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| 00:20.36 | *** topic/#devuan is Recent (2017-05-25): Jessie 1.0.0 stable release http://ur1.ca/qxaa5 | https://devuan.org/ discussion channel (logged at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan - with useful 'search') | Please take off-topic conversation to #debianfork | /msg chanserv info #devuan | !listkeys #devuan <foo> | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ |
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| 00:35.50 | yarddog | ok, i rebooted, and it only booted into a text mode, i needed to manually startx, how do i get this to auto go to x again? |
| 00:38.04 | golinux | __stephen: good catch! I'll go correct it now but rely on someome else to load on the server. |
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| 00:43.52 | Xenguy | yarddog: What's the context here, aka your general situation? |
| 00:44.28 | Xenguy | (I may have arrived late) |
| 00:44.35 | yarddog | i rebooted, it went to a text login, i logged in, and needed to startx to get back to the gui |
| 00:45.42 | yarddog | when i go to reboot/log out, the only option is logout, the rest are greyed out |
| 00:46.06 | Xenguy | Is this after a fresh install? Or were you experiencing other symptoms or problems? |
| 00:46.20 | Xenguy | Is this Devuan stable? |
| 00:46.31 | yarddog | yes |
| 00:46.40 | yarddog | with 4.0.9 |
| 00:47.00 | Xenguy | Which desktop BTW |
| 00:47.01 | Xenguy | ? |
| 00:47.11 | yarddog | xfce |
| 00:47.33 | Xenguy | huh |
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| 00:47.51 | Xenguy | Do you think something went wrong during the installation? |
| 00:48.20 | Xenguy | Cos it seems like an irregular outcome somehow |
| 00:48.52 | gnarface | well, expected behavior for a minimal install if he didn't know to manuall install a graphical login manager |
| 00:48.54 | gnarface | ... |
| 00:48.59 | Xenguy | If it's fresh, maybe just reinstall? |
| 00:49.15 | gnarface | (or rather, perhaps didn't know that it was a separate package) |
| 00:49.32 | Xenguy | aha |
| 00:57.34 | Xenguy | yarddog: So maybe smth as simple as: apt-get install xfwm4 |
| 00:57.37 | Xenguy | ? |
| 00:57.58 | Xenguy | also maybe: apt-get install slim |
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| 02:30.53 | yarddog | any advantage to the grsec kernel? |
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| 03:10.19 | gnarface | yarddog: as a desktop end-user, probably not |
| 03:11.04 | gnarface | yarddog: i mean, there is a theoretial advantage, but probably not one that will benefit your use case more than the potential compatibility issues it could incur |
| 03:11.56 | gnarface | yarddog: for a public servers though, i'd say there is a good argument in favor of it |
| 03:12.17 | gnarface | (especially if you have to run untrusted code supplied by your users) |
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| 03:21.26 | yarddog | gotcha thanks |
| 03:21.35 | yarddog | i was wondering |
| 03:21.38 | gnarface | yarddog: mind you, feel free to try it. there shouldn't really be any harm in installing it and booting it. you should be able to leave the other kernels installed too and just choose one at boot |
| 03:21.43 | yarddog | with the privacy crap |
| 03:21.55 | gnarface | yarddog: i don't want my statements to be misconstrued as advising against security |
| 03:22.02 | gnarface | a little paranoia is healthy |
| 03:22.08 | yarddog | yeah |
| 03:22.41 | gnarface | maybe not LOT, like i have. but that's a symptom of once having not enough and learning the hard way... |
| 03:22.47 | yarddog | i dont know where you are, but i'm in the US, and i dont trust anything our govt is doing right now privacy wise |
| 03:22.53 | yarddog | yep |
| 03:22.59 | gnarface | i'm in the US too |
| 03:23.09 | gnarface | i'm one of those looney people who have been claiming this was happening for 20 years |
| 03:23.11 | yarddog | so you know |
| 03:23.19 | yarddog | heh |
| 03:23.21 | gnarface | yea i know |
| 03:23.31 | gnarface | my advice to you is to get really good with openvpn and openssh |
| 03:23.36 | yarddog | i dont even know how to install that kernel to be honest |
| 03:23.56 | yarddog | yeah i have a openvpn and tor as well |
| 03:28.49 | gnarface | i'd also strongly recommend against wireless unless you're in control of the DNS server |
| 03:29.02 | gnarface | just in general |
| 03:29.12 | gnarface | radio signals are too easy to hijack |
| 03:29.40 | yarddog | i agree |
| 03:29.51 | yarddog | ethernet ++ |
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| 06:53.57 | parazyd | https://pub.parazyd.cf/dev/random/1496291112757.png |
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| 07:58.54 | Centurion_Dan | parazyd: what's it running on?? |
| 07:59.07 | parazyd | nokia n900, it says so :) |
| 08:05.23 | ryuujin | oh... wow :) |
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| 08:07.49 | parazyd | it also runs relatively fast, except for firefox - which tends to run out of memory |
| 08:08.17 | parazyd | caveat of firefox, they alloc a shitload of ram on glibc |
| 08:14.53 | cocoadaemon | DevuanPhone is the future |
| 08:15.54 | parazyd | yup |
| 08:16.11 | buZz | parazyd: so cute |
| 08:16.24 | cocoadaemon | parazyd, gonna try to burn a heads tonight |
| 08:16.27 | buZz | i should get xorg working aswell :P |
| 08:16.48 | parazyd | buZz: will save you some time: http://blog.rot13.org/2013/12/touch-screen-configuration-using-xinput.html |
| 08:17.27 | cocoadaemon | side note : always surprized to not find ISO via torrent, as I assume this is a decent way to ensure checksuming |
| 08:17.41 | cocoadaemon | I was reading te |
| 08:17.44 | cocoadaemon | oops |
| 08:17.54 | BadSector | any consumer oriented computing machine released the last decade that can run linux will be fast with most window managers that are not GNOME 3 or KDE 4+ |
| 08:17.58 | parazyd | buZz: xorg is inverted by default for some reason on the n900 touchscreen |
| 08:18.02 | BadSector | until the moment they meet the web |
| 08:18.12 | BadSector | or at least any modern web browser |
| 08:18.28 | parazyd | cocoadaemon: indeed, i could provide that. but i have more important stuff to do atm |
| 08:18.39 | parazyd | also they are gpg signed at least... so i got that going :D |
| 08:18.47 | cocoadaemon | I was using the Tails web install tutorial (which is pretty cool) and they go the long way of verifying GPG |
| 08:19.00 | BadSector | elinks, lynx, dillo and perhaps netsurf should be fine though |
| 08:19.00 | cocoadaemon | sure, just a side note, FWIW |
| 08:19.10 | parazyd | my tails download UX tas terrible |
| 08:19.15 | parazyd | *was terrible |
| 08:19.28 | parazyd | i just want do download the damn iso with wget! |
| 08:19.32 | parazyd | haha |
| 08:19.42 | buZz | parazyd: yeah i noticed that already on .. something, cant remember :P |
| 08:19.43 | parazyd | had to go through 4-5 pages |
| 08:19.56 | parazyd | buZz: maybe #maemo when i pasted it :) |
| 08:19.58 | buZz | and xorg touchinput calibration is a fine art :P |
| 08:19.59 | cocoadaemon | ah, right. Well, I guess they missed that easy target. |
| 08:20.17 | parazyd | buZz: some values here: https://pub.parazyd.cf/N900/merlijnsdocs.txt |
| 08:28.55 | cocoadaemon | it's odd. My ascii debootstrap can apt-get update, but refuses to install. Passed your conf patches parazyd, but still got a "Waiting for headers" in the chroot |
| 08:31.29 | parazyd | what does an strace say? |
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| 09:02.55 | negev | is there any reason apparmor wouldn't work properly on devuan? |
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| 09:06.56 | gnarface | what happened? |
| 09:07.11 | gnarface | negev: what did it do? |
| 09:07.29 | negev | kept denying something that i'm pretty sure was explicitly allowed |
| 09:07.45 | negev | tried putting the profile into complain mode but it didn't seem to generate any complain messages in syslog |
| 09:09.57 | gnarface | maybe a basic permissions issue? |
| 09:10.57 | gnarface | what was it something to do with device access? |
| 09:11.02 | gnarface | a usb device perhaps? |
| 09:11.29 | gnarface | if you switched from a systemd based distro, some of that behavior does change |
| 09:11.36 | gnarface | at least, the default behaviors change |
| 09:11.41 | gnarface | (you can still change it) |
| 09:11.54 | gnarface | brb |
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| 09:24.52 | gnarface | sorry about that, i'm back |
| 09:25.20 | Digit | no apology required. :) |
| 09:25.26 | negev | gnarface it was exim trying to lock files in its spool directory, fairly simply, i copied the profile from a ubuntu box where it works fine |
| 09:25.59 | gnarface | yikes |
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| 09:26.44 | gnarface | well that's not the solution i would have recommended necessarily, but if you're satisfied with it then that's fine with me |
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| 10:00.09 | cocoadaemon | parazyd, http://paste.debian.net/957897/ |
| 10:01.10 | cocoadaemon | and WIFSTOPPED does *not* mean my wifi is stopped, as I analyzed in a first, naive, way |
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| 10:01.50 | cocoadaemon | Wait IF STOPPED |
| 10:06.55 | cocoadaemon | Well, apparently, you do need to mount proc for apt install to work... Stupid me. |
| 10:07.47 | parazyd | hehe |
| 10:07.59 | parazyd | thought that was common knowledge |
| 10:08.07 | parazyd | you also need to --rbind mount /dev |
| 10:11.32 | _moep_ | hey, whats the best way to install a newer linux-base? |
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| 10:15.31 | _moep_ | I have to use a newer kernel, but thats not possible without a newer linux-base |
| 10:15.59 | parazyd | define 'newer' |
| 10:16.37 | _moep_ | linux-image-4.9.0-0.bpo.3-amd64 : Depends: linux-base (>= 4.3~) but 3.5 is to be installed |
| 10:17.56 | parazyd | hmm, other folks have successfully installed the backports kernel... |
| 10:19.07 | _moep_ | which backport? |
| 10:20.15 | parazyd | the jessie-backports repository |
| 10:20.21 | parazyd | where you're getting that package from |
| 10:21.27 | _moep_ | I jessie bpo |
| 10:21.48 | _moep_ | deb http://httpredir.debian.org/debian jessie-backports main contrib |
| 10:22.24 | parazyd | use http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged |
| 10:23.17 | KatolaZ | _moep_: you shouldn't mix debian repos and devuan ones.... |
| 10:23.29 | _moep_ | parazyd: is it this? deb http://ch.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ jessie-security main contrib non-free |
| 10:23.33 | parazyd | yup |
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| 10:23.58 | _moep_ | but I only seer a newer kernel with the bpo repo |
| 10:24.30 | KatolaZ | _moep_: ypu should use devuan's backports... |
| 10:24.59 | _moep_ | where can I find them? |
| 10:25.01 | KatolaZ | deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ jessie-backports main |
| 10:25.40 | KatolaZ | https://devuan.org/os/debian-fork/stable-jessie-announce-052517 |
| 10:25.44 | KatolaZ | also mentioned there ^^^^ |
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| 10:27.31 | _moep_ | but I get the same problem |
| 10:29.26 | _moep_ | linux-image-4.9.0-0.bpo.2-amd64 : Depends: linux-base (>= 4.3~) but 3.5 is to be installed |
| 10:30.30 | fsmithred | _moep_, how are you trying to install the kernel? linux-base should automatically come with it |
| 10:32.00 | _moep_ | just apt install linux-image-and-so-on |
| 10:32.30 | fsmithred | apt-get -t jessie-backport install <packages> |
| 10:32.41 | fsmithred | backports, not backport |
| 10:33.17 | _moep_ | ahh |
| 10:33.52 | fsmithred | better? |
| 10:33.57 | _moep_ | yes works |
| 10:33.59 | parazyd | apt-get install covfefe |
| 10:34.09 | _moep_ | whats covfefe? |
| 10:34.18 | parazyd | a new viral meme :D |
| 10:34.23 | buZz | :D |
| 10:34.30 | parazyd | buZz: https://twitter.com/AmirAminiMD/status/870026552406188032 |
| 10:34.49 | buZz | :D :D :D |
| 10:34.58 | parazyd | i'm dying :D |
| 10:35.01 | parazyd | https://twitter.com/TropicalJordan/status/870167491569496064 |
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| 10:35.34 | buZz | we should make a furry version of pepe |
| 10:35.39 | buZz | and call it fefe |
| 10:35.44 | buZz | then make it covert |
| 10:35.54 | parazyd | it's like pepe, just more rapey |
| 10:35.57 | parazyd | lol |
| 10:37.32 | buZz | yeah, furry :D |
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| 11:11.28 | jaromil | ahah |
| 11:17.58 | jaromil | lol https://twitter.com/jaromil/status/870237824037081088 |
| 11:18.01 | jaromil | couldn't resist |
| 11:18.11 | jaromil | this the best https://twitter.com/hordstar/status/870223436882300928 |
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| 11:31.40 | parazyd | jaromil: https://pub.parazyd.cf/tmp/screenshots/screenshot27.png |
| 11:32.17 | jaromil | 8uuu |
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| 11:34.36 | jaromil | its a us meme anyway |
| 11:34.40 | jaromil | there is little response in this timezone |
| 11:39.20 | cocoadaemon | so coverage, much trump |
| 11:40.29 | cocoadaemon | parazyd, OMG rbind, it exists |
| 11:40.37 | cocoadaemon | no more dev/pts |
| 11:40.40 | parazyd | :) |
| 11:40.45 | parazyd | also, umount -R |
| 11:41.16 | cocoadaemon | that's cool too |
| 11:41.48 | cocoadaemon | also, I really need to remember mounting dev proc sys read-only unless necessary |
| 11:42.19 | parazyd | hehe |
| 11:42.26 | parazyd | caused me a need to reboot a few times |
| 11:42.36 | cocoadaemon | twice did I rm -rf a faulty mount ... and covfefed my /dev |
| 11:42.48 | parazyd | yep |
| 11:43.45 | cocoadaemon | well, I must admit I didn't expect mount to be so featureful |
| 11:48.47 | parazyd | well it's gnu |
| 11:48.57 | parazyd | busybox for example doesn't have this kind of stuff |
| 11:49.12 | parazyd | i mean they do, but inside -o flags |
| 11:49.29 | parazyd | -o rbind |
| 11:49.45 | yarddog | anyone know of a way to get slack to install? the group thing slack |
| 11:50.02 | yarddog | slack.com |
| 11:50.04 | nepugia | mount -o rw,remount /system most needed command on android |
| 11:50.12 | parazyd | lol |
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| 12:28.06 | __stephen | I have a device for sharing usb devices between computers, but much like a kvm, my xmodmap settings are dumped when I switch between machines... |
| 12:28.15 | __stephen | Anyone have any novel workarounds to re-run xmodmap when a keyboard is re-plugged? |
| 12:33.06 | __stephen | Actually, maybe I can ps to see which WM is running, get the user name, compute the path to the .Xauthority and just invoke it with XAUTHORITY and DISPLAY filled out... and something is still missing, testing that didn't work. |
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| 12:47.03 | KatolaZ | https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=17/05/25/2119242 |
| 12:51.24 | __stephen | Well, now I feel dirty, but I have a solution to my keyboard issue: http://paste.debian.net/958193/ |
| 12:51.48 | __stephen | I'll launch this script from my fvwm config(s). |
| 12:55.01 | parazyd | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cdEFF-ttLw |
| 13:04.02 | __stephen | If anyone comes up with a better way to detect the keyboard plug in such that it can xmodmap, let me know. (updated script: http://paste.debian.net/958255/) |
| 13:04.31 | *** join/#devuan Achylles (~Achylles@200-153-230-42.dsl.telesp.net.br) |
| 13:04.56 | gnarface | __stephen: i dunno about better, but you can hook to a script from a matching udev rule |
| 13:05.14 | __stephen | No, the udev rule wouldn't have permission... |
| 13:05.25 | __stephen | to use X |
| 13:06.10 | __stephen | I tried to manually set XAUTHORITY and DISPLAY, but that didn't seem to work... or maybe that's because I ran it from a different VT when X wasn't visible... |
| 13:14.52 | *** join/#devuan Centurion_Dan (~Thunderbi@office.centurion.net.nz) |
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| 13:44.09 | yarddog | why does devuan and debian use firefox 49 instead of 53? |
| 13:44.13 | *** join/#devuan msiism (~msi@dslb-178-005-113-217.178.005.pools.vodafone-ip.de) |
| 13:45.06 | fsmithred | it's the extended support release. That way, we get security fixes without having to change the version in a release |
| 13:47.04 | yarddog | i think mozilla will jump esr to 53 pretty soon |
| 13:47.12 | yarddog | because of tor |
| 13:47.51 | fsmithred | might not get into stretch/ascii. |
| 13:48.20 | KatolaZ | might get into ascii even if it does not get in stretch... :) |
| 13:48.23 | fsmithred | pretty sure stretch went into freeze a long time ago |
| 13:48.26 | fsmithred | yeah, true |
| 13:49.10 | gnarface | aren't firefox and firefox-esr both still in ceres? |
| 13:49.32 | yuki_is_bored | i think they're on testing as well |
| 13:49.38 | yuki_is_bored | just not on backports |
| 13:49.43 | yarddog | guess it will be 52esr |
| 13:52.09 | fsmithred | I don't see firefox-esr in ceres. There's 45.9.0esr-1 in ascii and 45.9.0esr-1~deb8u1 in jessie and jessie-security |
| 13:53.22 | gnarface | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:56.34 | fsmithred | you see it in ceres? |
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| 13:57.59 | gnarface | i might just still have it installed... |
| 13:58.30 | fsmithred | when I do apt-cache policy firefox-esr there's nothing listed for ceres. |
| 13:58.45 | fsmithred | but maybe it's something on my end, because I never see ceres in the output. |
| 13:59.23 | gnarface | hmmm |
| 13:59.31 | gnarface | still showing up on packages.debian.org too |
| 13:59.40 | *** join/#devuan moonpup (~moonpup@69.16.30.35) |
| 13:59.53 | gnarface | try iceweasel |
| 13:59.56 | gnarface | ? |
| 14:00.04 | gnarface | should be the same |
| 14:00.42 | KatolaZ | fsmithred: do you have the ceres repo enabled? |
| 14:00.53 | fsmithred | yes, I have all repos enabled |
| 14:00.58 | fsmithred | and pinned |
| 14:04.59 | *** join/#devuan furrywolf (~randyg@mfc0536d0.tmodns.net) |
| 14:05.22 | fsmithred | aha! deb lines for ceres said /devuan instead of /merged. Now it works. Same version of ff-esr in ceres and ascii |
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| 15:13.45 | brabo | sweet.. following https://devuan.org/os/documentation/dev1fanboy/Minimal-install-guide with encrypted lvm.. would i need something extra installed besides lvm2 then like dmcrypt? |
| 15:16.08 | fsmithred | brabo, cryptsetup |
| 15:16.52 | brabo | fsmithred: nice, waiting on kernel install now :) |
| 15:16.59 | brabo | thanks already |
| 15:19.30 | brabo | first devuan install on a machine of me.. i'm excited about it :) |
| 15:19.48 | KatolaZ | brabo: will be quite boring, if you come from debian :) |
| 15:20.20 | brabo | KatolaZ: yeah it is a change that isnt |
| 15:20.26 | brabo | hehe |
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| 15:47.54 | brabo | hmmm the installation of grub2 printed a lot of "device node not found" and after finishing off grub loops over "unable to find lvm volume molly-vg/root" hmmmm |
| 15:48.08 | brabo | *finishing off install and reboot |
| 15:49.53 | *** join/#devuan negev (~mark@5.148.47.146) |
| 15:50.27 | negev | hi, i installed devuan 1.0 from a fresh install of debian 8. i followed the guide but it seems i now have libsystemd0 installed, and some packages that i need are dependent on it |
| 15:50.50 | negev | specifically: fcgiwrap php5-fpm transmission-daemon |
| 15:51.07 | brabo | /dev/mapper only contains a 0 byte file named 'control' |
| 15:59.08 | zdzichu | negev: transmission issue is known - https://www.mail-archive.com/dng@lists.dyne.org/msg13556.html , but no maintaner rebuilt it --with-systemd-daemon=no |
| 16:04.49 | fsmithred | brabo, is /etc/crypttab right? |
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| 16:13.53 | brabo | fsmithred: not in the initramfs no, atm rebooted into installer console and there also no vgs.. |
| 16:15.46 | brabo | aha |
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| 16:16.50 | brabo | installer rescue mode succeeds in decrypting /dev/sda5 and mounting /dev/molly-vg/root as / |
| 16:18.08 | brabo | fsmithred: so there i do have a /etc/crypttab with 'sda5_crypt UUID=$someuuid none luks' |
| 16:20.12 | brabo | same uuid is visible in /dev/disk/by-uuid so that seems okay |
| 16:20.47 | brabo | grmbl, i have to do something with this like once every couple of years so i have no clue what i'm doing :) |
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| 16:23.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | (([2017-05-24 Wed 22:49:07] <Lydia_K> Per application volume control.)) ALSA can do that as well, and better than PolypAudio |
| 16:26.54 | negev | dzichu: is it possible for someone like me to recompile a package without the systemd dependency and submit it? |
| 16:31.39 | golinux | negev: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=549 |
| 16:33.05 | KatolaZ | negev: please also have a look at the packages already in jessie-proposed |
| 16:33.08 | zyliwax | does every flavor of devuan end up pulling in libsystemd0 or is it only pulled in as a dep for optional packages that require it? |
| 16:33.21 | KatolaZ | zyliwax: the second one |
| 16:33.31 | zyliwax | rockin' |
| 16:33.38 | KatolaZ | minimal-live doesn't have libsystemd0 |
| 16:33.43 | zyliwax | i tried doing ceres earlier but it was a mad mess in that regard |
| 16:33.46 | brabo | sooo i kindof suspect i need to install something extra on my system or so.. |
| 16:33.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually the only thing I know of that PukeAudio can do and ALSA can't is redirecting active audio streams, e.g. when pairing a BT headset while listening to music |
| 16:33.51 | KatolaZ | zyliwax: ceres is a mess |
| 16:34.02 | KatolaZ | and ascii is being catered for |
| 16:34.16 | zyliwax | KatolaZ: you pre-empted my second question, i got concerned that libsystemd0 was now standard because i saw it in the desktop-live |
| 16:34.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | and that's a rather questionable 'feature' anyway |
| 16:34.41 | zyliwax | yeah i'd like to run ascii excluding libsystemd0 if at all possible |
| 16:34.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh, and BT Bluez stuff is PA-only |
| 16:35.00 | KatolaZ | zyliwax: I am not concerned of libsystemd0 |
| 16:35.07 | KatolaZ | there are fat worse dep problems |
| 16:35.10 | KatolaZ | e.g. gconf2 |
| 16:35.23 | KatolaZ | which have much deeper effects that libsystemd0 |
| 16:35.45 | KatolaZ | (which is just a dead piece of software, since you won't get systemd running on a Devuan) |
| 16:36.17 | zyliwax | yeah come to think of it i probably am mentally overstating the impact of libsystemd0 |
| 16:36.32 | KatolaZ | logind is another problem |
| 16:36.40 | KatolaZ | which might be somehow overcome |
| 16:36.42 | KatolaZ | udev is another |
| 16:36.52 | KatolaZ | which is being dealt with through eudev |
| 16:36.54 | zyliwax | i am dreaming of a server install |
| 16:37.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | btw congrats for 1-0-stable :-) |
| 16:37.15 | KatolaZ | DocScrutinizer05: o/ |
| 16:37.18 | clemens3 | do you consider dbus also an issue? |
| 16:37.20 | KatolaZ | haven't seen you in a while |
| 16:37.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | \o KatolaZ |
| 16:37.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | been knocked out from overload |
| 16:37.40 | KatolaZ | clemens3: I dunno whethere we are in the position of considering dbus an issue |
| 16:37.46 | KatolaZ | it is an issue for me |
| 16:38.06 | KatolaZ | but unfortunately a lot of software is depending on dbus lately |
| 16:38.08 | clemens3 | me too, even thought i can less pinpoint why for me than with systemd |
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| 16:38.10 | *** join/#devuan nackox|afk (~w00t@gusl/staff/mlopez) |
| 16:38.19 | clemens3 | but i consider it also bloat |
| 16:38.27 | KatolaZ | it is bloat, in manu respects |
| 16:38.30 | KatolaZ | ~many |
| 16:38.36 | clemens3 | and also is difficult to recompile without for me |
| 16:38.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | health isn't granting infinite credit, one day you jave tio pay |
| 16:39.07 | clemens3 | cpus depends on it and everything depends on cups |
| 16:39.28 | clemens3 | cups i mean |
| 16:39.58 | KatolaZ | DocScrutinizer05: hope you are better now.. |
| 16:40.09 | KatolaZ | it's not just cups unfortunately |
| 16:40.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | recovering. Since yesterday online again |
| 16:40.18 | msiism | i'm trying to create a table showing all available locales in devuan as well as their descriptions. i'm using a bash script to do it. the only problem: some files in /usr/share/i18n/locales/ need to be excluded and i can't work that out. here's what i've got so far: http://paste.debian.net/hidden/56433883/ |
| 16:40.29 | greenjeans | KatolaZ: gconf2 wasn't ever a problem for me when it was just gconf2, it was when the dconf crap was foisted on top of it. |
| 16:40.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | KatolaZ: thanks :-) |
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| 16:42.42 | zdzichu | msiism: you try to reimplement 'locale -a -v'? |
| 16:43.07 | KatolaZ | greenjeans: and some DDs are including useless deps on gconf2 |
| 16:43.14 | KatolaZ | I have just filed a bug about that |
| 16:44.15 | KatolaZ | https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=863872 |
| 16:44.37 | msiism | zdzichu: now that you mention it, i think i do, sort of. but of course i don't, now that i know. |
| 16:44.38 | KatolaZ | this make something like grace (a program to draw x-y plots) depend on systemd |
| 16:44.46 | KatolaZ | which is STUPID |
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| 16:44.55 | zyliwax | KatolaZ: when you say libsystemd0 "is just a dead piece of software", are you saying it isn't even being utilized by the software that drags it in? |
| 16:46.04 | KatolaZ | zyliwax: if you don't have systemd running as init, libsystemd0 is useless |
| 16:46.05 | zyliwax | and if so is that due to the lack of systemd? can software even call libsystemd0 directly without systemd? if you aren't sure that's alright just curious |
| 16:46.20 | *** join/#devuan agl (~Die_Kirsc@ipb21bb0b8.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 16:47.24 | msiism | zdzichu: well, i'm looking for a way to show all generallay available locales and their description, not just the ones i'm using. |
| 16:51.15 | *** join/#devuan agl (~Die_Kirsc@ipb21bb0b8.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) |
| 16:55.04 | brabo | fsmithred: okay, i fixed it, seems initramfs lacked cryptsetup, from recover mode i added 'CRYPTSETUP=y' to initramfs.conf and updated initrams, it works now :) |
| 16:55.52 | greenjeans | Correct term I think for libsystemd in Devuan is "DUMMY package", quite apropos don't you think? ;) |
| 16:59.41 | golinux | msiism: I have uploaded the overview to the site. I solved the problem with "Langauge support Yes" |
| 17:00.14 | golinux | KatolaZ also suggested removing the < > on the file size. |
| 17:00.41 | golinux | I'll send you the final screenie, |
| 17:02.39 | msiism | golinux: ok, i'll still try to generate a decent list from a script. |
| 17:03.44 | KatolaZ | msiism: have you looked into /usr/share/i18n ? |
| 17:03.47 | golinux | Then we would have to create a new page to post it. Would be best to find an off-site source |
| 17:03.47 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 17:04.23 | msiism | KatolaZ: well, that's where my script is looking for info, yes. |
| 17:04.29 | golinux | Yes. That is where it is located. Would be nice to find an off-site link with that information. I haven't been able to find one. |
| 17:04.29 | KatolaZ | cool :) |
| 17:04.40 | KatolaZ | golinux: ? |
| 17:05.50 | golinux | I was hoping to find an 'official' document listing available locales somewhere. |
| 17:06.48 | KatolaZ | golinux: that is the "official" source |
| 17:06.51 | KatolaZ | the locales package |
| 17:07.31 | *** join/#devuan peetaur (~peter@p57AAAEB6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 17:08.00 | *** join/#devuan Capricornus (~Capricorn@94.165.59.39) |
| 17:09.39 | golinux | It requires creating another page. :( Not that I'm lazy or anything but . . . |
| 17:10.10 | Capricornus | anyone using XFCE's weather forecast applet? it isn't working for me |
| 17:11.01 | msiism | golinux: well, if the script works right, it could not only create the table, but the whole page. |
| 17:12.25 | golinux | Good luck shoehorning that into the bizarre site structure |
| 17:12.38 | KatolaZ | golinux: sorry, but a page for what? |
| 17:12.50 | golinux | It's not just simple html |
| 17:13.04 | golinux | The locales. |
| 17:13.28 | golinux | Can't we just find the content of the locales package somewhere an link to it? |
| 17:13.41 | golinux | I tried and failed. |
| 17:13.55 | agl | golinux: have a look to /etc/profile.d/locals.sh |
| 17:14.23 | Capricornus | just the forum's locales, or whole site's? |
| 17:14.40 | msiism | golinux: well, the script now works, though it's really primitive. |
| 17:15.15 | golinux | Capricornus: Language support for Jessie |
| 17:15.34 | Capricornus | ah. that's black magic for me |
| 17:15.37 | golinux | We put together a Quick Overview of specs for the website. |
| 17:15.44 | KatolaZ | oh ok |
| 17:15.55 | KatolaZ | well msiism has a script |
| 17:16.05 | KatolaZ | it should be possible to generate html form there |
| 17:16.13 | KatolaZ | shout if you need help with that |
| 17:16.39 | golinux | AsI said above . . . I solved the problem with "Language support Yes" |
| 17:17.05 | msiism | maybe someone could have a look at that script again. i'm not sure if it's entirely sane. find it here: http://paste.debian.net/hidden/7f5a8a08/ |
| 17:17.50 | msiism | i'm still kind of new to bash scripting (just so you know) |
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| 17:20.54 | golinux | doesn't want another page iun the zoo. |
| 17:22.34 | msiism | golinux: why did you omit all the lower than signs infront of the size info for available images? |
| 17:22.43 | *** join/#devuan IoFran (~Thunderbi@189.231.114.120) |
| 17:23.00 | msiism | golinux: i'd say, the info is wrong that way. |
| 17:23.17 | golinux | I emailed you that answer and also posted above. |
| 17:23.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | msiism: use `grep -v "$excludes" ` instead of " [ "$locale" != "$exclude1" ] && [[ "$locale" != "$exclude2"* ]] &&" |
| 17:23.45 | golinux | KatolaZ' suggestion that they were unnecessary |
| 17:23.51 | msiism | DocScrutinizer05: ok, thanks |
| 17:24.07 | KatolaZ | msiism: >310MB can be anything |
| 17:24.11 | KatolaZ | it could be 400MB |
| 17:24.13 | KatolaZ | 800MB |
| 17:24.15 | KatolaZ | 3GB |
| 17:24.18 | KatolaZ | anything.... |
| 17:24.31 | KatolaZ | unless you meant to use something like ~310MB |
| 17:24.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | excludes="i18n|iso14651_t1|..." |
| 17:24.35 | golinux | jaromil didn't respond to my query about his < in the opposite direction. |
| 17:24.40 | KatolaZ | which clearly means "approximately 310MB" |
| 17:24.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | egrep |
| 17:24.48 | msiism | KatolaZ: well, i meant to use "lower than" |
| 17:24.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | or grep -e |
| 17:24.54 | KatolaZ | again, <200MB can be anything |
| 17:25.03 | KatolaZ | from 1 bype to 199.99999 MB... |
| 17:25.11 | KatolaZ | it's not informative |
| 17:25.19 | KatolaZ | either we use ~ |
| 17:25.26 | KatolaZ | or we use "about" |
| 17:25.30 | KatolaZ | or nothing |
| 17:25.35 | golinux | No not the word |
| 17:25.40 | KatolaZ | e.g., the exact numbers |
| 17:25.48 | msiism | them i'd go with ~ |
| 17:26.04 | msiism | KatolaZ: the exact number differ, that's the problem |
| 17:26.11 | KatolaZ | ok, then use ~ |
| 17:26.14 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 17:26.22 | golinux | So ~ should take care of it |
| 17:26.24 | KatolaZ | nobody will complain if it's 1/2 MB more or less |
| 17:26.29 | KatolaZ | ;) |
| 17:26.39 | golinux | Or just a bare number |
| 17:27.10 | KatolaZ | also |
| 17:27.18 | KatolaZ | > 310 MB is incorrect for minimal-iso |
| 17:27.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | for file in `find $files|egrep -v "$ignores"` |
| 17:27.41 | KatolaZ | the i386 version is 299MB |
| 17:27.49 | KatolaZ | the amd64 version is 306MB |
| 17:27.55 | msiism | DocScrutinizer05: ok, let me see if i can fir that all in |
| 17:28.19 | golinux | I have Doc on ignore so didn't see that |
| 17:28.45 | msiism | golinux: it's just hints for the script |
| 17:29.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | but what's wrong with `locale -a` ? |
| 17:29.21 | msiism | DocScrutinizer05: it doesn't show a list of all possibly available locales |
| 17:29.36 | msiism | just those installed |
| 17:30.43 | KatolaZ | DocScrutinizer05: locale -a lists only the available locales compiled on the machine |
| 17:30.46 | KatolaZ | not all of them |
| 17:31.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, isn't "installed"==`find /usr/share/i18n/locales/` ? |
| 17:31.14 | KatolaZ | no DocScrutinizer05 |
| 17:31.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh |
| 17:31.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | k, nm |
| 17:31.31 | KatolaZ | they are trying to list all the *available* locales in Devuan |
| 17:31.36 | msiism | DocScrutinizer05: well, i think there's one porblem with your suggestion on combining the things that have to be excluded in one varibale: exclude4 and exclude2 need to be used with wildcards att the, since they refer to several files. |
| 17:32.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | no problem, egrep knows wildcards |
| 17:32.07 | msiism | ok |
| 17:32.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | just regex, not shell globs |
| 17:32.46 | golinux | needs a break from this folly |
| 17:33.10 | golinux | biab |
| 17:33.19 | Spass | Capricornus, you mean xfce4-weather-plugin? check this thread > https://forum.xfce.org/viewtopic.php?id=11613 |
| 17:33.22 | Spass | "The weather URLs have been deprecated by the weather provider." |
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| 17:33.25 | msiism | DocScrutinizer05: and then i would have to evaluate of `egrep -v "$excludes" ` is true, right? |
| 17:34.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | msiism: nope, egrep -v just filters out the matching strings |
| 17:34.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | from stdout |
| 17:34.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I don't see wildcards in exclude4 and exclude2 either |
| 17:35.17 | tarragon | destroy pettartard's systemdown once and for all!! |
| 17:35.37 | *** join/#devuan negev (~mark@88.97.100.192) |
| 17:35.41 | msiism | DocScrutinizer05: they are being used in the conditional statement of the if structure. |
| 17:35.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes. So where's the problem? |
| 17:36.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | you don't need the "if [ "$locale" != "$exclude1" ] && [[ "$locale" != "$exclude2"* ]] && [ "$locale" != "$exclude3" ] && [[ "$locale" != "${exclude4}"* ]]; then" anymore |
| 17:36.37 | msiism | DocScrutinizer05: i don't really know, since i don't really get it. but that's ok. i'll try to figure it out. |
| 17:37.08 | KatolaZ | msiism: use find |
| 17:37.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
| 17:37.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2017-06-01 Thu 19:27:34] <DocScrutinizer05> for file in `find $files|egrep -v "$ignores"` |
| 17:37.31 | fsmithred | Capricornus, I have backported xfce4-weather-plugin debs here - http://distro.ibiblio.org/refracta/files/extra_packages/ |
| 17:37.38 | msiism | KatolaZ: i always thought, i'd find a way around that... |
| 17:37.43 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 17:37.50 | KatolaZ | find a way around find! |
| 17:37.52 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 17:38.29 | msiism | KatolaZ: really, i've been using locate for the most part, since it's a lot easier to use... |
| 17:38.34 | msiism | DocScrutinizer05: ok, i see |
| 17:39.51 | unixman | In most cases find is available when locate is not. Learning to use find is a good exercise for CLI junkie wannabes. ;) |
| 17:40.40 | negev | is php7 available for devuan? |
| 17:40.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | of course you could do the egrep part in `find ... -a -n -regex "$excludes" ...` , but... I don't want to confuse you |
| 17:41.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | ;-) |
| 17:41.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | oops -a -not |
| 17:42.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | or, POSIX comüpliant: "-a ! -regex ..." |
| 17:44.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | negev: sure, since it's available vor debian |
| 17:45.40 | negev | how would i get it? |
| 17:45.43 | greenjeans | greenjeans@devuan:~$ find beer |
| 17:45.43 | greenjeans | find: `beer': No such file or directory |
| 17:45.51 | greenjeans | doesn't work |
| 17:45.58 | unixman | negev, IIRC ascii has php7. |
| 17:46.01 | fsmithred | greenjeans, you have to import it first |
| 17:46.03 | greenjeans | dangit |
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| 17:47.23 | unixman | negev, yup it does. See this for your php question: http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=devuan |
| 17:48.50 | msiism | DocScrutinizer05: well, what i did now is kind ot the opposite of what need to be done, i guess: for file in `find $files | grep -v "$ignore"` |
| 17:49.10 | msiism | this gets all the things that need to be ignored instead of those that are not to be ignored. |
| 17:49.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | no |
| 17:49.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | grep -v filters *out* all matches and leaves the rest to stdout |
| 17:49.47 | msiism | let me try that again |
| 17:50.01 | msiism | missed the -v |
| 17:50.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | you need egrep or grep -e to have "|" processed without escapes. (without me having checked that) |
| 17:51.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | iirc with plain grep you need "\|" |
| 17:51.06 | *** join/#devuan matlock (~matlock@24.96.131.20) |
| 17:51.27 | msiism | ok |
| 17:52.21 | *** join/#devuan cyteen (~cyteen@cyteen42.plus.com) |
| 17:52.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | jr@saturn:~> find /usr/share/locale/|egrep -v "a|e"|wc -l 0 |
| 17:52.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | jr@saturn:~> find /usr/share/locale/|grep -v "a|e"|wc -l 6392 |
| 17:53.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | ^^^ not devuan |
| 17:56.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | ok, I see a problem: you need find "$files" -maxdepth 1, and "files=/usr/share/i18n/locales/" (without "*" wildcard) |
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| 17:58.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | jr@saturn:~> find /usr/share/locale/ -maxdepth 1 | wc -l |
| 17:58.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | 133 |
| 17:59.20 | msiism | DocScrutinizer05: ok, i just checked "msi@moon:/usr/share/i18n/locales$ find * | egrep -v $ignore" and it works. |
| 17:59.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | see above |
| 17:59.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | find dives into subdirs |
| 18:00.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | IOW it lists *all* files in your dir you scan |
| 18:00.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | and all subdirs |
| 18:00.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | unless -maxdepth 1 |
| 18:01.09 | msiism | ok, well there apparently aren't any sub dirs in the locales folder, so i didn't notice that. |
| 18:01.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-D |
| 18:01.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry I have no devuan system to check the real thing for you |
| 18:02.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | but `find` is one of the greatest tools in UNIX |
| 18:02.47 | msiism | DocScrutinizer05: well, i'll figure it out somehow (i hope) |
| 18:02.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | if not, just ask |
| 18:03.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
| 18:03.02 | msiism | at the moment i'm getting an empty file |
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| 18:03.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | try the commands on cmdline first |
| 18:03.25 | msiism | may i'll just try that line by line in xterm |
| 18:03.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 18:04.54 | *** join/#devuan konsolebox (~konsolebo@112.198.72.35) |
| 18:06.35 | unixman | Just submitted my Devuan review at Distrowatch. I gave it two thumbs up. ;) |
| 18:07.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | files=/usr/share/i18n/locales/; excludes="i18n|iso14651_t1|POSIX|translit_"; ... ; for file in `find "$files" -maxdepth 1 | egrep -v "$excludes"`; do ... ((no more "if [ "$locale" != "$exclude1" ... )) |
| 18:10.01 | msiism | DocScrutinizer05: you could also just use ls in this case. |
| 18:10.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, scripting ls output is strongly deprecated |
| 18:11.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | since (unlike find output) the output of ls is prone to surprise you |
| 18:11.17 | msiism | ok. |
| 18:12.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | generally output of the generic unix cmdline tool isn't defined precisely enough to script it (the original sin in UNIX) |
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| 18:14.23 | detha | or the output of /proc/*, for that matter..... |
| 18:14.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | hehehe |
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| 18:17.27 | msiism | DocScrutinizer05: well, the problem seems to be with the combination of values in the ignore variable |
| 18:18.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | should work with egrep -v "bla|foo|bar" |
| 18:19.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | aka egrep -v "$excludes"; with excludes="i18n|iso14651_t1|POSIX|translit_"; |
| 18:19.24 | msiism | apparently that doesn't work |
| 18:19.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | nice read: http://www.tldp.org/LDP/abs/abs-guide.pdf |
| 18:19.45 | detha | that part should work. pipe just that to a file, and see what's in the file |
| 18:20.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | or pipe it to less ;-) |
| 18:21.07 | KatolaZ | msiism: what are you trying to do exactly, if I can ask? |
| 18:21.24 | detha | less does fancy stuff when it sees non-printable characters |
| 18:21.51 | msiism | KatolaZ: i'm trying to exclude values from the list that is given to the for loop |
| 18:23.32 | KatolaZ | msiism: higher level |
| 18:23.37 | KatolaZ | what do you want to achieve? |
| 18:23.50 | detha | note: the whole for i in $(find ....); do ... done thing doesn't handle spaces in filenames correctly by the way |
| 18:24.27 | detha | find ... -print0 | xargs -0 ...... works better |
| 18:24.35 | cocoadaemon | use find XXX | while read line; do ... done ? |
| 18:24.40 | msiism | KatolaZ: create a table that lists all available locales from /usr/share/i18n(locales and alo prints out their descriptions |
| 18:24.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://paste.ubuntu.com/24739884 |
| 18:25.32 | KatolaZ | msiism: so you need only the "title" field in the corresponding locale file |
| 18:25.33 | KatolaZ | right? |
| 18:26.20 | KatolaZ | or do you want instead Language: + Territory: ? |
| 18:26.30 | msiism | KatolaZ: no, title only |
| 18:26.41 | KatolaZ | ok |
| 18:26.42 | msiism | DocScrutinizer05: i'm trying that again |
| 18:27.41 | Capricornus | Spass, fsmithred, thanks to both for your help, weather forecast plugin updated and running; DIY guide here https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1883#p1883 |
| 18:27.42 | KatolaZ | for i in `find ./`; do grep "^title" $i | sed -r -e 's/title\ +//g' ; done |
| 18:28.18 | KatolaZ | you need to be insside /usr/share/i18n/locales |
| 18:28.33 | KatolaZ | or to change ./ with /usr/share/i18n/locales |
| 18:29.19 | Akuli | i think plain find is same as find . |
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| 18:29.57 | KatolaZ | it is Akuli, but I find it more clear with ./ |
| 18:29.59 | KatolaZ | ;) |
| 18:30.34 | KatolaZ | msiism: ^^^ |
| 18:30.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | find /usr/share/i18n/locales -exec bash -c "grep "^title" {} | sed -r -e 's/title\ +//g'" \; ; ;-) |
| 18:30.43 | KatolaZ | for i in `find ./`; do grep "^title" $i | sed -r -e 's/title\ +//g' ; done |
| 18:31.09 | KatolaZ | DocScrutinizer05: there is no need to exec bash... |
| 18:31.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | you can't pipe in find's exec |
| 18:31.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | can you? |
| 18:33.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | but of course you can pipe find's output to sed ;-) |
| 18:33.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | find /usr/share/i18n/locales -exec grep "^title" {} \; | sed -r -e 's/title\ +//g' |
| 18:34.00 | msiism | DocScrutinizer05: well, i don't know what i'm doing wrong, but the result is empty: http://paste.debian.net/hidden/d67c6c7d/ |
| 18:34.19 | KatolaZ | namely |
| 18:34.39 | KatolaZ | msiism: have you tried the line I pasted above? |
| 18:34.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | missing " |
| 18:35.02 | KatolaZ | or find ./ -exec grep '^title' {} \; | sed -r -e 's/title\ +//g' |
| 18:35.17 | KatolaZ | again from /usr/share/i18n/locales |
| 18:35.20 | KatolaZ | it works |
| 18:35.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | egrep -v $ignore vs (correct) egrep -v "$ignore" |
| 18:35.47 | msiism | same result |
| 18:36.17 | KatolaZ | msiism: are you inside /usr/share/i18n/locales/? |
| 18:36.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | very strange, try using "\|" instead "|" in excludes, and use grep instead egrep |
| 18:36.46 | msiism | KatolaZ: no |
| 18:36.50 | KatolaZ | o_O |
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| 18:37.20 | KatolaZ | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:38.05 | KatolaZ | msiism: ^^^ |
| 18:38.08 | msiism | KatolaZ: ok, "msi@moon:/usr/share/i18n/locales$ find * | egrep -v $ignore" works |
| 18:38.16 | msiism | i don't get it |
| 18:39.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | pastebin please |
| 18:39.32 | msiism | KatolaZ: can you be sure that there is only exactly one beginning with "title" in a locale file? |
| 18:39.44 | msiism | DocScrutinizer05: paste what? |
| 18:39.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | the last few tests you did |
| 18:40.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | I want to learn why stuff fails :-) |
| 18:40.26 | msiism | ok, let me use the escript command and reproduce that |
| 18:40.29 | KatolaZ | msiism: yes |
| 18:40.40 | KatolaZ | find /usr/share/i18n/locales/ -type f -name '*_*' -exec grep '^title' {} \; | sed -r -e 's/title\ +//g;s/title\t+//g' | sort |
| 18:40.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-D |
| 18:41.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | KatolaZ: you love my weird ideas, eh? |
| 18:41.36 | KatolaZ | that one corrects three entries where title is followed by tabs, not spaces |
| 18:41.38 | KatolaZ | but it works |
| 18:41.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:41.52 | KatolaZ | o it doesn't |
| 18:41.55 | KatolaZ | no :) |
| 18:42.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | have a nice time, /me heads out, time for breakfast |
| 18:42.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | o/ |
| 18:43.34 | KatolaZ | msiism: find /usr/share/i18n/locales/ -type f -name '*_*' -exec grep '^title' {} \; | sed -r -e 's/title\ +//g;s/title\t+//g' | sort | uniq |
| 18:43.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | one last hint: sed could replace grep too ;-D |
| 18:43.39 | KatolaZ | this gets unique strings |
| 18:44.20 | msiism | DocScrutinizer05: here's somethign that works: http://paste.debian.net/hidden/eac9fa4f/ |
| 18:44.39 | KatolaZ | msiism: ^^^ |
| 18:44.42 | KatolaZ | that one gets all |
| 18:44.59 | KatolaZ | sorted |
| 18:45.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooooh, files vs dirs |
| 18:45.05 | KatolaZ | and with duplicates removed |
| 18:45.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | my fault |
| 18:45.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry |
| 18:45.52 | msiism | DocScrutinizer05: you were using a different path, right? |
| 18:45.55 | KatolaZ | msiism: you don't need to exclude anything |
| 18:45.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 18:46.00 | KatolaZ | iso* do not have a title... |
| 18:46.22 | msiism | KatolaZ: but i don't want them in the list |
| 18:46.30 | KatolaZ | msiism: they will NOT |
| 18:46.39 | msiism | how is that? |
| 18:46.41 | KatolaZ | have you tried my oneline? |
| 18:46.56 | KatolaZ | because grep only considers the "title" line |
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| 18:47.00 | KatolaZ | and they have none |
| 18:47.02 | KatolaZ | -_- |
| 18:47.09 | msiism | not yet (tryng kind of hard to keep up with whats happening) |
| 18:47.21 | KatolaZ | jyst try it |
| 18:47.25 | KatolaZ | it works :) |
| 18:47.37 | KatolaZ | and does what you need |
| 18:47.39 | msiism | ok, i will when i get back here in a few minutes |
| 18:47.47 | msiism | thanks so far |
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| 18:48.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | for file in `find "$files" -type f | egrep -v "$excludes"`; do ... |
| 18:49.00 | KatolaZ | DocScrutinizer05: don't need to exclude anything |
| 18:49.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | but listen to KatolaZ ;-) |
| 18:49.03 | KatolaZ | -_- |
| 18:49.18 | KatolaZ | the files you want to exclude have no "title" inside |
| 18:49.23 | KatolaZ | so there is no need to exclude them |
| 18:49.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: |
| 18:49.26 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 18:50.37 | KatolaZ | and with a bit of awk you can get also the list in the form |
| 18:50.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | cheers u/ |
| 18:50.44 | brabo | so okay, my lappy is purring with devuan, i see quite some mentions here and there of debian, is it worth reporting these if they are not in the bug system or? |
| 18:50.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | o/ even |
| 18:50.56 | KatolaZ | English (United Kingdom, United States, ..) |
| 18:51.07 | KatolaZ | Spanish (Bolivia, Colombia, ....) |
| 18:51.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | brabo: yes |
| 18:51.31 | *** join/#devuan IoFran (~Thunderbi@189.231.114.120) |
| 18:51.35 | KatolaZ | brabo: what is that exactly? |
| 18:51.52 | brabo | KatolaZ: this for example: |
| 18:51.53 | brabo | brabo@molly:~$ uname -a |
| 18:51.53 | brabo | Linux molly 3.16.0-4-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 3.16.43-2 (2017-04-30) i686 GNU/Linux |
| 18:52.37 | KatolaZ | brabo: that will not be fixed |
| 18:52.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, devuan is a meta-distro on top of debian, there always will be "debian" strings in it |
| 18:52.53 | KatolaZ | there is no need to recompile everything just to remove debian from the name.... |
| 18:53.23 | KatolaZ | unless recompiling is needed for other, more serious reasons |
| 18:53.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | nevertheless we can have all those occurrences listed in bugtracker and tag them as (usually) WONTFIX |
| 18:54.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | so we got them covered |
| 18:54.57 | brabo | if you like, for me it is no problem, i was just under the impression it was a full splitoff and that these instances would be a low priority to replace with devuan ;) |
| 18:55.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | what's urgently needed is a "What Is Devuan (a primer for dummies)" |
| 18:55.45 | brabo | i did not know how far it went ;) |
| 18:55.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | brabo: no offense |
| 18:55.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
| 18:56.12 | brabo | none taken, and as i said, if you think it is useful to report these so they're covered i can do so |
| 18:56.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | nobody is aware of the meta-distro property of Devuan |
| 18:56.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'd consider it useful to have all those debian occasions listed, but it's for sure low priority |
| 18:57.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | if it's actually reasonable to open a tracker ticket for each one, that's another question though |
| 18:58.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | ask the gurus, like KatolaZ |
| 18:58.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
| 18:59.55 | Capricornus | coughs |
| 19:00.14 | *** join/#devuan cocoadaemon_ (~foo@36.161.2.109.rev.sfr.net) |
| 19:00.26 | Capricornus | Devuan's installer dvd's label is Debian 1.0[...] |
| 19:00.29 | Capricornus | coughs |
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| 19:00.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | hehe, that's not a WONTFIX for example |
| 19:01.10 | KatolaZ | msiism: I have also the list in "Language - Territory" if you want |
| 19:01.26 | Capricornus | :) |
| 19:02.15 | brabo | Capricornus: same for netinst cd installer |
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| 19:13.29 | msiism | KatolaZ: tried your script and it works. akthough, i would rather list the local name (file name) and then the description. also the quotes would have to be omitted. could you put that together (i mean as a nice script file)? looking at your script kind of fried my brain. |
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| 19:34.00 | negev | hi, i'm running devuan jessie, can i upgrade to stretch and is it stable enough for general use? |
| 19:39.12 | matlock | you would upgrade to the ascii on devuan |
| 19:39.30 | matlock | and many people are running it just fine, as always YMMV |
| 19:39.54 | matlock | you could also if you wanted utilize backports to bring over updated components that are known stable, like kernel 4.9 |
| 19:40.12 | negev | i'm upgrading to ascii now |
| 19:40.59 | matlock | nice |
| 19:41.07 | negev | seemed to work |
| 19:41.29 | greenjeans | I always wonder why people are so anxious to abandon a known stable system, for one that's more bleeding edge I guess for lack of a better word, it's been my experience that it almost never adds any tangible value to do so |
| 19:42.00 | negev | i prefer newer bugs to older bugs :) |
| 19:42.12 | greenjeans | lol, okay, good response |
| 19:42.15 | golinux | prefers no bugs |
| 19:42.26 | _moep_ | matlock: how is the update policy under ascii? security packages asap in stable? |
| 19:42.29 | greenjeans | I prefer no bugs myself, so I use stable |
| 19:42.41 | negev | there are always bugs, you're just not hitting them |
| 19:42.56 | greenjeans | I tried the 4.9 kernel and ascii in general, did nothing for my system |
| 19:43.28 | greenjeans | no negev, no bugs in my cereal I promise ya ;) |
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| 19:45.12 | matlock | _moep_ I'm not entirely sure now that 1.0 is out and team is now focusing on ascii, I know ascii-security is maintained and active |
| 19:45.23 | Capricornus | ... ..... ........//\Oo/\ < Bugs? Where? |
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| 19:46.01 | greenjeans | buggy ascii, best to move on to Beowulf :) |
| 19:46.03 | matlock | _moep_ if I had to guess it's probably getting Stretch security packages |
| 19:46.21 | matlock | matlock but someone else will need to chime in and confirm |
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| 19:52.07 | matlock | greenjeans I upgraded to 4.9 to get some of the updated features in the kernel but you're right from a user standpoint not much of a difference yet |
| 19:52.14 | negev | what happened to nagios3 in ascii? |
| 19:53.58 | matlock | should be there, can you install other packages? |
| 20:01.24 | negev | nagios3-cgi is there but nagios3 isn't |
| 20:01.35 | negev | also transmission doesn't work anymore :| |
| 20:04.12 | matlock | nagios3 is in the repostiory, devuan repositories are just mirrors of debian repositories with systemd deps removed |
| 20:04.12 | *** join/#devuan Katnija (~KittenGNU@unaffiliated/kittengnu) |
| 20:04.36 | matlock | I am concerned you have an incomplete upgrade |
| 20:06.25 | KatolaZ | negev: it seems like your upgrade took too short |
| 20:06.39 | matlock | negev did you run everything here https://talk.devuan.org/t/upgrading-devuan-jessie-to-ascii/363 |
| 20:06.41 | KatolaZ | have you apt-get update && apt-get upgrade? |
| 20:06.49 | negev | yes i did |
| 20:07.18 | KatolaZ | after you upgraded the souces.list? |
| 20:07.22 | negev | https://pastebin.com/RrMbvrzX |
| 20:07.31 | negev | yes |
| 20:08.34 | matlock | does apt know you are on ascii, what file is that KatolaZ, is it lsb_release that has the installed system listed? |
| 20:09.15 | matlock | what does /etc/devuan_release say |
| 20:09.31 | negev | # cat /etc/devuan_version |
| 20:09.31 | negev | ascii/ceres |
| 20:10.02 | negev | # cat /etc/*rel* |head -n1 |
| 20:10.02 | negev | PRETTY_NAME="Devuan GNU/Linux ascii/ceres" |
| 20:11.11 | matlock | should it say ascii/ceres? I don't know; i thought ceres was next after ascii |
| 20:12.06 | negev | https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=nagios3 i don't see nagios3 for ascii here |
| 20:14.04 | enyc | Hrrm.... Now there is a devuan release, what will be involved in Ascii coming out sooner after debian stretch ??? is there ''ever increasing delta'' to sort out big mess, or will ascii be much easier ??? |
| 20:14.54 | negev | a friend also on ascii doesn't have a nagios3 package either |
| 20:15.11 | matlock | negev well damn, you're right; what about building nagios4 from source? |
| 20:15.37 | *** part/#devuan msiism (~msi@dslb-178-005-113-217.178.005.pools.vodafone-ip.de) |
| 20:16.13 | matlock | negev looks like their was no maintainer and the current debian version of nagios3 had several open bugs and security bugs https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=845765 |
| 20:16.30 | negev | and yet it's in devuan 1.0? :D |
| 20:17.11 | matlock | negev yeah for some reason they haven't pulled it from jessie, weird |
| 20:17.28 | negev | ugh i bet nagios4 is a whole new world of pain and suffering |
| 20:17.53 | negev | oh and its not in ascii, great |
| 20:18.46 | matlock | negev I think nagios went commercial, so it may be in non-free which you don't have enabled |
| 20:19.49 | negev | great big hairy lesbian mammoth bollocks to that |
| 20:20.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | negev: please understand that devuan is a meta-distro overlay pulling most stuff directly from debian repos |
| 20:20.24 | negev | eff it, i don't need nagios, my stuff doesn't break |
| 20:20.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | when you install nagios, you install it from DEBIAN mirrors, not devuan |
| 20:20.39 | negev | ill write serverspec tests and run them once a day, done |
| 20:20.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | !amprolla |
| 20:20.59 | infobot | nextime gave an excellent explanation how amprolla works, at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/2016-05-07/?msg=65646427&page=4, or https://git.devuan.org/devuan-infrastructure/amprolla |
| 20:21.26 | matlock | negev the core part of nagios is still open source but they've got a whole layer of commercial software they want to sell to you now |
| 20:21.39 | negev | good luck to them |
| 20:22.15 | negev | oh this really sucks, now i have even more dependencies on libsystemd0 :| |
| 20:22.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, that's expected outcome to upgrade to a not-released-yet devuan version |
| 20:23.08 | negev | can i safely downgrade? |
| 20:23.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, restore the backup you made before upgrade ;-) |
| 20:24.27 | negev | so apt doesn't support downgrading a system? |
| 20:24.58 | negev | i suppose i could throw up another linode and copy my config over... again |
| 20:25.01 | negev | it's a lot of effort though |
| 20:25.05 | negev | surely someone made apt support this? |
| 20:25.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | since that's not tested, I wouldn't rely on it, even when it might be supported (which it prolly isn't) |
| 20:28.02 | muep | apt can easily support it but since maintainer scripts can run arbitrary code, you can not really be sure if the results will be correct without reviewing those |
| 20:28.27 | negev | meh, ill just live with the libsystemd dependencies then |
| 20:28.36 | negev | may i could write a stub libsystemd0 package that does nothing |
| 20:29.19 | negev | oh i know, every call to a function in libsystemd0 should fire a twitter message from a randomised account at lennart poettering with a randomly selected insult |
| 20:29.22 | negev | yes, that seems fitting |
| 20:30.29 | negev | ascii does seem to be using noticeably less ram with the same services loaded |
| 20:30.41 | greenjeans | lol negev, i like that idea |
| 20:30.54 | negev | i've been thinking of starting the Downvote Lennart project |
| 20:31.04 | negev | a website that makes it really easy to downvote lennart's stupid comments on github issues |
| 20:31.10 | muep | online harassing mob does not sound like a good idea at all to me |
| 20:31.35 | negev | like when he claimed that that rm -rf /.* thing wasn't an issue and didn't understand what it did |
| 20:31.41 | matlock | negev please post to github |
| 20:31.51 | negev | post what to github? |
| 20:32.12 | muep | better just focus on making a good OS |
| 20:32.15 | matlock | negev your systemd->twitter insult function call |
| 20:32.23 | negev | haha |
| 20:32.29 | negev | i have a lot of ideas that never make it into reality |
| 20:32.40 | negev | having a kid kind of makes all your time disappear |
| 20:33.50 | matlock | open a bug report with a feature request, maybe it will inspire a developer one day |
| 20:33.57 | negev | :) |
| 20:34.38 | greenjeans | systemd, the D stands for Dummy-Package |
| 20:34.43 | greenjeans | ha |
| 20:34.51 | greenjeans | I love Devuan |
| 20:36.46 | greenjeans | i got no problem with dummy packages, I rather enjoy watching crap that poopy-heads claim is indispensable, just sit there spinning it's wheels and going nowhere |
| 20:38.00 | negev | i think i'll raise an issue on github complaining that libsystemd0 contains code |
| 20:38.06 | negev | and suggest that it should just contain stub methods |
| 20:38.14 | negev | and perhaps some ascii art of lennart looking sad |
| 20:38.21 | muep | please don't |
| 20:38.39 | negev | you fun spoiler |
| 20:38.50 | greenjeans | i'm gonna re-name or create a new directory, something like "usr/bin/villageidiot/" and put libsystemd0 there and change all the links, lol |
| 20:39.00 | negev | haha |
| 20:40.06 | greenjeans | make the icon for the folder a big pointy dunce cap |
| 20:40.28 | negev | i only run linux on servers so i don't see any icons |
| 20:40.44 | negev | i'm sure libsystemd0 doesn't do much, it's just the principle of it being there that's annoying |
| 20:42.05 | greenjeans | well i'm sure the VUA's know a shit-ton more than me about it, so i'll trust them on this...but I keep finding things that are alleged dependencies when they are in truth not doing anything, and can be removed with a little massaging of some files here and there |
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| 20:43.08 | muep | typically with libsystemd0, removing that dependency will remove some features that the devuan target audience does not care about |
| 20:43.46 | greenjeans | like for instance what I stomped yesterday, samba-libs and libsmbclient, problem was that gvfs-backends was listing libsmbclient for a dependency, so that pulled in several other depends plus the huge samb-libs package |
| 20:44.26 | greenjeans | but in reality, gvfs-backends only needed them to support mounting/viewing Windows shares |
| 20:44.40 | greenjeans | which I don't need |
| 20:44.54 | greenjeans | but I do need gvfs-backends for a lot of other stuff |
| 20:46.17 | greenjeans | so I hacked on var/lib/dpkg/status, removed libsmbclient as a dependency in the gvfs-backend listing and changed the version number to something higher than current (avoids Synaptic error) |
| 20:46.47 | greenjeans | and now they are gone and everything still works perfectly and no Synaptic erros |
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| 20:47.45 | muep | does gvfs-backends actually contain anything or is it just a metapackage? |
| 20:48.02 | muep | gvfs is a bit special in that it is a plugin based system |
| 20:48.08 | greenjeans | no it's a busy lil beaver |
| 20:48.22 | leo__ | Hello : I've made some devuan stickers and 4 tshirts to give for free on my linux users group. is there a problem with that ??? |
| 20:48.24 | greenjeans | it handles mounting of just about everything |
| 20:48.32 | muep | explicitly designed to support adding features without having to recompile the thing |
| 20:49.05 | greenjeans | ^that seems smart muep |
| 20:49.08 | muep | I roughly know what gvfs but was wondering about that package in particular |
| 20:49.51 | muep | it is extra work to write a plugin-extensible thing as opposed to something that you need to recompile to change the set of available functionality |
| 20:52.04 | greenjeans | muep: list of installed files from gvfs-backends: https://paste.debian.net/959163/ |
| 20:52.51 | greenjeans | hope that helps |
| 20:54.45 | greenjeans | I deleted the gvfs-backends files that related to samba too for good measure, but probably didn't have to go that far to do what I wanted, but does help make a smaller iso |
| 20:55.38 | greenjeans | anyhoo....my point being that maybe there's a similar situation with libsystemd0 |
| 20:56.34 | greenjeans | lxappearance lists the lxde icons set as a depend, but you can delete the icon pack itself and lxappearance doesn't stop working |
| 20:56.54 | greenjeans | tons of these little pseudo-depends out there |
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| 20:57.57 | buZz | parazyd: https://twitter.com/MichaelPacholek/status/869802231641632769 |
| 20:58.06 | greenjeans | but then again, i'm just a VUU with an itchy delete-finger |
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| 20:59.41 | Centurion_Dan | o/ |
| 21:00.24 | muep | okay, looks like it indeed has many things in a single package |
| 21:04.04 | matlock | greenjeans like if you delete xfburn it deletes everything else in xfce4-goodies including most xfce4 plugins |
| 21:07.35 | greenjeans | doesn't look like there's too much depending on libsystemd0....gonna try to experiment some tonight |
| 21:08.28 | Centurion_Dan | if anyone runs into an issue with their mouse going to sleep after a few seconds.... laptop-mode is to blame. |
| 21:09.18 | Spass | matlock, yeah that xfce4-goodies package is a pain in the *, same with removing mousepad AFAIR |
| 21:09.26 | greenjeans | looks like in my openbox mini, that only 3 packages are currently listing libsystemd0 as a depend |
| 21:10.53 | greenjeans | rsyslog, sane-utils, and gvfs-daemons |
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| 21:11.38 | Centurion_Dan | greenjeans: I'm working on rsyslog and gvfs-daemons. |
| 21:12.16 | greenjeans | cool, what does rsyslog use it for? |
| 21:12.25 | KatolaZ | greenjeans: guess... |
| 21:12.27 | KatolaZ | ;) |
| 21:12.40 | KatolaZ | bbl |
| 21:12.46 | KatolaZ | g'night |
| 21:12.47 | KatolaZ | o/ |
| 21:12.57 | greenjeans | i dunno, logging my angry tweets and redirecting them to potty-head? |
| 21:13.02 | greenjeans | ;) |
| 21:13.58 | greenjeans | g'night KatolaZ |
| 21:16.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | leo__: no problem, much appreciated |
| 21:17.15 | leo__ | DocScrutinizer05: Thanks |
| 21:17.58 | Centurion_Dan | greenjeans: not quite, it's so rsyslog can be a proper slave to systemd's journald |
| 21:18.26 | Centurion_Dan | greenjeans: btw, is that in jessie or ascii |
| 21:18.33 | greenjeans | jessie |
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| 21:20.43 | greenjeans | so is it rsyslog creating the lib/systemd/ directory in the first place? |
| 21:21.24 | greenjeans | don't see why gvfs-daemons needs it either |
| 21:21.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | greenjeans: rsyslog depends on *systemdown* because of logging is hijacked by that, so rsyslog can't work without it on systems that have it, or somesuch |
| 21:23.29 | Centurion_Dan | Yeah, it's like systemd is a bully trying to cuckold everything in reach... |
| 21:23.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | systemd-journald replaced all ?syslog daemons, so rsyslog has been patched to allow it running on systems with systemd |
| 21:24.16 | muep | AFAIK there are at least two ways to pass syslog messages from journald to rsyslog. journald can pass them into rsyslog as syslog messages (this used to be the only way) or rsyslog can request journald to pass them in some journald-specific way |
| 21:24.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | a nice example of the devastating effects of systemd hostile takeover |
| 21:25.05 | muep | that first way was available even before rsyslog got any journald specific changes. I do not know why they want that other mechanism but maybe it has some advantages |
| 21:26.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | systemd not only replacing (e.g.) rsyslogd but also changing the API/ABI so you can't use rsyslogd anymore to replace systemd-journald |
| 21:28.13 | muep | what api did it change? afaik you still can run an unmodified traditional syslog daemon |
| 21:29.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | Hi Dan btw! :-D |
| 21:30.11 | koollman | to be fair, the dependancy for rsyslog is just because it's packaged that way. rsyslog has many input modules, they are optional, iirc |
| 21:31.23 | greenjeans | koollman: seriously? so can't it just be re-packaged? |
| 21:31.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | quite possible |
| 21:32.14 | muep | my impression is that many of these "remove a libsystemd0 dependency" changes are just packaging changes, as opposed to having to patch upstream source |
| 21:32.18 | koollman | greenjeans: it probably could. doubtful in jessie. that's why devuan exists, though :) |
| 21:32.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | exactly why Devuan exists |
| 21:33.33 | greenjeans | is syslog-ng no longer a viable option? |
| 21:33.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | there are a half a dozen different sysloggers |
| 21:34.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | all are supposed to work, more or less - except that one which is broken by design ;-) |
| 21:35.02 | greenjeans | so is there no real compelling reason to use rsyslog over syslog-ng? |
| 21:35.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | not really |
| 21:35.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | afaik |
| 21:35.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | VUAs may know better |
| 21:35.48 | koollman | I prefer rsyslog. mostly because it has many inputs and outputs, and a decent way to be configured for buffering and as a log relay |
| 21:35.53 | greenjeans | so that seems like a couple of viable solutions at least for that package |
| 21:36.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | rsyslog looks more versatile, yes |
| 21:36.44 | fsmithred | busybox-syslogd is another alternative |
| 21:36.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | WAAAAH! |
| 21:37.00 | greenjeans | I imagine for sysadmins it's heresy, but as an everyday user I turn logging off, I don't need it and it just wastes ram |
| 21:37.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, up to you |
| 21:37.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's still dmesg |
| 21:37.40 | greenjeans | I think most users would if they knew how to do it |
| 21:38.07 | greenjeans | I usually turn off cron too |
| 21:38.10 | greenjeans | atd |
| 21:38.12 | greenjeans | etc |
| 21:38.48 | koollman | greenjeans: heresy! :) |
| 21:38.55 | greenjeans | lol |
| 21:39.13 | greenjeans | hey, busybox-syslogd does look like an option |
| 21:39.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | a PC without cron is like a Saeco espresso machine without mains power in your house |
| 21:40.00 | fsmithred | I don't know anything about it except that I can build ascii with that instead of rsyslog |
| 21:40.20 | greenjeans | it logs everything pretty much the same? |
| 21:40.38 | fsmithred | um, I don't know. I haven't looked at a log yet. |
| 21:40.41 | koollman | default configuration for pretty much any logger in debian is the same, really |
| 21:40.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | prolly, except that it's messybox |
| 21:40.52 | greenjeans | a PC without cron is like being single again without having someone nagging you to do chores |
| 21:40.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | !messybox |
| 21:40.52 | infobot | messy... err busybox is meant for lean scripting. Regarding all the missing options and immanent limitations (see su, passwd, nice, ps, diff as used by mc...) it's not really the interactive shell of choice. A lot of people hate busybox because a lot of system integrators don't understand the difference between busybox and a decent user interactive shell plus unix utils |
| 21:40.58 | koollman | the changes are additionnal features you may or may not want to use |
| 21:41.45 | greenjeans | see, even fsmithred doesn't look at logs |
| 21:41.46 | koollman | DocScrutinizer05: well. it fits the requirements, as a minimal stub to replace a syslog daemon :) |
| 21:41.48 | greenjeans | ;) |
| 21:42.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | up to the sysadmin |
| 21:42.46 | fsmithred | I do 'tail -f /var/log/messages' sometimes - it's a good way to see if the usb stick is losing contact. |
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| 21:44.21 | greenjeans | good gravy, pulseaudio requires the dummy package too? sheesh...this is why i'm moving more towards openbox, mate is slowly breaking my heart |
| 21:44.32 | fsmithred | greenjeans, for the little bit of ram and hard drive they use, logs are well worth the investment when you actually need them. |
| 21:44.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | indeed |
| 21:45.26 | greenjeans | i'm sorry but in 8 years in linux and the 40 prior to that, i've never really needed a log |
| 21:45.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | dmesg -w |
| 21:45.59 | greenjeans | log entries generally only confirm that an error happened, they never explain why |
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| 21:46.21 | greenjeans | always have to figure that out myself anyway |
| 21:47.00 | greenjeans | but anyhoo, Devuan uses them and wants them so i'm down, just throwing ideas out there |
| 21:47.19 | fsmithred | thanks, doc! |
| 21:47.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | yw |
| 21:48.23 | greenjeans | wow yeah, that was a lotta info Doc |
| 21:48.34 | greenjeans | and in color too! |
| 21:48.58 | koollman | greenjeans: I guess one could make a tiny configuration for a "log to /dev/null" option :) |
| 21:49.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | pointless? |
| 21:49.25 | koollman | maybe with a way to switch back to something else when trying to solve a problem |
| 21:49.50 | koollman | DocScrutinizer05: well, if you never read a log ... why have it ? |
| 21:49.52 | greenjeans | easy enough to turn rsyslog on and off, BUM works great |
| 21:50.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | I mean why log to anywhere? |
| 21:50.06 | koollman | although, yeah. |
| 21:50.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | switch OFF logging if you don't want it |
| 21:50.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | logging to /dev/null is absolute cruft |
| 21:51.00 | greenjeans | yep, you can turn rsyslog off with BUM and disable it from starting on boot, that's what I do and offer in my iso's |
| 21:51.31 | koollman | right, right. so, an empty package with 'Provides: linux-kernel-log-daemon, system-log-daemon' ? :) |
| 21:52.06 | koollman | dependancy would be ok, and it's very very efficient :) |
| 21:52.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | kernel logs to /dev/kmsg |
| 21:52.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | for everything else see man 1 logger |
| 21:54.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | and man 3 syslog |
| 21:55.10 | greenjeans | so yahoo/aabaco small businesses tech support's only answer to their shitty broken servers and snail-like FTP speed is that I need to get a Windows computer and use Cyberduck |
| 21:55.33 | greenjeans | so I was told by an otherwise nice man from India |
| 21:55.48 | fsmithred | well, it looks like you won't have to worry about using up hard drive space with busybox-syslogd. There's no syslog, messages or kern.log |
| 21:56.02 | fsmithred | there is dmesg |
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| 21:56.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | dmesg just reads out /dev/kmsg |
| 21:56.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | kernel ring buffer for log is defined on kernel cmdline iirc |
| 21:56.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | size that is |
| 21:57.15 | greenjeans | rsyslog also likes to hang on shutdown if you are missing log files it wants to write to, ask me how I know ;) |
| 21:57.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, unusual |
| 22:02.08 | greenjeans | okay ya'll. i'm out, have fun! @golinux: let me know when website stuff is changed and what I can do to help after that, I can work in html, css, some javascript etc. though again i'm not a ninja there either |
| 22:03.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://elinux.org/Debugging_by_printing#Printk_from_userspace |
| 22:04.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://elinux.org/Debugging_by_printing#Internals_.2F_Changing_the_size_of_the_printk_buffer |
| 22:11.57 | Spass | should I be worried about this message "firmware: failed to load rtl_nic/rtl8168e-3.fw (-2)" when my Wi-Fi works just fine and I don't want to enable "non-free" repos? |
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| 22:15.45 | muep | Spass: my guess would be that you are then just using some older firmware version |
| 22:16.02 | muep | whatever happens to be shipped inside that wifi adapter |
| 22:18.18 | Spass | now when I look at it closely, it may be about my ethernet card, but I didn't check that on my Devuan install yet, I didn't need it |
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| 22:19.45 | Spass | strange, I thought that only some wireless cards cause troubles, not eth |
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| 22:30.17 | muep | almost all ethernet cards use firmware, too |
| 22:30.44 | muep | and in many cases, they require the OS driver to upload it instead of shipping their own copy onboard |
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| 22:58.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/debian-26/firmware-failed-to-load-rtl_nic-rtl8168g-2-fw-2-a-4175555113/ |
| 23:01.40 | Spass | yep, I know about that package, but "non-free" is not an option for me now |
| 23:02.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, your NIC obviously needs a non-free firmware blob |
| 23:02.49 | Spass | so, only intel gigabit ethernet cards has free firmware? or not even them? |
| 23:03.00 | *** join/#devuan matlock (~matlock@24.96.131.20) |
| 23:03.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think many NICs have firmware in a flash storage |
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| 23:03.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | so they don't need a firmware blob loaded by system on boot |
| 23:04.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | a few need firmware upload though, and possibly some of those few even have FOSS firmware |
| 23:05.26 | Spass | next time I must take that under consideration when buying new mobo |
| 23:07.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | puts "NIC" on that long list of subsystems that have firmware and are known to allow firmware update, though they don't have FOSS firmware. So all those devices on that list don't qualify for Stallman's RYF cert |
| 23:08.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | the requirement to not allow firmware updates is ridiculous even for RYF |
| 23:09.21 | koollman | DocScrutinizer05: hmm ... that's not the requirement, iirc |
| 23:09.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | it is |
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| 23:10.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | RMS himself asked me if we could add a write-protect to the firmware of Neo900 modem |
| 23:11.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | obviously you can't, for *any* subsystem that has firmware in flash. You never can prove there's *no* way to bypass the write protection |
| 23:12.20 | koollman | this seems strange. I would guess the requirement would be more like 'provide free/opensource firmware, and a way to control them' |
| 23:12.38 | koollman | or is it in the 'no backdoor' policy ? |
| 23:13.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | you always may assume the chip/module makers have a way to update their firmware - no matter if they disclose the means to update it or not |
| 23:14.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | it is the "as long as it has no (documented) firmware related functions in the interface, we consider it being a blackbox without any relevant software inside". That's basically self-deception |
| 23:15.46 | koollman | that reminds me I have to check how network hardware has evolved for sdn stuff |
| 23:15.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | RYF fails on defining sustainable system borders |
| 23:16.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'd recommend the FSF rather resorts to a von-Neuman model of a system |
| 23:17.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | and uses that to define the system borders |
| 23:18.28 | comradekingu | what is strange about that? |
| 23:18.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | that would also mean that you don't bother about *data* and only put your requirements to program text that gets executed on the von Neuman system's controller aka CPU |
| 23:19.19 | *** part/#devuan Signotheque (sid189598@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vdrcwigyfbjgrfpg) |
| 23:20.04 | comradekingu | if you dont have requirements for fw, you have lost already |
| 23:20.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | even with nowadays systems' architecture not exactly being von Neuman anymore but rather Harvard, you still can do this |
| 23:20.35 | koollman | DocScrutinizer05: the 'exception for secondary embedded processors' is hard to read for me. but isn't it basically "we only care about software running on the main cpu, not the rest" ? |
| 23:20.43 | koollman | (on https://www.fsf.org/resources/hw/endorsement/criteria) |
| 23:21.42 | comradekingu | things that only do one non-harmful thing, in a way where you would assume ill-intention and it still wouldnt matter |
| 23:22.39 | comradekingu | like the nub fw on the openpandora |
| 23:22.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | hidden in >>...within which software installation is not intended after the user obtains the product.<< |
| 23:23.25 | comradekingu | yes, like eeprom-flash type stuff |
| 23:23.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | this translates to "must not have a way to install firmware updates from linux system" |
| 23:24.01 | koollman | DocScrutinizer05: oh. so, rom is ok, eeprom is not ? |
| 23:24.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, basically |
| 23:24.24 | djph | eh wot? |
| 23:24.50 | djph | ... oh ... |
| 23:24.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry this is off topic in here |
| 23:25.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | I apologize |
| 23:25.46 | djph | DocScrutinizer05: nah, I just missed some key points in the scrollback |
| 23:28.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | basically every I2C chip must be considered as a subsystem with embedded (and possibly, even likely) update-able firmware |
| 23:29.01 | *** join/#devuan Vall (~Vall@2602:ffda:ccc:1::d2fe:5848) |
| 23:29.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | just for most of those chips the update procedure is not disclosed |
| 23:29.50 | koollman | DocScrutinizer05: I would rather have a certificate of 'every chip is documented correctly and you can write your own code for it', really :) |
| 23:30.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | exactly |
| 23:31.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | the interface needs documentation of all aspects relevant for operating the chip, and it needs evaluation making sure the chip can't inject code for the linux CPU into the system via that interface |
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| 23:33.15 | koollman | (like ... amt. or most bmc systems) |
| 23:34.26 | koollman | on the plus side, I did find documentation to write some software for supermicro bmc, once it was broken. there even was an linux packager somewhere :) |
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| 23:44.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually the interface must not have any means to access data on the system by its own (without linux CPU supporting it), neither write nor read. You can't make sure data going *through* the subsystem isn't getting accessed/altered by it, see NIC for example |
| 23:45.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway bottom line: in my book firmware is *data* and FSF has no business with that stuff |
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