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| 01:01.49 | jonadab | MinceR: I don't know what changed in RedHat 7; that was early days for me and I was trying out different distros on purpose. |
| 01:02.16 | jonadab | Mandrake 7 was slightly more up-to-date than RedHat 6 (still current at the time), so I went with Mandrake for a bit. |
| 01:02.39 | MinceR | ic |
| 01:02.43 | jonadab | I also tried Storm at one point. |
| 01:02.50 | MinceR | maybe KatolaZ knows |
| 01:03.37 | jonadab | Note that this was RedHat 6 under the earlier RedHat version numbering scheme, before there was Fedora, etc. |
| 01:03.56 | MinceR | indeed |
| 01:03.56 | jonadab | I tried out a CentOS release some time later, briefly. |
| 01:04.13 | MinceR | that rh7 was the first gnu/linux i had on my own equipment |
| 01:04.15 | jonadab | I've used a slackware-derived distro, but it was rather out of date when I used it. |
| 01:04.42 | jonadab | I know that the default GUI in RedHat 6 was Gnome 0.something, back when Gnome still had features. |
| 01:05.01 | MinceR | i think rh7 had that too |
| 01:05.11 | MinceR | or maybe 1.x, but it still had features nevertheless |
| 01:05.28 | MinceR | like a wm selector in gnome control center, and the ability for the panel to swallow arbitrary windows |
| 01:06.02 | jonadab | And floating always-on-top panels, so you could have a clock positioned where it would be just to the left of the minimize button on a maximized window :-) |
| 01:07.03 | jonadab | (Not partial transparency, though; that would've been harder to do on the hardware of the day, I think.) |
| 01:07.34 | jonadab | (A shame, because a 40% opaque always-on-top panel with a clock, positioned right there, would be perfect to this day, IMO. |
| 01:07.37 | jonadab | ) |
| 01:08.19 | jonadab | (Floating, so the panel is only large enough for the clock and a small right-clickable margin so you can adjust it if needed.) |
| 01:09.30 | jonadab | MATE is too little too late. Somebody should've forked Gnome back when the remove-all-features jihad first got started. |
| 01:14.13 | MinceR | indeed |
| 01:14.25 | MinceR | at least we still have Trinity |
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| 01:31.40 | yolan | Hello |
| 01:31.50 | yolan | Whas is the advantages of not using systemd? |
| 01:33.03 | MinceR | this is a question better suited for #debianfork, but here's a good starting point for reading up on it: http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Arguments_against_systemd |
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| 01:33.50 | yolan | Ok thanks, because ithought you were not using systemd in devuan? |
| 01:34.00 | MinceR | indeed we're not |
| 01:34.41 | yolan | Ok ahaha, why then debian's dev choose to keep it? |
| 01:34.58 | yolan | stability? |
| 01:35.37 | MinceR | i'm not sure, i _think_ that the gnome devs on redhat's payroll told them that if they want to keep offering gnome as the default desktop, they'll have to switch, because gnome is going to depend on it hard |
| 01:35.56 | MinceR | or something like that |
| 01:36.02 | yolan | oooh it makes senses |
| 01:36.10 | yolan | yes it's perfectly logical :) |
| 01:36.22 | MinceR | i'm not sure if what's behind the decisions of their inner circle are privy to public scrutiny |
| 01:36.30 | yolan | And devuan is soon to be approved by the fsf as well? |
| 01:36.39 | yolan | as i've seen :) |
| 01:36.45 | yolan | It's all free software |
| 01:36.53 | MinceR | probably not, but i've heard of a derivative of devuan that's aiming towards being fsf-approved |
| 01:37.30 | yolan | amazing |
| 01:37.58 | MinceR | another possible reason is simply that debian's circles were so filled up with people who grew up on windows that they honestly believe that aping windows is the "modern" and thus desirable way to do things |
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| 01:38.09 | MinceR | and therefore the only right way was to force systemd on debian users |
| 01:38.51 | technoid_ | slackware for life |
| 01:39.03 | MinceR | this is the derivative i meant >> https://gnuinos.org/index.php/en/ |
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| 01:41.06 | yolan | with all of that Gnewsenses is really left behind :s |
| 01:41.22 | yolan | thanks for the link, you're awesome! :D |
| 01:41.48 | MinceR | np |
| 01:51.19 | Artemis3 | jonadab, no need to take fuzzy guessing: https://archive.debian.net/ woody used kernel 2.2 with 2.4 as an option. |
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| 05:29.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~systemd |
| 05:29.38 | infobot | systemd cabal: a bunch of people (Lennart Poettering, Kay Sievers, H. Hoyer, D. Mack, T. Gundersen, D. Herrmann) who want to turn linux into their wet dream perverted version of windows-me-too: http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html -- Rumor has it that 2016 systemd will have replaced kernel. See ~nosystemd" |
| 05:29.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~nosystemd |
| 05:29.50 | infobot | methinks nosystemd is https://devuan.org http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Arguments_against_systemd http://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2015/10/11/0/ |
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| 05:40.03 | KatolaZ | MinceR: rh7 was a complete failure |
| 05:40.16 | KatolaZ | put out well before it was a proper beta |
| 05:40.23 | KatolaZ | nothing worked |
| 05:40.27 | KatolaZ | mismatched libraries |
| 05:40.34 | KatolaZ | broken packages |
| 05:40.41 | KatolaZ | and so on |
| 05:40.56 | KatolaZ | they tried to fix it in RH 7.1, and it was another major bloat |
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| 06:22.23 | NeonLicht | b |
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| 07:39.13 | aitor | good morning |
| 07:41.46 | aitor | Mandrake, what times those were |
| 07:43.57 | aitor | the magician Mandrake |
| 07:44.11 | aitor | they lost a lawsuit and had to change its name to Mandriva |
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| 10:19.19 | AntoFox | o/ |
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| 10:20.36 | whistlingkappa | o/ |
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| 10:24.14 | damiano | I wish to compliment all devuan people for the work done on beta2 |
| 10:24.49 | damiano | I am testing beta2 in Kde mode and it is brilliant, so far no setback found, great |
| 10:25.15 | whistlingkappa | I'm intrigued by the concept. Torrenting now |
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| 10:38.54 | MinceR | KatolaZ: i see |
| 10:40.03 | MinceR | i thought Mandrake became Mandriva because they merged with Conectiva |
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| 10:47.51 | jaromil | thanks and happy hacking :^) |
| 10:48.10 | KatolaZ | MinceR: don't remember why mandrake had to change name |
| 10:48.30 | KatolaZ | but aitor seems to remember of a lawsuit |
| 10:48.45 | KatolaZ | anyway, it was long, long ago |
| 10:49.03 | KatolaZ | and I had stopped fiddling with RPMs by then :D |
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| 10:51.05 | MinceR | :) |
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| 11:28.26 | aitor | KatolaZ: the lawsuit was with the family of the author of french cartoon character, i seem to remember: |
| 11:28.29 | aitor | https://www.google.es/search?q=mago+mandrake&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjowIeggOfQAhWDbxQKHfIeChsQsAQIKQ&biw=1280&bih=656 |
| 11:29.01 | KatolaZ | thanks aitor :) |
| 11:30.13 | KatolaZ | actually, also wikipedia reports the same story |
| 11:30.32 | KatolaZ | I had forgotten it completely |
| 11:31.42 | KatolaZ | (and I used to have mandrake 5.x installed, at some point) |
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| 11:33.08 | aitor | conectiva emerged from an internal crisis in mandriva |
| 11:33.17 | aitor | and, after that, mageia |
| 11:33.23 | aitor | i think |
| 11:36.21 | KatolaZ | connectiva was a separate distribution, as far as I remember |
| 11:36.32 | KatolaZ | Mandrake was originally developed by a French team |
| 11:36.39 | KatolaZ | and connectiva by a brazilian one |
| 11:36.40 | aitor | yes |
| 11:37.02 | aitor | yes, that's true, i was wrong |
| 11:38.49 | KatolaZ | but I didn't know that Mandriva had been discontinued |
| 11:39.18 | KatolaZ | I just learnt that the project is now split between OpenMandriva and Mageia |
| 11:39.21 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 11:39.49 | aitor | mandriva was economically unsustainable |
| 11:40.20 | KatolaZ | I have no idea |
| 11:40.49 | KatolaZ | since 2001 for me it was just a matter of when the next Debian stable would have been announced |
| 11:40.58 | KatolaZ | so that I could have switched to testing again |
| 11:40.59 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 11:41.47 | KatolaZ | I only followed a bit the small and tiny distributions in the meanwhile |
| 11:42.36 | aitor | some code of the current resmastering tools has the origin in mandriva |
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| 11:43.11 | KatolaZ | I remember we used to give away Mandrake/Mandriva CDs at installation parties |
| 11:43.51 | KatolaZ | but now I feel like a stegosaurus... :( |
| 11:44.59 | aitor | lol |
| 11:45.15 | aitor | mandriva sold persistant usb sticks |
| 11:46.32 | aitor | ~13:00, brb |
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| 13:51.41 | Artemis3 | KatolaZ, and i remember ubuntu giving cds and stickers away, and even shipping those for free to contries like mine xD |
| 14:03.14 | chillfan | the days of helpful communities.. I remember this :p |
| 14:04.33 | chillfan | the quality of community was quite high back then |
| 14:05.56 | Artemis3 | interesting that a cli only 32 bit install takes 132m of ram atm |
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| 14:07.17 | Artemis3 | and that /lib/systemd/systemd-udevd --daemon process xD |
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| 14:29.13 | fsmithred | Artemis3, I see around 30-40m of ram used in cli. 132m sounds wrong. What's running? |
| 14:32.14 | Artemis3 | nothing, just did a base install |
| 14:33.30 | fsmithred | weird |
| 14:33.35 | Artemis3 | ok rebooted free says 69m |
| 14:33.45 | fsmithred | ok, that's a lot better |
| 14:33.58 | fsmithred | I'm booting now to see what mine really is |
| 14:34.14 | Artemis3 | but i did apt upgrade and it brought the backports kernel xD |
| 14:34.34 | fsmithred | 89 |
| 14:34.37 | fsmithred | wow |
| 14:34.41 | Artemis3 | so 4.7 instead of 3.16 |
| 14:34.45 | fsmithred | ok |
| 14:34.50 | Artemis3 | lemme reboot and pick the older one |
| 14:35.24 | Artemis3 | 65m |
| 14:35.26 | Artemis3 | weird |
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| 14:37.14 | Artemis3 | and i haven't installed anything else either |
| 14:37.40 | fsmithred | ps_mem.py shows only 34m used. |
| 14:38.17 | fsmithred | last time I checked antix, I think it used around 65 with the desktop running |
| 14:38.27 | Artemis3 | where is that python script? |
| 14:38.46 | fsmithred | let me see if I can find it |
| 14:40.10 | Artemis3 | maybe its the buffers stuff nvm |
| 14:40.24 | Artemis3 | top |
| 14:40.30 | Artemis3 | xD |
| 14:40.38 | fsmithred | https://github.com/pixelb/ps_mem |
| 14:40.48 | chillfan | you can clear out the caches with echo 3 > /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches |
| 14:44.15 | chillfan | using 187M here after clearing caches, only using openbox and irsii though |
| 14:44.38 | Artemis3 | im getting pip installed xD |
| 14:49.34 | n4dir | how is it rocking, fsmithred? |
| 14:53.54 | fsmithred | hi n4dir |
| 14:54.02 | n4dir | hi |
| 14:54.23 | Artemis3 | ps_mem says 19.3m free says 78m minus buffers 8.8m cached 38m |
| 14:54.54 | fsmithred | didn't it list individual programs with their mem use? |
| 14:55.05 | Artemis3 | yes |
| 14:55.15 | Artemis3 | dhclient is the biggest with 5.4m |
| 14:55.22 | Artemis3 | then bash with 2.5m |
| 14:55.35 | Artemis3 | then systemd-udevd with 1.7m |
| 14:56.34 | Artemis3 | exim 1.5m, rsyslogd 1.5m, getty 1.3m, login 1m... |
| 14:56.41 | fsmithred | try it when you're running a browser on a desktop |
| 14:56.55 | Artemis3 | need to install a desktop first xD |
| 14:57.25 | fsmithred | some would tell you otherwise |
| 14:57.39 | chillfan | 19.3M free.. are you running 128MB system? |
| 14:57.48 | Artemis3 | hmm which desktop to try... |
| 14:57.55 | chillfan | oh nvm I misread |
| 14:58.06 | Artemis3 | now thats ram used |
| 14:58.12 | Artemis3 | according to ps_mem |
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| 14:59.54 | fsmithred | if you have time to play, try a few different de's or wm's |
| 15:00.36 | Artemis3 | ill throw tasksel desktop and let it install xfce i guess |
| 15:00.39 | chillfan | that python script is a nice idea actually.. |
| 15:01.01 | fsmithred | yeah, it's helpful for nuking useless stuff |
| 15:01.49 | Artemis3 | at my work place i have various computers i can experiment with as well, already had a preseed working for devuan installs xD |
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| 15:33.25 | nextime | o/ |
| 15:39.56 | KatolaZ | Artemis3: "a cli only 32 bit install" of what takes 132MB of RAM? |
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| 16:18.55 | jelly | something glibc-based |
| 16:19.32 | jelly | 5M RES for a dhcp client sounds huge |
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| 16:44.24 | Artemis3 | i said it was a devuan base install |
| 16:44.38 | KatolaZ | sorry Artemis3, lost that bit |
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| 17:19.44 | txt-file | are there backports for jessie? |
| 17:25.10 | KatolaZ | txt-file: you can use Debian-backports |
| 17:29.19 | txt-file | KatolaZ, will do |
| 17:37.05 | golinux | txt-file: Use the devuan.org/merged repo not Debian's |
| 17:37.14 | golinux | for backports |
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| 17:44.10 | Artemis3 | with task-desktop installed it reports 172.2 MiB ram use |
| 17:45.58 | Artemis3 | 168.2 MiB using kernel 3.16 instead of 4.7 from bpo. |
| 17:46.08 | KatolaZ | golinux: do we have a backports merged iat devuan.org? |
| 17:46.15 | KatolaZ | I knew about updates |
| 17:46.20 | KatolaZ | not backports |
| 17:46.24 | KatolaZ | I'll double-check |
| 17:48.50 | golinux | Yes. |
| 17:48.56 | golinux | I use it. |
| 17:49.14 | golinux | Security too |
| 17:50.49 | golinux | Remember in the beginning both bpo and dmo were merged with the main repo. It was an amprolla test. Then nextime separated them but still in the devuan repos |
| 17:51.22 | golinux | Not a good idea to use 'uncleansed' debian stuff |
| 17:53.17 | KatolaZ | I was wrong, indeed |
| 17:53.26 | KatolaZ | I was still using bpo from debian :D |
| 17:55.26 | blinkdog | is there a list of what still needs cleansing? |
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| 19:47.34 | peetaur | how do I troubleshoot a startup issue... service postgresql start works just fine, but on boot, it won't start or log anything. |
| 19:48.02 | peetaur | with openrc, /var/log/rc.log has all that info, but is there a way to enable it with sysvinit? |
| 19:53.53 | peetaur | using this trick I can find it is actually running the init script, just postgres fails to start, without logging anything...so it's postgres' fault |
| 19:54.01 | peetaur | in the init script: exec 1>/tmp/init.log 2>&1 |
| 19:56.43 | blinkdog | peetaur: what do the postgres logs say? |
| 19:56.59 | peetaur | blinkdog: it only shows the shutdown, and not the startup |
| 19:59.26 | blinkdog | and what about the logging configuration in /etc/postgresql/9.3/main/postgresql.conf ? |
| 20:00.51 | peetaur | it's 9.4, and I just have default logging options... which I would always assume must log errors |
| 20:00.58 | peetaur | which option do you suggest? |
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| 20:02.30 | blinkdog | make sure log_destination is going where you expect, then turn up (make more verbose) client_min_messages, log_min_messages, log_min_error_statement |
| 20:03.13 | blinkdog | that might help to find out where postgres fails during the init process |
| 20:04.05 | blinkdog | or at least help confirm that postgres is actually run and logging during the init process |
| 20:04.53 | peetaur | the last time I caught it in ps -ef, so it is running and then stops after a while https://bpaste.net/show/04d5f3177d5c |
| 20:07.20 | blinkdog | hmmm, mine looks like: |
| 20:07.21 | blinkdog | postgres 1496 1 0 09:02 ? 00:00:00 /usr/lib/postgresql/9.3/bin/postgres -D /var/lib/postgresql/9.3/main -c config_file=/etc/postgresql/9.3/main/postgresql.conf |
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| 20:08.33 | peetaur | after I manually start it, it looks like that https://bpaste.net/show/34dec3cdb3f9 |
| 20:09.20 | blinkdog | your cap has pg_ctlcluster, and it says on the man page has a location for the log: /var/log/postgresql/postgresql-cluster-version-cluster-name.log |
| 20:09.38 | blinkdog | and a location for the config: /etc/postgresql/cluster-version/cluster-name/pg_ctl.conf |
| 20:10.02 | peetaur | ok here's with *_min_messages = debug3 and log_destination=syslog: https://bpaste.net/show/74dc5d6f3e57 |
| 20:10.37 | peetaur | only interesting thing there I see is mmap with MAP_HUGETLB failed, huge pages disabled: Permission denied |
| 20:10.50 | blinkdog | yeah, just going to say that one looks fruitful |
| 20:12.27 | peetaur | it's a grsecurity kernel btw 4.8.13, and previously it was same with 4.7.10 |
| 20:12.49 | peetaur | maybe I'll test it with 4.7.10 |
| 20:13.03 | blinkdog | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/38975182/how-to-determine-whether-postgres-uses-huge-pages |
| 20:13.14 | blinkdog | what is your huge_pages set to in the configuration for postgresql? |
| 20:14.26 | peetaur | works with my 4.7.10 |
| 20:15.00 | peetaur | #huge_pages = try |
| 20:15.36 | peetaur | grep ^HugePages /proc/meminfo shows all 0's |
| 20:16.31 | blinkdog | hmmm, when set to try I wouldn't think it would die if it couldn't use huge pages |
| 20:16.44 | blinkdog | but it must be something else about that 4.8.13 if 4.7.10 is working |
| 20:17.53 | peetaur | and here's the first part of the syslog debug output when it works (kernel 4.7.10) https://bpaste.net/show/5c603db505e3 |
| 20:18.12 | peetaur | which oddly starts with different output than the previous failed one |
| 20:18.25 | peetaur | next I'll diff the kernel .config |
| 20:20.22 | peetaur | http://termbin.com/zsv0 |
| 20:20.25 | peetaur | dunno what to say there |
| 20:20.55 | peetaur | (I grepped only the starting with + and -, and removed the "is not set") |
| 20:23.31 | peetaur | and the config just came from an older debian config and make olddefconfig basically (plus changes to apparmor,selinux,grsec,virtio) |
| 20:23.39 | blinkdog | it's odd that debug output says logging to stderr will stop and go to syslog instead |
| 20:23.51 | blinkdog | that was from syslog, right? |
| 20:24.16 | peetaur | yes |
| 20:27.34 | blinkdog | i confess i'm out of my depth with kernel configs |
| 20:27.57 | peetaur | maybe I should test a vanilla 4.8.13, and then if it works, report it to the grsec forum |
| 20:28.10 | peetaur | it's pretty frequent that I run into grsec bugs and report them, and then they fix them very quickly |
| 20:28.54 | peetaur | (sometimes because I use things maybe nobody else does, like gpm... the daemon that gives you mouse support in text ttys) |
| 20:29.01 | peetaur | (which triggered one bug) |
| 20:29.25 | blinkdog | the debug messages do seem to stop after the shared memory setup |
| 20:29.46 | blinkdog | so maybe it's grsecurity saying no soup for you |
| 20:29.59 | peetaur | the 2nd one is much longer but I just took the first part |
| 20:30.14 | blinkdog | oh okay |
| 20:30.43 | peetaur | and looking for it again....omg so much spam....I need to separate the log file |
| 20:31.31 | peetaur | next line after the paste is : LOG: database system is ready to accept connections |
| 20:31.56 | peetaur | so thanks for looking at it... I guess I have to test it more to solve it, and will run 4.8.13 with a watchdog for now |
| 20:32.07 | peetaur | (all the server does right now is xmpp and postgres) |
| 20:35.57 | blinkdog | a chatlogger? |
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| 21:47.54 | peetaur | blinkdog: in case you're still here, no just a chat server that uses the database for config or whatevers |
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| 23:02.25 | Vall | Howdy everyone |
| 23:03.14 | Vall | Just came in to report I've just finished my second installation of MIYO Linux (Devuan-based) and everything looks peachy |
| 23:03.35 | furrywolf | we already have things based on us? what do they do differently? |
| 23:03.47 | Vall | That was on a Asus EeePC 1005 notebook with an Atom processor and 1GB RAM |
| 23:04.28 | Vall | with firefox logged into GMail and XChat up, I still have more than half the RAM free! ;-) |
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| 23:05.35 | Vall | So congrats to the MIYO, Devuan and Refracta developers |
| 23:06.04 | Vall | Devuan and its derivatives is quickly shaping up to be my go-to distro for everything |
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| 23:08.58 | Vall | BTW, what is the MIYOlinux developer nickname here on IRC? |
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| 23:26.37 | crash_ | miyo? |
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| 23:35.26 | Inocuous | I tried to do a beta install a few minutes ago, Both mirrors listed faulted out. |
| 23:35.31 | Inocuous | anyone know about this? |
| 23:35.53 | Vall | crash_: you mean, his nick? not on the list. |
| 23:36.23 | Vall | Inocuous: been working fine here. You checked the usual culprits (connectivity, etc)? |
| 23:43.40 | crash_ | Vall: oh i meant what miyo was, never heard of it :) |
| 23:44.12 | Vall | LOL |
| 23:45.02 | Vall | crash_: You should check it out: https://sourceforge.net/projects/miyolinux/ |
| 23:45.18 | Vall | Best lightweight distro I've seen for a while |
| 23:45.31 | Vall | And Devuan-based to boot ;-) |
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| 23:49.49 | crash_ | looks like crunchbang :) |
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