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| 01:10.14 | Xenguy | Very slow connection to http://auto.mirror.devuan.org ATM |
| 01:10.35 | Xenguy | 11.7 kB/s |
| 01:10.57 | Xenguy | Haven't seen this before |
| 01:15.34 | fsmithred | ping times look ok from here (near Boston) |
| 01:15.44 | Xenguy | Just running an apt update |
| 01:15.56 | fsmithred | I did, and it hung |
| 01:16.20 | Xenguy | I tried interupting, then reinvoking, but same low speed |
| 01:17.52 | fsmithred | 10KB/s |
| 01:17.59 | Xenguy | Kind of reminds me of the dialup days |
| 01:18.02 | Xenguy | Yeah, same here |
| 01:18.16 | Xenguy | What patience we had back then : -) |
| 01:19.00 | fsmithred | the internet weighed a lot less back then |
| 01:20.27 | Xenguy | It sure did |
| 01:21.05 | specing | nowadays I reserve half the battery cells for Firefox |
| 01:21.17 | Xenguy | Shame to see net neutrality slipping in the US |
| 01:21.32 | Xenguy | That can't bode well |
| 01:21.55 | specing | It would be great for all the progress to move to EU |
| 01:22.03 | fsmithred | lol, yeah |
| 01:22.15 | specing | much easier now that the UK sawed themselves off |
| 01:22.25 | specing | they were a major roadblock |
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| 01:28.32 | n4dir | it would be great to get a second Web, mainly html and css |
| 01:29.36 | n4dir | kinda was like that in i2p, iirc |
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| 01:37.07 | fsmithred | speed seems back to normal |
| 01:37.20 | fsmithred | Xenguy, ^^^ you getting the same? |
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| 01:42.08 | Xenguy | Latest was: Network is unreachable |
| 01:42.14 | Xenguy | I'll try once more |
| 01:43.01 | Xenguy | fsmithred: Yeah, speed seems to have normalized again |
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| 01:43.53 | Xenguy | tx, bbl |
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| 06:48.53 | pav5088 | Hi... I'm having a library issue with Kdenlive. Is it expected that Ascii will have library issues? ...and if not, should I report a bug somewhere? |
| 06:49.20 | pav5088 | BTW, the error I get is : kdenlive: /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libmlt++.so.3: version `MLTPP_0.9.8' not found (required by kdenlive) |
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| 07:09.55 | KatolaZ | pav5088: where do you see that error? |
| 07:10.04 | KatolaZ | when you try to install? |
| 07:10.41 | pav5088 | After I install... so the package installed fine. |
| 07:10.52 | KatolaZ | very strange |
| 07:10.54 | pav5088 | Perhaps it's a dependency issue? |
| 07:11.02 | KatolaZ | don't think so |
| 07:11.06 | KatolaZ | that package is in Debian stable |
| 07:11.13 | KatolaZ | so it won't have dep issues |
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| 07:14.02 | KatolaZ | (well, it shouldn't) |
| 07:26.29 | pav5088 | Is Ascii the stable Devuan repo? |
| 07:40.47 | KatolaZ | pav5088: ascii has not been released yet |
| 07:41.26 | KatolaZ | ascii merges Debian Stretch (which is the current Debian stable) |
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| 07:55.34 | pav5088 | I'm updating, purging and reinstalling to see if that makes a difference. |
| 07:56.15 | pav5088 | Also, will check the library |
| 07:56.42 | KatolaZ | ok thanks |
| 08:00.57 | pav5088 | Kdenlive seems to require a more recent library than what is available. |
| 08:01.11 | pav5088 | I might check stable to see if Kdenlive is broken |
| 08:04.12 | KatolaZ | pav5088: do you have backports enabled? |
| 08:04.19 | KatolaZ | or other repos, like ceres? |
| 08:04.53 | pav5088 | KatolaZ : The versions of libs I have installed seem to match Debian Stretch |
| 08:05.42 | KatolaZ | pav5088: answer my question, pls :) |
| 08:06.09 | KatolaZ | if you have other repos enabled, you might have clashing versions |
| 08:07.28 | pav5088 | KatolaZ, the only other repo I have installed is VirtualBox |
| 08:07.33 | KatolaZ | ok |
| 08:07.50 | KatolaZ | is there any bug report in debian about that? |
| 08:08.48 | pav5088 | KatolaZ, only normal and minor bugs in debian |
| 08:09.56 | KatolaZ | are they related? |
| 08:11.25 | KatolaZ | they don't seem to be related |
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| 08:18.02 | pav5088 | KatolaZ, no... not related. |
| 08:19.13 | pav5088 | It SHOULD work, and noone else seems to have the problem... I've probably just done something stupid. |
| 08:23.12 | KatolaZ | pav5088: try to purge the package, apt-get clean, and then reinstall? |
| 08:23.18 | KatolaZ | which mirror are you using? |
| 08:24.00 | pav5088 | KatolaZ, packages.devuan.org |
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| 08:35.41 | golinux | pav5088: Try auto.mirror.devuan.org or pkgmaster.devuan.org |
| 08:36.14 | KatolaZ | auto.mirror.devuan.org == packages.devuan.org |
| 08:36.17 | KatolaZ | atm |
| 08:36.34 | KatolaZ | but the problem should not be there pav5088 |
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| 08:56.16 | golinux | Katolaz . . . I remember a mention of some differences between the three. |
| 08:56.43 | golinux | And also reports of switching repos solving the problem. |
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| 09:43.58 | Vajb | just to let you know, minidlna solved my issues. Had some issues with it also, but fixed by swithing user=minidlna to user=user |
| 09:44.08 | Vajb | so thx for the hint |
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| 10:13.09 | fsmithred | pav5088, what version of kdenlive do you have? The version of libmlt++ it's asking for is slightly newer than what's in jessie (0.9.2-2) and a lot behind what's in ascii (6.4.1-4) |
| 10:13.27 | fsmithred | and usually, if a .so file is missing, you need the -dev package. |
| 10:16.23 | pav5088 | fsmithred KatolaZ something must have been very wrong with my install (which was upgraded from Debian... so there's that). Did a mass purge of packages and reinstalled... this seemed to fix things. Probably a confused dependency somewhere, though it's weird that aptitude didn't complain. |
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| 10:17.08 | fsmithred | you went from debian stretch? |
| 10:17.11 | KatolaZ | pav5088: fine |
| 10:17.14 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 10:17.27 | fsmithred | or from jessie? |
| 10:18.17 | pav5088 | I believe it was from stretch... though it could have been jessie. This was some time ago, so if it was stretch it would have been "testing". |
| 10:18.52 | fsmithred | oh, when versions were changing. |
| 10:19.45 | pav5088 | nods... Can't say for sure, but if stretch in testing mode could have confused things, then perhaps it was that. |
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| 10:20.21 | fsmithred | is there an 'aptitude reinstall everything'? |
| 10:22.04 | pav5088 | Would be a nice "Hail Mary" to try in an emergency. |
| 10:22.57 | fsmithred | there is dpkg --get-selections and dpkg --set-selections, but you have to save the first one in a file in advance of needing it. |
| 10:25.44 | KatolaZ | it can be achieved with a pin, I guess |
| 10:26.24 | KatolaZ | and a successive "apt-get dist-upgrade" |
| 10:26.25 | fsmithred | what would you pin? |
| 10:26.32 | fsmithred | oh |
| 10:26.40 | KatolaZ | the suite you would like |
| 10:26.46 | KatolaZ | and the rest to -10 |
| 10:26.50 | fsmithred | yeah |
| 10:27.13 | KatolaZ | pin the suite to 1001 |
| 10:27.19 | fsmithred | where can I find a debianized source for firefox57? |
| 10:27.20 | KatolaZ | the rest to -10 |
| 10:27.35 | pav5088 | I'm actually having crashes also ie. complete lockups, no keyboard (ie. numlock and capslock LEDs don't respond). That kind of thing is usually caused by hardware issues usually though I suppose. |
| 10:28.13 | KatolaZ | I guess that is the case pav5088 |
| 10:28.16 | pav5088 | But it's when I quit out of a particular game (Spring 1944), so it's not random. |
| 10:28.23 | KatolaZ | or might be, at least |
| 10:29.05 | pav5088 | Well, not ENTIRELY random... three times out of four there is no crash. |
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| 10:32.39 | pav5088 | Never tried to debug an issue that causes hard lockups, and seems somewhat related to software. Would be nice if I had another machine I could completely substitute to see if the problem will travel with the software to a completely different machine. |
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| 10:36.07 | detha | pav5088: and unless you have an /exactly/ same machine (same CPU, same chipset, same NICs, same memory) it still doesn't prove anything; I have seen kernel lock-ups that happen only on machines with a particular chipset, when a particular brand USB device is active |
| 10:37.18 | pav5088 | detha : True enough... I guess I can't really troubleshoot any further. |
| 10:39.25 | detha | serial console, or kernel debugger via serial port, is generally as far as one can get with software. (after that there are ICEs and logic analyzers, but that is waaaay above my budget) |
| 10:39.44 | pav5088 | detha : If I had another box that was completely different that might help (if the problem travelled with the software, and therefore could be identified as a software issue). |
| 10:40.42 | detha | true, if the problem persisted it would definitely make it a software problem |
| 10:41.26 | cyteen | fsmithred: 57.0-1 in ceres |
| 10:42.32 | fsmithred | yeah, I found the source tarball on packages.debian.org |
| 10:42.33 | pav5088 | Never tried troubleshooting via serial port. I guess these days you'd need an addon card (unless a USB/RJ45 dongle would serve). |
| 10:42.42 | fsmithred | apt-get source didn't do it. |
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| 11:20.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | I see "hw lockups" on other distros/kernels that really aren't. X11 seems notorious for its ability to hog the machine completely, if you can't switch to a reniced -15 root console with very first keypress. Once there are input events buffering up in X11 queue and not getting processed since X11 "child processes" hog the whole system, you're short on luck |
| 11:22.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | when the input event queue fills up faster than it gets processed, and there's a backlog of unprocessed events then not even a ctrl+alt+F1 to switch to console will get processed anymore |
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| 11:30.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | magic sysreq keys to the rescue ;-) |
| 11:31.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | oh yeah, and USB, a real PITA |
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| 13:53.11 | mozerelli | hello |
| 13:53.32 | mozerelli | is there a way i can try ascii as live usb? |
| 13:53.53 | mozerelli | my wlan doesn |
| 13:54.08 | mozerelli | my wlan doesn't work under kernel version 3+ |
| 13:54.37 | mozerelli | that's why i want to try ascii but there's no live image |
| 13:58.20 | buZz | there isnt any atm, no |
| 13:58.27 | buZz | you could make one |
| 14:01.29 | mozerelli | one more question. What are the differences between a dist upgrade to ascii now and the upcoming official ascii image? |
| 14:02.44 | mozerelli | IIRC ascii is about to be released but are there unstable packages now in ascii? |
| 14:03.01 | buZz | not that i've found |
| 14:03.21 | mozerelli | say I do a dist upgrade to ascii now |
| 14:03.39 | mozerelli | what do I have to do when ascii officially gets released? |
| 14:03.46 | fsmithred | mozerelli, there are no-X refracta-ascii isos, and there are miyolinux and vuudo isos with ascii (and openbox) |
| 14:03.48 | mozerelli | "sudo apt-get upgrade"? |
| 14:04.37 | fsmithred | yes, if you upgrade now and do it periodically, you will be up-to-date when the isos are released. |
| 14:05.08 | mozerelli | Ok thank you very much |
| 14:05.45 | fsmithred | ascii is based on stretch, so most of the packages are stable. There's still some work to be done on packages that require systemd, and some other devuan-specific stuff (themes, eudev) |
| 14:06.22 | mozerelli | hmm good to know |
| 14:06.41 | mozerelli | what is the expected release date? |
| 14:06.50 | fsmithred | do you use a full desktop environment or just a window manager? |
| 14:06.56 | mozerelli | full DE |
| 14:07.02 | fsmithred | something will be out before end of year |
| 14:07.32 | mozerelli | i'm using mate desktop |
| 14:07.47 | fsmithred | in devuan jessie? |
| 14:08.36 | DusXMT | (mate works well enough in jessie, running it now atm, the only problem is the power manager, doesn't detect the power charger being plugged and unplugged) |
| 14:08.47 | mozerelli | on my desktop yes. But I would want to use it on my laptop too. Unfortunately, Intel 8260 Wifi is only supported under kenel 4+ |
| 14:08.58 | DusXMT | mozerelli: You can use a backported kernel |
| 14:09.02 | DusXMT | does that |
| 14:09.16 | fsmithred | yes, I made a devuan-live iso with backports kernel |
| 14:09.45 | mozerelli | So, that is basically jessie with a newer kernel right? |
| 14:10.20 | fsmithred | yes. live iso is here: http://distro.ibiblio.org/refracta/files/experimental/ |
| 14:10.32 | mozerelli | Thank you. I'll give it a try |
| 14:10.36 | fsmithred | there's also an ascii iso there with eudev and openrc, but I don't recommend it. |
| 14:11.22 | fsmithred | I should take it down - it has an older build of eudev which will mess you up on upgrade because of versioning. |
| 14:12.20 | fsmithred | mozerelli, does laptop use uefi or legacy bios? |
| 14:12.43 | mozerelli | uefi |
| 14:13.00 | mozerelli | I assume this is for legacy bios? |
| 14:13.01 | fsmithred | ok, I'm pretty sure grub-efi-amd64 is installed. |
| 14:13.08 | mozerelli | Oh ok |
| 14:13.11 | fsmithred | if not, the debs are in / |
| 14:14.27 | mozerelli | Sorry for asking these simple questions but how does a dist upgrade work with a backported kernel? |
| 14:14.43 | fsmithred | it'll get replaced with the newer kernel |
| 14:14.50 | fsmithred | oh |
| 14:15.07 | fsmithred | only if you have linux-image-amd64 (or whatever arch) installed |
| 14:15.20 | fsmithred | that's a metapackage that will always pull the newest kernel available |
| 14:15.36 | fsmithred | if no, you can install the newer kernel after upgrade |
| 14:15.43 | mozerelli | Hmm i thought all of the packages got replaced except the kernel |
| 14:15.54 | fsmithred | depends on if you have that metapackage or not |
| 14:16.22 | fsmithred | you still have to reboot to run the new kernel. |
| 14:19.00 | DusXMT | mozerelli: Even with the metapackage, the dist-upgrade won't replace your old kernel per-se, it'll just be ready for `apt-get autoremove' to remove it, unless you marked the specific kernel version as manually installed |
| 14:19.22 | DusXMT | *it'll just install the new one besides the old one, and be ready for |
| 14:19.38 | fsmithred | kernel won't be autoremoved - you have to tell it to go away |
| 14:19.55 | DusXMT | Oh, so they're marked as manually installed by default? |
| 14:20.11 | fsmithred | yeah, there's a list of packages apt won't autoremove. |
| 14:20.46 | fsmithred | Somebody probably autoremoved one and got left with a new, unworking kernel. Only takes one time. |
| 14:21.22 | DusXMT | Yeah, I can fully imagine that |
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| 15:06.05 | mozerelli | fsmithred: your live iso doesn't work for me |
| 15:07.05 | mozerelli | at startup it says mounting /dev/sdb1 on /live/medium failed |
| 15:07.26 | fsmithred | you put it on usb? |
| 15:07.57 | mozerelli | yes |
| 15:08.04 | mozerelli | using rufus with UEFI and GPT |
| 15:08.17 | mozerelli | I am on a windows machine now |
| 15:08.34 | fsmithred | gpt on the usb? |
| 15:08.55 | mozerelli | yes |
| 15:09.04 | fsmithred | someone else had trouble with rufus |
| 15:09.14 | fsmithred | use the windows equivalent of dd |
| 15:09.26 | fsmithred | it's iso hybrid, so it will act like a CD |
| 15:09.33 | fsmithred | rawrite? Does that still exist? |
| 15:10.20 | mozerelli | dunno |
| 15:10.38 | DusXMT | http://www.netbsd.org/~martin/rawrite32/ |
| 15:10.57 | DusXMT | The BSD folk, to save the day again :) |
| 15:17.08 | fsmithred | win32 disk imager looks like it will do it, too. Based on wikipedia description. https://sourceforge.net/projects/win32diskimager/ |
| 15:18.03 | mozerelli | already flashed the usb with rawrite32 |
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| 15:18.15 | fsmithred | cool! |
| 15:18.20 | mozerelli | will tell you if it worked |
| 15:18.32 | fsmithred | rawrite was my very first experience with linux - had to make boot floppies |
| 15:18.39 | mozerelli | :) |
| 15:18.48 | mozerelli | i'll be right back |
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| 15:23.38 | mozerelli_ | fsmithred: it booted nicely into devuan |
| 15:23.55 | mozerelli_ | checked with uname -r and it is indeed the newer kernel |
| 15:23.58 | fsmithred | cpp; |
| 15:24.05 | fsmithred | oops - cool |
| 15:24.55 | mozerelli_ | however it doesn't seem to have a DE by default |
| 15:25.05 | mozerelli_ | but that won't be a problem |
| 15:25.27 | fsmithred | should be xfce |
| 15:25.34 | fsmithred | you didn't get there? |
| 15:25.38 | mozerelli_ | no |
| 15:25.56 | mozerelli_ | it did boot into the shell |
| 15:26.01 | fsmithred | you got the devuan-desktop-live iso, not the ascii-oblx, right? |
| 15:26.39 | mozerelli_ | yes this one -> devuan_jessie_amd64_bpo_desktop-live-20170730_1501.iso |
| 15:26.50 | fsmithred | yes. should auto-login to xfce |
| 15:27.02 | fsmithred | did it try that and fail? |
| 15:27.13 | fsmithred | look at /var/log/Xorg.0.log |
| 15:29.02 | mozerelli_ | ok. let me switch to the desktop for IRC as it isn't really convient switching back and forth on my laptop |
| 15:29.13 | mozerelli_ | I'll check that out |
| 15:31.48 | mozerelli_ | convenient* |
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| 15:34.57 | mozerelli | fsmithred: I just checked the Xorg.0.log |
| 15:35.14 | mozerelli | It says (EE) no screens found |
| 15:35.25 | mozerelli | Fatal server error |
| 15:35.28 | fsmithred | what video hardware do you have? |
| 15:35.33 | mozerelli | Intel HD |
| 15:35.43 | mozerelli | Just the integrated graphics |
| 15:36.30 | fsmithred | maybe try adding 'nomodeset' to the boot command |
| 15:37.06 | mozerelli | ok let me try |
| 15:38.26 | mozerelli | it worked |
| 15:38.35 | fsmithred | good |
| 15:38.48 | mozerelli | there's one thing left and that |
| 15:38.55 | mozerelli | s the wlan |
| 15:39.08 | fsmithred | drivers are installed |
| 15:39.15 | mozerelli | it should work under 4.1+ but i can't see any wlan device |
| 15:39.59 | fsmithred | check if module is loaded (if you know what it's called) |
| 15:40.17 | mozerelli | i checked using lspci -v |
| 15:40.28 | fsmithred | what's lspci say for wireless hardware? |
| 15:40.29 | mozerelli | there doesn't seem to be a kernel module in use |
| 15:40.37 | *** part/#devuan fsmithred (~fsmithred@68-184-46-18.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com) |
| 15:40.53 | mozerelli | normally it would say "kernel in use:" |
| 15:41.03 | mozerelli | but there isn't any |
| 15:43.35 | DusXMT | mozerelli: check dmesg, perhaps it's a firmware issue |
| 15:45.44 | mozerelli | it seems it can't load the firmware properly |
| 15:45.56 | mozerelli | iwlwifi |
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| 15:48.27 | mozerelli | tried modrpobe -r and then modprobe again but didn't work |
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| 15:50.06 | DusXMT | mozerelli: You need to get the appropriate firmware installed; download the appropriate deb (from non-free most likely), put it ionto a second USB drive, plop it in and install |
| 15:50.20 | DusXMT | Or pull an ethernet cable to the laptop, that's the simplest solution imho |
| 15:50.35 | DusXMT | *plug |
| 15:51.11 | DusXMT | (actually, pull works as well) |
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| 15:51.32 | fsmithred | sorry, I didn't notice that I'd left the channel |
| 15:51.32 | mozerelli | does devuan have a non free repo |
| 15:51.42 | fsmithred | yes, contrib and non-free |
| 15:51.55 | mozerelli | ok will try that |
| 15:52.03 | fsmithred | devuan merges the debian repos with our own, and filters out the packages we fixed |
| 15:52.27 | fsmithred | "replaces the debian packages with the ones we fixed" |
| 15:52.38 | mozerelli | that's nice |
| 15:52.39 | fsmithred | which are a few in comparison to the whole repo |
| 16:02.39 | mozerelli | ok, the backports non-free repo contains the newer firmware |
| 16:03.03 | mozerelli | it installed and iwconfig sees the wlan device now |
| 16:03.48 | fsmithred | ah, ok. I thought I installed the new wireless firmware, too. |
| 16:04.10 | fsmithred | which firmware package did you use? There was one from intel I didn't include. |
| 16:04.30 | mozerelli | i just ran sudo apt-get upgrade and saw iwlwifi there |
| 16:04.42 | mozerelli | must be a newer version that has support for Intel 8260 |
| 16:04.44 | fsmithred | oh, maybe it just needed a newer version. |
| 16:04.51 | fsmithred | iso was made in july |
| 16:04.59 | mozerelli | ahh, that clarifies it |
| 16:05.42 | mozerelli | now the last step is making it visible in wicd |
| 16:07.22 | fsmithred | wlan0 is not default? |
| 16:09.04 | mozerelli | it doesn't see wlan0 |
| 16:09.18 | fsmithred | oh, maybe new interface names? |
| 16:09.28 | fsmithred | ip a |
| 16:09.44 | mozerelli | it's called wlan0 but wicd doesn't see it for some weird reason |
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| 16:12.03 | fsmithred | you check preferences in wicd? |
| 16:12.31 | fsmithred | the little triangle, top right. gives you a drop-down menu |
| 16:14.08 | mozerelli | aahh I think the network card is soft blocked |
| 16:14.25 | mozerelli | i need it to set the state to UP I guess |
| 16:14.36 | mozerelli | have to rfkill it first |
| 16:14.55 | mozerelli | as the kernel is trying to switch it off |
| 16:15.03 | fsmithred | oh |
| 16:16.25 | mozerelli | yes, that was the problem |
| 16:16.53 | mozerelli | it works now. Pheww what a pain just to make wlan work under live-desktop :) |
| 16:17.39 | fsmithred | sorry. I'll make sure that wlan0 is default in future builds. |
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| 16:18.15 | mozerelli | No need to be sorry. Actually I think it WAS the default but i am not sure. |
| 16:18.47 | mozerelli | The wifi device was signaled to switch off. I think that was the problem |
| 16:18.49 | fsmithred | will check if/when the time comes |
| 16:19.13 | fsmithred | probably won't need to update the backports iso - ascii will be available |
| 16:19.51 | mozerelli | just a matter of weeks I guess |
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| 16:24.14 | mozerelli | anyway thank you for helping me |
| 16:24.38 | mozerelli | really appreciate it |
| 16:24.39 | fsmithred | yw |
| 16:24.59 | fsmithred | yeah, weeks. I'm itching to make ascii live isos |
| 16:25.12 | fsmithred | actually have made a few, and they work |
| 16:27.24 | mozerelli | any reason for making your own isos except for the older kernel? |
| 16:28.29 | fsmithred | well, I'm the maintainer for devuan-live, so I kinda have to make isos. |
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| 16:30.29 | mozerelli | oh didn't know that :)) |
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| 16:47.45 | Nisse_ | Hi, I'm trying Refracta and get fsck exited with status 8 on a fresh install. I suspect it has to do with encrypted home and fstab... Anyone got some hints? |
| 16:56.32 | fsmithred | Nisse_, what volume is it checking? |
| 16:56.55 | fsmithred | and what does status 8 mean? Maybe not a filesystem? |
| 16:57.50 | Nisse_ | the home volume, i'm now trying changing /dev/sda4 to /dev/mapper/home_fs |
| 16:59.12 | fsmithred | changing it where? |
| 16:59.37 | Nisse_ | Now it works, was jumping the gun, sorry :p |
| 16:59.45 | fsmithred | np |
| 17:00.56 | fsmithred | if you plan on making a snapshot of your installation, check the readme regarding encryption |
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| 17:03.39 | Nisse_ | no, will be fixed installation, but thanks |
| 17:04.29 | fsmithred | did the installer create an incorrect fstab? |
| 17:05.56 | Nisse_ | I think it created a "standard" /dev/sdax instead of /dev/mapper/home_fs |
| 17:06.23 | fsmithred | shit. Thanks. What options did you use? |
| 17:06.35 | fsmithred | (note: if it did something wrong, I'm the one who has to fix it.) |
| 17:07.59 | Nisse_ | I used the gui so not sure if I can see all options used, but I just chose encrypted home and during format the yes no questions, just yes on everything |
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| 17:08.53 | fsmithred | ok, thanks. That helps. |
| 17:09.10 | Nisse_ | I was just happy to not have to use cryptsetup this and that which I failed on a gentoo installation in the past :) |
| 17:09.13 | fsmithred | I'll be updating the gui installer soon, so I will get to test it. |
| 17:09.24 | fsmithred | lol |
| 17:10.01 | fsmithred | I learned shell scripting so I wouldn't have to memorize long commands. |
| 17:10.10 | Nisse_ | I think I have another issue. I chose a new name for regular user but I can't login. It didn't create a new home directory but I can see a default "user" directory |
| 17:10.24 | fsmithred | oh, something definitely went wrong |
| 17:10.25 | Nisse_ | It's listed in /etc/groups |
| 17:12.29 | fsmithred | you could check the error log, but there's probably nothing of interest unless you ran it in debug mode. |
| 17:12.42 | fsmithred | which will be the default in the next version. |
| 17:16.40 | fsmithred | Nisse_, please look in /var/log/refractainstaller_error.log. Maybe usermod failed. |
| 17:16.58 | fsmithred | brb |
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| 17:19.09 | Nisse_ | Nothing about useradd or usermod there. I created a home directory manually and now the user can login without problems so doesn't seem to be anything more than that at least |
| 17:20.58 | Nisse_ | I got some Glib-critical about g_source_remove assertion tag > 0 though which is beyond me. Apart from that just localgeneration and mke2fs without errors |
| 17:24.42 | gnarface | Nisse_: use adduser/addgroup |
| 17:24.59 | gnarface | afaik useradd/usermod are just there for legacy reasons. they skip a lot of the expected initial setup |
| 17:25.13 | gnarface | (just fyi) |
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| 17:29.50 | Nisse_ | I don't know what the original command was as I didn't run with debug. Still, quite smooth installation for a distro with a smaller userbase. I tried artix first and just gave up... |
| 17:33.04 | fsmithred | gnarface, usermod is used to change the user's name, group and home |
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| 18:01.39 | Nisse_ | If a package that can be upgraded has a +deb8 or similar but same version otherwise. What does this generally mean? |
| 18:03.05 | fsmithred | eighth revision |
| 18:03.46 | Nisse_ | "This change is not coming from a source that supports changelogs" made me curious |
| 18:03.55 | fsmithred | no, I'm wrong |
| 18:04.02 | fsmithred | +deb8 means jessie |
| 18:04.30 | fsmithred | +deb8.1 would be the next revision |
| 18:04.45 | fsmithred | never saw that message |
| 18:04.58 | fsmithred | what package? |
| 18:05.27 | Nisse_ | I just picked one on random, libxfont1 and then get changelog |
| 18:05.31 | Nisse_ | in synaptics |
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| 18:07.09 | mozerelli | is it possible to save session on desktop-live |
| 18:07.19 | Nisse_ | Not really an issue, just wondering how the versioning works with those distrospecific suffixes |
| 18:07.26 | gnarface | Nisse_: strange, it has a changelog here on ceres... |
| 18:07.28 | mozerelli | and keeping all the packages that just have been installed |
| 18:08.11 | gnarface | Nisse_: what do you see in /usr/share/doc/libxfont1/ if you install it? |
| 18:09.27 | gnarface | Nisse_: i think for example with libxfont1, 1:1.5.2-4 < libxfont1, upstream version 1.5.2, - repackaged 4 times |
| 18:10.26 | gnarface | mozerelli: there's something called persistence you can enable. it's kinda an ugly hack but it's not hard to do |
| 18:11.25 | gnarface | mozerelli: there's also something called refracta installer you can use to just install it to a storage device as-is |
| 18:12.01 | mozerelli | I just want to keep the image on the storage device |
| 18:12.08 | mozerelli | I'll look into persistence |
| 18:12.17 | fsmithred | mozerelli, I'm not sure what you're trying to do. |
| 18:12.25 | fsmithred | Did you install stuff in the live session? |
| 18:12.29 | mozerelli | yes |
| 18:12.41 | mozerelli | i want to keep that stuff on the usb |
| 18:12.54 | fsmithred | you have to make the usb a different way for that to work |
| 18:13.02 | fsmithred | do you have another usb stick you can use? |
| 18:13.06 | mozerelli | yes |
| 18:13.08 | fsmithred | cool |
| 18:13.32 | fsmithred | install refracta2usb in the live session, then you can make a new live-usb from that session |
| 18:13.49 | mozerelli | alright. thank you |
| 18:13.51 | fsmithred | oh, I don't think that will preserve your changes, though |
| 18:13.53 | gnarface | that's probably easier than the old persistence hack |
| 18:14.17 | gnarface | the persistence hack involves adding partitions |
| 18:14.30 | fsmithred | it just runs the commands for you to make the persistent volume, and it creates the boot menu entry, so yeah, it's easier |
| 18:14.31 | Nisse_ | gnarface well I upgraded and no change on local changelog |
| 18:14.47 | fsmithred | you still have to make a partition |
| 18:15.07 | mozerelli | as long as i will be able to write changes to the usb, i'll be ok |
| 18:15.33 | mozerelli | that's after I run refracta2usb if i'm right |
| 18:15.40 | fsmithred | yeah, anything extra you installed in this live session will need to be reinstalled when you boot the other stick with persistence |
| 18:16.05 | mozerelli | but it will be permanent right |
| 18:16.06 | mozerelli | ? |
| 18:16.21 | mozerelli | that's what persistence means I think |
| 18:16.22 | fsmithred | yeah. There are a few separate procedures to do. And yes, the changes will be kept. |
| 18:16.35 | gnarface | Nisse_: well, if they made a change to the package itself, not what was in it, that would be normal |
| 18:16.36 | mozerelli | ok I'll try that out |
| 18:16.39 | gnarface | Nisse_: (i think) |
| 18:16.51 | fsmithred | if you want to get fancy, you can make the second partition and then use a loopback file for persistence. |
| 18:17.24 | fsmithred | then you can have multiple persistent volumes, either for multiple live isos or different ones for the same live system. |
| 18:17.56 | gnarface | Nisse_: as indication, you'd notice the upstream version component (the part before the "-") would not change but the part after it would iterate |
| 18:18.42 | fsmithred | mozerelli, do you need a link for refracta2usb? |
| 18:18.54 | gnarface | mozerelli: just a word of caution - i did kill a USB key doing this once. the amount of wear caused during normal use will be massively increased |
| 18:19.33 | gnarface | mozerelli: don't do it with your last USB key, or one that has sentimental value |
| 18:20.10 | fsmithred | I've killed enough of them that I no longer get sentimental |
| 18:20.33 | fsmithred | well, except for the kingston - it's a really nice blue color. |
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| 18:20.49 | fsmithred | and boots with grub |
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| 18:51.13 | mozerelli | fsmithred: yes, that would be great |
| 18:51.25 | mozerelli | gnarface: thanks, i'll keep that in mind |
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| 19:13.17 | mozerelli | fsmithred: is refracta2usb the one that's on github? |
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| 19:30.10 | mozerelli | never mind I found it on sourceforge and installed it manually with dpkg |
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| 19:52.17 | fsmithred | sorry, I was afk. |
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| 20:16.39 | gnarface | updated my jessie streaming box to ascii |
| 20:16.44 | gnarface | everything went without a hitch |
| 20:16.51 | gnarface | my only complaint is that i hate the new mouse cursor |
| 20:17.44 | gnarface | would have preferred no change |
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| 20:23.01 | fsmithred | gnarface, is that in xfce? |
| 20:23.10 | gnarface | blackbox |
| 20:24.00 | fsmithred | is there a mouse them you can change, or just built in? |
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| 20:38.55 | fsmithred | them/theme |
| 20:45.34 | golinux | Use the Mate cursor theme. I have the classic gnome posted here: |
| 20:46.10 | golinux | gnarface: ^^^ I also have the classic gnome theme posted somewhere |
| 20:55.01 | golinux | gnarface: Here you go: http://www.saynotogmos.org/ss/gnome.tar.gz |
| 20:55.11 | gnarface | thanks |
| 20:55.55 | golinux | I don't like the adwaita cursor either |
| 20:56.41 | golinux | Making some progress with inkscape. Thanks again for your help. |
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| 21:33.00 | gnarface | no problem golinux |
| 21:33.43 | gnarface | it's somewhat unpolished still, but they version it appropriately and it's a really nice concept for a vector drawing tool (the whole SVG native thing) |
| 21:34.11 | gnarface | i like to see people using open standards for what they're for |
| 21:34.53 | gnarface | i think the proprietary software industry as a whole, really undervalues the true potential of SVG |
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| 22:48.49 | mozerelli | which repo does have the regular firefox |
| 22:48.50 | mozerelli | ? |
| 22:51.10 | nepugia | the normal repo? |
| 22:52.29 | gnarface | there should be a firefox and firefox-esr package both... i think |
| 22:52.35 | mozerelli | i am not talking about firefox |
| 22:52.38 | mozerelli | esr |
| 22:52.47 | mozerelli | just the regular firefox |
| 22:53.04 | mozerelli | i can't find the normal firefox package |
| 22:53.05 | mozerelli | somehow |
| 22:54.20 | fsmithred | only plain firefox I see is 57 in sid/ceres |
| 22:54.22 | nepugia | firefox esr is the "regular" firefox |
| 22:54.31 | fsmithred | yeah, that. |
| 22:56.31 | fsmithred | 52.5.0esr-1~deb8u1 in jessie-security |
| 22:57.45 | fsmithred | if you want the latest, you can download from mozilla and unpack it in your home |
| 22:58.02 | mozerelli | I just added ceres repo |
| 22:58.17 | mozerelli | from there I can install firefox 57 |
| 22:58.29 | fsmithred | yeah, but be very careful |
| 22:58.35 | mozerelli | why? |
| 22:58.44 | fsmithred | you don't want to pull in anything else from ceres |
| 22:59.39 | fsmithred | holy shit! You don't want to do that. |
| 22:59.53 | mozerelli | it already started installing libc6 |
| 22:59.53 | KatolaZ | mozerelli: pin ceres down to 100 |
| 22:59.59 | fsmithred | I just did a simulated install of it, and it wants to upgrade way too much |
| 23:00.01 | Xenguy | hehe |
| 23:00.06 | Xenguy | makes popcorn... |
| 23:00.08 | mozerelli | HAHA |
| 23:00.10 | KatolaZ | mozerelli: you are up for a big mess-up... |
| 23:00.21 | mozerelli | pin down to 100. what does that mean |
| 23:00.22 | fsmithred | no, sorry, it wants to remove 102 packages |
| 23:00.44 | fsmithred | safer if you just download the tarball from mozilla |
| 23:00.51 | mozerelli | hmm |
| 23:01.07 | fsmithred | and it should work. I had a beta of 58 running on jessie that way |
| 23:01.48 | mozerelli | thanks |
| 23:02.15 | fsmithred | if you have addons from an earlier version, it will trash them |
| 23:02.59 | mozerelli | no I don't use addons besides ublock origin |
| 23:03.31 | mozerelli | there is a newer version anyway |
| 23:04.15 | mozerelli | But what did KatolaZ mean with pinning the repo down to 100? |
| 23:04.32 | fsmithred | you can pin package priorities |
| 23:04.36 | KatolaZ | mozerelli: putting the ceres repo to a lower priority |
| 23:04.40 | KatolaZ | than the other ones |
| 23:04.42 | fsmithred | so that they don't get installed first |
| 23:04.42 | mozerelli | hmm. |
| 23:04.52 | fsmithred | higher priority gets preference |
| 23:05.25 | mozerelli | Say I want to install a package which is only in ceres. This is the recommended aproach? |
| 23:05.41 | KatolaZ | the recommended approach is to not mix releases |
| 23:06.02 | KatolaZ | if you mix repos of different releases/distros you are normally on your own |
| 23:06.18 | KatolaZ | and you are supposed to be able to get out of trouble when you run into them |
| 23:06.29 | KatolaZ | (and you will eventually run into problem by doing that) |
| 23:06.33 | KatolaZ | ~problems |
| 23:06.43 | fsmithred | nods |
| 23:06.52 | mozerelli | the last time I wanted a package which was only available in debian testing |
| 23:07.00 | mozerelli | it messed my system up for sure |
| 23:07.29 | KatolaZ | mozerelli: if you want always the latest package available in xxxx, then maybe De**an stable is not your cookie |
| 23:07.51 | mozerelli | I don't want always the latest package available |
| 23:07.58 | mozerelli | I want a stable system |
| 23:08.07 | mozerelli | but sometimes I want to try out something new |
| 23:08.18 | KatolaZ | then use a VM, maybe |
| 23:08.30 | KatolaZ | "trying something new" is not for free |
| 23:08.40 | KatolaZ | since compiled packages have dependencies |
| 23:08.54 | KatolaZ | unless you are up for compiling the stuff you want to try out |
| 23:09.18 | mozerelli | And I am developing application in java. I don't think de***an stable always maintains the latest IDE, say IntelliJ. |
| 23:09.26 | mozerelli | applications* |
| 23:09.34 | mozerelli | for example |
| 23:10.14 | mozerelli | I don't even know if de***an stable maintains the latest Java RE and JDK |
| 23:10.33 | KatolaZ | I guess intelliJ is not free software, right? |
| 23:10.49 | mozerelli | It's not. |
| 23:11.04 | mozerelli | But I can't just live off of free software |
| 23:11.15 | nepugia | mozerelli: what you want sounds more like bsd and less like linux to me |
| 23:11.16 | mozerelli | Unfortunately I have to use non-free software to make a living |
| 23:11.43 | mozerelli | nepugia: how so? |
| 23:11.54 | KatolaZ | mozerelli: I am just saying that you can't find intelliJ in any linux distro |
| 23:11.58 | KatolaZ | by default, at least |
| 23:12.30 | mozerelli | Well, I have used Arch before. And in that distro everything was bleeding edge. |
| 23:12.38 | mozerelli | Including IntelliJ |
| 23:12.55 | mozerelli | But for me the whole system was broken |
| 23:13.18 | mozerelli | I just want a stable linux system. With newer dev tools if possible |
| 23:13.29 | mozerelli | Am I demanding too much? |
| 23:13.36 | KatolaZ | nope |
| 23:13.52 | KatolaZ | I am just saying that maybe de**an stable is not what you are looking for then :) |
| 23:14.17 | mozerelli | But then I might have a not-so reliable system :) |
| 23:14.21 | KatolaZ | unless you are willing to compile or otherwise install the newer tools |
| 23:14.28 | KatolaZ | mozerelli: you can't have everything |
| 23:14.29 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 23:14.36 | mozerelli | I don't want to have the same experience with Arch |
| 23:14.48 | KatolaZ | uh? |
| 23:14.51 | mozerelli | It's so easy to mess everything up in that distro |
| 23:14.54 | nepugia | > I just want a stable linux system. With newer dev tools if possible |
| 23:14.54 | nepugia | the stable system with newer tools i have never soon on linux, only on bsd |
| 23:15.19 | KatolaZ | and neither in BSD, maybe |
| 23:15.32 | KatolaZ | since bleeding edge ports have their issues as well |
| 23:15.39 | KatolaZ | and, BTW, you have to compile them |
| 23:15.40 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 23:16.12 | nepugia | you meen ports? well no actually you do not have to :) |
| 23:16.19 | mozerelli | Which OpenJDK version does jessie have right now. Let me check |
| 23:16.28 | nepugia | 8 |
| 23:16.38 | mozerelli | Hmm.. It's not so bad then |
| 23:16.39 | nepugia | pretty aure its 8 |
| 23:17.05 | nepugia | (though might be only in backports not sure) |
| 23:17.26 | mozerelli | and openjdk 9 in ascii? |
| 23:17.30 | mozerelli | I hope so |
| 23:17.35 | KatolaZ | 8 is in backports |
| 23:17.43 | KatolaZ | 8 in in jessie-backports |
| 23:18.06 | KatolaZ | and 9 is in ascii-backports |
| 23:18.28 | mozerelli | are those backports stable? |
| 23:18.42 | nepugia | yes |
| 23:19.06 | nepugia | (this beeing my experience with them anyway :D ) |
| 23:19.21 | mozerelli | How come ascii have backports when it isn't even released officially yet? |
| 23:19.36 | mozerelli | or a backports repo |
| 23:19.58 | fsmithred | because ascii pulls packages from stretch |
| 23:20.13 | mozerelli | Oo that's right. Forgot about that |
| 23:20.34 | fsmithred | ascii is more stable than we say it is |
| 23:21.34 | fsmithred | bbl |
| 23:21.37 | MinceR | by saying that, you've triggered an infinite loop |
| 23:21.51 | fsmithred | runs away |
| 23:21.56 | KatolaZ | MinceR: ? |
| 23:23.29 | MinceR | KatolaZ: let 'x' be the degree of stability ascii a set of people including fsmithred claims; he just said x=x+y, where y is positive |
| 23:24.24 | gnarface | here's the way i think of it |
| 23:24.30 | gnarface | *microsoft* would have called it done already |
| 23:25.23 | nepugia | that bad huh? |
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| 23:26.47 | KatolaZ | MinceR: I see :) |
| 23:27.54 | MinceR | that's saying nothing, they sell everything as done |
| 23:28.20 | gnarface | microsoft would have shipped it months ago and feigned surprise at every broken gnome package |
| 23:29.04 | mozerelli | and yet call it a feature |
| 23:30.47 | nepugia | is gnome not working a feature? |
| 23:31.15 | mozerelli | at M$ it probably is |
| 23:32.01 | MinceR | gnome is broken because that's what the typical user is accustomed to |
| 23:36.00 | gnarface | what is the status of gnome right now in ascii? |
| 23:36.11 | gnarface | not that i'm gonna use it, but it keeps coming up |
| 23:38.19 | KatolaZ | dunno gnarface |
| 23:38.34 | KatolaZ | I stopped using gnome a while ago |
| 23:38.38 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 23:39.35 | mozerelli | what do you guys think of gtk3? Is it an utter mess like some people are claiming it to be? |
| 23:40.17 | MinceR | it is |
| 23:40.35 | MinceR | they put half a window manager in it, and kicked some of gimp's widgets out |
| 23:40.41 | MinceR | at didn't fare much better |
| 23:40.53 | MinceR | that has half a window manager in it as well, plus most of a web browser |
| 23:41.36 | mozerelli | Yeah. I wanted to do some tweaking. And to my great surprise, I saw some HTML5 code. |
| 23:41.58 | mozerelli | HTML5 code in a desktop environment? What the hell they were thinking? |
| 23:42.24 | MinceR | that they were making a "modern" widget toolkit |
| 23:42.31 | KatolaZ | well, if you think that Aqua is postscript... |
| 23:42.38 | MinceR | or that they had to boost hardware sales |
| 23:42.43 | specing | mozerelli: KDE now has their own web renderer |
| 23:42.46 | MinceR | s/at/qt/ |
| 23:42.54 | MinceR | undo |
| 23:42.58 | MinceR | s/^at/qt/ |
| 23:43.02 | KatolaZ | u |
| 23:43.09 | KatolaZ | :P |
| 23:43.16 | specing | MinceR: stahp, you are going to wreck our terminals |
| 23:43.19 | MinceR | :) |
| 23:43.25 | mozerelli | what happened to Vala? Why HTML5? |
| 23:43.58 | mozerelli | specing: isn't that the same renderer used in Konqueror? |
| 23:44.48 | specing | idk, but it is called webEngine or something |
| 23:45.07 | MinceR | QtWebEngine is Blink built into Qt |
| 23:45.23 | MinceR | and i think they kicked KHTML out of Konqueror a while ago |
| 23:46.17 | mozerelli | can't you just use good old c++ to create widgets? |
| 23:46.26 | MinceR | you probably can |
| 23:46.37 | mozerelli | (of course that would cancel out a shitload of hipsters) |
| 23:46.41 | MinceR | but if you want to build qt5, you'll still end up building half a windowing system and most of a web browser |
| 23:46.43 | mozerelli | hence the choice for HTML5 |
| 23:47.50 | mozerelli | How does building qt5 result in 50 window system / 50 web browser. Isn't that just a framework? |
| 23:48.02 | mozerelli | Do you mean KDE or? |
| 23:48.50 | mozerelli | Or Qt apps? |
| 23:48.57 | MinceR | no, i meant the qt5 library itself |
| 23:49.24 | MinceR | supporting CSD (for wayland) means drawing window decorations and handling them |
| 23:49.33 | MinceR | and QtWebEngine being included means having to build Blink |
| 23:50.28 | mozerelli | What's qtwebengine needed for. The first thing I can think of is having "web view" containers in applications |
| 23:50.38 | MinceR | yeah |
| 23:50.47 | MinceR | and web browsers |
| 23:53.22 | mozerelli | So it's not that strange then. Every major UI framework has it right? JavaFX, Cocoa, WPF and so on |
| 23:53.54 | MinceR | dunno, it didn't make a build last for hours and then fail to finish for me before |
| 23:53.56 | mozerelli | I can't see why is having a webengine in a UI framework bad |
| 23:54.10 | MinceR | because it's the single most bloated thing one can put in there |
| 23:54.14 | MinceR | it should be a separate library |
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| 23:56.10 | mozerelli | well that's just the nature of every framework. Every one of them seems to be wanting to push a certain rendering engine. |
| 23:56.26 | mozerelli | But I agree that it should be a separate library |
| 23:57.01 | MinceR | especially if one considers that it's also the part of the framework that is going to receive security updates most often |
| 23:59.21 | mozerelli | The big companies like MS, Apple and Google for example do that already IIRC. |
| 23:59.51 | MinceR | yeah, they do lots of things wrong |