| 00:21.36 | *** join/#devuan infobot (ibot@rikers.org) |
| 00:21.36 | *** topic/#devuan is Recent (2017-05-25): Jessie 1.0.0 stable release http://ur1.ca/qxaa5 | https://devuan.org/ discussion channel (logged at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan - with useful 'search') | Please take off-topic conversation to #debianfork | /msg chanserv info #devuan | !listkeys #devuan <foo> | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ |
| 00:40.14 | davidl | fsmithred: the debootstrap fails during the extracting packages part :/ |
| 00:40.40 | fsmithred | what error message? |
| 00:41.15 | davidl | no error message |
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| 00:41.24 | davidl | just ends. after zlib1g |
| 00:42.02 | fsmithred | I think that's all it does. |
| 00:42.07 | davidl | Im running it as part of a script with an echo after the debootstrap command and the echo command doesn't run. |
| 00:43.44 | fsmithred | what's in your /target? |
| 00:43.55 | davidl | everything basically. |
| 00:43.58 | fsmithred | does it look like a filesystem? |
| 00:43.59 | fsmithred | ok |
| 00:44.07 | davidl | if it does finish it doesn't do so with exit0 |
| 00:45.16 | davidl | my /target is /mnt btw. |
| 00:45.28 | fsmithred | ok, it can be wherever you want |
| 00:46.00 | fsmithred | well, you may as well try it and see if it works |
| 00:46.16 | davidl | ok |
| 00:46.22 | fsmithred | chroot in and install some stuff, make a user, root password |
| 00:46.47 | fsmithred | other option is to do it again |
| 00:47.14 | fsmithred | I may have more ideas... |
| 00:48.57 | davidl | my prompt is: I have no name!@refracta:/# |
| 00:49.01 | davidl | and I can't use apt-get |
| 00:49.11 | fsmithred | hang on a sec. |
| 00:50.03 | fsmithred | try 'dpkg -l |wc -l' |
| 00:50.12 | davidl | I didn't do the same packages as were recommended. |
| 00:50.14 | davidl | ok |
| 00:50.24 | davidl | 0 |
| 00:50.36 | davidl | 0 in chroot |
| 00:50.36 | fsmithred | dpkg -l |
| 00:50.42 | fsmithred | yeah, in chroot |
| 00:50.43 | davidl | no output |
| 00:50.50 | fsmithred | ok, it didn't work |
| 00:51.21 | fsmithred | what debootstrap command did you use? |
| 00:52.01 | davidl | debootstrap --include="$PKGS" --arch amd64 jessie /mnt http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ |
| 00:52.16 | davidl | PKGS is lots of packages. |
| 00:52.26 | fsmithred | ok |
| 00:52.35 | fsmithred | maybe there was a problem with a package |
| 00:53.03 | fsmithred | I would do it without a package list, then add packages in chroot |
| 00:53.05 | davidl | it went through the retrieve and validate packages part and then started to extract a page-full of packages. |
| 00:53.12 | davidl | then just ended after zlib. |
| 00:53.31 | fsmithred | yeah, that's the last package |
| 00:53.50 | davidl | ok. So should I use the --exclude instead? |
| 00:53.54 | davidl | or just no option. |
| 00:54.07 | fsmithred | not sure if you need the exclude anymore |
| 00:54.14 | fsmithred | I don't think you do |
| 00:54.31 | davidl | Ill try without |
| 00:54.40 | fsmithred | systemd-sysv should be excluded automatically |
| 00:54.45 | davidl | should i rm -r /mnt/* first? |
| 00:55.00 | fsmithred | yeah, probably |
| 00:55.44 | davidl | then here we go |
| 00:56.45 | fsmithred | you don't need to name the mirror, either |
| 00:57.02 | davidl | alright. |
| 00:58.22 | davidl | I noticed I couldn't include yad which I think is bcs that's not in stable, but let's say I wanted to include it could I do that (e.g. by adding "now" in addition to stable) somehow? |
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| 00:59.04 | fsmithred | that sounds too complicated |
| 00:59.08 | davidl | fsmithred: same issue with the prompt and dpkg. |
| 00:59.08 | fsmithred | just add it later |
| 00:59.32 | fsmithred | if you have the deb files, you can copy them to the target system when you're not in chroot, then install with dpkg in chroot |
| 00:59.46 | davidl | ok. |
| 00:59.51 | fsmithred | what prompt? |
| 01:00.01 | fsmithred | in chroot or in the live? |
| 01:00.21 | davidl | in chroot I have: I have no name!@refracta:/# |
| 01:01.05 | davidl | I think Im gonna do a reboot and rerun things. |
| 01:01.49 | fsmithred | yeah, it should say root@refracta, and not in color |
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| 01:34.48 | davidl | fsmithred: just btw, I had to run sudo rfkill unblock wifi after the reboot to get internet. |
| 01:35.22 | davidl | fsmithred: and still the same issue with chrooting to /mnt |
| 01:35.41 | davidl | i.e. the I have no name!@refracta:/# prompt. |
| 01:36.54 | fsmithred | did you create a root password? |
| 01:37.08 | davidl | no |
| 01:37.23 | fsmithred | I think that's why |
| 01:37.50 | davidl | so running passwd root prior to chroot should solve it? |
| 01:37.54 | fsmithred | no |
| 01:38.00 | fsmithred | you have to do it inside the chroot |
| 01:38.23 | davidl | passwd: Cannot determine your user name. |
| 01:38.27 | fsmithred | and you won't see it until you log out and chroot in again |
| 01:38.28 | fsmithred | ? |
| 01:38.43 | davidl | that's what it says when I run passwd root from inside chroot /mnt |
| 01:38.46 | fsmithred | you did the debootstrap as root and the chroot as root? |
| 01:38.54 | fsmithred | just passwd |
| 01:38.58 | davidl | yes |
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| 01:44.27 | fsmithred | davidl, did you try 'passwd' instead of 'passwd root'? |
| 01:44.35 | davidl | yes |
| 01:44.36 | davidl | same output |
| 01:45.23 | davidl | Im gonna try with --include and put some packages there like login, locales, passwd etc. |
| 01:46.21 | fsmithred | login and passwd should be there by default. locales is something you would need to add. |
| 01:47.33 | davidl | yeah it says so.. |
| 01:47.49 | davidl | dunno why this is such a hassle. |
| 01:48.03 | fsmithred | neither do I |
| 01:49.13 | fsmithred | this is on btrfs? |
| 01:49.18 | davidl | yes |
| 01:49.30 | fsmithred | could that be causing a problem? |
| 01:49.40 | davidl | hard to believe. |
| 01:49.48 | davidl | but Im not an expert. |
| 01:50.15 | davidl | I have one more thing to try before going to bed for tonight. |
| 01:50.44 | fsmithred | parazyd, ^^^ anything special need to be done to debootstrap onto btrfs? |
| 01:51.21 | davidl | probably to include btrfs-tools package. |
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| 01:52.24 | fsmithred | oh, not sure how you do that, since it's only in backports |
| 01:52.59 | davidl | doesn't seem to complain about it. |
| 01:53.33 | fsmithred | you added it to --include? |
| 01:53.42 | davidl | yeah |
| 01:54.36 | fsmithred | oh, you enabled it and debootstrap is using that source.list |
| 01:54.49 | davidl | didn't enable, just added it. |
| 01:57.08 | davidl | last run for tonight, if this doesn't work I gotta go. |
| 01:57.17 | fsmithred | ok, good luck |
| 01:57.22 | davidl | thanks for all your help |
| 01:57.27 | fsmithred | yw |
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| 02:00.03 | davidl | fails again |
| 02:00.08 | davidl | well well. |
| 02:00.16 | davidl | goodnight and thanks again for your help |
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| 09:05.01 | aitor | hi |
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| 09:07.51 | aitor | linux-libre-3.16.44 has built succesfully, and i'm uploading it: |
| 09:07.52 | aitor | http://gnuinos.org/linux-libre-3.16.44/ |
| 09:12.06 | aitor | as i explained yesterday, you can verify the purity of the sources: |
| 09:12.07 | aitor | wget http://linux-libre.fsfla.org/pub/linux-libre/releases/3.16.44-gnu/linux-libre-3.16.44-gnu.tar.bz2 |
| 09:12.17 | aitor | wget http://gnuinos.org/linux-libre-3.16.44/linux_3.16.44.orig.tar.bz2 |
| 09:12.26 | aitor | md5sum linux-libre-3.16.44-gnu.tar.bz2 |
| 09:12.36 | aitor | md5sum linux_3.16.44.orig.tar.bz2 |
| 09:13.30 | aitor | and you will get the same hash: 03f481f0d4c15f5db929165c16fa93da |
| 09:14.00 | aitor | thanks to pristine-tar |
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| 09:23.58 | aitor | you now i'm going to build it for amd64 |
| 09:24.17 | aitor | you can also build it for ARM by the following way: |
| 09:24.32 | aitor | wget http://gnuinos.org/linux-libre-3.16.44/linux_3.16.44.orig.tar.bz2 |
| 09:24.41 | aitor | mkdir linux |
| 09:24.49 | aitor | cd linux |
| 09:25.01 | aitor | init an empty git repository: |
| 09:25.04 | aitor | git init |
| 09:25.16 | aitor | git config --global user.name "kabrarroka" |
| 09:25.34 | aitor | git config --global user.email "kabrarroka@gmail.com" |
| 09:25.45 | aitor | git-import-orig ../linux_3.16.44.orig.tar.bz2 |
| 09:25.57 | aitor | and now, generate the pristine-tar branch: |
| 09:26.07 | aitor | pristine-tar commit ../linux_3.16.44.orig.tar.bz2 |
| 09:26.26 | aitor | checkout the pristine-tar branch, and you'll find two files: the delta binary and the id |
| 09:26.37 | aitor | git checkout pristine-tar |
| 09:26.39 | aitor | ls -l |
| 09:26.50 | aitor | linux_3.16.44.orig.tar.bz2.delta |
| 09:26.53 | aitor | linux_3.16.44.orig.tar.bz2.delta.id |
| 09:27.24 | aitor | there is another way (cloning the git repository): |
| 09:28.13 | aitor | git clone https://... |
| 09:28.23 | aitor | cd linux-3.16.44 |
| 09:28.50 | aitor | and generate the tarball in the parent directory: |
| 09:29.14 | aitor | pristine-tar checkout ../linux-3.16.44.orig.tar.bz2 |
| 09:29.28 | aitor | after that, you can use git-buildpackage |
| 09:32.55 | aitor | actually, debian jessie uses linux-3.16.43 |
| 09:33.04 | aitor | brb:) |
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| 09:59.32 | davidl | When I run debootstap I get the error in the log "Error in GnuTLS initialization: Failed to acquire random data." |
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| 11:26.21 | armin | :) |
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| 12:20.01 | fsmithred | davidl, I just did a debootstrap install on btrfs and it worked without error. |
| 12:23.21 | davidl | fsmithred: Im very jealous |
| 12:23.30 | davidl | do you have an exact procedure? |
| 12:23.55 | davidl | and so chroot works fine too? |
| 12:24.25 | davidl | are you debootstrapping from the xfce desktop live image? |
| 12:25.19 | fsmithred | hi |
| 12:25.41 | fsmithred | boot refracta-8.3 amd64 iso on usb stick |
| 12:26.00 | davidl | same as me |
| 12:26.01 | fsmithred | uncommented jessie-backports in sources.list |
| 12:26.06 | davidl | ok. |
| 12:26.09 | fsmithred | apt-get update |
| 12:26.19 | davidl | I haven't tried uncommenting that. |
| 12:26.22 | fsmithred | apt-get install btrfs-progs btrfs-tools |
| 12:26.40 | davidl | im taking notes of this |
| 12:26.45 | fsmithred | open gparted and create a partition, formatted as btrfs |
| 12:26.57 | fsmithred | mounted that partition at /mnt |
| 12:27.07 | davidl | mine is luks also btw. |
| 12:27.12 | fsmithred | debootstrap --arch amd64 jessie /mnt |
| 12:27.15 | fsmithred | shit |
| 12:27.34 | davidl | ? |
| 12:27.45 | fsmithred | ok, so I've never done a debootstrap on encrypted part. Do you have to create /etc/cryptsetup manually? |
| 12:27.57 | fsmithred | crypttab |
| 12:28.03 | davidl | i have no idea. |
| 12:28.31 | fsmithred | ok, so when you mount the new partition, you have to open it with cryptsetup first |
| 12:28.37 | davidl | yeah. |
| 12:28.48 | fsmithred | mount /dev/mapper/whatever /mnt |
| 12:29.00 | fsmithred | do the bind-mounts |
| 12:29.01 | davidl | it's just cryptsetup luksOpen /dev/sdXY my-root && mount /dev/mapper/my-root /mnt |
| 12:29.05 | davidl | yep |
| 12:29.27 | fsmithred | hint: there's a script in /home/user/bin/bind-mounts that does them for you |
| 12:29.39 | fsmithred | bin/bind-mounts /mnt |
| 12:29.44 | fsmithred | then yes |
| 12:29.51 | fsmithred | and it drops you in chroot |
| 12:30.01 | fsmithred | and it says root@refracta |
| 12:30.37 | davidl | I did cp /etc/passwd /mnt/etc/ which gave me the root prompt but still had no PATH |
| 12:30.44 | davidl | the real issue is that no packages were really installed. |
| 12:30.52 | fsmithred | when you run debootstrap, after it says 'extracting zlib1g' it goes on to I: Installing core components |
| 12:31.05 | davidl | I went to /mnt/bin and only had like the built-in commands |
| 12:31.25 | davidl | mine never did that part. |
| 12:31.29 | fsmithred | yeah, it's not installing, and I don't know why |
| 12:32.00 | davidl | I noticed that I had the error: "Error in GnuTLS initialization: Failed to acquire random data." |
| 12:32.13 | davidl | in the /mnt/debootstrap/deboostrap.log file. |
| 12:32.18 | fsmithred | I'm going to try one more thing: install the live system itself to btrfs |
| 12:32.32 | fsmithred | yeah, I looked it up and they were talking about muttrc |
| 12:32.50 | fsmithred | pretty sure you're not getting packages from the repo by email |
| 12:32.55 | davidl | and also make node /dev/null error device already exist or something like htat. |
| 12:33.22 | davidl | ok. |
| 12:34.53 | davidl | another issue I had was with file-descriptor; I ran mapfile packages -td '' < <(cat /debootstrap/deb_paths) and it errored with /dev/fd/62 no such file. |
| 12:35.06 | davidl | (when I was in chroot). |
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| 12:37.11 | kamila | hi there, I am working on making a devuan image for opennebula |
| 12:37.25 | kamila | and I can't install cloud-utils -- the dependencies are broken |
| 12:37.28 | fsmithred | I wouldn't worry about any errors you got in chroot since you didn't have a complete system |
| 12:38.06 | fsmithred | I haven't added anything yet and mapfile is not there |
| 12:38.21 | kamila | cloud-utils is version 0.27.1 and it says Depends: util-linux (>= 2.17.2) but it is not going to be installed |
| 12:38.28 | kamila | because util-linux is too old |
| 12:38.40 | fsmithred | oh, yes it is. just no man page |
| 12:39.11 | fsmithred | kamila, I think we're on util-linux 2.25 in jessie |
| 12:39.35 | kamila | fsmithred: eh, sorry misread it |
| 12:39.44 | kamila | cloud-utils is too old for the current util-linux |
| 12:39.56 | fsmithred | 2.26.2-6+devuan1 is the actual version |
| 12:40.19 | xzgv | Hi, yesterday I installed kernel 4.9 from backports, it's running excellent! |
| 12:40.23 | kamila | # apt-cache show cloud-utils: Package: cloud-utils Version: 0.26-2 |
| 12:40.47 | fsmithred | add backports repo and install from there |
| 12:40.50 | fsmithred | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:40.51 | fsmithred | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:41.27 | kamila | util-linux says Breaks: cloud-utils (<< 0.27-1~) |
| 12:41.33 | fsmithred | add this line to sources.list... |
| 12:41.43 | fsmithred | deb http://packages.devuan.org/merged jessie-backports main |
| 12:41.51 | fsmithred | then 'apt-get update' |
| 12:41.52 | kamila | fsmithred: okay, thanks a lot! |
| 12:42.12 | fsmithred | apt-get -t jessie-backports install cloud-utils |
| 12:43.09 | fsmithred | and it's no longer necessary, but it can't hurt to comment out the backports line in sources.list after you get what you want. |
| 12:43.26 | fsmithred | and run update again |
| 12:43.30 | kamila | fsmithred: thanks a lot for your help! |
| 12:43.38 | fsmithred | yw |
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| 12:46.11 | fsmithred | davidl, there is no /debootstrap dir. It's gone after the initial install. |
| 12:47.06 | fsmithred | if you don't include or exclude any packages, when you first chroot in, 'dpkg-l | wc -l' should give you 163. |
| 12:47.49 | davidl | fsmithred: ok, thanks. Ill try this later. |
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| 16:42.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | ((console beep)) I just realized that e.g. FireFox (53.0.3 (64-Bit) generic, under KDE) actually seems to use console beep - at least for me it does yell a default beep via the mainboard piezo beeper, strange enough it concurrently does a visual beep (red flash of whole screen, for me) |
| 16:43.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | aah well, KDE: http://wstaw.org/m/2017/06/11/plasma-desktopR22054.png |
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| 17:32.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | when you're running X on e.g. tty7, then for console beep use "echo -en "\007" >/dev/tty7" |
| 17:33.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | I guess there must be smarter ways, can't find any though |
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| 17:34.49 | davidl | DocScrutinizer05: there is a beep package for Arch/Parabola Gnu/Linux |
| 17:35.04 | AlexLikeRock | GNU! |
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| 17:35.07 | davidl | it tries to make a beep with 3 methods and tries all of htem until one of them works. |
| 17:36.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, but that's exactly not what I was searching for, to distinguish genuine console beep as of 1972 from the other 'emulated' ways |
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| 17:37.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | echo -en "\007" >/dev/tty7 does a genuine plain console beep even under Konsole (see http://wstaw.org/m/2017/06/11/plasma-desktopR22054.png) etc |
| 17:38.23 | davidl | oh. I c then. |
| 17:38.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | we had the topic of "un-mutable" beeps yesterday |
| 17:39.03 | davidl | mhm |
| 17:40.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | under KDE for example it seems a plain "echo -en \007" in any app triggers the emulated KDE beep which user can configure in http://wstaw.org/m/2017/06/11/plasma-desktopR22054.png |
| 17:41.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | while echo -en "\007" >/dev/tty7 does a true genuine console beep |
| 17:42.12 | davidl | alias true_beep='echo -en "\007" >/dev/tty7' to .bashrc right away! :-D |
| 17:42.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-D |
| 17:42.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | jr@saturn:~/x> as beep |
| 17:42.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | alias beep='echo -en "\007"' |
| 17:43.12 | zdzichu | 007? license to beep |
| 17:43.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | in ~/.aliases though |
| 17:46.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, Alt+F2 (run command) in KDE does nuttin on echo -en "\007" |
| 17:47.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | echo -en "\007" >/dev/tty7 works as supposed |
| 17:48.24 | AlexLikeRock | https://audio-video.gnu.org/video/TEDxGE2014_Stallman05_LQ.webm |
| 17:48.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh wait, transforming \007 to the tty ioctl beep call is a terminal thing, not something done in STDOUT |
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| 18:08.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | that RMS talk has not a single rationale why a system must not upload a blob of data to a peripheral |
| 18:10.17 | AlexLikeRock | yes, its the START |
| 18:11.05 | AlexLikeRock | if you computer are'nt free , what begaining then ... |
| 18:12.00 | gnarface | DocScrutinizer05: stop pushing your anti-libre agenda in here. that's not what this channel is for |
| 18:12.34 | gnarface | ruin society in your own chatroom |
| 18:12.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | gnarface: stop that nonsense |
| 18:15.02 | jonadab | DocScrutinizer05: It's the difference between "I want to run open source software on all my hardware" versus "I want everything from the microcode up to be open source." |
| 18:15.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | this channel is about devuan, and devuan provides blobs where needed. |
| 18:16.31 | jonadab | RMS' position has the virtue of being _consistent_. |
| 18:16.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure |
| 18:16.43 | jonadab | Though not everyone wants to take such a hardline view. |
| 18:16.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | no doubt |
| 18:17.18 | jonadab | Personally, I prefer permissive licensing... so I'm not what you would call an orthodox Stallmanite. |
| 18:17.49 | jonadab | Though I disapprove of some things he doesn't seem to mind, like Mono. |
| 18:17.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | indeed |
| 18:19.25 | jonadab | Dunno how he feels about systemd. |
| 18:19.42 | jonadab | Or pulseaudio, which I also want to annihilate with fire. |
| 18:19.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | or the fact he ignores constantly: every flash storage has a way to reprogram it. So disapproving blackbox properties of a peripheral due to a *doumented* such way to update the embedded firmware is paradox |
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| 18:20.36 | MinceR | rms claimed that systemd is free software and didn't seem to care to look into the matter |
| 18:20.52 | MinceR | his position seems to be based on its licensing, which is insufficient to protect users' freedoms |
| 18:21.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | a question of the definition of "free" it seems |
| 18:21.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep, exactly |
| 18:21.26 | jonadab | MinceR: Entirely agreed. |
| 18:22.01 | davidl | jonadab: I think permissive licensing is an issue. It provides a platform for non-free software which has a number of issues related to society with it. |
| 18:22.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | and don't get me started about tivoization, though that's somewhat covered by GPLv3 afaik |
| 18:22.38 | jonadab | davidl: my main problem with share-alike licenses is that they're consistently incompatible with _each other_. |
| 18:22.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | after all what's the use of changing and redistributing software when you can't *run* it? |
| 18:23.10 | jonadab | And the main reason I don't think permissive licensing is a problem is because if the project has enough momentum to survive anyway, then it's going to outpace any proprietary forks. |
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| 18:23.36 | jonadab | See e.g. the BSDs, which do NOT seem to be falling technologically behind the proprietary unices. |
| 18:23.44 | davidl | jonadab: hmm. Im not so sure about that momentum argument but maybe you are right. |
| 18:23.53 | MinceR | the proprietary unixes seem to be dead |
| 18:23.59 | jonadab | MinceR: Indeed. |
| 18:24.09 | jonadab | Well, OS X isn't. |
| 18:24.09 | davidl | however, when there is a new market such as "internet of things" there is still an issue with permissive licensing. |
| 18:24.14 | jonadab | Isn't dead, I mean. |
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| 18:24.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, not entirely. In commercial I still hear like "last week we got a new HP-UX machine" or whatever |
| 18:26.08 | jonadab | Alright, but are you worried that HP-UX is getting all the new enhancements and the BSDs will fall behind and be obsolete because of it? |
| 18:26.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | lol |
| 18:26.23 | jonadab | Exactly. |
| 18:27.10 | technoid_ | i miss NeXT |
| 18:27.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | oooh me too |
| 18:27.48 | MinceR | osx is also not a unix |
| 18:27.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | umm, why? |
| 18:28.15 | MinceR | compare its UI to the unix principles and you'll see |
| 18:28.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, UI != OS |
| 18:28.35 | zdzichu | MinceR: could you be more specific? |
| 18:29.18 | MinceR | macos is designed to be a toy for people who have no idea what they're doing and have no desire to change that |
| 18:29.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually I think it's pretty hard to define the canonical UNIX userland |
| 18:29.25 | MinceR | it's monolithic, inflexible and dumbed down |
| 18:29.38 | MinceR | afaik you don't even get X on macos, except for the rootless one |
| 18:29.40 | technoid_ | We would have to first agree on what defines a unix |
| 18:31.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | is the linux on your modemrouter a unix? so... is linux always a unix? |
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| 18:31.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | or is only GNU a true unix? |
| 18:32.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>monolithic, inflexible and dumbed down<< sound like systemd ;-P |
| 18:32.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | and no surprise, since Poettering is a osx/mac fan |
| 18:33.07 | technoid_ | i am on a mac right now, but I don;t like systemd |
| 18:33.17 | technoid_ | so that is bullshit |
| 18:33.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure it is |
| 18:33.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | at least as far as "osx != unix" |
| 18:34.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | heads out. cheers! |
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| 18:49.51 | MinceR | linux is only a kernel |
| 18:50.03 | MinceR | and neither Android/Linux nor systemd/Linux are unixes |
| 18:51.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: |
| 18:51.02 | MinceR | show me one unixy command line utility crApple added to what already came with FreeBSD and Mach |
| 18:51.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | wiki to the rescue |
| 18:51.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | !wiki unix |
| 18:52.10 | jonadab | MinceR: OS X is Unix under the hood, but yes, its UI is not typical for Unix systems. |
| 18:52.56 | jonadab | Apple used to ship an X server (though it wasn't installed by default); not sure if they still do. |
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| 18:53.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | thinks there's no such thing like a "typical Unix UI" |
| 18:53.27 | jonadab | But that doesn't let you e.g. switch out the standard wm for a different one system wide. |
| 18:53.44 | MinceR | my position is that macos x is not unix, even if it was built on the ruins of a unix |
| 18:53.49 | gnarface | i vaguely recall they stopped having to ship the separate X11.app because they finally integrated X11 protocol compatibility to the stock WM |
| 18:53.56 | jonadab | DocScrutinizer05: GUI, I mean. And while there are differences, most are X11-based and have some things in common. |
| 18:54.10 | gnarface | i could be remembering wrong though |
| 18:54.12 | jonadab | Though Gnome is trying to get away from that. By being as non-customizable as possible, mainly. |
| 18:54.12 | MinceR | afaik it doesn't let me do the sorts of things i expect from a unix, and which i could do on any BSD or GNU |
| 18:54.22 | MinceR | gnome started copying macos with version 2 |
| 18:54.35 | dimkr | the #1 problem in the world is the lack of a word for a *nix OS that isn't Unix-like |
| 18:54.47 | jonadab | MinceR: Not sure about copying MacOS, but Gnome started removing features around 1.0 |
| 18:54.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | wayland |
| 18:54.50 | MinceR | that's because no such thing exists |
| 18:54.55 | MinceR | unix is unix-like by definition |
| 18:54.59 | jonadab | And have been doing so ever since. |
| 18:55.00 | MinceR | if it isn't unix-like then it isn't unix :> |
| 18:55.18 | MinceR | jonadab: what did they remove in 1.0? |
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| 18:55.59 | technoid_ | Unix is a trademark of the Open Group |
| 18:56.07 | MinceR | a trademark they keep abusing |
| 18:56.10 | technoid_ | they get to say what is unix |
| 18:56.15 | MinceR | i don't feel bound to their opinions |
| 18:56.27 | MinceR | they've whored the trademark out to anyone who was willing to pay enough |
| 18:56.36 | MinceR | while they didn't certify any free software unixes |
| 18:56.45 | MinceR | so they can go and fuck themselves |
| 18:56.59 | technoid_ | heheh, love your understanding and flexibility |
| 18:57.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-D |
| 18:57.11 | jonadab | MinceR: Isn't that about when they removed always-on-top floating panels, which were _really_ useful for placing a clock where it would consistently be just to the left of the minimize button on a maximized window? |
| 18:57.23 | MinceR | i thought that was 2.x |
| 18:57.33 | MinceR | but maybe what i thought was 1.x was actually 0.x |
| 18:57.44 | jonadab | I started using Gnome with 0.x |
| 18:57.54 | jonadab | I'm sure of that much. |
| 18:57.55 | MinceR | i started with whatever shipped with red hat 7 |
| 18:58.00 | MinceR | (not fedora, not rHELL) |
| 18:58.01 | jonadab | RH6 here. |
| 18:58.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | I stopped using Gnome at that time ;-) |
| 18:58.14 | jonadab | And then Mandrake 7... |
| 18:58.15 | MinceR | :) |
| 18:58.28 | MinceR | i switched DEs and WMs a lot back then |
| 18:58.45 | jonadab | DocScrutinizer05: I didn't stop using Gnome all at once. I stopped using it piece by piece by piece. The last piece of it that I eventually gave up on was gnome-panel. |
| 18:58.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | I only once, for like 5 days |
| 18:58.55 | MinceR | i was still learning |
| 18:59.17 | MinceR | i switched DEs or WMs for features i later found out were available everywhere |
| 18:59.45 | MinceR | i even switched from startx to display managers because i didn't know you could easily switch DEs with startx |
| 18:59.54 | jonadab | Second-to-last was gnome-terminal, when it became obvious that they weren't going to get over their "icon themes must uber alles" nonsense and reinstate profile icons; I stopped using the old custom-compiled gnome-terminal I'd been using and moved to Konsole at that point. |
| 19:00.10 | jonadab | Oh, I still use Gimp, if that counts as Gnome. Opinions are divided on that. |
| 19:00.33 | gnarface | gimp rules |
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| 19:00.48 | MinceR | i still use gnumeric |
| 19:00.55 | MinceR | and gimp |
| 19:01.06 | MinceR | gnome has betrayed gimp, though |
| 19:01.13 | gnarface | i don't know wtf is going on at the gnome project |
| 19:01.16 | gnarface | i liked gtk1 and gtk2 |
| 19:01.19 | Latrina | just out of curiosity, why have you guys so proud to have stopped using gnome? |
| 19:01.29 | MinceR | wanking on their crApple devices, probably |
| 19:01.53 | MinceR | Latrina: i'm not |
| 19:02.00 | MinceR | i'm just sad that they turned back |
| 19:02.07 | MinceR | gnome 0.x or 1.x had plenty of potential |
| 19:02.17 | MinceR | and they turned it into a wreck |
| 19:02.36 | gnarface | Latrina: we're not proud of it, we're angry at gnome |
| 19:02.41 | Latrina | uhm, well gnome-shell works well to me |
| 19:02.53 | MinceR | they even let to pick your wm with gnome control center |
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| 19:03.07 | Latrina | get dash to panel and you have a pretty standard desktop environment |
| 19:03.29 | jonadab | Latrina: Pride is irrelevant, but Gnome isn't _usable_ any more. I don't know anyone who still uses it. |
| 19:03.42 | Latrina | I see |
| 19:03.52 | jonadab | And even if someone still does, the Gnome team will find the feature they use it for and remove that feature. |
| 19:04.26 | jonadab | And every other feature. |
| 19:04.38 | MinceR | Latrina: what's worse, gnome depends on systemd and needs to be patched to fix that |
| 19:04.56 | Latrina | the only thing I could think I could be angry at them is for having stuffed systemd alongside with so much linuxysm |
| 19:04.58 | Latrina | s |
| 19:05.06 | MinceR | i find this sort of trickery to force systemd on users infuriating. |
| 19:05.32 | Latrina | I agree on that, reason why I will go gentoo very soon |
| 19:06.25 | Latrina | since from what I can read its pretty safe to assume Gnome will never make to devuan |
| 19:09.00 | Latrina | oh btw, didn't KDE plasma implemented a lot of systemd code as well? |
| 19:09.15 | MinceR | indeed |
| 19:09.24 | MinceR | though people keep telling me it doesn't depend on systemd, so |
| 19:09.26 | MinceR | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
| 19:09.33 | Latrina | so what would differentiate KDE from gnome at this point? |
| 19:09.42 | MinceR | the name and the logo |
| 19:09.48 | MinceR | KDE is copying gnome, gnome is copying macos |
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| 19:10.07 | Latrina | makes kind of sense |
| 19:10.20 | MinceR | you could also ask what will differentiate the systemd/Linux distributions from each other |
| 19:10.31 | MinceR | especially once poettering decides to "standardize" package management :> |
| 19:10.41 | Latrina | but thats all you get today if you want a modern DE |
| 19:10.59 | MinceR | i don't want a "modern" anything anymore |
| 19:11.20 | Latrina | you may not, but plenty of people out there still do |
| 19:11.23 | MinceR | "modern" is the way of poettering, microsoft and apple |
| 19:11.25 | MinceR | sucks to be them |
| 19:11.35 | Latrina | right |
| 19:11.58 | MinceR | i suspect that just as they realized that windows didn't work for them, they'll eventually realize that lendows doesn't work for them either |
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| 19:13.13 | Latrina | you do know you are talking nonsense do you? |
| 19:13.37 | Latrina | anyways, I had my answer, I am out of this convo |
| 19:13.52 | MinceR | [citation needed] |
| 19:13.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | ((<MinceR> KDE is copying gnome)) wut? well maybe you're right - nowadays |
| 19:14.13 | MinceR | DocScrutinizer05: gnome went full systemd, then kde announced they will too |
| 19:14.38 | MinceR | and like gnome with 2.x (or 1.x), kde gave up the right principles when they started 4.x |
| 19:15.39 | jonadab | MinceR: I'd already given up on Gnome before systemd happened, though. |
| 19:15.48 | jonadab | Gnome was completely unusable in wheezy. |
| 19:15.55 | MinceR | so have i |
| 19:15.56 | Latrina | like I said, I you are totally right on the systemd part |
| 19:16.14 | Latrina | and its full of linuxsysms as I said earlier |
| 19:16.42 | Latrina | which is that I hate most after all, since it makes it harder to fully port it to non linux distro |
| 19:16.47 | Latrina | say, BSD?---- |
| 19:17.16 | Latrina | and I generally dont use linux not even if I am paid |
| 19:17.29 | Latrina | oh well, I do if I am paid the right amount |
| 19:17.43 | Latrina | I can deploy shit if you are willing to pay for it |
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| 19:21.23 | AlexLikeRock | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:28.04 | technoid_ | Latrina: I will admin Exchange for the right money. |
| 19:28.23 | technoid_ | but it costs extra for me to complain the whole time. |
| 19:29.10 | technoid_ | for me not to complain the whole time... |
| 19:29.14 | technoid_ | i need to learn to type |
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| 19:54.04 | Latrina | technoid_, I also need to fake it |
| 19:54.13 | Latrina | but I am honestly not good at it |
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| 20:41.54 | lupin3rd | hi. where can i download devuan ascii iso if i want to test ? |
| 20:45.06 | fsmithred | I don't think there are any ascii isos yet |
| 20:45.23 | enyc | what is the status of ascii now? what blockers are there to it over jessie? |
| 20:45.53 | fsmithred | rsyslog, dbus, gconf2 |
| 20:46.02 | fsmithred | I think those are the main ones |
| 20:47.59 | fsmithred | I've got a couple of ascii systems running. You can upgrade or do a debootstrap install. The more minimal the system, the less likely you will have any problems. |
| 20:49.45 | enyc | i see i see |
| 20:49.56 | fsmithred | I predict there will be something in a few weeks. |
| 20:58.35 | lupin3rd | thank you |
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| 21:36.52 | *** join/#devuan greenjeans (~greenjean@45.53.139.135) |
| 21:38.50 | greenjeans | squashing.... |
| 21:39.26 | fsmithred | what flavor today? |
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| 21:43.25 | gnu_srs1 | fsmithred: Did you find eudev? |
| 21:46.07 | *** join/#devuan Guest (~Guest@83.220.238.84) |
| 21:46.16 | fsmithred | no |
| 21:46.26 | fsmithred | do I need to ask for access? |
| 21:46.32 | *** part/#devuan Guest (~Guest@83.220.238.84) |
| 21:50.31 | gnu_srs1 | I made it globally available. |
| 21:51.06 | gnu_srs1 | globally->public |
| 21:51.19 | fsmithred | I can't get there |
| 21:51.25 | fsmithred | I am logged in |
| 21:52.04 | gnu_srs1 | I added: Allow users to request access |
| 21:52.45 | fsmithred | ok, I made a request |
| 21:52.51 | greenjeans | squashing mate maximal currently |
| 21:53.39 | greenjeans | and trying to figure out how to hack obmenu-generator so it will do tooltips when you hover over menu icons |
| 21:56.24 | gnu_srs1 | parazyd: Any news on your review of eudev 220:3.2.2-devuan2? |
| 21:57.34 | gnu_srs1 | fsmithred: Access granted |
| 21:57.41 | fsmithred | thanks |
| 22:17.06 | *** join/#devuan aitor (~aitor@171.85-84-183.dynamic.clientes.euskaltel.es) |
| 22:19.26 | aitor | hi |
| 22:19.58 | Centurion_Dan | o/ |
| 22:20.12 | aitor | \o |
| 22:22.10 | MinceR | \o/ |
| 22:22.56 | aitor | the repository of greenjeans is empty: |
| 22:22.57 | aitor | http://www.mrgreenjeans.net/linux/vuudo/ |
| 22:23.21 | greenjeans | hi aitor |
| 22:23.29 | greenjeans | yeah I pulled everything for now |
| 22:23.50 | greenjeans | already have new versions of openbox and mate mini's ready to upload |
| 22:23.52 | aitor | hi |
| 22:24.03 | aitor | ok |
| 22:24.03 | gnu_srs1 | fsmithred: I can also try to push the sysvinit branch (2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2) (until built to acsii-proposed) to enable installation of openrc if you are interested. |
| 22:24.18 | fsmithred | not yet, thanks |
| 22:25.02 | greenjeans | yahoo/aabaco web hosting ftp speed has shrank to about 16 kiB/s, I can't get anything uploaded, a full size iso of 600-700 mb would take me 10 hours |
| 22:25.22 | greenjeans | so nothing is going up anywhere until I find some decent web-hosting |
| 22:26.35 | greenjeans | an hour arguing with yahoo, here's their whole attitude: use windoze and cyberduck or we can't help you |
| 22:26.49 | matlock | did everyone see this: https://twitter.com/ParrotSec/status/873567872831942657 |
| 22:26.58 | matlock | "Our release team is evaluating a possible migration of our project from debian to devuan." |
| 22:27.33 | matlock | today the founder of parrot security posted this: "our users seem to love our proposal to migrate from debian to devuan " https://twitter.com/palinurosec/status/873970637324390400 |
| 22:27.42 | fsmithred | gnu_srs1, is there an easy way to get the build deps? |
| 22:29.37 | gnu_srs1 | apt-get build-dep eudev |
| 22:29.52 | fsmithred | unable to find a source package for eudev |
| 22:30.09 | fsmithred | I have ascii and experimental enabled |
| 22:30.11 | gnu_srs1 | But that would probably try to install systemd stuff. |
| 22:30.22 | fsmithred | it would not succeed |
| 22:30.32 | aitor | trios uses eudev |
| 22:30.41 | gnu_srs1 | Do dpkg-buildpackage |
| 22:30.48 | fsmithred | aitor, can you find any remnants of trios? |
| 22:30.59 | gnu_srs1 | that will tell you missing packages |
| 22:31.26 | fsmithred | yeah, half the list |
| 22:31.26 | gnu_srs1 | and install them manually :) |
| 22:31.32 | fsmithred | ok, thanks |
| 22:32.03 | aitor | https://github.com/trios-linux |
| 22:32.41 | aitor | https://github.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=eudev&type= |
| 22:32.48 | gnu_srs1 | gbp buildpackage should work too creating a source package. Dunno about dependencies though. |
| 22:33.15 | gnu_srs1 | I'm new to gbp, but know more about dpkg-buildpackge |
| 22:33.24 | fsmithred | aitor, no activity there in a year, and the forum is gone. |
| 22:33.45 | greenjeans | aitor: did you ever build that Libre kernel 3.16? |
| 22:33.46 | AlexLikeRock | hi aitor |
| 22:33.48 | AlexLikeRock | o/ |
| 22:34.23 | aitor | the latest commit is 8 days ago |
| 22:34.45 | aitor | hi AlexLikeRock :) |
| 22:34.53 | AlexLikeRock | :) |
| 22:36.00 | gnu_srs1 | fsmithred: Just to be sure of build dependencies, look at debian/control ;) |
| 22:36.00 | fsmithred | on eudev or trios? |
| 22:36.15 | fsmithred | yeah, I looked and immediately looked away |
| 22:36.15 | gnu_srs1 | eudev |
| 22:36.24 | gnu_srs1 | git repo |
| 22:36.27 | aitor | greenjeans: http://gnuinos.org/linux-libre-3.16.44/ |
| 22:36.37 | fsmithred | oh, I was asking aitor about where there was a commit 8 days ago |
| 22:37.13 | gnu_srs1 | sorry for the noise :D |
| 22:37.13 | aitor | https://github.com/search?q=eudev&type=Commits&utf8=%E2%9C%93 |
| 22:37.36 | fsmithred | https://sourceforge.net/projects/opensourcesrbija-trios/ |
| 22:37.42 | fsmithred | no files at sf |
| 22:38.10 | fsmithred | I think trios no longer exists |
| 22:38.59 | gnu_srs1 | time for bed, reading logs. Good luck :) |
| 22:39.21 | aitor | me too |
| 22:39.27 | aitor | bye :) |
| 22:39.33 | greenjeans | bye |
| 22:39.47 | fsmithred | bye |
| 22:40.14 | fsmithred | it's building |
| 22:41.00 | greenjeans | packages all say i386 aitor |
| 22:41.00 | aitor | green jeans is a mexican jazz singer, isn't it? |
| 22:41.26 | greenjeans | is there an amd64 kernel I can use? |
| 22:42.06 | aitor | tomorrow :) |
| 22:42.20 | greenjeans | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Brannum |
| 22:42.31 | greenjeans | not really jazz |
| 22:42.34 | greenjeans | ;) |
| 22:43.04 | aitor | ok:) |
| 22:44.25 | greenjeans | go to bed now |
| 22:44.35 | greenjeans | lol |
| 22:45.18 | greenjeans | i need some perl, anybody good with perl round hyar? |
| 22:46.49 | aitor | yes, joey hess: |
| 22:46.51 | aitor | https://joeyh.name/blog/entry/generating_pristine_tarballs_from_git_repositories/ |
| 22:47.31 | aitor | bye:) |
| 22:49.07 | fsmithred | greenjeans, this is jazz - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkZmhnJU3TU |
| 22:49.17 | fsmithred | and I'm bad with perl |
| 22:49.48 | fsmithred | cool, I have eudev debs |
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| 22:52.18 | greenjeans | nice fsr! Neat bit of nostalgia there |
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| 22:53.21 | greenjeans | okay I gotta run, but as long as we're throwing up some youtube links/music references, here's what I was listening to on my way into town today, enjoY! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZjJdc7xRWU |
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| 23:07.42 | *** join/#devuan dell (~dell@ool-457ee62d.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 23:07.43 | dell | hi |
| 23:08.51 | dell2 | grsecurity nolonger distributes any patches unless you pay 17k and threatens you with termination of patch recieval if you "leak" the patch |
| 23:09.29 | dell2 | even though they are a wholly derivative work, which cannot stand alone, based on the linux kernel |
| 23:10.01 | dell2 | Devuan, will you step up to the plate and henceforth maintain the last public release? |
| 23:10.43 | dell2 | (also could you do the same for other abandoned non-systemd linux security softwares such as bastille hardening script) |
| 23:12.10 | dell2 | Here is a quick rundown: https://soylentnews.org/submit.pl?op=viewsub&subid=20675¬e=&title=GRSecurity+goes+full+commercial%2C+no+more+free+testing+patches%2C+threatens+programmer+trying+to+port. |
| 23:12.14 | LeoTh3o | afaik it's the stable version of the patch that is no longer available for free |
| 23:12.22 | dell2 | LeoTh3o: you are incorrect |
| 23:12.31 | dell2 | they pulled the testing too, a month ago |
| 23:12.33 | dell2 | https://soylentnews.org/submit.pl?op=viewsub&subid=20675¬e=&title=GRSecurity+goes+full+commercial%2C+no+more+free+testing+patches%2C+threatens+programmer+trying+to+port. |
| 23:12.37 | dell2 | read |
| 23:12.45 | dell2 | >"Don't worry about it, there's nothing for a "grateful" user like yourself |
| 23:12.45 | dell2 | >to download anymore. Boy, if I had more "grateful" users like yourself |
| 23:12.45 | dell2 | >obsessed with harrassing us on Twitter, Reddit, and IRC so that they |
| 23:12.45 | dell2 | >can go around and paint themselves as some kind of victim, I wouldn't |
| 23:12.45 | dell2 | >know what to do with myself. |
| 23:12.48 | dell2 | > |
| 23:12.50 | dell2 | >-Brad" |
| 23:13.01 | dell2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:13.24 | dell2 | So now they are a company that has created a derivative work of the linux kernel |
| 23:13.43 | dell2 | they do not publically distribute it but require you to enter a contract with them |
| 23:14.11 | dell2 | if you use your rights that the original linux rights holders gave to them and you and redistribute the derivative work |
| 23:14.22 | LeoTh3o | at the time the stable version was terminated, I don't recall having heard of legal troubles. IANAL, so I don't take judgement on it |
| 23:14.25 | dell2 | they retaliate by no longer doing business with you |
| 23:14.43 | dell2 | LeoTh3o: I am a lawyer. |
| 23:16.10 | dell2 | They frustrate the purpose of the agreement between them and the original rightsholders |
| 23:16.55 | dell2 | They have concocted a transparent scheme to add additional terms to the agreement. |
| 23:17.28 | dell2 | In reality they have nullified the grant of allowance of furthur distribution that the original rightsholders have given. |
| 23:17.45 | dell2 | LeoTh3o: Don't you think a court would notice this? |
| 23:17.51 | phogg | dell2: they've done nothing that violates the GPL |
| 23:18.03 | dell2 | phogg: I AM a Lawyer and YES they have |
| 23:18.18 | dell2 | phogg: the Law is NOT a genie |
| 23:18.26 | phogg | dell2: Name one thing. |
| 23:18.38 | dell2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:18.52 | dell2 | I allready said t. |
| 23:19.02 | dell2 | but you have no clue what that means. |
| 23:19.22 | phogg | dell2: Sounds like anyone who wants to can pay, receive the code, publish and then never receive any more code. |
| 23:19.36 | dell2 | yes that is called RETALLIATION |
| 23:19.40 | dell2 | don't you understand |
| 23:19.48 | dell2 | for the record I ___AM___ a lawyer |
| 23:19.51 | phogg | dell2: I understand that the GPL permits you to do this. |
| 23:19.56 | dell2 | NO IT DOES NOT |
| 23:20.05 | phogg | dell2: cite the part that does not, please |
| 23:20.08 | dell2 | also IT is not the only thing at work here |
| 23:20.29 | dell2 | phogg: the GPL is a one page document |
| 23:20.36 | phogg | dell2: I am very well aware. |
| 23:20.52 | dell2 | phogg: do you, as a lay person, who is NOT a lawer understand that it is NOT a completely integrated document? |
| 23:20.58 | dell2 | yes or no will suffice |
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| 23:21.16 | dell2 | or do you not know what any of that means? |
| 23:21.23 | dell2 | tap tap tap |
| 23:21.25 | LeoTh3o | dell2: you want to take legal action, you're in a better position than most people to do so |
| 23:21.25 | phogg | dell2: I don't understand what you mean by "completely integrated" and I hesitate to claim to understand what you mean by "document." |
| 23:21.40 | dell2 | phogg: ok it's fairly simple |
| 23:21.55 | dell2 | you know those 100 page contracts you sign |
| 23:22.08 | LeoTh3o | I don't like the attitude, and as a non-native speaker, I don't feel qualified in determining whether there has been an infringement or not. I haven't seen an issue raised significantly |
| 23:22.21 | dell2 | they include definition and what to do in pretty much any likely scenario |
| 23:22.31 | dell2 | they're (probably) completely integrated |
| 23:22.46 | dell2 | the court can look in the document and find out the intention of the parties fully |
| 23:22.51 | dell2 | they spelled it all out. |
| 23:22.57 | dell2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:23.08 | dell2 | Now with the gpl, we have a license grant |
| 23:23.22 | dell2 | and it seems that the owner of the copyright |
| 23:23.58 | dell2 | wishes to allow others to modify and redistribute the work, and derivative works, as long as others are able to inturn do the same thing |
| 23:24.03 | dell2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:24.13 | dell2 | That appears to be the intent of the party |
| 23:24.19 | dell2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:24.50 | dell2 | But it does not mention what happens when someone violates that intent, or trys to curtail those rights for people down the chain |
| 23:25.09 | dell2 | Is it just ok? Totally a no no? |
| 23:25.21 | dell2 | GPL v2 doesn't dwell on such things too much |
| 23:25.25 | phogg | dell2: They're under no obligation to distribute. Whether a contract they require you to sign agreeing not to distribute is binding is debatable and a matter for the courts. I say the GPL wins that fight, but the outcome is hard to prdict. |
| 23:25.30 | phogg | predict* |
| 23:25.31 | dell2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:25.44 | dell2 | phogg: GPL is not a party to the suit |
| 23:25.48 | dell2 | the rightsholders are |
| 23:25.53 | dell2 | Linux Developers |
| 23:26.34 | phogg | dell2: The GPL is granting grsec the rights to distribute which another contract then attempts to restrict. Yes? So it's GPL rights (copyright license) vs. that contract. |
| 23:26.50 | dell2 | is it their intent that additional terms outside of the GPL may be added regarding the distribution of Derivative works based on the Linux Kernel? |
| 23:26.58 | phogg | Certainly not |
| 23:27.05 | dell2 | is that the intent of the rightsholders to the Linux kernel |
| 23:27.08 | dell2 | no, correct |
| 23:27.13 | dell2 | we assume anyway |
| 23:27.25 | phogg | It seems pretty clear from public statements and from the license. |
| 23:27.36 | dell2 | we would have to have them testify |
| 23:28.05 | phogg | Yes yes. It would come down to a court decision. |
| 23:28.06 | dell2 | so the court can know, the license somewhat... short |
| 23:28.40 | dell2 | so the reality here is that GRSecurity is in EFFECT adding an ADDITIONAL clause to the derivative work |
| 23:28.47 | dell2 | "No redistribution" |
| 23:29.08 | phogg | I predict grsec will not take persons who redistribute the patches to court and this will never be tested. For them the risks are too high. |
| 23:29.17 | dell2 | by their implicit or explicit threat of end of biz relationship |
| 23:29.30 | phogg | ending business relationships is within their rights |
| 23:29.35 | phogg | they just don't give you more patches later |
| 23:29.36 | dell2 | no it is not |
| 23:29.39 | dell2 | incorrect |
| 23:29.41 | phogg | How not? |
| 23:29.49 | dell2 | because what it is |
| 23:29.50 | phogg | I can't be compelled to stay in business with someone I don't like |
| 23:30.04 | dell2 | because of WHY you are ending the relationship |
| 23:30.17 | dell2 | but also because of the threat |
| 23:30.24 | dell2 | even if you NEVER followed through |
| 23:30.43 | dell2 | that threat is an additional term contrary to the intent of the Linux rightsholders |
| 23:30.53 | phogg | dell2: I very much doubt the basis of that argument in law but I am not prepared to argue with you about it. Take it before a court and I'll cheer if you win. |
| 23:30.55 | dell2 | the court can look at the effect: |
| 23:31.17 | dell2 | there is a threat made, and the effect is that no one dare redistribute |
| 23:32.11 | dell2 | so the court can say... you know... hmmm.... this really seeeeeeemmmmsss... you know it really has the smell .... of a restraint added that is completely orthognal to the stated intent of the original rightsholders to this intellectual property... |
| 23:32.20 | phogg | I understand your argument I just don't think that it is winnable. |
| 23:32.24 | phogg | so you can stop any time |
| 23:32.36 | dell2 | why do you think that |
| 23:32.58 | dell2 | courts look to the reality of the situation, not just what one imagines. |
| 23:33.21 | phogg | If I play out the logical consequences of what you're saying being legal it results in a horrific society. I hope that no law allows it. |
| 23:33.42 | phogg | I also don't recall hearing of a law that does |
| 23:33.44 | dell2 | If you add an additional term you lose your right to redistribute, to MODIFY, to do anything with the linux kernel. |
| 23:33.59 | dell2 | GRSecurity is in effect adding an additional term. |
| 23:34.08 | dell2 | It's quite simple. |
| 23:34.21 | phogg | If I sell you an apple but say "I won't sell you another apple if you give this one away" and then you do and then I refuse to sell an apple to you I don't think a court can compel me to do so. |
| 23:34.25 | dell2 | they are violating the intent of the agreement. |
| 23:34.35 | dell2 | phogg: how about this: |
| 23:35.09 | phogg | dell2: it's easy: Each time grsec makes a new patch spin up a shell corp., give them 17k, publish the patch and then disband the corp. |
| 23:35.54 | dell2 | If bob sells me the plans to a building and says that I may use and modify those plans and then sell that derivative work to 3rd parties, but that the same right must be granted to those 3rd parties aswell, ad-infinum... |
| 23:36.23 | dell2 | and I buy the plans, modify them, and then make it clear to the 3rd parties that they may not redistribute them |
| 23:36.35 | dell2 | by whatever scheme I think can hold them to that |
| 23:36.55 | dell2 | I'm violating the origial licensing agreement's intent. |
| 23:37.15 | phogg | A court MAY decide that the contract stating that I cannot re-distribute the plans is void, but it CANNOT say that you can't refuse to sell more plans to me knowing that I am likely to redistribute them. |
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| 23:37.36 | dell2 | phogg: the court can rule that you violated the original agreement |
| 23:37.49 | dell2 | and recind you license grant in the first place |
| 23:37.52 | phogg | dell2: and in that case the contract forbidding re-distribution is not valid |
| 23:38.03 | dell2 | disallowing you from continuing your biz at all |
| 23:38.10 | phogg | that's also possible |
| 23:38.21 | dell2 | (unless you can come to some future agreement with the linux rightsholders again) |
| 23:38.28 | dell2 | yes, that's what happens if one wins |
| 23:38.42 | phogg | dell2: it's actually quite unclear what has to happen under the gpl2 to re-obtain rights once lost |
| 23:38.50 | dell2 | Brad Spengler etc don't get to even modify linux in the comfort of their own home anymore. |
| 23:39.03 | dell2 | phogg: you have to understand something |
| 23:39.12 | dell2 | you are not dealing with "The GPL" |
| 23:39.16 | dell2 | you are dealing with: |
| 23:39.19 | dell2 | Linus |
| 23:39.23 | dell2 | RedHat |
| 23:39.24 | dell2 | Intel |
| 23:39.26 | dell2 | IBM |
| 23:39.27 | phogg | dell2: linus et al |
| 23:39.28 | dell2 | etc |
| 23:40.06 | phogg | dell2: yes, but given that the GPL is still there granting anyone rights it can be "re-activated" to permit access to the code again. It's just not settled law what that looks like. |
| 23:40.17 | dell2 | so the agreement between you and them could be diffrent between you and Marsellis the video game programmer |
| 23:40.22 | dell2 | phogg: nooooo |
| 23:40.24 | dell2 | noo |
| 23:40.26 | dell2 | you don't get it |
| 23:40.32 | dell2 | the GPL is NOT granting you rights |
| 23:40.36 | dell2 | Linus etc are |
| 23:41.04 | dell2 | you cannot just reactivate after you violated, had your grant pulled in the court etc. |
| 23:41.07 | phogg | dell2: by using the language of the GPL, which they do not stop doing if a specific violator loses access granted by the language of the GPL |
| 23:41.14 | dell2 | you do not get it |
| 23:41.25 | dell2 | the GPL is not a party to the action or agreement |
| 23:41.30 | phogg | dell2: I know you can't, but it's clear that you could obtain a new license *somehow*, right? |
| 23:41.47 | phogg | dell2: and if that new license were *also* the GPL... |
| 23:41.48 | dell2 | the GPL is simply the language that Linus has put out as his grant of permission. |
| 23:41.51 | dell2 | no |
| 23:42.03 | dell2 | once Linus has recinded your grant to HIS property |
| 23:42.11 | dell2 | without his permission, you do not get it back |
| 23:42.26 | phogg | dell2: I know! But WITH his permission you can |
| 23:42.36 | dell2 | you'd have to get it personally |
| 23:42.48 | comradekingu | linus permission does not change the premise |
| 23:42.50 | phogg | dell2: so you CAN get a new license from him (and everyone) and that license can be the GPL |
| 23:42.55 | phogg | dell2: this is "reactivating" the GPL |
| 23:43.08 | dell2 | no a court would likely NOT find it "reactivates" |
| 23:43.19 | phogg | dell2: no court need be involved. |
| 23:43.24 | dell2 | yes it does |
| 23:43.30 | dell2 | that's where the Law happens |
| 23:43.38 | phogg | dell2: why? No court was involved in the original license grant |
| 23:43.53 | dell2 | sure, but a court is involved in the revocation |
| 23:43.58 | dell2 | or the finding of infringement |
| 23:44.04 | phogg | dell2: only because there is a dispute |
| 23:44.31 | dell2 | after that, the court knows that Brad Spengler violated the license grant given to him by 1000 entities, and now he has thus lost permission |
| 23:44.33 | phogg | you don't need a judge when all parties agree |
| 23:44.44 | phogg | nothing left to judge |
| 23:44.45 | dell2 | we are talking about a dispute |
| 23:44.55 | dell2 | phogg: are you a lawyer? |
| 23:45.03 | phogg | dell2: we are talking about GPL reactivation at a later time and what is involved in making that happen |
| 23:45.07 | phogg | dell2: no |
| 23:45.07 | dell2 | no we are not |
| 23:45.13 | dell2 | there is no reactivation |
| 23:45.21 | phogg | dell2: I don't know what you think we're talking about, but that's what I was talking about. |
| 23:45.28 | dell2 | there is not GPL being a party to the suit |
| 23:45.35 | phogg | dell2: Nobody said there was |
| 23:45.36 | dell2 | GPL isn't a person nor an entity |
| 23:45.40 | dell2 | you are suggesting it |
| 23:45.41 | phogg | dell2: nobody said it was |
| 23:46.08 | phogg | dell2: I am saying that *after revocation* of a license a party may *obtain a new license*, and both licenses can have the same text! |
| 23:46.09 | golinux | This is the #devuan list . A better place to discuss this might be #debianfork |
| 23:46.12 | dell2 | the way you are arguing indicated you not understanding where the power to grant license lies |
| 23:46.19 | dell2 | No phogg |
| 23:46.24 | phogg | golinux: I completely agree. |
| 23:46.39 | dell2 | the text does not magically grant you permission after it has been revoked |
| 23:46.45 | dell2 | license comes from the owner |
| 23:46.58 | golinux | dell2: knock, knoch |
| 23:46.58 | golinux | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:47.00 | dell2 | he says you can use under these conditions |
| 23:47.10 | dell2 | golinux: go fuck yourself, I am not obeying you |
| 23:47.26 | dell2 | the court then finds you violated the license grant |
| 23:47.31 | dell2 | permission is recinded |
| 23:47.41 | fsmithred | please continue to shit on our customs |
| 23:47.52 | dell2 | then you go and violate the courts decision |
| 23:48.02 | dell2 | and then the court finds you in contempt of their ruling |
| 23:48.24 | golinux | buZz: ^^^ |
| 23:48.24 | dell2 | and you point to the GPL saying the document magically re-ups the permission that was recinded for your violation. |
| 23:48.34 | dell2 | I don't think that argument would be sucessful. |
| 23:48.51 | dell2 | but what do I know |
| 23:48.53 | phogg | I hope real lawyers have better reading comprehension... |
| 23:49.10 | dell2 | I am a lawyer and now you just libeled me |
| 23:49.39 | dell2 | so perhaps I should sue you for it. |
| 23:50.01 | furrywolf | lol |
| 23:50.07 | dell2 | anyway golinux, buZz, etc: maintain grsecurity fork. |
| 23:50.18 | dell2 | furrywolf: got something to say? |
| 23:50.25 | fsmithred | you've been asked to take this conversation to the appropriate channel, and you responded with rudeness. What part of that does not make you asshole? |
| 23:50.28 | Latrina | dell2, are you one of those NYC expensive Stallman's lawyer? |
| 23:50.39 | furrywolf | yes, I do. you're not a lawyer. we're not going to fall for that. If you were, your attitude would have gotten you disbarred a long time ago. |
| 23:50.55 | golinux | probably not a lawyer at all |
| 23:51.00 | Latrina | jaja |
| 23:51.04 | furrywolf | if by some miracle you are a lawyer and have not been disbarred, maybe we can work on that. |
| 23:51.13 | Latrina | +1 |
| 23:51.13 | dell2 | now threats. |
| 23:51.33 | Latrina | no its a right, rather than a threat |
| 23:51.39 | dell2 | touch me in real life, I'll make sure to touch you back. |
| 23:51.40 | Latrina | and if you are a lawyer you sknow now it |
| 23:51.49 | dell2 | Latrina: |
| 23:51.50 | dell2 | touch me in real life, I'll make sure to touch you back. |
| 23:51.55 | Latrina | you dont wanna say that to an Italian do you? |
| 23:52.01 | dell2 | understand? |
| 23:52.03 | dell2 | Latrina: |
| 23:52.04 | dell2 | touch me in real life, I'll make sure to touch you back. |
| 23:52.11 | furrywolf | also, any lawyer would have known the proper response is "go fuck yourself, your honor", as golinux is going to be the judge of whether you can continue. |
| 23:52.12 | fsmithred | please go away |
| 23:52.14 | dell2 | do you comprehend |
| 23:52.25 | *** mode/#devuan [+o buZz] by ChanServ |
| 23:52.25 | dell2 | touch me in real life, I'll make sure to touch you back. |
| 23:52.29 | *** mode/#devuan [+q dell2!*@*] by buZz |
| 23:52.39 | fsmithred | thank you buZz |
| 23:52.40 | buZz | ssh |
| 23:52.48 | *** mode/#devuan [-o buZz] by ChanServ |
| 23:52.56 | Latrina | dude, come here to Mexico Ill fucking bury you alive in the Chihuaua desert |
| 23:54.33 | Latrina | ahh I needed a good old break, now back to work |
| 23:54.39 | *** part/#devuan dell2 (~dell@ool-457ee62d.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 23:54.51 | AlexLikeRock | hi Latrina , |
| 23:54.54 | Latrina | hey |
| 23:54.56 | AlexLikeRock | tambien soy de mexico |
| 23:55.03 | Latrina | I am Italian |
| 23:55.07 | Latrina | born and raised |
| 23:55.09 | AlexLikeRock | ho! |
| 23:55.11 | Latrina | but I live in mexico |
| 23:55.16 | AlexLikeRock | LOL |
| 23:55.41 | Latrina | not for long though, hopefully |
| 23:55.53 | furrywolf | the chef at one of the local italian restaurants is mexican. I've always considered that an interesting combination. |
| 23:56.13 | Latrina | my child will ultimately be Italian / Mexican |
| 23:56.32 | Latrina | hopefully a Russian flavor will be added to the family within the next years to come |
| 23:57.20 | furrywolf | just need some irish too, and you can gaurantee he/she ends up alcoholic. :) |
| 23:57.35 | Latrina | hahaha |
| 23:57.55 | Artemis3 | tequila not good enough? |
| 23:58.05 | Latrina | I am not a drinker myself |
| 23:58.26 | Latrina | I just cant handle it, I am not good at it |
| 23:58.41 | Latrina | and hangover can last me for a week long |
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