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| 00:30.26 | *** topic/#devuan is Recent (2017-05-5): Jessie 1.0.0 RC2 | https://devuan.org/ discussion channel (logged at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan - with useful 'search') | Please take off-topic conversation to #debianfork | /msg chanserv info #devuan | !listkeys #devuan <foo> | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ |
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| 02:51.45 | chocolate | Hi all, I have a scenario that i would like some feedback on. Am a relative linux newbie but have managed to install devuan on my macbook. I currently, I have no non-free firmware installed, but have devuan working with a screen resolution that I cannot change (it is bearable but not ideal). My comp has 2 graphics cards, and currently i think it is using the dedicated card. Great but I only get about 3 hrs battery. If I install |
| 02:52.01 | chocolate | lets try again.. |
| 02:52.20 | chocolate | I have a scenario that i would like some feedback on. |
| 02:52.33 | chocolate | Am a relative linux newbie but have managed to install devuan on my macbook. I currently, I have no non-free firmware installed, but have devuan working with a screen resolution that I cannot change (it is bearable but not ideal). My comp has 2 graphics cards, and currently i think it is using the dedicated card. Great but I only get about 3 hrs battery. |
| 02:52.56 | chocolate | If I install the nonfree-firmware then i am able to see both graphics cards when I do lspci. I am also able to use vgaswitcheroo to power off the dedicated card and switch to the integrated card. |
| 02:53.09 | chocolate | I want to -be able to boot into devuan using integrated (intel) card only (increase battery life). -be able to make my screen resolution a bit bigger -be able to suspend and resume my comp |
| 02:53.26 | chocolate | It seems that the only way I can get my comp to do the above is if I install the nonfree-firmware package. Is it worth it? What are the disadvantages of installing it? |
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| 03:02.08 | gnarface | the primary disadvantage is ethical, if you trust the company/people who created the firmware. the problem is they'll all work for the company who made the hardware, so by definition, that firmware is made from code that hasn't ever been audited by someone without an inherent conflict of interest |
| 03:02.53 | gnarface | so you have no idea if industry best-practices were actually applied with regards to security, let alone whether or not there are any "backdoors" |
| 03:03.55 | gnarface | and of course in theory at least there is the possibility of them purposefully sandbagging performance for whatever nefarious reasons (or just through the type of basic incompetence that an open-source crowd can usually improve upon) |
| 03:04.55 | Xenguy | chocolate: You just make a personal choice: free or non-free |
| 03:04.58 | Xenguy | That's it |
| 03:05.05 | gnarface | the video resolution issue is probably fixable with a custom modeline in xorg.conf though |
| 03:05.08 | chocolate | awesome |
| 03:05.22 | chocolate | thanks for the reply gnarface and xenguy |
| 03:05.33 | gnarface | maybe even just specifying proper refresh rates |
| 03:05.40 | Xenguy | You're delicious chocolate |
| 03:05.43 | Xenguy | :) |
| 03:05.46 | gnarface | hell, it might be loading the wrong driver |
| 03:05.48 | chocolate | hahaha np |
| 03:06.29 | gnarface | basically, some hardware just requires non-free because the companies that made it are *that* mean. |
| 03:06.38 | Xenguy | ^^ |
| 03:06.39 | gnarface | you can get partial functionality without the non-free firmware though |
| 03:06.44 | gnarface | in many cases at least |
| 03:06.49 | chocolate | yes, that's what im finding |
| 03:07.11 | chocolate | Im very happy that I could install devuan and get it working *without and non-free firmware* |
| 03:07.14 | gnarface | the optimal solution of course is just be more careful who you buy hardware from |
| 03:07.25 | chocolate | yes - don't create a problem in the first place |
| 03:08.09 | Xenguy | I saw this site pure something, that promotes linux and free hardware |
| 03:08.17 | Xenguy | purio ? |
| 03:08.22 | Xenguy | damn |
| 03:08.26 | chocolate | do you know how I can tell if i am using my discrete or integrated card? |
| 03:08.43 | gnarface | look in /var/log/Xorg.0.log |
| 03:09.00 | gnarface | the whole grisly story about the graphical environment initialization is in that file |
| 03:09.19 | chocolate | lspci gives 01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Venus XT [Radeon HD 8870M / R9 M270X/M370X] (rev 83) |
| 03:09.27 | Xenguy | We now present: the gory details :) |
| 03:09.35 | gnarface | presumably they both show up though, no? |
| 03:09.44 | chocolate | no, only that one |
| 03:09.56 | chocolate | i will check in the /vsr/log now |
| 03:10.00 | gnarface | the integrated one probably shows up as something like "intel integrated device 5742" |
| 03:13.06 | chocolate | i know it did show the intel integrated device when the firmware was installed previously |
| 03:13.13 | chocolate | but now it only shows radeon |
| 03:14.17 | chocolate | do you know how I would specify the resolution i want it to use? |
| 03:20.27 | gnarface | uh, not specifically, but i'm sure someone has put that information online for that model of moac |
| 03:20.29 | gnarface | *of mac |
| 03:20.40 | gnarface | just search for modelines and xorg.conf stuff |
| 03:21.17 | chocolate | ok great. |
| 03:21.41 | gnarface | i'd help search but i'm uh, ... in the middle of a game sorry |
| 03:22.07 | chocolate | appreciate you help :-) |
| 03:22.10 | chocolate | your |
| 03:23.09 | gnarface | i don't know if that card is new enough to need amdgpu stuff |
| 03:23.54 | gnarface | i assume you installed devuan jessie, but you may benefit from the backported kernel&mesa versions |
| 03:24.16 | chocolate | out of curiosity, when my system boots up, it says: waiting for /dev to be fully populated... 3.915332 intel_pch_thermal 0000:00:1f.6: sensor can't be enabled..... intel_pch_thermal pci device failed to probe |
| 03:24.30 | chocolate | I am using backports |
| 03:24.35 | chocolate | not sure if i am using mesa |
| 03:24.37 | chocolate | will check now |
| 03:24.46 | chocolate | Phantom098 |
| 03:24.50 | chocolate | oops |
| 03:27.57 | chocolate | ok, so i am using mesa - all good |
| 03:29.57 | gnarface | "apt-get update && apt-get install lm-sensors" (as root) then run sensors-detect (also as root) answer yes to everything |
| 03:30.11 | gnarface | there is some chance that might give you sensors |
| 03:30.29 | gnarface | it might also require additional configuration beyond that though |
| 03:30.48 | gnarface | it also may just not work at all if it's too new of a mac |
| 03:30.53 | gnarface | (or too old) |
| 03:33.09 | gnarface | would very likely require the non-free firmware to work, too |
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| 03:35.08 | gnarface | that error might just be related to the delay for /dev to be populated too though, for all i know |
| 03:35.16 | chocolate | great |
| 03:35.22 | chocolate | just installed the lm-sensors |
| 03:35.43 | gnarface | well since it's a laptop, you almost certainly want sensors either way |
| 03:36.06 | gnarface | all i'm saying is that i don't know for certain it'll fix that error |
| 03:36.12 | chocolate | thats cool |
| 03:36.16 | chocolate | thank you anyway |
| 03:37.35 | chocolate | i guess im still trying to work out whether the performance increase (in battery life) is worth the trade off for using the non-free files is worth it |
| 03:38.06 | chocolate | philosophically, I dont like that the files are 'closed' |
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| 03:38.35 | chocolate | when I could run a purely open system (in the walled garden anyway) lol |
| 03:39.43 | chocolate | im going to reboot and see if the sensors-lm made a difference |
| 03:39.47 | chocolate | thanks for your help |
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| 05:47.15 | _william_ | parazyd: i'm stuck at mounting the rootfs. With the same image, and different defconfig ile i can boot orange pi zero without problem (not fully tested, but it boots). I tried to boot a usb device, it does not work either, even if the uboot can read the file systems, (both usb and mmc). Once the kernel is booting, there is no more storage devices seens from the kernel |
| 05:56.44 | jaromil | _william_: hang on, due to timezone I guess you'll get some feedback later on today. also note there is #devuan-arm |
| 05:57.11 | jaromil | a dedicated channel for ARM support for Devuan |
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| 06:03.11 | _william_ | thanks jaromil 'ill try sometime today. Which TZ are you in guys ? |
| 06:03.16 | jaromil | CEST |
| 06:03.43 | _william_ | same here, PAris area |
| 06:06.00 | jaromil | then the only issue is that some hackers working with us are not exactly "morning people" :^) our last dev meeting yesterday finished at midnight... |
| 06:06.38 | jaromil | i think we should have a pi zero with us, should place an order |
| 06:08.24 | _william_ | noproblem :) here it is office time, hacking time starts at 8PM :P |
| 06:08.34 | _william_ | thanks and c u later |
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| 06:48.32 | AntoFox | o/ |
| 06:48.40 | KatolaZ | AntoFox: o/ |
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| 09:50.17 | parazyd | _william_: as mentioned, the image worked on my lime2 |
| 09:51.23 | parazyd | _william_: what defconfig did you use? i use a modified sunxi_defconfig: https://github.com/dyne/arm-sdk/blob/next/boards/kernel-configs/sunxi.config |
| 09:53.10 | djph | Well, after a few false starts (mostly because I apparently don't know how to use a ncurses-based installer anymore), got some new RC2 boxen spun up |
| 09:53.54 | djph | did notice that the installer is leaving 'cdrom' as an apt-source after install though |
| 09:56.07 | jaromil | yes is up to the user to change the sources |
| 09:57.25 | djph | well, in that case, it's behaving as designed -- though it does create a commented 'cdrom' entry at line 1 |
| 09:58.43 | jaromil | the rationale is that for an off-line installation it may be desired to keep it all offline |
| 09:59.06 | jaromil | but we haven't debated that a lot and it may be handy to leave the repos at least commented |
| 09:59.50 | djph | not arguing either way, just a thing I noticed ... though I was telling it to connect to us.mirror during the install, which is what threw me off |
| 10:00.44 | djph | also, apparently I have to hand in my VUA card, since I made some pretty stupid mistakes getting everything running |
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| 10:54.42 | Helle | anyone working on the installer ? because I have some EFI related issues to discuss :) |
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| 11:32.22 | fsmithred | hi helle. Which installer? regular or in the live isos? |
| 11:34.49 | fsmithred | Helle, ^^^ |
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| 11:34.54 | aitor | hi all |
| 11:35.11 | fsmithred | hi |
| 11:35.14 | Centurion_Dan | Helle: what's the issue |
| 11:35.21 | Centurion_Dan | hi aitor! |
| 11:35.49 | aitor | the dynamic and multilingual menu for openbox is coming soon |
| 11:35.56 | aitor | look at this video: |
| 11:36.21 | aitor | http://gnuinos.org/openbox-menu.mpg |
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| 11:37.49 | aitor | need to go, time to eat here :) |
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| 11:41.33 | fsmithred | aitor, I think that was the wrong video |
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| 11:43.06 | aitor | why? |
| 11:44.01 | fsmithred | it was all in English |
| 11:44.14 | fsmithred | simple-netaid vid. |
| 11:44.30 | aitor | the code is inside a folder named SIMPLE-NETAID-GTK |
| 11:44.51 | aitor | it's in english because my system is in english |
| 11:45.20 | fsmithred | so that video was to show the menu that comes up at the end? |
| 11:45.45 | aitor | yes |
| 11:46.02 | fsmithred | what menu is it? |
| 11:46.13 | fsmithred | I know it's not the default openbox menu |
| 11:46.50 | aitor | you can replace the original right click popmenu of openbox by another application, for example, gmrun if you want |
| 11:47.17 | aitor | so, you can replace it by this other one |
| 11:47.23 | fsmithred | yeah, lxpanel will replace it, too (I think) |
| 11:47.31 | fsmithred | yours? |
| 11:48.24 | aitor | lxpanel has its own launcher as an applet, but it doesn't replace the menu of openbox |
| 11:49.04 | aitor | i'll add more submenus to the dynamic part of the menu |
| 11:49.43 | aitor | like Execute, PCManFM (as root), Exit, etc |
| 11:49.46 | fsmithred | ok, something replaces it here. And I can choose to use the openbox menu in spacefm settings |
| 11:49.59 | aitor | the same option that you can find in gnuinos |
| 11:50.18 | aitor | but they will be multilingual in this case |
| 11:50.51 | aitor | the gtk theme will change automatically, adapting to the current gtk theme |
| 11:51.01 | aitor | i'll also add the icons to the menu |
| 11:51.09 | fsmithred | sounds good |
| 11:52.45 | aitor | need to go, otherwise i'll die of hunger |
| 11:52.54 | aitor | bye :) |
| 12:03.14 | Helle | fsmithred: regular |
| 12:03.23 | fsmithred | what's up? |
| 12:03.33 | fsmithred | what problem are you having? |
| 12:03.57 | fsmithred | and who made your computer? (HP or not HP?) |
| 12:04.53 | Helle | fsmithred: the issue is with grub being unable to install on a fresh nvme drive seemingly in the installer and is unable to deal with the situation in which the BIOS can only boot from the EFI boot partition from the loader in EFI/boot/bootx64.efi |
| 12:05.01 | Helle | MSI motherboard |
| 12:05.49 | fsmithred | yeah, now I remember. Partitioner sees nvme but grub does not. |
| 12:05.57 | Helle | exactly |
| 12:06.17 | fsmithred | I don't know the fix for that, but I do know that the live installer supports nvme disks. |
| 12:06.34 | fsmithred | and it's been tested once. |
| 12:06.45 | fsmithred | just so you know... |
| 12:06.50 | Helle | and then even if it does install, it installs with the presumption that a EFI is well behaved, which isn't always the case, in my case, it always throws out the bootloader selection in the EFI and only boots EFI/boot/bootx64.efi |
| 12:07.15 | fsmithred | you get a bootloader named devuan? |
| 12:07.38 | Helle | fsmithred: no, it just doesn't see any bootloader as it only looks for one in EFI/boot/bootx64.efi |
| 12:08.06 | fsmithred | that sounds as bad as HP, which only looks in EFI/Microsoft, or something like that. |
| 12:08.12 | Helle | so on an empty boot partition it might be worth either copying grub there aswell, or copying an additional preloader that adds sensible behaviour to bad EFI (there iirc is a FOSS project out there) |
| 12:08.24 | Helle | fsmithred: well, the diff is EFI/boot/bootx64.efi is atleast to spec |
| 12:08.37 | fsmithred | lol, true |
| 12:08.58 | fsmithred | don't know if it would work to re-name your bootloader to match that. |
| 12:09.03 | Helle | yes, it works |
| 12:09.09 | Helle | that is how I am using the system now |
| 12:09.12 | fsmithred | other project is refind |
| 12:09.33 | Helle | But I am wondering how this should be in the installer, because damned, it was rather tricky to find the info on this |
| 12:09.47 | fsmithred | http://www.rodsbooks.com/refind/ |
| 12:10.12 | Helle | I've seen a more basic one |
| 12:10.25 | fsmithred | I don't know the internals of debian-installer, and actually, it sounds like the problem is with grub |
| 12:11.06 | fsmithred | there's a kernel-boot for uefi, too. |
| 12:11.12 | Helle | fsmithred: well, it is also an issue with initialising an empty GPT boot partition |
| 12:11.51 | fsmithred | what do you mean? |
| 12:12.22 | fsmithred | installer doesn't like it if you have a separate /boot partition? |
| 12:13.16 | Helle | fsmithred: GPT boot partition is seperate |
| 12:13.26 | Helle | it's where EFI looks on for the actual bootloader |
| 12:13.36 | fsmithred | ok |
| 12:13.55 | fsmithred | I've done a couple of installs with separate boot partition, but that was with the live installer. |
| 12:15.36 | fsmithred | is it not finding /boot because it's confused by nvme? |
| 12:15.59 | Helle | fsmithred: I have a seperate /boot (ext4) with kernels and the real GRUB stuff and a /boot/efi which is FAT, and is where the EFI/boot/bootx64.efi or the like is on |
| 12:16.07 | Helle | that is what grub is doing yeah |
| 12:16.30 | Helle | but then even once it does install, it still only handles well behaved EFI implementations that show a selection of bootloaders |
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| 12:17.08 | djph | couldn't make EFI work on a new (bare metal) box ... BIOS / MBR + LVM worked though ... so, meh |
| 12:17.09 | fsmithred | what else do you want it to do? |
| 12:18.09 | fsmithred | Helle, the is an internal drive or external drive? |
| 12:18.12 | Helle | internal |
| 12:18.15 | fsmithred | ok |
| 12:19.25 | Helle | fsmithred: well, it either needs to also drop grub in EFI/boot/bootx64.efi (unless that already exists, in which case it either shouldn't touch it or it should provide a way to chainload the original) or it should drop a seperate chainloader in that place, that is able to handle alternate bootloaders if the actual EFI implementation doesn't do that (mine just forgets that you set the option to use an alterna |
| 12:19.31 | Helle | tive one even with efibootmgr) |
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| 12:20.33 | fsmithred | oh, mine won't let me change the boot order. Well, it pretends to let me, but it reverts to the previous order on reboot. |
| 12:20.51 | fsmithred | always the last install is first in the boot order. |
| 12:21.18 | fsmithred | to change order, I have to delete a bootloader. |
| 12:21.42 | Helle | exactly, it's variously buggy, but on an empty EFI boot partition, having GRUB drop itself in the default location should be fine, instead of dropping itself in a nonstandard one and hoping the firmware is written sensibly |
| 12:22.23 | fsmithred | maybe. or else manufacturers could follow standards, but maybe that's asking too much. |
| 12:22.40 | Helle | in the other case, it could drop itself there, with the original bootloader in that location being moved and being availible as a chainload option inside grub |
| 12:23.01 | Helle | (because grub chainloading into the Windows UEFI bootmgr works and I think the same is true for the Apple one) |
| 12:23.11 | Helle | it may need to be optional to do that though |
| 12:23.26 | fsmithred | I haven't tried chainloading efi bootloader. |
| 12:23.56 | fsmithred | but I can get to a uefi screen that lists all the bootloaders and choose one |
| 12:24.35 | Helle | yeah, I can't get that on mine |
| 12:25.10 | fsmithred | I can't remember how I get there. Maybe ESC. |
| 12:26.03 | fsmithred | the live installer gives you the option of installing the bootloader in a chroot window, and you can give it any name you want, but I don't know if that would help you. |
| 12:26.24 | fsmithred | also lets you edit the grub boot menu, so you could add an entry for chainloading, I guess. |
| 12:26.45 | Helle | well, I mean I have managed to make it work |
| 12:26.58 | Helle | but I am trying to make sure other people who have less of a clue about EFI can also have this work |
| 12:27.04 | fsmithred | how do you chainload to an efi bootloader? |
| 12:27.23 | fsmithred | and I'm keen on this because I wrote the uefi live installer. |
| 12:28.22 | fsmithred | and I don't consider it finished yet. |
| 12:29.27 | Helle | fsmithred: grub's chainloader command is EFI aware |
| 12:29.34 | fsmithred | so I need to do an install with d-i and make separate /boot partition |
| 12:29.37 | fsmithred | oh |
| 12:29.58 | Helle | fsmithred: no, you just need a seperate GPT partition |
| 12:30.07 | Helle | I have a seperate /boot as my / is on lvm |
| 12:30.15 | Helle | but there is no need for /boot itself |
| 12:30.19 | Helle | just /boot/efi |
| 12:30.31 | fsmithred | yeah, ok |
| 12:30.58 | fsmithred | so you just point it to the installed system as you normally would. |
| 12:31.00 | Helle | you need to use chainloader for dualbooting Windows 10 as ntldr (bootmgr on the Windows C: drive) is no more |
| 12:31.11 | fsmithred | similar to booting from grub command line |
| 12:31.38 | Helle | yeah, except you point it at the installed system's bootloader, not the actual system |
| 12:31.54 | fsmithred | huh? |
| 12:32.00 | fsmithred | the bootloader on the efi partition? |
| 12:32.07 | Helle | yep |
| 12:32.22 | fsmithred | what's the syntax for that? |
| 12:32.31 | fsmithred | set root=what? |
| 12:33.49 | Helle | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:34.03 | fsmithred | which partition is that? |
| 12:34.21 | Helle | the GPT EFI Boot partition |
| 12:34.45 | fsmithred | so how does it know which bootloader to load if there's more than one on efi partition? |
| 12:35.26 | Helle | you use chainloader ($root)/path/to/file.efi |
| 12:35.48 | Helle | wonder if that search can be UUID agnostic |
| 12:35.59 | Helle | I mean there are certain guaranteed properties of that partition |
| 12:36.17 | fsmithred | hang on, and I'll tell you. I'm on grub command line now |
| 12:36.27 | Helle | ie, the label |
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| 12:38.23 | fsmithred | it's not working for me |
| 12:38.23 | Helle | hrm, nope, no fixed label, just boot flag and should be the first partition |
| 12:38.36 | Helle | fsmithred: yes, because you need the UUID for your specific bootdrive |
| 12:38.39 | fsmithred | I keep getting 'invalid file name' even when using tab-completion |
| 12:38.39 | Helle | err boot partition |
| 12:39.04 | fsmithred | I used set root=(hd0,gpt1) |
| 12:39.13 | Helle | got modules part_gpt, search_fs_uuid and chain loaded ? |
| 12:39.22 | Helle | well, not the second necessarily in your case |
| 12:39.32 | fsmithred | not sure |
| 12:39.52 | Helle | insmod them then |
| 12:40.32 | fsmithred | chain should be in there already, but yeah, I'll do that |
| 12:43.41 | Helle | ah, looks like efilinux might be able to take the role of EFI/boot/bootx64.efi and then chainload any other bootloader (gummiboot can do similar things, but is now for some bizarre reason, part of systemd, so not touching that) |
| 12:44.23 | Helle | I'll run some tests with efilinux once my machine is in a state I can reboot it a few times for testing |
| 12:44.42 | fsmithred | I was missing the pares around $root |
| 12:44.48 | fsmithred | now it gives me: |
| 12:45.11 | Helle | (note, efilinux can load kernels, that is just not a reason to use it, the fact it cleanly chainloads is) |
| 12:45.21 | fsmithred | file path: /ACPI/... |
| 12:45.36 | fsmithred | and then grub prompt again |
| 12:46.02 | Helle | fsmithred: hmmmm, interesting, I'll test that aswell, I tested that briefly, but that was a totally different setup |
| 12:46.50 | fsmithred | you have more than one linux installed, or you need this to boot windows? |
| 12:48.08 | Helle | I used this in a test to boot Windows |
| 12:48.12 | Helle | I don't need that part myself |
| 12:48.30 | Helle | but that was in a BIOS that also was able to just boot multiple EFI loaders |
| 12:48.33 | fsmithred | ok. I have no windows to test here |
| 12:48.41 | fsmithred | like it should |
| 12:48.43 | Helle | but I wanted to chainload it from Grub to see if that worked |
| 12:48.59 | Helle | fsmithred: yeah, "should" *grmbl BIOS vendors* |
| 12:49.03 | Helle | even EFI they messed up |
| 12:49.31 | fsmithred | and that's the reason my uefi installer will likely be labeled experimental for eternity. |
| 12:50.33 | Helle | fsmithred: well, if efilinux or gummiboot can be made to work, we can always provide such a menu |
| 12:50.47 | Helle | I need to see which one makes more sense |
| 12:51.08 | Helle | gummiboot is sadly as said been absorbed by systemd for no good reason (why the hell is a bootloader part of the systemd project ?) |
| 12:52.55 | fsmithred | why should they leave any parts out? |
| 12:53.40 | fsmithred | they can do everything better than everyone else, therefore they should. (In their minds, I believe) |
| 12:53.41 | zdzichu | bootloader seem like a quite important part of operating system, which warrants including in operating system building blocks project |
| 12:53.50 | Helle | zdzichu: except it isn't |
| 12:53.53 | meowschwitz | systemd isn't complete until it's fucking your daughters |
| 12:54.02 | fsmithred | lol |
| 12:54.04 | Helle | even Microsoft's loaders are indepdendently developed from the kernels and rest of the OS |
| 12:55.08 | Helle | (friend of mine used to work for them, probably still does actually working on those) |
| 12:55.10 | fsmithred | yeah, it takes more than a handful of people to maintain everything |
| 12:56.03 | fsmithred | seems to me there's a way to use the windows bootloader to boot linux (or to add the linux bootloader into the efi list) |
| 12:56.19 | fsmithred | bcgedit or something like that? |
| 12:56.36 | Helle | yep, that is the other approach |
| 12:56.50 | Helle | no, the Windows EFI loader can itself chainload other EFI loaders |
| 12:56.51 | fsmithred | is that the right spelling? |
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| 12:57.07 | Helle | so it's not booting Linux, unless you use a kernel with EFI stub |
| 12:57.34 | fsmithred | yeah, ok. I just meant the efi bootloader |
| 12:57.44 | fsmithred | the one that grub creates |
| 12:58.17 | Helle | yep, but throwing a pre-loader like efilinux or the like in the "default" location to deal with silly EFI implementations seems to be the way to go |
| 12:58.27 | Helle | I might test it and write some logic for installing those |
| 12:58.32 | fsmithred | ok |
| 12:58.46 | fsmithred | I considered adding something like that to the live installer |
| 12:58.52 | fsmithred | but never did anything about it |
| 12:59.21 | zdzichu | Helle: what isn't? |
| 12:59.24 | fsmithred | I think I might have put a line in the instructions with something like "have a usb with refind on it just in case" |
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| 13:00.26 | Helle | fsmithred: refind is "too complex" |
| 13:00.53 | Helle | zdzichu: rewind, context of that ? |
| 13:00.56 | fsmithred | you use what? |
| 13:01.31 | fsmithred | efilinux |
| 13:01.53 | Helle | efilinux is what I am going to test, well, once I can either reboot my own machine or get a reasonable qemu efi setup working |
| 13:02.04 | Helle | efilinux is not linux specific |
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| 13:02.23 | Helle | if it isn't sufficient/handy, I might see if I can rescue gummiboot from the clutches of the systemd project |
| 13:02.48 | fsmithred | sourceforge page for efilinux says it was orphaned in 2014 |
| 13:03.03 | Helle | fsmithred: yeah, that is why I am a little worried |
| 13:03.12 | fsmithred | ever tried the efi boot in syslinux? |
| 13:03.26 | Helle | fsmithred: works fine, but syslinux can't autodetect things easily |
| 13:03.35 | fsmithred | I have yet to experiment with that |
| 13:03.36 | fsmithred | oh |
| 13:03.46 | Helle | it's always been my gripe about syslinux |
| 13:03.53 | Helle | it's a very static configuration |
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| 13:04.51 | fsmithred | never tried this, but it may be possible to chainload to grub from syslinux/extlinux |
| 13:05.10 | Helle | yes, you can |
| 13:05.15 | fsmithred | um, actually I may have done it |
| 13:05.15 | Helle | it's just not the way to go in this case |
| 13:06.07 | Helle | the preloader just needs to detect all bootloaders installed by going through the boot partition and some EFI variables and then either depending on key presses, present a menu, load a specific one, or autoload a default |
| 13:06.26 | Helle | and then it can just load into grub, which can boot a kernel with all fancy buisness like commandlines |
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| 13:09.31 | fsmithred | ah, found how I get to the bootloader list - F12 to get a list of boot devices, choose the hard drive, and it shows me a list of efi bootloaders |
| 13:09.52 | Lydia_K | o/ |
| 13:10.01 | yuki_is_bored | hi |
| 13:10.03 | fsmithred | hi |
| 13:10.12 | Helle | anyway, I am going to go out for a bit, I have a compile running and can't really do anything other useful right now as my mental stack is full |
| 13:10.26 | Helle | in a few hours I'll run some tests once I get back to things |
| 13:10.57 | fsmithred | ok, thanks for working on this and reporting |
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| 13:28.15 | bairdy | Is there install iso/imgs of Ascii anywhere? (I'm trying to install to a system that needs a kernel>3.16) |
| 13:30.13 | fsmithred | bairdy, I just made a refracta iso with 4.9 from backports |
| 13:30.25 | fsmithred | it uses devuan repos, so it's really just a remix |
| 13:30.37 | yuki_is_bored | you can get 4.9 from jessie-backports |
| 13:30.54 | fsmithred | it's console-only, so you can add whatever desktop you want |
| 13:31.52 | DusXMT | or you could boot from any live cd that works and debootstrap - of course, that requires some manual configuration to get the system to boot |
| 13:31.57 | fsmithred | I don't think there will be any ascii images until after jessie is released |
| 13:31.59 | DusXMT | (that's what I usually do) |
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| 13:32.44 | fsmithred | https://sourceforge.net/projects/refracta/files/isohybrid/refracta8_nox_amd64_4.9-bpo-20170508_2229.iso |
| 13:33.07 | fsmithred | and that iso has debootstrap installed, so you can do what DusXMT suggested |
| 13:33.36 | bairdy | \o/ |
| 13:34.58 | bairdy | I'll report back after downloading the file through the Australian Internet |
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| 13:35.24 | fsmithred | ok |
| 13:36.16 | fsmithred | installer command is 'refractainstaller' or else debootstrap (and there are some instructions for that.) |
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| 13:41.34 | bairdy | debbootstrap I've played with before.. |
| 13:42.12 | fsmithred | cool |
| 13:42.29 | fsmithred | read my notes. They're short. |
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| 14:08.58 | bairdy | Seems to be functional.. (on a Dell Inspiron 11 3000 netbook-- that needed Linux4 for the mmcblk0 to appear) |
| 14:10.08 | fsmithred | cool. You're not booting from the sd card, are you? |
| 14:10.13 | fsmithred | bairdy, ^^^ |
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| 14:11.52 | firegarden | hi guys: if you are interested i create the telegram devuan group [jaromil give me the ok]. you can find it here https://t.me/DevuanGnuLinux |
| 14:15.21 | bairdy | Nope, usb. I got Ubuntu17 to install without issue when other (release-level) distros didn't, and the kernel version was the difference. |
| 14:16.07 | bairdy | Rebooting, and now trying to remember how to get grub2 working.. |
| 14:16.50 | fsmithred | bairdy, did you debootstrap? |
| 14:17.27 | bairdy | no, refractainstaller |
| 14:17.42 | fsmithred | it didn't install bootloader? |
| 14:18.17 | parazyd | fsmithred: ever did any openbox stuff? i'm wondering how to get installed applications show up in the menu automagically |
| 14:18.32 | fsmithred | parazyd, yeah, it's easy |
| 14:18.37 | fsmithred | cheat |
| 14:18.40 | fsmithred | install lxpanel |
| 14:18.51 | fsmithred | I did add some things to openbox menu |
| 14:18.59 | yuki_is_bored | parazyd: obmenu-generator |
| 14:19.17 | yuki_is_bored | https://github.com/trizen/obmenu-generator |
| 14:19.19 | bairdy | Already had one from the U17 install. It's still working now, I just have to figure out what the cli commands are just to boot kernel & etc, and then I can rewrite the new grub2.conf |
| 14:19.20 | fsmithred | gimme a minute to check. I think there's a menu.xml in ~/.config/openbox or in /etc/xdg/openbox |
| 14:19.20 | parazyd | fsmithred: yeah, but the openbox menu still stays sucky |
| 14:19.28 | parazyd | yuki_is_bored: i'll have a look, ty |
| 14:19.48 | yuki_is_bored | fsmithred: yeah, it's on ~/.config/openbox |
| 14:20.17 | fsmithred | bairdy, boot ubuntu and run update-grub, and the new install should get added to the boot menu |
| 14:20.48 | yuki_is_bored | not quite sure, if you need to setup $XDG_CONFIG_HOME to make openbox read the file |
| 14:21.12 | yuki_is_bored | if so, it's just a simple `export XDG_CONFIG_HOME=$HOME/.config` in your .xprofile/.xinitrc/whatever |
| 14:21.45 | fsmithred | bairdy, if you want to boot from grub command line... |
| 14:22.17 | fsmithred | set root=(hd0,msdosX) #replace X |
| 14:22.29 | fsmithred | linux /vmlinuz ro root=/dev/whatever-it-is |
| 14:22.31 | yuki_is_bored | it's not always (hd0,msdosX) |
| 14:22.35 | yuki_is_bored | ls first ;) |
| 14:22.35 | fsmithred | initrd /initrd.img |
| 14:22.36 | fsmithred | boot |
| 14:22.37 | bairdy | (hd0,gpt2) actually, but I'm onto it now. |
| 14:22.49 | fsmithred | gpt? uefi, too? |
| 14:23.14 | bairdy | "That's why I didn't fiddle around with an already working bootloader..." :) |
| 14:23.25 | fsmithred | you have my sympathy |
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| 14:23.42 | yuki_is_bored | why not use devuan boot cd and boot into rescue mode :/ |
| 14:23.57 | yuki_is_bored | it has an option to reinstall/update grub easily from there |
| 14:24.16 | yuki_is_bored | or chroot |
| 14:25.06 | fsmithred | yuki_is_bored, he's not using the regular installer iso, so d-i is not available |
| 14:25.22 | bairdy | 24 hours ago I was triyng to resurrect an ARM Chromebook, and that involved reflashing the SPI bootrom with soldered wires.. Gave up and just bought a new netbook with a slightly more /accessible/ install procedure. |
| 14:25.49 | fsmithred | wow |
| 14:25.52 | yuki_is_bored | fsmithred: or just use ubuntu and chroot |
| 14:25.55 | yuki_is_bored | :P |
| 14:25.57 | bairdy | yuki_is_bored: new hardware that hates the linux-3.6 kernel that on the currently availabler boot images. |
| 14:26.08 | yuki_is_bored | bairdy: I know |
| 14:26.15 | fsmithred | oh yeah, that too. |
| 14:26.17 | yuki_is_bored | I have a laptop running an i7 kabylake |
| 14:26.31 | yuki_is_bored | in fact, i'm using that laptop right now |
| 14:26.37 | yuki_is_bored | it's running Devuan unstable with KDE 5 ;) |
| 14:28.24 | bairdy | fsmithred: thusly: https://twitter.com/Chris_J_Baird/status/862366217906012160 |
| 14:28.56 | yuki_is_bored | 96 minutes?! |
| 14:29.51 | bairdy | The RPi does not have great USB hardware. |
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| 15:09.15 | meowschwitz | so i ran with devuan on my work desk for two weeks |
| 15:09.28 | meowschwitz | tl;dr ubuntu is fucking off from every box i run |
| 15:09.54 | meowschwitz | last time systemd bullshit broke my yubikey ssh auth out of the blue |
| 15:10.21 | meowschwitz | imagine how nice it is to come to ops in the morning and not be able to log in to any of the production boxes |
| 15:10.42 | meowschwitz | canonical can go lick more cloud butts |
| 15:11.48 | mcr-credil | ha. |
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| 15:33.11 | aitor | hi again |
| 15:34.06 | aitor | parazyd? |
| 15:34.58 | aitor | you were wondering how to get installed applications shown up in the menu automagically |
| 15:35.08 | aitor | i added icons to my popupmenu: |
| 15:35.25 | aitor | gnuinos.org/openbox-menu1.mpg |
| 15:44.32 | cd0 | anything for centos7 similar to that of devuan? |
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| 15:47.25 | aitor | similar to what? |
| 15:48.06 | cd0 | a project to remove systemd from centos7, similar to that of devuan from debian |
| 15:49.27 | aitor | ok |
| 15:50.12 | aitor | i don't think so, but maybe i'm wrong |
| 15:50.14 | KatolaZ | o_O |
| 15:50.47 | AntoFox | :/ |
| 15:50.59 | aitor | hi KatolaZ, Antofox |
| 15:51.05 | KatolaZ | hi o/ |
| 15:51.09 | AntoFox | aitor: \o |
| 15:51.30 | cd0 | #centos didn't think so either |
| 15:51.59 | cd0 | i like the lts/10-yr from centos |
| 15:52.51 | aitor | it's a free redhat, isn't it? |
| 15:54.34 | meowschwitz | I submit we should just remove centos |
| 15:56.28 | golinux | +1 and Red Hat too while we're at it!! |
| 15:56.55 | meowschwitz | allahu akbar |
| 15:57.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>Since openSUSE 12.3 has switched completely to systemd, no more new SysV-style init scripts should be written for openSUSE only - but you might need them so that your package works on older distributions, especially SLE 11.<< https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Packaging_guidelines |
| 15:57.57 | cd0 | centos is community version, yes, centos.org |
| 15:58.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | they encourage developers/maintainers to *drop* support for systemd-free RPM distro |
| 15:58.17 | meowschwitz | people still use SuSE? |
| 15:58.21 | cd0 | i know devuan is fairly new, RC 1 and 2 recently |
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| 15:58.30 | cd0 | but does devuan planning on 10-yr lts? |
| 15:58.57 | meowschwitz | yeah, we need support for lazy bastards who are too pussy to dist-upgrade in production |
| 15:59.37 | cd0 | lts = long term support or software development life cycle (sdlc) |
| 15:59.44 | cd0 | if you like acronyms and all that |
| 15:59.50 | meowschwitz | yes |
| 15:59.59 | meowschwitz | also known as support for lazy bastards who are too pussy to dist-upgrade in production |
| 16:00.11 | cd0 | you got that right :-) |
| 16:03.01 | golinux | The final stable release is expected to have LTS in line with Debian. |
| 16:08.15 | fsmithred | I fit that description, and I'm glad wheezy is still supported. |
| 16:09.09 | fsmithred | I can put it off for another year. |
| 16:13.21 | aitor | brb :) |
| 16:16.32 | cd0 | debian support is 5-yrs? then after that falls under lts? |
| 16:19.24 | fsmithred | three years, then lts: https://twitter.com/Chris_J_Baird/status/862366217906012160 |
| 16:19.55 | fsmithred | oops |
| 16:19.57 | fsmithred | wrong link |
| 16:20.10 | fsmithred | damn, can't copy/paste over vnc |
| 16:21.27 | fsmithred | https://www.freexian.com/services/debian-lts.html |
| 16:24.52 | cd0 | good info, thx |
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| 20:38.55 | greenjeans | trying 4.9 kernel |
| 20:39.15 | greenjeans | without full upgrade to ascii |
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| 21:04.05 | fsmithred | greenjeans, get it from backports |
| 21:04.25 | fsmithred | and get live-boot, et. al. from ascii |
| 21:06.02 | greenjeans | why backports? The one in ascii no good? |
| 21:06.32 | greenjeans | not updating any of the live packages, only the kernel and some select packages |
| 21:07.19 | greenjeans | seems to work |
| 21:08.57 | fsmithred | the one in backports has been backported to work with jessie |
| 21:09.20 | fsmithred | if you want to make a live iso that boots with 4.9 kernel, you need live-boot-2017... |
| 21:09.24 | fsmithred | from ascii |
| 21:12.25 | greenjeans | gotcha, thanks! |
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| 21:28.06 | wulllst | am i right in assuming that login managers are normally running with root privileges? |
| 21:29.19 | parazyd | yes |
| 21:29.35 | wulllst | parazyd: ok, thanks. |
| 21:29.55 | parazyd | it's a joke, isn't it :p |
| 21:30.17 | wulllst | parazyd: no, i just like to be very sure of things i seem to already know. |
| 21:30.19 | parazyd | but what can you do, nobody worries about security these days |
| 21:30.37 | wulllst | or don't know |
| 21:31.00 | parazyd | nah, i'm not saying your question is a joke, rather the security principle |
| 21:31.19 | wulllst | parazyd: ok, i see. |
| 21:31.27 | unixman | Don't use a login manager. ;) |
| 21:31.41 | fsmithred | that won't work in ascii |
| 21:32.11 | parazyd | works for me |
| 21:32.19 | unixman | So, startxfce4 no longer works? |
| 21:32.21 | fsmithred | I'll have to try again |
| 21:32.26 | parazyd | although i still have to run xorg as root |
| 21:32.49 | fsmithred | even with xserver-legacy package? |
| 21:32.57 | parazyd | i don't want anything legacy |
| 21:33.08 | parazyd | even if it "works" |
| 21:34.15 | parazyd | and that's probably the Xwrapper thingie |
| 21:34.27 | parazyd | which caused me headaches on multiple occasions |
| 21:35.39 | wulllst | fsmithred: so, login managers won't run as root in ascii? |
| 21:35.51 | parazyd | they will |
| 21:36.08 | parazyd | he says starting x without a login manager won't work in ascii |
| 21:36.10 | fsmithred | hang on, I just booted into ascii. let me see what happens. |
| 21:36.15 | parazyd | but it seems to have run for me today |
| 21:36.50 | wulllst | well, that would be a bit upsetting, since i tedn to "startx" from a tty. |
| 21:36.53 | parazyd | fsmithred: gpasswd -a yourself input; chown :input /usr/bin/Xorg; chmod g+s /usr/bin/Xorg |
| 21:37.28 | fsmithred | I just started openbox with startx |
| 21:37.38 | parazyd | there you go |
| 21:37.44 | parazyd | but Xorg is running as root |
| 21:37.47 | parazyd | that's what i dislike |
| 21:37.51 | fsmithred | openbox and openbox session are run by user, Xorg by root |
| 21:37.58 | parazyd | yup |
| 21:38.15 | fsmithred | now let me try it with lightdm |
| 21:38.25 | parazyd | same result |
| 21:38.37 | parazyd | just 3 more crap daemons running as root |
| 21:39.45 | gnarface | note that it's not escapable if using nvidia proprietary |
| 21:40.27 | parazyd | gnarface: what isn't? |
| 21:41.38 | fsmithred | some dbus stuff run by lightdm |
| 21:41.49 | fsmithred | in addition to the root X |
| 21:42.03 | parazyd | don't forget consolekit and policykit |
| 21:43.09 | gnarface | parazyd: running Xorg as root/suid |
| 21:43.42 | parazyd | i think it's the way xorg-server is compiled in debian |
| 21:44.10 | parazyd | but why would you use a proprietary driver? |
| 21:44.15 | parazyd | there is nouveau |
| 21:44.40 | gnarface | steam compatibility |
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| 21:51.54 | wulllst | does anyone know of a comprehensive and concise explanation of sudo and the /etc/sudoers file? |
| 21:53.11 | nepugia | man sudo |
| 21:53.58 | nepugia | nouveau has come a nice way managed to play civ v with it.. if you know all icons by heart anyway :) |
| 21:54.07 | Lydia_K | sudo - allow a user escalated privileges on the system |
| 21:54.39 | Lydia_K | /etc/sudoers - the config file for sudo that lets you control who has what privileges for running what commands, etc |
| 21:55.07 | gnarface | wulllst: only the sudo manpage. it will make sense if you read it twice |
| 21:56.05 | wulllst | gnarface: ok, i was just wondering, lookong at it. |
| 21:56.07 | gnarface | wulllst: (at first it just seems inscrutable, but it's merely obnoxiously organized) |
| 21:56.52 | gnarface | you do have to read it ALL though, then the stuff at the beginning makes sense on the second pass |
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| 21:57.45 | gnarface | (a lot of open source documentation is like that. not sure if it's on purpose in this case or not_ |
| 21:57.46 | gnarface | ) |
| 21:58.04 | wulllst | gnarface: ok. i'll give it a try. i'm actually not using sudo myself, just wanted something nice and concise to link to in a forum post. |
| 21:58.20 | fsmithred | no, it's not deliberate, it's written by engineers |
| 21:58.47 | fsmithred | look at examples. |
| 21:59.48 | wulllst | this is probably pretty neat: http://aplawrence.com/Basics/sudo.html |
| 22:00.51 | Lydia_K | examples++ |
| 22:01.43 | gnarface | it's not like there aren't lots of good examples, but sudo configuration is one of those things you REALLY don't want to be just copy&pasting without understanding |
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| 22:02.58 | gnarface | sudo is basically "how to backdoor your own system 101' |
| 22:04.19 | wulllst | gnarface: but it sould be reasonable to use it to enable a user (yourself) to shut down the system when there's no login manager? |
| 22:04.20 | Lydia_K | I just mean for leaning almost anything examples are an excellent place to look. |
| 22:04.20 | gnarface | i'd almost suggest it's better to do without it than use it with only marginal understanding of /etc/sudoers syntax |
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| 22:05.33 | gnarface | wulllst: yea that's a perfectly fine use... just make sure you don't accidentally give ALL users permission to ANYTHING instead |
| 22:05.44 | wulllst | gnarface: right. |
| 22:08.44 | fsmithred | you can just put a file in /etc/sudoers.d/ so you don't even have to mess with the main config. |
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| 22:09.21 | fsmithred | here's a one-liner I use: |
| 22:09.23 | fsmithred | user ALL= NOPASSWD: /usr/sbin/pm-suspend, /usr/sbin/pm-hibernate, /sbin/halt, /sbin/reboot |
| 22:09.32 | fsmithred | user is the user's login name |
| 22:11.31 | gnarface | NOPASSWD creeps me out |
| 22:12.24 | fsmithred | yeah, but the worst they can do is shut down or reboot me |
| 22:12.54 | fsmithred | there's something in that sudo tutorial that bothers me |
| 22:13.21 | fsmithred | he says that you don't need to worry about users messing with system files, and he gives this example |
| 22:13.23 | fsmithred | [jim@lnxserve /tmp]$ sudo date > /etc/shadow |
| 22:13.23 | fsmithred | bash: /etc/shadow: Permission denied |
| 22:13.41 | fsmithred | safe because the redirect happens before the password is given |
| 22:13.48 | fsmithred | but what about 'sudo xterm' |
| 22:14.01 | Lydia_K | sudo bash |
| 22:14.05 | fsmithred | yeah |
| 22:14.06 | parazyd | sudo tee |
| 22:14.07 | Lydia_K | the poor mans root shell |
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| 22:30.47 | wulllst | fsmithred: well, maybe you could post your sudo line to this thread on dev1galaxy: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1404 |
| 22:34.18 | fsmithred | I think he needs to explain how he's trying to shut down first. |
| 22:34.54 | fsmithred | afk for awhile |
| 22:35.43 | nepugia | what about sudo su? lol or sudo passwd |
| 22:37.53 | wulllst | fsmithred: ok, you're right |
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