| 00:00.02 | MinceR | at least others shouldn't copy them |
| 00:00.39 | mozerelli | Nope I was actually saying that they separate their web engines from their UI frameworks |
| 00:00.45 | mozerelli | Albeit their own engines |
| 00:01.21 | MinceR | oh |
| 00:01.45 | mozerelli | EdgeHTML is not part of the UWP framework for example |
| 00:02.03 | mozerelli | But the rendering engine in UWP is EdgeHTML |
| 00:02.45 | mozerelli | The same goes for Cocoa and the Android framework |
| 00:03.14 | mozerelli | While we safely can say those companies are 'shady' |
| 00:03.24 | mozerelli | What they do here is the right thing |
| 00:03.35 | mozerelli | Why can't Qt do this as well |
| 00:08.22 | mozerelli | I think it's time for a real foss gui framework with the unix philosophy in mind |
| 00:10.57 | KatolaZ | no gui framework can be based on the unix philosophy, IMHO |
| 00:11.09 | KatolaZ | or at least, not a GUI framework to construct DEs |
| 00:11.15 | KatolaZ | people want to do everything with DEs |
| 00:11.30 | KatolaZ | and this automagically results in bloated GUI frameworks |
| 00:11.36 | KatolaZ | it's unavoidable |
| 00:13.36 | mozerelli | what about plan9 |
| 00:14.56 | mozerelli | it might not have a real gui framework but the closest thing i can image is its rio window system |
| 00:15.15 | KatolaZ | which would not be regarded as a proper GUI framework by anybody interested in a DE |
| 00:15.37 | KatolaZ | rio is not even comparable to KDE |
| 00:15.49 | KatolaZ | rio is not what people wanting a DE have in mind |
| 00:17.02 | KatolaZ | otherwise those prople would use xmonad |
| 00:17.05 | KatolaZ | or dwm |
| 00:17.10 | KatolaZ | and they don't |
| 00:17.22 | mozerelli | tiling window managers? |
| 00:18.07 | KatolaZ | minimal |
| 00:18.21 | KatolaZ | tiling or not is irrelevant |
| 00:18.31 | KatolaZ | people wand eyecandie on their desktops |
| 00:18.37 | KatolaZ | swishing windows |
| 00:18.45 | KatolaZ | transparencies |
| 00:18.54 | KatolaZ | etc |
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| 00:19.02 | KatolaZ | this is not in the unix philosophy |
| 00:20.40 | n4dir | you can also use eyecandy on window-managers. |
| 00:21.05 | sokan | KatolaZ, wm like awesome, i3 etc are more close into unix philosophy? |
| 00:21.35 | MinceR | well, the toolkit could still be small and flexible |
| 00:21.41 | KatolaZ | yes they are sokan |
| 00:21.46 | KatolaZ | but they are not DEs |
| 00:21.55 | MinceR | i don't see why tiling would be more unixy |
| 00:21.55 | KatolaZ | and they don't require any "framework" |
| 00:22.01 | KatolaZ | nono MinceR |
| 00:22.10 | KatolaZ | 00:18 < KatolaZ> tiling or not is irrelevant |
| 00:22.13 | KatolaZ | ^^^ |
| 00:22.27 | KatolaZ | n4dir: sure you can, but still people don't |
| 00:22.49 | KatolaZ | and those who use KDE can't understand why anyone on earth would like to use i3 or WMaker |
| 00:23.16 | KatolaZ | 00:08 < mozerelli> I think it's time for a real foss gui framework with the unix philosophy in mind |
| 00:23.20 | KatolaZ | 00:08 < mozerelli> I think it's time for a real foss gui framework with the unix philosophy in mind |
| 00:23.27 | KatolaZ | I was answering to that ^^^ |
| 00:23.51 | sokan | I really want to check 'em out asap. i3 awesome and so on. But I think it requires familiarizing yourself with console and terminal emulator first. (and some time to customize commands iirc) |
| 00:25.19 | n4dir | can't say that you have to customize commands. Enabling |
| 00:25.21 | n4dir | # alternate mappings for "page up" and "page down" to search the history |
| 00:25.28 | n4dir | in /etc/inputrc helps a ton though |
| 00:26.01 | KatolaZ | n4dir: which DE user would accepr to edit /etc/inputrc by hand? |
| 00:26.02 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 00:26.12 | KatolaZ | s/accepr/accept |
| 00:27.02 | n4dir | :-) |
| 00:27.26 | KatolaZ | the unix philosophy is about tinkering, getting your hands dirty, customising, getting closer and closer to the machine |
| 00:27.41 | KatolaZ | this is the opposite of what DEs have in mind and try to deliver |
| 00:27.47 | n4dir | not sure what gave me grief when i switched to window-managers. I tried to do as much as possible "manually" before. The only thing which comes to my mind is "automounting" (which i never liked anyway) |
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| 00:29.41 | n4dir | and i am not a fan of desktop-icons. They are possible on some WM's (? pretty sure), but enabling them might be a bit of trouble. |
| 00:30.02 | KatolaZ | n4dir: some have something similar to icons |
| 00:30.07 | KatolaZ | WMaker, for instance |
| 00:30.13 | KatolaZ | even if the concept is a bit different |
| 00:30.24 | n4dir | lol. Yeah, i used it for a while. I like it, but never really got into the details |
| 00:30.31 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 00:31.20 | n4dir | the other day i already spoke of e17 (i think of it because it is another environment only few have in mind, like wmaker) |
| 00:31.33 | n4dir | loads of bling, of course ... |
| 00:31.39 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 00:31.54 | KatolaZ | e17 was a futuristic concept back in the days |
| 00:32.30 | KatolaZ | I haven't looked into it in the last 3-4 years though |
| 00:32.40 | KatolaZ | I know they have made fantastic progress |
| 00:36.03 | n4dir | Looked at it the other day. Seems to do the job well now. But the default settings are weird, and it has so much settings, that changing them takes quite a bit of click-click. |
| 00:36.38 | gnarface | i'm still using it but #e already considers it deprecated |
| 00:36.48 | gnarface | they're up to e21 or something like that now |
| 00:37.02 | n4dir | yeah. installed it, but i didn't know how to start it. lol |
| 00:37.04 | gnarface | they started requiring pulseaudio so i stopped upgrading |
| 00:37.16 | n4dir | ah, i see. |
| 00:38.59 | n4dir | all i want now is a command prompt and a few desktops. All the options in e would confuse me, so i will stick to awesome (and am giving openbox a try these days) |
| 00:40.21 | KatolaZ | n4dir: maybe have a look at some of the suckless utils |
| 00:40.30 | KatolaZ | I find "tabbed" particularly useful |
| 00:41.07 | KatolaZ | it allows you to stack a lot of different X applications in the same window |
| 00:41.23 | gnarface | i admit i've had to ask for help from #e to figure out some e17 settings. raster was still pretty helpful with anything it could actually do, but more or less unsympathetic towards any bugs or feature requests |
| 00:41.43 | KatolaZ | I started used it as a way to allow tabs in surf |
| 00:41.53 | KatolaZ | but I appreciated it also for terminals |
| 00:42.02 | KatolaZ | it's very convenient |
| 00:42.02 | sokan | e is a wm? |
| 00:42.09 | KatolaZ | enlightenment |
| 00:42.13 | KatolaZ | sokan: ^^^ |
| 00:42.15 | sokan | oooh |
| 00:43.06 | sokan | I tried it once as a DE but somehow it just didn't feel right. Too erm "glossy" (for lack of a better word in my mind atm) |
| 00:43.07 | KatolaZ | https://www.enlightenment.org/ |
| 00:43.08 | n4dir | e17 is a thing between a DE and a WM, imho. It sure is small (both: install MB and usage of RAM), but does quite a bit. There also was e16, which sure was a window-manager (but also with a lot of bling) |
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| 00:47.09 | fsmithred | pretty sure I still have a refracta508 iso with e17 |
| 00:47.44 | fsmithred | 508 was lenny - one of Dean's builds |
| 00:49.17 | fsmithred | pretty impressive for such a small footprint |
| 00:49.47 | gnarface | the biggest problem IMO with e17 is just that they were on to e18, e19 and e20 so fast none of the themes really got finished |
| 00:50.05 | gnarface | and with no reverse compatibility whatsoever, it doesn't have the rich theme catalog of e15 and e16 |
| 00:50.23 | gnarface | that's a fixable problem, in theory, but first a critical mass of people would have to care |
| 00:50.39 | gnarface | (personally my vote is for someone to finish night bling first) |
| 00:51.43 | n4dir | gnarface: my guess is that you are right. permanent changes have been a long time "problem" for them |
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| 00:54.11 | n4dir | never heard of e15, btw. |
| 01:01.45 | justinsm | I loved enlightenment, back when it was just a WM + a few utils. |
| 01:02.27 | justinsm | Ran it on Solaris instead of CDE. |
| 01:02.58 | n4dir | some distros still have it, assuming you mean e16 |
| 01:05.13 | mozerelli | don't hate on me but I think enlightenment looks like shit, my personal opinion |
| 01:05.37 | mozerelli | It looks like an amiga |
| 01:05.58 | justinsm | you could make it look however you wanted, that was the charm. |
| 01:07.19 | n4dir | would be a great advertisement though: "enlightenment - it looks like shit " |
| 01:08.16 | gnarface | nobody has made a shit theme for it yet, but i'm sure it could be done |
| 01:10.40 | mozerelli | with the exception of arc-light theme for enlightenment |
| 01:13.11 | justinsm | apparently the main library, EFL, is dreadful. |
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| 01:15.54 | gnarface | well it's actually corporate funded |
| 01:16.20 | gnarface | so they have higher priorities than supporting enlightenment's use of it (somewhat ironically considering the history) |
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| 13:09.13 | aitor | mozereli: "what do you guys think of gtk3? Is it an utter mess like some people are claiming it to be?", you said |
| 13:09.54 | aitor | technically, gtk3 is better than gtk2 and it's more documented |
| 13:10.53 | msiism | aitor: interesting. what does gtk3 do better? |
| 13:11.00 | aitor | and you can customize the gtk themes using css files, it was not possible with gtk2 |
| 13:11.17 | djph | IDK, gtk-3 stuff tends to choke on lpr printing for me :( |
| 13:12.13 | aitor | imho, the most important step is in gtkmm (gtk with classes) |
| 13:12.26 | aitor | gtkmm is very powerfull |
| 13:12.27 | msiism | djph: how is this gtk3-related? |
| 13:13.00 | djph | msiism: the gtk-3 programs don't honor the settings :( |
| 13:14.02 | aitor | gtkmm3 is gtk3 oriented to objects |
| 13:14.23 | fsmithred | the main complaint I've seen is that they keep changing gtk3 and breaking backward compatibility, so developers can't keep up. |
| 13:14.43 | msiism | fsmithred: right, i was wondering, if that had now stopped. |
| 13:15.03 | fsmithred | I don't know |
| 13:16.11 | msiism | isn't gtk4 already underway? |
| 13:16.19 | aitor | fsmithred: more and more gtk3 themes compatible with gtk2 are appearing in the last months |
| 13:16.20 | fsmithred | yikes |
| 13:16.55 | aitor | msiism: murray cumming sometimes talks about gtkmm4 in the gtkmm mailing list |
| 13:18.32 | msiism | i mean, if the api breakage of gtk3 would really find an end and the product be superior to gtk2, then a transition would make sense, i guess. |
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| 13:19.17 | msiism | but then again, if the developers continue the same procedure with gtk4, that may not be the best idea |
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| 13:21.18 | aitor | i don't think so... the diference between qt3 and qt4 is much higher than the difference between qt4 and qt5 |
| 13:21.43 | msiism | ok |
| 13:22.50 | msiism | speaking of qt, i recently learned that the trinity desktop devs did with qt3 (or 4) what a lot of people would have liked for gtk2. they forked it (as TQT). |
| 13:22.58 | aitor | fsmithred: my popup menu for openbox in gtk2 (you can also build it in gtk3) is working |
| 13:23.26 | msiism | aitor: but the original ob menu is not gtk, is it? |
| 13:23.34 | aitor | nope |
| 13:24.04 | fsmithred | aitor, do you have packages somewhere? |
| 13:24.11 | aitor | but you can change your rc.xml |
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| 13:24.37 | fsmithred | yeah, I make some edits to the xml files |
| 13:24.38 | aitor | tonight i'll upload the sources and maybe the packaging |
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| 13:25.32 | aitor | this weekend i've been working on the live-sdk blend for gnuinos incluing the backports and the 4.9 kernel |
| 13:26.20 | aitor | i'll include the menu in gkt, the original menu of openbox is also available via W+Space |
| 13:26.37 | msiism | aitor: you mean, you can change your rc.xml to make it use another application for the menu? |
| 13:26.47 | aitor | yes |
| 13:26.53 | msiism | ok, right. |
| 13:27.09 | aitor | for example, Alt+F2 runs gmrun in the most of the cases |
| 13:27.34 | msiism | aitor: right, but that's not a menu, is it? |
| 13:27.42 | msiism | i'm using that too |
| 13:28.51 | msiism | aitor: so, are you using an extra application for the menu in your openbox setup? |
| 13:28.51 | aitor | one of the advantages of the gtk menu is that it'll be multilingual |
| 13:29.02 | aitor | yes |
| 13:29.07 | msiism | i get it |
| 13:30.01 | msiism | and that is called what? |
| 13:30.04 | aitor | i used some code of two different projects for that: openbox-menu and myGtkMenu |
| 13:30.12 | msiism | i see |
| 13:30.30 | aitor | we will not reinvent the wheel |
| 13:30.48 | aitor | i will give credits to the autors |
| 13:30.48 | msiism | right |
| 13:31.02 | msiism | but does it depend on openbox then? |
| 13:31.20 | aitor | it depends on lxmenu-data |
| 13:31.50 | msiism | i see. so i could also use it in i3. |
| 13:32.17 | aitor | yes, you can use it with other window managers |
| 13:32.22 | msiism | cool |
| 13:32.38 | aitor | the code is too sort, only one main.c |
| 13:32.56 | aitor | short* |
| 13:33.22 | aitor | msiism, fsmithred: need to go, see you later :) |
| 13:33.32 | msiism | ok |
| 13:33.35 | aitor | bye |
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| 20:01.15 | nepugia | say, is ascii good enough for generall use if i avoid gnome? |
| 20:03.41 | golinux | That probably depends on what general use means to you. ;) |
| 20:05.52 | fsmithred | nepugia, yeah, I think so |
| 20:06.27 | fsmithred | you may run into some issues, but there will likely be easy workarounds. |
| 20:07.19 | nepugia | i got an entire channel of irc users here to pester if i run into issues :p |
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| 20:11.38 | fsmithred | lol |
| 20:12.19 | fsmithred | people have had some problems with policykit. |
| 20:12.31 | fsmithred | but that happens in jessie, too. |
| 20:13.38 | nepugia | searches policykit |
| 20:13.41 | fsmithred | and I just noticed that my newest ascii installation didn't get policykit or consolekit. Forgot to add them and didn't even notice. I use sudo to shutdown/reboot and pmount for external drives |
| 20:13.47 | nepugia | 'PolicyKit allows fine-tuned capabilities in a desktop environment. ' eh, i kind of doubt that i have used that before |
| 20:13.53 | fsmithred | policykit-1 is the name of the package |
| 20:14.04 | fsmithred | you use a wm? |
| 20:14.29 | nepugia | mostly yes |
| 20:14.53 | fsmithred | the world won't end if your usb thumb drive doesn't pop up on your desktop when you plug it in? |
| 20:15.30 | fsmithred | you should be fine |
| 20:15.56 | nepugia | :) |
| 20:19.50 | nepugia | is there some installer images for ascii too? checked 2 mirrors and they have some for jessie |
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| 20:29.21 | nepugia | schould i install jessie and update that? |
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| 20:35.48 | fsmithred | nepugia, yeah, you can do that. Or you could do a debootstrap install of ascii. |
| 20:36.20 | fsmithred | or use one of the derivatives (miyo, vuudo or refracta have ascii isos) |
| 20:37.18 | greenjeans | no vuu-do ascii yet |
| 20:37.23 | fsmithred | boo |
| 20:37.26 | fsmithred | why not? |
| 20:37.27 | greenjeans | hehe |
| 20:37.45 | greenjeans | no ascii official release |
| 20:38.32 | greenjeans | i'd like at least a stable beta before I start trying to build |
| 20:38.32 | fsmithred | ok, there's a miyo ascii - I booted a friend's laptop with it to see if the wireless would finally work. (he still had a wheezy refracta on it and used a wireless dongle.) The built-in wireless worked with new miyo. |
| 20:39.51 | nepugia | debootstrap only ends in broken installs for me :) and i really dont have any linux to do a debootstrap from, gues ill just use the jessie update method |
| 20:39.55 | fsmithred | I did an upgrade of a refracta jessie to ascii, and I'm getting different behavior with gparted-pkexec |
| 20:40.10 | fsmithred | nothing from menu, works correctly in terminal. |
| 20:40.36 | fsmithred | last time I did that upgrade, gparted and synaptic would start from menu without password |
| 20:40.52 | fsmithred | I think it has to do with /etc/pam.d/login - I kept the old one this time. |
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| 20:41.13 | fsmithred | you could use a refracta iso to do a devuan debootstrap |
| 20:42.07 | fsmithred | broken? You do have to set a root password and install a bootloader before you try to boot into the system. Oh yeah, install a kernel, too. |
| 20:42.58 | fsmithred | nepugia, install base system jessie and upgrade to ascii is easy. |
| 20:43.17 | nepugia | broken as in /bin was empty |
| 20:43.25 | nepugia | and so was /sbin |
| 20:43.27 | fsmithred | oh, that won't work. |
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| 20:48.06 | lru | anyone here use the latest saltstack on devuan? |
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| 21:01.50 | FlibberTGibbet | \o |
| 21:04.51 | golinux | Hi FTG! |
| 21:06.06 | FlibberTGibbet | hey golinux! |
| 21:06.18 | FlibberTGibbet | I'm supposed to be looking at something, aren't I? :) |
| 21:06.36 | golinux | Yeah in a OM |
| 21:06.39 | golinux | PM |
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| 21:07.29 | FlibberTGibbet | gotcha |
| 21:11.32 | matlock | fyi my Amesome UNIX page has gotten a bunch of likes in it's first week, prominently features Devuan https://github.com/sirredbeard/Awesome-UNIX |
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| 21:16.47 | greenjeans | hey FSR, are you running an ascii install right now? |
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| 21:26.48 | greenjeans | anybody running ascii? |
| 21:30.08 | fsmithred | greenjeans, I have a new ascii install that I'm starting to use for building isos |
| 21:30.36 | greenjeans | cool, any chance you could check version number of libdbus-1-3 for me? |
| 21:32.00 | fsmithred | hang on... rebooting |
| 21:32.26 | greenjeans | trying to update Palemoon to latest but it needs a newer version of that package than what's in jessie, was wondering if ascii has a newer version |
| 21:32.50 | FlibberTGibbet | is there somewhere i can download a current ascii test iso from please? |
| 21:33.30 | fsmithred | 1.10.18-1+devuan2.3 |
| 21:34.07 | greenjeans | hey cool, where can I get a copy of that? |
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| 21:35.27 | greenjeans | hopes he can get away with using newer software in jessie for the umpteenth time... |
| 21:36.12 | fsmithred | greenjeans, it's in ascii repos |
| 21:37.17 | fsmithred | FlibberTGibbet, openbox (miyolinux): https://sourceforge.net/projects/miyolinux/files/2017-Release/ and also no-X (refracta) https://sourceforge.net/projects/refracta/files/testing/ |
| 21:37.40 | FlibberTGibbet | thanks fsmithred |
| 21:38.17 | FlibberTGibbet | will give it a go |
| 21:38.19 | fsmithred | Not sure about which miyo isos are ascii - possibly just the ones with ascii in the name |
| 21:39.14 | fsmithred | the refracta isos have debootstrap installed in case you want to start fresh. |
| 21:39.18 | FlibberTGibbet | ok |
| 21:39.20 | FlibberTGibbet | thanks |
| 21:40.27 | fsmithred | one big difference between upgrading from jessie and installing a fresh ascii is that ascii has /lib as a symlink to /usr/lib |
| 21:40.41 | fsmithred | and some others, too |
| 21:41.06 | fsmithred | like /sbin |
| 21:41.10 | fsmithred | and /bin |
| 21:43.03 | FlibberTGibbet | ah. just noticed there aren't virtualbox guest additions. reckon it'll be possible to install the old-fashioned way using the Virtualbox guest additions image and just compiling 'em? |
| 21:55.21 | greenjeans | well crap, I guess I don't know how to get to the ascii repo |
| 22:04.53 | nepugia | oh for fuck sake, why does ifupdown tell me that rfkill blocks wifi but then tries to call dhcpclient regardless |
| 22:05.07 | fsmithred | greenjeans, try packages.debian.org if you want to download the package from the web. |
| 22:06.03 | fsmithred | FlibberTGibbet, the only virtualbox for ascii is what you can get from virtualbox.org. It's not in stretch/ascii at all. |
| 22:06.04 | greenjeans | i pulled a .deb from them, it's almost the same version as yours but wondering if that package had to be "devuanized" |
| 22:06.24 | fsmithred | oh, sorry greenjeans. Don't do that. It's a devuan package. |
| 22:06.41 | fsmithred | you should be able to get it at packages or pkgmaster .devuan.org |
| 22:06.43 | greenjeans | thought so, seems like it would be being dbus |
| 22:07.02 | FlibberTGibbet | fsmithred: yes, that's what i meant. if it's not in a package it's not a big deal to compile from VBox's own guest additions source |
| 22:07.03 | greenjeans | nothing there, just lists and explanantions |
| 22:07.35 | fsmithred | if it makes any difference, the refracta isos have linux-headers and build-essential |
| 22:07.59 | FlibberTGibbet | yup, that's usually sufficient fsmithred. |
| 22:08.28 | nepugia | have an ascii now |
| 22:08.29 | nepugia | uname sais debian |
| 22:08.31 | FlibberTGibbet | i just install those and then use the default compilation script |
| 22:09.16 | fsmithred | yeah, that's what I usually do, too |
| 22:10.01 | fsmithred | nepugia, you have /etc/devuan_version? |
| 22:10.04 | nepugia | say, do i need to do something special for backlight keys to work? |
| 22:10.27 | nepugia | i have devuan_version and debian_version |
| 22:10.54 | fsmithred | ubuntu has /etc/debian_version, too |
| 22:11.37 | fsmithred | I've heard of backlight keys working, but I don't have any of those. Wish I did. |
| 22:11.50 | greenjeans | ahh found it, thanks FSR |
| 22:12.01 | nepugia | well, i think that on devuan jessie on that hardware with the backports 4.9 kernel they just worked |
| 22:12.11 | nepugia | now on ascii with 4.9 they dont work |
| 22:12.26 | nepugia | but backlight control does woek (via /sys ... yay editing files) |
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| 22:20.38 | FlibberTGibbet | nepugia: clunky but could you map a keyboard shortcut to change those /sys values up and down? |
| 22:21.10 | nepugia | that possibility exists i gues, but yeah clunky :P |
| 22:21.52 | nepugia | maybe i can find me some early boot script and set it to lower early on |
| 22:23.55 | greenjeans | okay that worked, had to install newer version of dbus first, then the libdbus library. That fixed "broken" status for newest Palemoon |
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| 22:24.21 | greenjeans | so far the newer dbus seems to work fine in jessie |
| 22:25.42 | fsmithred | which version of palemoon you have? |
| 22:27.07 | greenjeans | 27.6.1 |
| 22:27.22 | greenjeans | just installed it, I did have 27.4.2 |
| 22:27.30 | fsmithred | oh, I have 27.3 |
| 22:27.51 | greenjeans | 27.5 was a major change, so it needed upgrading in vuu-do |
| 22:28.14 | minnesotags | So. What is the method for updating from jessie to ascii? apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade? Do I need to update my sources.list first? wget a keyring? |
| 22:28.40 | nepugia | ima try installing kde5 now :3 |
| 22:30.13 | minnesotags | I'm using i3wm on my old toughbook, so I'm guessing ascii is the best version? |
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| 22:31.47 | fsmithred | minnesotags, update and upgrade and you should get the new devuan-keyring. Then change sources and update, upgrade, dist-upgrade |
| 22:35.03 | nepugia | @fsmithred why upgrade and dist-upgrade, why not only dist-upgrade? |
| 22:35.30 | fsmithred | you can do it that way. I have. just upgrade first might be safer in some situations |
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| 22:35.58 | fsmithred | hehe, if you want some fun, try upgrading debian jessie with gnome to devuan ascii |
| 22:41.51 | djph | fsmithred: why does that sound like "fun" as defined by the Dwarf Fortress guys? |
| 22:42.07 | fsmithred | sorry, I don't know them |
| 22:42.38 | fsmithred | I think Rube Goldberg might call it fun. |
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| 22:43.02 | fsmithred | you know the game, Jenga? |
| 22:49.05 | djph | http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/fun |
| 22:53.13 | fsmithred | yeah, that looks about right. |
| 22:53.36 | djph | haha |
| 22:53.41 | fsmithred | on the other hand, upgrade from debian stretch with xfce to ascii was quick and easy |
| 22:53.53 | fsmithred | like 10 minutes |
| 22:54.07 | djph | happy dev1 jessie, xfce is actually pretty nice |
| 22:55.05 | minnesotags | I have xfce and i3wm, so I imagine it should be relatively painless. |
| 22:55.41 | nepugia | what the fuck?? why does the x11 server put logfiles somewhere in my homedir? |
| 22:56.00 | fsmithred | yeah, I just did a refracta (xfce) jessie to ascii yesterday, and it was easy. |
| 22:56.19 | fsmithred | because you're the one who needs to read it when X doesn't work? |
| 22:56.44 | fsmithred | you know if you ask for help, someone will want to know what's in it. |
| 22:57.01 | fsmithred | and maybe it's because X is no longer supposed to run as root. |
| 22:57.11 | nepugia | what happend to /var/log ? |
| 22:57.17 | fsmithred | huh? |
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| 22:57.33 | fsmithred | it's still there |
| 22:57.49 | gnarface | nepugia: xorg isn't suid root by default anymore but there's a xserver-xorg-legacy package to change it back if you want to |
| 22:57.49 | fsmithred | looks like Xorg.0.log is in /var/log, too. |
| 22:58.17 | gnarface | upgraded installs will retain the old behavior |
| 22:58.17 | nepugia | well, xorg cant start as my user but can start as root .-. |
| 22:58.30 | fsmithred | no display manager? |
| 22:58.30 | gnarface | you user might have to be in the input and video groups |
| 22:58.35 | nepugia | technically upgraded, but installed x11 after that |
| 22:59.47 | nepugia | @fsmithred what is the point of running x11 as non root if you run the display manager as root? |
| 23:00.04 | fsmithred | you're asking the wrong person |
| 23:00.05 | nepugia | also no, i do not use a dm, i find them to be useless pieces of software |
| 23:00.24 | fsmithred | install xserver-xorg-legacy |
| 23:00.36 | fsmithred | and that's probably not enough... |
| 23:00.57 | nepugia | first ill try the video group thing |
| 23:01.00 | fsmithred | echo "needs_root_rights=yes" >> /etc/X11/Xwrapper.config |
| 23:01.07 | nepugia | if i can remember how to use groups :3 |
| 23:01.08 | fsmithred | yeah, good |
| 23:01.19 | fsmithred | adduser nep video |
| 23:02.45 | nepugia | adding my user to video and input and loging in again doesnt seem to let the x11 server start either |
| 23:03.47 | nepugia | i somehow doubt that the intention of this change is to get me to run kde as root user :3 |
| 23:04.13 | nepugia | it sasis xserver-xorg-legacy is already installed |
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| 23:05.53 | nepugia | with your line i can now start the X11 server |
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| 23:16.25 | greenjeans | arrgh Intel graphics on latest machine I have to convert |
| 23:16.34 | fsmithred | ? |
| 23:16.43 | fsmithred | convert what? |
| 23:16.44 | greenjeans | grub screen is wonky and I get some weird artifacts |
| 23:17.06 | greenjeans | re-doing an HP for a friend |
| 23:17.33 | greenjeans | windoze 10 had pretty much froze up completely, so I steamrolled it |
| 23:18.45 | greenjeans | FYI to windoze users everywhere, we know how they got there...and if you don't stop it you'll go blind ;) |
| 23:18.58 | greenjeans | viruses |
| 23:22.53 | fsmithred | greenjeans, have you done uefi with HP before? |
| 23:23.01 | greenjeans | nope |
| 23:23.05 | greenjeans | we hates it |
| 23:23.08 | fsmithred | or did it let you use legacy bios? |
| 23:23.29 | greenjeans | amazingly it still has a legacy option |
| 23:23.33 | greenjeans | 2016 machine |
| 23:23.34 | fsmithred | ok |
| 23:24.13 | fsmithred | if you do uefi with HP, you have to rename the bootloader to Windows-something |
| 23:24.23 | greenjeans | i'm not sure how I can roll a uefi iso on non-uefi machine, don't you have to reboot after installing grub-efi? |
| 23:24.27 | fsmithred | or Microso... |
| 23:24.35 | fsmithred | nope |
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| 23:25.01 | fsmithred | install grub-efi, install grub-pc, do not autoremove. |
| 23:25.09 | fsmithred | set force_efi=yes |
| 23:25.21 | greenjeans | doesn't it require GPT partioning? |
| 23:25.41 | AlexLikeRock | what ist the package to change to spanish devua ? |
| 23:25.53 | fsmithred | no, you don't need to use grub-efi on your host system, you just need to get it into the iso |
| 23:26.31 | greenjeans | oh okay, so re-installing grub-pc puts it into control, but leaves grub-efi available? |
| 23:26.52 | fsmithred | grub-efi-amd64-bin does not get removed |
| 23:27.08 | fsmithred | also efibootmgr which might be helpful if you boot the iso on uefi |
| 23:27.49 | greenjeans | cool, i'm gonna ask the guy if I can have the machine for a couple weeks then and try to do some efi installs |
| 23:28.00 | fsmithred | good plan |
| 23:28.09 | fsmithred | you will need gpt partitioning on that machine |
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| 23:28.22 | greenjeans | know any Intel graphics tips? |
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| 23:28.50 | fsmithred | no, but in ascii, I know that xserver-xorg-video-intel is not included in xserver-xorg-video-all |
| 23:29.01 | greenjeans | Only thing not working right now is the grub screen |
| 23:29.05 | fsmithred | maybe add nomodeset to boot line |
| 23:29.25 | greenjeans | no intel graphic support in new xorg? |
| 23:29.26 | nepugia | are you suuure? because i have that installed, and did not specifically select it |
| 23:29.32 | fsmithred | oh wait, no gpt if you use legacy boot |
| 23:29.56 | fsmithred | yeah, I'm sure. I checked. |
| 23:30.16 | nepugia | can apt tell me why it has a package somehow? |
| 23:30.19 | fsmithred | maybe because you upgraded? |
| 23:30.26 | fsmithred | aptitude why <package> |
| 23:30.30 | nepugia | i only installed all x11 stuff after apgrade |
| 23:30.32 | fsmithred | maybe apt, too |
| 23:31.25 | fsmithred | brb |
| 23:31.37 | nepugia | installed because it provides xorg-driver-video |
| 23:32.10 | fsmithred | oh, I just looked at the time. I'll be gone for an hour or two |
| 23:32.12 | nepugia | wow that scared me, i though i got a bluescreen, but its just kde's lockscreeen |
| 23:33.25 | greenjeans | lol |
| 23:34.00 | greenjeans | kde bluescreen o' death |
| 23:36.05 | nepugia | oh right debian has thing thing called build-essentials |
| 23:36.20 | nepugia | make not beeing available is wierd somehow :3 |
| 23:42.15 | fsmithred | you'll also need to install linux-headers-`uname -r` |
| 23:42.54 | fsmithred | and it's build-essential (singular) |
| 23:44.21 | nepugia | i kind of doubt i need headers to compile qt applications ;) |
| 23:44.24 | nepugia | but i do need make |
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