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| 01:29.25 | robert-e | rrq: Whenever you are ready, let me know, and I will install a fresh devuan, and update it, before doing any testing. That might help with debug. |
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| 01:50.17 | rrq | thanks, will do. |
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| 02:48.07 | minnesotags | Oh crap. Either ceph-deploy or ceph itself has a dependency on systemctl and systemd..... GRRRRRRR |
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| 02:57.23 | furrywolf | according to their web page, it's a RedHat product. |
| 02:57.55 | furrywolf | depending on systemd is thus entirely unsurprising. |
| 03:03.31 | pydsigner | Go Red Hat, making software worse and getting paid to do it! |
| 04:01.34 | minnesotags | furrywolf: they can claim it is a "redhat product" but they claim the same thing about a lot of opensource projects. |
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| 04:16.03 | MinceR | perhaps there's an older version that doesn't depend on systemd and can be forked (and possibly merged with newer changes) |
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| 08:58.39 | gnu_srs | <PROTECTED> |
| 08:58.51 | gnu_srs | stevelitt ^^ |
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| 09:16.11 | detha | Unix has many IPC primitives. Long before dbus existed, I perfectly well managed to get control systems consisting of 5 or 6 daemons, all dependent on each other in various baroque ways, to reliably start using just those. |
| 09:16.16 | hellekin | gnu_srs: what if you don't have/use DBus? |
| 09:17.03 | detha | ^ |
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| 09:21.04 | hellekin | detha: that was rethorical. Systemd people tend to forget the rest of the world with amazing speed. |
| 09:22.29 | hellekin | but wait, we're not on #debianfork :P |
| 09:25.28 | gnu_srs | It's an ongoing discussion in the Clusterlabs mailing list. I would like to email them about alternatives: Are there any, like s6, runit,? |
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| 12:43.47 | sixwheeledbeast | upstart? |
| 13:15.06 | gnu_srs | Not a PID1 solution, preferably! |
| 13:21.47 | sixwheeledbeast | upstart isn't "PID 1 solution" is it? |
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| 14:40.35 | Lydia_K | Why do people still care about non-serial service starting? Who reboots their computer that much that it matters? I suspend my laptop, I barely ever reboot my desktops, and even far less often do I reboot servers! With SSD drives serial booting services is so blazingly fast why does it matter? and with servers the damn post and self-checks take 100 times longer than the OS anyway! |
| 14:40.54 | Lydia_K | I don't understand why people think so much effort to save two or three seconds, is really such a big deal. |
| 14:41.07 | MinceR | >Who reboots their computer that much that it matters? |
| 14:41.10 | MinceR | people who run systemd |
| 14:41.15 | MinceR | because it fucks up all the time |
| 14:41.19 | Lydia_K | LOL |
| 14:41.35 | Lydia_K | It boggles my mind. |
| 14:42.39 | Lydia_K | Seriously, I built a box with an SSD recently for a product we've been building, it's running devuan of course, and I was all ready to quiet/cover the boot messages, then the damn thing booted so fast I could barely see them anyway! They like blinked for a second! |
| 14:42.49 | Lydia_K | It wasn't worth bothering to cover with a graphic. |
| 14:43.07 | Lydia_K | The damned projector wouldn't warm up fast enough anyway. |
| 14:43.20 | Lydia_K | boot time? what boot time!? |
| 14:45.39 | Lydia_K | I dunno, I care more about servers anyway, and anyone who works on real hardawre knows that they take ages to post and self check and initialize raid controllers and HBAs and whatever else, 95% of boot time is long before you even get to a bootloader. |
| 14:45.54 | Lydia_K | I'm ranting in the wrong channel, sorry. |
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| 14:55.07 | sixwheeledbeast | with running in PID 1 when systemd is updated it ideally needs a reboot, hence needing serial service starting requirement :) |
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| 15:07.22 | topro | Lydia_K: you only see desktop pc use case. but there are for example battery powered embedded devices where boot time really matters, and in those cases every single second you can save off boot time can do the trick |
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| 15:20.46 | Lydia_K | topro: That's a good arguement for a niche case! |
| 15:21.11 | Lydia_K | Of course, I'm not talking just desktops, I'm mostly focused on servers, where boot time is irrelevent really. |
| 15:22.06 | topro | You're right, with servers those couple of seconds does not matter at all. but by the way, I always hate to wait those seconds in front of my desktop pc ;) |
| 15:23.38 | Lydia_K | I don't know why you'd be rebooting your desktop so much that you'd even notice. |
| 15:24.18 | Lydia_K | Unless there is a kernel upgrade that I really need for some reason, I pretty much reboot about once a year, or "when my power goes out" |
| 15:30.41 | topro | Lydia_K: i prefer not to waste energy for running my desktop pc 24/7. thats what i have servers for |
| 15:31.14 | Lydia_K | I'm actually all laptop now, I have a tower, but I don't think it even has a drive in it, it's basically an end table right now, and it's super old. |
| 15:31.17 | Lydia_K | Nice case though. |
| 15:31.38 | Lydia_K | I leave my laptops on all the time, and when I do "shut them down" I suspend them. |
| 15:32.05 | Lydia_K | I should really stop being lazy and configure my laptop to auto-suspend when has low power, but eh.. that's like a once a year event. |
| 15:32.40 | Lydia_K | I''m always annoyed at the time, but never do anything about it. |
| 15:33.09 | topro | you know that resuming from disk on a 16 or 32gb machine would take considerably more time that straight booting with modern init (which IMHO is not systemd to make that clear) |
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| 15:34.17 | Lydia_K | Yeah but then I lose my entire environment |
| 15:34.40 | Lydia_K | I want my 16 workspaces and all my terminals right where I left them. |
| 15:34.53 | topro | well, thats another story then... |
| 15:35.11 | Lydia_K | My screen sessions with collections of terminals all relating to something I'm working on. |
| 15:35.13 | topro | maybe the job of a good DE? |
| 15:35.20 | Lydia_K | I hate DEs :D |
| 15:35.25 | Lydia_K | Openbox! |
| 15:35.28 | Lydia_K | <3 |
| 15:35.45 | topro | maybe reconsider |
| 15:35.51 | topro | with what you expect |
| 15:36.08 | topro | anyway, gotta leave, cu |
| 15:36.13 | Lydia_K | besides, even opening terminals and putting them in the right places doesn't do the same thing as giving me the terminals in the proper directories with the proper historys and so on. |
| 15:36.28 | Lydia_K | suspend works exactly as I expect :) |
| 15:36.30 | Lydia_K | anyway, later |
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| 15:36.50 | topro | thats true, but as i said, thats another story than asking who bothers about boot time, right? |
| 15:36.57 | topro | bb |
| 15:37.11 | Lydia_K | We got off track there. |
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| 16:51.07 | jotik | Help! I want to upgrade from Debian Wheezy to Devuan Jessie, but when trying to `apt-get install devuan-keyring -y` I get "WARNING: The following packages cannot be authenticated!" and it wont install. |
| 16:53.30 | jotik | What should I do? |
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| 17:23.04 | stevelitt | gnu_srs, you mentioned "Is this true? The systemd folks are telling us that the only real way reliably synchronously start a service is by watching DBus, which suggests that a shell based approach is doomed to fail." |
| 17:23.43 | stevelitt | gnu_srs, I don't even know what they mean by "synchronously start a service." |
| 17:25.53 | stevelitt | It sounds like a bunch of systemd buzzword soundbyte gobblety gook to me. |
| 17:35.48 | stevelitt | I've never seen an official definition of Socket Activation except for https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.socket.html, which appears to be a reimplementation/complexification of the old xinetd. And yet every systemd fanboy shouts from the rooftops about Socket Activation. |
| 17:37.45 | stevelitt | What I *do* know is you can fire up pretty much any combination of services you want via runit, s6, Epoch or sysvinit, and typically do it in less than 10 seconds. |
| 17:38.20 | stevelitt | So the fanboiz will need to prove to me why this so-called "synchronously start a service" is of such show-stopping import. |
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| 17:39.52 | stevelitt | gnu_srs, exactly where did you read the systemd fanboiz are telling you this stuff? Do you have a URL? I'd like to examine it. |
| 17:40.31 | jotik | ohwell, switching back to Debian Wheezy for now. |
| 17:40.46 | fsmithred | jotik, it's normal to get that warning |
| 17:40.49 | stevelitt | jotik, have you tried Devuan? |
| 17:41.10 | fsmithred | stevelitt, he got as far as the warning that they keyring can't be authenticated |
| 17:41.11 | stevelitt | LOL, forget my last question. |
| 17:41.27 | stevelitt | he also says he can't install. |
| 17:41.53 | fsmithred | jotik, upgrade from wheezy to devuan jessie is very easy |
| 17:42.01 | fsmithred | except if you're running gnome |
| 17:42.13 | fsmithred | then you can expect a gnome cataclysm |
| 17:42.37 | jotik | fsmithred: Is there no debian-keyring-signed devuan-keyring package? |
| 17:42.50 | fsmithred | lol, no |
| 17:43.01 | jotik | So there's no secure upgrade path? |
| 17:43.08 | fsmithred | hang on |
| 17:45.27 | fsmithred | how do you do that with debian? |
| 17:45.31 | fsmithred | or any distro? |
| 17:45.56 | jotik | Well Gentoo has GPG-signed portage snapshots. |
| 17:46.10 | stevelitt | jotik, have you considered a backup, then a clean Devuan install, and then copy relevant data files back to the new installation? |
| 17:46.57 | stevelitt | That way you wouldn't need Debian to authenticate Devuan packages. |
| 17:47.24 | jotik | stevelitt: ok, but the secure key distribution problem remains. |
| 17:47.50 | jotik | I'm sorry to be so pedantic and paranoid... :) |
| 17:47.51 | stevelitt | jotik, how so? The Devuan install knows its own keys. |
| 17:48.03 | jotik | I don't know its keys. |
| 17:48.15 | stevelitt | jotik, I'm with the NSA, so I appeciate your paranois. |
| 17:48.37 | stevelitt | jotik, can you do hardware assisted virtual machines on your current computer? |
| 17:49.13 | jotik | how would that help? |
| 17:50.09 | stevelitt | If you had hardware assisted virtual machines, you could clean install Devuan Jessie on a virtual machine, and verify that keys aren't a problem. It would take about 25 minutes. |
| 17:50.38 | jotik | I think you slightly misunderstand the problem. |
| 17:51.04 | stevelitt | jotik, probably I did misunderstand it. |
| 17:51.47 | stevelitt | Ahhh, I think I understand your problem. Hang tough for a moment... |
| 17:51.52 | jotik | I have a set of trusted keys, such as the debian-keyring on my current setup. |
| 17:52.16 | jotik | I want the devuan keys, cryptographically signed with something I trust. |
| 17:54.34 | jotik | I want a trusted and secure upgrade path from Debian Wheezy to Devuan Jessie, but there currently seems to be impossible. |
| 17:54.44 | jotik | s/there/it/ |
| 17:56.51 | stevelitt | jotik, we're discussing two different issues. |
| 17:57.13 | stevelitt | Issue 1: You already have a keyring, and want it to work on your new setup. |
| 17:57.25 | stevelitt | Issue 2: There's no secure upgrade path. |
| 17:57.41 | stevelitt | As far as issue 2, if you can't upgrade, just clean install and copy your data. |
| 17:58.36 | stevelitt | As far as issue 1, if, on Devuan Jessie, you could successfully `apt-get install devuan-keyring -y`, could you then copy your current keyring or make a new one and get what you need? |
| 17:58.55 | jotik | As well as your proposed workaround to Issue 2, I could as well blindly trust and install devuan-keyring. |
| 18:00.05 | stevelitt | jotik, is your desire to make sure the devuan-keyring package really comes from the official Devuan Jessie? |
| 18:00.23 | jotik | yes. |
| 18:00.30 | stevelitt | Ohhhhhhhhh |
| 18:00.54 | jotik | stevelitt: so for Issue 1, I'd still need a cryptographically verified install of Devuan for that. |
| 18:01.06 | stevelitt | If its md5sum were what the website says it should be ,would that satisfy you? |
| 18:01.13 | jotik | no |
| 18:01.54 | stevelitt | So then you want what, GPG with a cert from some trusted cert provider? |
| 18:02.41 | jotik | a devuan-keyring signed with a debian-keyring key would suffice. |
| 18:03.18 | stevelitt | I doubt that would ever happen. Why in the world would Debian vouch for Devuan? The projects aren't friends. |
| 18:03.33 | stevelitt | How did you initially install Debian? Who vouched for that? |
| 18:04.28 | stevelitt | fsmithred, or anyone else: Does Devuan have a cert from a cert authority? |
| 18:05.35 | jotik | The problem is, I'm connected to the internet via unsecure channels. |
| 18:05.46 | jotik | I probably need to wait until I travel a bit. |
| 18:06.02 | jotik | Sticking with Debian until then. |
| 18:06.23 | jotik | afk for a up to a hour. |
| 18:07.11 | stevelitt | jotik, I'd recommend you trustingly install Devuan Jessie on a simple Virtual Machine, just to learn about it prior to actually installing it where it matters. |
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| 18:22.41 | fsmithred | jotik, you want me to give you the fingerprint that the keyserver has for the devuan key? |
| 18:23.24 | fsmithred | the devuan key is just signed by itself |
| 18:25.00 | fsmithred | the debian jessie key is signed by itself and also by the debian wheezy key |
| 18:25.29 | fsmithred | don't know how far you could go back with that to find one signed only by itself |
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| 18:32.53 | stevelitt | fsmithred, if you anonomyously surf to Devuan's download page to find the installer md5sum, and then unanonomously surf to Devuan's download page and download the installer, and its md5sum matches, you've pretty much proven that your installer comes from Devuan, right? |
| 18:33.30 | stevelitt | From there, when you run the installer, does the installer do anything to guarantee that it's really downloading software from the real Devuan prepositories? |
| 18:33.55 | fsmithred | afaik, it checks the packages with the key |
| 18:34.12 | fsmithred | hence the desire to verify that the key is right |
| 18:34.16 | stevelitt | And the key comes from the installer with the right md5sum, right? |
| 18:34.45 | fsmithred | yeah, the only part I don't get is the anon vs. non-anon surf |
| 18:35.11 | fsmithred | if he's compromised, wouldn't he get directed to the fake site either way? |
| 18:35.18 | stevelitt | If you use that service that anonymizes you, I would think it would minimize the likelihood of a DNS slight-of-hand. |
| 18:35.45 | stevelitt | In other words, Devuan.Org resolving to the IP address for Badguys.ru |
| 18:36.17 | fsmithred | just for jotik, or for everyone? |
| 18:36.33 | stevelitt | General questoin, in cluding jotik . |
| 18:37.05 | fsmithred | for personal keys, you trade fingerprints in person, if possible |
| 18:37.31 | fsmithred | then you know who has control of the key, and you can sign each others' keys |
| 18:37.48 | fsmithred | second best is to see that the key is signed by someone else you know and trust |
| 18:37.56 | stevelitt | But this isn't a personal key. |
| 18:38.39 | fsmithred | yeah, so I don't get it |
| 18:38.47 | fsmithred | how can we trust the debian keys? |
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| 18:39.48 | fsmithred | is the fingerprint posted somewhere? |
| 18:40.00 | fsmithred | somewhere other than where the key is |
| 18:40.32 | fsmithred | I've always just taken the leap of faith when accepting repo keys |
| 18:41.55 | gnu_srs1 | stevelitt: I have now read your comments. If you give me some good arguments to why systemd is not the only solution, I can post them to the ML: Otherwise you can do that directly but maybe you have to subscribe to that ML yourself. |
| 18:42.13 | stevelitt | Which ml? |
| 18:42.18 | stevelitt | gnu_srs1, ^^^ |
| 18:42.54 | stevelitt | Also, I didn't give any arguments: I simply said why I don't give much credibility to statements like what they said. |
| 18:45.46 | gnu_srs1 | Anyway, the thread start is here: http://clusterlabs.org/pipermail/developers/2016-September/000338.html and the specific one is here: |
| 18:45.46 | gnu_srs1 | http://clusterlabs.org/pipermail/developers/2016-September/000347.html |
| 18:47.40 | gnu_srs1 | stevelitt: Maybe you should provide me/yourself with arguments to make a solid reply to the ML to that message ;) |
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| 18:48.43 | gnu_srs1 | I'm currently subscribed to that ML due to FTBFS issues on GNU/Hurd. |
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| 19:11.56 | stevelitt | gnu_srs1, I assume FTBFS means "fails to build from source", correct? |
| 19:12.21 | stevelitt | I've read the whole thread, I've read a little bit about Pacemaker and Clusterlabs. |
| 19:14.03 | stevelitt | The guy Andrew Beekhof was uttering pure heresay when he said "The systemd folks are telling us that the only real way reliably synchronously start a service is by watching DBus, which suggests that a shell based approach is doomed to fail." There is no indication that our friend Andrew knows the meaning of "syncronous start". |
| 19:15.03 | stevelitt | Pacemaker and Clusterlabs are primarily Red Hat software, meaning it's in their best interest to support systemd, further entangle things in systemd, and make their software more complex. |
| 19:16.01 | stevelitt | This thread seems to be between guys who say "do we really want to duplicate systemd complications in our own software?" vs the guys just chomping at the bit to bolt this software to systemd and dbus. |
| 19:16.40 | stevelitt | It actually parallels Debian's systemd wars, although because it's a Red Hat project, nobody's going to get down and dirty the way we anti-systemd people did during the war. |
| 19:17.40 | stevelitt | This thread has nothing to do with Devuan or any sane software: It's an internal thing to Clusterlabs (I'd rename it ClusterSomethingElse). |
| 19:19.28 | stevelitt | My best guess is that "only real way reliably synchronously start a service is by watching DBus" is a piece of systemd soundbyte talking point that is undefined, and even if it *were* defined, it could easily be proven false by doing whatever it is they're trying to do without systemd. |
| 19:20.18 | stevelitt | I also find it interesting that this Cluster$$$$ project is getting hoist by their own petard: systemd changes are making them substantially change both their implementation and their interface. |
| 19:20.48 | stevelitt | In summary, pay no attention: There's nothing to see there. |
| 19:21.49 | stevelitt | I just realized I'm on #devuan rather than #debianfork. Please post any responses on #debianfork so the developers have a clean communication channel. |
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| 19:50.22 | crhylove | Just got a funky bug. Installing as a VM under proxmox (3.4) assign memory 64mb - 2gb (auto expandable), and it hard crashes after the American English select option in the non-graphical install... |
| 19:50.36 | crhylove | netinstsall amd x64 Devuan beta 1. |
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| 20:18.01 | aitor | hi |
| 20:18.58 | aitor | i've been working on vdev today |
| 20:19.12 | aitor | this is what i get in live mode: |
| 20:19.14 | aitor | [end kernel panic - not syncing: Attempted to kill init! exit |
| 20:19.47 | aitor | i have an iso which works |
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| 20:25.49 | aitor | i'll research tomorrow |
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| 20:27.41 | aitor | stevelitt: today you wrote a lot |
| 20:28.20 | aitor | you are too prolific |
| 20:34.42 | aitor | the problem is in the initrd.img |
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| 20:45.24 | fsmithred | hi aitor |
| 20:46.13 | aitor | oh, i found the mistake |
| 20:46.26 | aitor | i think |
| 20:46.35 | fsmithred | yeah? |
| 20:47.23 | aitor | i changed and the helpers to /lib/vev |
| 20:47.49 | aitor | and th the content of /etc/vdev/vdev.conf is: |
| 20:48.05 | aitor | hwdb=/lib/i386-linux-gnu/vdev/hwdb/hwdb.squashfs |
| 20:48.20 | aitor | helpers=/lib/i386-linux-gnu/vdev |
| 20:48.53 | aitor | i changed the hwdb and the helpers :) |
| 20:50.00 | aitor | the shared libraries are in /etc/i386-linux-gnu |
| 20:50.33 | aitor | i'll build again the iso |
| 20:53.46 | aitor | the code for: |
| 20:53.52 | aitor | /lib/x86_64/ |
| 20:53.56 | aitor | is: |
| 20:54.10 | aitor | /lib/`gcc -print-multiarch`/ |
| 20:55.12 | aitor | see you tomorrow :) |
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| 21:22.29 | crhylove | I'm having trouble retrieving packages during install. Using the default repo on the beta netinstall disk (us.devuan.com I think?) |
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| 21:22.55 | crhylove | Is there a better/newer mirror? |
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| 21:31.52 | crhylove | Still stuck there.... |
| 21:32.50 | fsmithred | uncheck everything at tasksel, let it run, go back and do that step again, but check the boxes you want |
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| 22:04.21 | crhY | fsmithred: Will try. Thanks. |
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| 22:11.25 | crhylove | Looks like it's working this time without even getting to the tasksel screen. Using non-graphical this time. Which I prefer, generally. |
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| 22:20.42 | crhylove | :| Now it's stuck at Installing GRUB boot loader Retrieving file 3 0f 4. |
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| 22:23.55 | crhylove | fsmithred, Looks like it's going.... slowly. Must be my $4|+ connection. |
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| 23:01.28 | crhylove | Is there a plan for mediawiki to end up in the repos? The extensions are there, but mediawiki itself is not... |
| 23:02.47 | borsin | is it possible to stretch > ascii? i see a write for jessie to devuan jessie. |
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