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| 01:32.57 | golinux | fsmithred: I see that you stepped up to answer the challenge over at FDN! Nice job!! |
| 01:33.11 | fsmithred | thanks |
| 01:33.26 | fsmithred | wanted to do it this morning, but I didn't have time to test it again. |
| 01:33.43 | golinux | So did you do a rerun? |
| 01:34.13 | fsmithred | I re-did it about four or five times on one machine, then did it on another this evening |
| 01:34.33 | fsmithred | wanted to make sure that some extra commands I used the first time were not necessary |
| 01:34.43 | golinux | Those systemd fanbois are just soooo arrogant and need to be tweaked every so often,. |
| 01:34.56 | fsmithred | like xhost + or export DISPLAY=blah |
| 01:35.00 | fsmithred | don't need those |
| 01:35.12 | golinux | Maybe you should post it as a separate howto! |
| 01:35.23 | fsmithred | what I don't know is if it works on a system running systemd |
| 01:35.34 | fsmithred | don't know if they broke chroot or not |
| 01:35.50 | golinux | I suspect that might happen via an admin anyway. |
| 01:35.53 | fsmithred | it's not outside the realm of possibility |
| 01:36.08 | golinux | I don't remember that disclaimer in your post |
| 01:36.34 | fsmithred | the thread is "Run testing/unstable apps in stable." |
| 01:36.35 | golinux | I would say it's more than likely |
| 01:36.45 | fsmithred | I hope some others add a few more methods |
| 01:37.22 | fsmithred | maybe hoas will see me and raise me an lxc |
| 01:37.24 | golinux | That would be cool |
| 01:37.46 | golinux | LOL! |
| 01:38.38 | golinux | He did mention lxc already but not in the context of a howto |
| 01:41.25 | fsmithred | yeah, and I'll be a dollar he's reading up on it and getting ready to write one. |
| 01:42.43 | fsmithred | appimage looks interesting, too. Put the app and needed libraries in a single file and run that, kinda like a virtual machine. |
| 01:42.43 | golinux | That will be fun to watch where it goes. |
| 01:43.26 | fsmithred | I'm thinking of a friend who's still running squeeze for an app that she doesn't want to upgrade. And I mean someone other than you. |
| 01:44.31 | golinux | But that could be a solution for me eventually. |
| 01:45.59 | golinux | Could the other needed files be outside the container or would everything have to be inside? |
| 01:46.43 | fsmithred | inside. Start collecting the deb packages for whatever your favorite app needs. |
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| 01:47.29 | golinux | The wheezy versions are actually working on devuan. |
| 01:48.22 | fsmithred | what app we talking about? You don't like the jessie version, or it doesn't exist? |
| 01:48.28 | golinux | That would be 100s of GB of audio and video. |
| 01:48.51 | golinux | Remember the avidemux qt mess? |
| 01:49.05 | fsmithred | oh, I don't know if your working files need to be in the container. I think it's just the libraries. |
| 01:49.18 | golinux | I'm grabbed the wheezy gtk version |
| 01:49.24 | fsmithred | yeah, I sort of remember. |
| 01:49.52 | golinux | Good heavens . . . "I'm grabbed"?! |
| 01:50.19 | fsmithred | don't worry, I always read what you mean, not what you type. |
| 01:50.26 | golinux | Let me know when you figure it out |
| 01:51.22 | golinux | :) |
| 01:52.23 | fsmithred | so, from what I can see, the advantage of using systemd-nspawn is that you don't have to mount /dev, /sys, /proc, /dev/pts manually. |
| 01:53.51 | fsmithred | I guess it does that for you. I have a 40-line script that does it for me. |
| 01:54.01 | golinux | Automated for cli-phobic idiots |
| 01:54.51 | fsmithred | and if I wanted to run the same chroot often, I'd make a desktop launcher. |
| 01:55.04 | fsmithred | clicky-clicky |
| 01:55.10 | golinux | You should share that script on the thread and let hoas match and up you on that! |
| 01:55.24 | fsmithred | nah |
| 01:55.44 | golinux | Why not? |
| 01:56.06 | golinux | N00bies who wind up there might learn something |
| 01:56.49 | fsmithred | I think it would go off-topic |
| 01:57.30 | fsmithred | it would be more about scripting than doing the actual task |
| 01:57.47 | golinux | Not according to the title of which you reminded me |
| 01:58.49 | golinux | Think about it . . . |
| 01:58.50 | fsmithred | It might make a good thread in the programming section |
| 01:59.08 | fsmithred | but I don't want to spend time on that. |
| 01:59.22 | golinux | I need to go stretch my back a bit. |
| 01:59.52 | golinux | Doesn't have to be done immediately. But always good to have other options provided |
| 02:00.03 | golinux | cya |
| 02:00.25 | fsmithred | it's linux. There's always 10 ways to do it. |
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| 02:18.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | (( appimage looks interesting, too. Put the app and needed libraries in a single file and run that, kinda like a virtual machine.)) I don't see the purpose. Back in The Good Ole Times[tm] we called that static linking |
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| 02:20.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | so such appimage sounds to me like inventing nifty cruft to neuter an achievement of 30 or 40 years ago, called shared libraries |
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| 03:39.03 | adhoc[] | DocScrutinizer05: shared libraries cause all sorts of fun for those running things on docker containers, so they just statically link all the things |
| 03:39.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | so? |
| 03:39.38 | adhoc[] | DocScrutinizer05: all that work in the early 1990;s from folks at DEC making dynamic libraries work ... |
| 03:39.59 | adhoc[] | they'd roll in their graves if they weren't still with us =) |
| 03:40.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | indeed |
| 03:40.18 | adhoc[] | DocScrutinizer05: i never said building huge static binaries was a good idea |
| 03:40.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | poetterisms |
| 03:40.41 | adhoc[] | it helps with docker, cause its half a solution |
| 03:41.00 | adhoc[] | in another ten years when docker is mature ... |
| 03:41.41 | adhoc[] | but the cool kids will have moved on to some other ill thought out buzzword fill hype fest |
| 03:41.44 | adhoc[] | =P |
| 03:42.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | all that docker stuff and similar "solutions" doesn't make sense to me |
| 03:43.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~systemd |
| 03:43.01 | infobot | systemd cabal: a bunch of people (Lennart Poettering, Kay Sievers, H. Hoyer, D. Mack, T. Gundersen, D. Herrmann) who want to turn linux into their wet dream perverted version of windows-me-too: http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html -- Rumor has it that 2016 systemd will have replaced kernel. See ~nosystemd" |
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| 03:43.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | ^^^ is no less than complete re-invention of the whole OS |
| 03:45.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | each app with its own address space W*T*F?? |
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| 03:45.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | not in RAM but in file system |
| 03:46.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | so I should have said "name space" |
| 03:48.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | and systemd-timed already floods my syslog with no less than >40 loglines for each invokation by (systemd-)cron, to tell me about all those name spaces and cgroups getting set up and then destroyed again |
| 03:48.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | feels a strong urge to headdesk a little |
| 03:59.21 | furrywolf | tries to remember jwz's acronym for people constantly rewriting things, wrong |
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| 04:03.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | furrywolf: hm? |
| 04:06.37 | furrywolf | <adhoc[]:#devuan> but the cool kids will have moved on to some other ill thought out buzzword fill hype fest |
| 04:06.49 | furrywolf | jwz has an acronym for that. I can't remember what it is. |
| 04:09.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | aah |
| 04:09.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | some OT fun: |
| 04:09.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2016-08-10 Wed 04:31:33] <maddawg2> my neighborhood barber just got arrested for drug dealing |
| 04:09.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2016-08-10 Wed 04:31:51] <maddawg2> i've been his customer for 10 years and he never told me he was a barber |
| 04:10.34 | furrywolf | thus implying he was purchasing drugs for ten years? heh |
| 04:11.34 | furrywolf | around here you have to deal a lot of drugs to get arrested, and even they only book and release. |
| 04:12.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | where's "here"? |
| 04:12.09 | furrywolf | there was a bunch of press a bit ago after the police booked and released someone caught with a couple pounds of heroin. |
| 04:12.13 | furrywolf | far northern california |
| 04:12.29 | furrywolf | (yes, pounds. of heroin. not grams.) |
| 04:12.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm |
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| 04:13.16 | furrywolf | the news today is the cops raided a 1000-plant grow, and didn't even bother arresting anyone. just kill the plants and left. |
| 04:13.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | I heard heroin is the new middle/upperclass drug in USA now |
| 04:13.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | for all those who cot hooked by their medical doctors with percodone or what's the name |
| 04:14.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | got* |
| 04:14.19 | furrywolf | oxycodone |
| 04:14.33 | furrywolf | percocet |
| 04:14.57 | furrywolf | this area has bad problems with meth and heroin |
| 04:15.27 | furrywolf | there's tons of marijuana (per house...), but no one really considers that a problem anymore. |
| 04:16.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | isn't that legalized? |
| 04:16.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | aah not in california |
| 04:16.24 | furrywolf | no |
| 04:16.53 | furrywolf | but, it's an open joke. you can drive down the road and there's pot plants in people's front yards. no one cares. |
| 04:17.43 | furrywolf | my favorite is when they do their token bust every couple months of an indoor grow, they fulfill their obligation to destroy the equipment by cutting the power plugs off the ballasts, and that's it. :) |
| 04:18.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | lol |
| 04:19.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | seems USA facing the end of their second prohibition. Turns out it been as 'effective' as the first one |
| 04:20.18 | furrywolf | an analysis of satellite imagery by one of the local news outlets found around 15% of properties in the county had outdoor grows obviously visible from space, as of last time google bought imagery. that's 15% visible from space. doesn't include small grows or indoor... |
| 04:20.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | hahaha |
| 04:21.46 | furrywolf | https://lostcoastoutpost.com/media/uploads/post/14532/cover.jpg ones like that. big grows. |
| 04:22.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | let's hope when this prohibition end for good, people will stop using the totally evil drugs like meth and crack, just like they stopped drinking ether and methylene poisoned stuff when last one ended |
| 04:23.01 | furrywolf | so, yeah, it's about as illegal as jaywalking. |
| 04:24.31 | furrywolf | unlikely. |
| 04:25.17 | furrywolf | for two reasons... first, marijuana doesn't really substitute for meth, as they're pretty much exact opposites, and no one does meth because they couldn't get weed. second, everyone who wants to use marijuana already does. |
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| 04:25.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep, I understand that |
| 04:26.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | legalizing marijuana is only a first step to end this "war against drugs2 madness |
| 04:26.41 | furrywolf | I predict maybe a 5% increase in marijuana usage once it's legal. |
| 04:26.43 | furrywolf | it's trivially easy to procure or produce. |
| 04:26.52 | furrywolf | so everyone who wants to use it already does |
| 04:27.27 | furrywolf | I actually say no, I don't want free marijuana, every week or so. I don't use it, but people offer it free to everyone anyway... |
| 04:27.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | mitigating the fallout is another story |
| 04:29.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | you can't manage drug abuse by forbidding it. You need to embrace and embed |
| 04:29.15 | furrywolf | last time was yesterday, in fact. heh. |
| 04:29.52 | furrywolf | I don't think the legalization of marijuana is going to create any fallout like you're thinking. |
| 04:30.04 | furrywolf | the fallout here will be of a very different nature... the collapse of the local economy. |
| 04:30.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | social rules are the only thing that helps, together with controlled availability |
| 04:30.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | I meant the fallout of prohibition, not of legalization |
| 04:30.51 | furrywolf | we have no industry left. logging is marginal at best, fishing is dead, and manufacturing is completely gone. all the money coming into the area comes from weed leaving the area... |
| 04:31.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | prohibition causes an uncontrolled subculture and a black market with terrible substances |
| 04:32.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | no social control at all, not even inside family |
| 04:33.38 | furrywolf | most families here all do the same drugs |
| 04:33.43 | furrywolf | especially when it comes to meth. |
| 04:33.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | then it's already too late |
| 04:34.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's exactly the fallout I meant |
| 04:34.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | compare for alcohol |
| 04:35.10 | furrywolf | meth isn't quite as easy to get as weed, but you can still buy it any time, anywhere... |
| 04:35.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's socially controlled since it's not forbidden anymore |
| 04:35.53 | furrywolf | I'd be perfectly happy if alcohol was forbidden. it seems to destroy more lives than all other drugs combined, just because it's considered acceptable to use it. |
| 04:36.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | so odds are you learn from your parents how to use alcohol the right way |
| 04:36.41 | furrywolf | no one considers it acceptable to use meth. everyone considers it acceptable to use weed, but it seems to only impact lives, not destroy them. but everyone also considers it acceptable to use alcohol, and it's not nearly as harmless... |
| 04:37.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | alcohol is a very bad drug, but no matter what, during prohibition the rate of fatalities from alcohol-sustitutes and toxic methyl cut alcohol was magnitudes higher than before and after |
| 04:39.00 | furrywolf | hasn't figured out why anyone is defective enough to use drugs |
| 04:39.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | seems it has genetic reasons which are as old as man, even older and found in animals too |
| 04:40.15 | furrywolf | yeah... when my grapes go bad, I get drunk rats falling off my greenhouse ceiling. |
| 04:40.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: |
| 04:41.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | australian dogs lick toads to get high, go figure |
| 04:41.37 | furrywolf | lol |
| 04:42.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.dogwork.com/tbdk9 |
| 04:43.35 | furrywolf | closest thing I like to getting high involves a loving partner and a strapon... |
| 04:43.48 | furrywolf | looks like it's trying to load a video using a proprietary format |
| 04:44.27 | furrywolf | or the javascript is just plain broken |
| 04:45.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | adobe flash? |
| 04:45.57 | furrywolf | I'm not sure. the site is too nonfunctional to get the point of trying to actually load anything. |
| 04:46.49 | furrywolf | looks like they're attempting to use some broken javascript loader |
| 04:46.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | not worth it, it might even be a fake |
| 04:47.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | the movie, that is |
| 04:47.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | however the story seems not unique |
| 04:47.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | google for australian dogs lick toads |
| 04:48.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's what I did :-) |
| 04:48.36 | furrywolf | why the fucking hell would you take an utter shit javascript-bloated site, and then make it even worse by using a javascript loader to recursively load the rest of the javascript, making slow and broken even slower and brokener? |
| 04:48.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | seen exactly this video in TV a few days ago, in a report about adition |
| 04:48.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | adiction even |
| 04:49.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | (JS) no idea |
| 04:49.43 | furrywolf | the actual video is a perfectly normal .mp4 file. but their javascript doesn't work, at all, period. |
| 04:50.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | works surprisingly well in my otherwise JS-allergic konqueror |
| 04:50.45 | furrywolf | doesn't understand why webmasters spend so much time (and thus money) making sites _worse_. |
| 04:51.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | I guess that site is based on a probably commercial CMS |
| 04:51.54 | furrywolf | 99% of websites would be better if 99% of their javascript was removed. |
| 04:52.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | and don't ask me what those selling such stuff think or know |
| 04:52.35 | furrywolf | I remember someone linked to one the other day that loaded 13MB of javascript. no, that's not a typo. |
| 04:52.43 | furrywolf | over a hundred files |
| 04:52.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | FFS! |
| 04:53.15 | furrywolf | firefox went out to lunch for about 30 seconds parsing it... |
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| 04:53.37 | furrywolf | (after the several minutes downloading it) |
| 04:53.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | and then you get the bitching customer: "why the hell doesn't the browser in my phone work anymore??!?" |
| 04:55.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | (out for lunch) I get exactly that on all git??b stuff sourcecode listings like in git.devuan.org |
| 04:55.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | with konqueror |
| 04:55.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | even scrolling is nearly impossible |
| 04:56.34 | furrywolf | yes, I do believe I've bitched about devuan's various javascript-bloated pages. :) |
| 04:56.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | no surprise when every character gets packed as an object in htms, and then the whiole stuff rendered via JS |
| 04:57.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | html* |
| 04:57.37 | furrywolf | the forum/list/whatever is really horrid. |
| 04:58.23 | furrywolf | https://talk.devuan.org/ |
| 04:58.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | that too, yes |
| 04:58.37 | detha | doing it properly is a lot more work for the webmaster :P |
| 04:58.43 | furrywolf | I think that was the one. |
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| 05:00.45 | detha | I have seen someone loading a 4MB framework, because 'I can just include that, and it works' just to get a sliding banner on top of the page. |
| 05:02.21 | furrywolf | there's two problems with that. the first is WANTING ANYTHING TO SLIDE. said webmaster should be put to death. |
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| 05:04.57 | furrywolf | e.appendChild(a,n);var n=e.createTextNode("\n");e.appendChild(a,n);var n=e.createComment("");e.appendChild(a,n);var n=e.createTextNode("\n");e.appendChild(a,n);var n=e.createComment("");e.appendChild(a,n);var n=e.createTextNode("\n ");e.appendChild(a,n),e.appendChild(r,a);var a=e.createTextNode("\n ");e.appendChild(r,a);var a=e.createElement("footer");e.setAttribute(a,"class","clearfix");var n=e.createTextNode("\n ");e.appendChild(a,n);var n=e.cr |
| 05:05.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, that's most annoying that 95% of JS are used for eyecandy purpose only |
| 05:05.16 | furrywolf | pages and pages of THAT is what makes talk.devuan.org "work". |
| 05:05.49 | furrywolf | and it takes 30 seconds to load a page, while every other forum software on the planet works fine. |
| 05:06.35 | furrywolf | just one of the many bloated files... https://talk.devuan.org/assets/application-e7460d0e3ace5ccdb6f56f23fb51d06f91be98966954308396a763f0271e9ebf.js |
| 05:07.47 | furrywolf | r=i(r,a,n,d,t[0],7,-680876936),d=i(d,r,a,n,t[1],12,-389564586),n=i(n,d,r,a,t[2],17,606105819),a=i(a,n,d,r,t[3],22,-1044525330),r=i(r,a,n,d,t[4],7,-176418897),d=i(d,r,a,n,t[5],12,1200080426),n=i(n,d,r,a,t[6],17,-1473231341),a=i(a,n,d,r,t[7],22,-45705983),r=i(r,a,n,d,t[8],7,1770035416),d=i(d,r,a,n,t[9],12,-1958414417),n=i(n,d,r,a,t[10],17,-42063),a=i(a,n,d,r,t[11],22,-1990404162),r=i(r,a,n,d,t[12],7,1804603682),d=i(d,r,a,n,t[13],12,-40341101),n=i(n,d,r,a,t[14 |
| 05:07.54 | furrywolf | yes, it even includes its own RNG. |
| 05:08.02 | detha | At least it went through the trouble of minimizing it, so you don't see the horribility straight away |
| 05:08.21 | furrywolf | detha: on the contrary, I know it's going to be horrible when I see it. :P |
| 05:08.35 | furrywolf | at least I assume that's an RNG... |
| 05:09.55 | detha | 'drat'. this minimizer has a sense of humour |
| 05:09.55 | furrywolf | for all I know it's a drive-by download disguised as an RNG. |
| 05:10.41 | furrywolf | r=e.createTextNode("\n");e.appendChild(t,r);var r=e.createElement("td"),a=e.createComment("");e.appendChild(r,a),e.appendChild(t,r);var r=e.createTextNode("\n");e.appendChild(t,r);var r=e.createElement("td"),a=e.createComment("");e.appendChild(r,a),e.appendChild(t,r);var r=e.createTextNode("\n");e.appendChild(t,r);var r=e.createElement("td"),a=e.createComment("");e.appendChild(r,a),e.appendChild(t,r);var r=e.createTextNode("\n");e.appendChild(t,r);var r=e.c |
| 05:11.09 | furrywolf | loops do not exist in their world. |
| 05:12.50 | furrywolf | bbl, wolfy bedtime |
| 05:12.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | unrolling loops is a well known practice to speed up execution of code ;-P |
| 05:13.50 | furrywolf | except in interpreted languages... :P |
| 05:13.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | of course |
| 05:14.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | particularly when you have downloading/parsing time too |
| 05:14.44 | furrywolf | in any case, talk.devuan.org is utter shit, and is mostly unusable. |
| 05:15.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | discourse |
| 05:15.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | the name of that stuff |
| 05:15.21 | furrywolf | yes, it's mentioned many times in the javascript. |
| 05:15.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | iirc |
| 05:15.26 | furrywolf | however, it didn't install itself. :P |
| 05:17.49 | furrywolf | bbl |
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| 12:46.18 | penelopa | Hi! Slackware work without systemd! Nice! |
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| 13:37.44 | figlfdev | unless you REALLY like puppy, or are working on a refracta/puppy hybrid, youre not going to care that petget now works in refracta/devuan (but it does) |
| 13:38.17 | figlfdev | generally prefers debs |
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| 13:44.52 | fsmithred | hi figlfdev |
| 13:45.06 | figlfdev | heya |
| 13:45.14 | fsmithred | what's petget? |
| 13:45.18 | figlfdev | latest version fixes the renamed fig deb :) |
| 13:45.37 | figlfdev | petget is the package management for puppy (so you can use apt stuff or puppy stuff in fig os) |
| 13:45.37 | fsmithred | huh? |
| 13:46.02 | figlfdev | the latest version of fig os changes the fig url from fig31_etc to fig29-31_etc |
| 13:46.42 | fsmithred | yeah, I hope that didn't cause problems for you. But it made more sense to change the name. |
| 13:46.52 | figlfdev | its cool, its already fixed |
| 13:47.02 | figlfdev | and i agree that it makes more sense |
| 13:47.12 | fsmithred | so what happens when you install pup packages on refracta? They work? |
| 13:47.30 | figlfdev | well the thing about pup packages is, you never know... |
| 13:47.43 | fsmithred | you like living on the edge, eh? |
| 13:47.46 | figlfdev | theyre essentially binaries in tar.gz with some extra stuff |
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| 13:47.50 | figlfdev | No, i like debs. |
| 13:47.57 | figlfdev | but pets are fun |
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| 13:49.26 | figlfdev | since one of the objectives of fig os is to create a new puppy that starts with refracta... the option of puppy package management is important. no way am i going to try to strip out deb support (thats a bonus) |
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| 13:50.10 | figlfdev | i tried a ton of pets last night-- quite a few worked (others wanted an old version of gtk2 i could probably throw in somehow) |
| 13:50.24 | fsmithred | are you eventually going to merge them into a single OS (non-multi-boot iso) |
| 13:50.40 | figlfdev | whenever practical i prefer to go with deb sources |
| 13:51.29 | figlfdev | fsmithred: if it gets to the point where both sides are close enough together that no one cares about which mode is which? probably. but that could take more than a year. |
| 13:51.49 | fsmithred | sounds about right |
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| 13:52.31 | figlfdev | i tried copying the refracta vmlinuz over again. i dont know why, when i use the refracta vmlinuz it wont load the puppy squashfs. |
| 13:52.54 | figlfdev | it doesnt matter, i can move anything from the puppy squashfs to the refracta side that i want. |
| 13:53.09 | fsmithred | did you compare kernel configs? |
| 13:53.19 | figlfdev | doesnt know kernel configs |
| 13:53.36 | figlfdev | im curious what the difference is. but im not ultimately interested in the puppy kernel. |
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| 13:53.41 | fsmithred | look at /boot/config-<version> |
| 13:53.51 | figlfdev | cool, ty |
| 13:54.12 | figlfdev | i can honestly say, if not for refracta AND puppy, id never have tried any of this. |
| 13:54.25 | fsmithred | it shows what was compiled in the kernel or as module |
| 13:54.52 | figlfdev | a year ago when i was doing my own programming language, i was like "man, i cant imagine ever working on a distro-- for anything" |
| 13:55.19 | fsmithred | never say never |
| 13:55.33 | figlfdev | i am never going to be a millionaire... |
| 13:55.55 | figlfdev | waits |
| 14:02.40 | fsmithred | see pm (no, it's not a million dollars) |
| 14:03.02 | fsmithred | brb |
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| 14:19.21 | achylles | I have a guest user and 2 other normal users. How can I deny the guest user to access the other 2 normal users folders. All of them have 755 permissions... |
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| 14:29.53 | figlfdev | o/ https://www.jwz.org/blog/2003/02/the-cadt-model/ |
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| 14:31.59 | figlfdev | "jwz has an acronym for that." (its cadt) @ furrywolf |
| 14:32.05 | fsmithred | achylles, there's a file in which you must change the umask setting |
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| 14:34.49 | furrywolf | I knew someone would have a better memory than I do. :) |
| 14:36.20 | figlfdev | i read a lot of steve litt before devuan went beta and the mailing list became too much to keep up with |
| 14:36.51 | figlfdev | now i keep up with irc and sometimes look at the rss feed. keeping up with the ml will probably not happen again |
| 14:39.20 | furrywolf | while you're at it, you should keep up with lkml too. |
| 14:39.29 | figlfdev | i thought i sent him here. |
| 14:40.00 | figlfdev | hes working on that a20 thing with starhawk (a regular on the puppy forum) |
| 14:40.14 | figlfdev | i told him to check out devuan... but its very possible he was here already |
| 14:40.29 | figlfdev | lkml is awesome. half the stuff he says is gold |
| 14:41.05 | fsmithred | achylles, see: http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=59365&p=344998 |
| 14:41.52 | fsmithred | achylles, this post: http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=59365&p=344998#p344998 |
| 14:42.17 | achylles | fsmithred, thx a lot! I will have a look... |
| 14:42.54 | fsmithred | yw. edit /etc/pam.d/common-session for anyone who doesn't follow the link. |
| 14:45.52 | furrywolf | randomly curls up on Lydia_K |
| 14:46.20 | Lydia_K | pets furrywolf |
| 14:46.46 | furrywolf | :) |
| 14:46.54 | golinux | figlfdev: lkml = Linux Kernel Mail List so what you said doesn't really make sense |
| 14:47.08 | figlfdev | golinux: yeah i sometimes mix those up |
| 14:47.19 | figlfdev | luke kenneth... |
| 14:47.22 | golinux | Those being? |
| 14:47.36 | golinux | Ah, yes. I've done that too |
| 14:47.55 | figlfdev | even as i said it, i knew fw might be referring to the mailing list |
| 14:48.02 | figlfdev | however, i know f-a about kernels |
| 14:48.41 | furrywolf | I was just joking you should follow one of the busiest mailing lists around |
| 14:48.51 | figlfdev | now it makes sense :) |
| 14:49.02 | figlfdev | though i assumed it did |
| 14:49.25 | furrywolf | I assumed everyone knew what lkml was. :) |
| 14:49.31 | figlfdev | does |
| 14:50.26 | figlfdev | and its pretty amusing that lkcl is one letter away from lkml, given what lkcl does |
| 14:51.09 | figlfdev | imagine if the fsf is someday run by a guy named gary nathan underwood or something |
| 14:51.56 | furrywolf | has no idea what lkcl is |
| 14:52.06 | figlfdev | a person that posts here in irc |
| 14:52.42 | figlfdev | in this channel. the a20 respects-your-freedom reusable pc on a not-really-cardbus card |
| 14:52.47 | fsmithred | he's the eco laptop dev? |
| 14:52.51 | figlfdev | thats the one |
| 14:53.10 | figlfdev | its not ryf certified yet, but they want it |
| 14:53.29 | figlfdev | thinks ryf is a good idea, but it needed to start 5 years earlier |
| 14:54.18 | furrywolf | continues having no idea. lol |
| 14:54.51 | figlfdev | https://fsf.org/ryf |
| 14:55.02 | figlfdev | basically for hw what they do for sw. |
| 14:55.11 | figlfdev | laptops with coreboot, things like that |
| 14:55.48 | furrywolf | heh, my new laptop is the exact opposite... a toughbook with the least-compatible firmware they could find. |
| 14:56.00 | figlfdev | gotta start somewhere |
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| 14:56.32 | figlfdev | i had a toughbook once, i ran dsl on it |
| 14:57.09 | figlfdev | theyre very brittle. you can run a truck over one, but i think you can smash it into pieces |
| 14:57.58 | furrywolf | so far the ones I own have held up well. |
| 14:58.23 | furrywolf | the one we keep in the shop has been dropped, rained on, stepped on, doused in brake fluid,... still works well. |
| 14:58.59 | furrywolf | the brake fluid swelled the rubber on the trackpad buttons, but only minorly. |
| 14:59.01 | figlfdev | sounds like a good model to have in the shop |
| 14:59.26 | furrywolf | one of my all-time favorite moments was when I was washing that laptop. |
| 14:59.45 | furrywolf | I was in the driveway, lathering it up with dish soap and a sponge, with the garden hose. |
| 15:00.01 | figlfdev | very nice |
| 15:00.08 | furrywolf | the mailman stopped by to deliver a package. he kind of just froze for about ten seconds completely and utterly dumbfounded. |
| 15:00.28 | furrywolf | he finally managed to say "umm, are you sure that's a good idea?" |
| 15:00.40 | figlfdev | mine wasnt watertight |
| 15:00.56 | figlfdev | parts of it were quite resistant im sure |
| 15:00.58 | furrywolf | I turned it on and showed him it still working covered in soap. he then had a good laugh. :) |
| 15:01.42 | furrywolf | they're not entirely watertight, at least not the older models I have. after hosing them down, you need to open all the port covers and let them dry out. water gets in, but it's designed so it doesn't pool on anything that cares, unless you get a whole lot in. |
| 15:01.49 | furrywolf | the new ones are watertight. |
| 15:02.00 | figlfdev | i had a watertight gte one with a plastic shell-- plug for the headphones and all |
| 15:02.42 | golinux | And this has what to do with devuan? |
| 15:02.47 | furrywolf | if you pop out the battery, hard drive, etc, on my older ones, you always find a bit of water in the bottom of the case. leave everything out for a day and let it evaporate. |
| 15:02.59 | furrywolf | golinux: my toughbook cf-52 runs devuan. |
| 15:04.05 | figlfdev | eventually everything will be off-topic, like it is on #debian |
| 15:04.18 | figlfdev | thats when we will know weve finally arrived |
| 15:04.51 | Lydia_K | It's pretty rarely on topic in here these days. |
| 15:05.00 | Lydia_K | It's also been pretty quiet |
| 15:05.09 | furrywolf | dead channels are a bad thing. |
| 15:05.22 | figlfdev | furrywolf: we are the minority |
| 15:05.44 | figlfdev | i sympathize with people reading logs, but "no talking" is hardly a good policy for a fledgling distro |
| 15:05.57 | furrywolf | active discussions make people stay around. getting to know your fellow channel members helps build community. laughter is the best medicine. etc. |
| 15:06.37 | figlfdev | you sound like you used irc before it was internet relay logging |
| 15:06.54 | furrywolf | I've used irc for about 20 years... |
| 15:06.54 | furrywolf | maybe more. |
| 15:06.54 | furrywolf | lol |
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| 15:07.03 | figlfdev | i used it in dos, but not 20 years ago |
| 15:07.25 | figlfdev | more like 12-15 |
| 15:08.10 | furrywolf | my first debian box was a 486 with 16mb of ram. then I put it on my 386 with 4mb... |
| 15:08.21 | figlfdev | community is very important. like you i dont have the patience for a page to load on go-for-a-walk.devuan.org |
| 15:08.41 | figlfdev | when you come back from the walk, your page is loaded. (i know i know, "it works for me") |
| 15:09.20 | furrywolf | lol |
| 15:09.29 | figlfdev | thankfull the rss feed mirrors most or all of new posts there |
| 15:09.44 | figlfdev | someone should fork discourse. they should call it "off-course" |
| 15:09.47 | furrywolf | I'm not sure what goes on in the mind of a web developer who writes a page like that. |
| 15:09.57 | furrywolf | it's not just bad, it's wrong. |
| 15:10.07 | figlfdev | "off-course is discourse without ajax" |
| 15:10.20 | furrywolf | just install phpbb or something. :) |
| 15:10.40 | figlfdev | i think it takes a global conspiracy to develop sites/cms that badly |
| 15:10.46 | figlfdev | gets dragged off forever |
| 15:10.50 | figlfdev | bye! |
| 15:10.53 | furrywolf | cyas |
| 15:11.31 | figlfdev | yeah but maybe. |
| 15:11.59 | furrywolf | :P |
| 15:12.18 | furrywolf | it obviously took thousands of hours of coding to make it suck that badly |
| 15:12.23 | furrywolf | it's like systemd. |
| 15:12.31 | figlfdev | they have frameworks for that stuff now |
| 15:12.55 | fsmithred | to make it easier to write bad code? |
| 15:13.04 | figlfdev | to make it faster to clog things up |
| 15:13.22 | figlfdev | its so ironic-- the one thing theyre super efficient about is being super-inefficient |
| 15:13.22 | Lydia_K | LOL |
| 15:14.25 | figlfdev | when i started dealing with (s5d) i spent a couple weeks REALLY wanting to throw my netbook at l5t. |
| 15:15.01 | figlfdev | but i set to work looking for solutions-- tried gnu/kfreebsd, looked at which distros were staying away |
| 15:15.19 | figlfdev | depressingly few. started following devuan closely from january or sooner |
| 15:15.40 | figlfdev | i learned how to isohybrid the valentine pre-alpha when dd didnt work. |
| 15:15.47 | figlfdev | thanks mailing list. |
| 15:16.05 | figlfdev | but s5d never filled me with the rage and frustration that discouse does. |
| 15:16.32 | figlfdev | s/use/urse |
| 15:17.00 | furrywolf | lol |
| 15:17.40 | figlfdev | it REALLY needs to be forked. then they can install the fork and we will all be happy |
| 15:17.49 | furrywolf | or it just needs to be not used. |
| 15:17.54 | furrywolf | there's plenty of good alternatives. |
| 15:17.59 | figlfdev | thats not the devuan way. we fork everything that sucks. |
| 15:18.07 | furrywolf | we have a systemd fork now? |
| 15:18.13 | figlfdev | someday there will be an international devuan party. |
| 15:18.22 | figlfdev | furrywolf: you really are a genius. |
| 15:18.34 | figlfdev | but you know that. (lol@we have a systemd fork) |
| 15:18.35 | furrywolf | we removed the thing that sucked, and used something that doesn't. |
| 15:18.51 | figlfdev | well the discourse fork needs to be discourse without js |
| 15:19.11 | furrywolf | or it needs to be any of the other perfectly functional forum programs. |
| 15:19.54 | figlfdev | that sounds more like adams repo than devuan... |
| 15:20.06 | figlfdev | obviously im open to all solutions that actually work |
| 15:20.54 | figlfdev | i dont know him-- i know how to spell 100% of adam and 90% of his last name. |
| 15:22.07 | furrywolf | brb |
| 15:36.45 | *** join/#devuan jathan (~jathan@132.248.174.116) |
| 15:37.39 | lkcl | furrywolf: fastest way to understand what i'm doing (in about 3 minutes): https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/hope-2016 |
| 15:39.14 | lkcl | #parabola's pbot helps enormously, it can be used to "tell" people stuff and it reports "hey you have messages" when they arrive online |
| 15:39.28 | lkcl | pbot: tell furrywolf: hello for when you're back |
| 15:39.33 | figlfdev | i didnt even know you were here |
| 15:39.52 | figlfdev | i went to duckduckgo to look up your initials |
| 15:40.00 | figlfdev | couldve used tab completion |
| 15:40.40 | figlfdev | was up all night. read about the files with "755 permissions" (yeah, octal) and thought "man, thats a LOT of permissions" |
| 15:41.57 | lkcl | lol |
| 15:42.29 | lkcl | well it's not " Lanco Kalahasthi Castings Ltd. (India; steel casings manufacturer)" |
| 15:42.35 | figlfdev | did you start with the project about 5 years ago? |
| 15:42.58 | figlfdev | because i think it was 5 years ago i first read about an a20 project that was "just remove the card and upgrade by putting a new one in" |
| 15:43.29 | lkcl | figlfdev: yeah. it was an a10 back then |
| 15:43.39 | figlfdev | nods |
| 15:43.55 | figlfdev | i think it was being talked about on identi.ca |
| 15:44.04 | lkcl | that rings a bell |
| 15:44.47 | figlfdev | or an email from the guy that started linux-libre... alexand[er][oe] oliva |
| 15:45.30 | *** join/#devuan Human (~Human_G33@212.83.186.22) |
| 15:45.32 | lkcl | i know aoliva. yeah. |
| 15:46.07 | figlfdev | i wanted a netbook, he told me to get a leemote yeelong, so i did |
| 15:46.08 | furrywolf | lkcl: that page appears to contain no useful information, just a video. |
| 15:46.17 | figlfdev | videos are sometimes useful |
| 15:46.26 | figlfdev | but they do take longer to parse |
| 15:47.01 | figlfdev | the ] key on mplayer makes them go faster :) |
| 15:47.07 | *** join/#devuan Human (~Human_G33@212.83.186.22) |
| 15:48.23 | lkcl | furrywolf: correct. fastest way, watch the video |
| 15:48.48 | lkcl | furrywolf: you can use youtube-dl to grab it if you prefer :) |
| 15:49.25 | furrywolf | does not like video |
| 15:49.29 | figlfdev | is doing that now |
| 15:49.32 | lkcl | furrywolf: was noisy as hell but i'd done about 200 repetitions of the same 3 minutes by that point |
| 15:49.39 | furrywolf | nor do I like waiting for video to download... |
| 15:49.48 | lkcl | furrywolf: ahh... :) |
| 15:50.01 | figlfdev | doesnt wait. runs mplayer from another screen ... um, page |
| 15:50.20 | figlfdev | buffer? what do you call the thing that you get when you ctrl-a c in screen? |
| 15:50.23 | furrywolf | you likely have high-speed internet. and you also likely like video. :P |
| 15:50.28 | furrywolf | brb |
| 15:50.30 | figlfdev | i like text |
| 15:50.37 | figlfdev | ive dreamed in text. |
| 15:50.39 | lkcl | furrywolf: well then, it's a modular upgradeable computer standard, a bit like a "memory card" except now it's a "computer card" |
| 15:50.56 | lkcl | figlfdev: !!! |
| 15:51.19 | lkcl | that's hilarious. |
| 15:51.24 | figlfdev | green on black text :) but not coming down from the top like the matrix. |
| 15:51.36 | figlfdev | scrolling up like this chat is |
| 15:52.01 | lkcl | figlfdev: ROTFL |
| 15:52.07 | figlfdev | 2d dreaming. but mostly i dream in 3d like normal people. |
| 15:52.56 | lkcl | i'm just wondering if i can replicate that by telling my subconscious to give it a shot |
| 15:53.15 | figlfdev | lucid vt100 dreams? sure |
| 15:53.29 | lkcl | ok dream-subconscious, let's go 2Dzzzzz scroll, scroll :) |
| 15:53.55 | lkcl | brb i'm sorry i have to go tell my friends in the other room about this |
| 15:54.12 | figlfdev | it only happened once |
| 15:54.53 | figlfdev | but it was completely 2d-- screen as far as vision could stretch across, with no bevel |
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| 15:56.42 | lkcl | figlfdev: my friend says, do you ever dream ascii art? ROTFL |
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| 15:57.00 | figlfdev | :) nah |
| 15:57.18 | figlfdev | maybe if id spent more time using the libcaca filter on mplayer |
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| 16:04.58 | *** join/#devuan OmegaPhil (~kvirc@fsf/member/OmegaPhil) |
| 16:09.01 | figlfdev | lkcl: as someone who prefers text, thats a very sincere and wonderful video |
| 16:09.16 | figlfdev | (and its < 5 minutes) |
| 16:09.47 | figlfdev | anything under 10 is pretty reasonable for something that important. a ted talk is < 20 |
| 16:11.50 | figlfdev | compartment for 2 usb devices that dont get knocked off :) |
| 16:12.47 | lkcl | figlfdev: thx |
| 16:12.58 | figlfdev | youre a lot closer to perfecting the laptop than most people. |
| 16:13.55 | figlfdev | has jaromil seen that video? |
| 16:14.15 | lkcl | figlfdev: yehh but we have to wait for like 20nm and below to really make mainstream |
| 16:14.21 | lkcl | figlfdev: don't know |
| 16:15.57 | figlfdev | how did you end up with a mix of plastic and wood panels? it looks like 85% plastic with a tiny amount of wood (if it is wood) |
| 16:16.41 | figlfdev | obviously they havent figured out how to make lcd screens out of wood yet |
| 16:18.20 | furrywolf | I planned something like that a while ago... my idea was a smartphone-like device (back when smartphones were a new idea) with a fancy docking connector and whole lots of flash. you could pop it into the side of a laptop body, and it'd switch to its screen, keyboard, etc. or a desktop-type monitor. pop it out, switches back to its screen. |
| 16:18.27 | lkcl | figlfdev: don't laugh.... i couldn't be bothered to 3d-print a rectangular bit of plastic! seemed like a waste of my time and resources :) |
| 16:18.43 | furrywolf | the devices it's docked to could provide their own video cards, etc. |
| 16:18.53 | lkcl | furrywolf: yeahhhhh love it. |
| 16:19.10 | furrywolf | I even pondered a NUMA scheme where devices could provide additional processing and memory... |
| 16:19.40 | furrywolf | and apps that could switch between touch and pointer interfaces, well before windows 10 was even thought of. :P |
| 16:20.08 | lkcl | furrywolf: bizarre that what we imagine turns up a few years later, neh? |
| 16:20.15 | figlfdev | there are more than 30 women in here, and i dont know why |
| 16:20.26 | figlfdev | im the only dude except for the people that work here |
| 16:21.20 | lkcl | figlfdev: hey! i'm a dude! err... |
| 16:21.37 | figlfdev | not in irc, in this room |
| 16:21.47 | figlfdev | (irl) |
| 16:22.05 | furrywolf | are any of them mature, intelligent, sane, practical, and good with a strapon? I'm looking... :P |
| 16:22.24 | figlfdev | me too :) |
| 16:22.40 | figlfdev | though im going to bail-- not only because im outnumbered |
| 16:22.56 | lkcl | furrywolf: only if the strapon is for you :) |
| 16:23.15 | figlfdev | o/ |
| 16:23.31 | lkcl | teehee |
| 16:23.49 | furrywolf | lkcl: I already own a few... |
| 16:25.16 | lkcl | wonders how this conversation started... :) |
| 16:25.42 | furrywolf | figlfdev mentioning being surrounded by women with no men |
| 16:26.39 | furrywolf | which made me think about how hard it is to find women who don't like men... |
| 16:28.17 | golinux | lkcl: It's like the doodoo that keeps winding up on the sole of your shoe and won't go away |
| 16:28.32 | furrywolf | lkcl: golinux doesn't like me. :P |
| 16:28.40 | golinux | IOW a recurring bad joke on this channel |
| 16:29.15 | lkcl | golinux: yehh... :) |
| 16:30.50 | lkcl | golinux: wrong type of channel for where they put m/f labels next to the names.... i just see "names" |
| 16:32.12 | lkcl | devuan seems to be where things are generally a lot less... painful, shall we say |
| 16:32.12 | lkcl | oh. |
| 16:32.16 | lkcl | which reminds me. |
| 16:32.42 | lkcl | is there any intention to set up a social charter for devuan, and if so, has the fundamental basis been discussed at all? |
| 16:32.44 | fsmithred | devuan seems a lot more like debian than debian does |
| 16:32.52 | lkcl | i have some ideas there |
| 16:33.02 | *** join/#devuan joered (~pingus@93-58-161-247.ip159.fastwebnet.it) |
| 16:33.38 | fsmithred | lkcl, I think it was discussed and there was some sentiment that it should be delayed. |
| 16:33.47 | lkcl | when i was in touch with people from the ASF i advocated that they include a section "contributions shall also be valued based on STRATEGIC merit" next to the "technical" one |
| 16:34.22 | lkcl | fsmithred: yeah. you need a sound basis, first. something that resonates. and bob podolski's "bill of ethics" *really* strongly resonated with me |
| 16:35.28 | fsmithred | so, by including strategic merit, that means a new way of doing things that's better than the old way might not get forced on people because of the ass-pain it would cause? |
| 16:36.39 | lkcl | fsmithred: the ASF was at the time making some decisions to improve technical code quality... *without* considering the consequences of doing so |
| 16:37.17 | fsmithred | primum non nocere! |
| 16:37.19 | lkcl | for example, the mozilla foundation are f****g things up right now by removing XPCOM |
| 16:37.38 | lkcl | instead of doing what they *should* be doing which is to add in co-class support |
| 16:37.46 | furrywolf | s/right.*$// |
| 16:38.10 | lkcl | which would in turn MASSIVELY expand the reach of xulrunner in the java, c++, python and other worlds.... |
| 16:38.20 | fsmithred | I don't know what any of that is. |
| 16:38.26 | lkcl | ... which is what the mozilla foundation's charter SAYS that they're f****g well supposed to do... |
| 16:38.46 | lkcl | fsmithred: XPCOM is like microsoft's COM. it's incredibly powerful. |
| 16:39.11 | lkcl | it's like gobject introspection at runtime (gir) |
| 16:39.31 | lkcl | except it was invented almost 3 decades ago and done PROPERLY |
| 16:39.55 | lkcl | the mozilla foundation copied it... and f****d it up by leaving out co-classes, which is absolutely critical |
| 16:40.10 | lkcl | it's like they copied c++ but left out multiple-inheritance basically |
| 16:40.20 | lkcl | just like java |
| 16:40.36 | lkcl | they've been paying for that ever since (like 15 years of extreme pain and inconvenience) |
| 16:41.11 | lkcl | but rather than fix it, they decided to rip XPCOM out, destroying any possibility of *ACTUALLY* fulfilling the Mozilla Charter. |
| 16:41.52 | lkcl | my point is: the mozilla foundation's directors f****d up on the strategic decision-making by focussing on *technical* issues. |
| 16:41.58 | lkcl | ... sound familiar? :) |
| 16:42.11 | fsmithred | yeah |
| 16:44.02 | lkcl | fsmithred: it's happening all too often, now. debian, systemd, mozilla foundation, google, apple (webkit), pulseaudio, libreoffice, mysql, python foundation, even the KDE team |
| 16:44.16 | lkcl | python foundation not so much, they do ok |
| 16:44.40 | golinux | lkcl: Sorry wandered off for a while. https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/HellekinConstitutionDraft |
| 16:44.45 | lkcl | KDE got $EUR 10m funding and copied Windows Vista's GUI... no wonder people hated it so much! |
| 16:44.54 | lkcl | golinux: cool! |
| 16:45.58 | golinux | lkcl: Your input would be most welcome |
| 16:46.01 | lkcl | golinux: can i recommend everyone involved to get bob podolski's book "flourish"? |
| 16:46.12 | lkcl | golinux: ack. pinned-tab already |
| 16:47.29 | golinux | Talk to hellekin. At one point there was talk of a ML dedicated to working things out. But better to have no 'rules' than bad rules. |
| 16:48.42 | furrywolf | rule 1: just because something is new, doesn't mean it's improved. |
| 16:50.22 | lkcl | golinux: ack. well... funnily enough that sentiment stems from ethics... which stems from "majority rule" being unethical.... which is why bob advocates unanimous voting.. :) |
| 16:51.45 | golinux | Yeah, tyranny of the majority |
| 16:52.17 | golinux | Which might even be a minority of numbers |
| 16:52.20 | furrywolf | rule 2: fix bugs in existing features before adding new features |
| 16:52.39 | golinux | That happened on a boycott vote in out local co-op. |
| 16:52.42 | furrywolf | rule 3: don't break things you don't plan on fixing. especially other people's code. |
| 16:53.18 | lkcl | furrywolf: i like rule 1. |
| 16:54.28 | lkcl | golinux: it can happen... that's why bob *also* recommends that people get together in groups of between 7 and 9 - similar to the "mythical man-month". |
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| 16:55.22 | lkcl | golinux: he worked with john david garcia about 30 years ago spending several years researching how people can work effectively. dozens of studies - he's scientifically-trained (particle physics - as was his father) |
| 16:57.35 | golinux | The subdivision I live in requires unanimous approval. It has made life very difficult |
| 16:58.01 | golinux | People are not as predictable as particles |
| 16:58.52 | lkcl | golinux: how many people in the subdivision? |
| 17:00.01 | fsmithred | like the rainbow family. Rule by consensus. Takes forever to get anything to happen, and that's probably a good thing. |
| 17:01.06 | furrywolf | would never live somewhere with a HOA |
| 17:01.26 | *** join/#devuan hellekin (~how@unaffiliated/hellekin) |
| 17:01.32 | hellekin | hi there |
| 17:01.36 | fsmithred | hi |
| 17:01.46 | lkcl | fsmithred: exactly. any rule by majority *automatically* means that someone's not going to be happy. |
| 17:01.51 | hellekin | does anyone know of a raspi3 image more recent than the beta? |
| 17:01.52 | golinux | lkcl: 11 properties |
| 17:01.55 | lkcl | hellekin: allo. |
| 17:02.13 | golinux | hellekin: Good timing! |
| 17:02.13 | hellekin | hi lkcl, golinux |
| 17:02.20 | fsmithred | how about: 2/3 majority to make a rule, 1/3 to remove the rule? |
| 17:02.22 | lkcl | golinux: just too many to be efficient / effective. |
| 17:02.29 | hellekin | why that? |
| 17:02.57 | fsmithred | hellekin, you asking me? |
| 17:03.07 | hellekin | I vote for no rule :) |
| 17:03.07 | hellekin | I'm asking the channel |
| 17:03.14 | furrywolf | having the government telling you what to do on your own private property is bad enough, without your neighbors getting a say too. |
| 17:03.37 | hellekin | is that #devuan? |
| 17:04.03 | hellekin | furrywolf: I should have a say on your private property. |
| 17:04.14 | lkcl | hellekin: just talking about the draft constitution. |
| 17:04.22 | golinux | fsmithred: An attorney once told me that consensus does not necessarily equate to unanimous. |
| 17:04.50 | fsmithred | yeah, some will say, "Yes, ok" just to get out of there. |
| 17:05.21 | lkcl | hellekin: i'm advocating everyone who'd like to contribute to the constitution to read bob podolski's book "flourish", first. and to pay special attention to the definition of "an ethical act" and secondly to his section on the "bill of ethics" |
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| 17:05.51 | golinux | But when the pump breaks on our community well we manage to get it fixed. ;) |
| 17:07.39 | golinux | And paid for. |
| 17:12.50 | lkcl | golinux: i was a member of the westminster housing coop back in ... mm... 2010? that was ahh... fun |
| 17:14.02 | golinux | Devuan is about the most harmonious community I've ever experienced. |
| 17:14.30 | golinux | Not that there haven't been some forgettable moments |
| 17:16.11 | lkcl | golinux: :) |
| 17:16.52 | golinux | But on the whole egos stay out of the way thankfully |
| 17:17.25 | golinux | I've gotta run. Catch you later. |
| 17:17.48 | lkcl | golinux: k! |
| 17:17.57 | furrywolf | cyas |
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| 17:31.22 | hellekin | oh, *that* bob podolski... I think you mentioned him recently. |
| 17:31.56 | lkcl | hellekin: quite possibly :) |
| 17:32.23 | hellekin | honestly I see a terrible mismatch between the discourse and the act. Look at the members list: all white males. Doesn't make me want to jump this book up my reading list. |
| 17:33.14 | lkcl | hellekin: look beyond that. i'm currently *right now* on a conference call with him and some of the friends that i've introduced him to. |
| 17:33.24 | hellekin | It's because I have a long reading list, and also because I need to be recommended a book by at least two people I trust reading before I even consider opening it. |
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| 17:33.39 | lkcl | hellekin: there's myself, my partner marie, regina and her partner frank... most certainly not all white males! |
| 17:35.37 | hellekin | that's fine. I just finished a booklet by Gilles Clément : http://www.gillesclement.com/cat-tierspaysage-tit-le-Tiers-Paysage (sorry it's in French, but I'm willing to help translate it if it's not yet) |
| 17:36.26 | hellekin | lkcl: "Creativity Ethics Truth Peace Love Personal Evolution" are a good list of keywords. |
| 17:36.55 | lkcl | hellekin: do you have a clear definition of what "an ethical act" is? |
| 17:37.04 | hellekin | but I've seen generations of politicians abusing them. |
| 17:37.29 | hellekin | lkcl: I'm with Bernard Aspe to say that an act is necessarily ethical. |
| 17:37.35 | hellekin | otherwise it's not an act. |
| 17:37.53 | lkcl | hellekin: but have you seen a *clear definition* of what an ethical act *is*? |
| 17:38.10 | hellekin | well, no I don't "by definition". |
| 17:38.17 | lkcl | ok |
| 17:39.03 | lkcl | the clearest definition that i've encountered is, "an ethical act is one that increases truth, awareness love or creativity for one or more people (including yourself) WITHOUT decreasing the same for ANYONE". |
| 17:39.17 | lkcl | where T.A.L.C. may be viewed as being logically equivalent |
| 17:40.56 | lkcl | bob podolski was LITERALLY the first person EVER to present me with a clear definition that i could understand and accept |
| 17:40.59 | lkcl | i'm 46. |
| 17:41.06 | hellekin | my notion of ethics is not anthropomorphic. |
| 17:41.11 | lkcl | my parents failed to provide me with a definition |
| 17:41.34 | lkcl | the roman catholic jesuits from the boarding school that i went to for 7 years failed to provide me with a definition |
| 17:41.53 | hellekin | I think they were right. |
| 17:42.18 | hellekin | although I'm very not in favor of roman catholic anything. |
| 17:42.30 | furrywolf | all acts decrease it for someone |
| 17:42.37 | furrywolf | even if you just consume oxygen in the process |
| 17:43.11 | lkcl | furrywolf: that's just an energy transformation, not a consumption. |
| 17:44.58 | lkcl | furrywolf: bear in mind that bob (and his father) were prominent theoretical / particle physicists of their time |
| 17:45.02 | hellekin | furrywolf: given the high energy input from the sun, I don't think we can lack creativity, unless we let consumerism flatten our brains |
| 17:46.07 | lkcl | :) |
| 17:46.38 | hellekin | but honestly a definition of ethics based on such a nebulous concept as creativity, and putting it in balance like this with other people's creativity doesn't convince me. I can get what "creativity" means in the context of bio-diversity, and see what this "WITHOUT impeding other's creativity" would reflect in that context... |
| 17:47.31 | hellekin | lkcl: oh, so he may be familiar with the work of Prof. Basarab Nicolescu... Ask him! |
| 17:49.11 | hellekin | lkcl: in point 2.3.2 of the Bill of Ethics "since they increase oneâs ability to predict and control the environment" -> here we part ways. |
| 17:49.15 | hellekin | hold on, phone |
| 17:49.18 | lkcl | hellekin: i can only advocate what resonates with me and what i believe will help create a sound basis for devuan, but at the same time i haven't the time to go over every detail / nuance if there's resistance / scepticism. i simply haven't time... sorry hellekin if i'm being honest |
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| 17:52.34 | lkcl | hellekin: it's absolutely imperative to understand and fully accept - in your heart - the definition of an ethical act, first. and commit to it, whole-heartedly. without that, nothing that bob has researched for 30 years will resonate. at all. |
| 17:53.08 | lkcl | hellekin: i leave it with you to consider. |
| 17:53.36 | furrywolf | unfortunately, outside of books, every act harms someone somehow. |
| 17:53.52 | furrywolf | so you have to maximize benefits while minimizing harms. |
| 18:00.49 | lkcl | furrywolf: the reason why you believe that is because it's the "norm". is it ABSOLUTELY necessary to make decisions that are not made with love??? |
| 18:01.28 | lkcl | furrywolf: is it GENUINELY the case that you CANNOT take ANY action that is not based in love? |
| 18:02.03 | lkcl | furrywolf: i trust that you can see clearly from that reducto-ad-absurdum that what you believe is simply totally untrue |
| 18:02.10 | furrywolf | it is genuinely the case that I can not parse that line. |
| 18:02.11 | furrywolf | lol |
| 18:03.00 | lkcl | furrywolf: are there any actions that you could do which you HAVE to make WITHOUT love in your heart? |
| 18:03.49 | lkcl | furrywolf: i challenge you to come up with an example where you *ABSOLUTELY MUST* make a decision out of hate. |
| 18:04.24 | furrywolf | I fail to see how this is related to what I said. The most loving decision you could make will still harm others. |
| 18:04.42 | furrywolf | and love is local to the person. killing a thousand people to help someone you love won't make it any more right. |
| 18:05.27 | lkcl | furrywolf: i was simplifying. so now consider if you *HAVE* to make loving decisions that decrease truth, love, awareness or creativity for ANYONE |
| 18:05.49 | furrywolf | yes |
| 18:06.12 | furrywolf | is the simple answer. :) |
| 18:06.56 | lkcl | furrywolf: then we will agree to disagree. i cannot even take money from people who resent paying for my services... even if i've done the work for them, |
| 18:07.03 | furrywolf | ALL decisions harm someone somewhere, even if just the example I gave of turning oxygen into co2 and causing global warming... |
| 18:07.40 | lkcl | furrywolf: then you misunderstand (completely). or did not understand when i said that the example you gave is fundamentally flawed |
| 18:08.01 | lkcl | turning oxygen into co2 is a *transformation*. |
| 18:08.31 | lkcl | ok - enough. apologies but i have a lot to do. i'm going to have to leave you to make up your own mind, furrywolf |
| 18:08.47 | furrywolf | and killing all the (insert random racial minority here) will help stop global warming, provide natural fertilizer, help flowers bloom and the sun shine... |
| 18:09.09 | furrywolf | nothing is ever absolute. |
| 18:10.17 | lkcl | furrywolf: sorry, too many misunderstandings in that to have room in the devuan channel, also not enough time |
| 18:10.46 | furrywolf | lol |
| 18:11.47 | lkcl | sorry man, i'm dealing with a crowdfunding campaign - tons of things to do, currently setting up devuan on the eoma68-a20 so that someone can test it remotely |
| 18:12.03 | lkcl | they're thinking of setting up an ultra-low-power co-located hosting service |
| 18:12.04 | OmegaPhil | cheers |
| 18:12.47 | lkcl | OmegaPhil: lol |
| 18:13.10 | lkcl | just installed xrdp and it works great. |
| 18:13.22 | lkcl | in fact i think i'll do a video of it :) |
| 18:14.00 | furrywolf | for some background, I've love if what you said were true. we could all make decisions based on increasing the love in the world. I've even lived at a hippie commune. in the real world... it doesn't work. |
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| 18:15.19 | furrywolf | I have an off-grid house with zero co2 emissions. |
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| 18:15.42 | furrywolf | I make up for that by driving a big truck that guzzles gas. :P |
| 18:16.13 | lkcl | furrywolf: lol |
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| 18:21.37 | furrywolf | and I don't think off-grid solar actually reduces co2 emissons... my suspicion is more co2 is produced by manufacturing and recycling my batteries than would be produced generating the amount of electricity they store over their lifetime... |
| 18:22.56 | hellekin | lkcl: I'll leave you to consider that, beyond the fact I already told you why I think an "ethical act" is a pleonasm, I think Devuan is really not the place "to predict and control the environment". We may or may not agree on the importance of the heart and peace and love and what not, but I certainly cannot agree that someone holds the truth and cannot accept contradiction. |
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| 18:24.51 | lkcl | hellekin: apologies, again, just as i said to furrywolf, there are too many misunderstandings in what you've said for it to be appropriate for me to review them (esp. on devuan) and i really really apologise but i also simply don't have time to go over the misunderstandings with you |
| 18:26.02 | lkcl | hellekin: now, it's important to say (also to furrywolf) that that's *not* a personal criticism, it's just that... genuinely i am dealing with too much at the moment already |
| 18:27.14 | lkcl | so sorry! |
| 18:29.40 | hellekin | lkcl: you assume that you're right, I'm wrong, and I didn't understand your friend's theory. I assume that I'm well read and I can see that beyond the goodwill, there's a terrible lack of perspective, at least on your part. If you only stuck to what I told you first, that by definition (of an act, as I understand it), an "ethical act" is a pleonasm, you'd go a great length understand why I don't |
| 18:29.42 | hellekin | misunderstand what you're saying, but I disagree with the form (and not only that, but as you said, it's too long to share here.) |
| 18:30.28 | lkcl | hellekin: not at all - i'm miscommunicating.... and don't have time... yes. too long. sorry. |
| 18:32.36 | hellekin | as you were formed to catholic ethics, I can give you that: evil is an egotistic withdrawal into oneself. |
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| 19:24.45 | furrywolf | bbl, time for work |
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| 22:59.05 | golinux | fsmithred: mag |
| 22:59.14 | golinux | >msg |
| 23:21.52 | coagen | hello |
| 23:23.45 | golinux | Hello stranger! |
| 23:23.51 | MinceR | greetings, mortals |
| 23:24.10 | coagen | sup sup |
| 23:26.06 | golinux | Yawn |
| 23:38.03 | coagen | hmm i'm not finding the dialog package |
| 23:38.11 | coagen | on the raspian version |
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