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| 01:19.40 | *** topic/#devuan is Recent (2017-05-25): Jessie 1.0.0 stable release http://ur1.ca/qxaa5 || This is the Devuan https://devuan.org/ discussion channel (logged at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan - with useful 'search') | Please take off-topic conversation to #debianfork | /msg chanserv info #devuan | !listkeys #devuan <foo> | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ |
| 01:19.40 | *** mode/#devuan [+v infobot] by ChanServ |
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| 01:45.22 | vvande | I cannot update or upgrade a Devuan machine. It looks like it's doing it, but then chokes on not being able to connect to cdn-fastly.deb.debian.org |
| 01:45.27 | vvande | what has changed? |
| 01:45.33 | vvande | this machine used to work just fine |
| 01:45.44 | Criggie | do you have a working inet link to that host ? |
| 01:45.51 | vvande | yes, it's all good |
| 01:45.58 | vvande | I just want to update/upgrade |
| 01:46.23 | Criggie | can you run elinks cdn-fastly.deb.debian.org on that host ? |
| 01:46.51 | gnarface | cdn-fastly.deb.debian.org < not a devuan server |
| 01:47.03 | vvande | I'll have to go upstairs and try that. I'm not neara the machine right now. |
| 01:47.04 | Criggie | good spotting |
| 01:47.11 | vvande | gnarface, yeah, I figured that |
| 01:47.17 | vvande | so why is it being querried? |
| 01:47.43 | Criggie | why are you downloading devuan from a non devuan source? |
| 01:47.44 | gnarface | usually because it's in /etc/apt/sources.list or a file in /etc/apt/sources.list.d |
| 01:47.48 | Criggie | you should probably have things like |
| 01:47.48 | Criggie | deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ ascii main contrib non-free |
| 01:47.49 | Criggie | deb http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged/ ascii main contrib non-free |
| 01:48.09 | gnarface | pkgmaster is the new one. |
| 01:48.19 | gnarface | use that if auto.mirror still gives problems |
| 01:48.47 | vvande | Criggie, ok, what I'll do is copy those sources down, and put them on that machine |
| 01:49.08 | vvande | I'm just surprised that this has changed. The machine hasn't even been used for 2 months. |
| 01:49.16 | Criggie | vvande: is it a host that you side-upgraded over from debian or was it a fresh install ? |
| 01:49.26 | vvande | fresh install |
| 01:49.35 | Criggie | how did debian lines get in the sources ? |
| 01:49.38 | vvande | Devuan all the way :) |
| 01:49.42 | vvande | no idea |
| 01:49.43 | Criggie | cos the installer wouldn't have done that. |
| 01:49.48 | Criggie | did you install steam or something ? |
| 01:49.50 | vvande | not from me |
| 01:49.54 | vvande | no steam |
| 01:50.01 | gnarface | steam won't do that either |
| 01:50.11 | vvande | OK, I'll go look at the sources list and see there |
| 01:50.16 | vvande | then I'll come back here |
| 01:50.17 | Criggie | did you install over a debian root partition without formatting it? nah that wouldn't do this. |
| 01:50.18 | vvande | thanks guys |
| 01:50.33 | vvande | it was originally a Windows machine |
| 01:50.38 | vvande | yay! |
| 01:50.49 | vvande | anyway, back shortly |
| 01:50.49 | Criggie | ok well its puzzling. |
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| 02:15.13 | vvande | back |
| 02:15.18 | vvande | here is what I had |
| 02:15.20 | vvande | deb http://us.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ jessie main non-free contrib |
| 02:15.22 | *** mode/#devuan [+v Sigyn] by ChanServ |
| 02:15.39 | vvande | so I changed that to |
| 02:15.41 | vvande | deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie main contrib non-free |
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| 02:21.13 | golinux | FYI . . . http://cdn-fastly.deb.debian.org/ |
| 02:21.25 | golinux | How did you ever get that in your sources . . . |
| 02:21.46 | gnarface | somehow knows this mystery will never be solved |
| 02:22.08 | golinux | (Or no one will never admit to doing it) |
| 02:22.35 | golinux | never > ever . . . no double negatives here. :) |
| 02:23.13 | vvande | golinux, it was not in my sources |
| 02:23.31 | vvande | yes, it will probably never be solved |
| 02:23.37 | vvande | and doesn't matter for me now |
| 02:23.47 | vvande | fresh page |
| 02:23.57 | Criggie | vvande: could it be in your /etc/hosts file ? Or your firewall/router messing wiht you? |
| 02:23.59 | vvande | I'm now connected with SSH so can see what's going on. |
| 02:24.21 | vvande | and I will start over |
| 02:24.22 | gnarface | it could be his router even if he doesn't know it |
| 02:24.38 | gnarface | some of the new ones have outrageously bad behavior if the upstream DNS service goes down |
| 02:25.13 | vvande | I'll start a completely fresh sources list with this only: deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie-updates main |
| 02:25.17 | vvande | does that sound good? |
| 02:25.24 | gnarface | it's also possible that us.mirror.devuan.org hostname is messed up itself; it never did this to me but it also never worked |
| 02:25.49 | gnarface | vvande: no, you want security and the other too |
| 02:25.54 | vvande | ok |
| 02:26.54 | gnarface | vvande, like this: http://paste.debian.net/1010025/ |
| 02:28.47 | vvande | gnarface, ah thanks so much! |
| 02:28.54 | vvande | ok, here goes ... |
| 02:30.01 | vvande | not looking good |
| 02:30.04 | vvande | Get:1 http://auto.mirror.devuan.org jessie/main Sources [7,079 kB] |
| 02:30.08 | vvande | followed by |
| 02:30.22 | vvande | 5% [1 Sources 386 kB/7,079 kB 5%] |
| 02:30.27 | vvande | and it's stuck :( |
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| 02:30.37 | vvande | will kick me off ssh in a minute |
| 02:30.45 | *** part/#devuan mongoose_jake (~jake@24.138.57.234) |
| 02:30.47 | gnarface | that's when you ran "apt-get update" ? |
| 02:30.59 | gnarface | or did you forget and run "apt-get upgrade" without doing an update first? |
| 02:31.02 | vvande | yes exactly |
| 02:31.14 | vvande | apt-get update |
| 02:31.18 | vvande | second time now |
| 02:31.35 | vvande | stuck again |
| 02:31.59 | gnarface | can't reproduce it here |
| 02:32.02 | gnarface | working for me |
| 02:32.15 | vvande | this was a perfectly nice working system |
| 02:33.06 | gnarface | seems like something is wrong with your network |
| 02:33.12 | vvande | but I'm not telling the whole truth :) I did forget the root password and had to delete it and log in again. |
| 02:33.28 | gnarface | it could be the mirror it's selecting for you, but it should give you another when you run it again. |
| 02:33.37 | vvande | funny, other laptops work, and other desktops are fine and all's as usual here |
| 02:33.45 | gnarface | really? with the same sources.list? |
| 02:33.52 | gnarface | that's interesting... |
| 02:34.08 | gnarface | is it possible the one that doesn't work is missing swap? |
| 02:34.46 | vvande | ok it just dumped me with timeout - I'll log in again and check swap |
| 02:35.22 | gnarface | there's also some issues in jessie with certain intel wifi cards. if you're using wifi try it again with a physical wire |
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| 02:35.54 | gnarface | the firmware in jessie was causing disconnects with some models |
| 02:36.03 | vvande | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:36.24 | gnarface | should be plenty |
| 02:36.28 | vvande | yeah |
| 02:37.06 | vvande | well thanks guys - I'm going to try again a couple of times - if no results - I'll reainstall the system |
| 02:37.11 | vvande | was hoping to avoid that |
| 02:37.53 | gnarface | it would behoove you to find out what is actually going wrong. this is a problem you will likely run into again with every distro. |
| 02:39.26 | gnarface | and we'd really like to know what is wrong too, in case it's some new bug or problem with the repos, but it doesn't really make it easy for us to help when your story has so many large holes in it... |
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| 02:41.24 | vvande | gnarface, I found something |
| 02:41.56 | vvande | the resolv.conf - I don't quite understand it but |
| 02:42.03 | vvande | I commentted it all out and just put 8.8.8.8 for now |
| 02:42.27 | vvande | and apt-get update appears to be working and not stalling at 5% like before |
| 02:43.50 | Criggie | ok that suggests DNS is a bit whacked for you. |
| 02:43.54 | gnarface | if you're using dhcp and a home broadband connection, your resolv.conf likely got populated with your router's private ip address, which, in the event of your ISP's upstream DNS failing, will blithely feed you outdated cache or completely invalid redirects back to itself. mix in a little unlucky javascript and you can get really bad behavior |
| 02:44.17 | vvande | could be - I don't understand how it works any more - I usually do it manually the old fashioned way |
| 02:44.29 | vvande | which is a lot easier, it seems |
| 02:44.35 | gnarface | (the slashdot auto-page-refresh loop for example will populate the cache for slashdot.org with your LAN gateway ip even after upstream DNS comes back up - ATT sucks) |
| 02:45.02 | vvande | ok, it stopped again |
| 02:45.07 | vvande | so that wasn't a fix |
| 02:45.14 | gnarface | it got further though? |
| 02:45.51 | vvande | yes |
| 02:46.12 | vvande | I'm going to bring the machine elsewhere and actually plug it in |
| 02:46.19 | gnarface | your ISP may just simply be dropping the connections to screw with you. it's not actually illegal for them to air petty grievances this way. |
| 02:46.28 | vvande | to eliminate wireless problems - though wireless is pretty solid here normally |
| 02:46.55 | vvande | my ISP is just a mom and pop place - no grievances and pretty normal service |
| 02:47.15 | gnarface | oh, yea it could be wifi issues too. even just moving the device very close to the router (< 1 foot away) usually will make that obvious. |
| 02:47.46 | vvande | wait got an idea |
| 02:47.48 | gnarface | the spectrum is very crowded where i'm at. enough that during peak hours the effective range and reliability of wireless connections drop significantly |
| 02:48.02 | vvande | I just had a quick look at /var/log/syslog |
| 02:48.13 | vvande | theres stuff about ipv6 there |
| 02:48.23 | vvande | and I'm using an HE tunnel for ipv6 |
| 02:48.47 | gnarface | heh |
| 02:48.59 | vvande | I always forget about ipv6. |
| 02:49.22 | vvande | except in Firefox which can screw up with it, because it favours it over ipv4 |
| 02:49.36 | gnarface | the default configuration should work for ipv6 and almost everything should prefer it by default |
| 02:49.47 | gnarface | that can be a problem if your ISP doesn't support it or is doing it wrong |
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| 02:50.02 | vvande | yeah, but being an HE tunnel rather than native ? |
| 02:50.17 | gnarface | one more monkey wrench |
| 02:50.26 | vvande | that's what I mean, people do it wrong - not that I can tell other than that lol |
| 02:50.44 | *** join/#devuan konsolebox (~konsolebo@110.54.175.243) |
| 02:50.47 | vvande | so, is there an easy way to turn it off in Devuan - temporarily? |
| 02:50.56 | gnarface | yes |
| 02:51.51 | gnarface | the debian wiki entry is still valid for devuan on this note: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianIPv6#How_to_turn_off_IPv6 |
| 02:51.58 | vvande | actually, I think I'll turn off the tunnel in the router and go that route temporarily |
| 02:52.08 | vvande | I'll look at that link first though. thanks :) |
| 02:52.22 | gnarface | do whatever you want but i advise you only change one variable per test |
| 02:53.20 | vvande | of course |
| 02:53.52 | vvande | best way |
| 02:53.52 | vvande | so I'm changing the router and restarting it just in case |
| 02:58.56 | vvande | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:58.58 | vvande | :) |
| 03:00.19 | vvande | now it's chugging away on update - looking good |
| 03:00.58 | Xenguy | \o/ |
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| 03:03.56 | gnarface | vvande: my best guess is your upstream DNS went down then the router started this really bad "pretend to know what's going on anyway" caching behavior |
| 03:04.28 | gnarface | the motorola routers ATT ship for u-verse right now do this, but i'm lead to believe it's very common in new models |
| 03:05.14 | gnarface | in theory, running local DNS should eliminate the problem without feeding every http request straight to a google server |
| 03:05.51 | rrq | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:05.53 | vvande | gnarface, I'm using an ASUS RT-N16 with Tomato Shibby - it's been great for a long time. But it's also possible that it's hit EOL |
| 03:06.19 | Criggie | why would it start doing dumb stuff just cos its old ? |
| 03:06.23 | gnarface | hmm, well i'm not aware with the behavior of Tomato in this situation, but i bet they have docs about it |
| 03:06.28 | vvande | also, I run a DNS server on my VPN server |
| 03:06.29 | Criggie | thats terrible planned obsolecence if its true. |
| 03:06.32 | vvande | not a google fan lol |
| 03:06.47 | gnarface | vvande: 8.8.8.8 is google's public dns though... i hope you were aware of that |
| 03:06.59 | vvande | Criggie, well no, but shit happens to hardware sometimes - I'm otherwise a fan of old :) |
| 03:07.14 | vvande | gnarface, yes I'm well aware of that |
| 03:07.26 | Criggie | hah I could beat your old without half trying :-P |
| 03:07.41 | vvande | but will do this and then get back to proper DNS - just didn't want to change things to much at a time |
| 03:08.01 | vvande | Criggie, oh yeah! |
| 03:08.17 | vvande | so how about having a DOS machine on a runing right now? |
| 03:08.22 | vvande | can you beat that? |
| 03:08.23 | vvande | lol |
| 03:08.57 | Criggie | vvande: no sadly, my oldest running OS would be an XP pro VM, used for backing up my Palm PDA. |
| 03:09.13 | Criggie | vvande: I do have NT4 VMs about, but they're off. |
| 03:09.46 | Criggie | vvande: your oldest cellphone in use today ? |
| 03:09.54 | Criggie | vvande: nokia 6310i |
| 03:10.24 | Criggie | vvande: age of car? 1973 landrover. |
| 03:10.39 | vvande | cool |
| 03:10.44 | vvande | my hat's off to ya :) |
| 03:10.56 | Criggie | vvande: bike? 1980 Raleigh Arena. |
| 03:10.57 | vvande | I don't have a cell phone though. lol |
| 03:11.12 | vvande | my car is a 1987 k-car |
| 03:11.17 | vvande | so we're brothers in this |
| 03:11.21 | vvande | :) |
| 03:11.23 | Criggie | k-car ? not familiar with the term |
| 03:11.44 | vvande | Chrystler - famous like of reliable ones |
| 03:12.23 | Xenguy | Like the slant-six ? |
| 03:12.37 | Xenguy | I know shit about cars |
| 03:12.39 | Criggie | oh - Holden. Gotcha. |
| 03:12.47 | *** join/#devuan higher (~none@66.244.241.35) |
| 03:12.52 | Xenguy | I just heard that was a really reliable engine back in the day |
| 03:13.01 | Criggie | vvande: I'm a kiwi, not an american. |
| 03:13.04 | vvande-02 | hey |
| 03:13.13 | vvande-02 | here we are from DOS6.21 |
| 03:13.27 | Xenguy | remembers 4dos |
| 03:13.39 | Criggie | hehehe nice. |
| 03:13.51 | Criggie | I had an atari portfolio back in the day |
| 03:14.03 | Criggie | long since gone sadly. |
| 03:14.05 | vvande | yah, never used it though - but was good stuff |
| 03:14.15 | Xenguy | People liked it I think |
| 03:14.19 | Xenguy | That platform |
| 03:15.09 | vvande | yes |
| 03:15.40 | Xenguy | Folks talk about commodore a lot in that way also |
| 03:15.47 | vvande | they do |
| 03:16.01 | vvande | there's a lot of vintage folk still loving them |
| 03:16.04 | vvande | you |
| 03:16.15 | vvande | ll find some with a web server too |
| 03:16.18 | Xenguy | I'll bet, and why not? |
| 03:16.43 | Xenguy | Old reliable tek is like utopia |
| 03:16.51 | Xenguy | Esp. when it's FOSS |
| 03:17.00 | Criggie | RADIUS. |
| 03:17.47 | vvande | yeah, I run DOS because it works - best text utilities - and I otherwise run FreeBSD and Linux - but DOS still has its uses. |
| 03:17.57 | vvande | anyway, just got the dinner call |
| 03:18.04 | vvande | cheers guys :) |
| 03:19.51 | Xenguy | o/ |
| 03:20.24 | Xenguy | Does vi run on DOS too, haha |
| 03:23.08 | Criggie | https://ccc.govt.nz/news-and-events/newsline/show/2395 |
| 03:23.11 | Criggie | bah |
| 03:23.26 | Criggie | http://www.vim.org/download.php#pc |
| 03:23.49 | Criggie | theres a 16bit, 32 bit version for dos. |
| 03:24.00 | Xenguy | Crazy isn't it? |
| 03:24.20 | Xenguy | It runs on everything |
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| 03:44.16 | vvande | yeah there's vi for dos |
| 03:44.54 | nacelle | is there an ascii candidate iso somewhere? or do I have to build it myself? |
| 03:44.55 | vvande | actually there are probably more text editors for DOS than there are for all *nix systems combined |
| 03:48.01 | golinux | nacelle: Alittle birdie told me isos were coming soon |
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| 04:56.36 | Xenguy | vvande: I highly doubt that, but feel free to prove me wrong |
| 04:58.45 | Xenguy | Time for me to crash anyway |
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| 05:09.44 | nacelle | hawt |
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| 05:12.22 | vvande | So it looks like there is no way to update the Devuan system on that laptop. |
| 05:12.29 | vvande | it simply won't do it |
| 05:12.59 | vvande | I can find nothing else that it won't do. All looks good. Can browse just fine on it. |
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| 06:57.51 | nacelle | hrmm, interesting quirk... you need to have a /boot for debian-installer to successfully install grub... but you can only make it jfs, fat16 or fat32... hrmm. |
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| 07:38.37 | nacelle | (where most other linux do not support jfs, so booting.. will be non-trivial there if recovery/etc.) |
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| 08:28.13 | KatolaZ | nacelle: I guess that's a quirk in UEFI |
| 08:28.25 | KatolaZ | and, you are not forced to have a UEFI boot, AFAICT |
| 08:31.26 | blop | depends on your bios |
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| 10:40.45 | nacelle | KatolaZ: its a bug in the debian-installer script |
| 10:41.08 | nacelle | or grub-install, I guess |
| 10:41.38 | nacelle | grub-install wont install on a drive without a /boot for some reason (maybe uefi related, but I dont think I'm doing uefi on this box) |
| 10:41.51 | KatolaZ | nacelle: must be uefi-related |
| 10:42.04 | KatolaZ | I have installed hundred non-uefi with grub |
| 10:42.08 | KatolaZ | without a boot partition |
| 10:42.16 | nacelle | yeah no efi on this |
| 10:42.55 | KatolaZ | nacelle: are you using expert install? |
| 10:43.09 | nacelle | regular devuan jessie 1.0 pxe install |
| 10:43.49 | KatolaZ | nacelle: try the expert install |
| 10:43.53 | KatolaZ | which is more verbosr |
| 10:44.10 | KatolaZ | and will ask you if you want to force grub to install on a /boot uefi partition |
| 10:44.15 | KatolaZ | you just choose "no" |
| 10:45.12 | nacelle | i made a /boot, no big |
| 10:45.22 | nacelle | just kind of quirky that it bails like that |
| 10:48.33 | fsmithred | nacelle, are you trying to install to gpt disk with bios boot? |
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| 11:16.42 | nacelle | regular old skool partition table |
| 11:16.56 | nacelle | it works just fine with /boot existing |
| 11:17.16 | nacelle | (fsmithred: this is not the same box we were working with, entirely different beast here) |
| 11:17.33 | nacelle | that notebook is sitting to my life, asking me to fixup the quirky things |
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| 11:40.28 | fsmithred | nacelle, you shouldn't need a separate /boot partition unless you are encrypting the root filesystem |
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| 11:40.53 | fsmithred | and that's the same for uefi or bios |
| 11:43.33 | rrq | doesn't it need an EFI portition of type FAT, mounted as /boot/efi for grub? (feel free to ignore me:)) |
| 11:45.08 | fsmithred | yes rrq uefi needs a special partition, but that's not a /boot partition |
| 11:45.57 | fsmithred | and just to confuse matters, that special not-a-boot partition is where the bootloader goes |
| 11:49.33 | rrq | yeah, somewhere under /boot/grub on the partition identified as "boot partition", which may and may not be the same as the root partition. |
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| 14:29.43 | ceene | hey guys, just wanted to report that I've succesfully installed devuan on a new pc |
| 14:30.04 | ceene | well, I had to tinker a little bit, but I guess that's a problem on debian installer, not specific to devuan |
| 14:30.25 | ceene | i created a single partition as LVM and the installer wasn't able to install grub on that |
| 14:30.29 | ceene | it searched for /dev/mapper |
| 14:30.33 | ceene | instead of /dev/sdc1 |
| 14:44.43 | ttr | if your boot/rootfs is on lvm, then it should be under /dev/mapper |
| 14:45.14 | ttr | also booting from lvm should be no problem, but older versions of grub did not support this easly (older - few years back) |
| 14:45.31 | ceene | installation failed, nonetheless |
| 14:45.51 | ceene | i had to install it manually via chroot on newly created root and doing grub-install /dev/sdc; update-grub |
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| 15:10.08 | zyliwax | does devuan support (officially or otherwise) custom terminal-only keymaps? |
| 15:10.44 | zyliwax | i want my capslock key to be an escape key in terminal mode without messing up how it interacts with xcape with an xserver running |
| 15:12.25 | zyliwax | but it looks like devuan uses the same setting to define keymaps for both terminal and X :/ |
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| 15:25.45 | Irrwahn | zyliwax: maybe https://superuser.com/questions/290115/how-to-change-console-keymap-in-linux gives any useful hints? |
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| 15:32.45 | msiism | when upgrading devuan, there are always some packages that are being kept back. why could that be? |
| 15:33.07 | msiism | (i'm talking about a standard devian installation (through without any gui)) |
| 15:33.16 | zyliwax | Irrwahn: yeah, i can easily stick "keycode 58 = Escape | loadkeys" somewhere, i just don't know where it will take effect in any and every tty |
| 15:33.20 | msiism | s/devian/devuan |
| 15:33.34 | zyliwax | Irrwahn: (referring to the first answer in your link) |
| 15:34.18 | zyliwax | hmm, rc.local eh? does devuan maintain that? i'm imagining yes as part of keeping with the "sysvinit" way of things |
| 15:34.31 | Irrwahn | zyliwax: For a start I'd try ~/.profile or ~/.bashrc (assuming you actually use bash) |
| 15:34.34 | KatolaZ | zyliwax: what "maintainamnce" does rc.local involve? |
| 15:34.42 | KatolaZ | that's a file used by the sysadmin |
| 15:34.46 | KatolaZ | and executed at the end of the boot |
| 15:34.55 | KatolaZ | it's empty by default |
| 15:35.04 | KatolaZ | IIRC |
| 15:35.15 | Irrwahn | Correct. |
| 15:35.32 | zyliwax | i'm no longer at this machine but i'll take a look at those locations when i get back to it |
| 15:36.07 | zyliwax | Irrwahn: this settings requires root so unfortunately anything running as my regular user in ~ would be less than smooth |
| 15:36.09 | Irrwahn | And then there's /etc/profile, /etc/profile.d/* |
| 15:36.20 | zyliwax | appreciate the answers both |
| 15:36.23 | Irrwahn | Ah, right |
| 15:36.47 | zyliwax | Irrwahn: yes /etc/profile sounds like a decent place to do this |
| 15:36.50 | Irrwahn | Then I'd go with /etc/profile or a fresh file in /etc/profile.d/ |
| 15:36.55 | Irrwahn | yup |
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| 15:37.35 | zyliwax | in gentoo you can just make new keymaps in /usr/share/keymaps but devuan seems to do things differently |
| 15:38.12 | msiism | ok, i just found that there is still a difference between apt-get upgrade and apt-get dist-upgrade which i thought didn't exist anymore (for whatever reason). |
| 15:38.16 | Irrwahn | I would assume Devuan does what all Debian derivatives do. |
| 15:39.02 | zyliwax | Irrwahn: with systemd infecting upstream i'm worried that statement is increasingly becoming meaningless :) |
| 15:40.11 | Irrwahn | zyliwax: Taking into account that 99.84785 % of Devuan packages are merged from Debian, that's a bit of a stretch. (pun not intended) |
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| 15:45.37 | msiism | Irrwahn: still, the reason for creating your own distro is exactly to do things differently on a certain level, isn't it (like including another default desktop, for example)? |
| 15:46.21 | Irrwahn | With emphasize on *on a certain level*, yes. |
| 15:47.11 | Irrwahn | However, that doesn't mean the whole userland get's redesigned. |
| 15:47.46 | KatolaZ | Irrwahn: I guess the percentage is a bit smaller, but still :) |
| 15:48.21 | Irrwahn | KatolaZ: Yeah, I was exaggerating for the sake of ... err... argument. :-° |
| 15:48.39 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 15:49.01 | msiism | Irrwahn: from my experience, ubuntu has done a fair amount of "redesigning". |
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| 15:49.33 | Irrwahn | msiism: Devuan =/= Ubuntu (luckily) |
| 15:50.18 | Irrwahn | would not dare count the stuff Ubuntu broke, and keeps breaking |
| 15:50.25 | KatolaZ | well, that's the point of making another distro, indeed :) |
| 15:50.56 | KatolaZ | oh, I don't mean "breaking things", rather "doing things differently: |
| 15:52.09 | Irrwahn | I was once on Ubuntu, them breaking stuff drove me to Mint DE, them losing traction drove me to Debian testing, them forcing systemd on me drove me to Devuan. |
| 15:52.26 | Irrwahn | Quite a journey, yet still all debianish systems. |
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| 15:52.55 | zyliwax | Irrwahn: yeah i know that was a bit hyperbolic ;) |
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| 15:53.38 | KatolaZ | I think the actual figure is about 98% |
| 15:53.41 | msiism | quick note: i've tried building iridium browser on jessie yesterday (for they only offer pre-compiled packages for debian's amd64 port). it doesn't work, since you can't satisfy its build deps on jessie. but (as stated on their website) it should be possible to run the pre-compiled package on jessie if you're on 64bit. |
| 15:53.47 | KatolaZ | \pm 0.5% |
| 15:53.48 | KatolaZ | atm |
| 15:54.39 | Irrwahn | zyliwax: FWIW, I'll owe you a beer if /etc/profile ever changes it's meaning on any Debian derivative during my lifetime. ;o) |
| 15:55.22 | zyliwax | Irrwahn: time to start my own fork then :) |
| 15:55.36 | Irrwahn | D'oh! :D |
| 15:56.18 | Irrwahn | zyliwax: But you'll need a user base > 1! :P |
| 15:56.19 | KatolaZ | zyliwax: why? |
| 15:56.33 | KatolaZ | I mean, you can override whatever is in profile in your local usedir |
| 15:56.37 | KatolaZ | homedir |
| 15:56.46 | zyliwax | Irrwahn: that wasn't part of the deal >:P |
| 15:56.53 | KatolaZ | profile is only for system-wide conf |
| 15:57.04 | KatolaZ | (better, system-wide defaults) |
| 15:57.06 | Irrwahn | zyliwax: Go sue me. }:-> |
| 15:58.15 | zyliwax | KatolaZ: i hope you realize i wasn't serious about this :( but yeah in my fork, i'm totally make /etc/profile the config file for cowsay :D |
| 15:58.20 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 15:58.21 | Irrwahn | Jokes aside, there are things that work basically the same on *any* unixoid system. |
| 15:58.28 | KatolaZ | zyliwax: :D |
| 15:58.30 | KatolaZ | sorry |
| 15:58.31 | Irrwahn | :D |
| 15:58.33 | KatolaZ | doing to and fro |
| 15:58.40 | KatolaZ | and reading diagonally ;) |
| 15:58.56 | KatolaZ | cowsay is a fundamental package |
| 15:59.03 | KatolaZ | together with toilet |
| 15:59.38 | Irrwahn | KatolaZ: BTW, is it featured in task-console-productivity? |
| 15:59.54 | Irrwahn | If not it should. |
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| 16:03.17 | KatolaZ | obviously |
| 16:03.21 | KatolaZ | it is |
| 16:03.28 | KatolaZ | and toilet as well |
| 16:03.29 | KatolaZ | ;) |
| 16:03.31 | Irrwahn | :D |
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| 16:18.56 | msiism | when upgrading from jessie to ascii, why do i get notifications about packages from unstable and experimental (apt 1.2~exp, for example)? |
| 16:19.41 | msiism | (fwiw, i've been using de.mirror installing jessie, but switched to pkgmaster before the upgrade) |
| 16:21.55 | Irrwahn | msiism: If you get *anything* from experimental it means you have the experimental repo active in either /etc/apt/sources.list or /etc/apt/sources.list.d |
| 16:22.03 | KatolaZ | msiism: what do you have in your sources.list? |
| 16:23.50 | msiism | KatolaZ: ascii main, ascii-security main non-free, ascii-updates main non-free |
| 16:24.30 | Irrwahn | msiism: anything in /etc/apt/sources.list.d ? |
| 16:25.58 | msiism | KatolaZ, Irrwahn: yes, "devuan.list" with everything commented out (i've never touched this file) |
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| 16:26.11 | Irrwahn | mkay. |
| 16:27.02 | msiism | KatolaZ: to clarify, i'm not getting packages from experimental (at least i think so), but notifications about what's new in some unstable, experimental packages, before the upgrade is going to be performed. |
| 16:29.14 | Irrwahn | msiism: Ah, that probably just measn that packages trickled down to testing. I *think* that should be intentional then; not absolutely sure though. |
| 16:29.40 | msiism | ok |
| 16:29.57 | msiism | well, i'll just do the upgrade and see what happens then |
| 16:30.25 | Irrwahn | Very well. |
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| 17:15.04 | lupin3rd | hi. after last packages upgrade automount don't works for me (i'm using devuan ascii) with thunar or pcmanfm. anyone can help me?? |
| 17:16.06 | lupin3rd | "Not authorized to perform operation." error |
| 17:16.24 | msiism | lupin3rd: are you using any desktop suite (xfce, lxde...)? |
| 17:19.44 | lupin3rd | i'm using i3...and load policykit |
| 17:20.55 | msiism | lupin3rd: ok, you might want to read this: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=128 |
| 17:22.22 | msiism | lupin3rd: there's a bit of noise around the info you're probably looking for, i admit. |
| 17:23.36 | Irrwahn | lupin3rd: please make sure libpolkit-backend-1-0-consolekit got installed |
| 17:24.49 | lupin3rd | thank you very much for the infos |
| 17:24.53 | lupin3rd | i'm reading |
| 17:25.33 | lupin3rd | libpolkit-backend-1-0-consolekit |
| 17:25.36 | lupin3rd | is installed |
| 17:27.33 | Irrwahn | lupin3rd: is consolekit shown as activate when you run pam-auth-update (as root)? |
| 17:28.19 | lupin3rd | yes, is selected |
| 17:30.17 | Irrwahn | lupin3rd: Did you reboot after the update, or did at least cycle through runlevel 1? |
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| 17:30.48 | lupin3rd | yes |
| 17:31.08 | Irrwahn | Mmh. |
| 17:32.01 | msiism | lupin3rd: what's in your .xinitrc file? |
| 17:37.10 | msiism | lupin3rd: are you using a login or display manager to start X? |
| 17:37.18 | lupin3rd | i don't have :-) |
| 17:37.23 | lupin3rd | an xinitrc file |
| 17:37.30 | lupin3rd | i'm using lightdm |
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| 17:37.41 | lupin3rd | that run i3 |
| 17:37.53 | msiism | lupin3rd: lightdm... |
| 17:38.05 | Irrwahn | lupin3rd: please replace libpolkit-backend-1-0-consolekit with libpolkit-backend-1-0-elogind |
| 17:38.25 | Irrwahn | and make sure elogind is installed and active in pam-auth-update |
| 17:38.52 | msiism | Irrwahn: well, depending on which config files lightdm reads, this might be a simple editing a file issue. |
| 17:39.54 | Irrwahn | To me it looks like lightdm gets a 'split' session between consolekit and elogind, resulting in broken session management |
| 17:40.18 | msiism | Irrwahn: you don't need session management to mount devices. |
| 17:40.26 | lupin3rd | i remove consolekit and install elogind backend |
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| 17:40.44 | lupin3rd | restart?? |
| 17:40.53 | Irrwahn | lupin3rd: yes, please |
| 17:40.59 | lupin3rd | ok |
| 17:41.12 | msiism | lupin3rd: i think that making mounting work is really just a matter of putting the right .xinitrc file in your home dir. |
| 17:41.37 | Irrwahn | msiism: if he was using slim it would have worked, probably |
| 17:41.53 | Irrwahn | msiism: no .xinitrc needed at all |
| 17:42.11 | msiism | Irrwahn: i don't think so. |
| 17:42.25 | msiism | Irrwahn: slim would need to start an instance of dbus for the current session. |
| 17:42.58 | Irrwahn | ofc, that's what (some of) the scripts in /etc/X11/Xsession.d do |
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| 17:43.38 | Irrwahn | I spent the better part of the last week to test the new elogind and polkit packages that recently hit the repos |
| 17:43.46 | msiism | well, i use startx to start X and have "exec dbus-launch --exit-with-session openbox-session" in my .xinitrc. |
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| 17:44.01 | msiism | (to start the dbus instance) |
| 17:44.10 | Irrwahn | startx is a totally different cup of tea :) |
| 17:44.12 | lupin3rd | same problem |
| 17:44.56 | msiism | Irrwahn: totally different? |
| 17:45.09 | msiism | well, i don't know. |
| 17:45.19 | lupin3rd | also with elogind |
| 17:47.44 | msiism | lupin3rd: i suggest, you put up .xinitrc in your home dir, put "exec dbus-launch i3" into that, then try startx intead of lightdm for testing and then see if lightdm can be configured to read .xinitrc (or does that anyway). |
| 17:48.38 | lupin3rd | same problem with slim |
| 17:48.44 | lupin3rd | ok. i try now |
| 17:49.15 | Irrwahn | for slim you'd have to revert to polkit backend consolekit |
| 17:49.47 | msiism | Irrwahn: shouldn't lightdm also read .xinitrc if it's there? |
| 17:50.18 | Irrwahn | msiism: yes, but you won't need to start dbus there |
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| 17:50.50 | lupin3rd | now with xinitr and simple startx |
| 17:50.54 | lupin3rd | same problem |
| 17:51.11 | msiism | do you have gvfs installed? |
| 17:51.36 | msiism | also, it has to be '.xinitrc' (just to be clear) |
| 17:52.10 | lupin3rd | yes .xinitrc |
| 17:52.29 | lupin3rd | gvfs is installed |
| 17:52.34 | msiism | ok, let me check that out on my machine. |
| 17:53.01 | lupin3rd | i reinstall consolekit backed and retry with slim |
| 17:53.08 | lupin3rd | wait |
| 17:53.11 | lupin3rd | :-) |
| 17:55.21 | msiism | i3 + .xinitrc + startx mounts usb drives on my system |
| 17:55.48 | msiism | "exec dbus-launch --exit-with-session i3" is in the file |
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| 17:57.53 | lupin3rd | ohhhh!!!! |
| 17:58.07 | lupin3rd | slim with policykit backend works fine |
| 17:58.21 | lupin3rd | fucking lightdm |
| 17:58.28 | lupin3rd | :-) |
| 17:59.33 | msiism | lupin3rd: just so you get the info, let me repeat what i just posted (even if it's noe irrelevent for you) |
| 17:59.41 | msiism | i3 + .xinitrc + startx mounts usb drives on my system |
| 17:59.47 | msiism | "exec dbus-launch --exit-with-session i3" is in the file |
| 18:00.24 | nacelle | fsmithred: thats what I thought too |
| 18:01.03 | lupin3rd | seem that elogind backend don't mount with startx or slim |
| 18:01.28 | lupin3rd | policikit backend mount with slim |
| 18:02.10 | lupin3rd | policykit don't mount with lightdm |
| 18:05.18 | msiism | i think somethng's seriously wrong with linux the desktop ecosystem |
| 18:05.32 | msiism | the linux desktop ecosystem... |
| 18:05.44 | lupin3rd | :-) |
| 18:07.54 | msiism | there should be sh/bash language binding for reasonable GUI toolkits and everyone should be forced to use that (just joking, but not totally) |
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| 18:10.44 | specing | msiism: you have bash binding for dialog (and its GUI counterpars, gtkdialog?, ...) |
| 18:11.04 | specing | well, not so much a bash banding as it is a normal command and can be used from any shell |
| 18:11.09 | specing | s/command/program/ |
| 18:11.58 | msiism | specing: really? i thought, it would actually not make sense because the outcome would be a really slow gui. but maybe that's not true. |
| 18:12.33 | specing | msiism: dialog is used for e.g. installers |
| 18:12.42 | specing | where the main logic is a shell script anyway |
| 18:12.57 | msiism | specing: so the devuan gui installer uses gtkdialog? |
| 18:12.59 | specing | and yes it is slow AF, see distro installers |
| 18:13.12 | specing | I don't know what it uses |
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| 18:13.54 | msiism | specing: i never use the graphical installer. |
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| 18:16.41 | specing | msiism: I never use any installers |
| 18:16.57 | msiism | specing: why not. i love the debian installer. |
| 18:18.59 | specing | because it can't install Gentoo |
| 18:19.53 | msiism | but gentoo is not meant to be installed thorugh an installer anyway, at least not the original version, is it? |
| 18:20.50 | msiism | btw, the idea behind my joking around above was: the gui should merely be a layer on top of the actual program â a frontend in the true sense of the word. |
| 18:21.35 | specing | yes. That is why I don't use any installers |
| 18:21.43 | msiism | i think the guy who has taken up the development of spacefm after its original authro dropped it wants to do exactly that for spacefm. |
| 18:21.52 | specing | (more or less because there aren't any, too) |
| 18:29.49 | msiism | but, as i've said, having the gui all interface with the shell may really not be the best choice in terms of speed. that's why most of the desktop software uses syscalls directly, if i'm not mistaken. |
| 18:31.14 | muep | was it implied that the interface from gui to the "actual program" should necessarily be shell? |
| 18:31.41 | msiism | muep: i think i did imply this, yes. |
| 18:32.22 | msiism | probably because bash is the only thing i kind of know at the moment (i've forgotten all of my php skills) |
| 18:32.25 | muep | I'd always at least recommend doing a direct exec* call with the program and arguments, rather than constructing a shell snippet in a string and running that |
| 18:33.02 | msiism | ok |
| 18:33.29 | msiism | time and again faces the bitter truth of having to learn C |
| 18:34.00 | muep | for this discussion it would suffice to know e.g. the subprocess module of python |
| 18:34.23 | msiism | oh, ok. |
| 18:34.39 | muep | so there instead of subprocess.call("some-tool --some-option --foo=bar", shell=True) |
| 18:35.13 | muep | you would be much better off doing subprocess.call(["some-tool", "--some-option", "--foo=bar"]) |
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| 18:36.53 | muep | in the first case, your program forks and executes a shell (which one? varies between systems) and feeds a string into it which the shell will then execute. in the latter case, your program forks and executes the called program directly |
| 18:37.08 | msiism | muep: ok, i've always wondered why you would be using python for gui apps, when it's an interpeted language (like bash). that shed some light on it. |
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| 18:57.23 | ejr | wow, huge update for devuan jessie today? |
| 19:00.10 | KatolaZ | ejr? |
| 19:00.14 | KatolaZ | for devuan jessie? |
| 19:00.15 | KatolaZ | o_O |
| 19:00.16 | debdog | unlikely. define 'huge' |
| 19:00.27 | KatolaZ | ejr: unlikely, define "update" |
| 19:01.05 | KatolaZ | ejr: ^^^^ |
| 19:01.09 | KatolaZ | ejr: please explain |
| 19:01.23 | KatolaZ | ejr: is there anything unusual in jessie? |
| 19:01.33 | debdog | libroffice? |
| 19:01.38 | debdog | *libre |
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| 19:06.12 | *** topic/#devuan is Recent (2017-05-25): Jessie 1.0.0 stable release http://ur1.ca/qxaa5 || This is the Devuan https://devuan.org/ discussion channel (logged at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan - with useful 'search') | Please take off-topic conversation to #debianfork | /msg chanserv info #devuan | !listkeys #devuan <foo> | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ |
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| 19:22.55 | Nematocyst | performed dist-upgrade to ascii. xfce4 volume/mixer disappeared. trying to install from synaptic: Package xfce4-mixer has no available version, but exists in the database. |
| 19:23.08 | Nematocyst | same with wicd |
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| 19:35.20 | msiism | Nematocyst: xfce4-mixer is not in the db on my freshly upgraded ascii system. |
| 19:35.40 | KatolaZ | msiism: xfce4-mixer was *removed* from stretch |
| 19:35.43 | KatolaZ | so upstream |
| 19:35.48 | KatolaZ | not by devuan |
| 19:35.51 | msiism | KatolaZ: i see. |
| 19:36.10 | msiism | KatolaZ: so that answers Nematocyst's question. |
| 19:36.19 | KatolaZ | oh sorry |
| 19:36.22 | KatolaZ | didn't see that one |
| 19:36.26 | msiism | np |
| 19:36.33 | KatolaZ | yes, I guess so |
| 19:37.26 | msiism | Nematocyst: wicd, however, is in the package db. |
| 19:37.30 | Nematocyst | msiism, i was wrong about wicd. i can install it (though why it disappered, i don't know). also there is a pulseaudio xfce4 plugin that seems ok... not a fan of pulse but anyway |
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| 19:37.44 | KatolaZ | Nematocyst: you also have apulse in ascii, BTW |
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| 20:12.19 | msiism | ok, so ascii has g++-6, but building iridium browser requires g++-5. how could i make this work? |
| 20:14.28 | KatolaZ | msiism: ascii has also g++4.9, IIRC |
| 20:15.03 | KatolaZ | oh maybe that's a relic from jessie |
| 20:15.07 | KatolaZ | dunno |
| 20:15.15 | msiism | KatolaZ: i think so. |
| 20:16.09 | msiism | KatolaZ: i thought there may be a way to tell g++ to act as g++-5, like you can do with gcc by specifying CC=gcc-x.y |
| 20:16.47 | msiism | but i would not know how this can be done in the context of using dpkg-buildpackage |
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| 20:23.08 | msiism | ok, it seem you can justappend -d to the dpkg-buildpackage command, to force it to not care about unmet build deps. as there is only g++-5 left, i will try that now. |
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| 20:45.48 | blop | argh. i forgot the fix for this.. binutils-arm-linux-gnueabihf : Depends: binutils (= 2.28-5) but 2.28-6 is to be installed |
| 20:46.19 | blop | some way to specify the version |
| 20:47.22 | blop | ah =version |
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| 20:52.15 | blop | ah no wrong term window, still same error, different version |
| 20:52.23 | blop | <PROTECTED> |
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| 21:33.06 | clemens3 | blop: does something like this help? apt-get install --reinstall oldpackage-version.. anyway, better people with deb package management around |
| 21:33.38 | clemens3 | blop: just remember I had similar problem when first time moved from raspian to devuan via upgrade and not fresh install |
| 21:33.42 | blop | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:33.45 | blop | that seems weird |
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| 22:34.11 | *** topic/#devuan is Recent (2017-05-25): Jessie 1.0.0 stable release http://ur1.ca/qxaa5 || This is the Devuan https://devuan.org/ discussion channel (logged at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan - with useful 'search') | Please take off-topic conversation to #debianfork | /msg chanserv info #devuan | !listkeys #devuan <foo> | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ |
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