 17:20.54 | topro | mag`: I'm afraid we're already there. i.e. openproject debian packages stripped support for sysvinit, only systemd (still you can simply fix it by adding sysvinit files from packages built for wheezy). of course don't provide dedicated devuan packages (what a strong alternative would imply). so... gives devuan admin a tough time. just one example of what I more and more begin to experience. |
| 17:21.27 | *** join/#devuan _0bitcount (~Big_Byte@2a01:c50e:8821:4200:f991:f825:d4a8:c65a) |
| 17:24.03 | *** join/#devuan metax (~metax@gateway/tor-sasl/metax) |
| 17:26.08 | *** join/#devuan tomlukeywood (~tom@host-92-19-232-58.static.as13285.net) |
| 17:26.49 | *** join/#devuan g4570n (~g4570n@unaffiliated/g4570n) |
| 17:26.51 | *** join/#devuan giricz81 (~giricz81@ip4-83-240-38-90.cust.nbox.cz) |
| 17:35.20 | blop | 'openproject' |
| 17:35.26 | blop | wer sind die denn |
| 17:36.41 | mag` | topro: if that is, more and more, the case, then perhaps Devuan needs to package from upstream and "lobby" them to support non-systemd systems. Is Devuan's manpower enough to pull this? My previous "strong alternative" comment meant a "main stream" distro with the clout/recognition similar to the others. |
| 17:37.14 | *** join/#devuan rsx (~rsx@ppp-46-244-240-70.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 17:40.25 | *** join/#devuan yandoogle (~Mutter@78-106-70-125.broadband.corbina.ru) |
| 17:43.22 | *** join/#devuan sgage (~sgage@h69-131-115-171.cntcnh.dsl.dynamic.tds.net) |
| 17:44.03 | sgage | Is there a simple listing somewhere of packages that have to be reworked/repackaged for Devuan? |
| 17:44.40 | sgage | I really don't have a great sense of the magnitude of the task - I'm sure it's getting larger though... |
| 17:46.58 | fsmithred | sgage, look at pkgmaster.devuan.org for some text files |
| 17:52.21 | Irrwahn | topro: Sorry, I'm a bit busy ATM, not much time today. What was your question/feedback about elogind? |
| 17:54.52 | gnu_srs1 | Is Evilham still active? Somebody asked the other day. And I don't see many comments from parazyd any longer. |
| 17:55.17 | *** join/#devuan menip (~menip@c-73-83-2-241.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 17:55.25 | parazyd | i'm lurking |
| 17:55.42 | golinux | Just heard this morning that he is very busy and will be back soon. |
| 17:56.04 | golinux | he = Evilham |
| 17:58.21 | *** join/#devuan mag`` (~user@p508EA8AB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 17:58.40 | *** join/#devuan ToffeeYogurtPots (~ToffeeYog@gateway/tor-sasl/toffeeyogurtpots) |
| 17:58.41 | sgage | fsmithred: thanks for the pointer - I'll do some poking around. Looks like a lot |
| 17:59.09 | gnu_srs1 | OK; good to hear. And hello parazyd :) |
| 18:01.11 | *** join/#devuan mmaglis (~user@p508EA8AB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 18:08.00 | *** join/#devuan pillepalle (~Thunderbi@ip-109-90-187-181.hsi11.unitymediagroup.de) |
| 18:08.01 | fsmithred | sgage, those lists might not be fully up-to-date |
| 18:10.10 | sgage | fsmithred, they're up-to-date enough to give me an idea of the scope of things. |
| 18:11.35 | sgage | A bit more than I thought |
| 18:12.20 | fsmithred | a lot of packages require libsystemd0, and most of them won't be changed. Too much for the number of people maintaining packages. |
| 18:12.37 | fsmithred | and purely cosmetic, anyway |
| 18:12.54 | golinux | for now. That could change |
| 18:13.11 | fsmithred | any of it could change |
| 18:13.45 | golinux | We do need more worker bees to get rid of this annoying but currently benign cruft. |
| 18:13.46 | jonadab | I was hoping that Devuan would eventually entirely displace Debian as the distro that most other distros are derived from. |
| 18:14.08 | *** join/#devuan Uberius (~Uberius@gateway/tor-sasl/uberius) |
| 18:14.08 | golinux | Only time will tell. |
| 18:15.45 | sgage | I understand, fsr. golinux: I wish I was able to be of more help. I am somewhat disabled, with poor eyesight. I will find a way, though. |
| 18:16.42 | golinux | Oh, that wasn't meant for you sgage. |
| 18:17.32 | sgage | No, I didn't feel singled out - I just really do wish I could help with packaging or something. Maybe someday I'll be able to. |
| 18:17.38 | golinux | Even I don't go there. Way above my paygrade. LOL! |
| 18:17.52 | sgage | :-) |
| 18:18.01 | golinux | And capabilities. |
| 18:18.39 | fsmithred | testing and reporting is a great way to help |
| 18:18.43 | sgage | I am sure the entire staff at Devuan justifies their enormous salaries! |
| 18:19.01 | golinux | Indeed we do |
| 18:19.03 | *** join/#devuan metax (~metax@gateway/tor-sasl/metax) |
| 18:19.16 | sgage | fsmithred, I am going to try to test and report a little more systematically in future. |
| 18:19.29 | fsmithred | :) |
| 18:20.31 | *** join/#devuan hgunth (~hgunth@gateway/tor-sasl/hgunth) |
| 18:21.15 | *** join/#devuan bazquxer (~bazquxer@gateway/tor-sasl/bazquxer) |
| 18:23.03 | *** join/#devuan bazquxer (~bazquxer@gateway/tor-sasl/bazquxer) |
| 18:32.51 | *** join/#devuan ToffeeYogurtPots (~ToffeeYog@gateway/tor-sasl/toffeeyogurtpots) |
| 18:45.51 | *** join/#devuan skyroveRR (~skyroveRR@unaffiliated/skyroverr) |
| 19:03.35 | *** join/#devuan nacelle (nacelle@li229-74.members.linode.com) |
| 19:08.45 | *** join/#devuan Drugo (~Drugo@62-11-1-95.dialup.tiscali.it) |
| 19:17.02 | *** join/#devuan yandoogle (~Mutter@78-106-70-125.broadband.corbina.ru) |
| 19:21.19 | *** join/#devuan sepisoad (~sepisoad@5.78.66.57) |
| 19:24.02 | *** join/#devuan sepisoad (~sepisoad@5.78.66.57) |
| 19:27.49 | *** join/#devuan mmaglis (~user@p508EA8AB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 19:31.57 | *** join/#devuan stiltr (~stiltr@2603:3006:a:ff00::4f80) |
| 19:37.22 | *** join/#devuan system16 (~system16@unaffiliated/system16) |
| 19:42.52 | *** join/#devuan Oldmoss (~Oldmoss@anon-37-166.vpn.ipredator.se) |
| 20:15.36 | KatolaZ | we should try to reproduce the bug though... |
| 20:19.36 | *** join/#devuan cocoadaemon (~foo@2a01:e35:8a99:e90:1202:b5ff:fe91:e4ca) |
| 20:24.54 | *** join/#devuan clemens3 (~clemens@80-218-38-71.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 20:25.54 | KatolaZ | oops |
| 20:25.57 | KatolaZ | wrong chat |
| 20:29.26 | *** join/#devuan sgage (~sgage@h69-131-115-171.cntcnh.dsl.dynamic.tds.net) |
| 20:50.08 | *** join/#devuan _abc_ (~ruse@unaffiliated/ccbbaa) |
| 20:50.33 | _abc_ | Hello. fsmithred? Do you see slow writes on devuan jessie booted in persistence mode from stick? |
| 20:51.11 | _abc_ | I see 1.0MB/s write on a slow stick, 2.5 on a fast one, read speed is 20MB/s ish. I have been benchmarking it with a script, it is consistent. I found this bug relevant message: https://fhackts.wordpress.com/2014/03/10/very-slow-disk-write-performance-linux/ |
| 20:52.02 | _abc_ | please try my script if curious: http://188.26.193.110:8888/w/ u:none p:none |
| 20:52.56 | _abc_ | The kernel in devuan jessie live is one covered in the kernel version range covered by the message, specifically 3.16 |
| 20:53.49 | _abc_ | why would mem=8G fix it? I certainly don't have 8G of ram |
| 20:54.00 | _abc_ | 1G ram + 2G swap right now on the laptop. |
| 20:55.50 | *** join/#devuan pillepalle (~Thunderbi@ip-109-90-187-181.hsi11.unitymediagroup.de) |
| 21:01.04 | *** join/#devuan aitor (~aitor@109.82-130-160.dynamic.clientes.euskaltel.es) |
| 21:02.07 | *** join/#devuan sb35 (~eafaef@S0106602ad06acd48.vc.shawcable.net) |
| 21:02.21 | *** join/#devuan sokan (~Henry@unaffiliated/totaloblivion) |
| 21:11.32 | fsmithred | _abc_, maybe that boot option changes the way memory is allocated |
| 21:12.01 | fsmithred | I saved the script but haven't tried it yet |
| 21:14.06 | _abc_ | okay. Any other ideas on what to try? |
| 21:14.17 | _abc_ | Write speed is like 4 times too slow |
| 21:14.17 | fsmithred | not really |
| 21:14.40 | fsmithred | I see a lot of difference in speed from one stick to another |
| 21:14.44 | _abc_ | Looking at usb_storage and scsi_mod kernel module options now |
| 21:14.51 | *** join/#devuan blop (~blop@p54BEFA6F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 21:14.53 | _abc_ | I tried a fast one and a slow one. |
| 21:14.56 | *** join/#devuan Tom-_ (~tomg@64-7-147-200.agas1a-dynamic.dsl.sentex.ca) |
| 21:15.04 | _abc_ | The ratio is right, the numbers are wrong |
| 21:15.20 | _abc_ | I.e. one is 2.5 times faster than the other. |
| 21:15.54 | _abc_ | fsmithred: I see a lot of modules loaded in the live system which probably should not be there? Like parport_pc and others? |
| 21:16.24 | fsmithred | hey, I still have a parallel port printer |
| 21:16.41 | fsmithred | I can't be the only one |
| 21:17.03 | blop | is it dot matrix? |
| 21:17.09 | fsmithred | laser |
| 21:17.13 | fsmithred | hp 4L |
| 21:17.36 | _abc_ | fsmithred: that's not a problem, the problem is do you need the module loaded and taking time to load and probe or can you load it later or via udev. |
| 21:17.54 | _abc_ | Probing a strange machine from a live disk is a bit dicey always. |
| 21:18.29 | blop | nice |
| 21:18.31 | fsmithred | as long as it magically loads itself when the user decides to set up a printer |
| 21:18.51 | _abc_ | Well he has to select parallel port in cups, that should / could do it |
| 21:19.25 | _abc_ | Examining /sys/module/usb_storage/ |
| 21:19.27 | fsmithred | it's the desktop-live - it's fat. |
| 21:19.48 | fsmithred | if you want lean, it includes the tools for making your own |
| 21:22.27 | _abc_ | Just asked. Looking for a speed problem cure. |
| 21:23.50 | _abc_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:29.24 | *** join/#devuan ejr (~ejr2@80-108-134-13.cable.dynamic.surfer.at) |
| 21:31.47 | *** join/#devuan thaller (~thaller@2001:a61:425:9200:31fd:303b:5260:7928) |
| 21:32.09 | _abc_ | hmm okay reading source Luke. |
| 21:32.31 | _abc_ | http://linux-usb.vger.kernel.narkive.com/QP8J5H87/patch-ver-2-usb-storage-add-quirks-module-parameter is the patch which introduced quirks= to usb_storage.ko |
| 21:32.42 | _abc_ | It documents the quirk flags, some are interesting? |
| 21:33.00 | _abc_ | like l = lockable (not) |
| 21:33.31 | _abc_ | :m is also possibly useful |
| 21:33.35 | _abc_ | and :w is dangerous! |
| 21:35.03 | _abc_ | well these can be tried at boot time using usb_storage.quirks=... on the kernel cli in the live system |
| 21:35.15 | _abc_ | Worth a try, requiring a "few" reboots |
| 21:35.25 | _abc_ | But before that I would like to really understand where the bottleneck is |
| 21:35.29 | fsmithred | interesting. |
| 21:36.33 | _abc_ | So after reading the source I know the 'real' docs should be in Documentation/kernel-parameters.txt which goopile failed to find online. I don't buy that. |
| 21:36.55 | _abc_ | cue https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/admin-guide/kernel-parameters.txt |
| 21:37.29 | _abc_ | Hm so I will try this in a few days, don't want to reboot the live system before finishing setup with it ;) |
| 21:38.56 | _abc_ | fsmithred: the driver stack for usb sticks is kernel - scsi_mod.ko - usb_storage.ko - etc right? |
| 21:39.44 | _abc_ | scsi_mod does not appear in the kernel-parameters.txt at all! |
| 21:39.59 | fsmithred | that sounds familiar |
| 21:40.24 | _abc_ | Ah it appears in it's own file https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/scsi/scsi-parameters.txt |
| 21:40.26 | fsmithred | do other module names appear there? |
| 21:40.36 | _abc_ | all scsi is put in there |
| 21:41.25 | _abc_ | examining cat /sys/module/scsi_mod/parameters/*various |
| 21:41.26 | *** join/#devuan telmich (~deadghost@2a0ae5c002400b3fffe397beb.place5.ungleich.ch) |
| 21:41.26 | *** join/#devuan telmich (~deadghost@gpm/telmich) |
| 21:42.43 | _abc_ | max_luns is ridiculous at 512 |
| 21:43.50 | _abc_ | Well found nothing useful there |
| 21:45.19 | _abc_ | I don't see a :m quirks param used on usb_storage.ko anywhere. Google is pretty useless sometimes. |
| 21:45.32 | _abc_ | It has to exist at least in a forum somewhere, I guess. |
| 21:46.21 | *** join/#devuan nom-ent (~user@c-71-206-252-112.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 21:46.28 | _abc_ | http://dbezzuntu.blogspot.ro/2014/05/nokia-515-ubuntu-mount-sd-card.html aha |
| 21:47.20 | _abc_ | Interesting. I doubt that is the real problem but who knows? |
| 21:47.47 | _abc_ | At 2.5MB/s write speed the live system is pretty much unusable for tens of seconds while the device updates on write. |
| 21:48.11 | _abc_ | This being said, I am going to sleep a bit in 10 minutes. Midnight. |
| 21:51.14 | _abc_ | Torvalds on quiks in usb scsi devices, 2004+ threads http://yarchive.net/comp/linux/quirks.html |
| 21:51.18 | _abc_ | *quirks |
| 21:53.19 | _abc_ | So reading that it seems :m is a very sane option? Limiting transactions to 64 sectors/ 32kBytes on the scsi layer. |
| 21:53.37 | _abc_ | For my write speed problem. |
| 21:53.55 | _abc_ | I think scsi transactions are limited to 64 sectors. |
| 22:01.07 | _abc_ | Ok, they are not strictly limited, but may be so due to usb transfer size limitations |
| 22:03.19 | _abc_ | scsi_mod param eh_deadline is not documented at kernel.org, but at red hat. kernel.org getting out of sync with it's published source. Noted |
| 22:03.30 | *** part/#devuan Oldmoss (~Oldmoss@anon-37-166.vpn.ipredator.se) |
| 22:05.29 | _abc_ | Please remind me what the uuid disk reading tool is called? The one which prints the uuids of the existing partitions? |
| 22:06.16 | *** join/#devuan sgage (~sgage@h69-131-115-171.cntcnh.dsl.dynamic.tds.net) |
| 22:06.45 | sgage | _abc_, that would be blkid, needs to be run as root |
| 22:08.53 | _abc_ | yes!. Thanks |
| 22:10.02 | fsmithred | sgage, can you mount removable drives in mate? |
| 22:10.08 | _abc_ | More possible tuning params https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/30286/can-i-configure-my-linux-system-for-more-aggressive-file-system-caching |
| 22:10.18 | _abc_ | I wonder if this has to do with cache size |
| 22:18.13 | _abc_ | setting policy to deadliny in /sys/block/sda/queue/scheduler gives 50% higher speed, still too low |
| 22:18.22 | _abc_ | *deadline |
| 22:20.21 | _abc_ | I retract that, same speed on average. |
| 22:21.51 | *** part/#devuan nom-ent (~user@c-71-206-252-112.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 22:24.00 | sgage | fsmithred, my ascii/MATE system comes up with my external USB HD all mounted. It has two partitions, one NTFS and one EXT4, and they both are mounted and appear in Caja (MATE graphical file manager) |
| 22:24.21 | *** join/#devuan KwukDuck_ (~KwukDuck@82-197-210-65.dsl.cambrium.nl) |
| 22:24.27 | fsmithred | you're using consolekit or elogind? |
| 22:24.33 | *** part/#devuan KwukDuck_ (~KwukDuck@82-197-210-65.dsl.cambrium.nl) |
| 22:25.07 | sgage | I'm using console kit at the moment. Also, if I plug in a USB stick, it automounts just fine |
| 22:25.39 | fsmithred | hm |
| 22:25.53 | fsmithred | I couldn't get that to work with consolekit, but I could with elogind |
| 22:27.00 | sgage | There was a lot of confusion around the whole libpolkit updates. I had to dpkg --remove -systemd and then I could install the -consolekit version |
| 22:27.23 | fsmithred | I haven't had any problems installing the different libpolkit packages |
| 22:27.36 | fsmithred | just varying results with different desktops |
| 22:28.13 | golinux | is waiting before upgrading the latest updates to avoid the mess. |
| 22:28.15 | sgage | I had a huge runaround with things getting deleted and updated and such until I couldn't do it with apt |
| 22:28.34 | sgage | Had use dpkg to clean house, then all worked well. |
| 22:28.47 | _abc_ | from the bad performance I get, I assume the best outcome is to ignore problems and watch the blinkenlights without touchen anything |
| 22:28.51 | sgage | This is an ascii system I upgraded from jessie last summer... |
| 22:29.05 | fsmithred | ah, I'm testing new installs |
| 22:29.23 | sgage | I think that may make a difference |
| 22:29.54 | fsmithred | yeah, it does |
| 22:30.02 | fsmithred | not sure what, though |
| 22:30.24 | sgage | damdifino :-) |
| 22:30.56 | sgage | (sweet dreams _abc_) |
| 22:32.34 | *** join/#devuan hellvis (~ujdr@dslb-188-109-232-162.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de) |
| 22:40.57 | *** join/#devuan TemporalBeing1 (~Ben_Meyer@172-6-231-225.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net) |
| 22:41.29 | *** join/#devuan hellvis (~ujdr@dslb-188-109-232-162.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de) |
| 22:43.18 | sgage | brb, it's getting dark, and I need to get my chickens in before the foxes and weasels start to prowl. |
| 22:50.19 | *** join/#devuan uidzer0 (~uidzer0@168.235.83.215) |
| 23:04.31 | *** join/#devuan IoFran (~Thunderbi@200.68.141.5) |
| 23:04.42 | *** join/#devuan msiism (~msiism@mue-88-130-48-020.dsl.tropolys.de) |
| 23:10.28 | sgage | All set. Anyway, fsmithred, a few days ago when I was in this updating merry-go-round, for several days |
| 23:11.23 | sgage | there were 9 updates available and held back. A couple were task-desktop and taks-mate-desktop. |
| 23:12.21 | sgage | I figured the polkit stuff was a problem, so I just tried to upgrade the task- packages, and several polkit packages |
| 23:12.47 | sgage | were marked for removal. At that point, i bailed temporarily. |
| 23:13.13 | fsmithred | so... not easy to reproduce |
| 23:14.10 | sgage | No, not at all. In fact, I came this close to trying a fresh install, since I have the live system all burned onto USB. |
| 23:14.32 | sgage | But I thought I'd wait, because in the past things worked themselves out. |
| 23:15.00 | sgage | So now all appears well. Apt update shows everything up to date. |
| 23:15.58 | sgage | It was getting pretty circular there for a few days. |
| 23:17.07 | *** join/#devuan NewGnuGuy (~NewGnuGuy@72.34.178.34) |
| 23:17.19 | fsmithred | I know the feeling |
| 23:28.34 | sgage | I'm trying to come up with any clues, but in the immortal words of Curly, "I'm tryin' to think, but nothin' happens". |
| 23:29.44 | fsmithred | lol |
| 23:30.03 | fsmithred | I'm going through all the motions, and it's not quite making sense |
| 23:30.10 | fsmithred | one more desktop to test |
| 23:32.00 | sgage | Let me know if there's something it would be useful to test. I am going to make some supper now, but I'll be looking in from time to time. |
| 23:32.29 | fsmithred | ok, thanks |
| 23:32.48 | fsmithred | I'll post my results at d1g. Hoping to make a chart. |