| 00:22.31 | *** join/#devuan DeFender1031 (~DeFender1@dsl217-132-62-187.bb.netvision.net.il) |
| 00:24.48 | DeFender1031 | Hi all. Another problem cropped up. I seem to be unable to get sound out of firefox. Flash plugin produces sound but not firefox itself (HTML5, for example). Of note: removed pulseaudio, using OSS, configured alsa to output to OSS per http://insanecoding.blogspot.com/2009/05/perfect-sound-with-oss-version-4.html Every other program seems to produce sound fine aside from firefox. Anyone have any ideas? |
| 00:26.06 | furrywolf | firefox lacks any ability to configure its audio output, and thus is often broken... but it usually works with plain alsa setups. |
| 00:26.36 | DeFender1031 | seems strange then that it's not working via OSS's alsa wrappers. |
| 00:27.52 | furrywolf | I've wanted to send firefox's audio to a different audio device, and got annoyed it lacked such a basic feature. |
| 00:28.32 | DeFender1031 | forget that though, it doesn't even seems to be respecting ALSA's configuration for that |
| 00:28.48 | DeFender1031 | like, okay, you output to whatever ALSA is doing, i get that |
| 00:29.05 | DeFender1031 | but it seems to not want to do anything but vanilla alsa with default configuration |
| 00:29.46 | furrywolf | vanilla alsa is the only thing I've ever had make working sound in general, not just firefox. at least you got rid of pulse. that fixes most problems. |
| 00:29.57 | furrywolf | get rid of flash too... or at least try disabling the flash plugin. |
| 00:35.39 | golinux | DeFender1031: FYI, this on the horizon . . . http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=130028 |
| 00:37.12 | furrywolf | seriously? I'd rather have no audio in my browser than use pulse. |
| 00:37.32 | furrywolf | it seems like it's getting time to ditch firefox. |
| 00:38.38 | furrywolf | extension signing is some of the worst abuse of users in a while. |
| 00:45.31 | DeFender1031 | furrywolf, the article I linked has helped me many times throughout the years. |
| 00:45.55 | DeFender1031 | golinux, that's... not better. |
| 00:48.32 | golinux | No. It really sucks . . . |
| 00:49.27 | golinux | But it will be here sooner than we think. |
| 00:50.37 | DeFender1031 | so... pale moon anybody? |
| 00:52.48 | *** join/#devuan Nach (~Nach@bzq-109-66-177-242.red.bezeqint.net) |
| 00:54.58 | DeFender1031 | golinux, how soon? |
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| 00:56.09 | golinux | Dunno. I don't follow it that closely. |
| 00:58.44 | MinceR | already switched to pale moon |
| 01:00.08 | Nach | Would be nice if Pale Moon was a Devuan package, and we didn't need to install it from some other repo |
| 01:00.27 | MinceR | indeed |
| 01:00.56 | DeFender1031 | is installing it now... |
| 01:01.06 | DeFender1031 | wonders if its sound will work any better. |
| 01:01.40 | DeFender1031 | Nach, likely not going to happen unless debian adds it. |
| 01:01.58 | MinceR | at least it's pre-australis ui is less bug-ridden than firefox's |
| 01:02.08 | MinceR | for example, it can tell the difference between enter and left-click |
| 01:02.09 | Nach | DeFender1031: I don't have sound in Pale Moon either |
| 01:02.19 | golinux | Nach: I'm pretty sure you can get a pkg from the MX14 repos. https://mxlinux.org/community-repo |
| 01:02.44 | golinux | Steve Pusser does excellent work. |
| 01:03.44 | golinux | Nach: Is your sound muted? Check in aslamixer |
| 01:04.26 | Nach | golinux: I don't use alsa |
| 01:04.50 | golinux | Could it maybe affect oss? |
| 01:05.18 | golinux | I've never used oss. Always alsa |
| 01:07.01 | golinux | Hmmm . . . looks like botbot isn't logging atm |
| 01:08.32 | DeFender1031 | golinux, Nach has pretty much the same sound setup that I described. |
| 01:08.56 | DeFender1031 | (OSS with ALSA configured to wrap there) |
| 01:14.15 | *** join/#devuan chillfan (~chillfan@193.180.174.72) |
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| 01:53.52 | Digitteknohippie | starts trying to find his way around the oncoming lennartwarised firefox, looks at palemoon's site, sees cagey wording that avoids saying it's Free Software, asks on #palemoon why, gets redirected to https://github.com/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon/blob/master/LICENSE |
| 01:55.24 | Digitteknohippie | looks instead to https://www.gnu.org/software/gnuzilla/ for hope |
| 01:55.33 | Nach | Palemoon is MPL v2.0 licensed |
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| 02:02.37 | chillfan | tbh i'm not convinced they understand the purpose or philosophy of free software, rather they see it as "open source" freeware |
| 02:04.05 | chillfan | that's the idea i get from them anyway, on the other hand they are strong on choice and anti DRM |
| 02:04.38 | Digitteknohippie | checks https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#MPL-2.0 then as advised looks for incompatibility clauses, and does see declaration in first line of https://www.palemoon.org/licensing.shtml "The Pale Moon browser is open source and free software." where the "frees software" links to "http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html" |
| 02:04.51 | Digitteknohippie | still unconvinced proceeds to read through https://www.palemoon.org/redist.shtml |
| 02:05.12 | chillfan | the only thing to be aware of is their branding really |
| 02:06.00 | chillfan | which you need their express permission to distribute |
| 02:07.27 | Digitteknohippie | firs paragraph there is unencouraging. phrases like "the increasing number of rogue/altered copies and people taking advantage of the free availability of the browser to monetize upon, which is against Pale Moon's principles of free software". "monetizing" free software's ok. taking people's freedom is not. they seem to be trying to run with the wrong understanding of the free in free software. |
| 02:09.06 | chillfan | indeed, these are mostly windows users mind you |
| 02:11.47 | DeFender1031 | Digitteknohippie, i'm curious how you personally define the difference between "open source freeware" and "free software"? |
| 02:17.59 | furrywolf | "2016-12-15 15:02:24 PST ALSA support is dropped from Firefox 52 onward." |
| 02:18.04 | furrywolf | so looks like it's time to find another browser. |
| 02:18.25 | chillfan | well I threw that phrase out there, I guess you mean me. "open source freeware" is probably a bad term for it, it's just that the information on their site doesn't seem to understand very well the idea of free software, it seems to be confused with "gratis" |
| 02:20.12 | chillfan | I've spoken to them before in their channel, they actually have a decent attitude. I had the idea that they were anti-drm and pro free software, but was corrected. Their values seem to be about choice rather than anything like that. |
| 02:21.04 | Nach | chillfan: "free software" seems to be confused about English, and confuses inanimate objects with people |
| 02:21.16 | chillfan | but seem to be not a fan of fsfites for their own reasons I guess |
| 02:23.04 | chillfan | Nach: could you elaborate? I think I've missed your point |
| 02:23.30 | Nach | chillfan: "free eraser" means the eraser is at no-cost or that the eraser does not live in a cage and can eat its own chalk? |
| 02:24.06 | MinceR | lol |
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| 02:25.24 | Nach | The whole "free software foundation" is about coopting English and using non-applicable definitions for everything |
| 02:25.44 | chillfan | I'd guess the former, you're right though it's not self explanatory to the uninformed |
| 02:25.56 | Nach | software is not a person |
| 02:26.06 | Nach | it is not an animal either |
| 02:26.14 | Nach | therefore, if it's free, it's at no cost |
| 02:27.36 | DeFender1031 | chillfan, yes, sorry, I did mean you. |
| 02:28.54 | furrywolf | what are good non-mozilla non-google browsers? I don't care if most sites don't work. Ebay needs to work. Ebay's javascript is crap and doesn't work in most browsers. |
| 02:29.29 | chillfan | well palemoon is working okay for me, with firefox "compatibility mode" turned off |
| 02:29.35 | Nach | Beware of Ebay now trying to steal your passwords to other websites by overlaying 3rd party logins |
| 02:30.11 | DeFender1031 | and between chillfan and Nach I guess I still don't quite understand what "free" is supposed to mean when used in this context. |
| 02:30.28 | furrywolf | and what are the chances of a pulseaudio-free devuan, with everything rebuilt not to use it? |
| 02:30.37 | Nach | DeFender1031: according to non-RMS-ized English, "free software" would mean it does not cost money |
| 02:30.57 | DeFender1031 | Nach, i was asking about RMSized |
| 02:31.12 | furrywolf | Nach: that doesn't sound like something ebay themselves would do. sure you don't have some crapware installed, or the attack is actually from another site? |
| 02:31.15 | Nach | DeFender1031: In RMSized English the software is prancing free in the wild without a cage |
| 02:31.30 | DeFender1031 | furrywolf, that's be wonderful, as pulseaudio is basically the sound equivalent of systemd (though it predated it by quite a bit). |
| 02:31.51 | Nach | furrywolf: I've seen it a few times served from https://ebay.com/ |
| 02:31.55 | DeFender1031 | Nach, I understand that that's what you're saying. My question is what that means in practice. |
| 02:32.01 | furrywolf | Nach: what, exactly, have you seen? |
| 02:32.04 | Nach | DeFender1031: it depends who you asked |
| 02:32.22 | furrywolf | ebay is a very, very large corporation. trying to steal 3rd party site logins is not their style. |
| 02:32.22 | Nach | furrywolf: a pop up to pay, on the same page, asking for the credentials to a payment website |
| 02:32.53 | furrywolf | you could be seeing an attack through an ad network they use. |
| 02:32.59 | DeFender1031 | it's not an attack |
| 02:33.05 | chillfan | There have been some known malware issues on ebay, and cross site scripting attacks in the past |
| 02:33.14 | Nach | Well, I normally never see ads anywhere |
| 02:33.14 | DeFender1031 | they're just using an insecure method of sticking a third-party iframe into their page |
| 02:33.46 | DeFender1031 | (which of course doesn't make it easy for the user to verify the iframe's source or legitimacy) |
| 02:33.46 | furrywolf | has been using ebay for going on two decades, and has never had ebay ask for a 3rd party login |
| 02:34.04 | Nach | and JS on ebay doesn't seem to work right either. Pressing the tracking info button on something I purchased seems to work maybe 30% of the time, no clue why |
| 02:34.04 | chillfan | but you have to be aware that any site could potentially do that, not just ebay, it's just cause for care |
| 02:34.10 | Nach | tested FF and Chrome, just doesn't work |
| 02:34.29 | DeFender1031 | can we please get back to bashing the creators of systemd and pulseaudio? |
| 02:34.32 | DeFender1031 | :P |
| 02:34.39 | Nach | chillfan: oh I know any site could do that, it's just ebay was mentioned, and I saw them start doing this just recently |
| 02:35.02 | Nach | DeFender1031: some people a while back were talking about hiring a hit against LP |
| 02:35.06 | furrywolf | Nach: yes, as I said, ebay's javascript is crap. |
| 02:35.17 | Nach | DeFender1031: I don't know if they were joking or serious |
| 02:35.19 | DeFender1031 | Nach, way to kill a fun conversation. |
| 02:35.27 | DeFender1031 | DAMMIT! That pun was NOT intended! |
| 02:36.01 | chillfan | yeah I get that, I just reckon that ebay is "probably" not being evil on purpose |
| 02:36.06 | DeFender1031 | Nach, I wouldn't advocating killing someone over creating crappy software |
| 02:36.27 | DeFender1031 | chillfan, they're not. They're just not very secure. |
| 02:36.38 | Nach | DeFender1031: indeed, the money for the hit would be much better spent funding devuan or bribing the right people at Debian |
| 02:37.27 | chillfan | anyway dropping alsa support in mozilla is ridiculous |
| 02:38.03 | Nach | doesn't Mozilla know that quite a few distributions do not do PA? |
| 02:38.30 | furrywolf | chillfan: I have to wonder if there isn't some political push to it... try to force people to use pulse whether they want to or not, just like trying to force people to use systemd whether they want to or not... same strategy... keep convincing other developers to make their software depend on it. |
| 02:38.42 | Digitteknohippie | they dont seem to care. seems to be a "well this makes it simpler for us" reasoning only, treating the rest as externalities. |
| 02:39.41 | chillfan | furrywolf: maybe, mozilla is going in a direction that only hardcore supporters and admirers will condone (e.g elitists who don't consider the facts) |
| 02:40.07 | Nach | Mozilla is also looking to drop all their extensions which is why people stuck with FF in the first place |
| 02:40.12 | chillfan | but heh that describes debian now as well |
| 02:40.43 | chillfan | probably they just want to jump on the band wagon and "remove some cruft" in favour of unity |
| 02:40.45 | DeFender1031 | Nach, not funny. |
| 02:41.11 | MinceR | mozilla's been on a downward spiral for a while already |
| 02:41.16 | DeFender1031 | furrywolf, seems likely |
| 02:41.35 | furrywolf | it seems like a pulse-free devuan would be a good step. |
| 02:42.13 | Nach | I think Mozilla completely lost it when they couldn't figure out how to release security updates without requiring UI changes |
| 02:42.30 | DeFender1031 | chillfan, Re: "but heh that describes debian now as well" I agree. I'v noted that the people here are far friendlier, more helpful, and more chill than any experience I've ever had in the debian channel. |
| 02:42.44 | DeFender1031 | (And thank you all for that, btw. It's a refreshing change.) |
| 02:43.06 | Nach | DeFender1031: indeed, it's not funny. I wish people would stop focusing on the problem, and just work on actually fixing it, like devuan is doing |
| 02:43.33 | Digitteknohippie | amen. much love to you all for that. |
| 02:44.17 | DeFender1031 | is curious who here if any are officially involved with the project and might actually have some ability to do things such as move furrywolf's suggestion forward |
| 02:44.27 | chillfan | if i'm honest I was somewhat an elitist myself, but imo that was when debian had something to be elitist about :p |
| 02:44.37 | furrywolf | last time I was in #debian, I asked about some non-devuan-related package issue, and got so much abuse for using devuan instead of debian that I haven't been back. |
| 02:44.41 | furrywolf | they hate devuan. |
| 02:44.43 | Digitteknohippie | doesnt matter how /I/ define it. those terms are already defined. RE:<DeFender1031> Digitteknohippie, i'm curious how you personally define the difference between "open source freeware" and "free software"? |
| 02:44.49 | Nach | DeFender1031: Although Devuan did add the package 'xlennart' |
| 02:44.51 | chillfan | on the other hand I do find these channels more relaxed |
| 02:45.19 | DeFender1031 | Digitteknohippie, chillfan pointed out that i meant to tag h(im/er) on that anyway. |
| 02:45.25 | furrywolf | DeFender1031: I've been making my suggestion for a long time now. Those that are competent enough to actually do something about it (i.e. not me) have too much on their plates already. |
| 02:45.45 | Digitteknohippie | ah. just reading back over what i missed when reading licenses etc. |
| 02:45.49 | DeFender1031 | furrywolf, the same thing happened to me |
| 02:46.34 | DeFender1031 | (i was stupid and made the mistake of mentioning that i wasn't really on debian) |
| 02:47.05 | DeFender1031 | furrywolf, I can imagine. Seems that devuan lacks the support it needs to pick up the way it should |
| 02:47.08 | Nach | DeFender1031: https://github.com/Xylemon/xlennart |
| 02:48.22 | furrywolf | lol |
| 02:48.28 | chillfan | imo, it's about people pulling together to make things happen regardless of skill set |
| 02:48.36 | DeFender1031 | Nach, what is this xlennart thing? |
| 02:48.58 | chillfan | it's like xbill but you lennart from installing systemd on your computers :p |
| 02:49.03 | chillfan | stop lennart* |
| 02:49.21 | DeFender1031 | chillfan, you talking about free software with the "pulling together" thing? |
| 02:49.33 | DeFender1031 | chillfan, hahaha |
| 02:49.41 | Digitteknohippie | cant let this slip by without comment either. "Free Software" seems to me as in line with "Free Speech" or "Free Energy"... nothing wrong there. is there somewhere else they're "coopting English and using non-applicable definitions for" something (let alone everything). it's not even legalese, which does seem to do that. lol re: <Nach> The whole "free software foundation" is about coopting English and using non-applicable |
| 02:49.41 | Digitteknohippie | definitions for everything |
| 02:50.00 | chillfan | I'm thinking of the Devuan community, but yeah free software too (or open source, I don't think anyone need disagree on philosophy in the face of systemd) |
| 02:50.04 | Nach | DeFender1031: it's a game where these little guys that look a bit like LP run around trying to infect major distros and destroy them, and you must stop him |
| 02:50.27 | DeFender1031 | Digitteknohippie, that actually makes it alot clearer, thanks |
| 02:50.29 | Nach | DeFender1031: and the game is a bit violent |
| 02:50.34 | furrywolf | free speech and free energy are different usages of free. |
| 02:50.42 | chillfan | devuan does it's best to encourage people to get involved, find a problem bring it up, feel like helping out, go ahead etc |
| 02:51.06 | Nach | Digitteknohippie: multiple places on their site they seem to be coopting English, also several places in the GPL |
| 02:51.27 | DeFender1031 | chillfan, "regardless of skillset" seems a little naive to me though... more like "using everyone's skillset where best suited" no? I feel like unskilled people trying to write code is how you end up with systemd. |
| 02:52.16 | Nach | Digitteknohippie: "Free Energy" means no-cost, so if "Free Software" is in line with that, thanks for agreeing |
| 02:52.34 | Nach | as for "free speech" it's an action humans do, so it's also in the realm of animate |
| 02:52.40 | Digitteknohippie | which version of the GPL? GPL1 is a joy to read, imo. GPL2 and GPL3 got more legalese scrutiny, n are less so "plain english". still not sure what places on their site they seem to be coopting english. there is stuff that may trip the uninformed, but that's why they explain it. |
| 02:52.44 | chillfan | DeFender1031: well I would define that as not in their skill set, but people can learn too |
| 02:52.56 | Nach | Digitteknohippie: 2, and 3 is even worse |
| 02:52.56 | Digitteknohippie | Nach, that's not my understanding of Free Energy. |
| 02:53.01 | chillfan | and once they do maybe they'll have something useful |
| 02:53.22 | Nach | Digitteknohippie: if they have to explain it, it usually means they're coopting it |
| 02:53.30 | chillfan | but helping people get setup etc is good too |
| 02:53.37 | DeFender1031 | chillfan, learn, sure, but I'm not a fan of letting a florist loose on critical code without some oversight and training along the way |
| 02:54.27 | DeFender1031 | (my first thought for that sentence was actually "garbage man", but then I realized that he's the smartest and most capable person in the world.) |
| 02:54.37 | Nach | DeFender1031: I wouldn't even want skilled programmers let loose on critical code unless they're really familiar with the code base and the language and the problem domain |
| 02:55.44 | DeFender1031 | chillfan, oh, i was referring to pushing the project forward, making real progress toward a better distro free of mismanaged and poorly designed software |
| 02:56.19 | chillfan | ah right |
| 02:56.21 | DeFender1031 | chillfan, obviously anyone who has some experience in setting it up can likely help someone else set up |
| 02:56.38 | DeFender1031 | simply by fact of "oh yeah, i had that problem too" |
| 02:56.58 | Digitteknohippie | the Free in Free Energy is as the Free in Free Speech, and Free Software. you can be charged a fee for entry to an auditorium to hear someone give a speech, without their speech being censored or otherwise contorted by laws/statutes about what they cannot say. likewise the materials and labour that went into a Free Energy device can have a pricetag on them too, but you're still Free to use that device to continually reap the energy it |
| 02:56.58 | Digitteknohippie | enables you to access. just as you can be charged for free software too... tho, that's a rare cat these days. |
| 02:57.57 | Nach | Digitteknohippie: a "free energy" device is not what "free" is being applied to. Free is an adverb to "energy" not the device. |
| 02:58.18 | Digitteknohippie | ... ? |
| 02:58.19 | furrywolf | (free energy) device, not free (energy device). :) |
| 02:58.29 | Nach | what furrywolf said |
| 02:58.33 | Nach | the energy itself is free |
| 02:58.37 | Nach | "no cost" |
| 02:58.38 | Digitteknohippie | and how would you access free energy without a device? |
| 02:58.51 | furrywolf | and in this case free is referring to without entropic costs, not without monetary costs. |
| 02:59.18 | Digitteknohippie | no nach. go look to the free energy comunity for further clarification on this. |
| 02:59.27 | Nach | however it does not mean the energy is free to float unencumbered without "the man" holding it down |
| 02:59.49 | Digitteknohippie | that's exactly what it means |
| 02:59.59 | Nach | okay, good luck with that then |
| 03:00.08 | furrywolf | starts to wonder if Digitteknohippie is just trolling |
| 03:00.14 | Digitteknohippie | nope. |
| 03:00.17 | Digitteknohippie | dead serious. |
| 03:00.42 | Digitteknohippie | freedom energy. |
| 03:00.57 | Digitteknohippie | i really didnt think that would be a point of contention. |
| 03:01.16 | Nach | yeah, the anti matter had that energy locked in a cage for 50 years, and freedom fighters had to break it out |
| 03:01.21 | furrywolf | willfully refusing to listen to what other people are saying is a form of trolling. |
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| 03:02.29 | Digitteknohippie | ... furrywolf are /you/ trolling me now? :P from my perspective, i'm the one being pushed to frustration. |
| 03:02.49 | Nach | Digitteknohippie: Maybe you've been drinking the FSF coolaid for too long? :P |
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| 03:03.02 | furrywolf | "free" can mean multiple things. "without cost" is one. "without restrictions" is another. |
| 03:03.15 | furrywolf | it can mean one without the other. |
| 03:03.17 | Digitteknohippie | Nach, I dont recall fsf ever mentioning free energy. |
| 03:03.38 | Nach | it depends how "free" is applied |
| 03:03.55 | Nach | if as an adverb (inanimate objects / acitvities) it means no cost |
| 03:04.10 | DeFender1031 | Digitteknohippie, so basically the idea is that anyone should be able to create any software they feel like creating? |
| 03:04.12 | Nach | if as an adjective to a living thing or a living action, then it means without restrictions |
| 03:04.31 | chillfan | to be fair, there is nothing wrong with free software philosophy, and I prefer it to "open source" eventhough I consider the pragmatic value of free software too |
| 03:04.38 | furrywolf | the "free" in "free energy" uses the "without cost" meaning of free, except the cost is entropy, not money. a free energy device may be quite expensive to run, but as long as it's not following the currently understood laws of thermodynamics, it's still a free energy device. |
| 03:05.17 | chillfan | though in the term "free" I care less about price |
| 03:05.36 | Nach | furrywolf: maybe he's thinking about it as unbound to typical laws, and therefore "freedom"? |
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| 03:06.47 | furrywolf | "free" in "free t-shirts" is again the "without cost" version, not the "without restrictions" version - it likely has very many restrictions attached, like being unable to copy the design of the shirt, or the image printed on the shirt, or to wear it in circumstances where it would misrepresent you as being associated with a company featured on the shirt, etc. |
| 03:06.49 | Digitteknohippie | i thought it was explicitly (and from context) clear the use meant energÃa libre. |
| 03:07.49 | DeFender1031 | I care more about good software than free software (in either sense of the word) |
| 03:07.54 | furrywolf | "free" as in "free speech" is the "without restrictions" meaning. you're allowed to say whatever you want in your speech. But it might not be "without cost" - you might still have to pay to print your book, or broadcast your radio signal. |
| 03:08.15 | Nach | DeFender1031: in either sense of "good" right? Meaning both quality and not amoral, correct? |
| 03:08.33 | DeFender1031 | Nach, I meant in either sense of "free", but that too. |
| 03:08.59 | *** join/#devuan technoid_ (~technoid@3jane.sbce.org) |
| 03:09.54 | furrywolf | "free" as in "free software" is again the "without restrictions" definition. you're allowed to do whatever you want with the software. you can modify it, copy it, redistribute it, and do other actions that are restricted for non-free software. again, it may not be "without cost" - you might have to pay for media, bandwidth, etc. |
| 03:10.08 | Digitteknohippie | um... "the idea" if refers to free software, is clearly defined with the 4 freedoms. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html RE:<DeFender1031> Digitteknohippie, so basically the idea is that anyone should be able to create any software they feel like creating? |
| 03:10.16 | Nach | furrywolf: that's the FSF definition of the term, but that's not neccesarily how others will use it |
| 03:10.23 | DeFender1031 | btw, if anyone cares, I still have no sound from either FF or pale moon, though I doubt at this point there's a way to change that without extensive development. |
| 03:10.31 | furrywolf | now, what part of this is difficult? I thought this was understood by anyone past about third grade? |
| 03:11.01 | furrywolf | DeFender1031: given as mozilla says they don't want you to have sound, it's probably never being fixed. |
| 03:11.43 | DeFender1031 | Digitteknohippie, thanks, that fully answers my question in a way that none of this other back-and-forth has. |
| 03:11.44 | chillfan | are you using Steve Pusser's builds? |
| 03:11.51 | Nach | DeFender1031: if you just want sound from video stuff, you might be able to install an extension which hijacks embedded video with something more useful like mplayer or something |
| 03:11.53 | furrywolf | you're an evil person who doesn't use pulseaudio. you should just submit. |
| 03:12.07 | Digitteknohippie | furrywolf: your free energy example's acceptable to me. it's of emancipation, rather than gratis. |
| 03:12.34 | DeFender1031 | furrywolf, well, not unless I teach myself how to work with sound, spend months going through the source code to see how it works, and develop a patch for it on my own, no. |
| 03:12.34 | furrywolf | of course, free energy is a bad example, because it doesn't seem to exist. :) |
| 03:13.02 | furrywolf | although IF (and that's a big IF) the emdrive is real, it may be a path to what would currently be considered free energy. |
| 03:13.05 | Digitteknohippie | "i havnt seen it, it must not exist" is what that suggests to me. |
| 03:13.11 | chillfan | here you can get a grant for solar panel installation :p |
| 03:13.18 | Digitteknohippie | poor old casimir. |
| 03:13.27 | DeFender1031 | Nach, that's a fascinating thought. Still won't help with things like alerts and notifications, but it'd at least help... i wonder if there IS such an extension... |
| 03:13.37 | furrywolf | chillfan: that's the other free. :P |
| 03:14.44 | chillfan | to be fair I've never paid for free software |
| 03:15.11 | furrywolf | there's at least one piece of free software that, to get a copy of the source, you have to pay the author to print it on letter-sized paper and mail it to you. |
| 03:15.50 | Digitteknohippie | and if one had to pay for freeware, they'd be in breach off the freeware license. freeware means gratis. free software means the 4 freedoms (as linked above). open source means... idk it's like 50 different points they have in their definition. |
| 03:15.51 | furrywolf | most free software is also free, but not all. |
| 03:16.05 | Nach | DeFender1031: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1021761 |
| 03:16.08 | DeFender1031 | Digitteknohippie, so after reading those four freedoms, I'm not sure I agree that they should be a fundamental right for ALL software the way free speech is for ALL speech, but it seems like a good idea for anything that's a pretty generic tool. |
| 03:16.31 | DeFender1031 | (Like an operating system, a text editor, etc.) |
| 03:17.15 | Digitteknohippie | well, fortunately, it's not all software. it's only the software the developer has chosen to release as free software. it's not mandatory that all software be free software. |
| 03:17.39 | Nach | DeFender1031: here's a patch for palemoon: http://ossnext.trueinstruments.com/forum/download/file.php?id=156&sid=e55452a7b31141c11110686bdf573c92 |
| 03:18.07 | Nach | DeFender1031: maybe we can convince the author or the distributor to apply the patch |
| 03:18.42 | golinux | Any chance you could move the OT chat to #debianfork? |
| 03:18.53 | furrywolf | moves self onto golinux's lap |
| 03:19.58 | Nach | DeFender1031: oh apparently the patch is now in palemoon, the distributor is probably not compiling with OSS enabled |
| 03:20.16 | DeFender1031 | golinux, i feel like OT isn't really a big deal if nothing else is going on in the channel at the moment anyway |
| 03:20.54 | DeFender1031 | golinux, but obviously i won't contiue OT discussion if asked not to in a channel i don't control |
| 03:21.26 | DeFender1031 | Nach, hmm... I wonder if there's some other distributor who does. |
| 03:25.56 | Nach | DeFender1031: the real question is why doesn't the ALSA emulation work? |
| 03:26.33 | DeFender1031 | Nach, that's also a good question, but if there's a build somewhere with native OSS support that DOES work, I care less. |
| 03:27.35 | furrywolf | brr, it's going to be another cold night. |
| 03:29.25 | *** join/#devuan golinux (~golinux@unaffiliated/golinux) |
| 03:34.37 | golinux | Thankfully, botbot hasn't been logging all day so none of this long conversation will be clogging the logs. |
| 03:40.28 | Inocuous | that's rich. clogging the logs |
| 03:43.54 | DeFender1031 | golinux, ah, logs. that changes things. |
| 03:45.09 | golinux | Yes. https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan (see the topic for this channel) |
| 03:57.32 | DeFender1031 | golinux, fair enough, I, at least, will do my part to try to stay on topic in the future |
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| 04:42.44 | xar- | what will the final release of devuan use for its init system? |
| 04:47.17 | Digitteknohippie | funny how conversation can drift through tangent upon tangent to wildly off-topic. if i may bring this back on topic... if firefox were to depend, not just on pulse, but systemd, what would devuan's choice/options be? and is iceweasel already prepared for this? icecat? palemoon? |
| 04:50.49 | DeFender1031 | xar-, what do you mean by "final release"? |
| 04:51.17 | DeFender1031 | Digitteknohippie, devuan's choices would be pale moon or some other fork. |
| 04:51.28 | xar- | so my understanding is that devuan isn't officially released yet |
| 04:51.37 | xar- | so when it is, what will ship as the init system by default? |
| 04:52.13 | DeFender1031 | xar-, sees the choices are either sysvinit or systemd, and given the founding premise of devuan, the answer to your question would seem obvious |
| 04:52.21 | DeFender1031 | seems* |
| 04:53.00 | furrywolf | curls up into a wolfyball for bedtime |
| 04:53.26 | Digitteknohippie | DeFender1031: no. there wont be systemd as a default init for Devuan. XD |
| 04:53.28 | xar- | the web site says sinit, openrc, runit, s6, and shepherd, was just looking for some clarity shrug |
| 04:54.22 | DeFender1031 | Digitteknohippie, gee, ya think? |
| 04:54.47 | DeFender1031 | Digitteknohippie, there won't even be the option to switch to it in devuan AFAIA. |
| 04:54.50 | Digitteknohippie | sorry, it's just how you worded that, seemed like you were saying those would be the two choices. |
| 04:55.17 | Digitteknohippie | afaiu, sysV, xar- |
| 04:55.20 | DeFender1031 | Digitteknohippie, i meant that there are two prominent choices in debian at the moment |
| 04:55.53 | DeFender1031 | Digitteknohippie, and that obviously one of them will not be the one devuan uses. |
| 04:56.04 | Digitteknohippie | nods |
| 04:56.12 | DeFender1031 | Digitteknohippie, but you're right, I guess I worded it weirdly. |
| 05:07.52 | Digitteknohippie | after pleasant experiences with void linux, i quite like the idea of having this devuan install use runit (once i research enough to get past being too timid to dive in implementing that). doubtless far easier choosing your init on devuan, than debian, the poor saps. |
| 05:09.53 | DeFender1031 | Digitteknohippie, it wouldn't bother me as much if there was a choice |
| 05:10.16 | golinux | Digitteknohippie: You might find this helpful: http://troubleshooters.com/linux/init/ |
| 05:13.16 | Digitteknohippie | :) thnx golinux. i think i might indeed. |
| 05:18.26 | golinux | G'nite all |
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| 06:47.22 | Digitteknohippie | apt-mark holds pulseaudio packages, just incase |
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| 07:26.50 | Centurion_Dan | o/ |
| 07:28.16 | Centurion_Dan | did I miss anything important? |
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| 07:46.26 | Centurion_Dan | o/ Antofox |
| 07:46.44 | Centurion_Dan | how goes it with mate and cinnamon |
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| 07:48.39 | debdog | <i4dnf> https://qa-reports.gentoo.org/output/genrdeps/dindex/sys-apps/systemd (packages that depend on systemd at buildtime.... ) |
| 07:49.08 | debdog | if that's helpful for someone |
| 07:53.42 | AntoFox | Centurion_Dan: o/ |
| 07:54.49 | AntoFox | I am updating mate and I'm removing libsystemd0 from some package |
| 07:55.47 | AntoFox | cinnamon has some problems, but nothing serious there I have to work a little bit |
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| 08:02.55 | Centurion_Dan | ok. let me know and point me to the git repo's and i'll have a look. |
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| 08:28.17 | joostvb | добÑо ÑÑÑÑо |
| 08:30.06 | jaromil | doberdan |
| 08:31.14 | KatolaZ | doberman |
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| 08:33.06 | joostvb | KatolaZ: :) |
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| 18:18.04 | golinux | Just checking to see that botbot is functional again. |
| 18:18.32 | golinux | YEA! Missed all yesterday though . . . |
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| 19:04.32 | minnesotags | nextime and Centurion_Dan; I'm not sure what needs updating on build004, but I ran apt-get update && apt-get upgrade on it, in case you want to try adding it to jenkins again. |
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