| 00:00.45 | *** join/#devuan neo42_ (~neo42@x4e35d421.dyn.telefonica.de) |
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| 00:39.09 | dexter_ | hi. I was wondering about libsystemd0 Is the plan to do away with it as well or not? thanks |
| 00:40.43 | *** join/#devuan pencilandpaper (~penciland@unaffiliated/pencilandpaper) |
| 00:41.41 | dexter_ | Is there a better place to ask my question about libsystemd0? |
| 00:42.11 | *** join/#devuan AbsoluteFreedom (~freedom@112.202.22.172) |
| 00:43.14 | MinceR | this seems to be the best place |
| 00:44.30 | dexter_ | alrighty |
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| 00:49.58 | dexter_ | anyone have any idea if libsystemd0 is considered an issue or not? |
| 00:50.24 | MinceR | depends on whom you ask |
| 00:51.51 | dexter_ | ok |
| 00:52.16 | golinux | I think libsystemd0 is supposed to go after the new amprolla gets up and running (but don't quote me on that) |
| 00:52.44 | golinux | Not_a_Robot: uite aure how they |
| 00:52.55 | golinux | re going to work around it . . . |
| 00:53.20 | golinux | Boy did I mangle that! |
| 00:53.47 | TwistedFate | no more tea for you! |
| 00:53.49 | TwistedFate | xD |
| 00:54.10 | nextime | dexter_: it IS an issue |
| 00:54.25 | nextime | and it will removed as soon as we found it's safe to do it |
| 00:55.14 | Not_a_Robot | golinux: beep beep. Input rejected. |
| 00:55.35 | MinceR | lol |
| 00:57.27 | dexter_ | any timeline on libsystemd removal or what has to happen for it to be removed? |
| 00:58.48 | appleshampoo | is Not_a_Robot actually a robot? |
| 00:58.58 | MinceR | i doubt it |
| 00:59.39 | appleshampoo | I've got IRC bots on the brain, working on some sopel modules |
| 00:59.48 | TwistedFate | you can see it in his nickname, he says hes not |
| 00:59.49 | MinceR | i doubt anyone would go to the effort of including a 2-minute delay in a bot if it's going to say "beep beep" |
| 01:01.21 | Not_a_Robot | Haha |
| 01:01.25 | Not_a_Robot | Yeah, I'm not a robot guys! |
| 01:01.39 | Not_a_Robot | Beep, beep. Humanoid module deactivated. |
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| 01:04.04 | appleshampoo | heh |
| 01:06.44 | dexter_ | If I install devuan will I have libsystemd0 installed? anyone know? |
| 01:08.09 | MinceR | iirc you likely won't (iirc only a few packages depend on it, if any) |
| 01:08.30 | appleshampoo | in my limited experience (installing the rasppi image), it was not part of the base image but was pulled in as a dependency when I installed something else. emacs maybe..don't recall |
| 01:08.51 | appleshampoo | but the rasppi image was likely pared down a fair bit, dunno |
| 01:09.49 | rrq | pulseaudio depends on libsystemd0 |
| 01:10.11 | MinceR | the pulseaudio server? you can likely do without that |
| 01:11.29 | dexter_ | Yea I dont care about pulseaudio. |
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| 01:13.36 | dexter_ | So can I install xfce and will it function like it would normally on another distro? |
| 01:13.37 | rrq | qemu-system-x86 depends on libpulse0 depends on libsystemd0 |
| 01:13.56 | rrq | openjdk-7-jre-headless:amd64 depends on libpulse0 |
| 01:16.29 | dexter_ | I dont care about qemu or openjdk, just normal everyday apps. |
| 01:17.07 | TwistedFate | whats normal for you, may not be for someone else :) |
| 01:17.20 | rrq | yes, I'm not normal ;-) |
| 01:17.47 | TwistedFate | we're all mad here actually :D |
| 01:17.57 | dexter_ | spoon |
| 01:18.45 | MinceR | ah, so the client library does |
| 01:19.13 | MinceR | here's hoping that will get fixed soon |
| 01:19.14 | rrq | Though, I'm reviewing my xfce4 on devuan beta + kernel upgrade, and it seems if you can do without libpulse0, pulsaudio and sane, then you should be fine |
| 01:20.28 | nextime | dexter_: basically we need to be sure that no dependency to libsystemd remain in the devuan packages, and find people to maintain packages that needs to be rebuilt without it |
| 01:20.55 | nextime | dexter_: the release of the final stable jessie will be subjected to comply with that |
| 01:21.38 | nextime | rrq: devuan jessie will NOT remove pulseaudio, as the goal for it is to remove systemd and for the rest remain as close as debian we can |
| 01:21.48 | nextime | pulseaudio removal will be discussed for ascii |
| 01:23.07 | golinux | nextime: Did you know that pulseaudio is going to be a dependency in FF soon? :( That really pisses me off. |
| 01:23.26 | TwistedFate | golinux, WHATTHEFECK??! |
| 01:23.30 | TwistedFate | firefox? |
| 01:23.35 | TwistedFate | with pulse? |
| 01:23.43 | golinux | Yup. |
| 01:23.51 | golinux | Let me find the link . . . |
| 01:23.59 | MinceR | yeah, it's what made me switch to Pale Moon |
| 01:24.04 | TwistedFate | they are taking our desktops\ |
| 01:24.05 | TwistedFate | damn it |
| 01:24.10 | nextime | golinux: never saw that, and it sounds strange to me |
| 01:24.19 | MinceR | it was the last drop in the mozilla bucket |
| 01:24.27 | MinceR | for me |
| 01:24.42 | nextime | well, i have abandoned ff from years now |
| 01:24.46 | MinceR | they round up money from sponsors and spend it on making firefox worse |
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| 01:25.16 | MinceR | and killing thunderbird off |
| 01:25.23 | golinux | https://www.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/451074/firefox_to_make_pulseaudio_a_hard_requirement_on/ |
| 01:26.02 | golinux | I found ti when I was having trouble with VLC stuttering |
| 01:26.12 | TwistedFate | why are they doing that? |
| 01:26.14 | TwistedFate | like seriously |
| 01:26.20 | MinceR | because they're insane morons |
| 01:26.20 | golinux | with alsa output |
| 01:26.35 | TwistedFate | why the fuck would you bind your browser and other software with that shit |
| 01:26.50 | MinceR | maybe redhat pays them for it |
| 01:26.58 | golinux | It doesn't stutter with alsa turned off. |
| 01:27.15 | golinux | I had to downgrade to VLC from wheezy. |
| 01:27.55 | golinux | To use recent versions with alsa pluseaudio is needed, |
| 01:28.14 | TwistedFate | it is sad to see how they are destroying gnu/linux piece by piece.. |
| 01:28.23 | golinux | Doesn't make sense that alsa works via pa but not on its own. |
| 01:29.03 | golinux | In the bug report thay said just use pa. Disgusting . . . |
| 01:29.06 | MinceR | great, vlc had to jump the shark too |
| 01:29.12 | MinceR | can you link that bug report? |
| 01:29.46 | nextime | well |
| 01:29.53 | golinux | https://trac.videolan.org/vlc/ticket/10422 |
| 01:29.55 | nextime | the pulseaudio api are ok and stable |
| 01:29.59 | golinux | There you go |
| 01:30.11 | nextime | so, maybe someone can think about writing an alternative to it |
| 01:30.37 | nextime | or just an abstraction layer for alsa |
| 01:30.45 | TwistedFate | we are grasping by the straws, what are we going to do when all is systemd-ized (ye i made that one up xD) |
| 01:31.43 | golinux | nextime: Please don't defend pulseaudio |
| 01:32.25 | MinceR | they say they fixed it in 3.0.0 |
| 01:33.05 | MinceR | and someone backported the patches to 2.2.x |
| 01:33.52 | nextime | golinux: i don't defend it, it's a crappy piece of shit |
| 01:33.57 | nextime | but the api part are ok |
| 01:34.03 | nextime | api/abi |
| 01:34.14 | nextime | it's all the rest that is bad |
| 01:34.25 | golinux | Yeah, that's what they said but the one in jessie dmo stuttered, |
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| 01:34.57 | golinux | I forget the version numbers but spent several days on it . . . |
| 01:34.59 | MinceR | is the whole 'mixing in userspace' thing viable at all? |
| 01:35.38 | golinux | Sure viable for lock in |
| 01:36.40 | MinceR | (if so, RoarAudio might be worth a look) |
| 01:36.45 | MinceR | http://roaraudio.keep-cool.org/ |
| 01:37.00 | golinux | "Do as 'we' say not as you want to." |
| 01:37.13 | TwistedFate | We need Alsa Reloaded |
| 01:38.08 | golinux | Ah that's the nextime I like to see. :) |
| 01:38.37 | golinux | Calling it like it is . . . |
| 01:38.58 | golinux | Lennart needs a lobotomy |
| 01:39.11 | TwistedFate | Lennart needs Gulag |
| 01:39.43 | golinux | Maybe that too . . . |
| 01:40.13 | MinceR | Grupo de Usuarios de GNU/Linux de La Laguna? |
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| 01:49.15 | MinceR | RA doesn't seem to be terribly active though |
| 01:50.44 | rrq | back to libsystemd0; didn't someone make a dummy variant of some sort? Presumably p8o only tickles the logging subsystem, and one could live without that? |
| 01:51.24 | golinux | Wasn't that systemd-shim? That's gone byebye. |
| 01:52.07 | golinux | They actually asked us if we wanted to maintain it! We declined. |
| 01:52.38 | golinux | WE = Centurion_Dan |
| 01:52.59 | MinceR | yes, someone did |
| 01:53.00 | MinceR | https://github.com/dimkr/nosystem |
| 01:53.47 | MinceR | if it's viable, it would be nice to replace libsystemd with this |
| 01:54.04 | nextime | ma no sense to replace libsystemd0 with it |
| 01:54.16 | MinceR | i think it does make some sense |
| 01:54.24 | nextime | libsystemd0 if you don't have other systemd related things installed |
| 01:54.29 | nextime | it's just a bunch of noop() |
| 01:54.36 | MinceR | it would guarantee that the alleged NOPs indeed remain NOPs regardless of code pushed by redhat/debian |
| 01:54.37 | nextime | we don't need to replace it |
| 01:54.40 | nextime | we need to eradicate it |
| 01:54.54 | golinux | +1 |
| 01:55.04 | MinceR | but yes, removing the dependency is even better |
| 01:55.46 | nextime | our luck is that the way poettering is driving systemd |
| 01:55.53 | nextime | is to remain strictly linux related |
| 01:56.07 | nextime | so, any software project that want to run on unix and not only linux |
| 01:56.22 | MinceR | unfortunately, others are imitating it on other unix-like systems (launchd) |
| 01:56.24 | nextime | needs to remain also in the way you can run without it |
| 01:56.40 | nextime | MinceR: launchd is a lot better |
| 01:56.50 | nextime | but first of all, it doesn't touch us |
| 01:56.51 | MinceR | still broken in similar ways |
| 01:56.53 | TwistedFate | im just shocked how the managed to trick so many people |
| 01:56.55 | nextime | as it doesn't have the same api |
| 01:56.59 | nextime | so, who cares |
| 01:57.00 | nextime | :) |
| 01:57.11 | nextime | TwistedFate: I'm not |
| 01:57.20 | TwistedFate | there really is something wrong with us when we allowed things like systemd to happen |
| 01:57.30 | nextime | brexit wins in UK, in italy 30% of votes are for the populist party |
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| 01:57.32 | nextime | and so on |
| 01:57.35 | MinceR | humanity is allowing all sorts of fucked up things to happen nowadays |
| 01:57.42 | nextime | there are a lot of idiots out there |
| 01:57.49 | rrq | donald? |
| 01:57.53 | MinceR | indeed |
| 01:57.56 | golinux | The majority actually |
| 01:58.05 | nextime | and expecially new generations of developers aren't aware of the reasons behind the choices done with unix |
| 01:58.12 | nextime | they don't know unix philosophy |
| 01:58.27 | TwistedFate | sigh... what are we going to do when linus is gone :( |
| 01:58.28 | dexter_ | If I install devuan with xfce will it be any different than say debian with xfce? Will everything work the same and such? |
| 01:58.57 | nextime | and then, as Henry spencer predicted, |
| 01:59.01 | nextime | "Those who do not understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly" |
| 01:59.05 | nextime | it's just happening |
| 01:59.08 | rrq | dexter: yes, I'd say so. It did for me. |
| 01:59.21 | MinceR | TwistedFate: i'm afraid that will be the end of Linux |
| 01:59.41 | MinceR | considering what people like GKH and poettering and sievers are trying to do to it |
| 01:59.55 | nextime | dexter_: there are many differences, but they are almost under the hood |
| 01:59.56 | TwistedFate | they will have opened gates |
| 01:59.59 | MinceR | and that afaict Linus was often the last line of defense against that |
| 02:00.20 | MinceR | then again, maybe there are enough sane kernel hackers to keep the good stuff going, even if under a different name |
| 02:00.21 | nextime | so, from a user point of view, the differences are minimal |
| 02:00.49 | nextime | MinceR: it can't be the end of linux |
| 02:01.00 | nextime | it can be the split/fork of it in more currencies |
| 02:01.06 | nextime | but it can't end |
| 02:01.30 | nextime | it's open source and free software baby, as long as someone will take the huge work to maintain it |
| 02:01.33 | nextime | it can't die |
| 02:01.47 | TwistedFate | yep, just like systemd thing |
| 02:02.03 | MinceR | well yeah, the question whether that will happen |
| 02:02.04 | TwistedFate | if they start to ruin the kernel, people wont do anything |
| 02:02.12 | TwistedFate | they will allow it, just like they allowed systemd |
| 02:02.20 | MinceR | whether there are enough people with the skills around with the willingness to keep GNU/Linux alive |
| 02:02.30 | nextime | TwistedFate: just like systemd things, there iwll be a group of people that will fork it |
| 02:02.47 | nextime | WE have forked debian cause of systemd |
| 02:02.52 | TwistedFate | nextime, it would be like going against a current |
| 02:03.13 | TwistedFate | small group of people fight to preserve it, a much bigger group trying to make it obsolete |
| 02:03.16 | nextime | TwistedFate: no, it would be just the ramification of a torrent |
| 02:03.21 | nextime | like is for us |
| 02:03.22 | nextime | :) |
| 02:03.53 | dexter_ | thanks for the answer, guess i will give it a try |
| 02:03.58 | nextime | TwistedFate: we are huge, not small. Linus was alone at the start, vs a current of proprietary big unix variants and windows |
| 02:04.17 | nextime | but in the end linux wins |
| 02:04.28 | nextime | and it's today the most used and diffuse OS in the whole world |
| 02:04.45 | nextime | it's not matter of how many are "they" |
| 02:04.48 | TwistedFate | nextime, there has been what, 2 years or so after systemd hit off? there is no real alternative yet |
| 02:05.01 | TwistedFate | devuan is trying but its not there yet |
| 02:05.13 | pydsigner | TwistedFate: Devuan is a distro |
| 02:05.21 | nextime | TwistedFate: devuan is running in hundreds of machines |
| 02:05.34 | pydsigner | systemd is not analogous to Devuan |
| 02:05.36 | nextime | and also there are other distro without systemd |
| 02:05.52 | pydsigner | Manjaro/OpenRC reporting :) |
| 02:05.52 | nextime | you CAN today run linux without it |
| 02:06.02 | pydsigner | And still have stuff like steam work |
| 02:06.18 | MinceR | there's also Slackware, Funtoo, Gentoo |
| 02:06.34 | TwistedFate | as you can see, its only a matter of time until they cut us off from the essential software |
| 02:06.42 | TwistedFate | you cant keep forking everything |
| 02:06.54 | pydsigner | Actually you can |
| 02:06.57 | MinceR | well, whether we can keep forking everything depends on how many of us there are |
| 02:06.59 | nextime | also |
| 02:07.16 | TwistedFate | not enough manpower for that |
| 02:07.30 | nextime | i probably can say that there are today more devuan users than how many debian users there were when i started using debian back in '94 |
| 02:07.33 | nextime | :D |
| 02:07.52 | nextime | TwistedFate: don't worry, we will have enough man power |
| 02:08.11 | golinux | TwistedFate: Why don't you go piss your negativity in another corner? |
| 02:09.06 | golinux | This isn't your urinal |
| 02:10.28 | nextime | TwistedFate: we are not a small minority |
| 02:10.31 | TwistedFate | golinux, dont get me wrong, im not hating on anything (except systemd), but such view can easily become a reality |
| 02:10.43 | TwistedFate | look how easily systemd sneaked in |
| 02:10.53 | nextime | systemd opponents are ~ 50% of the community |
| 02:11.22 | golinux | TwistedFate: What have YOU contributed? |
| 02:11.44 | TwistedFate | ok but, how do you manage to serve something down the throat of majority of the community if they dont like it? its insane |
| 02:12.03 | TwistedFate | golinux, nothing |
| 02:12.08 | MinceR | it seems most people don't care |
| 02:12.10 | nextime | easy enough, there is a thing called money |
| 02:12.29 | golinux | People go to see proctologists too. |
| 02:12.35 | nextime | and redhat is the linux player with more money and big costumers on the shene. |
| 02:12.43 | nextime | s/shene/scene |
| 02:13.32 | nextime | in other words, lobby and a lot of too young people |
| 02:13.36 | nextime | but it's not so bad |
| 02:13.37 | MinceR | big customers like the nsa |
| 02:13.43 | golinux | TwistedFate: Are you running devuan? |
| 02:13.43 | nextime | there is a huge community against it |
| 02:13.47 | MinceR | and canonical and debian have also become their vassals |
| 02:14.00 | TwistedFate | golinux, yes, why? |
| 02:14.00 | MinceR | and of course red hat and canonical have become microsoft's vassals |
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| 02:15.02 | golinux | TwistedFate: Was wondering if you had any commitment to Devuan |
| 02:15.23 | golinux | Running on metal or playing in a vm? |
| 02:15.43 | nextime | is running ~ 90 devuan machines |
| 02:16.02 | TwistedFate | golinux, i am using it on my machine, dual boot though |
| 02:16.12 | golinux | With? |
| 02:16.25 | TwistedFate | windows 8.1 pro |
| 02:16.25 | nextime | ( only one jessie, all the rest ceres ) |
| 02:16.50 | golinux | (nextime likes to live on the edge) |
| 02:17.02 | robert-e | Off topic, but rrq has a start on a vdev man page..if anyone has some examples of usage to include, could then send them to the mail list and I will include them? Thanks. |
| 02:17.20 | TwistedFate | nextime, that is a lot of machines, good work. |
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| 02:17.38 | nextime | golinux: : i was used to sid back in debian times |
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| 02:18.18 | golinux | stays on stable past EOL |
| 02:18.35 | MinceR | does so too |
| 02:18.43 | nextime | TwistedFate: ALL my machines have beenupgraded from debian to devuan even before the release of the first alpha |
| 02:18.46 | nextime | :) |
| 02:19.09 | TwistedFate | i like the stability of devuan jessie but i am starting to think that the ceres might have been a better option for my needs |
| 02:19.50 | nextime | i must say that i use ceres also in production servers |
| 02:20.02 | nextime | and also all my devuan related servers are devuan ceres too |
| 02:20.31 | nextime | ( the one where the repository and amprolla is running, the one of the web site and so on, they are all o ceres ) |
| 02:23.24 | TwistedFate | time to get some rest, good night my dear rebels! :) |
| 02:25.02 | configX | Nice lab, nextime. Just checked it out. |
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| 02:31.29 | nextime | thanks |
| 02:32.54 | golinux | nextime: Just saw your note about iridium browser |
| 02:33.36 | golinux | Looks interesting |
| 02:35.31 | configX | golinux, I may have to try that too |
| 02:37.37 | golinux | I'll wait for it to get into devuan repos. |
| 02:38.16 | configX | Is it planned? Unfortunately it looks like we would have to build it manually otherwise |
| 02:38.24 | golinux | G'nite |
| 02:38.46 | configX | Goodnight |
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| 03:43.20 | rrq | fwiw, I patched dimkr's stub with the 40 functions, new since 2014, and made it into a stub that p8o functions well with. Obvioulsy I'll miss out on all the educational log messages, but I can hear the mplayer sound as if nothing was changed. |
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| 07:41.54 | premoboss | how much more before to have devuan 1.0 stable? |
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| 11:19.05 | spygrid | How is devuan doing? |
| 11:19.22 | spygrid | besides the iso not working properly as a repo |
| 11:19.39 | spygrid | due to signature error |
| 11:19.58 | spygrid | and no new release ? |
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| 11:50.21 | jaromil | pretty well, lots of work on the backend |
| 11:50.40 | jaromil | which never stopped working :^) just learning from a few hoops |
| 11:53.52 | jaromil | BTW I am preparing a public speech about the status of Devuan, along with a bigger update, for the FSCONS on 12 November https://frab.fscons.org/en/fscons16/public/events/282 (Free Society Conference and Nordic Summit) |
| 11:54.59 | jaromil | hopefully that will give an exhaustive overview and also leave some space for questions (FSCONS is well participated by experts so I expect questions to be sharp and to the point) |
| 11:55.09 | jaromil | AFAIK there will be a recording, perhaps also a live stream |
| 11:56.37 | jaromil | meanwhile, we are all eating our dogfood and noone is getting fat it seems :^) metabolism takes a while to be understood eheheh |
| 11:58.16 | OmegaPhil | gets diabetes |
| 11:58.52 | jaromil | hey cmon we aren't adding any sugar, cant blame us rly |
| 12:02.00 | spygrid | long live #devuan.... death to systemd |
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| 13:02.34 | MinceR | diabeetus |
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| 13:12.42 | aitor | jaromil, a conference in november about devuan? |
| 13:12.46 | aitor | where? |
| 13:13.06 | aitor | https://frab.fscons.org/en/fscons16/public/schedule/0 |
| 13:15.07 | aitor | in which country? |
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| 13:21.37 | CasperVector | Hello #devuan, has the `backports' repositories been devuan-ised now? |
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| 13:26.18 | aitor | i don't know, i don't use backports |
| 13:27.21 | aitor | i have to reboot the system, see you later |
| 13:27.46 | nextime | spygrid: which signature error? |
| 13:27.51 | nextime | is there a bug open about it? |
| 13:30.21 | spygrid | singature error was apt-get would not accept any packages from my local repo, due to this signature error, I did not check for a bugh |
| 13:30.25 | spygrid | bug |
| 13:31.01 | spygrid | I tried importinng the debian9. pgp keys, of course that didnt work |
| 13:31.03 | spygrid | debian8] |
| 13:31.53 | nextime | spygrid: if you have a local repo you should import the key of your local repo |
| 13:31.58 | nextime | not the debian keys |
| 13:32.31 | nextime | and please, we are in beta, this would mean that anyone find a bug should open an issue so we can fix it |
| 13:32.42 | nextime | we cannot fix something we are not awere of |
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| 13:34.09 | spygrid | sure, tomorow i will squak about it, whats your name ? |
| 13:35.56 | CasperVector | aitor: I remember dev1fanboy's doc saying `backports' repos were not devuanised. Also attempting to install a certain package resulted in warning about conflicts; but the same thing did not happen when I enabled jessie-backports just now :| |
| 13:37.25 | nextime | spygrid: I'm "Franco Lanza", but it doesn't matter, if you want to refer to me, @nextime on gitlab will do |
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| 13:39.08 | aitor | CasperVector: yes, of course |
| 13:39.13 | spygrid | nice to know you Franco, i'll help out tomrow, goodnight |
| 13:40.01 | aitor | using backports solves some dependency problems if you want to use a more modern package |
| 13:41.50 | aitor | but i prefer not to use them, with the exception of some cases (for example, slim) |
| 13:41.55 | CasperVector | aitor: Actually I mean attampting to install pkg::backports caused conflicts several months ago, but now it seems to work... |
| 13:43.21 | aitor | Mmmh..., i'll consider this option for gnuinos openbox |
| 13:44.03 | CasperVector | aitor: :) |
| 13:44.09 | aitor | that would allow me to use linux-4.8 |
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| 13:44.43 | aitor | i'm a stubborn :) |
| 13:46.19 | aitor | 15:45 and i have no eaten yet :( |
| 13:46.25 | aitor | see you |
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| 13:56.05 | premoboss | im am doinf istallation of devuna beta for x86. i want to install bare CLI and later add GUI. i prefere lxde, i ask if it is present and stable in devuan |
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| 14:48.39 | nextime | premoboss: it's in devuan repos, and "shoould work" but it's not intensively tested actually, so, it's not guarantee it will not try to grab some systemd-something dependency, as in devuan is just a 1:1 packages with debian lxde at the moment |
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| 14:49.05 | premoboss | ok |
| 14:49.20 | nextime | so, please try it, and eventually report us any issue |
| 14:49.26 | premoboss | im installing it righrt now. i will report in case of malfuncion |
| 14:49.37 | nextime | it will be a precious contribute as we are in beta and we need people try things and report bugs |
| 14:49.41 | nextime | :) |
| 14:49.57 | premoboss | relly urge to see 1.0 stable to wipe out all debian machines i have |
| 14:50.26 | muep_ | you do not really have to wait for someone to say that it is now 1.0 |
| 14:50.45 | nextime | premoboss: we are working towards it and any issue reported help us to get close to it |
| 14:50.55 | premoboss | i am a "classic" user, in NEED to see "stable" printet somewhere :-) |
| 14:51.06 | premoboss | printed* |
| 14:52.03 | premoboss | qeustrion: if lxde need systemd-something but systemd is NOT present in devuan, so lxde will be broked, tight? |
| 14:52.07 | premoboss | right?* |
| 14:52.32 | nextime | REQUEST FOR HELP: if anyone would like to contribute to devuan and has rest API automation experience and is proficient in any interpreted language that can run on linux |
| 14:53.04 | nextime | we are searching someone to write a migration script to migrate whole things, repos, issues, wikis, groups and so on from gitlab to gogs |
| 14:53.56 | muep_ | premoboss: there might be some broken features, but it would likely still mostly work. but of course it would depend on how exactly lxde needed some systemd item |
| 14:54.02 | nextime | premoboss: probably not, as we actually only ban systemd and systemd-sysv packages, other systemd-things are present in our repo to avoid to broke systems until we are sure we can get rid of it |
| 14:55.03 | nextime | we would love to ban all systemd related packages as soon as possible, but as we are VUA we know that remain conservative is a precious thing for users and admins |
| 14:55.09 | premoboss | nextime, do you mean that devuan is still not "purified" from systemd? |
| 14:55.13 | nextime | so, we try to be as conservative and carefull we can |
| 14:55.31 | premoboss | what does mean "VUA"? |
| 14:55.37 | nextime | premoboss: yes, i mean that, it's not yet totally purified, this is why we are in beta and not at release state |
| 14:55.49 | premoboss | ok got it |
| 14:56.00 | nextime | premoboss: VUA stands for "Veteran Unix Admins", the name of the informal group that started devuan project |
| 14:56.11 | premoboss | ok |
| 15:05.03 | muep_ | mostly just curious, but do any of the popular configuration management tools like ansible, puppet, salt and suchlike work well with devuan? |
| 15:05.54 | lunacat7 | o_O |
| 15:05.55 | muep_ | I've been trying it a bit with ansible and it does not seem to always detect that it could well use its existing debian-specific code paths |
| 15:06.09 | lunacat7 | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:09.04 | Leander256 | I tried salt a bit and it seemed able to use the package manager correctly |
| 15:09.28 | muep_ | e.g. here with the version of ansible that devuan ships in its repos, the variables beginning with ansible_distribution are basically empty http://hastebin.com/nalixecuru.scala |
| 15:10.54 | muep_ | though an admin using ansible is quite unlikely to use exactly that version. it would need to get fixed in whatever version the admin uses |
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| 15:16.38 | nextime | muep_: as a common rule, if anything works with debian you can usually assume it works in devuan too |
| 15:17.35 | nextime | and if it doesn't work in debian, if anyone will point us at it, we will make it work on devuan :) |
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| 15:23.18 | premoboss | lxde installed ok. removd clipit. now installing libreoffice. |
| 15:25.21 | nextime | io that's great |
| 15:25.30 | nextime | s/io\ //g |
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| 16:31.10 | premoboss | someone will package dowse for devuan? more general, there will be packager in devian that there will be no in debina? will devuan evolve to diverge from debian massively? |
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| 17:10.56 | premoboss | hi. i compiled dowse. run ./start.sh. many error came: error ld.so object '/usr/lib/x86_64-lib-gnu/libjemalloc.so.1' from LD_PRELOAD cannot be preloaded (canot ope shared object file): ignored. my system is 32bit, not 64. htop report /udsr/locsl/dowse/bin/webui is running, tskr s lot of cpu (i hsvr s old monocore). |
| 17:16.13 | premoboss | i open firefox on 127.0.0.1 and i see 2 lsbrl "thing found" and "statistics". i click on things found but nothing happens |
| 17:16.39 | premoboss | what i do wrong? |
| 17:22.21 | Akuli | did you install the dependencies? |
| 17:22.49 | premoboss | all. |
| 17:22.54 | premoboss | ah i reading readme... |
| 17:23.12 | Akuli | the git commands are a bit screwed up on the readme |
| 17:23.23 | Akuli | if you're viewing it on github |
| 17:23.42 | premoboss | ok i did /usr/dowse/build/bin/dowse-to-gource | gource --log-format custom - |
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| 17:24.19 | premoboss | i gitted the source |
| 17:24.55 | premoboss | i grt "connecting to redis on 127.0.0.1 port 6379 but no more came after thuis |
| 17:25.58 | premoboss | mmm |
| 17:26.37 | premoboss | if i run geurce salone i see some "colored balls" going around but if i run firefox i don see more palls |
| 17:38.06 | jaromil | premoboss: dowse is a project using devuan as a base, it will release arch specific images ready for install when its ready for beta, likely in a couple weeks |
| 17:38.36 | premoboss | ciao jaromil :-) ok aspettero'. |
| 17:38.42 | jaromil | we have a channel for it on irc.dyne.org #dowse |
| 17:39.05 | premoboss | for now on my machine devuan is ok. |
| 17:39.14 | premoboss | i will report bugs if i will find. |
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| 17:48.44 | mlsmith | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:52.34 | golinux | One reason I think I remember is that gitlab ci can't be disabled |
| 17:54.14 | mlsmith | Ah ok, that makes sense |
| 17:55.37 | mlsmith | golinux: this is Mike by the way |
| 17:56.24 | golinux | mlsmith: Yes, I know that ;) |
| 17:56.51 | mlsmith | Geez, nothing gets past you |
| 17:57.02 | golinux | gitlab is also going down a road of less user choice in other areas. |
| 17:57.14 | Vall | Hello everyone. How do I install this under Refracta? https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/zfs-linux |
| 17:57.35 | Vall | It doesn't show up on "apt-cache search zfs", even after a "apt-get update"... |
| 17:57.40 | Vall | Shouldn't it? |
| 17:57.49 | mlsmith | I guess they are getting cocky now that they are gaining ground on github |
| 17:58.25 | golinux | The gitlab news is depressing. They are now on the GitLab World Tour |
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| 18:00.43 | golinux | Vall: Seems I m=remember something about zfs on the refracta forum but a search just came up dry. |
| 18:01.22 | Vall | thanks anyway for trying to help, golinux. |
| 18:01.25 | golinux | You might want to poke around there with some better keywords |
| 18:01.48 | Vall | My question transcends zfs. What I want to know is, how to enable installation from Debian repos? |
| 18:02.12 | Vall | On Devuan generally, not necessarily Refracta. |
| 18:05.43 | golinux | mlsmith: Yes, nothing much gets past me. I have spent many hours in musty administrative docs. ;) |
| 18:08.10 | jaromil | i still have fingers crossed for gitlab. the founder is dutch and we can connect locally over common friends if he ever gets back over here. after our 1.0 release the size of our project will become evident and we'll be able to negotiate some community deal perhaps, to shield us from the silicon-valley driven commercial path gitlab has taken lately |
| 18:09.05 | jaromil | else, we'll migrate, no big deal. someone should re-brand silicon-valley as the place where open source community projects go die |
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| 18:17.26 | Vall | jaromil, golinux, mlsmith: what prevents us from opening another github? Isn't all source code public? |
| 18:18.50 | jaromil | Vall: the Devuan community at large already expressed its opinion on the matter, there is no consensus on using github (which is a proprietary third party platform). I speak as somoene who wasn't against, yet noting there wasn't consensus. It became more evident with time, that this was a wise choice, since Devuan is way bigger than what a "group" on github can offer |
| 18:19.40 | Vall | I did not know github was proprietary. This is definitely Not Good (TM). |
| 18:20.03 | Vall | What was the opinion of the Devuan Community at Large, if I may ask? |
| 18:20.12 | Vall | (sorry for being so disinformed) |
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| 18:26.00 | mlsmith | jaromil, that's a sad truth about silicon valley |
| 18:27.09 | golinux | That's the sad truth about predatory capitalism |
| 18:28.38 | Vall | golinux: to paraphrase Winston Churchill, capitalism is absolutely the worst economic system... except for all the others that have been tried until now ;-) |
| 18:28.51 | Vall | But I get your point, it doesn't have to be "predatory" |
| 18:29.42 | mlsmith | That's it, I'm going off the grid and taking the Internet with me. Sorry, folks. |
| 18:29.53 | Vall | mlsmith: LOL |
| 18:29.56 | golinux | WTF? |
| 18:30.25 | mlsmith | Wow golinux...I haven't seen you use hard acronyms before. |
| 18:30.31 | mlsmith | harsh* |
| 18:30.43 | golinux | I have my moments. ;) |
| 18:31.46 | golinux | I think I get what you were saying now . . . |
| 18:31.53 | mlsmith | lol |
| 18:32.06 | golinux | Anyway this is OT for #devuan |
| 18:32.47 | mlsmith | ok, fine. Boss lady has spoken. |
| 18:35.29 | golinux | You can move over to #debianfork |
| 18:35.44 | mlsmith | I did :-) |
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| 18:47.57 | Vall | Repeating in case someone haven't seen it yet: how to enable installation from standard Debian repos? For example, I want to install this, but it doesn't show up under Devuan: https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/zfs-linux |
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| 18:50.36 | Lydia_K | Vall: I think the opinions on using github are as varied as members ofthe devuan community themselves. |
| 18:51.31 | cyteen | Vall: zfs is moving from zfsonlinux packages to debian maintained packages. The move happens in stretch/sid and reflected in ascii/ceres. The important bit for a usable zfs is that zfs-dkms can see a matching spl-dkms source in /usr/src. The most common error in the building of zfs-dkms is that it says it can't find spl source. As of yesterday this was the case for stretch/ascii. It usually sorts itself out eventually. |
| 18:52.43 | Vall | Thank you cyteen, Lydia_K. |
| 18:52.57 | Vall | So I should just move to Ascii? |
| 18:56.18 | cyteen | Vall: At them moment I try to stable and add ascii repo to sources.list only to install needed packages (that work) and then take them out again. Pretty much what I'd for debian. If you've looked at the script from the other day you must add contrib to the sources.list as well for zfs not from zfsonlinux |
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| 18:59.29 | Vall | cyteen: good idea! |
| 19:00.11 | Vall | I'm somewhat of a novice in Debian, having run RHEL almost exclusively for the last 12 years or so... |
| 19:00.36 | Vall | cyteen: what do I need to add to /etc/apt/sources.list to enable ascii repos? |
| 19:01.32 | cyteen | echo "deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ ascii main contrib non-free" > /etc/apt/sources.list.d/ascii-devuan.list |
| 19:01.49 | Vall | perfect. |
| 19:01.50 | cyteen | echo "deb-src http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged ascii main contrib non-free" >> /etc/apt/sources.list.d/ascii-devuan.list |
| 19:02.05 | Vall | Best to put it into a separate file in /etc/apt/sources-list.d/* ? |
| 19:02.11 | Vall | ah |
| 19:02.16 | Vall | you already did that ;-) |
| 19:02.27 | Vall | Then, to deactivate, just open the files and comment all lines, right? |
| 19:04.36 | cyteen | Thats my preferences, but then I always get bitten by changes to /etc/apt/sources.list. Comment out the lines, easy, or move the contents of /etc/apt/sources.list.d to /etc/apt/sources.list-available and symlink, then you can delete the symlink and still have a file to link to next time you need.(a bit overly elaborate) |
| 19:08.49 | Vall | Thanks cyteen! |
| 19:10.42 | cyteen | Vall: and for zfs-dkms in ascii, it's not building from me atm |
| 19:10.55 | Vall | I don't like DKMS at all. |
| 19:11.22 | Vall | I'm much more for compiling the stuff directly, if possible. |
| 19:11.25 | Vall | Is it? |
| 19:12.10 | Vall | (I mean, making the modules available under /lib/modules/xxx, then regenerating the initrd disks with mkinitrd)? |
| 19:16.30 | cyteen | You may have more luck with that approach, once I got a stable zfs install I moved on to the next thing to rescue from the previous install. I only really need the ascii version for 4.x kernels atm which can wait. |
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| 19:33.03 | ansabhailte | hello |
| 19:33.28 | ansabhailte | Is anybody on? |
| 19:34.29 | Gup | somebody |
| 19:35.00 | ansabhailte | I was told to come here |
| 19:35.14 | ansabhailte | basically I want to install Devuan on my chromebook |
| 19:35.33 | ansabhailte | parazyd(?) is working on the ARM branch? |
| 19:36.02 | ansabhailte | Also is this channel English, because I know the Devuan devs are Italian |
| 19:36.10 | mlsmith | ansabhailte, is your chromebook definitely ARM? |
| 19:36.38 | mlsmith | Only curious because I have one too but it's a celeron |
| 19:36.43 | ansabhailte | yes. its the flip c100p |
| 19:36.48 | mlsmith | Oh ok |
| 19:37.00 | ansabhailte | I even verified that it's the same as the c201 and a user on reddit had flashed to this one as well |
| 19:37.15 | ansabhailte | its the RK3288 chip |
| 19:37.35 | ansabhailte | also Im having a little issue with libreboot if anybody knows about that |
| 19:38.46 | Vall | cyteen: what about zfs-initramfs? Does it do what I want? |
| 19:39.08 | cyteen | yup |
| 19:39.42 | cyteen | kernel panic on reboot without it. |
| 19:40.02 | mlsmith | ansabhailte, sorry I don't have much experience with either either libreboot or arm. Was libreboot on by default? I'm stick with coreboot |
| 19:40.18 | ansabhailte | coreboot was default, I flashed libreboot successfully |
| 19:40.34 | ansabhailte | but it wont boot to chromeos now. not sure why |
| 19:40.45 | ansabhailte | and nobody seems to be on #libreboot right now |
| 19:40.59 | Vall | cyteen: thanks! |
| 19:41.21 | Vall | Installing zfs-initramfs, getting the following messages during install: |
| 19:41.24 | Vall | Loading new spl-0.6.5.8 DKMS files... |
| 19:41.24 | Vall | /etc/lsb-release: line 2: Devuan: command not found |
| 19:41.24 | Vall | First Installation: checking all kernels... |
| 19:41.24 | Vall | Building only for 3.16.0-4-amd64 |
| 19:41.24 | Vall | /etc/lsb-release: line 2: Devuan: command not found |
| 19:41.26 | Vall | Building initial module for 3.16.0-4-amd64 |
| 19:41.26 | Vall | /etc/lsb-release: line 2: Devuan: command not found |
| 19:42.01 | Vall | looks like /etc/lsb-release is b0rked... |
| 19:44.58 | cyteen | I remember a problem with the use of spaces in the release string |
| 19:45.30 | mlsmith | ansabhailte, sorry I can't help with that |
| 19:47.04 | ansabhailte | Does anybody know when parazyd usually gets on? |
| 19:47.08 | ansabhailte | I was told to talk to him |
| 19:47.46 | golinux | He's on but not present atm |
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| 19:48.37 | ansabhailte | gotcha. I need his help with ARM |
| 19:49.09 | golinux | parazyd: ^^^ |
| 19:49.25 | ansabhailte | another devuan dev told me parazyd has been working on a devuan image for arm notebooks |
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| 19:55.46 | golinux | ansabhailte: Did you see these? https://files.devuan.org/devuan_jessie_beta/testing/ |
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| 19:59.33 | Vall | Humrmrmr |
| 19:59.50 | Vall | apt-get install zfs-initramfs failed here. |
| 19:59.53 | Vall | configure: error: |
| 19:59.53 | Vall | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:59.53 | Vall | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:59.53 | Vall | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:59.53 | Vall | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:59.53 | Vall | Error! Bad return status for module build on kernel: 3.16.0-4-amd64 (x86_64) |
| 20:00.20 | Vall | I would have said that the spl kmod should have been installed along with ZFS itself... |
| 20:03.05 | Vall | Humrmrmr... perhaps Devuan is not so ready for use on standalone servers as I thought... ZFS On Linux is essential in these circumstances ;-/ |
| 20:03.40 | Vall | Well, no prob, will keep running it on my VMs ;-) |
| 20:04.27 | cyteen | Yup thats what I get using dkms, the sources of spl and zfs or miss matched (I think thats the error). This is an error in the debian up stream rather than just devuan. |
| 20:05.04 | Vall | cyteen :-/ |
| 20:05.09 | Vall | This sucks :-/ |
| 20:05.48 | cyteen | I'm giving a build a try now in a container just to check. |
| 20:06.42 | Vall | cyteen: container.... OpenVZ or LXC or Docker or... ? |
| 20:06.56 | cyteen | this was the reason I used the zfsonlinux repo with stable and stayed with 3.x kernel. Docker |
| 20:07.08 | Vall | Good experiences with Docker? |
| 20:07.42 | Vall | I've been using hardware-based, traditional VMs so far, but want to start playing with containerization on Linux |
| 20:07.54 | Vall | Been trying to decide between OpenVZ and Docker. |
| 20:08.14 | Vall | OpenVZ seems to be much more traditional and well-established |
| 20:09.24 | Vall | But it seems Docker has all the attention nowadays... and specifically I want to install this, which apparently won't run without Docker: http://community.open365.io/ |
| 20:11.10 | cyteen | Not sure how to answer that one, not a fan as such but really but has its uses. |
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| 20:13.55 | Vall | cyteen: Have you tried OpenVZ and Docker and prefered Docker? Or have you preferred docker for some other reason? |
| 20:14.16 | Vall | cyteen: but anyway, Docker is running OK for your use cases? |
| 20:17.23 | cyteen | No, nothing to compare it with, I'm still converting projects to the docker way and none really stress it. The zfs was to test the docker zfs backend (which has a little gotya on reboot) so really its testing at the moment. |
| 20:20.12 | Vall | Thanks for the tips cyteen |
| 20:20.18 | Vall | much appreciated. |
| 20:20.35 | Vall | I think I'm going to install Devuan plus Docker in a VM here, to see how it goes. |
| 20:20.57 | Vall | If it works OK, will move it to a remote VPS for testing. |
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| 20:59.22 | ansabhailte | parazyd you on? |
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| 21:09.47 | k0nsl | golinux: My Devuan mirror was down unexpectedly but is now back to normal again. Now there should be no issues. http://devuan.mirror.k0nsl.org/ |
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| 21:12.37 | aitor | hi |
| 21:14.36 | golinux | k0nsl: OK. No reports came in on this channel that the mirror was down. Glad you're back up. |
| 21:15.28 | aitor | appearently the FSCONS X 2016 will be in Sweden |
| 21:19.19 | aitor | is Robert Storey the great scripter robert-e? |
| 21:21.10 | aitor | silence... |
| 21:26.41 | aitor | ? |
| 21:27.23 | rrq | I believe them (him?) to be distinct individuals |
| 21:30.31 | rrq | nextime: woke up and saw your "REQUEST". please pm me, say 10h from now(?) |
| 21:30.48 | rrq | or make it 12h perhaps |
| 21:30.58 | aitor | i'm mistaken again |
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| 21:33.34 | aitor | rrq: i did some changes in vdev-initramfs |
| 21:34.08 | aitor | oh, rrq has quit |
| 21:36.30 | nextime | rrq i'm really busy right now |
| 21:36.40 | nextime | ops |
| 21:36.44 | nextime | yes, quitted. |
| 21:36.54 | aitor | rrq is asleep |
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| 21:39.51 | aitor | e has joined #devuan |
| 21:39.58 | aitor | epsilon? |
| 21:43.49 | aitor | bedtime, see you tomorrow :) |
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| 22:48.38 | ansabhailte | parazyd are you online? |
| 22:49.50 | golinux | ansabhailte: Did you see the link I posted for you above? |
| 22:51.49 | golinux | He's probably asleep now |
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| 23:15.53 | nextime | rebooting git.devuan.org |
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