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| 01:04.34 | sedrosken | Is Devuan considered stable for general use yet? I don't want to try it out and be surprised when things don't work as they should |
| 01:05.57 | sedrosken | I notice it's still considered a beta, should I bother using it beyond basic testing? |
| 01:08.42 | furrywolf | it generally works fine. gnome is the only thing I've heard of having issues lately... and gnome itself counts as an issue, so no big loss. |
| 01:09.30 | sedrosken | Coolio! I plan on using MATE, myself, so that's good. |
| 01:10.33 | sedrosken | I'm on XFCE4 Arch-OpenRC and I'm getting tired of my update process breaking because I'm running an unsuppoorted config. |
| 01:11.03 | sedrosken | And as much as I like XFCE, I like MATE a bit better. Shame Marco doesn't do quarter tiling, else it'd be perfect in my eyes. |
| 01:11.49 | fsmithred | you may need to do some tweaking for mate |
| 01:13.31 | golinux | Yeah, it's a WIP. |
| 01:15.10 | fsmithred | WIP? |
| 01:15.32 | golinux | Work In Progress |
| 01:15.53 | fsmithred | thanks |
| 01:17.33 | fsmithred | the beta label is mostly because of some details in the installer |
| 01:17.51 | fsmithred | once you get it installed, it's very stable |
| 01:18.02 | fsmithred | like... |
| 01:18.08 | fsmithred | debian without systemd |
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| 01:19.17 | fsmithred | but I've only used xfce or plain old window managers |
| 01:19.52 | fsmithred | oh, and TDE in exegnulinux |
| 01:44.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | !wtf wip |
| 01:45.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | or |
| 01:45.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | !what is wip |
| 01:45.37 | infobot | it has been said that wip is "Work In Progress" |
| 01:48.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | also working: a mere "!wip" - but I forgot the bot is a useless PITA |
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| 01:53.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | sedrosken: there's a sufficient number of reports about devuan working great on servers in productive use. For desktop the impact of systemd-free is more noticeable since a lot of stuff already doesn't work anymore without that cancer. Notorious troublemakers: most desktop environments and network managers and udev and related stuff |
| 01:54.38 | sedrosken | Oh don't I know it... getting proper power management in XFCE4 under openrc is a major pain |
| 01:54.58 | sedrosken | and since this is a thinkpad most of the "standard" ways don't work properly |
| 01:55.15 | sedrosken | xbacklight works fine on my cloudbook, but does absolutely nothing on here |
| 01:56.11 | sedrosken | I may just try to find a command line tool to control brightness on here and then just use a WM with a panel |
| 01:56.27 | sedrosken | IceWM is older than the hills but it works just dandy on my cloudbook |
| 01:56.45 | sedrosken | unfortunately it doesn't do quarter tiling very easily |
| 02:07.33 | Centurion_Dan | sedrosken: I think thinkpads have a special kernel module and package to get the interfaces set up.... of course I could be way off because I've never had one... |
| 02:07.56 | sedrosken | I know I'm certainly not buying one again. Not worth the hassle. |
| 02:08.09 | sedrosken | Especially as the quality seems to get worse and worse. |
| 02:09.06 | sedrosken | I'm actually afraid to use my T450 like a real laptop, instead I have it tethered to a monitor and usb hub. I'm much more comfortable using my Cloudbook out in the world. |
| 02:09.41 | sedrosken | My cloudbook has its share of problems as well, dont get me wrong |
| 02:10.00 | sedrosken | I have to pass certain parameters to the kernel to so much as boot. |
| 02:10.32 | sedrosken | edd=off, noapic, modprobe.blacklist=pinctrl_cherryview |
| 02:11.17 | sedrosken | with edd on it hangs, with apic on it kernel panics, and without that module blacklisted xorg freezes every few hours and is in general unstable, and i dont have proper power management |
| 02:11.52 | sedrosken | but at least it responds to standard system calls in regards to power control |
| 02:14.27 | sedrosken | oh, and I have to use an LTS kernel or it'll sometimes hang while loading the initial ram filesystem\ |
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| 08:08.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | freaking $!!#@?&&!!! trying to dual-boot install linux on a tablet (Dual core Intel Core m5-6Y54) with UEFI and Win10. A nightmare. Any hints welcome |
| 08:09.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | particularly since I can't tell which I hate more and know less: windows10 or UEFI |
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| 08:28.54 | zdzichu | what's the problem? the same sheningans recently described on LWN, with TPM state being modified by grub? |
| 08:29.50 | zdzichu | https://npmccallum.gitlab.io/post/our-bootloader-problem/ |
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| 12:13.36 | nullmark | I try to install devuan on a very old laptop via netboot. but the current netboot images are to big (it has only 256mb of ram). Are there any smaller images available? Or could i build some? |
| 12:13.55 | nullmark | It should be somehow possible, the images from the alpha where much smaller |
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| 12:18.43 | jaromil | nullmark: try the devuan minimal live |
| 12:19.10 | jaromil | https://git.devuan.org/KatolaZ/devuan-live-minimal |
| 12:19.22 | jaromil | requires 64mb to run but has no graphical environment |
| 12:19.52 | KatolaZ | and in theory could be "installed" though the installation is experimental atm |
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| 12:40.02 | nullmark | I could probably use deboostrap from it? |
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| 12:40.56 | nullmark | And thank you, quite awesome :) |
| 12:45.22 | KatolaZ | nullmark: no need |
| 12:45.35 | KatolaZ | you can use refractainstaller to replicate the system on a hd |
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| 12:46.41 | nullmark | Ah, nice. I will try that :) |
| 12:46.44 | nullmark | Thank you |
| 12:47.01 | KatolaZ | minimal documentation is to be found at http://kalos.mine.nu/ |
| 12:47.04 | nullmark | I guess its a tool from the Refracta distribution? |
| 12:47.10 | KatolaZ | yep |
| 12:47.18 | KatolaZ | that version is still using tools from refracta |
| 12:47.28 | KatolaZ | the next one will be based on the new Devuan SDK |
| 12:48.13 | nullmark | I will have an eye on that, small distributions always come in handy :) |
| 12:48.22 | KatolaZ | it's pretty minimal but useful ;) |
| 12:48.25 | KatolaZ | at least to me :D |
| 12:49.10 | KatolaZ | nullmark: BTW, any feedback will be welcome |
| 12:49.44 | nullmark | I will try it this weekend, if i forget ask me monday :) |
| 12:50.07 | KatolaZ | no pressure |
| 12:50.21 | KatolaZ | hacking is about having fun |
| 12:51.11 | nullmark | True :) |
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| 14:11.23 | AntoFox | o/ |
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| 14:48.01 | fsmithred | nullmark, 256MB should be more than enough to run the installer from any of the isos. It's not enough to run a full desktop comfortably, so you would be better off just installing without the desktop and add a window manager afterward. |
| 14:48.33 | fsmithred | KatolaZ's mini live would be a faster install, though. |
| 14:52.40 | nullmark | fsmithred: Well, the installer will probably run fine. But i try a netboot. The iso is alone bigger than my available memory. That wont work :) |
| 14:53.52 | fsmithred | that doesn't make sense |
| 14:54.01 | fsmithred | the whole iso does not need to go into memory |
| 14:54.41 | fsmithred | you just need enough to run the installer |
| 14:56.12 | KatolaZ | nullmark: the minimal like requires only 64 MB of ram to boot |
| 14:56.21 | KatolaZ | you don't need more than that |
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| 15:05.18 | nullmark | fsmithred: I dont know of any other way to boot a iso over network. The image is loaded into ram and then bootet. |
| 15:06.04 | fsmithred | oh, you can't put the iso on a CD or usb flash drive? |
| 15:06.30 | nullmark | Nope |
| 15:06.50 | fsmithred | oh, that makes things difficult |
| 15:07.28 | nullmark | The machine cant boot of usb (other than usb floppy), and has no drive. I have a dock that can be fittet with a drive, but that has a proprietary connector and i dont have one. |
| 15:08.01 | fsmithred | can you pull the hard drive out and connect it to another machine? |
| 15:08.10 | nullmark | likes old, weird laptops |
| 15:08.18 | fsmithred | yeah, I get it |
| 15:08.44 | fsmithred | I helped someone install refracta on an old PIII laptop. |
| 15:08.53 | nullmark | That would work, but i think KatolaZ image should work too. I need a small image anyway. |
| 15:09.01 | fsmithred | we were able to boot from usb, because he had installed plop bootloader on the hard drive |
| 15:09.13 | nullmark | Oh, thats a nice idea too |
| 15:09.48 | fsmithred | yeah, unfortunately, I let grub install and blew away his nice bootloader |
| 15:10.04 | fsmithred | don't do that |
| 15:10.47 | nullmark | I guess one could boot plop via network |
| 15:10.48 | KatolaZ | nullmark: I am currently working also on a micro live image |
| 15:10.58 | KatolaZ | which would fit in half the space of the current minimal |
| 15:11.08 | nullmark | That would be awesome :) |
| 15:11.08 | KatolaZ | and still require 64MB to boot |
| 15:11.12 | telst4r | I usually do a tftp boot or -netinstall booted over grub |
| 15:11.38 | KatolaZ | yep, but I haven't had much time to work on it lately |
| 15:11.50 | KatolaZ | it will become real, for sure |
| 15:11.59 | KatolaZ | it's just a matter of time :) |
| 15:12.06 | fsmithred | the mini iso is isohybrid, so you could dd it to a usb |
| 15:12.07 | nullmark | *g* |
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| 15:13.09 | nullmark | I have no idea how such images are made for devuan (or debian). Is there some kind of howto? |
| 15:13.33 | fsmithred | the mini was made with a modified version of refractasnapshot |
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| 15:13.43 | fsmithred | the official isos... I'm not sure how those are made. |
| 15:13.43 | parazyd | fwiw there is live-sdk |
| 15:13.50 | parazyd | https://git.devuan.org/sdk/live-sdk |
| 15:14.14 | fsmithred | that's ready for mere mortals to try? |
| 15:14.39 | parazyd | sure |
| 15:14.50 | parazyd | all of the sdks are |
| 15:14.58 | fsmithred | cool, I'm reading now |
| 15:15.02 | fsmithred | will try it soon |
| 15:15.11 | parazyd | ping me if you need help with anything |
| 15:15.59 | fsmithred | is there a way to make a custom package list? |
| 15:16.49 | parazyd | yeah see the config file |
| 15:17.02 | parazyd | if you only need packages you can edit there, otherwise i suggest making a blend |
| 15:17.07 | jaromil | wasn't there a neat documentation page? |
| 15:17.16 | parazyd | only for libdevuansdk |
| 15:17.24 | parazyd | that's more for devs than users |
| 15:17.30 | jaromil | ack nvm. i'll be going through your work more next week |
| 15:17.42 | parazyd | oh i almost forgot |
| 15:17.44 | parazyd | 4 |
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| 15:18.26 | fsmithred | add to the extra_packages line, or will it take multiple lines? |
| 15:18.39 | parazyd | it's an array |
| 15:18.44 | fsmithred | cool |
| 15:18.52 | parazyd | so you can add more of "extra_packages+=(foo bar" |
| 15:18.55 | fsmithred | looks like a really small image |
| 15:19.08 | parazyd | about 200mb-ish |
| 15:19.28 | fsmithred | just the base system, or does it include standard system utilities? |
| 15:19.56 | parazyd | one sec |
| 15:20.01 | fsmithred | ok |
| 15:20.35 | parazyd | here's a sensible-default package list: https://git.devuan.org/sdk/libdevuansdk/blob/master/config |
| 15:20.47 | parazyd | and then you have the extras |
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| 15:22.56 | fsmithred | thanks |
| 15:25.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | zdzichu: **systemd-boot.** **HEADDESK** _facepalm_ |
| 15:26.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | zdzichu: otherwise to the point, yes |
| 15:28.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | the real root problem is: I never used UEFI so far, it's a stinking monster pile of elephant shit |
| 15:29.06 | parazyd | DocScrutinizer05: i removed it from my laptop :D |
| 15:29.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | all my systems so far had an option to disable UEFI, they also had no preinstalled windows which I planned to keep, and all had a optival drive to boot from (though this is the least problem with matebook, since it can boot from externally attaches USB devices) |
| 15:30.10 | muep | proprietary firmware doing whatever it pleases and then loading an OS from first sector of hard disk is better than proprietary firmware doing whatever it pleases and then loading an OS from a file on vfat? |
| 15:31.31 | muep | in both cases, the proprietary firmware can usually also set itself up to run alongside the OS that it has booted |
| 15:32.32 | zdzichu | as I understand, shim should be able to boot kernel directly, without systemd-boot middleman |
| 15:33.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | the screaming irony: it seems the matebook boots OS from plugged in USB memstick without even holding a key or changing a single setting in BIOS. Just installing linux internally as dualboot is almost a mission inpossible |
| 15:34.14 | muep | I'd guess the shim bootloader can load any other UEFI bootloader or a kernel that has been set up to also be directly UEFI bootable |
| 15:34.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | muses about runing linux in a VM under win10 |
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| 15:36.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | still a PITA to have a windoof running (and snooping) as wraper around linux all the time, but at least all the hw would still be supported optimally, even down to the fingerprint reader. And no nightmare with UEFI and dualboot |
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| 15:38.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | is there still loadin? |
| 15:38.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | loadlin, sorry |
| 15:39.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | MEH! >>loadlin is a Linux boot loader that runs under DOS or Microsoft Windows ***(95, 98 or Me only)***. It allows the Linux system to load and replace the running DOS/Windows without altering existing DOS/Windows system files.<< https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loadlin |
| 15:41.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | wait, wasn't there new Linux support under windows now? |
| 15:42.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | prolly not to the point where a kexec would work, eh? |
| 15:44.39 | parazyd | no you just had bash iirc |
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| 15:50.17 | KatolaZ | DocScrutinizer05: you can always use cygwin... |
| 15:50.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | not an option |
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| 15:50.45 | parazyd | what about qubes? |
| 15:51.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | no idea |
| 15:51.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | isn't that an OS? |
| 15:51.12 | parazyd | try that |
| 15:51.34 | MinceR | qubes is infected with cancerd |
| 15:51.47 | parazyd | jebiga |
| 15:52.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | the problem is NOT to install linux, the problem is to not nuking win10 while installing whatever primary better OS I'd use on that tablet |
| 15:53.42 | KatolaZ | ah ok |
| 15:54.07 | KatolaZ | I normally just wipe windows out, since 1999 |
| 15:54.09 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 15:54.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | that shit tables cost 1k, I wouldn't want to brick it |
| 15:54.30 | KatolaZ | DocScrutinizer05: ? |
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| 15:54.44 | KatolaZ | you don't need to keep windows |
| 15:54.55 | KatolaZ | even if the machine uses UEFI, AFAIK |
| 15:55.36 | fsmithred | pretty sure loadlin just reboots your compuer into linux |
| 15:55.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't _need_ to, but I _want_ to, since nobody can guarantee that every peripjeral in that tablet will just work under whatever linux distro |
| 15:55.51 | fsmithred | DocScrutinizer05, have you read this? http://www.rodsbooks.com/efi-bootloaders/ |
| 15:57.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | I've read http://djinnsour.com/2016/06/04/huawei-matebook-day-4-testing-xubuntu-16-04/ and http://askubuntu.com/questions/666631/how-can-i-dual-boot-windows-10-and-ubuntu-on-a-uefi-hp-notebook |
| 15:57.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | read that and weep |
| 15:58.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | particularly >>Step 4: Install Ubuntu first<< in the latter, which is exactly what I seem to not be allowed to do |
| 15:59.46 | fsmithred | rodsbooks will give you the background information to install, maybe without nuking anything else |
| 16:00.03 | fsmithred | but good that you have info specific to your hardware, because uefi is not uefi |
| 16:00.16 | fsmithred | it's whatever the fsck the manufacturer decides to do |
| 16:03.53 | fsmithred | what happens when you try to install? |
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| 16:05.27 | fsmithred | djinnsour does not know how to measure a display |
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| 16:08.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | alas this isn't for my hardware, it's for HP |
| 16:08.58 | fsmithred | oh, HP laptops can be a problem with uefi |
| 16:09.20 | fsmithred | edbarx posted his experience on dev1galaxy |
| 16:09.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | HP Pavilion Touchsmart notebook |
| 16:09.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | mine is Huawei Matebook M5 |
| 16:10.04 | fsmithred | his was probook |
| 16:10.18 | fsmithred | https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=15 |
| 16:11.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | a lot of the info from that HP Pavilion Touchsmart notebook askubuntu is generic though |
| 16:11.27 | fsmithred | cat you boot install media or live media on it? |
| 16:11.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | or rather: about windows and generic UEFI issues |
| 16:11.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 16:12.07 | fsmithred | and there is free space (unpartitioned) on the hard drive? |
| 16:12.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | see http://djinnsour.com/2016/06/04/huawei-matebook-day-4-testing-xubuntu-16-04/ - he did exactly that, without any issue as I read it |
| 16:12.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | no |
| 16:12.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | of course not, and I have no win10 install disk or keys |
| 16:13.20 | fsmithred | I don't know if it's changed, but you used to be able to boot into windows, run the partitioner, and shrink the windows partition |
| 16:13.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | (a killer PITA in itself, WTF?!) |
| 16:13.50 | fsmithred | no, it's pretty easy |
| 16:14.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, the instructions above tell you can do this |
| 16:14.05 | fsmithred | at least it was in vista and 7 |
| 16:14.40 | fsmithred | then boot into linux, make a linux partition and install the system |
| 16:14.49 | fsmithred | then you get a choice of installing bootloader or not |
| 16:15.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | RMB in "system" on 'computer' or whatever, menu item "shrink disk" - ROTFL |
| 16:15.07 | fsmithred | if you do, it takes over the boot. I have not done uefi install with windows installed. All linux here. |
| 16:15.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | when I install GRUB, windows is fucked |
| 16:15.49 | fsmithred | maybe |
| 16:15.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | not meybe, definitely |
| 16:16.04 | fsmithred | you could boot linux from the windows bootloader |
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| 16:16.18 | fsmithred | something with bcedit or something like that |
| 16:16.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | that sounds like a plan |
| 16:16.34 | fsmithred | hang on |
| 16:19.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | (win7) that would be almost bearable, I got a 7 ultimate on the one dedicated win PC I need for the inevitable occasional wontdow task |
| 16:20.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | that box is named LosePC |
| 16:20.09 | fsmithred | bcdedit |
| 16:20.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | lemme try |
| 16:21.11 | fsmithred | http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=131368&p=635947&hilit=bcdedit&sid=3ae3fd7d7b9835e2c921b338789954da#p635947 |
| 16:21.23 | fsmithred | bcdedit /set "{bootmgr}" path "\EFI\debian\grub64.efi" |
| 16:21.43 | fsmithred | for example ^^^ |
| 16:22.10 | fsmithred | uh, I see a problem with that method |
| 16:22.38 | fsmithred | instructing windows to use the linux efi bootloader requires a linux efi bootloader |
| 16:22.49 | fsmithred | and if you install grub, it takes over the boot |
| 16:24.49 | fsmithred | DocScrutinizer05, two more ideas... |
| 16:25.13 | parazyd | lol |
| 16:25.15 | fsmithred | 1. don't install bootloader, but put one on usb to boot the linux partition on hard disk |
| 16:25.15 | parazyd | http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1702.2/05171.html |
| 16:25.29 | fsmithred | 2. just run a live-usb |
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| 16:26.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | \o/ bcdedit exists |
| 16:27.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | fsmithred: those two ideas are both not what I want, I'd always need an adapter cable and USB memstick to boot the system |
| 16:28.34 | fsmithred | maybe make a dd backup of the hard drive before you do anything |
| 16:29.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway, thanks for now. This is a low prio project that needs to wait a few more hours or days |
| 16:29.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | I kept notices and will come back to you eventually |
| 16:29.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
| 16:29.41 | fsmithred | lol, I've been working on a uefi live-installer since June, and I'm deliberately being slow about it |
| 16:30.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway the matebook itself is excellent hw |
| 16:30.47 | fsmithred | cool |
| 16:30.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | now if only it had an excellent OS |
| 16:30.54 | fsmithred | you running xubuntu or devuan? |
| 16:31.01 | fsmithred | ok, you answered |
| 16:31.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | win10 |
| 16:31.21 | fsmithred | oh, you didn't do any linux on that? |
| 16:31.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | not yet, this is what all the fuzz above was all avout |
| 16:31.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | this device is 48h old |
| 16:32.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | and also 48h since I first touched win10 in my life |
| 16:32.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's not as bad as I expected, but still absolutely unbearable |
| 16:32.53 | fsmithred | we need the names of all individuals with whom you've had contact since touching 10 |
| 16:33.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's simple, I send you a tarball of my IRC logs |
| 16:33.23 | fsmithred | lol |
| 16:33.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | o/ |
| 16:33.37 | fsmithred | damn, that's a lot of people to quarantine |
| 16:33.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | dinner |
| 16:33.46 | fsmithred | enjoy |
| 16:34.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, I feel like I first should have a looong shower ;-) |
| 16:34.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | the decontamination type of shower |
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| 22:23.44 | AlexLikeRock | hi guys |
| 22:23.51 | AlexLikeRock | i need help |
| 22:23.59 | AlexLikeRock | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:24.07 | AlexLikeRock | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:24.10 | AlexLikeRock | <PROTECTED> |
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| 22:24.28 | AlexLikeRock | i cant not WRITE |
| 22:25.28 | AlexLikeRock | and externa HDD not mount ( ntfs ) |
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| 22:43.00 | AlexLikeRock | what its difference of FUSE and AFUSE ? |
| 22:43.10 | AlexLikeRock | need install both ? |
| 22:43.16 | AlexLikeRock | <PROTECTED> |
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