| 00:00.05 | gnarface | non-free wifi drivers were included in the installer for your convenience so that laptops can install. i don't think you're required to install them into your installation to use them as part of the installer, though nothing stops you from removing them after-the-fact if you make a mistake either |
| 00:01.56 | gnarface | none of that has changed from the debian installers, afaik, has it? |
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| 00:21.33 | *** topic/#devuan is Recent (2017-04-21 - for real now): Jessie 1.0 RC ** https://devuan.org/ discussion channel (logged at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan - with useful 'search') | Please take off-topic conversation to #debianfork | /msg chanserv info #devuan | !listkeys #devuan <foo> | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ |
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| 00:25.43 | fsmithred | too late again. I missed greenjeans. |
| 00:26.30 | fsmithred | gnarface, the wireless firmware is included in the regular installer isos. That was one of the issues in beta2 that got fixed. |
| 00:26.56 | fsmithred | they are not included in the live isos, but we just talked about that today, and they will be included. |
| 00:27.11 | fsmithred | In that case, they'll be installed in the system. |
| 00:28.44 | gnarface | fsmithred: am i right in assuming that installing from the live image gives you a pretty static preconfigured set of packages while installing using the regular installer iso still theoretically allows you to use expert mode and NOT install that package? |
| 00:28.57 | fsmithred | yes |
| 00:29.01 | fsmithred | exactly |
| 00:29.12 | gnarface | i would have told him that if i was sure |
| 00:29.20 | fsmithred | the live installer just copies the running system |
| 00:29.36 | fsmithred | he's more familiar with the live installer, I think |
| 00:30.03 | fsmithred | or at least he's in that mindset, 'cause he's using the refracta tools |
| 00:33.14 | gnarface | yea i didn't expect it but i'm seeing there might be a problem with people getting the wrong idea about the project's ethics if they're not aware there are two different installers |
| 00:33.24 | gnarface | or rather, if they're not aware of how the installers are different |
| 00:34.05 | fsmithred | yeah, I need to write some release notes for the desktop-live |
| 00:34.09 | gnarface | some people might legitimately fear the non-free firmware might get shoved down their throat or otherwise snuck in there |
| 00:34.40 | gnarface | and others might simply assume there isn't a more flexible installer |
| 00:35.00 | fsmithred | and if they aren't included, everyone with a laptop is unhappy |
| 00:35.12 | gnarface | right |
| 00:35.46 | fsmithred | in the Refracta isos, I just have a folder full of the firmware debs, so the user can install them or not. |
| 00:36.04 | fsmithred | and that causes problems, 'cause people don't know how to install them |
| 00:36.26 | fsmithred | and you can install in live session, but some don't work until you reboot, which loses the install |
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| 01:00.58 | NewGnuGuy | fsmithred: There is also the issue of someone unintentionally committing copyright infringement by distributing what they believe to be a fully libre distro if it in fact contains proprietary firmware. |
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| 01:24.05 | ksx4system | meh, there was no warning that disk space requirements for Devuan mirror actually doubled :( |
| 01:24.49 | Centurion_Dan | with regards to the regular installer, it prompts about whether to use non-free firmware, and if you do it is installed and non-free is set to enabled. If you refuse the non-free firmware, you get a binary blob free install. |
| 01:25.41 | Centurion_Dan | If you don't get prompted then you are blessed with RMS approval ;-P |
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| 01:42.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | honestly don't get shanghaied to the army of RMS soldiers to fight in a war that's not yours |
| 01:43.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's totally fine what FSF tries to achieve, but I doubt the strategy |
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| 02:12.37 | Xenguy | While they are absolutely essential, they are also not the only game in town :) |
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| 03:22.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | What I particularly question is stuff like >>A free system distribution must not steer users towards obtaining any nonfree information for practical use, or encourage them to do so.<<# |
| 03:37.52 | AlexLikeRock | http://distrowatch.com/index.php?dataspan=1 last 7 days = # 10 Devuan 904 â |
| 03:37.59 | AlexLikeRock | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:42.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | umm, that ZRL might not be what you intended to post |
| 03:42.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | URL* |
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| 03:44.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=trending maybe? |
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| 03:47.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=ranking could use more love |
| 03:48.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=ratings&distro=devuan |
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| 04:48.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | just realized that http://www.gnu.org/distros/free-system-distribution-guidelines.en.html suffers same `lack of system limits definition´ issue like the RYF. Symptomatic: >>It's important to understand the purpose of the data before deciding whether or not it's appropriate for a free system.<< does not state WHO is the authority to understand. And the whole policy is basically a circle definition: "blobs are forbidden, and a |
| 04:48.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | blob is what we don't want. It's important to understand what's a blob". No definition what what a blob actually IS, technically, and what are the properties that make qualify it as a ban-able object, not to mention any rationale _why_ that class of objects needs to get banned |
| 04:52.52 | golinux | yawns wondering how many angels can dance on the head of a pin . . . |
| 04:54.03 | furrywolf | all of them. |
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| 04:56.44 | DeFender1031 | as many as want to. |
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| 05:26.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | for RYF the FSF defines a peripheral with firmware as a blackbox that doesn't matter, as long as there's no firmware upload or known update feature. I wonder if they wouldn't do themselves a big favor to rather consider blobs as non-functional data which is already allowed. In fact it *is* non-functional data form a Applcation Processor PoV, technically |
| 05:32.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | so as long as my system just displays random noise by `gwenview /usr/share/wl18xx.bin` it is non-functional data or "artwork", but when I do `cat /usr/share/wl18xx.bin >/dev/wl1837/firmware-upload` it suddenly becomes a non-free system? Makes no sense to me |
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| 05:56.25 | gmcastil | how's the RC treating everyone? |
| 05:57.14 | detha | DocScrutinizer05: two ways of looking at it: 1) it doesn't matter if the firmware sits in a PROM on the chip or comes from a blob you download to it. 2) having download facilities enables Evil to give you a backdoored blob, which you cannot detect. |
| 05:58.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | 2) only Evil needs to know about those facilities. Also the whole rationale is orthogonal to the topic of "Free Software" |
| 06:00.00 | detha | Either way, you trust the chip developer. Blobs (with updates) just give the chip developer a chance to go bad retroactively, instead of just going bad with chips produced after date X |
| 06:00.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | defining a Free Distro as "not *mentioning* any update facilities" doesn't make any sense |
| 06:02.42 | detha | 'Free' is not black and white. You can't get the VRML for the CPU you run it on. You may get the source for the firmware running on it (please AMD?). You can have the source for the OS and drivers. Where's the line? |
| 06:03.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | your latter rationale makes even less sense, since a) you wouldn't know if the chip manuf turns rogue at any point in time either way and b) odds are the facilities are in there from beginning anyway, just not disclosed. -- anyway the whole thing sounds like "security by obscurity", not like "we care about FOSS" |
| 06:04.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | detha: yes, I'm totally aware of all that and it's pretty much my point :-) |
| 06:04.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | (latter rationale related to "Either way, you ...") |
| 06:04.52 | MinceR | well, they also like to insist that Free Distros not offer nondefault distros with nonfree software :> |
| 06:05.00 | MinceR | (apparently except for mono and systemd...) |
| 06:06.13 | detha | Chip manufacturers couldn't care less about FOSS. Chip manufacturers care about bottom line. If keeping 'trade secrets' secret earns more than the perceived goodwill from FOSS, guess what happens. That it makes it more difficult to detect backdoors is a side effect |
| 06:08.02 | gmcastil | not to change the subject, but anyone have a suggestion on installing devuan to a system without a display? |
| 06:08.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure. But that's not relevant for Devuan and whether it should or should not provide blobs to grant our users the freedom to use their WLAN chip in their laptop |
| 06:09.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | gmcastil: go for minimal? |
| 06:09.45 | detha | gmcastil: what does it have, if not display? serial console? |
| 06:10.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | istn't there even an image explicitly called "headless"? |
| 06:10.44 | detha | DocScrutinizer05: ubuntu solved that with the bad, or ugle, or whatever it's called repos |
| 06:10.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway, it doesn't matter much if there's a display or not |
| 06:11.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | detha: yep. But not even that is tolerable for FSF |
| 06:11.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>A free system distribution must not steer users towards obtaining any nonfree information for practical use, or encourage them to do so.<< |
| 06:11.49 | gmcastil | DocScrutinizer how does that work? does it create an ssh instance or something? |
| 06:12.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes :-) |
| 06:12.06 | detha | 'We are soo free we wear the shackles of freedom'. FSF is rather extreme with that. |
| 06:12.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | indeed |
| 06:14.16 | gmcastil | DocScrutinizer i did not know that, thanks |
| 06:14.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | yw :-) |
| 06:15.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | gmcastil: nota bene I'm not sure about the 'huge' images. It only applies to e.g the vagrant box and most of the embedded |
| 06:15.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | not sure if e.g live-iso starts sshd per default |
| 06:16.11 | detha | DocScrutinizer05: FWIW, my personal opinion is that the ubuntu 'ugly' thing is the happy medium. Don't enable it by default, but give users the freedom to enable it after they make their own choice to do so. |
| 06:17.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | ack |
| 06:17.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | so Devuan is doing "The Right Thing" I guess |
| 06:18.22 | gmcastil | i just have a machine in the corner that i want to put devuan on and dont want to have to tear apart my desktop setup to put peripherals on....and i've never done a remote install before |
| 06:19.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, wait for the real experts chiming in. I'm a noob |
| 06:19.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'd guess "no problem at all" |
| 06:20.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | I mean, you install Devuan on servers, they are remote and headless per definition |
| 06:20.26 | detha | they also have IPMI, or VMware console |
| 06:20.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | your machine in the corner is just a small server not so remote |
| 06:20.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | hehe, yes that too |
| 06:21.04 | detha | but if it has network, and there is a dhcp server on the network, it should be possible |
| 06:21.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | gmcastil: actually a very good question |
| 06:23.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm absolutely sure the simle distribution kit (name?) will allow making a customized image with working ssh login using your credentials, in no time |
| 06:24.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | if needed. As I said, please wait for the experts to comment on it |
| 06:24.26 | gmcastil | i just dont know what the different images support |
| 06:24.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | neither |
| 06:25.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | KatolaZ: ^^^ |
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| 06:25.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | jaromil: ^^^ |
| 06:27.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | found this (best 'google' hit) https://sowhatisthesolution.wordpress.com/2016/03/13/headless-debian-install-via-ssh/ |
| 06:29.03 | gmcastil | so none of the devuan installers support headless installation? |
| 06:30.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | again, I don't know |
| 06:31.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | you will need to wait until the installer meintainers chime in |
| 06:32.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | Centurion_Dan: ping |
| 06:35.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'd think any installer menu that eventually pops up (resp tries to do so) should probably best default to restarting on sshd, after a timeout |
| 06:38.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | and aiui that's pretty much what that guy over at https://sowhatisthesolution.wordpress.com/2016/03/13/headless-debian-install-via-ssh/ does |
| 06:41.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | vagrant box is a live system with only ssh login |
| 06:41.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | in a VM |
| 06:41.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | FWIW |
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| 06:47.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | gmcastil: anyway, you need to boot from a DVD or USB stick, right? (assuming you're not already running a linux system on that PC in the corner, from which you plan to just upgrade to Devuan). So could you even do this without attaching a kbd and monitor? Depends on your BIOS settings I guess |
| 06:49.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | (actually you could even upgrade to Devuan from a Windows or whatever system, as long as that system has the tools to mess with your boot partition etc) |
| 06:50.08 | gmcastil | i dont follow |
| 06:50.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | what system is coming up on the PC when you power it up now? do you have access to the PC right now, via network? |
| 06:54.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | and assuming you have a CD with a Devuan ISO that is configured for ssh network install, how would you boot that CD? |
| 06:55.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | your PC *might* boot the CD without any interaction from user needed. The chances it does are maybe half/half though, prolly less |
| 06:56.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | usually you need to press some keys at boot time to make a CD boot. Or ven change a config in BIOS |
| 06:58.59 | gmcastil | good questions - i have no idea what hte current configuration is now that you mention it |
| 06:59.14 | gmcastil | so its probably too much of a stretch to figure tha i'll be able to install it as is - |
| 06:59.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | if otoh that PC is already running debian and you just want to switch to devuan, there's no problem at all to do this on headless |
| 06:59.32 | gmcastil | so probably should just unplug a monitor and keyboard and get it stet up |
| 06:59.41 | gmcastil | nah, its a windows box from my mother in law |
| 07:00.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | then it gets tricky to try to do this without kbd and monitor attached |
| 07:02.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | check your monitor. Some have two inputs and a way to switch between both of them ;-) |
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| 07:06.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | you *could* test that PC by simply inserting whatever CD with a linux boot image on it, and see if on power up, the PC seems to run from the DVD or just shortly accesses it to read the volume label and directory |
| 07:07.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | if it's using the CD heavily, odds are you can throw in a ssh network installer and get away without monitor and kbd |
| 07:08.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | most PCs however need user input to avoid running into exactly such scenario on accident |
| 07:08.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | go figure you forgot a rogue CD in that windows machine last evening |
| 07:17.32 | DeFender1031 | https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/5644 I love the hubris... "everyone else MUST have come to the same conclusion about how to handle this case that I did, so I'm not even going to bother testing other stuff to see what they did before telling you that it does the same thing" |
| 07:18.09 | DeFender1031 | (Specifically, https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/5644#issuecomment-290345033) |
| 07:21.21 | gmcastil | yikes |
| 07:21.57 | gmcastil | course, it takes at least 30 seconds to actually create a test case for that sort of thing... |
| 07:22.01 | gmcastil | aint got time for that |
| 07:22.34 | DeFender1031 | well, a little longer if you don't have a handy VM you can snapshot in case, you know, it actually does what you think it does. |
| 07:23.10 | gmcastil | presumably, he's a badass which should be able to do it in like 45 seconds |
| 07:23.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | DeFender1031: hehe yes |
| 07:23.13 | Centurion_Dan | gmcastil: you can do an automated install with preseeding - ie providing a config to the installer - this can either be done by adding the preseed config as a modification to the installer image or using tftp to deploy the installer and the preseed config |
| 07:23.40 | gmcastil | one of the commenters actually cited the fact it took him 5 minutes to get test cases |
| 07:24.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | Centurion_Dan: could at least one image have a default to such ssh install? in case user doesn't press a kbd key |
| 07:25.14 | DeFender1031 | right. If you already have a VM handy, take a snapshot, run the command, see what happens, restore the snapshot. 30 seconds. If not, set up VirtualBox, download and install a basic copy of anything, run the command. 5 minutes. Either way, it doesn't take long. |
| 07:25.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | thinks along the line of grub menu and kernel cmdline parameters |
| 07:25.34 | Centurion_Dan | that'd be do-able... again adding a preseed for that should be sufficient. |
| 07:25.52 | gmcastil | sounds like the simplest option is to just unplug a monitor, keyb and mouse |
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| 07:27.10 | Centurion_Dan | bbl |
| 07:27.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | and default on timeout of grub menu would be ssh netinstall then |
| 07:28.09 | gmcastil | DeFender1031: is he just ignoring the facts there? |
| 07:28.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | pretty usual pattern :-) |
| 07:29.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | poettern |
| 07:29.32 | gmcastil | really unsettling |
| 07:30.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | go for Devuan and steer clear of poetterware ;-) |
| 07:30.24 | gmcastil | hopefully the project is sustainable |
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| 07:30.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh, a bit more every day |
| 07:31.35 | gmcastil | i will build all my systems from source if need be rather than use systemd |
| 07:31.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | though we all hope it won't be needed anymore eventually, when debian grows a brain |
| 07:32.40 | gmcastil | is systemd eventually just going to fail miserably and lead to abandonment of that shit? |
| 07:32.57 | KatolaZ | gmcastil: quite improbable |
| 07:34.01 | gmcastil | so how does systemd not wind up taking over eveyrthing? |
| 07:34.24 | KatolaZ | gmcastil: ? |
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| 07:36.21 | DeFender1031 | gmcastil, I thnk he just didn't bother to test. |
| 07:37.45 | DeFender1031 | gmcastil, it would be very nice to see systemd implode, but I fear that it's more comet than avalanche, gaining mass as it goes, but with nothing for it to run into. |
| 07:38.16 | gmcastil | yeah its hard for me to understand |
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| 07:39.16 | gmcastil | is it more likely that the deb maintainers will change their direction? |
| 07:39.30 | DeFender1031 | the sad part is that there are actually some good ideas in systemd, which, if implemented COMPETENTLY, would be improvements over other more antiquated init models. |
| 07:39.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | Poettering is a RH employee. I think the whole cabal was carefully crafted in advance, and not only by him but way up in management |
| 07:39.38 | KatolaZ | gmcastil: what bothers you? |
| 07:39.59 | gmcastil | KatolaZ: about what? |
| 07:40.04 | DeFender1031 | But they're buried under myriad levels of bloat, incompetence, and attack surface to the point where they're barely recognizable. |
| 07:40.15 | KatolaZ | about systemd staying around |
| 07:40.38 | gmcastil | nothing bothers me about systemd being around - systemd being the only option is what concerns me |
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| 07:40.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | you're not alone :-) |
| 07:40.55 | KatolaZ | gmcastil: then contribute to the alternatives |
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| 07:41.13 | gmcastil | indeed |
| 07:41.22 | KatolaZ | hoping for the best won't suffice |
| 07:41.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | you came to the right place |
| 07:41.35 | gmcastil | indeed |
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| 07:42.17 | DeFender1031 | gmcastil, but similar to what DocScrutinizer05 said, it seems systemd was engineered in advance to be the only option. It invented idioms which basically force "my way or the highway" rather than playing nice with existing stuff. |
| 07:42.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | exactly |
| 07:42.54 | KatolaZ | DeFender1031: true, but this doesn't mean that they will suceed |
| 07:43.02 | KatolaZ | ~succeed |
| 07:43.26 | gmcastil | they appear to have succeeded though |
| 07:43.37 | KatolaZ | gmcastil: no they haven't |
| 07:43.49 | KatolaZ | there are alternatives around |
| 07:43.55 | gmcastil | indeed |
| 07:44.01 | gmcastil | but arent there limitations? |
| 07:44.04 | KatolaZ | and a lot of people are pissed off of systemd |
| 07:44.06 | armin | DeFender1031: well said. |
| 07:44.13 | gmcastil | gnome requires systemd as i understand it |
| 07:44.18 | gmcastil | as does steam |
| 07:44.20 | KatolaZ | so what? |
| 07:44.30 | armin | stop using gnome and steam. it's that easy, really. |
| 07:44.35 | KatolaZ | there will be a way around it |
| 07:44.37 | DeFender1031 | success is measured by popularity in this case. The fact that we're sitting here with a breakaway distro while the original distro is using systemd without any other option seems to indicate that it's succeeding. |
| 07:44.42 | gmcastil | does that not exclude a lot of users? |
| 07:44.45 | KatolaZ | if people roll their sleeves up |
| 07:44.52 | KatolaZ | and do something |
| 07:45.01 | gmcastil | i'm talking normal people |
| 07:45.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | go bitch at steam |
| 07:45.31 | armin | the only reason "normal people" have bigger problems NOT to use systemd should clarify the situation, pretty much. |
| 07:45.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | they don't want to lose customers |
| 07:45.39 | KatolaZ | DeFender1031: debian itself was once a breakaway distro.... |
| 07:45.44 | DeFender1031 | The "so stop complaining and do something about it" talk works for people with the skills to do so, but doesn't work for the majority of people who just want a stable system. |
| 07:45.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | they might gain reason |
| 07:46.11 | gmcastil | I'm stuck on a distro that is years behind the rest because our IT dept doesnt want to adopt a distro using systemd |
| 07:46.13 | KatolaZ | DeFender1031: why are you here then? |
| 07:46.32 | KatolaZ | gmcastil: then suggest devuan |
| 07:46.36 | gmcastil | (referrign to a work distro, sorry) |
| 07:46.46 | armin | gmcastil: what distro is that? |
| 07:46.49 | KatolaZ | this is happening in many many places indeed |
| 07:46.52 | DeFender1031 | KatolaZ, because I want a stable system. I'm not sure what relevance that has to the discussion, though. |
| 07:46.53 | gmcastil | cent OS 6 |
| 07:47.21 | armin | gmcastil: wise decision from the IT dept not to adopt systemd, stupid decision to be stuck on centos 6. |
| 07:47.42 | gmcastil | armin: agreed |
| 07:47.50 | gmcastil | mostly by accident too, i suspect |
| 07:48.06 | gmcastil | IT dude I talked to last week didnt know what systemd or sysvinint were |
| 07:48.07 | armin | also i consider it offending to have to do something not to get a huge something shoven down my throat. |
| 07:48.47 | KatolaZ | armin: but it is necessary, of that something will be shoven down yout throat... |
| 07:48.49 | gmcastil | i'm concerned that there will eventually be services that are not supported by a system that doenst use systemd |
| 07:49.07 | gmcastil | "stop using steam" is not really an option for people that want to use steam |
| 07:49.10 | DeFender1031 | The point is, systemd set itself up to have a monolithic monopoly on the linux init market well in advance by laying the engineering, logistical, and political groundwork that would ensure that things would switch to it en masse and do so in ways that exclude any other system. It's that simple. |
| 07:49.13 | KatolaZ | gmcastil: if they are needed, developers will find a way around that |
| 07:49.16 | gmcastil | thats a retarded answer |
| 07:49.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | hopes for a HUGE BIG usurpd vulnerability shaking up the linux world down to the last granny, eventually .. What? You may dream, no? |
| 07:49.41 | KatolaZ | DeFender1031: I know that, so what is your plan? |
| 07:50.03 | KatolaZ | just sit there and wait that their plan goes to completio? |
| 07:50.42 | armin | that's a bit like saying whoever's uncomfortable with the political system in their country can choose another country... |
| 07:50.47 | DeFender1031 | KatolaZ, well, there's this distro called devuan, maybe you've heard of it... |
| 07:50.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | KatolaZ: no, DeFender1031 obviously does what's available and within competence: look for alternatives and use them |
| 07:51.10 | gmcastil | how is devuan going to support steam? |
| 07:51.17 | KatolaZ | DeFender1031: :) |
| 07:51.38 | gmcastil | users that want to use gnome....how is devuan going to support them? |
| 07:52.23 | KatolaZ | by trying to work around the limitations imposed by systemd |
| 07:52.49 | gmcastil | you're obviously a politician |
| 07:53.01 | DeFender1031 | only way to do that would be to create an init system which uses the same idiotic idioms as systemd. |
| 07:53.03 | KatolaZ | I strongly believe in the power of the large FS community |
| 07:53.06 | gmcastil | "endless hacks" is not a solution most users are going to want to go throuh |
| 07:53.29 | DeFender1031 | (i'm on a linguistic roll today... "monolithic monopoly", "idiotic idioms"...) |
| 07:53.30 | gmcastil | KatolaZ: yeah, except that the FS community is charging ahead into systemd land |
| 07:53.37 | KatolaZ | of you think it's a lost battle., just go back to Debian |
| 07:53.45 | KatolaZ | ~if |
| 07:53.54 | KatolaZ | it's so easy |
| 07:54.05 | gmcastil | yeah, that attitude is *totally* what the non-systemd community needs |
| 07:54.06 | KatolaZ | ant steam works seamlessly |
| 07:54.27 | KatolaZ | gmcastil: what's your plan? |
| 07:54.34 | gmcastil | i'm asking what YOUR plan is |
| 07:54.39 | KatolaZ | gmcastil: what's your plan? |
| 07:54.51 | gmcastil | i'm not a dev |
| 07:54.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | gmcastil: please stop that service mentality |
| 07:55.37 | KatolaZ | my plan is to help guaranteeing that an alternative will exist, whatever the cost |
| 07:55.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | the plans for gnome so far are: devuan won't support it |
| 07:55.54 | KatolaZ | DocScrutinizer05: we will see |
| 07:55.57 | gmcastil | my point is, that for some users, it isnt an alternative |
| 07:56.07 | KatolaZ | fine, |
| 07:56.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | KatolaZ: that's why I said "so far" |
| 07:56.18 | DeFender1031 | there seem to be two ways to have an option around systemd: 1. an init system that supports the same idioms as systemd but is otherwise programmed sanely (likely with those idioms wrapped as well as possible to saner internals) 2. convince software which is switching to systemd-only idioms to allow other options. |
| 07:56.20 | KatolaZ | this doesn't stop me from trying |
| 07:56.23 | gmcastil | just saying "Go fuck yourself" isnt really a good attitutde |
| 07:56.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | gmcastil: just so much we can do about it |
| 07:56.38 | gmcastil | maybe thats all there is then |
| 07:56.48 | KatolaZ | gmcastil: never said that to anybody |
| 07:56.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | gnome is a mess |
| 07:56.56 | gmcastil | but thats the attitude |
| 07:57.02 | KatolaZ | uh? |
| 07:57.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | has a deja vu |
| 07:57.34 | KatolaZ | gmcastil: do you read what I write? or you read only what you write? |
| 07:57.54 | gmcastil | its weird...i'm dual booting windows and linux, but now its to cover the shortcomings of linux |
| 07:57.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | please, stay polite! both of you |
| 07:58.07 | gnu_srs | Hi, maybe we should look at elogind to make gnome available? |
| 07:58.20 | KatolaZ | gnu_srs: exactly |
| 07:58.56 | gmcastil | i could be wrong....but the attitude I see is "If your use case doesnt fit a non-systemd world, then your use case is flawed until it does" |
| 07:59.15 | KatolaZ | gmcastil: where did I say that? |
| 07:59.23 | KatolaZ | o_O |
| 07:59.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | gmcastil: that's ot devuan's attitude |
| 07:59.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | so please stop it |
| 07:59.42 | armin | 09:56 [gmcastil] just saying "Go fuck yourself" isnt really a good attitutde |
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| 08:00.00 | armin | that's pretty much the attitude of systemd, but definitely not of devuan. |
| 08:00.22 | armin | just my 0.02⬠|
| 08:00.25 | DeFender1031 | gmcastil, no, more like "we're doing the best we can in a world stacked against sanity, and we wish there was an easy way to support these things, but there isn't currently, and we need help" |
| 08:00.35 | *** join/#devuan [0__0] (~0__0]@54.85.45.223) |
| 08:00.38 | DeFender1031 | armin, good point. |
| 08:00.42 | KatolaZ | DeFender1031: well said |
| 08:01.02 | gmcastil | perhaps i was misunderstanding the tone then |
| 08:01.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 08:01.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | gmcastil: KatolaZ's tone is easy to get wrong |
| 08:01.27 | DeFender1031 | gmcastil, I was too, until I realized what KatolaZ actually meant. |
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| 08:01.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | but we're definitely not a "go fuck yourself" community |
| 08:02.01 | gmcastil | what i read earlier, I took to mean, "If a systemd based on systemd fulfills your needs, then clearly your needs are broken and retarded." |
| 08:02.20 | KatolaZ | gmcastil: I didn't say neither broken not retarded... |
| 08:02.21 | KatolaZ | o_O |
| 08:02.25 | gmcastil | i inferred |
| 08:02.33 | KatolaZ | 08:53 < KatolaZ> of you think it's a lost battle., just go back to Debian |
| 08:02.33 | KatolaZ | 08:53 < KatolaZ> ~if |
| 08:02.47 | gmcastil | entirely possible i'm missing the thrust of the argument |
| 08:02.50 | KatolaZ | gmcastil: you'd better stay with the literal meaning :) |
| 08:03.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | could we stop this now, please? |
| 08:03.25 | KatolaZ | I have stopped it already |
| 08:03.29 | gmcastil | im not trying to create drama, i'm just asking questions |
| 08:03.39 | KatolaZ | kepp going with your nihilist thoughts if you like :) |
| 08:03.44 | gmcastil | not helpign |
| 08:03.45 | KatolaZ | bettter things to do |
| 08:03.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | could we stop this now, please? |
| 08:04.04 | DeFender1031 | i think the thrust is that instead of criticizing devuan for having no way to support systemd-only software, we need to criticize the systemd-only software for not providing an alternative, and pester them until they do. |
| 08:04.19 | gmcastil | what do i tell coworkers that ask me "How do I get dropbox working on my linux machine?" |
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| 08:04.38 | KatolaZ | gmcastil: is dropbox depending on systemd? |
| 08:04.40 | gmcastil | ...i'm not criticizing...i'm very thankful in the work fo the devs |
| 08:04.43 | KatolaZ | it works on my computer |
| 08:04.48 | KatolaZ | and I don't have systemd |
| 08:04.52 | KatolaZ | o_O |
| 08:05.15 | armin | DeFender1031: amen. |
| 08:05.20 | gmcastil | doesnt work out of the box on devuan...had a coworker msg me today about this very thing |
| 08:05.39 | gnu_srs | gmcastil: 1) Why are you asking all these questions? 2) Are you considering switching to Devuan? 3) What can you contribute with if so? |
| 08:05.40 | gmcastil | and several people that i've steered towards devuan have balked becasue of the lack of steam |
| 08:05.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | gmcastil: you still sound angry and demanding |
| 08:05.49 | edbarx | What about QEMU letting its guest accessing USB ports? |
| 08:05.51 | gmcastil | gnu_srsi run devuan on every linux machine in my house |
| 08:06.13 | DeFender1031 | gmcastil, if asked "how do I get [insert name of systemd-only software] working on my linux machine" I'd respond with "pester [insert name of systemd-only software] for generic support" |
| 08:06.50 | DeFender1031 | anyway, I'm out. |
| 08:07.13 | gmcastil | DeFender1031: thats fine, as an answer to myself, but it ist going to grow the devuan user base when the answer is "Not our problem, go use a different distro" |
| 08:08.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | gmcastil: last warning. Please stop that passive aggression like >>when the answer is "Not our problem, go use a different distro"<< |
| 08:08.13 | gmcastil | there are lots of linux users that want a) a stable system and b) a system that provides them with their expected software options |
| 08:08.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | and you think we need you to teach us? |
| 08:09.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | guess what, we are all part of that group |
| 08:09.21 | gmcastil | nope, was literally asking questions....guess i got my answers |
| 08:10.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | seems you picked what you needed to make up the answers you expected to hear |
| 08:10.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | !question |
| 08:10.26 | infobot | i guess question is if you have a question and want people to give useful answers, make sure you have read this first: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html >>This guide will teach you how to ask questions in a way more likely to get you a satisfactory answer.<< |
| 08:10.28 | gmcastil | not really, i just asked questions and got told to pick a different distro if i didnt like it |
| 08:10.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | no |
| 08:10.50 | KatolaZ | 08:53 < KatolaZ> of you think it's a lost battle., just go back to Debian |
| 08:10.54 | gmcastil | yes thank you, i've never read the internet for noobs before |
| 08:11.11 | gmcastil | ^ yeah, that had a lot to do with it |
| 08:11.17 | edbarx | Devuan is making an effort. Indeed it succeeded to set the momentum for change. Linux is about choice. Choice does not come from having all distributions with the same base. Choice comes from having a modular architecture. Is systemd modular enough to be replaced by other packages? |
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| 08:20.05 | gmcastil | i've clearly misunderstood some folks - i apologize |
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| 08:20.38 | gmcastil | so a better question is, what are the chances / opportunities to run the dropbox or steam clients on devuan? |
| 08:21.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
| 08:22.01 | AntoFox | dropbox/caja-dropbox run on devuan... |
| 08:25.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | can't comment about steam, never touched it |
| 08:26.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's a commercial thing afaik, so not much we can do about it when it has hard dependencies on systemd |
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| 08:27.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe it nevertheless runds with systemd-shim? |
| 08:27.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | runs* |
| 08:29.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | as I already said: bitch about it at the company that provides it, they want customers so they should take care |
| 08:30.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's a very easy thing every Devuan user can do |
| 08:30.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2017-04-25 Tue 10:06:13] <DeFender1031> gmcastil, if asked "how do I get [insert name of systemd-only software] working on my linux machine" I'd respond with "pester [insert name of systemd-only software] for generic support" |
| 08:31.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | gmcastil: dropbox doesn't work for you? |
| 08:33.06 | gmcastil | dropbox is probably a bad example - the complaint i was given was that there was no out of the box support |
| 08:33.47 | gmcastil | I think i'm implicitly targeting enterprise users that want a distro that they can deploy en masse |
| 08:34.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | you might need a custom build then, configured to your needs |
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| 08:35.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm pretty happy when my system doesn't come with stuff like dropbox pre-installed |
| 08:35.35 | gmcastil | agreed |
| 08:35.55 | gmcastil | with something like fedora, there is a predefined package for installing it |
| 08:36.59 | gmcastil | i think thats the complaint that i've fielded |
| 08:37.20 | gmcastil | which is largely why we're on an antiquated version of RH |
| 08:37.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | tried `apt-cache search dropbox` ? |
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| 08:39.07 | gmcastil | yep, mine comes back empty |
| 08:39.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | AntoFox to the rescue then :-) |
| 08:39.21 | gmcastil | threre s aperl module and an API library |
| 08:39.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | never touched dropbox either |
| 08:39.39 | gmcastil | i dont actualy have a dropbox account |
| 08:40.12 | gmcastil | i'm just reprting observations...last week i told three coworkers to try to the RC of devuan, and the qeustions i got back were |
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| 08:40.21 | gmcastil | "none of my shit i supported" |
| 08:40.54 | gmcastil | i'm not making claims of my own here |
| 08:41.12 | gmcastil | i've been running the RC since about 5 minutes after it was releeased |
| 09:05.35 | KatolaZ | gmcastil: there is a deb package for dropbox |
| 09:05.40 | KatolaZ | on their download page |
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| 10:17.35 | KatolaZ | http://news.softpedia.com/news/devuan-gnu-linux-1-0-0-jessie-just-around-the-corner-release-candidate-out-515111.shtml |
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| 10:21.15 | zono50 | What up everybuddy |
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| 11:18.26 | Enrico_Menotti | I am a bit in a trouble with automatic module loading after boot (the system boots and the rootfs is mounted). I found some info but I'm a bit confused. First, there is a /etc/modules file to list modules to be loaded. But seems that in Debian, with systemd, there's instead an /etc/modules-load-d directory, containing .conf files with the module names. Now how is this accomplished in Devuan? |
| 11:18.59 | Enrico_Menotti | I checked the module loading by modprobe <module> after boot, and this works. However, if I put the name of the module in /etc/modules, this does not work. |
| 11:19.21 | Enrico_Menotti | Also the /etc/modules-load.d directory does not seem to work. |
| 11:21.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | this all depends on initscripts to read those /etc/modules etc and call modprobe with the parameters found in there. So you need that majik initscript ;-) |
| 11:22.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, I didn't look into it to check how it's done (or if it's done at all) in devuan |
| 11:22.37 | DeFender1031 | DocScrutinizer05, gmcastil, KatolaZ, I was thinking about the little misunderstanding earlier, and I was wondering whether there is/should be a webpage on the devuan site somewhere entitled "what can I do to help?" which covers things like getting lots of people to complain to software vendors, developing devuan further, donating, etc. |
| 11:23.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | makes sense |
| 11:23.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | golinux: ^^^ |
| 11:27.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | Enrico_Menotti: on my debian system it's /etc/modprobe.d/*.conf |
| 11:28.37 | Enrico_Menotti | Debian or Devuan? |
| 11:30.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | both |
| 11:31.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | those are module options and blacklist though |
| 11:33.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | man modprobe.d |
| 11:33.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry |
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| 11:35.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | etc/modules should work: http://paste.ubuntu.com/24453730 |
| 11:37.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | the initfile seems to be /etc/./init.d/kmod |
| 11:37.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://paste.ubuntu.com/24453734 |
| 11:38.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | Enrico_Menotti: ^^^ |
| 11:39.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | the beauty of sysvinit ;-D |
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| 11:39.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | with fuckmed I had given up on finding out about it, after 3h |
| 11:46.17 | Enrico_Menotti | <PROTECTED> |
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| 11:47.57 | KatolaZ | Enrico_Menotti: you must start kmod |
| 11:48.07 | KatolaZ | it is kmod which takes care of loadind modules |
| 11:48.26 | KatolaZ | ~loasing |
| 11:48.29 | KatolaZ | ~loading |
| 11:52.35 | Enrico_Menotti | KatolaZ So I need to specify explicitly kmod to be started? Where? /etc/init? |
| 11:54.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's /etc/init.d/kmod which should get run automatically by init |
| 11:54.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | don't know where it's symlinked to |
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| 11:56.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | # Default-Start: S |
| 11:58.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | run VERBOSE=yes /etc/init.d/kmod manually, see what it does |
| 11:58.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | VERBOSE=yes /etc/init.d/kmod |
| 11:59.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | there are a few tests in that script that may make it quit silently |
| 11:59.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | e.g when no /proc7modules or no executable modprobe |
| 11:59.56 | Enrico_Menotti | Ok. I will do. |
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| 12:09.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | Enrico_Menotti: cat /etc/rcS.d/README; ls -l /etc/rcS.d/S*kmod |
| 12:10.50 | Enrico_Menotti | DocScrutinizer05 I will read. For now I have done the VERBOSE=yes /etc/init.d/kmod. This does not produce anything, it seems. Maybe I did something wrong. |
| 12:11.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | add a "set +v" at start of the script, temporarily |
| 12:11.57 | KatolaZ | Enrico_Menotti: is it linked into /etc/rcS.d? |
| 12:12.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | oops "set -v" |
| 12:12.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | cat /etc/rcS.d/README; ls -l /etc/rcS.d/S*kmod |
| 12:13.21 | KatolaZ | better if you use update-rc.d though |
| 12:13.28 | KatolaZ | the result is the same |
| 12:14.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | hm ? |
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| 12:15.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | Enrico_Menotti: instead of editing the kmod script, you could as well do: |
| 12:15.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | set -v |
| 12:15.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | source /etc/init.d/kmod |
| 12:15.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | set +v |
| 12:16.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | I hope there's no "exit" in the script ;-) |
| 12:16.48 | rrq | needs to "me /etc/init.d/kmod start" I'd guess |
| 12:17.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | prolly not, seems the script doesn't care much about parameters |
| 12:17.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | except of spitting a warning about meaningless stop |
| 12:18.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | but sure, append a " start", can't hurt |
| 12:19.21 | Enrico_Menotti | What is the "me"? |
| 12:19.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | what's "me "? |
| 12:19.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | oops |
| 12:20.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | I autocorrected that as `needs to be " ` |
| 12:20.52 | Enrico_Menotti | :) |
| 12:20.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | try |
| 12:20.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | source /etc/init.d/kmod start |
| 12:21.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | after set -v |
| 12:21.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | o/ |
| 12:26.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | oops sorry, the file _has_ an exit which will close your shell when sourced |
| 12:28.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | Enrico_Menotti: bash -c "set -v; source /etc/init.d/kmod start" |
| 12:28.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | bbl |
| 12:28.49 | Enrico_Menotti | I got some info about kmod, and at the end "silently exit if the kernel does not support modules", and "[-f proc/modules] || exit 0". |
| 12:30.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | see? |
| 12:30.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://paste.ubuntu.com/24453921 |
| 12:31.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | root@devuan:~# ls -l /proc/modules |
| 12:31.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | -r--r--r-- 1 root root 0 Apr 25 12:31 /proc/modules |
| 12:36.10 | Enrico_Menotti | I tried with bash -c "set -v; source /etc/init.d/kmod start", but got nothing different. |
| 12:36.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, obviously |
| 12:36.59 | Enrico_Menotti | Sorry, I don't get the point. What's happening? |
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| 12:37.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | make sure your system mounts /proc and kernel allows modules |
| 12:37.53 | Enrico_Menotti | Well, the kernel allows modules. If I load them with modprobe all is fine. |
| 12:38.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | root@devuan:~# ls -l /proc/modules |
| 12:38.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | -r--r--r-- 1 root root 0 Apr 25 12:31 /proc/modules |
| 12:40.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | waves and heads out |
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| 12:42.46 | Enrico_Menotti | Ok, the system does not mount /proc/modules. What's happening? |
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| 12:45.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | does it mount /proc? |
| 12:45.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | root@devuan:~# mount|grep proc |
| 12:45.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | proc on /proc type proc (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime) |
| 12:46.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | ls -ld /proc |
| 12:46.41 | Enrico_Menotti | I tried ls -l /proc. The result is only "total 0". |
| 12:46.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | o.O |
| 12:47.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | no idea who and when mounts proc |
| 12:47.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | your system is messed up |
| 12:51.02 | Enrico_Menotti | Obviously there's something wrong. But I cannot understand where. The kernel I'm using works just fine with Debian. With watchdogs in modules. I simply deboostrapped Devuan from Devuan on my old laptop. With the kernel from parazyd it boots and is stable. With my kernel (watchdogs in modules), if I ask init=/bin/bash, I can load modules by modprobe and it works fine. Then the system is stable. However, if I try ls -l |
| 12:51.03 | Enrico_Menotti | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:53.00 | KatolaZ | Enrico_Menotti: if you init with bash /proc is not yet mounted.... |
| 12:53.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | root@devuan:~# grep -r "proc .*proc " /etc /usr/lib/ |
| 12:53.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | /etc/init.d/mountkernfs.sh: domount "$MNTMODE" proc "" /proc proc "-onodev,noexec,nosuid" |
| 12:53.41 | Enrico_Menotti | KatolaZ But I tried also with the normal init (no init parameter), and the modules are not loaded. |
| 12:55.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | cat /etc/init.d/mountkernfs.sh |
| 12:58.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | err WUT?? init=/bin/bash??? and you wonder why no initscripts are started? |
| 12:59.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | God gracious, give that system a decent kernel cmdline! |
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| 13:01.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | you know we're talking about the init system here, aka PID1, aka the obnoxious init=systemd which we want to replace by sysvinit in Devuan ;-D |
| 13:02.11 | Enrico_Menotti | If I don't state an init, the system does not propose a prompt: due to the absence of watchdogs, it reboots before the prompt appears. That's why I gave the init=/bin/bash. In this way I have been able to check with modprobe which modules are needed to have a stable system. |
| 13:02.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, with init=/bin/bash you can get a systemd free system in less than 5 minutes, no matter what you installed ;-) |
| 13:02.17 | gnu_srs | Enrico_Menotti: ls -l /proc/modules on a Debian system: /proc/mounts -> self/mounts, ls -l /proc/self/mounts size zero. |
| 13:02.38 | gnu_srs | cat /proc/self/mounts: A lot of entries |
| 13:03.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | gnu_srs: he doesn't mount /proc |
| 13:03.07 | gnu_srs | ok |
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| 13:04.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | what's the initscript parser that gets called by init in devuan? |
| 13:05.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | aaah, l3:3:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 3 |
| 13:06.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | Enrico_Menotti: you want to run `/etc/init.d/rc 3` (or whatever your runlevel you want to enter) |
| 13:07.11 | MinceR | shouldn't they be running telinit 3 or something like that? |
| 13:07.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | or that |
| 13:08.52 | gnu_srs | What about init 3? |
| 13:09.00 | Enrico_Menotti | Sorry, I don't get the point. Do I have to specify an init parameter to the kernel in any case? |
| 13:09.16 | Enrico_Menotti | (In Debian, it looks it's not necessary.) |
| 13:09.39 | Enrico_Menotti | (Also with parazyd's kernel, in Devuan, I did not specify the init parameter.) |
| 13:10.31 | MinceR | dunno, init 3 might be fine too |
| 13:11.10 | MinceR | you shouldn't need an init parameter, afaik |
| 13:11.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | when you don't specify init= on kernel cmdline, I guess it looks for a builtin default, prolly /sbin/init |
| 13:11.15 | MinceR | init is supposed to be /sbin/init |
| 13:11.21 | gnu_srs | Enrico_Menotti: Which init (pid1) system do you have? |
| 13:11.33 | MinceR | some lendows distros don't put systemd there and so they use init= to specify it |
| 13:13.16 | Enrico_Menotti | gnu_srs I don't know, since if I don't specify the init the system is unstable. I don't get a prompt to check the pid 1 process. |
| 13:13.59 | gnu_srs | Dont you get a prompt with init=/bin/bash? |
| 13:14.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | so when you booted into init=/bin/bash instead, you could do `exec /sbin/init` and system will do as if you omitted the init= |
| 13:15.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | or you run the initscripts in bash, by `source /etc/init.d/rc 3` |
| 13:15.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | since this is what /sbin/init does |
| 13:15.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | basically |
| 13:16.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | gnu_srs: he does |
| 13:16.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | and then he has no /proc, which isn't exactly unexpected |
| 13:16.59 | MinceR | hm, maybe the initramfs can complicate things? |
| 13:17.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | oooh, good point |
| 13:17.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway, I'm out now for good |
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| 13:18.46 | Enrico_Menotti | I have a news. I tried to boot with init=/bin/bash. Then ran a script with /etc/init.d/mountkernfs.sh at the first line. Then set -v. Then source /etc/init.d/kmod start. That worked. The watchdogs got loaded and the system is stable. |
| 13:19.00 | Enrico_Menotti | MinceR I'm not using an initramfs. |
| 13:20.32 | MinceR | no initrd either? |
| 13:20.41 | Enrico_Menotti | No. |
| 13:21.01 | MinceR | well, then at least you avoid a bunch of uncertainty :) |
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| 13:21.48 | user_____ | Enrico_Menotti: You used init=/bin/bash and your system has job control? |
| 13:22.18 | user_____ | damnit, wth is my nick not set... |
| 13:23.23 | _stephen | Whenever I've explicitly set init to something there's never been job control, ie, couldn't background/foreground tasks. |
| 13:23.50 | Enrico_Menotti | Actually there is some message about no job control. |
| 13:24.15 | Enrico_Menotti | Although I don't know what does actually mean... |
| 13:25.05 | _stephen | It means, you might not be able to background a running task and then foreground it again. |
| 13:25.47 | Enrico_Menotti | Ok. |
| 13:26.03 | _stephen | also probably cannot issue a reboot or shutdown... |
| 13:26.10 | Enrico_Menotti | In fact. |
| 13:26.17 | Enrico_Menotti | I had to remove the battery. |
| 13:26.39 | _stephen | alt sysreq magic keys might still work... |
| 13:27.03 | _stephen | When I've had to use a custom init to reset a password for example, normally I just remount / as ro and then hold the power button. |
| 13:27.40 | Enrico_Menotti | The problem is that the keyboard is not configured yet. So I don't have any non-alphabetic symbol to navigate. |
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| 13:30.39 | Enrico_Menotti | In any case, now my question is: if I don't specify an init, the init scripts should be run by default, right? (And this kernel does correctly this job with Debian.) But why the modules are not loaded? Is the kmod script not executed? |
| 13:31.12 | Enrico_Menotti | I will say that I noticed a delay at boot. That may cause modules to be loaded too late. |
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| 13:35.04 | KatolaZ | DeFender1031: that's a good suggestion :) |
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| 13:50.48 | DeFender1031 | KatolaZ, thank you. Just trying to do what very little *I* can to help :P |
| 13:51.26 | KatolaZ | DeFender1031: can you prepare a draft of such page, pls? |
| 13:51.38 | KatolaZ | doesn't have to be complete |
| 13:51.46 | KatolaZ | maybe a list of points to be expanded |
| 13:52.06 | KatolaZ | so that we can circulate and include it in www.devuan.org |
| 13:52.37 | KatolaZ | you might also post it on DNG, to have feedback |
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| 14:17.19 | DeFender1031 | Erm... I can give it a shot, but I actually know very little myself about how to contribute. I'm not really a part of the community, I'm just a devuan user who decided to lurk in this channel because I once asked for help setting something up and got a much friendlier response than the typical one in debian channels. Quite frankly, I was hoping there would be such a page so that I could READ it. :P |
| 14:23.07 | KatolaZ | DeFender1031: just put together a draft |
| 14:23.11 | KatolaZ | and post it in DNG |
| 14:23.13 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 14:23.38 | KatolaZ | you'll receive feedback, and the community might have other interesting ideas |
| 14:23.47 | KatolaZ | about how everyone can contribute to Devuan :) |
| 14:24.43 | KatolaZ | just put down a list of few things to which you believe users/enthusiasts/developers/others can contribute |
| 14:24.51 | KatolaZ | the community will do the rest |
| 14:33.19 | DeFender1031 | See, I don't even knoe what "DNG" is... |
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| 14:34.07 | _stephen | https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng |
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| 14:51.57 | Vall | Howdy folks |
| 14:52.09 | nikitis | So, I just installed Devuan, and am finally booted for the first time. Wireless networking worked during install to download packages, but now that it's officially booted, (Running KDE) it's nowhere to be found. I can't even find setup for it |
| 14:52.19 | KatolaZ | DeFender1031: https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng |
| 14:52.31 | Vall | BuZz, are you online? |
| 14:52.43 | buZz | yes |
| 14:52.50 | Vall | ah ;-) |
| 14:53.30 | Vall | buZz, my initial tests with LXC here went quite well... using a Devuan Jessie host and a *Debian* Jessie container. |
| 14:53.34 | *** join/#devuan neutron_stz (~Icedove@89.253.144.79) |
| 14:53.48 | buZz | \o/ |
| 14:53.54 | Vall | Have you run Devuan inside a container already? |
| 14:54.10 | buZz | no, i need to make an image for proxmox for it |
| 14:54.35 | nikitis | Anyone know how I can set my wireless networking? |
| 14:54.39 | Vall | An image or a "template"? (not trying to be a nitpick, just making sure I follow you) |
| 14:54.47 | buZz | nikitis: i use 'wicd' |
| 14:54.53 | buZz | template , sorry |
| 14:55.01 | Vall | buZz: no prob ;-) |
| 14:55.17 | buZz | pendantics rule the world ;) |
| 14:55.18 | Vall | So, there isn't a LXC template for Devuan yet, right? |
| 14:55.44 | buZz | there is https://git.devuan.org/gregolsen/lxc-devuan |
| 14:55.51 | buZz | havent tried it yet though |
| 14:55.54 | Vall | Ah! |
| 14:55.55 | Vall | nice! |
| 14:56.06 | Vall | Nothing better than avoiding reinventing the wheel ;-) |
| 14:56.33 | Vall | Thanks for the pointer, buZz |
| 14:56.37 | buZz | got that right :P welcome |
| 14:57.00 | Vall | LOL |
| 14:57.16 | Vall | And BTW, LXC is beating the heck out of Docker here on my tests. |
| 14:57.39 | Vall | Much more transparent and totally non-invasive |
| 14:58.19 | Vall | Docker is more like a "master" than a tool |
| 14:59.53 | Vall | And by "master" I mean something like that: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/98/d8/47/98d8478d7725b07247dc9326b9eba631.jpg |
| 15:00.08 | Vall | Thank you, but no thank you ;-) LXC is much more my thing ;-) |
| 15:01.27 | fsmithred | nikitis, do you know what program kde uses for network management? DId they get rid of the control center (kcontrol)? |
| 15:01.58 | *** join/#devuan vvande (~vvande@167.88.112.90) |
| 15:02.18 | Vall | On a related note, do you folks have any idea when the definitive 1.0.0 (ie, the next after the RC, right?) will be out? |
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| 15:02.59 | fsmithred | no Vall, but I would guess a couple of weeks |
| 15:03.13 | buZz | Vall: seen the boycot-docker stuff? :P |
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| 15:03.18 | nikitis | fsmithred: I'll check. I don't seem to have eth0 or wlan0. Plugging in ethernet doesn't light up, tested cable it works. lspci shows intel 82579LM for ethernet. and intel centrino 6300 for wireless |
| 15:03.29 | Vall | buZz: no! Where? I want to join ;-) |
| 15:03.33 | buZz | http://containerjournal.com/2016/12/19/people-want-boycott-docker/ |
| 15:03.36 | Vall | fsmithred: thanks pal! |
| 15:03.38 | nikitis | no kcontrol |
| 15:03.42 | Vall | gotta have a look now ;-) |
| 15:04.16 | fsmithred | did you try rebooting with the wire connected? |
| 15:04.19 | buZz | nikitis: be sure to use 'ifconfig -a' to see all interfaces (even once that arent enabled) |
| 15:04.27 | KatolaZ | nikitis: what does dmesg say? |
| 15:04.28 | fsmithred | or ip a |
| 15:04.28 | nikitis | fsmithred: no, let me try |
| 15:04.42 | nikitis | ah yes |
| 15:04.44 | buZz | one day i'll learn to use 'ip' :P |
| 15:04.44 | nikitis | present |
| 15:04.53 | fsmithred | me too, buzz |
| 15:05.08 | nikitis | ifconfig -a shows them |
| 15:05.17 | *** join/#devuan paradigm (~paradigm@206.253.165.144) |
| 15:05.17 | buZz | if it wasnt on slackware 3.0, it cant be good, right? :P |
| 15:05.22 | Vall | buZz: nice page ;-) |
| 15:05.24 | buZz | nikitis: excellent |
| 15:05.37 | buZz | Vall: there used to be a hip page about it aswell, but i think thats down |
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| 15:05.50 | Vall | Will forward it to a docker-loving friend of mine (who is, otherwise, a good person) ;-) |
| 15:05.53 | buZz | http://www.boycottdocker.org/ |
| 15:06.01 | buZz | might be findable in web.archive |
| 15:06.03 | fsmithred | if kde does not have a wireless manager, you could just install wicd |
| 15:06.20 | Vall | someone should register http://fuckdockerover.org/ ;-) |
| 15:06.42 | Vall | or better yet, http://fuckdockerandthehorseitrodeonin.org/ ;-) |
| 15:06.50 | nikitis | buZz: L1 Disabled - LTR Disabled |
| 15:06.51 | fsmithred | I recall having trouble finding kde network settings in the past. |
| 15:06.53 | Vall | brb |
| 15:06.54 | buZz | Vall: http://web.archive.org/web/20170123121541/http://www.boycottdocker.org/ |
| 15:06.55 | Vall | (lunch) |
| 15:07.08 | nikitis | Loaded firmware |
| 15:07.09 | buZz | bon appetit |
| 15:07.22 | buZz | nikitis: whats L1 and LTR? |
| 15:10.00 | nikitis | i dunno |
| 15:10.12 | nikitis | i'mma restart with ethernet plugged in |
| 15:11.51 | nikitis | didn't work, no light |
| 15:12.07 | nikitis | dmesg doesn't have any errors I can see |
| 15:12.13 | nikitis | seems to load the drivers |
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| 15:14.08 | buZz | nikitis: try 'ifconfig eth0 up' |
| 15:14.13 | buZz | does that enable the lights? :) |
| 15:14.17 | nikitis | i tried, no luck |
| 15:14.18 | buZz | (with cable inside) |
| 15:14.19 | buZz | aw |
| 15:14.30 | buZz | maybe the lights are just disabled? |
| 15:14.34 | nikitis | oh wait |
| 15:14.36 | nikitis | it worked |
| 15:14.37 | buZz | my new atom has 'night mode' in bios |
| 15:14.44 | buZz | which just disabled -all- leds |
| 15:14.56 | nikitis | I did ifup eth0 before. Guess that alias doesn't work |
| 15:15.13 | nikitis | Spelling out ifconfig eth0 up worked |
| 15:15.24 | buZz | that only works if you configure /etc/network/interfaces correctly |
| 15:15.29 | buZz | (the ifup one) |
| 15:15.32 | nikitis | ah |
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| 15:16.28 | nikitis | So ethernet is good, now how do I set ssid and stuff for wlan0? |
| 15:16.33 | nikitis | kde |
| 15:16.41 | nikitis | no network settings I can find |
| 15:17.29 | Enrico_Menotti | nikitis This page: https://wiki.debian.org/WiFi/HowToUse has useful info. I set up Devuan in the same way. |
| 15:18.59 | Enrico_Menotti | I have re-built the kernel for my n900, incorporating the watchdogs. Now it boots properly and is stable. Anyway, I have a couple of issues. |
| 15:19.21 | Enrico_Menotti | 1. There's a delay at boot time (30 seconds) after the rootfs is mounted. |
| 15:19.34 | fsmithred | nikitis, if you're always going to use it in the same place, you could configure /etc/network/interfaces, but if you want a gui wireless manager, wicd is a good choice |
| 15:20.29 | Enrico_Menotti | 2. Without the watchdogs incorporated, i.e. with them in the modules, the system is unstable. Seems modules are not loaded. It may be caused by the delay at point 1. |
| 15:20.47 | Enrico_Menotti | 3. Shutdown now does not work. Poweroff does. |
| 15:23.24 | buZz | ericnoan: re: 3) does shutdown -h "now" work? |
| 15:23.39 | buZz | oops |
| 15:23.43 | buZz | Enrico_Menotti: ^^^ |
| 15:23.51 | buZz | sry ericnoan |
| 15:24.19 | Enrico_Menotti | buZz shutdown now starts, but ends up in a maintenance shell. |
| 15:24.44 | Enrico_Menotti | I will try shutdown -h "now". |
| 15:24.59 | buZz | i think you need -h , for it to do 'halt' |
| 15:25.26 | buZz | oh actually , -h means 'poweroff' |
| 15:25.27 | buZz | lol |
| 15:28.14 | Enrico_Menotti | In Debian shutdown now works just fine... |
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| 15:32.17 | nikitis | Sweet, i'm good |
| 15:32.32 | nikitis | Had to manually run dhclient eth0 |
| 15:32.46 | nikitis | ethernet was up, then I was able to download wicd via apt-get |
| 15:32.50 | nikitis | and that works too |
| 15:33.02 | nikitis | \o/ |
| 15:34.05 | Enrico_Menotti | buZz In Devuan, shutdown now says: "The system is going down to maintenance mode". Why? Should not it halt? |
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| 15:37.56 | buZz | Enrico_Menotti: not sure, i only use 'shutdown -h "now"' when there is no 'poweroff' |
| 15:38.04 | buZz | afaik only -h would shut down |
| 15:38.19 | buZz | but maybe debian just changed the norm to please poetering? :) |
| 15:38.44 | Enrico_Menotti | :) |
| 15:38.47 | buZz | or maybe 'maintenance mode' in debian is just 'poweroff' |
| 15:38.48 | buZz | :P |
| 15:39.56 | fsmithred | in devuan, halt is the same as poweroff. It used to be that way in debian until jessie, but now it shuts down the OS but leaves the power on, just like centos, and I assume, just like RH |
| 15:40.19 | *** join/#devuan unpleased (~unpleased@host5-254-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 15:42.17 | Lydia_K | I cannot think of a sitution in which one would stop the OS but leave the power on. |
| 15:43.06 | Enrico_Menotti | fsmithred So in Debian poweroff turns off the machine, while shutdown now just halts the OS? |
| 15:43.44 | fsmithred | sorry, I don't remember what shutdown -h did in debian. |
| 15:44.30 | Enrico_Menotti | Ok. In any case, I have a delay at boot (30 seconds) between "freeing unused kernel memory" and "systemd-udevd: starting version 215". (In Devuan.) |
| 15:44.31 | fsmithred | 'halt' did not turn off the power. |
| 15:44.50 | buZz | Lydia_K: not all systems are blessed with ATX powersupplies that you -can- even turn off :) |
| 15:44.51 | Leander_ | seriously? now I understand some of my problems before switching to devuan... |
| 15:44.56 | *** join/#devuan Pali (~pali@Maemo/community/contributor/Pali) |
| 15:45.18 | buZz | Leander_: how so? |
| 15:45.27 | Lydia_K | buZz: Ahhhh.. I had forgotten about those days, that is true. |
| 15:45.31 | buZz | Leander_: because of issues you dont have? :D |
| 15:45.36 | Leander_ | I would use halt, and wait for the complete shutdown... to no end |
| 15:45.45 | buZz | halt shuts down |
| 15:45.51 | buZz | shutdown "now" without -h doesnt |
| 15:45.57 | buZz | as the manpage confirms :P |
| 15:46.05 | Leander_ | the manpage of which year? |
| 15:46.09 | buZz | 2017 |
| 15:46.39 | fsmithred | buzz are you saying that 'halt' works the same as 'poweroff' for you in debian? |
| 15:46.52 | buZz | whats a debian |
| 15:46.56 | fsmithred | lol |
| 15:46.57 | buZz | :P |
| 15:47.13 | buZz | fsmithred: i was talking about devuan |
| 15:47.17 | fsmithred | ok |
| 15:47.22 | buZz | \o/ |
| 15:47.34 | Leander_ | yeah because I reread all the manpages at every update since I started using Linux |
| 15:47.54 | Leander_ | I can't believe I missed that change of halt's behaviour |
| 15:47.54 | buZz | cool Leander_ \o , typo-catchers are superwelcome |
| 15:48.36 | buZz | actually its in 2003 manpage aswell |
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| 15:49.07 | Enrico_Menotti | Does anybody have an idea on how to understand what's happening in my system at boot during those 30 seconds I mentioned? |
| 15:49.33 | buZz | Enrico_Menotti: not sure, but my instinct tells me you should build those watchdog modules into the kernel |
| 15:49.47 | Enrico_Menotti | buZz Yes, done that. |
| 15:49.52 | Enrico_Menotti | The delay is still there. |
| 15:49.56 | buZz | oh ok, still the same 30s delay? :( |
| 15:49.57 | buZz | boo |
| 15:50.02 | Enrico_Menotti | (Although the system is stable.) |
| 15:50.08 | buZz | i have debian on n900 , but i didnt notice any delay |
| 15:50.12 | buZz | devuan* |
| 15:50.31 | Enrico_Menotti | The Devuan image built by parazyd ? |
| 15:50.32 | buZz | i used these scripts ; https://github.com/dderby/debian900 |
| 15:50.39 | buZz | no, havent tried that yet |
| 15:50.57 | Enrico_Menotti | Because with that, I have the same delay. (If I'm not wrong.) |
| 15:51.00 | buZz | i rarely like to run premade images :) |
| 15:51.21 | Enrico_Menotti | I have debootstrapped my own image. |
| 15:51.34 | buZz | cool, the scripts i link to also just use debootstrap |
| 15:52.03 | buZz | kernel it uses is https://github.com/pali/linux-n900.git |
| 15:52.08 | buZz | GIT_BRANCH=v4.7-rc4-n900 |
| 15:52.09 | Enrico_Menotti | In any case, dmesg does not show anything during those 30 seconds. Nor the syslog. |
| 15:52.45 | Enrico_Menotti | buZz I used mainline kernel with Pali's rx51_defconfig with also two watchdogs not as modules but built in. |
| 15:53.01 | Enrico_Menotti | (Pali's original defconfig has the watchdogs in the modules.) |
| 15:53.07 | *** join/#devuan devil (~quassel@vmd16322.contabo.host) |
| 15:53.34 | buZz | you could maybe interface to the uart and get more verbose logging? |
| 15:53.48 | Enrico_Menotti | I don't have the hardware... |
| 15:53.55 | buZz | ah hmhm |
| 15:54.03 | Enrico_Menotti | Do you have something? |
| 15:54.14 | buZz | not at home, but at hackerspace |
| 15:54.23 | Enrico_Menotti | hackerspace? |
| 15:54.53 | *** join/#devuan IoFran (~Icedove@189.231.106.86) |
| 15:54.59 | buZz | yeah, like a knittingclub, but with own building and LOADS of hardware and tools :P |
| 15:55.19 | buZz | co-working space , sorta |
| 15:55.21 | Enrico_Menotti | :) |
| 15:55.26 | Enrico_Menotti | Where? |
| 15:55.55 | buZz | worldwide over 1337 of them |
| 15:56.08 | Enrico_Menotti | Ah. Good to know. |
| 15:56.20 | buZz | https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/List_of_Hacker_Spaces |
| 15:56.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | !#devuan dng is https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng the devuan mailing list |
| 15:56.46 | infobot | ...but #devuan dng is already something else... |
| 15:57.45 | Enrico_Menotti | Wow, there's a hackerspace in Trieste! |
| 15:59.00 | Enrico_Menotti | Unfortunately the opening times are uncomfortable for me. |
| 15:59.10 | buZz | Enrico_Menotti: find their irc channel |
| 15:59.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | !dng |
| 15:59.30 | infobot | see dng |
| 15:59.32 | buZz | you might be able to visit some other time if the normal public times are not working |
| 15:59.54 | buZz | our hackerspace is just 'open' on 1 day a week, from 1730 till midnight |
| 15:59.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | infobot: no, #devuan dng is https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng the devuan mailing list |
| 15:59.55 | infobot | okay, DocScrutinizer05 |
| 15:59.57 | buZz | but 24/7 for members |
| 16:00.18 | buZz | what does dng stand for DocScrutinizer05 ? |
| 16:00.25 | buZz | seems useful to know ;) |
| 16:00.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | I had added it when I was sure |
| 16:00.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | ;-) |
| 16:00.50 | buZz | lol, unsure now and overwritten it? :D |
| 16:01.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | I would gave... |
| 16:01.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | Have* |
| 16:01.21 | Enrico_Menotti | buZz I found the site, not the irc channel... |
| 16:01.30 | buZz | link? |
| 16:01.42 | buZz | maybe they arent so good with computers, so dont have irc? :P |
| 16:01.52 | buZz | rofls |
| 16:01.53 | *** join/#devuan Hermit (~hermit@1-8-7.mxk.vla.trex.com.ar) |
| 16:01.56 | _stephen | according to https://devuan.org/os/community DNG=debians is not gnome |
| 16:02.12 | _stephen | err, debian is not gnome |
| 16:02.25 | buZz | Enrico_Menotti: mittelab? |
| 16:02.33 | Enrico_Menotti | Yes, https://www.mittelab.org. |
| 16:02.45 | buZz | http://twitter.com/mittelab |
| 16:02.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | _stephen: that sounds strangely unrelated to devuan |
| 16:03.01 | buZz | Enrico_Menotti: /join #mittelab |
| 16:03.05 | buZz | here on freenode ;) |
| 16:03.21 | Enrico_Menotti | Ok. Where did you find it? Just searching here? |
| 16:03.31 | buZz | Enrico_Menotti: https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/Mittelab , ctrl-f IRC |
| 16:03.32 | buZz | :P |
| 16:03.48 | Enrico_Menotti | :/ |
| 16:04.00 | buZz | dont worry |
| 16:05.09 | Enrico_Menotti | But I see from the list of things they have that I already have many of them at home... :) |
| 16:05.24 | Enrico_Menotti | In any case, it would be worth a visit! |
| 16:06.40 | Enrico_Menotti | I was thinking about this: https://n900.elektranox.org/serial-adapter.html. |
| 16:07.32 | buZz | looks good |
| 16:07.39 | buZz | just a couple of pogopins and some wood :D |
| 16:08.35 | Enrico_Menotti | Yes, there's also this: https://www.uni-oldenburg.de/fileadmin/user_upload/informatik/ag/svs/download/thesis/Reichel_Sebastian.pdf. It's the detailed description of the above. |
| 16:09.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | mr sre |
| 16:10.17 | Enrico_Menotti | If I had the gerber files, I could have my own pcb's made at Wurth online (e.g.) and solder components... |
| 16:10.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://maemo.cloud-7.de/share-service/20130719_004.jpg ;-) |
| 16:11.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://maemo.cloud-7.de/share-service/20130719_002.jpg |
| 16:12.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | 4 bucks at fleabay, alas for F-bus or whatever, not for APE console |
| 16:14.05 | Enrico_Menotti | DocScrutinizer05 Are maybe the gerbers stored somewhere? |
| 16:14.26 | Vall | back |
| 16:14.49 | Vall | buZz: just found that (in the Devuan LXC template page you linked above): lxc.bdev.zfs.root |
| 16:14.51 | Vall | nice! |
| 16:15.02 | Vall | So LXC has special ZFS support? |
| 16:17.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | of that dangerously yellow adapter? I doubt it |
| 16:18.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | for the other wooden one ask sre |
| 16:19.31 | Enrico_Menotti | Ah, I thought they were the same. |
| 16:19.41 | Enrico_Menotti | I will ask. |
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| 17:11.34 | _abc_ | Hi. So far, thanks for the new devuan jessie, put it through paces, seems to work fine. Live edition with add ons from apt-get cli as needed to test everything. Will probably install it to a hdd partition later this week |
| 17:12.08 | _abc_ | So, no problems seen with hardware. All is well. fsmithred ^ |
| 17:12.46 | _abc_ | Is there a faq/howto on how to avoid being "trojaned" by systemd dependent packages when on auto updates? |
| 17:14.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | stay on devuan repos and you're safe, I guess |
| 17:15.24 | _abc_ | Just one thing, not necessarily devuan related: when using the radeon driver with nomodeset (needed to to avoid freeze on wake from sleep to ram) I get a blurry screen. Blurry means there's some sort of unusual filtering going on. Is there some easy ... |
| 17:15.28 | _abc_ | ... setting to handle this? |
| 17:15.38 | gnarface | _abc_: you can use apt pinning to block packages by name mask "systemd*" if you want to be paranoid. that's what I do. probably unnecessary for jessie, but on testing and unstable it will still catch things. |
| 17:15.52 | _abc_ | Of course resolution is lower than with full accel radeon but the blur is not there in another X server (etch) |
| 17:16.19 | gnarface | _abc_: no idea about the radeon driver, but that sounds like something that is not devuan-specific. you might want to ask in their irc channel as this one is still kinda quiet and low on expertise. |
| 17:16.19 | KatolaZ | _abc_: systemd cannot sneak into your install if you use only Devuan repos |
| 17:16.22 | _abc_ | gnarface: interesting. Is there a howto on app pinning? I remember it is strongly frowned on. |
| 17:16.37 | _abc_ | KatolaZ: let's assume I will have to diversify eventually. |
| 17:16.45 | KatolaZ | _abc_: means that you will (should!) not ever find systemd as init there |
| 17:16.48 | nikitis | That reminds me. I need to manually install drivers. I haven't been able to do that since Ubuntu 11 |
| 17:16.54 | gnarface | _abc_: http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/How_to_remove_systemd_from_a_Debian_jessie/sid_installation#Pin_Systemd_Packages |
| 17:16.54 | nikitis | I'm so excited |
| 17:17.03 | _abc_ | thanks |
| 17:17.05 | KatolaZ | _abc_: if you mix repos with Debian or other distros, you can still get systemd |
| 17:17.15 | KatolaZ | unless you pin it, yes |
| 17:17.24 | gnarface | _abc_: pinning can be used to hold certain package versions, but invoked like this it just blocks all packages matching that name mask. |
| 17:17.53 | _abc_ | ok |
| 17:18.07 | _abc_ | Did not know you can pin on deps too? Can you? |
| 17:18.51 | gnarface | uh, to be honest i'm not sure. this is all i've ever used it for besides once freezing an old version of xorg in unstable years ago. |
| 17:19.02 | _abc_ | What has polkit got to do with hibernation? |
| 17:19.12 | gnarface | heh, i dunno, but i don't use either :) |
| 17:19.16 | _abc_ | gnarface: okay, I will look mode. |
| 17:19.27 | _abc_ | polkit has something to do with logins / security iirc |
| 17:19.33 | gnarface | if i had to venture a guess, polkit may help with permissions on device wake-up? |
| 17:19.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | gnarface: let's hope it doesn't eventually catch a "kill-systemd-for-good" package ;-) |
| 17:19.47 | _abc_ | I would think not. Login yes. |
| 17:20.42 | gnarface | DocScrutinizer05: well this obviously has some weaknesses. it also will completely be subverted by someone smart enough to package systemd as 'sysv-init-replacement' |
| 17:21.01 | gnarface | DocScrutinizer05: for the moment i'm hoping it won't come to all-out war though. |
| 17:21.30 | gnarface | really doesnt' want to go back to installing updates by hand-audited source code patch only |
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| 17:36.51 | _abc_ | I think that this channel is highly subversive. In the best possibly way! :) |
| 17:38.56 | _abc_ | https://in.waw.pl/systemd-github-state/systemd-issues.svg keep pasting this to people who worship systemd. It woks... |
| 17:50.16 | Lydia_K | _abc_: Psh, so what? All software has bugs, it's not like it's the core of the system or running as PID1 or anything critical like that! /s |
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| 17:55.18 | _abc_ | Yes but a) you're supposed to bash systemd a little here (this is the place -> (X) and b) some things really *lead* in bug count and proliferation. systemd is just one of them, but it happens to be the one which is a thorn in your eyes (here) |
| 17:55.23 | _abc_ | Lydia_K: ^ |
| 17:56.13 | _abc_ | It is fairly unique in attacking a very deep basic premise of *nix, script based boot and log system. |
| 17:56.28 | _abc_ | And it accordingly pissed of about 3/4 of the planet's cli jockeys. |
| 17:56.48 | _abc_ | It would have done it without the bugs, too, but, with them, it is THE kick target. |
| 17:56.49 | Lydia_K | I think you missed the /s on the end of what I said :) |
| 17:57.17 | gnarface | _abc_: (it was sarcasm, what she said. I caught it.) |
| 17:57.20 | _abc_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:57.53 | _abc_ | And yes I missed the deeper meaning of /s not being used to it like that. |
| 17:58.36 | Lydia_K | I mean, I thought it was pretty dripping with sarcasm without the /s, but I put it there anyway :) |
| 17:58.55 | gnarface | for the most part you won't see anyone around here non-sarcastically promoting evil and closed-source software besides DocScrutinizer05 and hunger |
| 17:58.57 | _abc_ | Yeah I missed that use of it |
| 17:59.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | HUH???? |
| 17:59.37 | gnarface | yea you heard me |
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| 18:01.23 | Lydia_K | ?.? |
| 18:01.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | NFC |
| 18:01.46 | _abc_ | RFID! |
| 18:01.57 | Lydia_K | ECC |
| 18:03.19 | KatolaZ | IETF! |
| 18:03.35 | KatolaZ | gets a mouthful of pop-corn... |
| 18:04.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | gnarface had red-white shrooms |
| 18:04.16 | Lydia_K | UEFI? |
| 18:04.34 | Lydia_K | DocScrutinizer05: flyagerics? |
| 18:05.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | whatever makes them think I'd "promote evil and closed-source software" :-/ |
| 18:06.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | feckin BS |
| 18:08.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | as if I was even capable to utter a single word without sarcasm in it |
| 18:10.46 | Lydia_K | I have no idea how this got here, but I'm so desperate to see some kind of resolution. |
| 18:12.47 | Lydia_K | At this point I assume gnarface was just messing with DocScrutinizer05 |
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| 18:20.52 | _abc_ | Lydia_K: what sort of resolution? |
| 18:23.32 | Lydia_K | To the whole gnarface and DocScrutinizer05 thing! |
| 18:35.15 | Vall | RED ALERT! RED ALERT! |
| 18:35.32 | Vall | GPG sig on ISO downloaded from devuan.org MISMATCH |
| 18:35.32 | Vall | https://pastebin.com/J4tn8Xm9 |
| 18:36.41 | KatolaZ | Vall: see https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170424.101015.535e3ef4.en.html |
| 18:36.41 | gnarface | uh oh |
| 18:36.47 | KatolaZ | there is no NSA attack :) |
| 18:37.02 | Vall | KatolaZ |
| 18:37.03 | Vall | checking |
| 18:37.08 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 18:37.29 | KatolaZ | you should download the new SHASUMS |
| 18:37.37 | KatolaZ | and the new SHASUMS.asc |
| 18:37.43 | KatolaZ | images are untouched |
| 18:37.58 | Lydia_K | #fakenews |
| 18:38.01 | KatolaZ | it was just a mishap on copying |
| 18:38.01 | Lydia_K | NSA is on to us |
| 18:38.13 | KatolaZ | Lydia_K: sssshshhhh! |
| 18:38.15 | Vall | KatolaZ: where is the new SHASUMS.asc? |
| 18:38.21 | Lydia_K | Ohhhh... right... |
| 18:38.27 | KatolaZ | Vall: where you downloaded the previous one... |
| 18:38.31 | Vall | shouldn't it be on the same dir as the ISO on devuan.org? |
| 18:38.36 | Vall | I did download it from there |
| 18:38.40 | KatolaZ | when? |
| 18:38.57 | Vall | half an hour ago, tops |
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| 18:39.15 | KatolaZ | https://files.devuan.org/devuan_jessie_rc/installer-iso/ |
| 18:39.24 | Vall | exactly |
| 18:39.39 | KatolaZ | are you using the DVD amd64 install iso? |
| 18:39.57 | KatolaZ | anyway, look to the following emails |
| 18:40.04 | KatolaZ | the SHASUMS now verify correctly |
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| 18:44.28 | Vall | 1 min |
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| 18:57.13 | _abc_ | Lydia_K: what was that about resolution? Before my neighbor sabotaged the wifi? :) |
| 18:57.59 | Lydia_K | There as no resolution, only questions left hanging |
| 18:59.26 | _abc_ | Unrelated to devuan: how does one set up firewall filters etc to limit ingress DoS where incoming traffic is counted as quota consumption (monthly traffic). I assume there is no way? |
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| 19:00.24 | _abc_ | Billing plans on VPS will quote like 2TB transfer. That's both ways added usually, no? |
| 19:02.27 | Vall | back |
| 19:02.49 | Vall | I will download the SHASUMS.asc again and recheck |
| 19:03.07 | Vall | _abc_: yes, unless stated otherwise |
| 19:03.12 | gnarface | _abc_: ask your ISP |
| 19:03.33 | gnarface | _abc_: a competent colo will have procedures on hand to protect you from this at request |
| 19:03.46 | gnarface | _abc_: (an incompetent one will just wave the billing for that traffic) |
| 19:04.07 | furrywolf | and a cheap one will say "tough shit". |
| 19:04.38 | gnarface | in that case, you can always put a 10 megabit async ethernet card in the box :) |
| 19:04.39 | _abc_ | Speaking of shasums: if one (like me) edits the partition table on the usb stick after dd'ing in the devuan hybrid image, to add a vfat fat32 partition in the free space after devuan, then it is a GOOD IDEA to subsequently sha1sum the new (!) 1st ... |
| 19:04.43 | _abc_ | ... partition and boot sector, to the size of the original devuan image, and store it. Because without this, there will be paranoia at some time. |
| 19:05.26 | _abc_ | gnarface: one assumes one has no control over vps server hardware. I assume one can try to force the gigabit card into 10mbit mode :) |
| 19:05.31 | Centurion_Dan | _abc_: if your nice you reject connections, if you suspect it's a DDoS just drop the connections at the firewall |
| 19:05.43 | _abc_ | I wonder what that does to the other vps shared people on the same box |
| 19:05.58 | gnarface | _abc_: that should also be possible actually, but off the top of my head i only remember how on BSD |
| 19:06.19 | _abc_ | Yes dropping at the fw should probably limit traffic to handshake packets for tcp? But any udp will come in full and be clocked? |
| 19:07.37 | _abc_ | gnarface: ethtool : negotiation off, speed set to 10 |
| 19:07.50 | _abc_ | note iirc modern gigabit hw can go down to 100 but not to 10? |
| 19:07.57 | gnarface | oh, ethtool, yea that makes sense, i'm always forgetting about that one |
| 19:08.15 | gnarface | in BSD it's just a setting in the hostname.devX file |
| 19:08.26 | gnarface | you can set it inline where you set the IP |
| 19:08.30 | gnarface | nice and handy |
| 19:08.38 | _abc_ | BSD with securelevel >= 1 should not let you do anything to the eth iirc |
| 19:08.43 | gnarface | (driver support notwithstanding) |
| 19:08.52 | _abc_ | I mean after boot. |
| 19:08.58 | gnarface | hmm. on a VPS i dunno |
| 19:09.08 | gnarface | on a VPS i wouldn't expect you to be able to change any of this |
| 19:09.26 | gnarface | but i would also expect the host to already be protected |
| 19:09.34 | _abc_ | I think on a bsd vps one could go as far as to offer all users on the box ONE image of read-only installed bsd... no need to consume disk for the os... |
| 19:10.09 | _abc_ | I mean share the ro mounted os entirely :) |
| 19:10.32 | _abc_ | *os disk(s) / slices |
| 19:12.37 | Vall | Folks, specially KatolaZ: the problem continues |
| 19:12.38 | Vall | gpg: BAD signature from "Denis Roio (Jaromil) <jaromil@dyne.org>" |
| 19:13.07 | Vall | This is with the latest SHASUMS.asc I download from that exact address: https://files.devuan.org/devuan_jessie_rc/installer-iso/SHA256SUMS.asc |
| 19:13.19 | Vall | Is Jaromil on? |
| 19:13.32 | Vall | er, jaromil ;-) |
| 19:15.34 | gnarface | hmmmm |
| 19:19.09 | Vall | I'm /msg'ing with KatolaZ off-channel |
| 19:19.31 | Vall | his SHA2SUMS.asc has the same sha256sum as mine |
| 19:19.41 | Vall | ie, we both have the same SHA2SUMS.asc |
| 19:19.50 | Vall | but his checks OK, mine doesn't |
| 19:19.56 | gnarface | ok lemme see what i get |
| 19:20.25 | gnarface | there is a non-zero chance here that you have a legitimate active threat upstream from you inserting malware into your linux images |
| 19:20.31 | gnarface | but most likely it's just a misbehaved proxy or something |
| 19:20.47 | _abc_ | also depends what the d/l was done with |
| 19:21.09 | _abc_ | firef*ck sometimes does unholy things if the mss/mtu are not regular. |
| 19:21.14 | gnarface | yes, if you're using DOS 6.11 "ftp.exe" make sure to take it out of ASCII mode :-p |
| 19:21.24 | Vall | I'm downloading the ISO again on another machine |
| 19:21.26 | Vall | 1 min |
| 19:21.44 | *** join/#devuan Ponchale (~alfonso@167.0.115.250) |
| 19:21.49 | _abc_ | chuckles remembering ms http server coders being told to pad any web page smaller than 512 chars to 512+ to avoid errors when downloading... |
| 19:21.53 | Vall | I've downloaded it with wget, which did not return any errors |
| 19:22.03 | _abc_ | Vall: wget does the right thing. Should be good. |
| 19:22.13 | Vall | checking |
| 19:23.29 | _abc_ | http://www.clintharris.net/2009/ie-512-byte-error-pages-and-wordpress/ internet exploder at it's best. 512 bytes or you don't see anything >:) |
| 19:23.49 | _abc_ | thanks whomever every day for the sanity of open source tools |
| 19:24.08 | _abc_ | Vall: did you also check the length? No padding perhaps? |
| 19:24.16 | Vall | length was exactly right |
| 19:24.20 | Vall | first thing I checked |
| 19:24.20 | _abc_ | ok |
| 19:24.33 | Vall | gimme a few mins |
| 19:24.35 | *** join/#devuan felix__ (~felix@190.64.49.27) |
| 19:24.54 | Vall | download progressing on another machine, on another network, which I'm downloading remotely |
| 19:25.04 | Vall | devuan_jessie_1.0.0-RC_amd64_DVD.iso: OK |
| 19:25.12 | Vall | downloaded and checked |
| 19:25.14 | Vall | it's OK |
| 19:25.24 | _abc_ | Vall: just for laughs, the bad isp, which one is it? |
| 19:25.30 | Vall | so something corrupted the file on the first machine I downloaded it |
| 19:25.50 | Vall | it's HE on Los Angeles |
| 19:25.53 | _abc_ | Which isp/country was the bad one? |
| 19:26.11 | gnarface | oh god HE? they are who Steam uses for the LA cluster aren't they? |
| 19:26.13 | _abc_ | I'm in Europe, don't know anything about HE |
| 19:26.15 | *** join/#devuan felix__ (~felix@190.64.49.27) |
| 19:26.20 | gnarface | they have got bad hardware in their datacenter |
| 19:26.27 | gnarface | i get corrupted save files back from their Steam cloud node all the time |
| 19:26.32 | Vall | it could be my machine, but I do not think so. it's a xeon with ECC |
| 19:26.37 | Vall | sighs |
| 19:26.39 | _abc_ | interesting, gnarface |
| 19:26.39 | gnarface | it's a pain in the ass |
| 19:26.58 | gnarface | Vall: if you re-download it, it's fine the second time? |
| 19:27.18 | *** join/#devuan glorfindel2016 (405c0182@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.92.1.130) |
| 19:27.20 | Vall | gnarface: downloading it again on the first machine right now |
| 19:27.44 | _abc_ | Why are there no simple lists of sha1sum or whatever on the site as is usually done? |
| 19:28.07 | _abc_ | I get: sha1sum: devuan_jessie_1.0.0-RC_i386-live.iso 2a3302aaa3da10d77bedc48f88dfeeb23576fd5c |
| 19:28.14 | _abc_ | Can someone confirm? ... |
| 19:28.39 | _abc_ | Also for god's sake keep the sums on a different server than the files being signed. That is so obvious! |
| 19:29.02 | _abc_ | That is the image I used to test here. |
| 19:29.21 | glorfindel2016 | Is this the correct forum to ask about a bittorrent application for devuan? |
| 19:29.41 | debdog | transmission |
| 19:29.50 | _abc_ | glorfindel2016: torrents work best with systemd :) Ask in #debian :) |
| 19:29.53 | glorfindel2016 | thanks |
| 19:29.57 | gnarface | i like rtorrent |
| 19:30.01 | gnarface | is that bad? |
| 19:30.09 | _abc_ | it's bad you like torrents. |
| 19:30.11 | _abc_ | :) |
| 19:30.20 | _abc_ | Can anyone confirm the sha1sum above? |
| 19:30.23 | glorfindel2016 | how about a vpn service, any that use init? |
| 19:30.35 | gnarface | apt-get install openvpn |
| 19:30.40 | gnarface | all the vpn service i ever needed |
| 19:31.04 | gnarface | (they also do a commercial service if you want that, but the software doesn't require it, you can host it yourself) |
| 19:31.10 | _abc_ | Wait, how do you use the sha256sums.asc file? I think I have an ancient gpg on this machine |
| 19:31.14 | Vall | just downloaded the ISO again on the first machine. and this time it's OK |
| 19:31.19 | Vall | so some ISP oddity |
| 19:31.22 | glorfindel2016 | thnks sorry for the interruption |
| 19:31.57 | Vall | folks, gotta go |
| 19:32.02 | gnarface | Vall: even if they're purposefully inserting malware trying to trojan your installer, they'd be real dumb to do it twice in a row on the same file, since now you're obviously paying attention. stay vigilant |
| 19:32.17 | Vall | Sure think, gnarface. Thanks for the heads up. |
| 19:32.27 | Vall | can't be too careful |
| 19:32.36 | Vall | waves |
| 19:32.41 | gnarface | it's *probably* just some flaky router gear they are too cheap to fix though |
| 19:33.00 | gnarface | like i said, if it's the datacenter i think it is, i get corrupted crap from there all the time. |
| 19:33.18 | gnarface | Valve's support suggests people in Los Angeles use the Dallas download locale instead. (and it always works too, sigh) |
| 19:34.04 | gnarface | i wasn't mad about it until they overwrote my local BattleBlock Theater savegame with a corrupted version from their cloud :( |
| 19:34.56 | gnarface | switching to Dallas fixed the game then, but the latest version had not yet propogated, so i lost all my progress |
| 19:35.09 | gnarface | moral of the story: back up your own shit |
| 19:36.30 | golinux | The solution to DocScrutinizer05 was easy - that's what 'ignore' is for |
| 19:36.37 | _abc_ | mirrors like ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/os/Linux/distr/devuan/devuan_jessie_rc/desktop-live/ seem to have sha256'd each file in the conventional way, this is good |
| 19:37.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | the solution to a stressed mind would possibly be a good cup of tea, instead of telling "the sky is green" |
| 19:38.01 | _abc_ | I think it's nearly impossible for a d/l checksum error to occur in transit. Each packet has it's own checksum, the probability of error is astronomically low. |
| 19:38.30 | _abc_ | And it is beyond me what a router could possibly change on it. |
| 19:38.38 | gnarface | really low, but it's weird how when it happens it seems to cluster around the same network routes, which is why my primary hypothesis is failing network gear |
| 19:39.23 | gnarface | that also at least partially explains intermittent failures |
| 19:39.28 | _abc_ | gnarface: that cannot be it. The network gear passes TBs per day, if say every 10,000th packet is spoiled by it, imagine how many OTHER things will have been jammed by it by the time you notice it |
| 19:39.55 | _abc_ | Misconfiguration is far more likely, as well as inept "wiretapping" or deep packet inspection |
| 19:40.48 | nikitis | I managed to get my ATI drivers installed. So easy with manual compile on devuan! Way to go! |
| 19:41.08 | *** join/#devuan felix__ (~felix@r190-132-212-165.dialup.mobile.ancel.net.uy) |
| 19:41.34 | nikitis | Now don't ever make this distro to where we cannot manually compile our graphic drivers! |
| 19:42.25 | nikitis | cough.. Linux Mint.. Cough.. Fedora.. Cough.. Ubuntu.. Cough. |
| 19:42.45 | *** join/#devuan peetaur (~peter@p200300E10BC005001C824FFFFE7948B7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 19:44.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, fuchsia |
| 19:45.03 | debdog | having a little issue bringing jessie up to date: https://dpaste.de/hQJq/raw |
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| 19:45.33 | _abc_ | nikitis: I have radeon express 200 sleep to ram problems. Does not wake up... any ideas what to poke? It works with readon.modeset=0 but obviously at low res |
| 19:45.46 | debdog | it suggests a workaround but I don't get what that means: |
| 19:45.48 | debdog | mkinitramfs: workaround is MODULES=most, check: |
| 19:45.48 | debdog | grep -r MODULES /etc/initramfs-tools/ |
| 19:46.18 | gnarface | debdog: old bug. i think the workaround is to just change it to MODULES=all until after you're fully updated. then you should be able to change it back and regenerate the intird.img |
| 19:46.38 | gnarface | i ran into this too but it went away |
| 19:47.06 | gnarface | (i think) |
| 19:47.31 | debdog | where would I chage that envvar? |
| 19:47.49 | debdog | tried: MODULES=all aptitude full-upgrade |
| 19:47.58 | debdog | no effect |
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| 19:49.34 | debdog | or could I remove the kernel package (saving the kernel file of course), reboot and re-install it? |
| 19:50.31 | debdog | if it even is an envvar |
| 19:53.13 | gnarface | uh |
| 19:53.20 | debdog | :) |
| 19:53.23 | gnarface | MODULES=all isn't an environment variable sorry |
| 19:53.28 | debdog | ahh |
| 19:53.43 | gnarface | you were supposed to use that grep command to find it in the /etc/initramfs-tools config files so you could manually change it |
| 19:53.57 | gnarface | then you re-run the command that updates the initrd.img |
| 19:54.16 | gnarface | (update-initramfs -u or something like that) |
| 19:54.27 | debdog | ahhh, grepped it and thought it is giving me the available options for MODULES |
| 19:55.02 | gnarface | nah, if you use -ri instead of -r it will also show you line numbers |
| 19:55.07 | *** join/#devuan minnesotags1 (~herbgarci@c-50-137-242-97.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 19:55.16 | gnarface | or wait |
| 19:55.18 | gnarface | no i think its -rn |
| 19:55.31 | debdog | check! |
| 19:55.32 | gnarface | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:55.48 | gnarface | "r" in this context is definitely recursive |
| 19:59.29 | *** join/#devuan felixxx (~felix@190.64.49.27) |
| 19:59.38 | debdog | MODULES=all does not seem to be a valid option, gnarface. MODULES: [ most | netboot | dep | list ] |
| 20:01.14 | debdog | filecontent (snippet): https://dpaste.de/qVD1/raw |
| 20:01.50 | debdog | it has been "most" when the error occured |
| 20:04.20 | debdog | "most" probably is the best option already in this case |
| 20:11.18 | gnarface | hmmm |
| 20:11.20 | gnarface | my bad |
| 20:11.42 | gnarface | MODULES=most is what i was thinking of |
| 20:11.47 | debdog | I am planning to build my own kernel, prolly don't even need to fix that here. would be nice though to have the std kernel as a fallback |
| 20:11.52 | debdog | ok |
| 20:11.57 | gnarface | MODULES=dep was what to change it back to |
| 20:12.07 | debdog | aok |
| 20:12.09 | debdog | *ok |
| 20:12.10 | nikitis | _abc_: I have FireProM4000. No issues here. |
| 20:12.42 | gnarface | debdog: (MODULES=dep is only necessary if you want a minimal initrd.img) |
| 20:12.45 | nikitis | I didn't even have to set radeon.modeset=0 |
| 20:14.58 | nikitis | I take it we do not have a Steam package yet? |
| 20:17.18 | _stephen | there is a steam package |
| 20:17.49 | gnarface | nikitis: it's in non-free |
| 20:17.52 | nikitis | oh |
| 20:18.25 | nikitis | I think i have nonfree apt repositories set. apt-cache search steam does not yeild results |
| 20:18.55 | gnarface | are you sure you have it set? check your /etc/apt/sources.list |
| 20:19.10 | gnarface | (if you just added it, remember to "apt-get update") |
| 20:19.27 | nikitis | yeah, non-free at the end |
| 20:19.30 | nikitis | two URL's |
| 20:19.41 | nikitis | No it's been there, i'll reupdate and check |
| 20:19.58 | gnarface | hmm |
| 20:20.20 | nikitis | nope |
| 20:21.06 | gnarface | can i see your sources.list? |
| 20:21.15 | nikitis | deb http://us.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ jessie-updates main contrib non-free |
| 20:21.22 | gnarface | that's it? |
| 20:21.35 | gnarface | you're missing the main repos |
| 20:21.38 | gnarface | that's just updates |
| 20:21.39 | nikitis | i have more |
| 20:22.05 | nikitis | i have a jessie main non-free contrib |
| 20:22.34 | nikitis | and jessie-security main non-free contrib |
| 20:23.29 | *** join/#devuan franc1s_ (~francis@99.73.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es) |
| 20:23.52 | gnarface | nikitis: here's what i got: http://paste.debian.net/929330/ |
| 20:24.37 | gnarface | worked for me when i installed it, at least |
| 20:24.55 | gnarface | probably worth noting the us mirror never worked for me though |
| 20:25.40 | nikitis | gnarface: you don't even have non-free enabled |
| 20:25.48 | nikitis | But yeah i'm using us. maybe I should use auto |
| 20:26.22 | gnarface | nikitis: oh, sorry, yea i added ' contrib non-free' to the end of each of those lines when i installed steam, but then i removed them. sorry for the confusion. |
| 20:26.34 | *** join/#devuan felixxx (~felix@190.64.49.27) |
| 20:28.50 | nikitis | gnarface: hrm no, I added auto to all URL's, and apt-get update, then apt-cache search steam. Nothing |
| 20:31.25 | nikitis | http://paste.debian.net/929331 |
| 20:32.34 | gnarface | hmmm |
| 20:32.37 | gnarface | wtf |
| 20:32.45 | nikitis | I know right |
| 20:32.55 | gnarface | if would be weird for them to have pulled it |
| 20:33.08 | *** join/#devuan Kruppt (~Kruppt@50.111.200.62) |
| 20:33.23 | gnarface | i always list contrib before non-free |
| 20:33.25 | gnarface | not sure if that matters |
| 20:33.30 | gnarface | it shouldn't, but... |
| 20:33.38 | nikitis | that what was put there, and it should matter as far as I know about apt |
| 20:33.42 | *** join/#devuan greenjeans (~greenjean@172.76.102.39) |
| 20:33.45 | nikitis | shouldn't |
| 20:34.14 | gnarface | you're not using an apt proxy are you? |
| 20:34.26 | gnarface | apt-cacher-ng or something? |
| 20:34.49 | nikitis | Don't think so, how can I check? |
| 20:35.04 | gnarface | you would have had to put a config in place for it |
| 20:35.13 | nikitis | I didn't do any such thing |
| 20:35.17 | gnarface | either at install time, or manually later in /etc/apt/preferences.d or the like |
| 20:35.19 | nikitis | Not sure if the installer would have |
| 20:35.48 | nikitis | just have an avoid-systemd |
| 20:35.49 | gnarface | in expert mode at least, the full installer does ask you if you want to use a proxy and will by default propogate that proxy into the installed config |
| 20:36.02 | nikitis | I think i skipped that question |
| 20:36.04 | gnarface | but you'd still have had to manually type in a proxy url |
| 20:36.08 | nikitis | i did not do that |
| 20:36.17 | nikitis | I have no proxy info to even do that |
| 20:36.21 | gnarface | besides this package hasn't been updated in ages |
| 20:36.29 | gnarface | hrmmmm |
| 20:36.45 | gnarface | can anyone else sanity check this? |
| 20:36.50 | gnarface | missing steam package in jessie? |
| 20:37.54 | nikitis | http://us.mirrors.devuan.org/merged/dists/jessie/non-free/binary-amd64/Packages has no steam package |
| 20:38.26 | debdog | hasn't found a package named steam |
| 20:38.27 | gnarface | hmmm, well in theory it's supposed to just transparently pull any packages that devuan didn't change directly from the debian repos |
| 20:38.43 | gnarface | i see that packages.debian.org still has it listed |
| 20:38.56 | debdog | for jessie? |
| 20:39.04 | gnarface | yea, same version even. so it hasn't been removed at THEIR end. |
| 20:39.11 | gnarface | and it hasn't been changed any time recently |
| 20:39.14 | nikitis | steam is listed in Binary-i386 |
| 20:39.24 | debdog | ah |
| 20:39.24 | gnarface | zoh! |
| 20:39.26 | nikitis | i'm on amd64 |
| 20:39.34 | gnarface | nikitis: that's it, that's what i forgot. you gotta enable multiarch first. |
| 20:39.36 | debdog | gotta enabke multiarch |
| 20:39.36 | nikitis | wouldn't it still pull it? |
| 20:39.45 | nikitis | doh |
| 20:39.47 | gnarface | nope, not without a corresponding :amd64 version |
| 20:40.04 | nikitis | question, if I already compiled amd drivers manually before enabling multiarch |
| 20:40.04 | gnarface | it won't even see i386 stuff unless you enable it |
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| 20:40.09 | nikitis | do I need to recompile? |
| 20:40.25 | gnarface | maybe :-/ |
| 20:40.46 | nikitis | ok, anything to do to multiarch? |
| 20:41.04 | gnarface | ok so first you dpkg --add-architecture i386 |
| 20:41.40 | gnarface | then, if you're building your own drivers, you have to get the i386 dependencies together and make sure this time it builds both the amd64 *and* the i386 version of libgl1-whatever-glx |
| 20:42.04 | gnarface | in theory you don't have to rebuild both halves, i dunno the build process for AMD drivers though so it might still be required |
| 20:42.51 | gnarface | for steam you WILL need both i386 and amd64 opengl and other such runtime libs installed though, because even if you use 64-bit-only games on steam the entire client UI still is all 32-bit only :( |
| 20:43.39 | gnarface | nikitis: (to be clear, after you "dpkg --add-architecture i386" make sure to re-run "apt-get update" again) |
| 20:43.42 | nikitis | yeah i know about steam requirements |
| 20:44.31 | gnarface | _abc_: gpg --keyring /usr/share/keyrings/devuan-keyring.gpg --no-default-keyring --verify SHA256SUMS.asc |
| 20:44.38 | gnarface | _abc_: was this what you were asking for earlier? |
| 20:44.44 | nikitis | Yup, steam is there |
| 20:44.49 | _abc_ | yes, but found it. Thanks |
| 20:44.57 | gnarface | _abc_: (sorry i was too slow) |
| 20:45.02 | _abc_ | np |
| 20:45.52 | gnarface | _abc_: there is a openbsd tool called signify (signify-openbsd in devuan/debian) that makes this process easier, and also inline checks the sums in the file, but the .asc signature here doesn't see to be in the right format for it |
| 20:46.10 | gnarface | doesn't seem* |
| 20:46.55 | _abc_ | that's correct, the asc file is in a strange format |
| 20:47.14 | *** join/#devuan felix__ (~felix@r179-28-188-192.dialup.mobile.ancel.net.uy) |
| 20:47.15 | gnarface | for whatever it's worth to anyone who was paying attention, *I* just checked devuan_jessie_1.0.0-RC_amd64_CD.iso and devuan_jessie_1.0.0-RC_i386_CD.iso and they both verify against the debian-keyring package i got some days/weeks ago. |
| 20:47.16 | _abc_ | linux sha256sum -c seems to work with a different format |
| 20:47.47 | gnarface | so whatever problem Vall had seems to be isolated |
| 20:47.51 | _abc_ | yes |
| 20:48.05 | _abc_ | I also checked my image vs a different mirror's sha256 and it was okay |
| 20:48.19 | _abc_ | This simply means the trojan was injected at the source, of course >;) |
| 20:48.25 | _abc_ | removes tinfoil hat to go to bed |
| 20:49.46 | gnarface | well, i also note that gpg warns me i don't have any locally trusted signatures to certify jaromil's key from the package with either. |
| 20:49.52 | gnarface | is it time for a devuan key-signing party yet? |
| 21:01.04 | *** join/#devuan enoch (~enoch@unaffiliated/enoch) |
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| 21:04.48 | golinux | Haven't read all of this but wanted you to know that I have steam available in my repos. |
| 21:07.25 | MinceR | someone told me steam depends on all sorts of poetteringware |
| 21:08.45 | *** join/#devuan felix__ (~felix@190.64.49.27) |
| 21:10.08 | gnarface | MinceR: it's on a game-by-game basis. they're not all made by evildoers. there IS a real problem with xinput controller mapping support though, due to udev being a dirty evil moving target with lots of shifting internal misbehaviors |
| 21:10.34 | MinceR | ic |
| 21:10.51 | gnarface | MinceR: and steam "in-home streaming" ostensibly "requires" pulseaudio for the audio part to stream, but i've been taught in #alsa some tricks to work around that with bare alsa and the snd-aloop module |
| 21:11.24 | MinceR | ic |
| 21:12.19 | gnarface | the biggest issues if you're not concerned with in-home streaming or controller support right now though are just multiarch complications. it doesn't seem like valve really understood the concept clearly before they made the linux client |
| 21:13.01 | gnarface | there's a lot of weird corner cases where you have to manipulate the LD_LIBRARY_PATH and stuff in ways neither it nor steam were clearly intended to be used just to get games working on ceres |
| 21:14.43 | gnarface | (and it's obvious there is just basic "best practices" concepts simply missing from Valve's corporate development culture here) |
| 21:14.58 | gnarface | a lot of really rookie BASH mistakes |
| 21:18.27 | *** join/#devuan enoch (~enoch@unaffiliated/enoch) |
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| 21:31.43 | nikitis | gnarface: yeah I had to reinstall the amd drivers, but was easy enough, running fine now playing "American Truck Simulator". |
| 21:31.57 | gnarface | nikitis: awesome! |
| 21:32.21 | nikitis | Yup, now gotta test multi-monitor, and Vmware |
| 21:33.42 | RilloBiley | Did I miss the topic about video games? |
| 21:34.57 | RilloBiley | Has anyone ever played Crimson Skies? |
| 21:39.46 | nikitis | No, is it about Russians invading USA? |
| 21:42.58 | gnarface | we were just discussing installing steam on jessie, RilloBiley |
| 21:43.21 | gnarface | (it works but it's i386-only, so you have to enable multiarch on amd64) |
| 21:43.44 | nikitis | And enable multiarch before you compile your nvidia/amd drivers so the 386 binaries are also installed. |
| 21:43.47 | gnarface | (use the package from the repos, don't use the one from valve's site) |
| 21:44.22 | nikitis | Otherwise, you just have to manually compile the drivers a 2nd time |
| 21:44.51 | nikitis | 7 Days to die is hella broken, but I don't blame Devuan for that. I blame the devs of that game |
| 21:45.00 | nikitis | it doesn't work well on any Linux distro |
| 21:45.11 | nikitis | all my other 3d games work great |
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| 21:46.29 | lowee[m] | cant get garrys mod to run any more :g |
| 21:47.08 | lowee[m] | maybe it has to do with me trying to rip pulseaudio out of my system, though it works fine in wine without pulse |
| 21:48.29 | gnarface | lowee[m]: maybe try setting SDL_AUDIODRIVER=alsa |
| 21:48.54 | gnarface | i briefly had a problem with TF2 crashing when it couldn't find pulseaudio |
| 21:49.03 | gnarface | they fixed it, but i had to use that environment variable temporarily |
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| 21:50.15 | lowee[m] | nope, oh well it runs ok in wine :) |
| 21:51.05 | lowee[m] | i hope jackaudio will get some love in devuan too (maybe to replace pulse even, i'd gues supporting pulse will be a pain in the long run) |
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| 22:36.01 | AntoFox | o/ |
| 22:50.10 | Centurion_Dan | lowee[m]: jackaudio doesn't work in devuan?? It should! If it doesn't I'll fix it as I have projects requiring jack... |
| 22:51.23 | *** join/#devuan Besnik_b (~Besnik@athedsl-4369975.home.otenet.gr) |
| 22:52.14 | lowee[m] | it does work, but its kinda hard to use it if you want to use e.g a webrowser at the same time (im pretty sure that some alsa config existst to use jack, but its not there per default it seems) |
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| 23:31.25 | greenjeans | fsmithred : you around? got time for quick question? |
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| 23:39.18 | fsmithred | I've got jackd working in devuan. |
| 23:39.51 | fsmithred | there's no jack plugin for firefox. you have to turn off jack for sound in browser. |
| 23:40.03 | fsmithred | lowee[m], ^^^ |
| 23:40.56 | fsmithred | or maybe use pulseaudio with jack, which I think is a stupid arrangement. |
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| 23:59.30 | Centurion_Dan | there is a jack-client that allows routing alsa clients through jack. |
