| 00:00.04 | KatolaZ | passstab: yes what? |
| 00:00.10 | KatolaZ | have you rebooted already? |
| 00:00.29 | TheTrueHooha | https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=17/06/05/0033213&from=rss |
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| 00:02.57 | KatolaZ | passstab: anyway, a possible solution here is to hack the prerm script |
| 00:03.04 | KatolaZ | and let it return 0 |
| 00:03.08 | KatolaZ | without doing anything |
| 00:03.18 | KatolaZ | I bet cups is not started in your system |
| 00:03.24 | KatolaZ | so that should do the trick |
| 00:03.41 | KatolaZ | and allow you to remove the current version of cups and install the devuan one |
| 00:04.02 | KatolaZ | nevertheless, this is something which did not happen with the previos point versions of jessie |
| 00:04.11 | KatolaZ | it seems peculiar of the latest 8.8 |
| 00:04.15 | KatolaZ | and it's a bug |
| 00:04.25 | fsmithred | is systemd running? |
| 00:04.38 | KatolaZ | it seems that all the other packages need to be upgraded before systemd itself is removed |
| 00:04.41 | KatolaZ | damn |
| 00:04.55 | KatolaZ | and they still insist in saying that Debian is usable without systemd.... |
| 00:04.56 | KatolaZ | :( |
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| 00:05.20 | fsmithred | do they? Or do they just say you can use sysvinit if you want? |
| 00:06.05 | fsmithred | I've never done a jessie to jessie, just wheezy to jessie. |
| 00:06.36 | fsmithred | but I think it would be easier to install sysvinit and boot with it before switching to devuan. |
| 00:08.00 | KatolaZ | nope |
| 00:08.19 | KatolaZ | because you can't stop services which have only systemd unit files |
| 00:08.22 | KatolaZ | like cups.... |
| 00:08.25 | KatolaZ | damn |
| 00:08.40 | KatolaZ | so you should first update all these packages |
| 00:08.52 | KatolaZ | and then remove systemd for sysvinit.... |
| 00:10.15 | KatolaZ | (if I have understood the problem here...) |
| 00:17.22 | passstab | this is a bigger hassle then I anticipated, I might just move to freebsd like I've been meaning to |
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| 00:21.12 | *** topic/#devuan is Recent (2017-05-25): Jessie 1.0.0 stable release http://ur1.ca/qxaa5 | https://devuan.org/ discussion channel (logged at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan - with useful 'search') | Please take off-topic conversation to #debianfork | /msg chanserv info #devuan | !listkeys #devuan <foo> | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ |
| 00:21.18 | KatolaZ | passstab: sorry |
| 00:21.29 | KatolaZ | passstab: I am sure we na get around that though |
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| 01:43.29 | Artemis3 | passstab, moving from debian to devuan is hard, but freebsd easier? how about.. install devuan clean? |
| 01:45.54 | Artemis3 | passstab, and im actually thinking you just switch off systemd in debian jessie by using sysvinit-core, rebooting and then doing the migration (which should be very painless atm) |
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| 01:47.01 | Artemis3 | in any case backup and reinstall always work xD |
| 01:50.14 | gnarface | guaranteed a clean install of devuan is less work than a clean install of freebsd |
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| 03:19.42 | passstab | devuan is my stopgap, I would rather use freebsd |
| 03:21.52 | passstab | installing either of them is easy enough for me, I thought I could transition this machine to keep it working for a few more months |
| 03:57.33 | pekman | Devuan review on Distrowatch |
| 03:57.39 | pekman | http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20170605#devuan |
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| 05:56.10 | passstab | KatolaZ fsmithred it is working now :) |
| 05:57.07 | passstab | I'm now getting nosh related errors when I use apt, but I will deal with that another day. |
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| 07:00.38 | Centurion_Dan | o/ |
| 07:01.50 | Centurion_Dan | has anybody had issues with ssh'ng from a devuan jessie host to another devuan jessie box and getting frequent disconnects... |
| 07:03.00 | fsmithred | Centurion_Dan, yes. |
| 07:04.18 | Centurion_Dan | I'm running openssh on both client and server multiple systems... ad it's specifically that scenario... ssh from my wheezy system into a devuan jessie and the problem doesn't occur, and ssh'ng from my devuan jessie system to debian wheezy is not a problem either. |
| 07:04.43 | Centurion_Dan | it's only from devuan jessie to devuan jessie... |
| 07:05.02 | fsmithred | actually, I get it jessie to wheezy |
| 07:05.33 | Centurion_Dan | I've just upgraded a client desktop I remotely manage to jessie, and immediately I get frequent dropped sessions ever since the upgrade. |
| 07:06.12 | KatolaZ | Centurion_Dan, fsmithred o/ |
| 07:06.13 | fsmithred | I've been getting them for a long time |
| 07:06.16 | fsmithred | hi |
| 07:06.27 | KatolaZ | I've never got anything similar |
| 07:06.38 | Centurion_Dan | but only from my jessie to jessie, wheezy to jessie is fine.. |
| 07:07.01 | Centurion_Dan | KatolaZ: you using openssh? |
| 07:07.51 | KatolaZ | yep |
| 07:08.15 | KatolaZ | silly question, but you do have keepalive enabled |
| 07:08.21 | KatolaZ | (right?) |
| 07:08.33 | Centurion_Dan | in ssh? |
| 07:08.37 | KatolaZ | yep |
| 07:08.57 | Centurion_Dan | i've done nothing to turn it on, so if it's not default... |
| 07:09.02 | KatolaZ | TCPKeepAlive yes |
| 07:09.02 | Centurion_Dan | it's not on... |
| 07:09.20 | KatolaZ | dunno if it's on or off by default |
| 07:09.21 | fsmithred | yes |
| 07:09.55 | fsmithred | what's the error message? I can't remember it now. |
| 07:10.28 | KatolaZ | the problem is that if it's on (and it's on by default), any temporary problem with the route will close the connetion |
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| 07:18.54 | fsmithred | Write failed: Broken pipe |
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| 07:20.10 | Centurion_Dan | what was really interesting is when I was working on git.devuan.org (the new server) I logged in and ran a tmux session and then logged in from a second terminal, and whenever it appeared the connection had died for one, I would switch to the other and still see updates from what I was doing in the second terminal in the first for quite a while, but it wouldn't acknowledge any input and eventually the terminal would show a disconnected err |
| 07:21.23 | KatolaZ | Centurion_Dan: TCPKeepAlive is active there |
| 07:21.32 | KatolaZ | so this might be the reason |
| 07:21.40 | KatolaZ | if you have temporary route problems |
| 07:21.51 | KatolaZ | just try disabling it |
| 07:22.01 | KatolaZ | (not there, please!) :D |
| 07:22.02 | Centurion_Dan | but ironically I didn't have it as bad with nemesis |
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| 07:22.11 | KatolaZ | well, it depends on the route |
| 07:22.24 | Centurion_Dan | same server so same route? |
| 07:22.25 | KatolaZ | it might work perfectly on one route, and badly on another |
| 07:22.35 | KatolaZ | Centurion_Dan: it depends |
| 07:22.45 | KatolaZ | if you have route problems in between |
| 07:22.48 | Centurion_Dan | but it's really consistent... |
| 07:22.55 | KatolaZ | twosessions might use two slightly different routes |
| 07:23.12 | Centurion_Dan | anyway in this case the client is pretty close so I'm shocked... |
| 07:23.33 | KatolaZ | it might be just a matter of one of your ISP routers |
| 07:23.53 | KatolaZ | try disabling keepalive on your client's machine |
| 07:24.51 | KatolaZ | that will leave any crashed connection hanging on the server though |
| 07:25.32 | Centurion_Dan | nup.. didn't fix it... |
| 07:25.55 | KatolaZ | *shrugs* |
| 07:26.59 | Centurion_Dan | it's like only my tx channel drops, the rest carries on.... |
| 07:28.43 | Centurion_Dan | fsmithred: what do you have for a firewall... |
| 07:29.25 | fsmithred | I'm behind two routers |
| 07:29.44 | fsmithred | might have arno running |
| 07:29.45 | Centurion_Dan | double nat? |
| 07:31.01 | fsmithred | yes |
| 07:31.36 | fsmithred | wire in this room didn't reach, so I added a router and another wire |
| 07:32.23 | fsmithred | I added ServerAliveInterval 120 at some point, but it didn't help |
| 07:32.38 | fsmithred | maybe should have added ClientAlive. I don't see that. |
| 07:35.32 | fsmithred | https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/2010/what-does-the-broken-pipe-message-mean-in-an-ssh-session |
| 07:40.04 | fsmithred | I'm going back to sleep |
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| 07:45.57 | edbarx | Removing dependency on lazuild... fpc is more than enough. |
| 07:47.54 | gnarface | Centurion_Dan: can you reproduce the problem within your LAN? is this only connections to remote servers? |
| 07:49.28 | gnarface | Centurion_Dan: it kinda sounds like someone at your ISP is just dropping the connections for fun |
| 07:49.48 | gnarface | Centurion_Dan: or... perhaps some overzealous home router flood protection feature? |
| 07:51.07 | gnarface | Centurion_Dan: i haven't seen this yet but it occurs to me that the only ssh connections i've left going for more than a couple hours have been all through my own hardware, and all from ceres -> other |
| 07:51.26 | gnarface | at least... lately |
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| 08:11.14 | edbarx | lazuild? That is an error. I meant lazbuild. |
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| 08:35.24 | aitor | edbarx: and maybe |
| 08:35.48 | aitor | libgtk2.0-dev, fp-units-gfx, lcl-nogui, lcl-utils, lcl-units |
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| 08:57.43 | buZz | parazyd: HAHAHAHA @ https://pub.parazyd.cf/dev/random/DBlnMI0UAAAv7yt.jpg |
| 08:59.31 | parazyd | lol you found it |
| 08:59.58 | buZz | dreamer did :) |
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| 12:15.45 | msiism | writing devuan's documentation will probably include copying (and modifying) a lot of documentation from debian, which is not a problem, since debian's docs are licensed under the gpl. still, i think it shouldn't just be copied over without a notice about where it came from, since the people who originally wrote it obviously put a lot of work into it, which should, i think, be preserved as far as possible. |
| 12:16.34 | msiism | the question is: where do we put the credits? |
| 12:17.34 | msiism | i've begun to use footnotes in the wiki to note paragraphs i copied over from devuan's current website, but these will have to go away eventually. |
| 12:18.05 | gnarface | that's the way wikipedia does it, what's wrong with it? |
| 12:18.27 | msiism | gnarface: it makes the docs unreadable |
| 12:19.14 | msiism | gnarface: imagine an installation guide that has a hundred footnotes just telling you where this and that has been copied from. |
| 12:20.03 | msiism | i mean, with the debian installation guides, this will not be too much of a problem: you simply fork the whole thing, then modify it and make clear that you did that. no need for footnotes then.. |
| 12:20.12 | gnarface | well as long as they're clearly footnotes and labeled as such, bulleted, linked, etc, the way wikipedia does it, way at the bottom in a separate section, i'm not sure i see how it's that big of a deal |
| 12:20.21 | gnarface | seems to me like something easily fixed with a little formatting |
| 12:20.57 | msiism | no need to fix anything there. doku wiki is quite good with footnotes. |
| 12:22.29 | msiism | i'm just a bit uncomfortable with the idea of making devuan's documentation look like an academic paper. |
| 12:22.56 | gnarface | eh, i guess my opinion is the wrong one to ask for then |
| 12:25.00 | msiism | maybe there could be a credits page. |
| 12:26.48 | msiism | my point is: if you're reading installation instruction and maybe struggle to understand them because you're new to devuan, it will be really distracting the to have loads of footnotes which tell you where this and that part of the manual has been forked from. |
| 12:30.35 | msiism | i think as long as the things that are being copied are gpl, there should be no problem with using a credits page instead of putting in citations directly. gpl doesn't mention anything about attribution at all, if i got it right. |
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| 12:33.31 | msiism | btw, i've been trying to archive all currently available installation guides for debian jessie from https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/installmanual with wget yesterday, but it just didn't work out. maybe someone could help me out on this. |
| 12:33.40 | gnarface | well, it does mention attribution actually |
| 12:33.58 | msiism | gnarface: ok. then i'll have to read again. |
| 12:34.05 | gnarface | it's not super specific on how to provide it |
| 12:34.29 | gnarface | as i understood it, the PRIMARY point of the GPL is attribution |
| 12:34.55 | msiism | gnarface: i thought, the primaray point was spreading "copyleft". |
| 12:35.02 | gnarface | that's what copyleft is |
| 12:35.09 | gnarface | forced attribution |
| 12:35.43 | msiism | how do you mean? |
| 12:35.55 | gnarface | well, distinct from copyright in that it's ONLY about preserving attribution |
| 12:36.09 | gnarface | (instead of preserving profits and hiding information) |
| 12:37.05 | gnarface | see, the reason they don't just ditch the license is then a commercial company could actually take it, copyright it, then sue the original authors to stop claiming they wrote it, and stop using it |
| 12:37.15 | gnarface | the GPL prevents that |
| 12:37.47 | msiism | ok, i think we don't mean the same thing by "attribution" (maybe i got it wrong) |
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| 12:39.52 | msiism | by attribution i meant giving credit to an original author. |
| 12:40.13 | gnarface | yea |
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| 12:40.56 | gnarface | believe it or not, if you don't put a license on it that says you wrote it and nobody is allowed to lie and claim you didn't, a company could actually legally do that. steal it and lie about it. and then sue you back. |
| 12:41.51 | gnarface | but i'm not sure how detailed debian's own record is of those wiki edits... |
| 12:42.09 | msiism | i'm not talking about debian wiki pages |
| 12:42.12 | gnarface | nor am i sure that just saying "we stole parts of this whole thing from debian.org" once on the page wouldn't be enough |
| 12:43.05 | msiism | gnarface: well, if you forked the installation guide as a whole project, it probably would, since then it's clear. |
| 12:44.07 | msiism | btw, the debian wiki fundamentally suffers from not putting it's contents under a specific license. |
| 12:44.26 | gnarface | really? |
| 12:44.38 | gnarface | that's interesting |
| 12:44.47 | gnarface | does suggest they don't care |
| 12:45.26 | gnarface | that font in their logo is non-free though |
| 12:45.31 | msiism | gnarface: yes. it's a pain and one of the reasons why this wiki is not really being used by a lot of people to share things. |
| 12:47.59 | msiism | ok, so i'll read the gpl again, and maybe ask someone at the debian project about forking their installation guides. |
| 12:49.20 | gnarface | there are some fundamental differences between gpl2 and gpl3 but i think they are just primarily related to which open source license you're allowed to use |
| 12:49.50 | msiism | ok. these docs are gpl2 |
| 12:52.03 | msiism | well, first i'll have to read through those install manuals and see if it really make sense to copy them over and use them as a base. i've installed quite a few debian an devuan systems (on personal computers) and i cann't recall every really reading those installation manuals. |
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| 12:55.24 | gnarface | i think probably there should be a minimal version made |
| 12:56.53 | gnarface | alot of the older debian docs, and newer docs with largely older content (like the release notes/installation manual) seem to be written extra wordy and preachy to specifically discourage participation |
| 12:56.58 | gnarface | i'm not sure that's the right approach |
| 12:57.03 | gnarface | it seems misguided to me |
| 12:57.06 | gnarface | or perhaps just out of date |
| 12:57.43 | gnarface | it also bears a huge burden of overhead |
| 12:57.51 | gnarface | maintenance overhead |
| 12:58.14 | msiism | that's probably why it's out of date |
| 12:59.13 | gnarface | hmmm... maybe only the GPL3 demands attribution |
| 12:59.21 | gnarface | maybe GPL2 just demands that you preserve the license |
| 12:59.27 | msiism | i thought so |
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| 13:02.26 | msiism | ok, i'l have a look into that later and will also give archiving those debian docs another try. |
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| 13:03.10 | gnarface | i think they're ... |
| 13:03.13 | gnarface | packaged in the repo |
| 13:03.15 | gnarface | but i was too late |
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| 13:20.01 | *** join/#devuan DPA (~Daniel@194.230.159.222) |
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| 13:25.13 | fsmithred | gnarface, I have the ssh problem only on connections outside the LAN. |
| 13:25.31 | fsmithred | and only some connections |
| 13:26.58 | gnarface | fsmithred: Comcast Cable by any chance? |
| 13:27.37 | gnarface | oh, charter |
| 13:27.39 | gnarface | that's almost as bad |
| 13:27.56 | gnarface | i'd be checking for packet loss upstream and water in the junction box outside |
| 13:28.09 | fsmithred | oh |
| 13:28.25 | gnarface | i see no reason to assume it's a software problem |
| 13:28.34 | fsmithred | how do I check for packet loss? |
| 13:28.40 | gnarface | just set up a running ping |
| 13:28.45 | gnarface | leave it going for a while |
| 13:29.11 | gnarface | see how many get returned and how many get dropped (anything over 1% is probably severe hardware failure) |
| 13:29.25 | fsmithred | ok |
| 13:29.48 | gnarface | there might be extraneous circumstances, but usually packet loss is not specific to the connection type |
| 13:29.57 | gnarface | in theory it would show up in other stuff |
| 13:30.04 | gnarface | but a http request would be more resilient |
| 13:30.10 | gnarface | than a standing ssh connection |
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| 13:30.51 | gnarface | so it's possible you've had the problem for a while, or that it's been getting gradually worse and you're just noticing it in persistent connections because they're the most fragile |
| 13:31.24 | fsmithred | 100% packet loss |
| 13:31.31 | gnarface | hah |
| 13:31.33 | gnarface | well ok |
| 13:31.47 | fsmithred | that's not natural |
| 13:32.02 | fsmithred | and I don't have control over the remote network. |
| 13:32.26 | gnarface | if they're under DDOS-scale load too, it could cause this |
| 13:32.44 | gnarface | or just their own bad hardware/routing config |
| 13:33.05 | gnarface | when you traceroute to it, does the route come back the same every time? |
| 13:33.11 | gnarface | or do you see middle hops changing? |
| 13:33.17 | fsmithred | oh, I assumed firewall is dropping them |
| 13:33.52 | DPA | traceroute has a -T and a -p option. |
| 13:34.28 | gnarface | yea you can do a tcp traceroute instead of icmp, less of the intermediary routers will block that |
| 13:34.46 | gnarface | probably should disable reverse lookups too, to isolate the issue from potential DNS issues |
| 13:35.17 | fsmithred | nope. not the same on both traces |
| 13:35.33 | gnarface | that's usually bad |
| 13:35.35 | fsmithred | plain traceroute works |
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| 13:35.59 | gnarface | usually if the routes are changing on you it's a sign of something wrong upstream |
| 13:36.25 | gnarface | not necessarily at your datacenter, either |
| 13:36.26 | fsmithred | upstream is charter for both ends |
| 13:36.32 | gnarface | interesting |
| 13:36.39 | gnarface | so it stays entirely within charter's network? |
| 13:36.42 | fsmithred | 40 miles from here to there |
| 13:36.55 | gnarface | how long has this been happening? |
| 13:37.10 | gnarface | hours or days? |
| 13:37.14 | fsmithred | months |
| 13:37.20 | gnarface | bahaha |
| 13:37.25 | gnarface | oh man, i'd just get a new ISP |
| 13:37.31 | fsmithred | not my choice |
| 13:37.38 | gnarface | bummer |
| 13:37.53 | gnarface | do you have any business-class support you can contact and tell them about this? |
| 13:37.56 | fsmithred | remote end was time-warner until recently |
| 13:38.04 | gnarface | (chances are they know already but still) |
| 13:38.28 | fsmithred | yeah, on the remote end - they're a cable-tv station |
| 13:39.40 | fsmithred | I can talk to the network guy there |
| 13:40.03 | fsmithred | I think I mentioned it when it first started happening |
| 13:40.57 | gnarface | show him some of the traceroutes |
| 13:41.00 | gnarface | show him the packet loss |
| 13:41.33 | fsmithred | ok |
| 13:41.38 | gnarface | that's as close to proof that it's not your fault as you can get |
| 13:41.50 | fsmithred | I think it started happening when I switched from wheezy to jessie |
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| 13:42.04 | gnarface | could be coincidence |
| 13:42.08 | fsmithred | yeah |
| 13:42.22 | fsmithred | I can test with wheezy, too. |
| 13:42.27 | fsmithred | btb |
| 13:42.30 | gnarface | although if it turns out not to be, that would be something i'd want to know |
| 13:42.35 | fsmithred | brb |
| 13:42.55 | gnarface | though it seems very difficult to imagine a scenario where a minor version change in ssh could cause this behavior |
| 13:43.15 | gnarface | the shifting routes are really damning |
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| 13:51.36 | fsmithred | why would it go through Virginia and Missouri to get from one point in Mass. to another? |
| 13:51.45 | fsmithred | and through rr.com |
| 13:53.11 | fsmithred | in fact, the changing middle routes are rr.com |
| 13:54.30 | gnarface | well, depending on who they're buying access from, they might have to take very bizarre off-the-beaten-path routes just functioning normally |
| 13:54.48 | gnarface | i had one isp (telaris?) once upon a time that had to route ALL traffic through dallas, TX |
| 13:55.10 | gnarface | all the traffic for their whole operation apparently |
| 13:55.24 | gnarface | i can't tell you whether it should be going through there on a normal day or not |
| 13:55.29 | fsmithred | that kinda goes against internet philosophy |
| 13:55.42 | gnarface | but not against greedy cheepskate philosophy |
| 13:55.52 | fsmithred | oh right. forgot about that. |
| 13:56.48 | gnarface | but, the point is, i'm not sure if routing that far out of the way is expected for their network normally, or the symptom of an outage. however i AM sure those routes should not be flip-flopping. and if you're getting packet loss to the same nodes in question, well, i think you've found your problem |
| 13:57.34 | gnarface | i can't say i have much to offer in the way of solutions though other than just emailing/calling anyone who will listen |
| 13:57.43 | fsmithred | should I try pinging those middle points? |
| 13:57.51 | gnarface | yea ping everything in the chain |
| 13:57.56 | fsmithred | ok |
| 13:58.00 | fsmithred | thanks |
| 13:58.08 | gnarface | though some of them may explicitly be configured to ignore normal pings |
| 13:58.15 | gnarface | just as a part of normal paranoia |
| 13:58.29 | gnarface | (hence the need to compare tcp traceroutes to icmp traceroutes) |
| 13:59.03 | gnarface | actually maybe even ping can do tcp pings instead of icmp, not sure |
| 14:00.01 | fsmithred | how long should I let a ping run? |
| 14:00.04 | gnarface | but, what's important to know is 100% packet loss to icmp ping traffic might be a normal configuration. anywhere *between* 0% and 100% packet loss though, is a sign of some degree of failure or overloading |
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| 14:00.32 | gnarface | i would say it's just important to let it run long enough to count out rounding errors from the last ping |
| 14:00.48 | gnarface | if you send 2 pings and ctrl-c before the second one comes back, you will get told 50% packet loss |
| 14:00.51 | gnarface | so you know |
| 14:00.54 | gnarface | i dunno 30 pings? |
| 14:00.58 | gnarface | 100? |
| 14:01.15 | fsmithred | ok, first one was 63 with no loss |
| 14:01.18 | gnarface | the problem is if it's load related, it may not be happening at all times of day |
| 14:01.43 | fsmithred | seems to happen any time of day and just about every time I connect |
| 14:01.56 | gnarface | hmmm. |
| 14:01.56 | Vall | Hello everyone, quick question here; is there a "debug" or "verbose" mode for "apt-get" to tell me why it won't install certain packages? |
| 14:02.15 | gnarface | hey Vall doesn't it tell you by default? |
| 14:02.37 | Vall | gnarface: I'm getting this when trying to install libvirt-clients: |
| 14:03.18 | Vall | <PROTECTED> |
| 14:03.53 | gnarface | Vall: that IS the reason. note that "bpo8" signifies jessie-backports |
| 14:04.00 | Vall | ahhh |
| 14:04.01 | Vall | OK |
| 14:04.03 | gnarface | Vall: looks like you enabled backports and forgot to disable it |
| 14:04.17 | gnarface | Vall: (or accidentally removed the other ones) |
| 14:04.22 | fsmithred | it should no longer need to be pinned |
| 14:04.36 | Vall | No, I enabled backports (for LXC 2.0) and kept it enabled on purpose ;-) |
| 14:04.51 | fsmithred | you got libvirt0 from backports? |
| 14:05.00 | fsmithred | apt-cache policy libvirt0 |
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| 14:05.11 | gnarface | it looks like he did not, judging by that error |
| 14:05.15 | gnarface | which may or may not be the problem |
| 14:05.22 | Vall | my rationale is that, if the LXC package (or anything else gotten from backports) is updated, I want apt-get update to pick it up |
| 14:05.30 | Vall | lemme check |
| 14:05.46 | gnarface | well libvirt0 here is complaining because it wants the older version |
| 14:05.54 | Vall | yep, libvirt0 seems to be from backports |
| 14:06.00 | Vall | libvirt0: |
| 14:06.00 | Vall | <PROTECTED> |
| 14:06.20 | fsmithred | yeah, so you'd need to get the clients package from bpo, too. |
| 14:06.28 | fsmithred | or downgrade libvirt0 |
| 14:06.39 | gnarface | er, right, yea libvirt-clients is what wants the older version |
| 14:06.54 | fsmithred | backports is working properly - it's trying to install from jessie unless you tell it otherwise |
| 14:07.07 | Vall | OK, so I need to keep including "-t jessie-backports" on all my "apt-get install" commands? |
| 14:07.14 | fsmithred | not all |
| 14:07.18 | fsmithred | just the ones that need it |
| 14:07.22 | Vall | Ah! |
| 14:07.24 | Vall | Like that one |
| 14:07.26 | Vall | makes sense |
| 14:07.41 | Vall | Thanks fsmithred and gnarface, much appreciated |
| 14:07.51 | fsmithred | yeah, if you installed everything possible from backports you're probably doing something that hasn't been tested. |
| 14:07.52 | gnarface | Vall: in general, programs and their dependencies should either both come from backports, or neither. there are few exceptions |
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| 14:08.06 | Vall | Ok |
| 14:08.18 | Vall | I still have a lot to learn re: APT :-/ |
| 14:08.32 | gnarface | there's this other one called aptitude |
| 14:08.36 | gnarface | i don't like it, but you may like it more |
| 14:08.45 | gnarface | it's a fundamentally different approach |
| 14:08.47 | Vall | Old RH hand here... since 1994... just changed over to Devuan to escape systemd hell |
| 14:08.56 | Vall | nah |
| 14:08.59 | gnarface | welcome aboard :) |
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| 14:09.41 | Vall | thanks for the tip, gnarface... but I think it's better to bite the bullet and learn how things work "down there" instead of using "higher level" crap that tries to hide things from us |
| 14:09.48 | telst4r | aptitude's my best friend. Simple enough yet still flexible and workable over remote console. |
| 14:09.55 | Vall | gnarface: you came from RH to? |
| 14:10.04 | KatolaZ | Vall: I am surprised yum has not been able to catch up with apt in the last 15 years |
| 14:10.10 | gnarface | Vall: not most recently, but at one point, yea |
| 14:10.16 | fsmithred | aptitude sometimes has solutions that apt-get does not. Run it with -s (--simulate) |
| 14:10.23 | Vall | KatolaZ: for me, YUM always worked pretty well |
| 14:10.41 | KatolaZ | Vall: sure, but dependency management was not ideal |
| 14:11.09 | KatolaZ | (even if I stopped using rpm completely around 2003) |
| 14:11.21 | Vall | gnarface: any sources/howtos/tutorials you could point to me to read and get up to speed on Debian/Devuan, on APT specially ? |
| 14:11.35 | KatolaZ | Vall: you don't need much to get started |
| 14:11.54 | KatolaZ | you will learn what you need when you need it, probably |
| 14:11.56 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 14:11.57 | edbarx | fsmithred: skeletal battery monitor source can now build Debian packages. Executable size downsized to 2.7MB and debugging information was removed. Package installs a launcher under 'Other' with name 'battpooch'. I have tested the package under XFCE4. Launcher saved in /usr/share/applications. |
| 14:12.20 | Vall | KatolaZ: to get started, sure not... I've already got a half-dozen Devuan machines running here... but what I want to learn is the deep, darl stuff... |
| 14:12.22 | Vall | *dark |
| 14:12.49 | Vall | KatolaZ: yum from 2010 on (RH6) got a very nice facelift |
| 14:12.50 | KatolaZ | Vall: like, the blue, the brown, and the black? :D |
| 14:13.00 | Vall | LOL |
| 14:13.12 | Vall | I was referring to magic ;-) |
| 14:13.22 | KatolaZ | oh, but there is no magic in apt ;P |
| 14:13.28 | Vall | LOL |
| 14:13.29 | gnarface | Vall: i wish, but embarrassingly enough, i learned most of it by complaining in #debian until someone took pity on me and explained it to shut me up |
| 14:13.56 | KatolaZ | Vall: the basic information is |
| 14:13.59 | gnarface | Vall: but the man page is huge and there's really only a couple commands you really need to know |
| 14:14.03 | KatolaZ | apt is able to manage binary and source packages |
| 14:14.08 | KatolaZ | and to resolve dependencies |
| 14:14.09 | Vall | KatolaZ: any sufficiently non-undestood technology is undistinguishable from magic ;-) |
| 14:14.13 | KatolaZ | it can install, remove, purge |
| 14:14.17 | KatolaZ | and also build paclkages |
| 14:14.28 | KatolaZ | and resolve build-time dependencies |
| 14:14.32 | KatolaZ | if you ever need that |
| 14:14.45 | Vall | gnarface: :-) Looks like I'm already following your steps ;-) |
| 14:14.57 | DPA | Vall: did you try libvirt-lxc? |
| 14:14.58 | fsmithred | edbarx, I am unable to find any files in battpooch |
| 14:15.12 | fsmithred | on gitlab |
| 14:15.20 | Vall | DPA: that is what I'm trying to do right now, but hitting the backports issue |
| 14:15.34 | Vall | I installed backports here to (IIRC) be able to use LXC2.0 |
| 14:15.57 | KatolaZ | Vall: backports is a repo |
| 14:16.07 | KatolaZ | you can't install it (to be precise) |
| 14:16.09 | edbarx | fsmithred: it means I have set package visibility in the wrong way. |
| 14:16.15 | KatolaZ | you can install packages from that repo |
| 14:16.24 | Vall | KatolaZ: you are correct |
| 14:16.31 | Vall | I meant, I configured it here |
| 14:16.31 | KatolaZ | (I am being pedantic here only because you asked more info on apt. sorry for that) |
| 14:16.32 | fsmithred | oh, I've done that. |
| 14:16.44 | Vall | KatolaZ: your pedantry is much appreciated ;-) |
| 14:16.58 | Vall | seriously, please correct me on any mistakes and I will be grateful |
| 14:17.09 | KatolaZ | I will, only because you asked |
| 14:17.12 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 14:17.14 | Vall | LOL |
| 14:17.18 | Vall | ;-) |
| 14:17.24 | edbarx | Yes, it is memory failing. Sometimes it I suspect I had a minor stroke without knowing. |
| 14:18.08 | Vall | Oh man, life would have been much simpler if RH had simply fired that pottyhead guy after the pulseaudio fiasco |
| 14:18.30 | Vall | but then, I would not be encountering that wonderful community that is Devuan :-) |
| 14:19.36 | edbarx | Visibility is 'public'. |
| 14:20.17 | edbarx | fsmithred: try this URL. "https://git.devuan.org/edbarx/battpooch" |
| 14:20.44 | fsmithred | Vall, https://wiki.debian.org/Apt |
| 14:21.18 | Vall | Thanks fsmithred. I will give it a through reading |
| 14:21.39 | fsmithred | edbarx, that's the one I tried. No change. |
| 14:24.23 | fsmithred | This project does not have a wiki homepage yet |
| 14:26.39 | edbarx | fsmithred: yes, not logged as edbarx, git.devuan.org does not show me any files under battpooch. I will try to solve the issue. |
| 14:27.49 | fsmithred | maybe you put the files in the wrong place. I've gotten the same error before. |
| 14:28.23 | Vall | brb |
| 14:29.02 | fsmithred | me too. more coffee. |
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| 14:45.37 | Vall | Holy crap |
| 14:46.00 | Vall | DPA, following your guide to make a Devuan image for LXC here |
| 14:46.29 | Vall | Here's what "apt-get -t jessie-backports install libvirt-bin libvirt0 libvirt-daemon cgroupfs-mount" just installed: |
| 14:46.40 | Vall | (just the most shocking packages) |
| 14:46.51 | Vall | Get:2 http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ jessie-backports/main libpulse0 amd64 7.1-2~bpo8+1 [268 kB] |
| 14:47.16 | Vall | x11-common |
| 14:47.29 | Vall | libbluetooth3:amd64 |
| 14:47.55 | Vall | libasound2:amd64 |
| 14:48.05 | Vall | libpulse0:amd64 |
| 14:48.13 | Vall | libsystemd0:amd64 |
| 14:48.53 | gnarface | Vall: note that libsystemd0 is not the systemd daemon. it's just the run-time dependencies that the package was compiled with |
| 14:49.16 | gnarface | Vall: same for the others. they're just libraries |
| 14:49.29 | Vall | no doubt |
| 14:49.38 | Vall | but are they really necessary for an LXC image? |
| 14:49.44 | gnarface | oh, hell if i know |
| 14:49.49 | Vall | Those things are supposed to be headless, no? |
| 14:49.53 | gnarface | i just didn't want you panicking |
| 14:49.54 | Vall | so audio? X? |
| 14:49.58 | Vall | LOL ;-0 |
| 14:49.59 | Vall | OK |
| 14:50.20 | gnarface | wait, libvirt is a frontend for qemu, right? |
| 14:51.15 | gnarface | er, qemu-kvm? |
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| 14:51.31 | Vall | I think so |
| 14:51.37 | gnarface | i'm pretty sure you can ditch all that and just launch qemu from the command-line if you know the syntax |
| 14:52.05 | gnarface | for whatever it's worth |
| 14:52.22 | Vall | This is for folllowing DPA's "recipe" to assemble an LXC image for Devuan containers, here: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=617 |
| 14:53.03 | gnarface | well it's conceivable that guests might want access to audio and bluetooth capabilities |
| 14:53.06 | Vall | I think all he runs from all that stuff is virsh |
| 14:53.27 | gnarface | i don't know enough about this to know how hard it is to eliminate those dependencies |
| 14:54.38 | gnarface | (and still retain virsh) |
| 14:55.29 | Vall | that would be the best possible scenario |
| 14:55.42 | Vall | DPA, are you online? |
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| 14:59.04 | _moep_ | hello! I'm using nftables and is there a script that runs at each restart nftables? |
| 15:00.05 | fsmithred | Vall, you could try 'apt-get -t jessie-backports --no-install-recommends install...' |
| 15:00.24 | gnarface | _moep_: is it /etc/init.d/nftables? (just a guess) |
| 15:00.25 | Vall | fsmithred: good idea |
| 15:00.29 | Vall | lemme check |
| 15:03.35 | _moep_ | gnarface: nope |
| 15:03.57 | gnarface | _moep_: maybe there's an example one in /usr/share/doc/nftables/examples or something like that? |
| 15:06.11 | _moep_ | gnarface: oh yes. there is it. just moving it into init.d/? |
| 15:06.26 | gnarface | uh, you'll also have to run update-rc.d on it |
| 15:06.40 | gnarface | maybe some other things too |
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| 15:07.11 | gnarface | sorry, i'm not familiar with it myself. this was a lucky guess. i'm looking at the file list though now, and i see /usr/share/doc/nftables/examples/sysvinit/README, maybe it has further specifics |
| 15:07.16 | fsmithred | or do you do something equivalent to iptables-restore? |
| 15:08.31 | gnarface | i see also a package called "iptables-nftables-compat" |
| 15:08.42 | gnarface | it's not in backports though |
| 15:09.17 | fsmithred | nftables replaces the popular {ip,ip6,arp,eb}tables. |
| 15:09.22 | _moep_ | gnarface: lol the README: Given Debian default init system is systemd, I have no intention to support |
| 15:09.26 | _moep_ | sysvinit apart of providing this example file. |
| 15:09.36 | fsmithred | https://wiki.nftables.org/wiki-nftables/index.php/Main_Page |
| 15:09.38 | gnarface | _moep_: doh! well that's annoying. |
| 15:11.27 | gnarface | _moep_: in general the process is to copy it to /etc/init.d, make it executable, and then add symlinks to the /etc/rc?.d/ directories. but that's assuming the script itself doesn't need edits. you probably should read through it to make sure it doesn't... |
| 15:11.49 | _moep_ | gnarface: hm the script doesnt have run levels |
| 15:11.55 | _moep_ | so update-rc doesnt work |
| 15:12.00 | gnarface | _moep_: update-rc.d can automate the /etc/rc?.d/ symlink creation a bit for you, though learning it's syntax may be more complicated than just manually creating the symlinks |
| 15:12.24 | gnarface | _moep_: afaik you have to specify the runlevels through update-rc.d too |
| 15:12.56 | _moep_ | which runlevel is nessecary for nftable? |
| 15:13.20 | gnarface | _moep_: there are some shorthands like "defaults" but you'll have to check the manpage for specifics. i'm guessing you want it enabled in every runlevel |
| 15:13.36 | _moep_ | yes |
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| 15:13.49 | gnarface | _moep_: either way, you need symlinks for every runlevel, whether they are set to enable or disable |
| 15:14.45 | gnarface | _moep_: i'm leaving for now, sorry. good luck |
| 15:15.04 | _moep_ | np thx |
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| 15:18.44 | fsmithred | _moep_, does it work like iptables, where you save rules in a file and then load the rules with a command? |
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| 15:23.19 | _moep_ | fsmithred: yes |
| 15:23.39 | fsmithred | then you probably don't need to mess with /etc/init.d |
| 15:24.36 | fsmithred | take a look at this and see if it applies: https://wiki.debian.org/iptables |
| 15:25.56 | _moep_ | I can do it in this way: nft list ruleset > /etc/nftables.rules [then flush] and then nft -f /etc/nftables.rules |
| 15:26.52 | fsmithred | you can put commands in a script under /etc/network/if-pre-up.d/ |
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| 15:50.35 | _moep_ | fsmithred: how is the cvommon way to handle update-rc.d? |
| 15:51.06 | fsmithred | I hardly ever use that command. |
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| 15:51.18 | fsmithred | usually just to disable a service |
| 15:51.29 | fsmithred | but more often, I'll do that with sysv-rc-conf |
| 15:51.44 | fsmithred | what init script do you want to mess with? |
| 15:53.03 | _moep_ | ok now its in the symlink lets test it :D |
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| 16:05.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | ((<_moep_> gnarface: hm the script doesnt have run levels)) so add them? |
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| 16:06.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | HTH http://paste.ubuntu.com/24794628 |
| 16:14.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | _moep_: >>Do not set these links manually. If something is wrong in the INFO block, problems will arise when insserv is run later for some other service. The manually added service will be removed with the next run of insserv for this script.<< (https://www.suse.com/documentation/sles11/book_sle_admin/index.html?page=%2Fdocumentation%2Fsles11%2Fbook_sle_admin%2Fdata%2Fsec_boot_init.html) |
| 16:15.41 | _moep_ | DocScrutinizer05: fixed it. in the script was just no startlevels |
| 16:15.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | # Default-Start: 3 5 |
| 16:16.11 | fsmithred | what's the advantage of making an init script instead of just dropping a script to load the rules in if-pre-up.d? |
| 16:16.14 | _moep_ | # Default-Start: 2 3 4 5 |
| 16:16.15 | _moep_ | # Default-Stop: 0 1 6 |
| 16:18.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | fsmithred: I lack the full context |
| 16:19.38 | fsmithred | my understanding is that nftables has commands to store and load rules like iptables |
| 16:19.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh iptables |
| 16:20.13 | fsmithred | with iptables, you can have a file with rules that loads before network comes up |
| 16:20.21 | fsmithred | iptables-restore |
| 16:20.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | makes a lot of sense, yes |
| 16:21.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, suse-idiot here :-) using yast and suse-fw2 |
| 16:21.23 | fsmithred | <_moep_> I can do it in this way: nft list ruleset > /etc/nftables.rules [then flush] and then nft -f /etc/nftables.rules |
| 16:21.23 | fsmithred | <fsmithred> you can put commands in a script under /etc/network/if-pre-up.d/ |
| 16:21.40 | fsmithred | oh, man, if there's one thing I miss from suse, it's the firewall. |
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| 16:22.05 | fsmithred | (former suse 7,8,9,10 user here) |
| 16:23.11 | fsmithred | best config file ever |
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| 16:27.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway seems my friend Harald Welte and colleagues made a good doc for everything related to their iptables |
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| 17:03.13 | DPA | Vall: Sorry, I fell asleap. The libraries such as libpulse0 aren't usefull for libvirt when used to manage lxc containers, and are mainly required for qemu, xen, and so on. I think ubuntu has a different package for libvirt-lxc with different dependencies, but since I use qemu and lxc, I didn't mind the extra dependencies. |
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| 17:25.13 | _moep_ | hey, how can I active this feature: sysctl: cannot stat /proc/sys/net/ipv6/conf/allforwarding: No such file or director |
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| 17:38.12 | Vall | back |
| 17:38.18 | Vall | DPA, no prob and thanks for the help |
| 17:39.09 | Vall | My idea is to use this machine exclusively for containers, therefore no qemu... |
| 17:40.28 | Vall | Can I use your procedure at https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=617 without libvirt? I understand it is used only for virsh, and I would be satisfied with using lxc-start... |
| 17:49.37 | fsmithred | _moep_, possibly a setting in /etc/sysctl.conf |
| 17:50.44 | fsmithred | ls |
| 17:51.04 | DPA | Vall: I think I already said last time that libvirt-lxc and the lxc tools are completely independent. They both use namespaces and cgroups, but are completely different in most other aspects. In fact, any container is created using namespaces, including docker containers and such. If you want to use the lxc tools instead of libvirt, you have to create an lxc image first. The debootstrapping and the steps in |
| 17:51.10 | DPA | the cheroot should be the same, but I think instead of pts/1, lxc/tty1 has t be added to /etc/securetty, it's probably not necessary to disable udp checksum offloading when using lxc tools, but I'm not sure about that, and the libvirt domain config can't be reused with lxc tools, which use a different format for their configuration. |
| 17:51.53 | Vall | OK, thanks for the clarifications |
| 17:52.44 | Vall | Some googling brought me that, I will try using it as a guide: https://www.osso.nl/blog/lxc-create-image-debian-squeeze/ |
| 17:53.19 | Vall | And sorry about not following along with your recipe, but I'm a maniac for minimalism ;-) |
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| 18:05.59 | _moep_ | fsmithred: yes I did it with sysctl -p and its added, but there is no directory |
| 18:06.12 | _moep_ | that means sometimes, that my kernel is to old |
| 18:06.24 | _moep_ | but Im using 4.9.x |
| 18:10.24 | Leander | are you using the kernel from backports? |
| 18:10.55 | Leander | because I can see /proc/sys/net/ipv6/conf/all/forwarding in here (and I'm not using ipv6 at all) |
| 18:11.12 | _moep_ | Leander: ack |
| 18:12.07 | _moep_ | from linux-image-4.9.0-0.bpo.3-amd64 4.9.25-1~bpo8+1 from the devuan backports repo |
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| 18:20.03 | Vall | Hummmrmrm |
| 18:20.08 | Vall | Something weird this way comes |
| 18:20.17 | Vall | I'm reading this: https://insights.ubuntu.com/2016/04/01/lxd-2-0-image-management-512/ |
| 18:20.35 | Vall | Which is titled as a tutorial for image creation under LXC 2.0 |
| 18:20.56 | Vall | But all examples use a command called "lxc"... which does *not* exist on LXC 2.0 |
| 18:21.43 | Vall | (or at least is not part of lxc-2.0.7-2~bpo8+1) |
| 18:22.18 | Vall | all commands here are of the form "lxc-<something>" (ie, "lxc-create", "lxc-attach", etc) |
| 18:23.24 | Vall | any ideas? |
| 18:23.37 | parazyd | Vall: install lxd |
| 18:24.58 | Vall | Humrmrmr |
| 18:25.08 | fsmithred | _moep_, I see that file in ascii with 4.9 and in jessie with 3.16 |
| 18:25.20 | Vall | parazyd: thanks, checking |
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| 18:25.38 | parazyd | yeah you need lxd to play with lxc2 |
| 18:25.43 | parazyd | it's worth it imho |
| 18:27.49 | Vall | parazyd: it doesn't seem to be in any repos: both "apt-cache search lxd | grep LXC" and "apt-cache -t jessie-backports search lxd | grep LXC" return nothing |
| 18:28.32 | parazyd | bummer |
| 18:28.48 | jaromil | may the source be with you |
| 18:28.57 | Vall | LOL |
| 18:29.02 | parazyd | maybe try here? https://linuxcontainers.org/lxd/ |
| 18:29.34 | Vall | fscking around with apt-cache search, I got what seems to be a python library/interface: python-pylxd - Python library for interacting with LXD REST API - Python 2.7 |
| 18:29.41 | Vall | But no LXD proper |
| 18:29.51 | parazyd | but why are you grepping for LXC ? |
| 18:30.11 | Vall | does it make sense, to have the python library but not the package it would interface with? |
| 18:30.20 | Vall | just to avoid all the LXDE trash |
| 18:30.34 | Vall | but I also did that: apt-cache search LXD | grep -v LXDE |
| 18:30.57 | Vall | and apt-cache -t jessie-backports search LXD | grep -v LXDE |
| 18:31.09 | Vall | with the same results, ie, no "lxd" package... |
| 18:31.42 | parazyd | it's in a ppa |
| 18:31.42 | parazyd | https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-lxc/+archive/lxd-stable |
| 18:31.42 | parazyd | dunno if that's usable for you |
| 18:31.43 | parazyd | i guess you could grab the .deb |
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| 18:32.15 | parazyd | or just compile from source, it's quick |
| 18:32.19 | Vall | OK |
| 18:32.56 | Vall | perhaps it would be better to follow my minimalistic instincts and avoid lxd altogether ;-) |
| 18:33.09 | DPA | jaromil: There is a link at https://devuan.org/os/documentation/install-on-a-virtual-machine in the Vagrant section. The link https://files.devuan.org/devuan_jessie_rc/virtual/devuan_jessie_1.0.0-RC_amd64_vagrant.box should be https://files.devuan.org/devuan_jessie/virtual/devuan_jessie_1.0.0_amd64_vagrant.box |
| 18:33.55 | parazyd | Vall: i'd rather not. it's damn useful |
| 18:34.10 | Vall | I just have to find a "how to" on making an LXC image using only the traditional lxc tools |
| 18:34.26 | Vall | parazyd: can you be more specific? |
| 18:35.18 | parazyd | remote image databases, downloading of remote images, customizing your own out of existing ones, importing, easy networking... |
| 18:35.27 | parazyd | the list goes on |
| 18:35.57 | parazyd | also most of the lxc2 documentation will involve lxd (which provides the binary called 'lxc') |
| 18:37.23 | Vall | I understand now |
| 18:37.31 | Vall | thanks for the explanations, parazyd |
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| 18:37.50 | parazyd | sure |
| 18:37.57 | Vall | strange that such a useful program isn't even in jessie-backports |
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| 18:38.31 | parazyd | fwiw you could maintain it for devuan :p |
| 18:38.45 | parazyd | just take the sources from the ubuntu ppa |
| 18:44.17 | Vall | parazyd: it's an idea... |
| 18:44.47 | Vall | it would also serve as an introduction to the art of making and maintaining DEBs... |
| 18:45.05 | Vall | and a way for me to contribute something apart from donations to the Devuan project |
| 18:45.15 | Vall | It's a tempting idea |
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| 18:59.10 | Vall | OK, so I find the source for LXD: https://github.com/lxc/lxd |
| 18:59.45 | Vall | interesting to see it's an official project from the linuxcontainers.org folks |
| 19:01.15 | parazyd | yep. it's a supplement to lxc2 |
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| 19:09.58 | Vall | And it sucks to have these ubuntu jerks doing the only available PPA... :-/ |
| 19:11.22 | AlexLikeRock_ | LOL |
| 19:15.43 | Vall | The ideal thing for the novice (I know, I'm one ;-)) would be to have a Devuan container image available for download on the official LXC image server |
| 19:16.33 | Vall | having a look at /usr/share/lxc/templates/lxc-download here... |
| 19:17.33 | enyc | ok nwhtas' the state of devuan ascii ? |
| 19:24.38 | golinux | DPA the page with the broken link is obsolete;. The correct link is https://devuan.org/os/documentation/install |
| 19:26.10 | DPA | ok. Maybe a redirect would make sense. |
| 19:26.34 | golinux | Agreed but I have no control over that (or would have been fixed by now) |
| 19:27.08 | golinux | It's frustrating . . . |
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| 19:46.26 | enyc | but but but but but |
| 19:55.07 | zyliwax | does devuan offer live media with hardened kernel, --or-- does devuan offer hardened kernel in its standard repos? |
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| 20:24.46 | unknown___ | wanted to try gnuinos in live mode but not succeeded, but it should work..? |
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| 20:29.59 | fsmithred | unknown___, yes, I've booted gnuinos isos before. What happened? |
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| 20:33.04 | unknown___ | simply copied the iso to usb, then loaded live kernel vmlinuz and initrd.img then kernel panic etc |
| 20:34.11 | fsmithred | which iso |
| 20:34.13 | fsmithred | ? |
| 20:34.29 | unknown___ | Gnuinos-2-Beta_2016.10-OpenBox_i386.iso |
| 20:34.55 | fsmithred | is there a newer one to try? |
| 20:35.47 | unknown___ | afaik no |
| 20:36.06 | unknown___ | but maybe i made something wrong, im new to this... |
| 20:37.05 | fsmithred | how did you copy to usb? |
| 20:37.40 | unknown___ | i believe there is a filesystem problem, squashfs..? |
| 20:38.09 | fsmithred | I've dowloaded and booted that iso in the past. I don't have it now. |
| 20:38.41 | unknown___ | with Win32DiskImager.exe |
| 20:40.00 | fsmithred | never used that one. You know it works with other isohybrids? |
| 20:41.35 | unknown___ | no i dont, how can i determine? |
| 20:42.07 | fsmithred | I guess find some accounts of people using it for linux isos. |
| 20:44.17 | unknown___ | simply copy is not enough for isohybrid? |
| 20:44.25 | fsmithred | nope |
| 20:44.52 | fsmithred | you now have a usb with a file named guininos-(something).iso |
| 20:45.05 | fsmithred | instead of a directory structure containing many files |
| 20:45.33 | fsmithred | unless that app doesn't just copy the file |
| 20:45.39 | fsmithred | what's on the usb? |
| 20:47.35 | unknown___ | cant access it with explorer, wants to format it... |
| 20:48.06 | fsmithred | doesn't see it as a cdrom? |
| 20:49.28 | unknown___ | so there are tools like pendrivelinux which one works here..? |
| 20:49.56 | fsmithred | I don't know what works on windows |
| 20:50.02 | unknown___ | i see a drive letter |
| 20:50.03 | fsmithred | on linux, use dd |
| 20:50.16 | unknown___ | but dd is copy..? |
| 20:50.51 | fsmithred | dd is a bit-by-bit copy to the device, not a file-copy to a partition that has a filesystem |
| 20:53.32 | fsmithred | if you just want to check it out, boot the iso in virtualbox or something like that |
| 20:53.45 | unknown___ | i tried pendrivelinux tool, there is a dd command |
| 20:54.00 | fsmithred | that probably works |
| 20:54.04 | zyliwax | unknown___: i believe cygwin comes with dd |
| 20:54.15 | zyliwax | or offers it in its "repo" |
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| 20:56.20 | unknown___ | lets assume i have the usb stick with dd copied correctly |
| 20:56.28 | unknown___ | i mean i see the grub menu |
| 21:00.00 | fsmithred | grub menu or isolinux menu? |
| 21:00.43 | fsmithred | to get to an editable boot entry, do you need to press TAB or e? |
| 21:01.05 | unknown___ | it looks like grub how can i see that? |
| 21:01.10 | unknown___ | one moment |
| 21:03.00 | unknown___ | e to edit the commands, c for a command line.. i can read here |
| 21:03.32 | fsmithred | you have uefi hardware? |
| 21:03.45 | unknown___ | run free run gnu.. in the background |
| 21:03.47 | unknown___ | no |
| 21:05.00 | fsmithred | that's weird |
| 21:05.08 | unknown___ | if i wanna load os..a lot of error(s): disk not found |
| 21:05.30 | fsmithred | what are the choices in the boot menu? |
| 21:06.28 | unknown___ | search isolinux menu |
| 21:06.42 | unknown___ | and so on, like in grub2 |
| 21:07.07 | fsmithred | huh? |
| 21:07.17 | fsmithred | no, the menu items |
| 21:07.25 | fsmithred | does it say something like |
| 21:07.27 | fsmithred | Install |
| 21:07.31 | fsmithred | Advanced Options |
| 21:07.40 | fsmithred | gnuinos-live |
| 21:07.57 | unknown___ | no |
| 21:08.37 | fsmithred | maybe it was a bad download. Did you check md5sum? |
| 21:09.23 | fsmithred | you are describing what you see when you boot the usb and get to the boot menu? |
| 21:10.19 | unknown___ | ok i have libreboot than i enter 'search isolinux menu (usb)' |
| 21:11.05 | unknown___ | then he loads the run free run gnu image in the background but it is still grub afaik |
| 21:11.39 | fsmithred | can you get it to chainload the isolinux menu? |
| 21:12.06 | unknown___ | how can i do that`? |
| 21:12.13 | fsmithred | no idea |
| 21:12.36 | fsmithred | the isolinux menu would have the boot commands you need to boot into a live session |
| 21:12.49 | fsmithred | where is libreboot? On your hard drive? |
| 21:13.18 | unknown___ | libreboot is the bios |
| 21:13.25 | fsmithred | oh |
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| 21:13.40 | fsmithred | can you select a boot device? |
| 21:13.48 | fsmithred | and select the usb? |
| 21:14.26 | fsmithred | aitor are you out there? could use your help right now. |
| 21:14.34 | unknown___ | as i mentioned a lot earlier i made the commands set root='usb0,msdos1' |
| 21:14.58 | unknown___ | linux /live/vmlinuz |
| 21:15.04 | unknown___ | initrd /live/initrd.img |
| 21:15.09 | unknown___ | boot |
| 21:15.28 | fsmithred | you don't need to set root for live |
| 21:15.43 | fsmithred | but you do need to add 'boot=live' to the linux line |
| 21:16.09 | unknown___ | then he hangs with a lot errors and kernel panic and so on |
| 21:16.25 | zyliwax | unknown___: libreboot can support loading an isolinux config from usb |
| 21:16.38 | fsmithred | there's no way to get a list of bootable devices and choose one? |
| 21:16.49 | fsmithred | how do you normally boot from a CD or DVD? |
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| 21:17.02 | aitor | hi |
| 21:17.03 | fsmithred | hi |
| 21:17.05 | zyliwax | unknown___: i had no issue booting my devuan usb stick using its menu option to the effect of "Load ISOLINUX configuration (USB)" |
| 21:17.09 | aitor | i was having dinner |
| 21:17.25 | fsmithred | unknown___, put gnuinos on usb and is trying to boot using libreboot |
| 21:17.38 | aitor | i'm downloading the iso, and i'll test it aain |
| 21:17.43 | fsmithred | sorry to disturb your dinner |
| 21:17.53 | fsmithred | thanks |
| 21:17.54 | aitor | i finished :) |
| 21:20.36 | unknown___ | fsmithred, the thing is libreboot seems to have a stricter boot 'standard', so no it doesnt load automatically |
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| 21:21.47 | zyliwax | unknown___: my bad, i had assumed you were booting devuan proper, but if gnuinos or whatever else you are booting uses isolinux, that option i mentioned should still work |
| 21:22.30 | zyliwax | unknown___: there is also an option for loading grub config from usb if your boot image uses grub |
| 21:23.13 | fsmithred | I'm pretty sure it uses isolinux |
| 21:23.24 | minnesotags | Centurion_Dan, I've never experienced the dropped ssh sessions you describe. |
| 21:23.27 | zyliwax | unknown___: lastly, i would try using different usb ports on your system, i've sometimes seen grub flash weird EHCI errors on various ports |
| 21:23.53 | unknown___ | zyliway, libreboot startet devuan and others on the same port without problems but not gnuinos, so maybe i dont have all the commands |
| 21:24.33 | unknown___ | zyliwax sry |
| 21:25.12 | zyliwax | unknown___: no worries about the nick typo -- you've got me curious now, i've never used or even heard of gnuinos before so i want to try booting the media now |
| 21:25.35 | zyliwax | I'm not sure what libreboot system you have but i will do my best |
| 21:25.39 | *** join/#devuan Centurion_Dan2 (~Thunderbi@office.centurion.net.nz) |
| 21:26.29 | aitor | zyliwax, the iso is a bit old, i'll build the definitivew release base on Devuan-1.0.0 this summer |
| 21:26.57 | aitor | first i want to finish some applications in Gtk and learn how Amprolla works |
| 21:27.10 | zyliwax | aitor: no worries, perhaps my testing will be of assistance to you nonetheless |
| 21:27.38 | zyliwax | unknown___: what is the name of the gnuinos media are you attempting to boot from libreboot? |
| 21:28.59 | aitor | gnuinos is isohybrid |
| 21:29.06 | unknown___ | zyliwax, Gnuinos-2-Beta_2016.10-OpenBox_i386.iso |
| 21:29.13 | minnesotags | I would prefer documentation with footnotes over one written in crayon. |
| 21:29.38 | unixman | gets out his red crayon |
| 21:30.00 | unknown___ | is it enough for isohybrid to dd it to usb stick? |
| 21:30.02 | zyliwax | ooh i wonder if the x86 nature of that is causing issues |
| 21:34.34 | zyliwax | i'd like to ask again if devuan offers hardened kernels in its installs and/or live media, i'm particularly interested about the status of grsecurity/pax |
| 21:35.07 | furrywolf | I've never heard of this, so I'm going to go with "no". |
| 21:36.02 | aitor | HEADS offers grsec |
| 21:36.30 | parazyd | heads forces you through tor by default though |
| 21:36.41 | parazyd | and it's not a packaged kernel, but rather a custom build |
| 21:37.35 | parazyd | in any case, grsec 'support' is dead, so you better forget that |
| 21:37.41 | zyliwax | yeah :( |
| 21:38.07 | parazyd | minipli's backporting the final patch for 4.9 until the LTS is over |
| 21:38.15 | parazyd | but that's that. |
| 21:38.42 | parazyd | (not that anyone here cares about this kind of stuff) |
| 21:39.25 | fsmithred | linux-image-4.9.0-2-grsec-amd64 is in jessie-backports |
| 21:39.57 | zyliwax | i had the impression that grsecurity saw wide/standard usage in highly-accessed public-facing systems, like commerce and banking websites |
| 21:40.08 | *** join/#devuan amphi (~amphi@222.red-81-32-135.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) |
| 21:40.21 | zyliwax | although i guess they are also more likely to be paying customers so that decision will not affect them |
| 21:40.25 | parazyd | OVH used to maintain an unofficial port |
| 21:40.56 | parazyd | there are very few paying customers for grsec at the moment |
| 21:41.02 | zyliwax | really i'm interested in system hardening in general, grsecurity or not (and it seems like "not" it will have to be) |
| 21:41.39 | parazyd | there you will have whatever is upstreamed to mainline (which i'm again sure de??an won't enable by default) |
| 21:41.55 | parazyd | and you have userspace hardening (with gcc; which i bet also won't happen by default) |
| 21:42.25 | parazyd | gcc6 is supposed to to default PIE and SSP. i'm not yet sure what debian is doing with it though |
| 21:42.32 | parazyd | s/to to/to do/ |
| 21:43.15 | zyliwax | unknown___: i made a usb of that iso using dd if=that.iso of=/dev/sdx conv=sync,noerror,notrunc bs=4M and tried booting it on libreboot just now |
| 21:43.57 | zyliwax | unknown___: using the "Search ISOLINUX menu (USB) [u]" option, i got the message "error:n no video mode activated." |
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| 21:44.28 | zyliwax | unknown___: it is worth noting i am using txtmode libreboot, which does not activate the framebuffer |
| 21:46.31 | unknown___ | zyliwax, ah ok, but you have no problems booting devuan..? |
| 21:47.07 | aitor | see you tomorrow, time to bed... |
| 21:50.26 | *** join/#devuan Latr_work_ (~Latrwork@207.218.29.129) |
| 21:50.34 | Latr_work_ | good evening |
| 21:50.41 | Latr_work_ | or buona notte I should say |
| 21:50.58 | Latr_work_ | I am here with a stupid question, if I can |
| 21:51.36 | Latr_work_ | I got a APU2C4 with two WLE200NX wlan cards and I want to make an home router, AP, fw all in one |
| 21:51.57 | Latr_work_ | is the wireless stack and atheros driver the same, or as good as on debian itself? |
| 21:52.02 | zyliwax | unknown___: i had no problems booting devuan desktop-live x64 (i can get more precise name if you want) |
| 21:52.25 | fsmithred | Latr_work_, I think it's all unchanged from debian |
| 21:52.47 | unknown___ | zyliwax, so does it not work because of libreboot or is it possible to manually load it via grub |
| 21:52.49 | Latr_work_ | sweet |
| 21:53.05 | Latr_work_ | and jessie is stable right? and is receiving updates? |
| 21:53.26 | parazyd | usually the rule of thumb is: if it works on debian without systemd, it works the same on devuan |
| 21:53.40 | parazyd | Latr_work_: yup, updates for as long as the LTS lasts |
| 21:53.51 | zyliwax | unknown___: i imagine it does not work for me because i am using a txtmode libreboot |
| 21:54.08 | zyliwax | unknown___: without any other context it's quite possible that this is not the only problem |
| 21:54.14 | fsmithred | yes, stable, LTR |
| 21:54.26 | fsmithred | no, LTS |
| 21:55.55 | unknown___ | zyliwax, why do u use txtmode? |
| 21:56.32 | zyliwax | unknown___: i prefer it for its ability to show memtest results |
| 21:57.19 | zyliwax | i was also unable to read the screen against the supplied background of the vesafb image |
| 21:57.45 | Latr_work_ | parazyd: well I haven't tried on Debian but as far as I know it should have a fairly good support driver and wireless wise |
| 21:57.58 | Latr_work_ | btw who's Italian here? |
| 21:58.03 | Latr_work_ | are you all? |
| 21:58.04 | parazyd | not me |
| 21:58.32 | unknown___ | zyliwax, not important but do u know how i can change the background image? |
| 21:59.17 | Latr_work_ | oh thats cool |
| 21:59.32 | zyliwax | unknown___: you'll have to replace it in the rom's cbfs |
| 22:00.15 | zyliwax | unknown___: actually that is another part of why i didn't want to use vesafb, i suffered an unbootable system just from trying to change the background image :> |
| 22:00.39 | Latr_work_ | I honestly don't trust my own people, but hey, Ill give it a go |
| 22:01.57 | unknown___ | zyliwax, oh..i take the question back..;) |
| 22:03.07 | zyliwax | unknown___: your original about gnuinos or just about background image? (i would not like to dissuade you from using vesafb if you so desire, for all i know this could have been a pebkac error) |
| 22:04.12 | *** join/#devuan matlock (~matlock@24.96.131.20) |
| 22:06.04 | unknown___ | zyliwax, wanted to boot gnuinos originally but seems to be a dead end street |
| 22:06.09 | zyliwax | unknown___: yesh i tried booting your iso image from libreboot's qemu image but using my vesafb image just corrupts the screen, so i'm afraid i can't help you |
| 22:12.53 | Latr_work_ | oh btw a desktop related questions. Does devuan support Gnome 3? |
| 22:13.11 | Latr_work_ | in the case I would like to try it on my x230 |
| 22:15.06 | fsmithred | no gnome |
| 22:16.07 | Latr_work_ | sigh |
| 22:16.16 | Latr_work_ | kde5? |
| 22:16.16 | fsmithred | xfce, lxde, mate from the installer. I think some are using kde with a little work. |
| 22:16.26 | fsmithred | is 5 in jessie? |
| 22:16.30 | fsmithred | I thought it was 4 |
| 22:17.33 | fsmithred | yeah, 5:84 in jessie 5:92 in ascii/ceres |
| 22:17.42 | parazyd | kde5/plasma works in ascii |
| 22:17.46 | parazyd | somewhat |
| 22:17.52 | Latr_work_ | glad to know |
| 22:18.16 | parazyd | there's permissions issueswith the lockscreen and with power (shutdown/reboot/etc) |
| 22:18.17 | Latr_work_ | I know funtoo and gentoo do have a overlay patch for gnome 3 systemdless |
| 22:18.39 | parazyd | yeah they made it work with openrc |
| 22:18.43 | parazyd | never tried it though |
| 22:18.45 | zyliwax | void also has gnome apparently though i've not tested it myself |
| 22:18.52 | Latr_work_ | but I dont have the time to compile the whole stuff |
| 22:19.13 | parazyd | gentoo or gnome? |
| 22:19.37 | unknown___ | zyliwax, btw have u ever updated libreboot? or equal risky.. |
| 22:20.08 | Latr_work_ | gnome as well as each and every heavy packages |
| 22:20.30 | parazyd | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:20.31 | parazyd | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:20.35 | parazyd | :D |
| 22:20.49 | zyliwax | unknown___: i have done version bumps and other upgrades before, some of which have required using external flasher to resolve |
| 22:21.14 | zyliwax | unknown___: keeping to txtmode and simple grub config updates i've had nothing but smooth sailing using internal flashing |
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| 22:35.59 | unknown___ | zyliwax, so if there are lot of boot errors, what main problem could that be? is libreboot the problem or am i doin something wrong? |
| 22:38.02 | Latr_work_ | parazyd: thats exactly what I dont need :) |
| 22:38.47 | zyliwax | unknown___: reading your first messages seems to indicate that you are getting into gnuinos just fine (otherwise you wouldn't be having a kernel panic) |
| 22:39.11 | zyliwax | unknown___: could you clarify what happens when you attempt to boot gnuinos? |
| 22:40.35 | unknown___ | zyliwax, mount: cant find /root in /etc/fstab |
| 22:41.42 | unknown___ | zyliwax, target filesystem doesnt have requested /sbin/init |
| 22:42.15 | unknown___ | zyliwax, cant access tty |
| 22:42.58 | unknown___ | zyliwax, then it halts, if i press enter 'initramfs' appears |
| 22:43.30 | zyliwax | unknown___: how are you attempting to boot gnuinos from libreboot? |
| 22:44.20 | unknown___ | zyliwax, loading vmlinuz and initrd.img per hand |
| 22:46.48 | unknown___ | zyliwax, as it is written here -> https://libreboot.org/docs/gnulinux/ grub_boot_installer.html#debian-or-devuan-net-install |
| 22:47.06 | unknown___ | zyliwax, as it is written here -> https://libreboot.org/docs/gnulinux/grub_boot_installer.html#debian-or-devuan-net-install |
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| 23:30.50 | zyliwax | unknown___: i would highly recommend simply using the "Search ISOLINUX menu (USB) [u]" option to attempt booting your gnuinos device |
| 23:31.00 | zyliwax | instead of doing it manually |
| 23:36.59 | *** join/#devuan IoFran (~Thunderbi@189.231.114.120) |
| 23:38.51 | unknown___ | zyliwax, that doesnt work, no error nothing |
| 23:39.55 | zyliwax | unknown___: you're on vesafb? |
| 23:40.58 | unknown___ | zyliwax, i dont know, where can i see this? |
| 23:41.15 | zyliwax | unknown___: do you have a background image or is your libreboot rather "plain" looking? |
| 23:42.33 | unknown___ | zyliwax, i have a background image |
| 23:46.58 | *** join/#devuan Vall (~Vall@2602:ffda:ccc:1::d2fe:5848) |
| 23:49.50 | zyliwax | unknown___: yeah you're on vesafb |
| 23:50.30 | zyliwax | based on my error and your inability to launch the iso, i'm guessing there's something that should be on the boot line for gnuinos but isn't |
| 23:51.18 | zyliwax | unknown___: aitor said they're going to try updating the distro but perhaps you can roll with regular devuan until then? |
| 23:53.33 | Xenguy | Hrm, that's twice in a few days that my audio system just cut out, no idea why |
| 23:53.45 | Xenguy | I wonder if it's a MATE thing, or ...? |
| 23:54.09 | Xenguy | Running Devuan Jessie |
| 23:54.45 | Xenguy | Audio cut out while I was watching video via VLC, in this case |
| 23:55.07 | Xenguy | Icon disappears from the tray |
| 23:55.34 | Xenguy | How do I re-initialize audio without rebooting, anyone know? |
| 23:56.53 | unknown___ | zyliwax, if its a boot line problem an updated distro wont solve the problem for me, however i hope this distro will get more attention and support |
