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| 00:23.41 | *** topic/#devuan is Recent (2017-05-25): Jessie 1.0.0 stable release http://ur1.ca/qxaa5 | https://devuan.org/ discussion channel (logged at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan - with useful 'search') | Please take off-topic conversation to #debianfork | /msg chanserv info #devuan | !listkeys #devuan <foo> | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ |
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| 10:53.07 | tarragon | guys! keep up the good work |
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| 11:22.52 | user_` | hey guys |
| 11:24.01 | user_` | the main reason i couldn't stay with Devuan for now is that http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ forces HTTP politic. My provider injects malicious code into plain http pages and I need to use HTTPS sites, but your mirrors don't let apt use https evenn when apt-transport-https forces to |
| 11:24.38 | user_` | why such insecurity? all major distributions use https as defaults for apt mirror |
| 11:33.11 | pRiVi | user_`: If your provider suxx this is not devuan fault. |
| 11:34.11 | davidl | user_`: an option is to get yourself a VPN-tunnel: https://www.ovpn.com/sv |
| 11:34.19 | user_` | pRiVi, i am sorry but using http is lame nowdays |
| 11:34.37 | pRiVi | user_`: I think just you are lame. |
| 11:34.53 | user_` | pRiVi, if you think so, your security knowledge is near zero |
| 11:35.01 | user_` | continue using http. |
| 11:35.03 | user_` | gl |
| 11:36.33 | pRiVi | I hate this stupid idiology stuff all the time. |
| 11:36.57 | user_` | i hate people like you too, freenode's cancer |
| 11:37.31 | pRiVi | user_`: Go back to your cryptography guru |
| 11:37.34 | user_` | noobs that think have right to argue with people with serious argumens |
| 11:37.43 | user_` | oh i see you are just a troll |
| 11:37.47 | user_` | ok ignored |
| 11:37.53 | pRiVi | thanks |
| 11:39.06 | pRiVi | The echo chamber is waiting. ^^ |
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| 11:46.41 | OmegaPhil | Err, he is right WRT HTTP, however the authentication aspect of HTTPS is a joke. |
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| 11:48.00 | pRiVi | The packets are all signed and public, further encryption don't give anything than useless power consumption and unneeded complexity. |
| 11:48.40 | OmegaPhil | He just gave you the reason |
| 11:48.47 | pRiVi | There is so many things to do, donnot waste time on such things cause of idology of stupid peoples. |
| 11:49.23 | pRiVi | You are taking this efford of the need for damaged providers? |
| 11:49.33 | pRiVi | If some other provider blocks hTTPS you are doing what? |
| 11:49.41 | pRiVi | Another wasting of time? |
| 11:49.49 | OmegaPhil | If they block HTTPS then they are unusable in general |
| 11:49.52 | pRiVi | Transport per SSH ? |
| 11:50.04 | OmegaPhil | But no, I don't have an issue with encyrpting as much as possible |
| 11:50.08 | pRiVi | Injecting code in HTTP is also uncommon |
| 11:50.10 | OmegaPhil | This is the way things have to go |
| 11:50.16 | pRiVi | no |
| 11:50.22 | pRiVi | useless encryption is not needed |
| 11:50.35 | OmegaPhil | Until the powers that be demonstrate they no longer want to record and/or compromise people |
| 11:50.48 | pRiVi | It prevents many things, costs time and money and is only idologic |
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| 11:54.13 | zdzichu | injecting garbage into unencrypted streams is common, sadly |
| 11:54.20 | fsmithred | <PROTECTED> |
| 11:54.32 | zdzichu | but configuring https needs less effort than this discussion so far, why don't just do it? |
| 11:55.18 | user_` | setting up nginx with https is not a big effort |
| 11:59.38 | davidl | letsencrypt + cronjob and maintenance efforts = 0 |
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| 12:37.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | guess how much maintenance efforts I got with my 2 year wildcard cert |
| 12:40.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | LE clearly fails for all authentication purposes, and that's why I consider it detrimental to serious internet security |
| 12:41.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | guess what I'd do when my online banking had a LE cert that changes every 4 weeks ;-P |
| 12:42.07 | zdzichu | why would you have to do anything? |
| 12:44.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | exactly, I would *stop* doing a particular thing: using that online banking |
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| 12:45.38 | zdzichu | non sequitur |
| 12:46.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | so far a https meant you could trust into authenticity of far end server, to a certain degree. Now with LE that been nuked |
| 12:49.18 | zdzichu | nb. for banking I would expect EV cert, which LE doesn't provide |
| 12:49.21 | pRiVi | PFS/Diffie Hellmann would give safety from interception in any case if there is no man in the middle, which clearly is nowhere the fact. |
| 12:49.32 | pRiVi | But we have no such problem here, everything is signed and safe. |
| 12:49.39 | zdzichu | but validity period? that not something to care |
| 12:49.48 | pRiVi | Just security nazi persons want everything crypted cause of idology. |
| 12:50.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | and actually iirc it's default that the LE cronjob also updates own script. So when ever the LE CA infra gets rooted then that cracker for sure got the jackpot, he owned a substantial better part of **whole internet** |
| 12:50.57 | zdzichu | only for people using certbot |
| 12:51.07 | zdzichu | happily, there are millions of client for LE |
| 12:51.18 | pRiVi | DocScrutinizer05: Use self signed, and good. pfs will work in this case also. |
| 12:51.28 | pRiVi | But security nazi will annoy you |
| 12:51.35 | pRiVi | case its getting red and naaaag |
| 12:51.45 | pRiVi | This is all completly sucking! |
| 12:52.17 | parazyd | yeah |
| 12:52.30 | parazyd | the problem is you get that cop in your browser |
| 12:53.00 | parazyd | the whole thing should be redesigned |
| 12:53.04 | pRiVi | use sigend packagaes, leave http and all is good |
| 12:53.14 | pRiVi | we JUST HAVE NO PROBLEM |
| 12:54.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | nota bene it's Let's ENCRYPT, **not** Let's Authenticate |
| 12:54.20 | parazyd | implying tls works for authentication |
| 12:54.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | a misconception |
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| 12:54.45 | zdzichu | pRiVi: how would self-signed cert solve OmegaPhil's problem? |
| 12:55.35 | gnarface | so, i really thought golinux was just picking on me alone, for being off-topic |
| 12:55.41 | gnarface | but now i'm completely convinced |
| 12:55.46 | gnarface | you all need to move this to #debianfork |
| 12:55.57 | _abc_ | Hello. Was googling myself (_abc_ irc logs), came up with this log on #debian just months ago. Fwiw devuan 1.0 works prefectly on precisely the system on which their crap systemd and driver snafu barfed. Fun reading. / _abc_ @ link for faster access to ... |
| 12:55.58 | gnarface | and pRiVi you're so wrong it's fucking scary |
| 12:56.01 | _abc_ | ... the bad joke that debian (not devuan) has become http://debian-channel-logs.blogspot.ro/2017/01/debian-channel-featuring-tomtomto1.html |
| 12:56.27 | zdzichu | gnarface: the problem of ISP messing with devuan's repo seem to belong here |
| 12:56.41 | parazyd | ^^ |
| 12:56.54 | parazyd | it's a discussion on devuan not providing proper https |
| 12:56.59 | _abc_ | Who messes with devuan's repo? |
| 12:57.06 | parazyd | anyone who wants to |
| 12:57.22 | _abc_ | Ouch? |
| 12:57.23 | pRiVi | _abc_: Nobody! The packages are signed and nothing gets messed. |
| 12:57.30 | _abc_ | I just joined, what was this about? Oh. |
| 12:57.37 | pRiVi | One person cannot download because his provider changes packages and the checksum gehts bad |
| 12:57.48 | pRiVi | and the asks for HTTPS to solve this... |
| 12:57.50 | _abc_ | Oh fun. Whihc one? |
| 12:58.17 | pRiVi | _abc_: After that security nazis came and told you just are unsecure if you use http... |
| 12:58.30 | pRiVi | and doonnot understand working of HTTPS, PFS, letsencrypt and so on |
| 12:58.37 | _abc_ | Apropos sigs: PLEASE enforce checking .sig for a package from another server than where the d/l is located. I always do this but using a .sig linked to 'redirecting' server pool helps, in the indexes. |
| 12:59.08 | _abc_ | pRiVi: I know, 90% of stoopid news sites are now https, using only modern certs which embedded linux tools can't use. |
| 12:59.19 | _abc_ | Makes for a lot of fun when upgrading/checking things. Not. |
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| 13:00.02 | pRiVi | yes, it so anoying all ther security poetterings out there |
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| 13:19.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | for HTTPS download you're free to use any of the mirrors, though many will need a "security exception" for their cert |
| 13:20.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | e.g. my mirror doesn't have a proper cert for that URL installed |
| 13:25.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | then otoh I'd try (in that sequence of priority) to: get a better ISP; use wget; just try using https with the mirrors and allow "security exception" in browser; use *ftp with one of the mirrors that support it; use torrent which afaik does a very fine job checksumming every single chunk it downloads |
| 13:31.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | pph, sorry, missed to read backscroll that far back. The problem is about apt-get update resp install. Right? |
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| 13:32.37 | fsmithred | yes doc. ISP injects extra stuff into http |
| 13:32.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | sucks big time |
| 13:33.09 | fsmithred | I would complain to isp |
| 13:33.25 | fsmithred | does microsoft use https for software updates? |
| 13:33.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | the VPN suggestion was to the point in that case. And I beg everybody to stay polite and not start a conversation with stuff like "go to your guru" or "I hate people like you" |
| 13:33.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | you're lucky I didn't notice ;-) |
| 13:37.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | fsmithred: I have no idea what M$ does, I don't know shit about apt and how it works and is configured either. But I guess it's feasible to force apt to use https with ignoring any cert issues |
| 13:37.54 | fsmithred | I checked debian mirror list, and they use http |
| 13:38.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | I bet 9 out of 10 have https enabled too, just no proper cert for it |
| 13:39.11 | DPA | I'm using apt-mirror + a tor transparent proxy. It's faster than just using apt's tor transport. I suspect it may not always be end2end encrypted, but it's better than nothing. I have a mirror with valid certs at https://mirror.dpa.li/devuan/, but I only mirror main, contrib, and non-free from {jessie,ascii}{,-updates,-security,-backports}, and I only run apt-mirror once a day using cron. |
| 13:39.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | after all I guess it's just git behind a standard whatever-http-server (apache, nginx... you name it) |
| 13:40.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | DPA: excellent, should fix user_'s problem with rogue ISP too |
| 13:41.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | both your mirror and particularly the suggestion to use Tor |
| 13:42.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | I guess it's equivalent to using a VPN, regarding this rogue-ISP issue |
| 13:43.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh, and the master (not any mirror) for sure should support HTTPS with proper cert |
| 13:45.07 | gnarface | what is the ISP in question? |
| 13:45.46 | *** mode/#devuan [+o DocScrutinizer05] by ChanServ |
| 13:45.47 | gnarface | i'm keeping a shit list |
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| 13:46.34 | _abc_ | Yes, say what isp please. |
| 13:46.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | FSCK that IRC client!!! ;-P |
| 13:46.49 | *** mode/#devuan [+o DocScrutinizer05] by ChanServ |
| 13:47.28 | *** topic/#devuan by DocScrutinizer05 -> Recent (2017-05-25): Jessie 1.0.0 stable release http://ur1.ca/qxaa5 || This is the Devuan https://devuan.org/ discussion channel (logged at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan - with useful 'search') | Please take off-topic conversation to #debianfork | /msg chanserv info #devuan | !listkeys #devuan <foo> | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ |
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| 13:47.41 | *** mode/#devuan [-o DocScrutinizer05] by ChanServ |
| 13:48.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | if you wonder: only cosmetics |
| 13:48.24 | _abc_ | DocScrutinizer05: was that an automated /topic set? Seems to not have changed since I joined earlyer? |
| 13:48.30 | _abc_ | oh |
| 13:48.32 | _abc_ | :) |
| 13:48.37 | _abc_ | So WHAT ISP is that? |
| 13:48.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, I missed the context |
| 13:49.01 | _abc_ | Note there are also other isp nasties around, for example mine redirects all port 53 outgoing from clients to their own mirrors. |
| 13:49.16 | _abc_ | When they are down nothing moves. 8.8.8.8 8.8.4.4 etc included. |
| 13:49.28 | _abc_ | And they tend to be down now and then when DDoS is on. |
| 13:49.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | oh, I don't know which is user_'s ISP |
| 13:49.47 | _abc_ | assumes whois knows |
| 13:49.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | they didn't mention it |
| 13:49.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep, /whowas maybe |
| 13:50.18 | _abc_ | PJSC MTS / former CJSC Comstar-Direct Moscow Russia. Makes sense |
| 13:50.55 | _abc_ | Erm who was the oem user posting? |
| 13:51.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | user_ iirc |
| 13:52.02 | _abc_ | Then I may have whois'd someone else above. Sorry. |
| 13:54.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | user_`: ^^^ please what's your ISP? |
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| 13:55.47 | user_` | MTS. we have an ISP called 'Beeline' which does the same |
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| 14:00.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | did you try >>We provide access to our package repository also via Tor: install apt-transport-tor...<< (from https://devuan.org/) - note please I have no clue if and how this works, never looked into it |
| 14:01.10 | user_` | going to try thanks! |
| 14:04.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | Tor must tunnel all conversations through encrypted protocol (I guess https) or it would fail on its main purpose |
| 14:04.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/conversations/transmissions/ |
| 14:08.20 | DPA | Interresting, when requesting a debian package from https://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/pool/, I get a redirect to http://httpredir.debian.org/. It redirects from https to http. It would indeed make sense to redirect to https://deb.denian.org/ instead when using https. Similarely, the redirect in case of the onion addres should be to the ones specified at onion.debian.org. |
| 14:08.42 | DPA | *deb.debian.org |
| 14:09.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | *ack* |
| 14:09.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | user_`: maybe what I found is convenient for you too? http://people.skolelinux.org/pere/blog/Always_download_Debian_packages_using_Tor___the_simple_recipe.html |
| 14:10.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | note that the sed patterns need to be replaced by manual edit of your /etc/apt/sources.list according to what's given in https://devuan.org/ |
| 14:14.46 | Ten | Hi guys, I can't seem to open Virtualbox in Devuan. Am I the only one or is this a known issue? Any work-arounds? |
| 14:14.54 | Ten | Many thanks in advance |
| 14:16.20 | DPA | DocScrutinizer05: By the way, tor doesn't automatically use https. Instead, it has a number of hops where each can decrypt one encryption layer. If an onion address is used, the exit node and the server are usually, but not necessarely, at the same host, and therefor end to end encrypted. For normal addresses though, the traffic exits the exit node unencrypted if http instead of https is used. Tor isn't made for end2end encryption, but for an |
| 14:17.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | DPA: yes, i'm aware of that. BTW your post got truncated at >>d. Tor isn't made for end2end encryption, but for an|<< |
| 14:18.08 | _abc_ | *anonimity :) |
| 14:18.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | for user_`'s problem the details make no difference, all that matters is the forst hop from user to first Tor node, and I strongly suspect that's usually encrypted |
| 14:18.51 | MinceR | Tor with hidden services does provide end2end encryption though, afaik |
| 14:19.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | first, even |
| 14:19.50 | user_` | it's possible to mitm a hidden service stream if it's not http also |
| 14:19.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | so user_`'s rogue ISP couldn't interfere |
| 14:19.59 | user_` | but that's another question |
| 14:20.17 | _abc_ | user_`: well it is related |
| 14:20.26 | _abc_ | user_`: were you the one who had trouble with the isp? |
| 14:20.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 14:20.55 | _abc_ | ok |
| 14:21.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | [Sun 25 June 2017] [13:24:01] <user_`> the main reason i couldn't stay with Devuan for now is that http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ forces HTTP politic. My provider injects malicious code into plain http pages |
| 14:22.26 | _abc_ | user_`: is that malicious injection related to ads? |
| 14:22.30 | buZz | we do have tor package sources though? |
| 14:22.33 | buZz | dont we? |
| 14:22.34 | sedrosken | _abc_ this is kind of offtopic but since you're not in #debianfork I have to say it here, that link you provided earlier with the #debian log is pretty interesting reading |
| 14:22.51 | buZz | yeah we do |
| 14:22.52 | buZz | deb tor+http://devuanfwojg73k6r.onion/merged jessie main |
| 14:23.39 | _abc_ | sedrosken: yes. Note nothing has improved, more recent discussions had the same outcome and the usual denizens seem to be proud of their attitude. |
| 14:23.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | buZz: [2017-06-25 Sun 16:00:26] <DocScrutinizer05> did you try >>We provide access to our package repository also via Tor: install apt-transport-tor...<< (from https://devuan.org/) - note please I have no clue if and how this works, never looked into it |
| 14:23.47 | buZz | <3 |
| 14:23.48 | buZz | ilu2 |
| 14:24.21 | sedrosken | I'd like to direct this into #debianfork or PM if at all possible, to keep the OT content out of the support channel |
| 14:24.47 | _abc_ | sedrosken: direct what? I can join now if you think it's important? |
| 14:25.06 | sedrosken | not particularly important, just an interesting conversation I had with a systemd shill |
| 14:25.18 | *** join/#devuan msiism (~msi@dslb-188-106-193-141.188.106.pools.vodafone-ip.de) |
| 14:25.30 | golinux | Yeah #debianfork for that |
| 14:25.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, please |
| 14:29.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | user_`: please report back if Tor solves your problem |
| 14:30.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | also what are the obstacles you run into with that solution, if any |
| 14:32.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | idly wonders if and how amprolla handles Tor sources |
| 14:34.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | if I'm not totaly mistaken, DPA's comment >>when requesting a debian package from https://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/pool/, I get a redirect to http://httpredir.debian.org/. It redirects from https to http. It would indeed make sense to redirect to https://deb.denian.org/ instead when using https<< applies analogically to tor+http: |
| 14:36.30 | DPA | Yes, it does. Bit it should be a http redirect to the tor adresses listed at onion.debian.org |
| 14:37.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | I mean, it doesn't help much when Tor is used to download a Packages.list and getting redirects for package download, and those redirects point to plain http:foo.debian.org/ again, instead of tor+http:/foo.debian... |
| 14:39.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe^H I don't understand how apt-get works, at all |
| 14:40.43 | DPA | .onion adresses only resolv through tor, and when using tor+http in source.list, apt must proxy any redirect through tor. Redirectiong to tor+http wouldn't work since it isn't a valid protocoll. It woukd yust break the mirror. |
| 14:41.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | I wonder how redirects work at all inside Tor |
| 14:41.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | particularly when redirecting to another domain |
| 14:41.50 | _abc_ | a redirect to an external host without user interaction is an xss domain violation |
| 14:42.07 | _abc_ | one expects it not to work even without tor, and I have such a setup, with noredirect in ff |
| 14:42.10 | _abc_ | +extension |
| 14:42.18 | _abc_ | Anyone with half a neuron will understand that. |
| 14:42.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, nope |
| 14:42.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | redirects are standard HTTP stuff |
| 14:42.34 | _abc_ | Another name for unflagged manual redirects is 'clickjacking' |
| 14:42.41 | *** join/#devuan Obi_Code_konobi (~Obi_Code_@c110-21-187-221.blktn5.nsw.optusnet.com.au) |
| 14:42.48 | _abc_ | Disagree. Any redirect to another domain requires the user's consent. |
| 14:42.51 | _abc_ | brb |
| 14:43.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | you misunderstood which redirect we talk about here |
| 14:43.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | !amprolla |
| 14:43.09 | infobot | nextime gave an excellent explanation how amprolla works, at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/2016-05-07/?msg=65646427&page=4, or https://git.devuan.org/devuan-infrastructure/amprolla |
| 14:43.30 | _abc_ | There are only 2 kinds of redirect, human user assisted (click or action) and implcit (30x) |
| 14:43.56 | _abc_ | The human assisted one MUST signal to the user he is switching domains, by displaying the target url at least |
| 14:43.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | this is a 30x (302?) |
| 14:44.06 | _abc_ | The 30x can be blocked and IS blocked by all sane people. |
| 14:44.10 | _abc_ | 302 indeed |
| 14:44.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | apt is no "people" |
| 14:45.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | and the mere existence of devuan in its current shape shows it usually works |
| 14:45.15 | _abc_ | apt and 302's (and get and 302's) will get you into hot water in any insecure setup, if ANY ONE of the middlemen runs some sort of mirror or cache which may be dirty or have exploits/ads added. |
| 14:45.33 | *** join/#devuan opencw (~opencw@2a02:908:b42:d120:325a:3aff:fe7c:ee1b) |
| 14:45.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | well |
| 14:45.49 | _abc_ | Meaning, your school firewall, your internet cafe box, your isp, your national gumshoe misguided it outfit etc. |
| 14:45.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | you may want to discuss this with nextime or Centurion_Dan |
| 14:46.11 | _abc_ | DocScrutinizer05: I think we just SAW such a problem with user_` ? Although not directly a 302? |
| 14:46.17 | *** join/#devuan |\n (~x0a@unaffiliated/siberiannerd) |
| 14:46.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | not as I understood it |
| 14:46.49 | _abc_ | Right. I'll be quiet now. |
| 14:47.24 | user_` | such a big discussion for a little problem, what is actually the problem to bring https on the web server serving a mirror? |
| 14:47.24 | user_` | ssl certs are cheap nowadays |
| 14:47.52 | user_` | get a comodo wildcard cert and it will serve for good |
| 14:47.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | the problem is: the mirrors are not under devuan/dyne administration |
| 14:48.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | I got a wildcard 2year cert on my server, but not for the domain the mirror uses. And that's on purpose |
| 14:49.08 | pRiVi | user_`: it seems for me that you just want to convert us in meaning of idology about https. |
| 14:49.28 | |\n | could you please expand on it a bit? regarding administration of mirrors, would it be a problem and why? |
| 14:49.51 | parazyd | DocScrutinizer05: the issue is here: https://git.devuan.org/devuan-infrastructure/amprolla/blob/master/nginx/rewrites.conf |
| 14:49.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | dyne.org is free to provide a cert for neo900.files.dev-1.org, but then that's just a file mirror, no apt mirror |
| 14:50.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | pRiVi: please keep it less emotional |
| 14:50.43 | parazyd | so no matter what protocol you use ,you will always end up in plain http |
| 14:51.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | parazyd: what I was afraid of, yep |
| 14:51.22 | DPA | _abc_: I disagree: When using https, Redirects are only possible by the server, which usually has a good reason to do so. Using http, an ISP can inject anything he want into the page. XSS is if malcious content is injected into a page. It often happens through incorrect inclusion of ads. In fact, there is no ads network allowing to sandbox ads using iframes correctly, which isn't an issue when not embeding ads. |
| 14:51.43 | pRiVi | DPA: This is NOT A PROBLEM AT ALL |
| 14:51.48 | user_` | exactly |
| 14:52.03 | |\n | how is that not a problem? |
| 14:52.09 | pRiVi | the packages are signed |
| 14:52.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | parazyd: but nevertheless apt itself might be smart enough to do its own rewrite, I guess. Though I have no clue how that would work for arbitrary Tor addresses |
| 14:52.24 | pRiVi | your apt will refuse to install redirected packages |
| 14:52.26 | _abc_ | DPA: and you think some crap ad page redirect is okay because it's coming over https from some crap server I am visiting for an unrelated purpose? |
| 14:52.34 | _abc_ | DPA: not on my machine |
| 14:52.35 | |\n | and failure to get packages due to malformed signature is not a problem? |
| 14:52.45 | parazyd | DocScrutinizer05: onions are always encrypted, http/https does not matter |
| 14:52.47 | pRiVi | NO, but not of devuan but YOU |
| 14:52.50 | _abc_ | DPA: you get the option to be redirected or not in the browser. |
| 14:53.07 | |\n | linux is it's community, historically |
| 14:53.10 | pRiVi | And your bad provider changing stuff |
| 14:53.22 | |\n | applies to devuan as well, if not - you're right |
| 14:53.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | parazyd: sure, I know. But how would amprolla forward to ""sed -i 's% http://ftp.debian.org/% tor+http://vwakviie2ienjx6t.onion/%' /etc/apt/sources.list"" |
| 14:54.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | aiui amprolla needs to handle that? or would apt-transport-tor take care? |
| 14:54.56 | parazyd | the problem is it doesn't redirect, it rather rewrites |
| 14:55.10 | parazyd | and it's you who ends up dealing with the request, not the backend |
| 14:55.13 | parazyd | meaning: |
| 14:55.25 | parazyd | the devuan mirror doesn't fetch the packages, you do |
| 14:55.32 | pRiVi | parazyd: resultig in failing - perfectly! Nothinge better can happen! |
| 14:55.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, I know |
| 14:55.35 | |\n | there is some amount of users that won't be able to fetch security updates in time, if it doesn't sounds like a problem to leverage, efforts to apply measures against vpn and tor in my lands are significant |
| 14:55.36 | pRiVi | Its not a bug, its a feature. |
| 14:55.47 | DPA | _abc_: I have a good DNS based adblocker, and my webpages don't serve ads. Redirects happen all the time, when you click a google search link, when a website wants you to use the www prefix or redirects to https, etc. The redirects aren't the problem, badly made websites or not using https are. |
| 14:55.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | pRiVi: 1st warning |
| 14:56.05 | parazyd | pRiVi: not exactly, because if you use tor+http, you still end up on a http site |
| 14:56.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | pRiVi: keep it cool, please |
| 14:56.28 | parazyd | in this case, http://deb.debian.org or whatever |
| 14:57.24 | pRiVi | This discussion is all failing. If your client/provider http does not work its not a thing of the http server to fix that. |
| 14:57.43 | pRiVi | It it fails it is just the right thing. |
| 14:57.51 | pRiVi | I am done with that. |
| 14:58.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | then please stop it |
| 14:58.09 | pRiVi | Arguing with https is nothing else then idolism of others. |
| 14:58.17 | pRiVi | ok, i will stop now. |
| 14:58.34 | pRiVi | Have fun with the idlogic poeple. |
| 14:59.40 | |\n | you just too low to keep it up, since you're unable to provide real arguments, instead you judge of certain group of people as of idiots |
| 14:59.46 | _abc_ | DPA: incidentally, yes, I use google with js blocked and redirs blocked. |
| 14:59.48 | |\n | school is that way -> |
| 15:00.08 | _abc_ | DPA: because when they provide a tracker link in the js less mode, I can elect to edit the url or re 'find' it with something like godaddy. |
| 15:00.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | |\n: you please also stop |
| 15:00.22 | |\n | deal |
| 15:00.52 | DPA | pRiVi: It is possible to abuse http for mirrors by malcious people, it allows to significantly delay security fixes until the package list expires. |
| 15:00.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | let me deal with it |
| 15:01.08 | user_` | privi should be removed from the channel already, he does nothing but raises conflict |
| 15:01.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | please verybody, we stop that topic now |
| 15:02.13 | |\n | wise, but if we stop it, any further considerations from command center on that subject? |
| 15:02.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | that topic == emotionally biased "high temperature" discussion |
| 15:02.36 | user_` | why is that? |
| 15:02.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | the channel mood gets uncomfortable |
| 15:03.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | let's focus on technical stuff please |
| 15:03.20 | |\n | how is that subject not related to technical stuff? |
| 15:03.21 | user_` | what's bad in using https? what's bad in adding security ... i dont' understand |
| 15:04.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | nothing. I warned pRiVi already, now that's a general warning to not continue that fingerpointing and insulting bitching |
| 15:04.30 | _abc_ | nothing is bad, but certs are required. Since letsencrypt exists they are not that hard to get hold of, essentially for free. |
| 15:06.59 | |\n | just to clarify, you refuse to keep discussing it because "channel mood gets uncomfortable", when the raised concern is uncomfortable and even dangerous technically? |
| 15:07.09 | user_` | i can donate you for cover expenditures on certs |
| 15:07.21 | *** join/#devuan Akuli (~Akuli@mobile-access-bceef7-70.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 15:08.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually certs never were hard to get, a self signed cert is perfectly fine for encryption. LE changed the chain of trust in that now I should trust in *them* for an authentication(!!!) that actually isn't any better than with self signed certs, just it doesn't ring a bell in your browser, unlike selfsigned |
| 15:08.58 | user_` | why not to trust general CA's ? such as verisign etc |
| 15:09.23 | DPA | Devuan uses Let's encrypt for certificates, which don't cist anything. |
| 15:09.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | !dict cist |
| 15:10.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | cost? |
| 15:10.40 | DPA | em, yes. |
| 15:10.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
| 15:11.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, I'm a tad slow, just 2nd coffe now |
| 15:11.04 | user_` | i suppose so. yes, i understand they are free and the problem is that they change their roots frequently |
| 15:11.14 | user_` | and what i say that paid certs would solve that problem |
| 15:12.18 | *** join/#devuan atrapado_ (~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado) |
| 15:13.13 | *** join/#devuan Everche (~zaiwurong@114.240.247.117) |
| 15:13.15 | user_` | freenode uses gandi ssl btw, these are cheap |
| 15:14.11 | *** join/#devuan mchasard (~mchasard@48.233.8.109.rev.sfr.net) |
| 15:14.22 | user_` | oh sorry, used in the past then... it's lets encrypt as well now |
| 15:14.33 | |\n | there is subjective thing, if one will choose to donate (https://devuan.org/os/donate#via-bitcoin ?) what are possibilities it will arrive in relation to the currently discussed subject as well? |
| 15:15.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://wstaw.org/m/2017/06/25/plasma-desktopKQ8317.png |
| 15:16.04 | DPA | It is true that new certificates have to be requested once a month, but that's an automated process and doesn't cause much trouble, it's just that services have to reload the certs, and if a service can't do that on the fly, it has to be restarted. The lets encrypt root certs doesn't change very often and are trusted by almost anyone. |
| 15:18.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://wstaw.org/m/2017/06/25/plasma-desktopTY8317.png |
| 15:20.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | |\n: please rephrase. I don't know if "jaromil prefers paid certs as well" is a valid answer |
| 15:21.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway it seems to me parazyd explained that right now https isn't really supported by amprolla |
| 15:21.58 | *** part/#devuan _abc_ (~ruse@unaffiliated/ccbbaa) |
| 15:22.09 | *** join/#devuan Obi_Code_konobi (~Obi_Code_@c110-21-187-221.blktn5.nsw.optusnet.com.au) |
| 15:22.10 | parazyd | s/really/properly/ |
| 15:22.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | or that :-) |
| 15:22.40 | parazyd | fwiw, we use 3 rewrites |
| 15:22.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | so I wonder if tor is |
| 15:22.52 | parazyd | tor doesn't use https |
| 15:23.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, it uses tor-http |
| 15:23.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | + even |
| 15:23.10 | parazyd | yeah, that's ok |
| 15:23.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | how's that OK? |
| 15:23.47 | parazyd | because we can't provide an onion for deb.debian.org |
| 15:23.59 | parazyd | anyway, to get back to my point |
| 15:24.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | is the tor prefix working with the standard http rewrites, *and resulting in correct 'URL'*? |
| 15:24.20 | |\n | well, honestly, i fail to follow, there is an issue on cleartext data manipulation in correspondance with devuan security patches arrival: (a) will donations will help to deal with it? (b) what else can be done? |
| 15:24.26 | parazyd | we have 3 rewrites, and two of them do support https - which will be fixed |
| 15:24.28 | |\n | be it paid certs or not |
| 15:24.29 | user_` | <parazyd> because we can't provide an onion for deb.debian.org => why not? |
| 15:24.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, debian provides an onion service themselves |
| 15:24.48 | parazyd | however, there is still the issue with security.debian.org, which doesn't give https |
| 15:24.49 | user_` | even better then |
| 15:24.55 | parazyd | so i don't know what to do with that |
| 15:25.06 | parazyd | in any case, the nginx configuration needs some fixing |
| 15:25.45 | DPA | parazyd: The tor redirects should go to the hidden services listed at onion.debian.org for end2end encryption, the redirects should keep using http:// |
| 15:25.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | user_`: ((why not??) because this is devian.org NOT debian.org |
| 15:25.52 | gnarface | hmm... nginx has a crippled rewrite engine. |
| 15:25.56 | parazyd | DPA: that's right |
| 15:26.25 | parazyd | gnarface: not necessarily, just needs a https entry that looks the same like the http entry, but rewrites to https (except security.debian.org where it's not applicable) |
| 15:26.54 | user_` | DocScrutinizer05, yeah, but my question was unrelated, i thought there is some technical obstacle. |
| 15:27.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | it is |
| 15:27.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | we can't administrate the debian servers. But they _do_ offer tor themselves, so we need to fix amprolla aiui |
| 15:27.36 | user_` | which? technically you can point a hidden service to the server you don't own |
| 15:27.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | please see !amprolla |
| 15:28.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | user_`: yes, and I doubt amprolla does |
| 15:28.07 | parazyd | user_`: you can, but where you are pointing to has to also be an onion |
| 15:28.10 | parazyd | otherwise there is no sense |
| 15:28.24 | parazyd | s/sense/point/ |
| 15:29.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | or what DPA said |
| 15:29.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>The tor redirects should go to the hidden services listed at onion.debian.org<< |
| 15:29.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | right now amprolla soesn't do that aiui |
| 15:29.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | doesn't* |
| 15:30.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | we need am additional set of rewrite rules, for tor+http:// ? |
| 15:31.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://git.devuan.org/devuan-infrastructure/amprolla/blob/master/nginx/rewrites.conf |
| 15:32.47 | |\n | so when i hit against devuan mirror, it may fail to re-fetch via https from debian mirror at the current stage? do i get it right? |
| 15:33.29 | |\n | or the similar applies to .onion? |
| 15:33.29 | *** join/#devuan RedAcor (~RedAcor@gateway/tor-sasl/redacor) |
| 15:33.32 | |\n | any possibilities for environment-related workarounds for that? |
| 15:33.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | |\n: aiui yes, answer to your first line |
| 15:34.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes to 2nd too |
| 15:34.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | don't get the 3rd |
| 15:35.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | I *guess* a user-local transparent proxy doing some URL rewrites can work wonders |
| 15:35.33 | |\n | thanks, DocScrutinizer05 |
| 15:36.08 | user_` | !amprolla |
| 15:36.08 | infobot | nextime gave an excellent explanation how amprolla works, at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/2016-05-07/?msg=65646427&page=4, or https://git.devuan.org/devuan-infrastructure/amprolla |
| 15:36.39 | parazyd | DocScrutinizer05: https://github.com/parazyd/amprolla/blob/master/contrib/nginx.conf |
| 15:36.43 | parazyd | so this is the solution |
| 15:37.21 | *** join/#devuan giricz81 (~giricz81@ip4-83-240-38-90.cust.nbox.cz) |
| 15:37.27 | user_` | yeah it is |
| 15:37.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | HAH, line 44 ff |
| 15:38.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | for a total HTTP-et-al noob like me that looks pretty decent |
| 15:39.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | parazyd: I gather that's your private repo and not production yet? |
| 15:39.41 | parazyd | yes |
| 15:39.52 | parazyd | also found in https://git.devuan.org/maemo/amprolla |
| 15:39.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | so make it go prime time! ASAP :-) |
| 15:40.09 | parazyd | if it were up to me i would |
| 15:40.18 | parazyd | but things tend to move annoyingly slow |
| 15:40.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, sounds strangely familiar, DocScrutinizer05 to blame for the neo900 slowness |
| 15:41.04 | |\n | <3 parazyd |
| 15:41.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | indeed |
| 15:41.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | best guy of the day |
| 15:41.45 | parazyd | this amprolla implementation does a full merge in 10 minutes, and incremental merges in 2 minutes :p |
| 15:41.56 | user_` | yes solved, thanks parazyd |
| 15:41.58 | parazyd | compared to the production which afaik takes 20+ hours |
| 15:42.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | jaromil: ^^^ it seems we need a fix to amprolla to support Tor all way down to debian redirects |
| 15:42.20 | parazyd | golang would be faster :/ |
| 15:42.47 | user_` | hope it go prod soon |
| 15:45.13 | |\n | УÐÐÐ ÐÐÐ! ÐÐÐ ÐÐУРÐÐ ÐС - УÐÐ ÐС <3 СÐÐÐÐ ÐÐÐРФÐÐ |
| 15:45.15 | *** part/#devuan |\n (~x0a@unaffiliated/siberiannerd) |
| 15:45.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | o.O |
| 15:46.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | siberiannerd thinks he may shout that stuff at us? ;-P |
| 15:47.10 | parazyd | dafuq? |
| 15:47.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | hehe |
| 15:48.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | google translate's >>UPARELA! PARAZUD PRNS - UPRLS <3 SLDKY DMRFIN<< doesn't make more sense. (supposed to be *english*! ;-P ) |
| 15:48.51 | parazyd | hence the dafuq |
| 15:49.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | I suspect a keymap issue |
| 15:50.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | what's ctrl+Q on a cyrilic (russian) kbd? |
| 15:50.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | does it change? |
| 15:50.58 | parazyd | you don't get latin chars on that one |
| 15:51.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, that's why I ask if on cyrilic still the upper leftmost char key would close the program when ctrl-modified |
| 15:51.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | or some other key does that |
| 15:51.56 | user_` | it wont |
| 15:51.57 | parazyd | not quite sure how it works |
| 15:51.59 | fsmithred | I'm gonna test it |
| 15:52.36 | parazyd | fsmithred: stahp! |
| 15:52.41 | parazyd | make sure you have a way to revert |
| 15:52.48 | parazyd | i once did setxkbmap |
| 15:52.51 | fsmithred | doing it in vm |
| 15:52.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | LOL |
| 15:53.00 | parazyd | and then lost the term and history |
| 15:53.13 | fsmithred | yeah, I've done enough stupid stuff like that |
| 15:53.15 | parazyd | panicked, and copied the command with the mouse, letter by letter |
| 15:53.19 | parazyd | lol |
| 15:53.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | alias 111='setxkbmap us' |
| 15:53.38 | fsmithred | had to do that when the C key stopped working once |
| 15:54.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh btw, fsmithred, yesterday I thought about exactly this as an icon on live desktop |
| 15:54.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | not alias but icon execute |
| 15:55.50 | parazyd | funny enough, there are no repeating characters in `setxkbmap us` |
| 15:55.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | if we wanna go fancy, make the desktop icon a dir that opens, with execute icons for "setxkbmap us", ".... de", whatnot else |
| 15:55.58 | fsmithred | ok, if I set my us keyboard to Russia, ctrl-q still works to close thunar |
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| 15:57.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | straight way to help users out when they e.g. need cyrilic, or accidentally had set cyrilic keymap and can't revert now |
| 15:57.22 | fsmithred | DocScrutinizer05, that would make sense for anyone using a destkop that doesn't have a keyboard switcher |
| 15:57.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: |
| 15:57.40 | fsmithred | but those using wm won't have desktop icons (in many cases) |
| 15:58.39 | fsmithred | I guess I should include the keyboard switcher in the panel in the live. |
| 15:58.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep |
| 15:59.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | I had a hard time figuring how to switch us->de keymap, until some nice guy told me about setxkbmap ;-D |
| 16:00.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | which (funny enough for technically savvy laymen) works for the whole system, not only the terminal it's typed into |
| 16:01.09 | fsmithred | cool |
| 16:01.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | the "x" in the name gives it away though |
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| 16:01.20 | parazyd | not in a tty though :p |
| 16:01.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | hehe no, only under X11 |
| 16:01.38 | fsmithred | I just made a note to add the keyboard-layouts to panel |
| 16:01.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually under same $DISPLAY: |
| 16:02.10 | fsmithred | well, that's good. You don't want to change it for other users. |
| 16:02.14 | parazyd | i hope for a standalone switcher like what lightdm has at the login screen |
| 16:02.33 | fsmithred | yeah, that would be good. |
| 16:02.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | a "DISPLAY=:0.0 setxkbmap de" might even work from console |
| 16:02.44 | fsmithred | independent from the specific de |
| 16:02.50 | parazyd | DocScrutinizer05: it will |
| 16:09.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | back to rogue ISPs, what's the recommended way to deal with that issue *for now*? Seems Tor doesn't work, https:// doesn't work either |
| 16:09.59 | fsmithred | rocket launcher? |
| 16:10.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, best approach :-P |
| 16:10.18 | fsmithred | probably need something bigger |
| 16:10.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah you know, this is the ARPA err Internet |
| 16:10.43 | parazyd | make noise and get the new amprolla in production :p |
| 16:10.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | it been *designed* to withstand such attacks |
| 16:11.19 | fsmithred | would it be possible and would it make sense to implement amprolla3 in ascii/ceres to start? |
| 16:12.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | we need some of the core devs it seems. nextime, Centurion_Dan, jaromil, who's in charge of amprolla right now? |
| 16:13.10 | parazyd | fsmithred: i guess, it merges whatever you tell it to |
| 16:13.40 | parazyd | not sure if it makes sense though |
| 16:13.53 | fsmithred | I mean doing that with the default url, not yours |
| 16:14.23 | gnarface | DocScrutinizer05: re ISPs; i would say just openvpn or ssh tunnel your traffic out to a remote server NOT owned by said ISP, but some crappy ones like Comcast throttle that traffic to like 128kbps max so, it's not a solution that will be a magic charm for everyone :( |
| 16:15.01 | parazyd | fsmithred: i understood |
| 16:15.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep, but feasible for indiviual cases |
| 16:15.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | gnarface: thanks |
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| 16:15.29 | gnarface | DocScrutinizer05: openvpn works *really* well if they're not throttling it |
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| 16:15.46 | gnarface | first time setup is a pain in the ass but the howto is complete. just read it twice |
| 16:15.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | now I need an idea how to set up and maintain a ssh tunnel infra for "strangers" aka guests |
| 16:16.11 | gnarface | you can do the openvpn thing by following the howto |
| 16:16.23 | gnarface | or you can just give out shell accounts and trust them to manage their own tunnels |
| 16:16.37 | gnarface | really depends on what level of trust you have with your users i guess |
| 16:17.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm thinkung about user_`s ( ;-D ) who don't own their own host somewhere |
| 16:17.30 | gnarface | ah, as a public service, i see |
| 16:18.15 | gnarface | hmmm. ssh tunnels are less intrusive to the client, because they probably already have ssh installed, and won't need you to issue them a custom config |
| 16:18.53 | gnarface | but on the other hand ad-hoc ssh tunnels lack a certain... management organization |
| 16:19.09 | parazyd | https://www.wireguard.io/ |
| 16:19.10 | gnarface | so the per-connection work would be more to establish each tunnel |
| 16:19.12 | gnarface | for clients |
| 16:19.30 | gnarface | what's that, parazyd? |
| 16:19.39 | parazyd | a cool vpn |
| 16:19.41 | parazyd | :) |
| 16:19.47 | gnarface | ah |
| 16:20.02 | gnarface | i like openvpn, the software. i have not tried their commercial service though. |
| 16:20.20 | gnarface | i've only used it where i've had full control over both the server and at least some of the clients |
| 16:20.40 | parazyd | yeah me neither |
| 16:22.28 | zdzichu | yeah, wireguard is nice |
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| 17:43.15 | banshi | hello all |
| 17:43.23 | banshi | i luv devuan! |
| 17:47.15 | gnarface | yay! |
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| 19:45.40 | Centurion_Dan | DocScrutinizer05: so what seems to be the problem? |
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| 19:48.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | Centurion_Dan: it *seems* to me (aka "AIUI") the amprolla forwarding doesn't work with Tor end to end, I.E. using debian(!) Tor as well |
| 19:48.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | but I'm not at all confifent I got it all right, it's pretty complex |
| 19:48.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | ...or I'm dull today |
| 19:49.30 | Centurion_Dan | That's not amprolla, that will probably nginx and/or the tor server. |
| 19:49.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2017-06-25 Sun 17:36:39] <parazyd> DocScrutinizer05: https://github.com/parazyd/amprolla/blob/master/contrib/nginx.conf |
| 19:49.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2017-06-25 Sun 17:36:43] <parazyd> so this is the solution |
| 19:49.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2017-06-25 Sun 17:37:55] <DocScrutinizer05> HAH, line 44 ff |
| 19:50.30 | Centurion_Dan | ok. I should be able to make that work. |
| 19:50.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | the *problem* been a rogue ISP that garbles user_`'s apt downloads |
| 19:51.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | since prolly adding ads or inserting a proxy or whatever, to http:// |
| 19:52.03 | Centurion_Dan | easiest way around that is to install apt-transport-https |
| 19:52.21 | Centurion_Dan | and then use https in the deb lines. |
| 19:52.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | seems https:// gets redirected by amprolla / rewrite-rules to http:// unconditionally, and Tor is a monster of its own regarding what happens on redirects |
| 19:53.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway seems highly desirable when onion would be end to end also to the debian(!) mirrors |
| 19:53.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | debian offers Tor |
| 19:53.43 | user_` | well you have nginx redirectin from https to http, which is unnecessary. parazyd config fixes the problem |
| 19:53.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | so we might support it |
| 19:53.47 | user_` | ion* |
| 19:54.06 | Centurion_Dan | of course, amprolla only serves the metadata, the packages are redirected to the devuan and debian pools. |
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| 19:54.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | that redirection includes _service_ (like http://) no? |
| 19:55.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | I mean, isn't that redirection an URL in the end? |
| 19:56.05 | user_` | let me check to be sure |
| 19:56.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | the IRL for Tor download from Debian differs massively from the 'normal' one, whether http or https |
| 19:56.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | URL even |
| 19:57.07 | user_` | i was talking only about clearnet address |
| 19:57.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | so my (maybe naive) idea was that amprolla must provide the debian onion URL |
| 19:57.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | the amprolla at large infra, that is |
| 19:58.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | or would apt do that on ots own? then I wonder how and where from it gets the onion URLs of debian |
| 19:58.38 | user_` | btw, why do you rewrite instead of proxifying? |
| 19:58.55 | user_` | in order to save bandwidth? |
| 19:59.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | bevause bandwidth |
| 19:59.02 | user_` | ok |
| 20:00.20 | Centurion_Dan | the onion url for debian seems fine, so we'd just need an extra rewrite rule for that. |
| 20:00.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 20:00.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | that was what been said |
| 20:00.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | s/said/concluded/ |
| 20:03.28 | Centurion_Dan | ok... will look into it today... got to go for a walk... BB 45 mins. |
| 20:03.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | gets headache from messing concurrently with learning Tor fringe cases like forwarding, Amprolla at large, and EdgeRouter upstream failover |
| 20:04.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | luckily I found https://community.ubnt.com/t5/EdgeMAX/802-3ad-failover-QOS-help/m-p/774660#M26890 attachment |
| 20:05.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | of anybody in here is fluent with EdgeOS, any help welcome |
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| 20:40.45 | davidl | is the Devuan system 100% free software by default? |
| 20:40.57 | davidl | i.e. including the kernel. |
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| 20:43.33 | user_` | davidl, i installed devuan today and sources.list contained 'non-free' along with 'main' records, so not sure about what non-free packages are there by default |
| 20:44.39 | davidl | ok. I don't think I saw any non-free when I used the refracta installer. |
| 20:44.55 | davidl | probably firmware-nonfree package. |
| 20:45.19 | user_` | live iso contains non-free yes and i think it's removable with 'remove-non-free....' commands |
| 20:45.27 | user_` | after install |
| 20:45.32 | user_` | command* |
| 20:47.40 | davidl | how do I install the remove-non-free program? |
| 20:49.27 | user_` | it's there by default |
| 20:50.10 | user_` | " [...] You can remove all the non-free firmware after you reboot into the new installation by running (as root or with sudo): |
| 20:50.10 | user_` | remove-non-free-firmware |
| 20:50.13 | user_` | ... " |
| 20:50.47 | davidl | doesn't show up when I tab it, but I installed from Refracta debootstrap and possibly that command doesn't show up if I don't have the firmware? |
| 20:51.15 | user_` | i think it's not applicable then |
| 20:51.30 | user_` | i think it's only applicable to the desktop-live iso |
| 20:52.12 | user_` | this would be better answered by devs |
| 20:52.25 | davidl | ok |
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| 20:53.53 | aitor | hi |
| 20:55.01 | aitor | parazyd has been working on amprolla last months |
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| 20:58.57 | bozonius | I'm looking for a backports repo for devuan -- is there such a thing and how to use it? I don't want ALL packages, just some. |
| 21:00.29 | bozonius | nvm, found it. |
| 21:01.30 | aitor | bozonius: you can build a local repository |
| 21:01.58 | bozonius | "build" -- in which sense? Build from source, or sort of make a copy? |
| 21:02.54 | ryuujin | sera |
| 21:03.05 | ryuujin | o/ |
| 21:03.56 | aitor | you can download the backports using debmirror, and build another one selecting those packages you need |
| 21:04.35 | bozonius | ok, but when you say "build" does that mean from source, as in compile, link, etc? Or do you simply mean selecting packages? |
| 21:05.11 | aitor | the packages are built |
| 21:06.00 | bozonius | ok, so I am searching the online archives for the backports. I don't see any actual packages per se, only gz files of "Contents" whatever these are... |
| 21:06.13 | aitor | you only need to build the dists and the pool folders, containing the deb/udeb packages, the soruces of the packages, the contents... |
| 21:06.23 | aitor | the sources} |
| 21:06.35 | aitor | sources* |
| 21:07.08 | bozonius | I'm still not clear. At some point in this process, I will need to build the packages myself? Or am I just copying from a repo of already built backports? |
| 21:07.12 | aitor | sorry, i'm with the US keyboard now:) |
| 21:07.17 | bozonius | (np) |
| 21:07.48 | gnarface | bozonius: english isn't his first language |
| 21:07.55 | bozonius | sure, np |
| 21:07.57 | gnarface | aitor: he just wants to use the backports repo, not mirror it |
| 21:08.00 | aitor | you'll not need to build the packages yourself, they are built |
| 21:08.27 | bozonius | gnarface, let's say there is one package I want. Where do I find it on the website for the backports? |
| 21:08.46 | aitor | he wants to use only some packages from the backports |
| 21:09.07 | gnarface | bozonius: just follow the instructions like you would for debian backports but use these sources instead: https://devuan.org/os/etc/apt/sources.list.d/devuan-stable-backports.list |
| 21:09.25 | bozonius | ah, gnarface, I am sorry but I am no debian expert... |
| 21:09.34 | bozonius | so I've never done debian backports either. |
| 21:09.41 | gnarface | https://backports.debian.org/ |
| 21:10.06 | bozonius | I've been looking at https://packages.devuan.org/devuan/dists/jessie-backports/contrib/ |
| 21:10.22 | gnarface | if you don't want ALL packages from backports, that's fine. just install what you want from there then disable them again |
| 21:10.49 | gnarface | yea the devuan web stuff isn't all complete yet |
| 21:10.51 | aitor | nope: |
| 21:10.52 | aitor | https://devuan.org/os/etc/apt/sources.list.d/devuan-stable-backports.list |
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| 21:11.23 | bozonius | thanks, aitor. I think gnarface has this. |
| 21:11.43 | bozonius | ok, so basically, the site I've been viewing is where it WILL be, just not yet. |
| 21:11.45 | bozonius | ok |
| 21:11.47 | bozonius | thanks |
| 21:11.49 | aitor | :) |
| 21:11.54 | bozonius | I'm reading the instructions now... |
| 21:11.58 | aitor | i'm doing an experiment today |
| 21:13.57 | aitor | as i explained here seeveral times, vdev doesn't work in live mode with most recent kernels |
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| 21:14.36 | aitor | i upgraded trios-amd64 from debian to devuan eithin a chroot jail and replaced eudev by vdev |
| 21:15.12 | aitor | i want to try vdev with openrc |
| 21:15.15 | bozonius | gnarface, let's say I add "deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie-backports main" to my sources file. When I go to do upgrade, I get all the updates to that repo. How can I selectively enable the repo JUST for that package? |
| 21:15.41 | gnarface | bozonius: apt-get -t jessie-backports [package name] |
| 21:15.48 | bozonius | ah! |
| 21:15.52 | bozonius | thanks, gnarface |
| 21:15.53 | aitor | within* |
| 21:16.13 | bozonius | I remember seeing something like that previously, but couldn't quite get it to work. |
| 21:16.17 | gnarface | bozonius: you may have to also specify it's dependencies from backports too, it depends |
| 21:16.29 | gnarface | varies from package to package |
| 21:16.45 | gnarface | sometimes it matters, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes they won't install at all unless you request them all specifically |
| 21:17.20 | bozonius | I get: E: Command line option 't' [from -t] is not known. |
| 21:17.21 | gnarface | just make sure you comment out the backports line in your sources file again when you're done and re-run "apt-get update" so that you don't later accidentally forget and pull in everything from backports |
| 21:17.28 | bozonius | and that's what I got previously |
| 21:17.35 | bozonius | when I was trying this |
| 21:17.44 | gnarface | that's disturbing |
| 21:17.51 | bozonius | lol |
| 21:17.54 | bozonius | a bit, yes... |
| 21:18.34 | gnarface | been mixing distros? |
| 21:18.38 | gnarface | 3rd party repos? |
| 21:18.46 | gnarface | out-dated version of apt-get? |
| 21:19.09 | gnarface | accidental insertion of whitespace characters it doesn't like? |
| 21:19.11 | aitor | gnarface, bozonius: time to bed :) |
| 21:19.12 | bozonius | I just installed this system a week or two ago |
| 21:19.17 | gnarface | later aitor |
| 21:19.21 | aitor | bye |
| 21:19.21 | bozonius | night aitor, thanks for help |
| 21:19.35 | aitor | not at all |
| 21:19.38 | bozonius | no, I haven't monkeyed with sources.list |
| 21:20.04 | bozonius | but it could still be op error. I'm new to debian/devuan |
| 21:20.09 | DPA | apt-get install -t, not apt-get -t |
| 21:20.13 | bozonius | (I'm a ******d refuge |
| 21:20.16 | gnarface | oh |
| 21:20.18 | gnarface | duh |
| 21:20.21 | bozonius | oh |
| 21:20.22 | bozonius | hahah |
| 21:20.30 | bozonius | it's ok, I missed that too |
| 21:20.35 | gnarface | my mistake bozonius it's apt-get -t jessie-backports install [package name] |
| 21:20.57 | gnarface | there always has to be an action |
| 21:21.02 | gnarface | install, remove, etc |
| 21:21.26 | bozonius | looks like my package is not available in backports... :( |
| 21:21.42 | gnarface | what package |
| 21:21.43 | gnarface | ? |
| 21:21.46 | bozonius | its the xfce4-weather-plugin. It was working until a few days ago |
| 21:21.52 | DPA | which one? |
| 21:22.30 | bozonius | a year or two ago, we went through this also, when a provider changed its API or something |
| 21:22.35 | fsmithred | bozonius, I've got one |
| 21:22.41 | fsmithred | I know the problem |
| 21:22.42 | gnarface | i see it in ceres |
| 21:22.44 | fsmithred | hang on a sec |
| 21:22.55 | *** join/#devuan AlexLikeRock (~AlexLikeR@unaffiliated/alexlikerock) |
| 21:22.58 | bozonius | sure |
| 21:23.26 | bozonius | I'll be back in a moment |
| 21:23.29 | fsmithred | 32 or 64? |
| 21:23.53 | fsmithred | ok, you choose: http://distro.ibiblio.org/refracta/files/extra_packages/ |
| 21:25.30 | fsmithred | a few days ago? Must have been awhile since you did an update/upgrade |
| 21:27.26 | *** join/#devuan dardevelin (~dardeveli@unaffiliated/dardevelin) |
| 21:31.34 | bozonius | nope, Just installed this system maybe a week or two ago |
| 21:32.08 | bozonius | amd64 |
| 21:37.43 | bozonius | thanks, fsmithred. That works. |
| 21:38.23 | bozonius | thanks gnarface also. Appreciate the constructive help (unlike some others here who are not as constructive, if at all...) |
| 21:38.39 | gnarface | no problem, i do what i can |
| 21:39.02 | bozonius | I try to help out when I can, if I really know and understand the issue |
| 21:39.13 | bozonius | WITHOUT the sarcasm... |
| 21:39.27 | bozonius | adds this channel back to his go-to list |
| 21:39.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | !#devuan backports is https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/2017-06-25/?msg=87760155&page=6 |
| 21:39.27 | infobot | DocScrutinizer05: okay |
| 21:43.58 | user_` | hum what a strange thing |
| 21:44.54 | user_` | hexchat is entering all irc networks fine except one, and when it connects it just segfaults |
| 21:46.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | xchat/hexchat has a historucal issue with charsets, some utf-8 chars make it segfailt. Though your issue could be sth comletely different |
| 21:46.46 | user_` | i have removed motd on that server (it belongs to me) |
| 21:46.54 | user_` | and it still segfaults on the connection stage |
| 21:46.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | oooh |
| 21:47.14 | user_` | even without ssl |
| 21:47.14 | user_` | Oo |
| 21:47.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | let's call it a lucky finding |
| 21:48.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | a valid bug ticket for sure, plus you have the as good as it gets testbed for spotting the bug |
| 21:48.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | my Konversation also segfaults every now and then (just yesterday) but I can't reproduce neither trace it |
| 21:49.07 | user_` | i met this issue before on linux mint (debian edition) |
| 21:49.16 | user_` | gone when passed to clear jessie |
| 21:49.21 | user_` | now on devuan jessie again |
| 21:49.30 | *** join/#devuan mwarning (~mwarning@178.63.20.183) |
| 21:49.38 | davidl | Im having issue running the "shutdown now" command properly. |
| 21:49.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm rather sure it's a lib to blame |
| 21:49.53 | user_` | yeah i can't trace it as well |
| 21:50.11 | mwarning | hi folks, I have trouble understanding the following apt message: https://pastebin.com/PJnQpXY6 |
| 21:50.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | shutdown -r now, for -Reboot, or -h for Halt |
| 21:50.25 | mwarning | maybe someone can tell me what I need to do |
| 21:51.09 | user_` | try using aptitude mwarning |
| 21:51.22 | user_` | instead of apt |
| 21:51.23 | davidl | Ill try -h |
| 21:51.54 | davidl | -h worked! |
| 21:52.01 | davidl | dunno why that's neccessary though. |
| 21:52.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | davidl: you're missing PreDepends: nvidia-installer-cleanup but it is not installable |
| 21:52.59 | bozonius | I'm noticing that recent versions of the halt command on some distros now require(!) -p to power down; never used to have to do that |
| 21:53.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry |
| 21:53.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | mwarning: ^^^ |
| 21:54.02 | mwarning | DocScrutinizer: ok |
| 21:54.15 | bozonius | I used to type just "halt" and that would halt the system. Now, sometimes I MUST use "halt -p" on certain distros in order to power the system down. |
| 21:54.20 | bozonius | otherwise, it would just hang. |
| 21:54.39 | bozonius | This new requirement just kind of showed up one day. |
| 21:54.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | bozonius: here's the explanation: |
| 21:54.50 | bozonius | Kind of unusual for *nix systems... |
| 21:54.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | saturn:~ # file /sbin/halt |
| 21:54.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | /sbin/halt: symbolic link to `/usr/bin/systemctl' |
| 21:54.55 | mwarning | DocScrutinizer: I have no idea how to solve this. I assume the problem is that I have a jessie-backports kernel. |
| 21:55.01 | bozonius | OMG! |
| 21:55.04 | bozonius | NO! |
| 21:55.10 | bozonius | holy.... |
| 21:55.16 | bozonius | headslaps himself |
| 21:55.36 | bozonius | more dung droppings from that POS |
| 21:57.05 | bozonius | Thanks for the explanation, Doc |
| 21:57.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | mwarning: that's not related to kernel, it's a problem that your set of repos doesn't (automatically) provide the (right version of) nvidia-installer-cleanup |
| 21:57.16 | mwarning | hm, ok |
| 21:57.31 | mwarning | maybe I have to wait for the next release then |
| 21:57.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | try installing it explicitly |
| 21:57.46 | mwarning | how? |
| 21:58.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | !backports |
| 21:58.02 | infobot | hmm... backports is https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/2017-06-25/?msg=87760155&page=6 |
| 21:58.02 | mwarning | nvm |
| 21:58.10 | mwarning | ah, ok |
| 21:58.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | just 30 min ago |
| 21:58.24 | bozonius | (thanks to yours truly...) |
| 21:58.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | some apt-get -t <backportrepo> install nvidia-installer-cleanup |
| 21:59.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | or you go plain vanilla and download and install the dpkg |
| 22:00.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | but *usually* the dependencies should be in same repo like the package that depends on them |
| 22:00.27 | mwarning | k |
| 22:02.11 | mwarning | this is odd https://pastebin.com/wAmyrA41 |
| 22:02.47 | mwarning | I have "deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie-backports non-free main" in /etc/apt/sources.list |
| 22:03.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | ((kernel)) actually the video driver stuff jas to match the kernel, so get that nvidia-installer-cleanup (all the nvidia stuff) from the repo you got your kernel from |
| 22:04.04 | mwarning | ack |
| 22:04.35 | mwarning | I do not know what I did, but now I get this: https://pastebin.com/px3RnbKw |
| 22:05.46 | *** join/#devuan matlock (~matlock@24.96.131.20) |
| 22:05.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | seems to say that nvidia-installer-cleanup isn't in nackports |
| 22:05.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | back* |
| 22:06.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | get it from debian repos |
| 22:06.22 | mwarning | won't it break my system? |
| 22:06.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, particularly on kernel level there's zilch difference between devuan and debian |
| 22:06.59 | mwarning | ok, thanks |
| 22:07.08 | *** join/#devuan Oldmoss (~Oldmoss@anon-46-32.vpn.ipredator.se) |
| 22:07.17 | mwarning | I will try this tomorrow |
| 22:07.21 | mwarning | gn8 O/ |
| 22:07.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | and that particular package looks like a tool only needed to build the video driver, it prolly will auto-self-deinstall after job accomplished |
| 22:08.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually guessing by the name it *is* the very particle that does that auto-deinstall for all the other stuff, so maybe you'd not even need it |
| 22:09.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | to build the driver. Only to get rid of the mess it does during building ;-) |
| 22:10.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | building video drivers is a terrible mess anyway |
| 22:10.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | always been |
| 22:10.53 | matlock | i found an old windows 10 vm backup, fired up the linux subsystem, was able to substitute in debian jessie for ubuntu, and then cleanly upgraded to devuan jessie; i'm running devuan jessie on windows 10 on devuan jessie |
| 22:14.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | LOL, niee |
| 22:14.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | nice* |
| 22:15.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | please elaborate on how to "fired up the linux subsystem" on winten |
| 22:15.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | I got that crap too now on my tablet |
| 22:15.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | never before touched it and wouldn't even know where to look for any such linux subsystem |
| 22:17.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | is it a VM? like virtualbox/vmware? or something genuinely shipped with win10? |
| 22:18.10 | matlock | you enable developer mode, then enable it in windows features, restart, launch cmd in admin mode, and install using lxrun; that downloads/installs a generic ubuntu image you can run in cmd by running bash or in ConEmu; you can switch out the linux distro in the system easily because it's based on docker, you have to install python3 for windows, and then you can use this script to download docker hub images of any os https://github.com/RoliSoft/WSL-Distrib |
| 22:18.11 | matlock | ution-Switcher |
| 22:18.19 | matlock | oops, truncated URL, here it is again: https://github.com/RoliSoft/WSL-Distribution-Switcher |
| 22:18.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | win10 has a "developer mode"? :-o |
| 22:19.07 | MinceR | i guess it's so locked down that it needs one |
| 22:19.16 | MinceR | i wonder how much they charge you for it though |
| 22:19.17 | matlock | no, it's not a VM, it's a user space layer that interprets linux kernel calls to window calls, it's more like Wine than a VM, right now only works with Linux kernel |
| 22:19.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | sounds about right, yes |
| 22:19.44 | MinceR | last time i've heard of it it couldn't even do unix domain sockets |
| 22:19.51 | MinceR | so cygwin was far more usable |
| 22:20.15 | *** join/#devuan jback (~jasper@hubble.jhq.io) |
| 22:20.51 | matlock | yes, windows has three levels of security: permissive, verified apps, and then signed store apps; to enable the linux subsystem you have to enable permissive, in upcoming Windows 10 S for cheap devices yes you will have to pay to upgrade to Pro and unlock permissive mode |
| 22:20.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | idly muses about attack vectors like typing "developer mode" into the search textbox in win10 system settings |
| 22:21.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | wait, I forgot my good ole aunt |
| 22:21.36 | MinceR | it's cute how they call it "security" |
| 22:22.18 | MinceR | the saddest part about this is that millions eat all this shit right up happily |
| 22:22.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://www.ixquick.com/do/search?q=windows10+developer+mode |
| 22:22.45 | matlock | MinceR it depends on your specific use case whether the linux subsystem or cygwin makes sense; I just wanted to prove you get devuan running there; the devuan community should maintain official docker images on the docker hub |
| 22:22.57 | MinceR | ic |
| 22:23.09 | MinceR | well, you could maintain them if you care enough :> |
| 22:23.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | ahaaa! >>This setting is available in the Settings app. To access it, head to Settings > Update & Security > For Developers and select âDeveloper modeâ.<< |
| 22:24.18 | matlock | MinceR I know, I know, I'm teaching myself C now to get more hands on with what I want in OSS |
| 22:24.25 | MinceR | :) |
| 22:24.33 | matlock | MinceR well, swift first, then c |
| 22:24.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh! will try this another day. Don't feel like touching M$ today |
| 22:24.39 | MinceR | this probably doesn't even need swift or c knowledge |
| 22:25.01 | MinceR | i'd happily touch m$ any day... with artillery. |
| 22:25.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | hehehe |
| 22:25.15 | matlock | MinceR no but I it's script based and I have really lazy scripting habits not having rigorous training in neat code |
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| 22:45.11 | AlexLikeRock | DocScrutinizer05, |
| 22:45.17 | AlexLikeRock | "Windows allows you to more easily test apps youre developing, use the Ubuntu Bash shell environment " |
| 22:45.32 | AlexLikeRock | "that mean GNU Cash Envirunment" |
| 22:45.43 | AlexLikeRock | "that mean GNU Bash Envirunment" |
| 22:45.45 | MinceR | :D |
| 22:46.06 | MinceR | cash, the m$ version of bash |
| 22:46.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | now you gave away M$' motivation: Cash ;-P |
| 22:46.46 | MinceR | they're also in it for power |
| 22:47.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | world dominion |
| 22:47.19 | AlexLikeRock | :D |
| 22:47.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | ruining the linux/unix world by growing an army of windows users who think they are unix developers |
| 22:49.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | let's hope the linux-under-windows is as little of a success story as is windows-under-linux |
| 22:50.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | can't blame M$ for offering the inverse complementary to what linux folks refused since decades to do if any avoidable |
| 22:55.58 | *** join/#devuan tarbz2 (~Thunderbi@186.23.15.16) |
| 22:55.59 | MinceR | that already happened |
| 22:56.04 | MinceR | that's why systemd exists |
| 22:59.25 | user_` | _systemd_is_evil |
| 22:59.27 | user_` | lol |
| 22:59.39 | user_` | nice nick |
| 23:00.10 | MinceR | :) |
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| 23:15.29 | *** join/#devuan mns` (b156ff05@gateway/web/freenode/ip.177.86.255.5) |
| 23:24.58 | matlock | I sometimes tell systemd users that since systemd starts before kernel they might as well be running linux on Windows to get them going |
| 23:28.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | ohnoes!!! I never before realized, but with assimilating (gummi?)boot systemd has actually raped and dominated whole kernel |
| 23:46.19 | sedrosken | what's next: systemd-kerneld |
| 23:59.43 | *** part/#devuan Oldmoss (~Oldmoss@anon-46-32.vpn.ipredator.se) |
