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| 01:08.19 | FatPhil | good timing, or bad - I was just about to go to bed, and then I noticed the a zillion bot attacks on my mailserver, which alas fail2ban wasn't smart enough to block. |
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| 01:20.10 | *** topic/#devuan is Recent (2017-05-25): Jessie 1.0.0 stable release http://ur1.ca/qxaa5 || This is the Devuan https://devuan.org/ discussion channel (logged at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan - with useful 'search') | Please take off-topic conversation to #debianfork | /msg chanserv info #devuan | !listkeys #devuan <foo> | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ |
| 01:34.29 | golinux | FatPhil: Are you haveing a bad day? |
| 01:34.39 | golinux | -e |
| 01:37.29 | FatPhil | golinux: bad-ish. But happy to have a live devuan/raspi server on the real internet, almost replacing the PC I lost a few days ago. |
| 01:41.14 | FatPhil | I think I've linked the ntpd logs with these syscalls: adjtimex({modes=ADJ_OFFSET|ADJ_NANO|0x8000...) = 5 (TIME_ERROR) |
| 01:49.55 | FatPhil | right, bed for real this time |
| 01:52.38 | golinux | Tomorrow is another day . . . |
| 01:52.54 | golinux | hopefully |
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| 04:41.28 | Centurion_Dan | crap... spector meltdown hardware vulnerabilities... you can't trust you cpu's... |
| 04:50.29 | Xenguy | Pretty disheartening isn't it |
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| 04:53.05 | Centurion_Dan | https://spectreattack.com/ |
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| 04:53.56 | Centurion_Dan | there aren't yet fully patched kernels for debian/devuan: |
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| 07:09.44 | Centurion_Dan | 4.9.65-3+deb9u2 in ascii has a fix for CVE-2017-5754 the meltdown attack.. |
| 07:12.08 | Centurion_Dan | see https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/CVE-2017-5754 |
| 07:12.36 | Centurion_Dan | oops ascii-security has a patched kernel... |
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| 14:23.52 | fsmithred | meltdown fix in stretch must have happened in the last 24 hours or so. This page showed everything as vulnerable yesterday, and today stretch is fixed (therefore ascii is fixed) https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/source-package/linux |
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| 14:41.45 | cake_ | https://www.debian.org/security/2018/dsa-4078 |
| 14:41.51 | cake_ | Date Reported: 04 Jan 2018 |
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| 15:18.55 | FatPhil | Wondering if a patched kernel is available... I just misread my aptitude progress indicator - I thought it said "Waiting for hackers" |
| 15:19.53 | djph | unless something's changed in the past 2 hours, kernel is coming from upstream on Monday |
| 15:20.16 | djph | ... or if I misread the news. I could've done that too |
| 15:20.50 | fsmithred | there's a patched kernel in ascii-security |
| 15:21.56 | jaromil | yep, is there already. get prepared to performance degradation... |
| 15:22.24 | fsmithred | even with amd cpu? |
| 15:23.08 | nepugia | as per sourcecode, no, the fix for meltdown only applies to intel cpu |
| 15:23.28 | fsmithred | cool |
| 15:24.35 | nepugia | well, only to !amd really :) |
| 15:32.37 | jaromil | isnt' amd also affected? |
| 15:33.59 | nepugia | there are two seperate issues, amd is not affected by the first one (called metldown), it is by the second one |
| 15:35.20 | jaromil | ack, thanks. |
| 15:39.24 | Ryushin | Anyone running ceres? Wondering if apt-cache search libplacebo shows anything. It's listed under sid contents ftp://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/dists/sid/main/ but it does not show up for me when searching for it. I can download it manually, but I'm trying to find out why it does not show up. |
| 15:43.30 | fsmithred | Ryushin, it's called libplacebo2 and it's in sid/ceres |
| 15:43.41 | FatPhil | 's on ARM anyway, but the spectre paper did mention that some of the techniques applied to ARM too (though perhaps without the ring violation aspect). |
| 15:47.20 | Lydia_K | Oh wow, I need to install libplacebo right away |
| 15:47.24 | Lydia_K | it'll make me feel so much better. |
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| 15:49.04 | Ryushin | fsmithred: Odd then. apt-cache search libplacebo2 or libplacebo-dev results in nothing showing up. |
| 15:49.59 | fsmithred | shows up here. You using pkgmaster or auto.mirror? |
| 15:50.18 | Ryushin | auto.mirror |
| 15:50.56 | Ryushin | Just looked up the sources on devuan to see what they should now. |
| 15:51.23 | fsmithred | change auto.mirror.devuan.org to pkgmaster.devuan.org - if you haven't done upgrade lately, install devuan-keyring before you change repo |
| 15:51.44 | fsmithred | time to go. see you all later |
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| 16:00.09 | OmegaPhil | Yeah, looks like linux-source-4.9=4.9.65-3+deb9u2 (ascii-security) isn't on auto.mirror, but is on pkgmaster |
| 16:00.45 | OmegaPhil | What a mess. |
| 16:01.00 | OmegaPhil | needs to compile the kernel for headers for then compiling aufs |
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| 16:10.13 | Ryushin | Yep, pkgmaster fixed the problem. |
| 16:10.29 | OmegaPhil | Now its failing to pick the default release here :/ |
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| 16:10.42 | OmegaPhil | Its trying to install unstable even though the defualt release is ascii/testing... |
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| 16:15.40 | chillfan | What are the line(s) you're trying to use in sources.list? |
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| 16:16.29 | FatPhil | and don't forget things secreted away in sources.list.d/ |
| 16:17.24 | OmegaPhil | https://pastebin.com/YyYzx9wq |
| 16:17.50 | OmegaPhil | This gives access to everything for testing. /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/00defaultrelease' is then supposed to set APT::Default-Release "testing"; |
| 16:18.14 | OmegaPhil | I've had to switch between 'ascii' and 'testing' in the past to have stuff work, but now both are no good |
| 16:18.14 | OmegaPhil | min |
| 16:18.46 | OmegaPhil | I don't use /etc/apt/sources.list.d, theres nothing in it |
| 16:19.10 | OmegaPhil | (I use an apt cache/proxy, thats why the URLs include the IP address of a local box) |
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| 16:21.48 | OmegaPhil | plays with switching back to auto.mirror |
| 16:22.48 | chillfan | they look ok to me, apart from a complicated setup, guess you're using pinning a fair bit there |
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| 16:23.11 | OmegaPhil | Only to kill off some pottering cancerware |
| 16:23.21 | OmegaPhil | The default release is the thing that stops Everything getting installed |
| 16:23.54 | OmegaPhil | Even though this is 'broken', its only picked up the kenrel and a few others to update |
| 16:24.04 | OmegaPhil | Perhaps its time I tear appart this 'default release' stuff |
| 16:25.49 | chillfan | Yeah, maybe the default release thing doesn't work well.. pin priorities will do the same, no? |
| 16:26.11 | OmegaPhil | I don't want to pin everything :p |
| 16:26.18 | OmegaPhil | I'll work it out |
| 16:26.28 | OmegaPhil | I think the main thing is auto.mirror is incomplete |
| 16:26.36 | OmegaPhil | whatever that really means |
| 16:26.58 | OmegaPhil | (i.e. picking an incomplete mirror or something) |
| 16:27.04 | OmegaPhil | goes to play with the problem |
| 16:30.27 | OmegaPhil | Yep, somethings properly upset it on the VM: |
| 16:30.30 | OmegaPhil | E: The value 'ascii' is invalid for APT::Default-Release as such a release is not available in the sources |
| 16:30.30 | OmegaPhil | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:30.37 | OmegaPhil | digs |
| 16:30.58 | OmegaPhil | This is even with auto.mirror |
| 16:33.31 | KatolaZ | OmegaPhil: ? |
| 16:33.52 | KatolaZ | OmegaPhil: you should use pkgmaster.devuan.org with ascii |
| 16:34.52 | OmegaPhil | k. I've hit on a different problem though (as mentioned above). Will take some time to work out |
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| 16:35.50 | KatolaZ | OmegaPhil: you should use "ascii" for ascii, not "testing" |
| 16:35.59 | OmegaPhil | I did originally. |
| 16:36.17 | OmegaPhil | going to switch back now and test regardless |
| 16:36.17 | KatolaZ | so? |
| 16:36.23 | KatolaZ | test what? |
| 16:36.29 | OmegaPhil | what you just said. |
| 16:36.52 | chillfan | it's generally advised to use codenames instead of the testing/unstable/stable links, since when ascii is released you'll automatically upgrade to beowulf instead |
| 16:37.05 | KatolaZ | chillfan: ascii is not testing anyway |
| 16:37.08 | OmegaPhil | Thats what I want to do |
| 16:37.19 | OmegaPhil | Devuan doesnt have a Testing |
| 16:37.28 | OmegaPhil | Which broke shit for me a few months ago |
| 16:37.29 | KatolaZ | OmegaPhil: no it doesn't, atm |
| 16:37.42 | KatolaZ | OmegaPhil: if you read the webpage, you can't break anything |
| 16:37.45 | OmegaPhil | But the repos are still considered 'testing' |
| 16:37.56 | KatolaZ | we do not suggest to use stable/testing anywhere |
| 16:37.57 | EHeM | chillfan: Fairly often that is what one desires; at a minimum one does want a hint when a new release is out. |
| 16:38.07 | KatolaZ | no OmegaPhil |
| 16:38.16 | KatolaZ | nobody has said that ascii is testing |
| 16:38.26 | OmegaPhil | apt says it has 'testing' repos |
| 16:38.33 | OmegaPhil | Thats what I mean. |
| 16:38.41 | OmegaPhil | And yes, this is different from Debian then. |
| 16:38.46 | KatolaZ | OmegaPhil: we have not said anywhere to use stable/testing/unstable |
| 16:38.56 | OmegaPhil | And? I come from Debian :) |
| 16:39.00 | KatolaZ | we say everywhere "jessie/ascii/ceres" |
| 16:39.08 | KatolaZ | we all come from debian, OmegaPhil |
| 16:39.09 | KatolaZ | ... |
| 16:39.19 | OmegaPhil | Right, and using stable/testing etc works |
| 16:39.24 | OmegaPhil | unstable, experimental, etc |
| 16:39.37 | OmegaPhil | Its just the recent few months where this clearly broke |
| 16:39.51 | EHeM | "stable"/"testing"/"unstable" is discouraged for Debian too, yet since for many purposes often it is still handy to use those strings. |
| 16:40.25 | OmegaPhil | used it for rolling upgrades |
| 16:41.21 | KatolaZ | OmegaPhil: and that's not supported in Devuan so far |
| 16:41.28 | OmegaPhil | Roger. |
| 16:41.40 | OmegaPhil | Yeah, pkgmaster + ascii is still borked |
| 16:41.56 | OmegaPhil | Its probably a screwup in the apt system, its happened from time to time in Debian according to my notes |
| 16:42.08 | EHeM | Using "jessie"/"ascii"/"ceres" would be greatly helped if APT had support for macros/substitution, in which case you only need the codename in *one* place in the file instead of every repository line. |
| 16:42.55 | KatolaZ | OmegaPhil: what are you talking about??? |
| 16:43.03 | KatolaZ | define "borked", please |
| 16:43.16 | OmegaPhil | E: The value 'ascii' is invalid for APT::Default-Release as such a release is not available in the sources |
| 16:43.34 | OmegaPhil | I'm about to look into why. |
| 16:43.36 | KatolaZ | OmegaPhil: why don't you just use "ascii" in your sources.list? |
| 16:43.48 | OmegaPhil | It is? |
| 16:44.05 | OmegaPhil | What I was talking about was the Default-Release value |
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| 16:44.14 | OmegaPhil | That has now been set to ascii. |
| 16:45.29 | KatolaZ | OmegaPhil: you should not mix repos... |
| 16:45.54 | OmegaPhil | Yes, I should... I normally use the equivalent of Testing/Unstable |
| 16:45.59 | OmegaPhil | 99% Testing. |
| 16:46.08 | OmegaPhil | And I test with many |
| 16:46.34 | OmegaPhil | This is not unusual either. |
| 16:46.35 | KatolaZ | OmegaPhil: technically speaking, ascii is not a "testing" |
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| 16:46.47 | OmegaPhil | Yes, I understand. |
| 16:46.47 | KatolaZ | stretch was released back in June |
| 16:46.53 | OmegaPhil | Yes, I know. |
| 16:47.00 | KatolaZ | ok |
| 16:47.02 | OmegaPhil | Its basically Stable |
| 16:47.21 | OmegaPhil | But thats because Devuan is stuck a version back atm |
| 16:47.27 | OmegaPhil | So its still Testing + Unstable to me |
| 16:47.43 | OmegaPhil | (Jessie is Devuan Stable) |
| 16:48.17 | KatolaZ | OmegaPhil: can I ask what you want to do exactly? |
| 16:48.26 | KatolaZ | maybe we can help |
| 16:49.08 | OmegaPhil | I'm trying to do a full-upgrade on pkg-master, but apt is ignoring Default-Release |
| 16:49.23 | OmegaPhil | So its picking up a 'too new' (probably Ceres) kernel |
| 16:49.26 | EHeM | Right now that version back is kind of urgent given how we've now got "Spectre" and |
| 16:49.33 | EHeM | "Meltdown". |
| 16:49.36 | OmegaPhil | is a Devuan maintainer as well you know |
| 16:50.29 | OmegaPhil | Originally I was on auto.mirror, I only moved because I found that it was missing a linux-sourc-4.9 version associated with ascii-security |
| 16:51.02 | OmegaPhil | But the move seems to have upset apt, and now it doesn't think it can match the Default-Release value |
| 16:51.03 | KatolaZ | EHeM: ascii already has the kernel upgrade |
| 16:51.15 | KatolaZ | EHeM: if you have ascii-security enabled |
| 16:51.31 | KatolaZ | EHeM: and stretch is the *only* debian release to have a patched kernel atm |
| 16:51.40 | KatolaZ | so it's better to *not* hurry upo in this case |
| 16:52.06 | KatolaZ | OmegaPhil: I know, so you don't need help? :P |
| 16:52.20 | OmegaPhil | If someone can click their fingers and it works, sure |
| 16:52.27 | OmegaPhil | Otherwise, I need to take apt apart |
| 16:52.40 | KatolaZ | OmegaPhil: I guess there is no need to rip apt apart.. ;) |
| 16:53.01 | OmegaPhil | Its happened occassionally a few times, but it usualy mysteriously goes away when I play with the Default-Release value when I was on Debian |
| 16:53.07 | KatolaZ | OmegaPhil: auto.mirror is not merging ascii-security correctly |
| 16:53.13 | OmegaPhil | Yeah, indeed |
| 16:53.44 | OmegaPhil | (I actually think the two things are separate, when I switch back to auto.mirror apt still complains) |
| 16:53.50 | KatolaZ | so OmegaPhil, again, |
| 16:53.53 | OmegaPhil | Its just something 'set it off'. |
| 16:54.05 | KatolaZ | you have a Default-Release set to ascii |
| 16:54.09 | OmegaPhil | yes. |
| 16:54.13 | KatolaZ | and using pkgmaster |
| 16:54.21 | OmegaPhil | yes |
| 16:54.38 | KatolaZ | and the error is... |
| 16:54.50 | OmegaPhil | Ive already said a few times. |
| 16:55.02 | OmegaPhil | E: The value 'ascii' is invalid for APT::Default-Release as such a release is not available in the sources |
| 16:55.14 | OmegaPhil | It then selects a !ascii kernel to install |
| 16:55.16 | KatolaZ | context? |
| 16:55.22 | OmegaPhil | full-upgrade |
| 16:55.50 | KatolaZ | full-upgrade from jessie? |
| 16:56.00 | OmegaPhil | Nope? Its an ascii machine |
| 16:56.27 | OmegaPhil | lsb_release -a says 'Description: Devuan GNU/Linux testing/unstable' |
| 16:56.29 | KatolaZ | do you get the same with a simple "apt-get upgrade"? |
| 16:56.52 | OmegaPhil | Nope |
| 16:57.21 | OmegaPhil | (which makes sense, since that wont be a dist-upgrade) |
| 16:57.22 | KatolaZ | meaning that apt-get upgrade works as it should? |
| 16:57.25 | OmegaPhil | Yes. |
| 16:57.36 | KatolaZ | do you get the same with an "apt-get dist-upgrade"? |
| 16:58.17 | OmegaPhil | Hmm, it doesn't tell me the versions, min |
| 16:58.41 | KatolaZ | add "-s" |
| 16:59.03 | OmegaPhil | Cheers, yes it tries to get a ceres kernel |
| 16:59.21 | KatolaZ | and gives you the same error? |
| 16:59.34 | OmegaPhil | No, it doesn't mention why |
| 16:59.45 | KatolaZ | OmegaPhil: do you have any active pins? |
| 17:00.40 | OmegaPhil | No aholds, a load of pottering stuff is pinned to -100 |
| 17:00.49 | OmegaPhil | No kernel stuff |
| 17:00.51 | KatolaZ | and nothing else? |
| 17:01.07 | OmegaPhil | I'll pastebin it |
| 17:01.14 | OmegaPhil | but its pretty straightforward |
| 17:01.30 | KatolaZ | OmegaPhil: if it was straightforward, it should have worked ;) |
| 17:01.42 | OmegaPhil | You have a lot of faith. |
| 17:02.11 | KatolaZ | I just know that there is nothing straightforward in package management |
| 17:02.22 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 17:02.25 | OmegaPhil | https://pastebin.com/XHtDt7gX |
| 17:03.06 | KatolaZ | OmegaPhil: sources.list? |
| 17:03.31 | OmegaPhil | https://pastebin.com/YyYzx9wq |
| 17:03.56 | OmegaPhil | I use an apt-proxy to cache stuff, thats why it goes through a local box |
| 17:04.13 | KatolaZ | you are still using packages.devuan.org.... |
| 17:04.38 | KatolaZ | for ascii-proposed |
| 17:04.42 | OmegaPhil | Ah, theres some that werent auto.mirror as it didn't carry proposed |
| 17:04.44 | OmegaPhil | Min |
| 17:05.05 | KatolaZ | pkgmaster has all of them |
| 17:05.12 | KatolaZ | but this cannot be the problem |
| 17:05.27 | OmegaPhil | still worth changing anyway |
| 17:07.15 | KatolaZ | OmegaPhil: what happens if you comment out the "ceres" lines? |
| 17:07.19 | KatolaZ | and retry? |
| 17:07.30 | OmegaPhil | Its still updating, min |
| 17:09.49 | KatolaZ | OmegaPhil: can you paste the line that defines Default-Release, please? |
| 17:09.59 | OmegaPhil | Yeah, naturally its happy when ceres is commmented out |
| 17:10.30 | KatolaZ | OmegaPhil: ^^ |
| 17:10.34 | OmegaPhil | https://pastebin.com/gPQxwbg8 |
| 17:10.52 | KatolaZ | OmegaPhil: remove the doublequotes |
| 17:10.53 | KatolaZ | .... |
| 17:10.56 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 17:11.01 | KatolaZ | and it will work |
| 17:11.28 | KatolaZ | (or should, I guess) |
| 17:11.46 | OmegaPhil | just testing atm, but this has been used for years now with Debian |
| 17:11.57 | KatolaZ | OmegaPhil: please try |
| 17:12.11 | OmegaPhil | Still borked |
| 17:12.42 | OmegaPhil | I'm going to turn off the proxy and see if it still fails |
| 17:12.53 | KatolaZ | yep |
| 17:13.01 | KatolaZ | because it works for me |
| 17:13.10 | KatolaZ | with the same conf |
| 17:13.10 | OmegaPhil | And it worked for me before :) |
| 17:13.18 | OmegaPhil | As I said, it happens occassionally |
| 17:13.27 | OmegaPhil | So something unseen has changed |
| 17:13.38 | KatolaZ | OmegaPhil: nothing has changed |
| 17:13.54 | KatolaZ | nothing that could be related |
| 17:14.02 | OmegaPhil | Your end, my end, etc |
| 17:14.08 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 17:14.17 | KatolaZ | OmegaPhil: please disable the proxy |
| 17:17.09 | OmegaPhil | Sigh, it was going at 2MB/Sec about half an hour ago, now its 230KB/Sec. |
| 17:17.44 | OmegaPhil | Nope, same |
| 17:19.12 | OmegaPhil | I'll look into apt |
| 17:29.50 | KatolaZ | OmegaPhil: please let me know what you find |
| 17:29.56 | OmegaPhil | Sure. |
| 17:30.05 | OmegaPhil | Its not a string in aptitude anyway. Going deeper |
| 17:30.27 | KatolaZ | OmegaPhil: I am not able to reproduce your error, BTW |
| 17:30.31 | KatolaZ | I have included ceres |
| 17:30.37 | OmegaPhil | I'm not surprised |
| 17:30.39 | KatolaZ | and put Default-Release ascii |
| 17:30.45 | KatolaZ | and it works correctly |
| 17:30.45 | OmegaPhil | I havent done anything to cause it either |
| 17:30.47 | KatolaZ | :\ |
| 17:31.11 | KatolaZ | oh hold on |
| 17:31.25 | KatolaZ | there are still some packages that would be taken from unstable.... |
| 17:31.26 | KatolaZ | mmmhhhh |
| 17:31.41 | KatolaZ | so it seems like I can reproduce it, to some extent |
| 17:31.58 | KatolaZ | OmegaPhil: can you please file a report to bugs.devuan.org? |
| 17:31.59 | OmegaPhil | Yeah I dont understand why it doesnt jump on ALL packages it can update |
| 17:32.14 | OmegaPhil | OK. |
| 17:33.55 | OmegaPhil | The string is in libapt-pkg, so I'll file it there for now (libapt-pkg5.0$) |
| 17:34.02 | OmegaPhil | This is unlikely to be a Devuan bug though. |
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| 18:28.03 | FatPhil | dhcp's being a bit confusing. Which service spawns dhclient? service --status-all lists no dhcp-alike, and grepping /etc/init.d/* for dhc yields nothing. |
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| 18:31.08 | FatPhil | ah, it's hooked into the ifup scripts |
| 18:31.30 | FatPhil | attempting to change my dhcp client over a remote connection, this might be fun... |
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| 20:01.18 | Joshua__ | anybody here? |
| 20:02.00 | parazyd | don't ask to ask, just ask |
| 20:03.02 | Joshua__ | I want to start contributing to the Devuan project, what are the biggest issues currently? Has the udev stuff been completed yet? etc |
| 20:04.58 | chillfan | the eudev transitionals are in place for ascii, so that's done with |
| 20:05.54 | Joshua__ | Oh good. I couldn't find a roadmap or anything stating the to-do's of the project by weight/urgency |
| 20:06.12 | parazyd | we're at the state where we have to build the ascii cd installers |
| 20:06.13 | Joshua__ | What are the biggest things that still need to be done to become completely independent of systemd? |
| 20:06.28 | Joshua__ | Ah ok. I'll start taking a look at that stuff then. |
| 20:06.30 | parazyd | i'd advise joining in the meeting next wednesday |
| 20:06.43 | parazyd | either video (jitsi) or text (irc) so you can catch up |
| 20:06.45 | Joshua__ | Is there a page that has that meeting info? Like schedules? |
| 20:06.55 | parazyd | every wednesday |
| 20:07.02 | Joshua__ | Time? |
| 20:07.03 | parazyd | 20:30 UTC |
| 20:07.13 | parazyd | here's last week's notes, hold on |
| 20:07.18 | Joshua__ | ok |
| 20:07.20 | chillfan | As far as systemd goes, we need more maintainers to remove libsystemd0 dependency.. but that's not a priority.. it's for the point release |
| 20:07.30 | chillfan | point releases^ |
| 20:07.34 | nemo | huh. ascii still requires systemd? |
| 20:07.36 | nemo | as a stub? |
| 20:07.47 | chillfan | no, but there are bits with libsystemd0 left |
| 20:07.47 | parazyd | Joshua__: https://pad.dyne.org/code/#/1/edit/o7stK3GxgxOVAt-gJylDqw/JXymE3Dwz5xa6zOP-0Ot+xy8/ |
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| 20:08.11 | Joshua__ | thanks |
| 20:08.12 | parazyd | not much, since holidays, et al, but next wed. should be more active |
| 20:08.46 | parazyd | chillfan: wrt libsystemd0, there's an unwritten plan of forking systemd and making all the functions in libsystemd noop |
| 20:08.59 | parazyd | it's easier than forking all packages depending on it |
| 20:09.07 | Joshua__ | wait, so leaving it as a shim? |
| 20:09.15 | parazyd | whatever you want to call it |
| 20:09.23 | parazyd | all the functions would be noop |
| 20:09.31 | chillfan | Ah ok |
| 20:09.50 | Joshua__ | hmm... is that a temporary plan? |
| 20:09.56 | Joshua__ | That seems like a dirty solution tbh |
| 20:09.59 | parazyd | no |
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| 20:10.05 | parazyd | and it's not dirty tbh |
| 20:10.11 | parazyd | saves our resources |
| 20:10.25 | Joshua__ | so what parts would be left, as in what functions would be called by mainstream packages? |
| 20:10.37 | parazyd | otherwise we have dozens of packages we have to maintain so they don't depend on libsysted |
| 20:10.38 | Joshua__ | is it mostly for pam stuff? |
| 20:10.41 | parazyd | this is easier |
| 20:10.42 | parazyd | i dunno |
| 20:10.56 | parazyd | but mostly yes, nothing essential to have the packages functional |
| 20:10.58 | Joshua__ | hmm... ill have to ask in that meeting |
| 20:11.21 | Joshua__ | so basically we havent really migrated away from systemd-shim |
| 20:11.33 | Joshua__ | just deprecated that transitional package and left libsystemd0 |
| 20:11.45 | parazyd | right |
| 20:11.56 | parazyd | but libsystemd0 does nothing if systemd is not present |
| 20:12.07 | parazyd | it's just for the sake of mind i want to make it noop |
| 20:12.32 | msiism | what's noop? |
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| 20:12.46 | Joshua__ | noop is nonoperative |
| 20:12.49 | chillfan | the ideal would be if more developers/maintainers show up remove it in packages but there's going to be a lot more of them from debian i think, until we leave it as the parent |
| 20:13.01 | msiism | Joshua__: ok. thanks. |
| 20:13.09 | Joshua__ | apparently the plan is to leave a neutered libsystemd0 for packages to reference without having to rewrite package that depend on systemd |
| 20:13.17 | parazyd | right |
| 20:13.32 | parazyd | and then we don't have to maintain all the packages depending on libsystemd |
| 20:13.49 | parazyd | saves us a lot of resources and the need for manpower |
| 20:13.52 | Joshua__ | i still think its not ideal, but would be better if package developers would hop on board and maintain their packages in a way that dont NEED systemd |
| 20:14.03 | Joshua__ | which is stupid that they do... it totally breaks the unix philosophy |
| 20:14.07 | parazyd | hardly debian maintainers will jump ship |
| 20:14.29 | parazyd | in stretch/ascii even openssh wants libsystemd |
| 20:14.33 | parazyd | (for PAM) |
| 20:14.35 | Joshua__ | is there some list of packages that require systemd floating around? |
| 20:14.39 | parazyd | sure |
| 20:14.40 | parazyd | sec |
| 20:14.47 | parazyd | https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/libsystemd.txt |
| 20:14.51 | Joshua__ | thanks |
| 20:15.03 | Joshua__ | shiieeet |
| 20:15.06 | parazyd | these are packages that have libsystemd0 in their dependency list |
| 20:15.06 | EHeM | katamarid seems the best term for systemd. |
| 20:15.09 | msiism | parazyd: ok, but if more people would step up as package maintainers, you could drop that policy package by package, right? |
| 20:15.34 | parazyd | msiism: sure, but you have to dedicate yourself to maintaining the package |
| 20:15.36 | Joshua__ | wth debian, some freedom and stability |
| 20:15.56 | parazyd | it hasn't worked out quite well so far |
| 20:16.03 | Joshua__ | debian, the turtle of distros, adopted systemd so fast and like immediately ditched the old way of doing things... its just insane. |
| 20:16.10 | parazyd | and the less we deviate from debian - the bette |
| 20:16.12 | parazyd | r |
| 20:16.27 | chillfan | debian has the advantage of going upstream |
| 20:16.31 | msiism | parazyd: i know and this is more than a bit of work in most cases. |
| 20:16.39 | parazyd | Joshua__: i still love the hacks of keeping /etc/init.d :p |
| 20:16.43 | Joshua__ | and the debian devs have expressed no desire to maintain their packages in a way that doenst *require* systemd, but offers extra functions if it is present? |
| 20:16.43 | chillfan | so maintainers just know what's going on, when they will upload changes |
| 20:16.46 | parazyd | Joshua__: (with systemd) |
| 20:17.11 | Joshua__ | .nick ansabhailte |
| 20:17.16 | Joshua__ | man i know crap about irc |
| 20:17.26 | parazyd | Joshua__: debian packaging unfortunately doesn't work that way. you write down a dep in debian/control, and it's there. never optional |
| 20:18.24 | msiism | parazyd: also, i don't think that deviating more from debian over time is a bad thing per se. |
| 20:18.26 | ansabhailte | debian why |
| 20:18.46 | parazyd | deviating sure, there is even the openrc plan |
| 20:19.02 | ansabhailte | is that something being tossed around? |
| 20:19.03 | chillfan | I think it's a good thing if there's manpower, eudev is a nice change since it's unique in devuan |
| 20:19.03 | parazyd | but what i meant, it's better for us to maintain as less packages as possible |
| 20:19.08 | ansabhailte | implementing openrc in devuan? |
| 20:19.16 | parazyd | ansabhailte: yeah, that's coming for sure |
| 20:19.19 | parazyd | as default init |
| 20:19.22 | msiism | parazyd: ok. true. |
| 20:19.36 | ansabhailte | well ideally if we gain enough steam we should end up maintaining more packages tbh, if they keep nestling them deeper and deeper into systemd its gonna get real stupid. |
| 20:20.03 | chillfan | with more maintainers you can break away, but see apt-cache search . | wc -l :p |
| 20:20.23 | parazyd | slow and steady wins the race |
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| 20:21.18 | ansabhailte | i mean i think a good course of action for the time being is picking the most mission-critical packages that now require systemd and forking them now. |
| 20:21.32 | ansabhailte | that way if they make them too hard to shim, theres already a devuan-maintained version |
| 20:21.38 | ansabhailte | basic stuff like openssh |
| 20:21.52 | parazyd | you can find most on git.devuan.org/devuan-packages/ |
| 20:22.07 | parazyd | libsystemd0 is not so urgent |
| 20:22.12 | chillfan | I think package repos would need a trim if not using debian as the parent.. there's some 50k+ packages in debian |
| 20:22.15 | parazyd | it's still harmless |
| 20:23.21 | OmegaPhil | KatolaZ: Still poking around, but have noticed something interesting (but not the whole answer): see 'apt-cache policy', find the line associated with ascii-security, 'n=None' rather than 'n=ascii' |
| 20:23.39 | parazyd | OmegaPhil: what's that about? |
| 20:23.55 | OmegaPhil | There are other sources with n=ascii, so overall apt is still lying about finding no ascii |
| 20:24.16 | OmegaPhil | See 3-4 hours ago |
| 20:24.36 | OmegaPhil | Looking into why Default-Release of 'ascii' suddenly isn't found on a VM of mine when I aptitude full-upgrade |
| 20:24.46 | OmegaPhil | Results in trying to upgrade to ceres kernel |
| 20:24.54 | parazyd | ascii-security isn't ascii |
| 20:25.13 | OmegaPhil | Err, what version of Devuan is it associated with then? |
| 20:25.14 | parazyd | ascii-security breaks reproducible builds for example |
| 20:25.37 | parazyd | ascii is ascii (equivalent stretch) |
| 20:25.42 | OmegaPhil | yes |
| 20:25.55 | OmegaPhil | ascii-security is an ascii repo like ascii-updates is? |
| 20:26.03 | parazyd | yes, but not default |
| 20:26.10 | parazyd | you use it opt-in |
| 20:26.13 | OmegaPhil | true. Its just named 'none' atm |
| 20:26.18 | parazyd | ok |
| 20:26.19 | OmegaPhil | At least on auto.mirror |
| 20:26.25 | parazyd | mmh |
| 20:26.30 | parazyd | is it correct on pkgmaster |
| 20:26.32 | parazyd | ? |
| 20:26.33 | OmegaPhil | doesn't know if this counts for much |
| 20:26.36 | OmegaPhil | min, I'll see |
| 20:26.38 | parazyd | because this is an amprolla thing |
| 20:26.58 | parazyd | on pkgmaster amprolla rewrites these headers |
| 20:27.08 | ansabhailte | random question, have any debian devs taken interest in helping devuan? or is it a clear divide? |
| 20:27.19 | OmegaPhil | Ah, pkgmaster has name 'ascii-security' |
| 20:27.29 | OmegaPhil | So auto.mirror really is irrelevant then :) |
| 20:27.32 | parazyd | OmegaPhil: yeah, for ascii we recommend using pkgmaster |
| 20:27.40 | parazyd | auto.mirror for now stays for jessie compat |
| 20:27.46 | OmegaPhil | Was using for testing this problem but k |
| 20:27.52 | chillfan | there are some debian devs in devuan iirc |
| 20:27.58 | ansabhailte | oh cool |
| 20:28.02 | parazyd | ansabhailte: there are some, but i dunno the names |
| 20:28.23 | ansabhailte | dont need the names, was just wondering about the state of affairs |
| 20:29.00 | parazyd | there are some ;) |
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| 20:29.42 | OmegaPhil | hiding, ready to add that cursed dependency into the bowls of some hidden plumbing package |
| 20:29.57 | chillfan | if i understand it, maintainers and developers in devuan try to work with debian (e.g if they need a feature talk to them upstream) |
| 20:30.31 | chillfan | because we only remove systemd |
| 20:30.54 | parazyd | at least we try to |
| 20:31.01 | parazyd | of course we implement our own things too |
| 20:31.10 | ansabhailte | naturally |
| 20:31.16 | parazyd | so far it's going well, without bitching |
| 20:31.22 | chillfan | yeah, point being I don't think debian are completely uncooperative :) |
| 20:31.36 | ansabhailte | well thats good |
| 20:31.52 | ansabhailte | glad to know they dont react with autistic ree'ing like too many people do when they hear "no systemd" |
| 20:32.25 | parazyd | don't trust 4chan |
| 20:33.26 | ansabhailte | haha i dont go on 4chan |
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| 20:33.41 | ansabhailte | reddit, however.... hates any dissension with systemd |
| 20:37.24 | ansabhailte | huh, so i see in the packages that network-manager doesnt install due to requiring systemd pam in ascii, yet i installed it fine a few days ago. are these issues not up to date? |
| 20:37.40 | ansabhailte | forgive any noob questions btw, im new to git stuff. never got into it |
| 20:38.13 | parazyd | i think a working version is in ascii-proposed (i might be wrong) |
| 20:38.28 | parazyd | but there is no nm-applet yet, just the CLI interface |
| 20:38.49 | chillfan | there are a few alternatives, wicd is the better known one |
| 20:39.05 | chillfan | the others I don't know the names of.. haven't kept up with it |
| 20:39.10 | blinkdog | recently I came across an awesome link for using git: https://github.com/k88hudson/git-flight-rules |
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| 20:39.22 | parazyd | yeah |
| 20:39.32 | chillfan | I'm learning as I go with git, because why not heh. |
| 20:39.45 | parazyd | though wicd doesn't do eduroam, or vpn, or 3G/4G, or anything |
| 20:39.48 | parazyd | just wired/wifi |
| 20:40.25 | chillfan | yeah, though imo there are better ways to do some of that |
| 20:40.38 | chillfan | just not if you want pointy clicky things |
| 20:40.51 | parazyd | right |
| 20:41.07 | parazyd | i don't , but most people do want it like that |
| 20:41.08 | ansabhailte | i mean... the main ascii repo has cinnamon which has network-manager and the frontend applet |
| 20:41.15 | ansabhailte | and it all works |
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| 20:41.55 | chillfan | I'm not sure but the sprint may have fixed that. It was discussed at least |
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| 20:43.59 | parazyd | chillfan: what exactly? |
| 20:44.13 | chillfan | network-manager, sure I remember something about it |
| 20:44.23 | parazyd | ah |
| 20:44.31 | parazyd | as i said, it's in ascii-proposed |
| 20:44.45 | parazyd | without nm-applet; just the cli interface |
| 20:45.03 | parazyd | for sure more work wi;; be done |
| 20:45.18 | parazyd | s/;;/ll/ |
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| 21:18.01 | FatPhil | WHat's happened to the "sux" package? |
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| 21:45.18 | mirda | hey, I am installing devuan on a raspberry pi 3 (64 bit image) |
| 21:46.10 | mirda | I installed package locales, but I have a problem, that dpkg-reconfigure locales is not permanent when I log out and then log in |
| 21:46.30 | mirda | $ env | grep LANG |
| 21:46.37 | mirda | LANG=C |
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| 21:46.57 | mirda | I need to set locale cs_CZ.UTF-8 |
| 21:47.15 | mirda | please is there some conf file or some way to permanently set it? |
| 21:47.29 | fsmithred | mirda, what's in /etc/default/locale? |
| 21:48.08 | mirda | # File generated by update-locale |
| 21:48.18 | mirda | LANG=cs_CZ.UTF-8 |
| 21:48.27 | fsmithred | ok |
| 21:48.35 | mirda | this two lines |
| 21:48.43 | mirda | *these |
| 21:49.13 | fsmithred | hang on |
| 21:49.36 | mirda | oki |
| 21:50.30 | fsmithred | you want it just for you or for all users? |
| 21:50.44 | mirda | for all users |
| 21:52.33 | fsmithred | put these two lines in a file in /etc/profile.d/ |
| 21:52.47 | fsmithred | export LANG=cs_CZ.UTF-8 |
| 21:53.01 | fsmithred | export LC_ALL=cs_CZ.UTF-* |
| 21:53.05 | fsmithred | 8 not * |
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| 21:53.19 | fsmithred | log out and log in |
| 21:53.26 | msiism | fsmithred: but that's not permanent accross reboots, is it? |
| 21:53.32 | fsmithred | yes |
| 21:53.45 | msiism | it is? |
| 21:53.46 | mirda | I will try |
| 21:53.47 | fsmithred | unless you |
| 21:53.57 | fsmithred | are running a live-CD |
| 21:54.22 | msiism | fsmithred: ok. |
| 21:54.39 | fsmithred | did you select that locale when you installed the system? |
| 21:55.39 | mirda | I installed the system via xzcat img.xz | dd of=/dev/mmcblk0 |
| 21:55.53 | fsmithred | oh |
| 21:56.13 | fsmithred | you might be missing some translation files |
| 21:56.17 | mirda | https://files.devuan.org/devuan_jessie/embedded/ |
| 21:56.44 | mirda | but when I set LC_ALL to cs_CZ.UTF-8 |
| 21:56.44 | fsmithred | when you ran dpkg-reconfigure locales, were all the locales already checked? |
| 21:57.02 | mirda | then ran dpkg-reconfigure locales |
| 21:57.26 | mirda | then new terminal (su root for example) had all ok |
| 21:59.20 | mirda | I have that problem with locale, that I can't type czech characters with diacritics (ÄÅ¡ÄÅžýáÃéúů) while I am logged in tty |
| 22:00.34 | fsmithred | I don't know much about that. I think there are supposed to be key combinations for that. |
| 22:00.55 | msiism | mirda: that might have sth to do with the selected keyboard layout. |
| 22:00.58 | mirda | dpkg-reconfigure console-setup: UTF8, guess optimal character set, font Fixed, size 8Ã16 |
| 22:01.20 | fsmithred | dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration |
| 22:02.15 | mirda | yes, dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration is set to Czech layout |
| 22:02.22 | mirda | I remembered to set it |
| 22:02.52 | mirda | but when i log out from tty and see login prompt, czech characters with diacritics works as expected |
| 22:03.11 | mirda | it don't work when i in to tty |
| 22:03.28 | mirda | *when i log ing |
| 22:03.29 | msiism | do you hae a local .bashrc file? |
| 22:03.42 | msiism | or .profle? |
| 22:03.56 | msiism | that might be overwriting your system-wide settings |
| 22:05.52 | mirda | both files exists but there is not anything related to locale |
| 22:05.57 | fsmithred | instructions for adding a missing locale http://termbin.com/9u80 |
| 22:08.32 | mirda | ah I found it |
| 22:08.39 | fsmithred | where? |
| 22:08.44 | mirda | [22:52:33] <fsmithred> put these two lines in a file in /etc/profile.d/ |
| 22:08.51 | mirda | so i looked there |
| 22:08.57 | fsmithred | locale.sh? |
| 22:09.01 | mirda | ls /etc/profile.d |
| 22:09.05 | mirda | locale.sh |
| 22:09.12 | mirda | cat: |
| 22:09.17 | mirda | export LANG=C |
| 22:09.20 | fsmithred | I thought that only showed up in live systems |
| 22:09.24 | mirda | export LC_ALL=C |
| 22:09.53 | mirda | i will try to comment it |
| 22:10.27 | fsmithred | did you add a file to the dir? |
| 22:11.09 | mirda | log out and log in - ÄÅ¡ÄÅžýáÃé works as expected |
| 22:11.17 | fsmithred | cool |
| 22:11.37 | mirda | I didn't add this file to the dir /etc/profile.d |
| 22:11.41 | fsmithred | if you have two files in that dir with similar lines, they get used alphabetically |
| 22:12.12 | mirda | that file locales.sh was already there |
| 22:12.17 | fsmithred | so if you added your export lines to a file |
| 22:12.22 | fsmithred | yes, I know it was already there |
| 22:12.36 | mirda | I only commented that two lines in this file |
| 22:12.38 | fsmithred | I was suggesting earlier that you add your own |
| 22:12.39 | fsmithred | right |
| 22:12.54 | mirda | when I run command 'locale' |
| 22:13.16 | mirda | it lists all variables with "cs_CZ.UTF-8" in them |
| 22:13.30 | mirda | almost all |
| 22:13.38 | mirda | LANGUAGE and LC_ALL are empty |
| 22:13.52 | mirda | but keys works as expected |
| 22:13.58 | mirda | thank you very much for help |
| 22:14.03 | fsmithred | yw |
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| 23:44.18 | FatPhil | a curse on "nano" for being "Priority: Important"! It's trash, and 5 times the size of an actual lighweight editor. |
| 23:45.50 | FatPhil | update-alternatives has the worst help evar |
| 23:46.15 | chillfan | the priorities are a bit of a mess really, but we inherit it from debian |
| 23:46.44 | chillfan | hm update-alternative --config <alternative-name> |
| 23:46.54 | chillfan | +s |
| 23:47.22 | metax | so vim or vi? |
| 23:47.59 | FatPhil | OK, so I now have zile selected, but its priority is 30, which is less than nano's 40. So what does priority actually *mean*? |
| 23:48.47 | fsmithred | priority determines the default (highest) but you just overrode that. |
| 23:49.23 | FatPhil | i'd have said that "most recently installed alternative" should be the default alternative after installing |
| 23:49.56 | FatPhil | otherwise it's just a random number invented by someone else with perverted views |
| 23:50.20 | FatPhil | I can happily emacsalike, vialike pretty well, but pico and its ilk must DIE! |
| 23:50.50 | chillfan | default editor for devuan is nano btw :p |
| 23:51.54 | FatPhil | hence me ranting on #devuan :p |
| 23:52.24 | chillfan | yeah, i'd prefer vi but whatever |
| 23:53.28 | metax | i also hate nanoshit |
| 23:54.13 | msiism | well, i don't. |
| 23:54.26 | msiism | and i usually refer to it as nano. |
| 23:54.46 | chillfan | it won't change because that discussion already happened on dng, moral of the story.. get involved in the discussion when the chance comes up I suppose |
| 23:57.30 | chillfan | nano is OK, I'm in the habit of it for editing config files |