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| 12:32.07 | stephanie | . |
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| 13:17.43 | aitor | Hi all :) |
| 13:18.28 | telst4r | hi there |
| 13:18.49 | aitor | Ok, now it works :) |
| 13:22.08 | golinux | Welcome! |
| 13:22.40 | Nick-nosystemd | it helps when you are on the right server ;) |
| 13:23.01 | golinux | aitor: Will be nice to have you hanging out here. |
| 13:23.10 | golinux | No kidding |
| 13:23.57 | aitor | Her i'm again doing the live impossible with my bad netiquetes :) |
| 13:27.19 | aitor | life :) |
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| 13:30.00 | aitor | I want to include JaroMail in Gnuinos server. Jaromil: i'll need your help... |
| 13:31.25 | aitor | I can build it without issues, but still didn't configure it... |
| 13:33.00 | golinux | aitor: Leaning time. I've sent your a private msg. You'' see it on your channel list |
| 13:33.21 | golinux | can't type today. Nothing new |
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| 13:35.26 | aitor | Golinux: i read it https://devuan.org/os/community#internet-relay-chat |
| 13:35.37 | golinux | good |
| 13:35.45 | golinux | Check your msg. |
| 13:36.09 | golinux | It will be under my nick |
| 13:42.32 | aitor | Golinux: i read your msg |
| 13:44.05 | sdaugherty | KatolaZ, thanks for inadvertently calling my attention to work I needed to do. :P |
| 13:44.48 | KatolaZ | np sdaugherty |
| 13:44.58 | KatolaZ | didn't know you were maintaining that page |
| 13:45.25 | KatolaZ | I think I have suggested it several times to self-declared IRC newbies, in the past |
| 13:46.04 | sdaugherty | It got passed off on me a while back, previous maintainer's too busy teaching medicine at Duke. |
| 13:47.48 | sdaugherty | I converted everything to Markdown and stuck it on Github a couple years back, and recently I was emailed about some problems, and found that there was still a bunch of work left to do, so I've been fairly active lately cleaning up messes. |
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| 13:49.45 | sdaugherty | There's a lot of similar basic IRC tutorials on the site - one day I might actually merge all of them together :P |
| 13:55.19 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 13:55.24 | KatolaZ | nice job, anyway |
| 13:55.36 | KatolaZ | and a useful one |
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| 14:06.33 | delirein | why is an installation failing at "Select software and install"? :/ |
| 14:06.58 | delirein | I'm installing from 1.0 dvd, stable repos and trying to install cinnamon DE |
| 14:07.21 | KatolaZ | delirein: do you have internet connection in the machine you are trying to install? |
| 14:07.30 | delirein | yes |
| 14:07.35 | delirein | ethernet |
| 14:08.37 | delirein | and base-system was set up succesfully |
| 14:08.45 | delirein | oh sorry, 1.0 cd |
| 14:10.15 | delirein | and it's failing almost instantly |
| 14:10.39 | delirein | I am marking "devuan DE" "...cinnamon" "print server" and "standard system utilities |
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| 14:14.11 | Akuli | delirein, if it doesn't work you can install another desktop, and make it look just like cinnamon |
| 14:14.48 | delirein | Akuli, I know that, I can as well install it later :D |
| 14:15.01 | KatolaZ | delirein: sorry but I can't help |
| 14:15.09 | delirein | But more important is why the installer fails :/ |
| 14:15.22 | Akuli | delirein, without selecting cinnamon? |
| 14:15.26 | KatolaZ | it should say something on the fourth console, BTW |
| 14:15.34 | Akuli | Ctrl+Alt+F4 |
| 14:15.37 | delirein | haven't tried yet |
| 14:15.43 | KatolaZ | yep |
| 14:15.50 | Akuli | is anyone actually running cinnamon on devuan? |
| 14:16.07 | delirein | okay, but how to come back to graphic installer |
| 14:16.15 | delirein | coz I need to confirm XD |
| 14:16.23 | Akuli | same as how you went away from with but F1 |
| 14:17.43 | delirein | dependency problems |
| 14:18.06 | delirein | task-cinnamon-desktop: depends: cinnamon-desktop-enviroinment is not going to be installed |
| 14:18.50 | Akuli | i guess cinnamon is using systemd stuff then |
| 14:19.09 | delirein | LXDE then :D |
| 14:19.18 | Akuli | i like mate |
| 14:19.57 | Akuli | my mate desktop http://pasteboard.co/4dmsMM3Vt.png |
| 14:19.58 | delirein | Mate is okay, I am used to lxde/lxqt though |
| 14:20.14 | delirein | looks nice :D |
| 14:21.26 | Lydia_K | morning |
| 14:25.15 | KatolaZ | Lydia_K: afternoon over here.... |
| 14:27.02 | Lydia_K | blasphamy! |
| 14:29.44 | KatolaZ | o_O |
| 14:32.05 | delirein | yaay lxde is installing |
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| 14:47.07 | furrywolf | hops on Lydia_K's lap |
| 14:51.30 | furrywolf | I like icewm. |
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| 15:03.44 | delirein | yaaay it's alive |
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| 15:15.38 | delirein | now only to set up everything |
| 15:18.00 | aitor | I've developed a windowmanager-logout in gtk, and i'll share it in the forum of BunsenLabs. I need the commands for the various existent WM. So, i'll open a new thread in the mailing list. |
| 15:18.50 | aitor | I also will need translators :) |
| 15:19.05 | delirein | I can translate to PL |
| 15:19.27 | delirein | :P |
| 15:19.31 | aitor | Thanks |
| 15:21.21 | aitor | Polish? |
| 15:22.23 | Nick-nosystemd | I can translate to Dutch if needed |
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| 15:23.09 | aitor | I can translate to basque |
| 15:24.02 | Akuli | how much translating is there? |
| 15:24.11 | Akuli | i'm guessing not much if its just a logout window? :) |
| 15:25.09 | aitor | I have more projects in gtk for august |
| 15:25.23 | Akuli | which programming language and gtk version are you using? |
| 15:25.56 | Akuli | once i helped jsfarinet here to make a simple logout window thingy in gtk using python |
| 15:26.02 | aitor | gtkmm3 and C/C++ |
| 15:27.40 | aitor | I decided not to use gtk+ an C. After all, LxQT is also developed in C++ |
| 15:29.23 | aitor | I'm registered in the Gtkmm Mailing List |
| 15:31.07 | aitor | The openbox-logout of bunsenlabs is developed in python by Corenominal |
| 15:38.10 | delirein | how safe is updating to testing? :D |
| 15:43.13 | Lydia_K | pets furrywolf |
| 15:43.58 | furrywolf | mrrf :) |
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| 15:54.59 | fsmithred | delirein, I recently did an upgrade from jessie to ascii without problems, but that was without xorg. I have libsystemd0 pinned, so I was unable to install xorg after the upgrade until I changed my pinning. |
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| 15:57.30 | furrywolf | xorg now depends on systemd crap? sigh. |
| 15:57.54 | Akuli | wat |
| 15:58.23 | Akuli | how about all the bsd users? debian hurd users? everyone else who can't run systemd? |
| 15:58.39 | fsmithred | yeah, xorg wants libsystemd0. I installed it, then I removed permission on the library, and xorg seems to work normally. |
| 15:58.45 | parazyd | it's just systemd bindings |
| 15:58.50 | parazyd | recompile without and you're set |
| 15:59.06 | fsmithred | good question, Akuli. I guess they're all supposed to migrate to linux. |
| 15:59.49 | fsmithred | yes, parazyd. I think there are already recompiled packages out there. |
| 16:00.17 | fsmithred | angband and antix nosystemd repos likely have it. |
| 16:00.22 | parazyd | Enable use of systemd-specific libraries and features like socket activation or session tracking |
| 16:00.24 | parazyd | yes, for sure |
| 16:00.39 | hellekin | Akuli: the world is flat. People can do whatever they want. s/flat/big/ ;o) |
| 16:01.35 | furrywolf | hrmm... there would be a good devuan feature. a loader that will load programs with missing libraries, that will work fine as long as none of the missing functions are called. |
| 16:02.45 | parazyd | they would probably get called if they're compiled in |
| 16:08.01 | furrywolf | and maybe some really-easy-to-add software support to see if some library is available at runtime. |
| 16:08.13 | Lydia_K | BSD and Hurd? Those are systemd OS's, they don't matter. |
| 16:08.16 | Lydia_K | *aren't |
| 16:08.47 | furrywolf | i.e. if(ldloaded("libsystemd0")) {dosomethinguneeded(); dosomethingdifferentlythanwhatworks();} |
| 16:09.25 | fbt | Is there even a way to load a lib in runtime? |
| 16:09.44 | furrywolf | sure. apache, etc do it for everything. |
| 16:09.48 | fbt | Hm. |
| 16:10.02 | fbt | Yeah, now that I think about it, some projects do it |
| 16:10.46 | furrywolf | I'm thinking more an easy-to-use version for optional system and third-party libraries, rather than objects specific to that program. |
| 16:11.07 | furrywolf | all the hard parts should be already written, just a way to use them with a lot less effort, and on more things. |
| 16:11.24 | furrywolf | gimp drags in pulseaudio, which very much annoys me. :) |
| 16:11.36 | Lydia_K | .... |
| 16:11.41 | Lydia_K | why does image editing need sound? |
| 16:11.47 | furrywolf | Lydia_K: it doesn't. |
| 16:12.18 | parazyd | emacs syncrome |
| 16:12.22 | parazyd | *syndrome |
| 16:12.25 | parazyd | hides |
| 16:13.45 | furrywolf | but it depends on a graphics library which depends on sdl which depends on pulse. |
| 16:14.19 | parazyd | we need PPAs |
| 16:14.27 | furrywolf | even though gimp will never access any of the sdl or audio features. |
| 16:15.12 | furrywolf | some type of easy-to-use interface for programs to load optional libraries at runtime would go a long way to shrinking the stupid amounts of dependencies some things have. |
| 16:16.17 | furrywolf | especially since many of the programs already have those dependencies as configure-time options... they'd just need to replace the ifdefs with if()s. |
| 16:17.15 | furrywolf | OR! I KNOW! Rather than direct calls, all programs should instead communicate over a standard message bus, with a central system daemon to coordinate them. :) |
| 16:17.16 | furrywolf | hides |
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| 16:19.18 | parazyd | i'd take statically compiled things over that every time |
| 16:19.32 | parazyd | just werkz (TM) |
| 16:19.43 | parazyd | maintain versions with git |
| 16:19.48 | parazyd | `git pull` to update application |
| 16:20.13 | muep | I think git would be quite wasteful for that |
| 16:20.19 | parazyd | not at all |
| 16:20.23 | muep | you would normally not need a copy of all the past versions |
| 16:20.26 | parazyd | very easy to switch versions |
| 16:20.36 | parazyd | with git checkout just choose a version you want |
| 16:20.55 | Akuli | how about compiled languages? you'd need make && make install every time. |
| 16:20.55 | furrywolf | in theory, the current version is better in every way to all prior versions, so you never need to do that. |
| 16:21.15 | furrywolf | or do you mean feature-based versions, not incremental versions? |
| 16:21.28 | parazyd | muep: also, disk space these days is basically unlimited and not a question of money |
| 16:21.54 | Akuli | if i have 10 git branches with the same content does it really take 10 times as much disk space? |
| 16:21.55 | muep | it isn't unlimited for me. and multi-gigabyte git repos are just slow to handle |
| 16:21.56 | parazyd | plus, git knows how to clean, so you can delete up to foo |
| 16:21.56 | Akuli | i doubt it does |
| 16:22.00 | muep | Akuli: no |
| 16:22.02 | parazyd | Akuli: nope |
| 16:22.05 | Akuli | right |
| 16:22.35 | parazyd | muep: people reported that git binary diffing became very good also |
| 16:22.36 | muep | but e.g. every single binary of "less" ever released would already be quite a lot |
| 16:23.19 | muep | I'd much prefer updating binaries with apt rather than git |
| 16:23.45 | parazyd | yes of course, just mentioning a concept |
| 16:23.53 | parazyd | also dynamic linking kills it completely |
| 16:24.00 | muep | how so? |
| 16:24.20 | parazyd | because then you depend on a library and can/cannot update |
| 16:24.54 | parazyd | i had an explanation in a irc log, will try to find it |
| 16:27.36 | muep | I think there could be ways to deal with the libs. e.g. just make a separate checkout for each one and install many libs |
| 16:28.24 | delirein | xorg depends on system - fakin wat |
| 16:29.13 | muep | why not xorg in particular? it is pretty low level stuff that interacts with other low level stuff |
| 16:30.37 | muep | especially if it is just libsystemd0, adding that does not prevent x.org from being used on systems that do not use systemd. and in general debian tends to enable all features of packages that they easily can |
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| 17:13.07 | Nick-nosystemd | the concept of ppa does sound a lot better to me then git pull |
| 17:14.16 | Nick-nosystemd | and because hdd space is cheap even a concept of containerizing sounds better to me then git |
| 17:14.43 | sdaugherty | They serve radically different purposes. |
| 17:14.51 | sdaugherty | Yes, there's some overlap. |
| 17:14.51 | Nick-nosystemd | i know |
| 17:15.52 | sdaugherty | but, yeah, I wouldn't use git to distribute "compiled" files |
| 17:15.55 | sdaugherty | that's kindof silly. |
| 17:17.29 | muep | IIRC rpi foundation distributes compiler toolchain binaries in a huge git repository and at least that is pretty inconvenient to use |
| 17:22.51 | parazyd | i dunno, checking out different versions is pretty cool |
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| 17:38.19 | sdaugherty | Getting back on topic, PPAs are a decent solution, but I'd like to see a better, possibly even distro-independent approach for third party software - including it in the distribution is both a major asset and a major downside. |
| 17:38.57 | sdaugherty | it would be much better if software projects handled their own packaging and software distribution. |
| 17:42.01 | muep | for software that is not too picky about its environment, I think even just plain tarballs are fine |
| 17:42.52 | muep | e.g. firefox binary releases from mozilla seem capable of working with different distributions |
| 17:43.07 | MinceR | there's AppImage |
| 17:43.17 | muep | and another large-ish program that seems to manage it is pycharm |
| 17:43.30 | MinceR | and there are several applications that have distro-independent binary distributions, like Xonotic |
| 17:47.17 | furrywolf | thinks distributing dozens of different binaries for different optional features is a very stupid idea. |
| 17:47.58 | furrywolf | dynamically loading libraries needed for optional features allows the user to use install the library for the feature they want to use, and all programs using that library then magically work. |
| 17:48.14 | muep | I think the debian approach of just enabling a large set of features at build-time is quite reasonable for a general-purpose binary distro |
| 17:49.13 | furrywolf | but we're devuan. let's do better. :) |
| 17:49.27 | furrywolf | debian systems tend to be stupidly bloated these days |
| 17:50.05 | furrywolf | like as I said before, gimp dragging in sdl and pulse audio, even though it uses exactly zero features of either. |
| 17:50.36 | tjackson | i was going to install xmlto.. but then i would had to install qt and a million other things ;) |
| 17:52.11 | furrywolf | I really don't think it would be that hard to replace most compile-time library-related options with runtime options, given a suitably friendly ld interface. |
| 17:52.27 | furrywolf | notes that sounds way too much like volunteering |
| 17:52.51 | gci_admin | thanks furrywolf for volunteering! ;) |
| 17:53.08 | muep | furrywolf: I am almost sure that you would need to alter code of most applications that use libraries |
| 17:53.33 | muep | and you might basically s/that use libraries// |
| 17:53.51 | furrywolf | muep: of course. but I don't think it would be hard. |
| 17:54.59 | muep | I think it would also be non-trivial. to the extent of being infeasible |
| 17:55.24 | furrywolf | most programs right now use some variation on #ifdef BLOATLIB ... #endif. they'd just need to be replaced with if(ldlib("bloat")){...} of some variety... |
| 17:55.57 | muep | would like to be proved wrong, but it is not trivial to turn compile-time optional stuff into runtime-optional |
| 17:59.39 | muep | e.g. gtk2 could not seem to do it without at least an ABI break. only gtk3 could work so that an application binary does not need to be changed when gtk3 uses something else than X11 to draw things |
| 18:00.40 | furrywolf | eh? I don't see how that's related. |
| 18:01.20 | furrywolf | this would be for a program that could normally be ./configure --without-x or some such. |
| 18:02.33 | muep | sometimes even headers of libraries depend on how they were built (like with gtk2 they did) |
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| 18:03.08 | muep | just saying that there are all kinds of weird things in applications and libraries |
| 18:03.16 | furrywolf | ok... so we'll standardize on using gtk2 that uses x, and the two people with different configurations can continue compiling manually. :) |
| 18:04.34 | muep | at least on my debian jessie installation, gimp does not seem to require pulseaudio to be installed |
| 18:04.37 | furrywolf | it'll take a more-friendly ld interface too... as I recall ldopen and friends are a bit annoying. |
| 18:04.43 | furrywolf | muep: it does on ascii |
| 18:04.52 | furrywolf | bloat increases with version, as a general rule. :) |
| 18:05.56 | muep | what is the exact chain to pulseaudio, though? at least libpulse0 only suggests pulseaudio |
| 18:06.04 | muep | in debian testing |
| 18:06.18 | furrywolf | it needs libpulse, not the actual daemon. |
| 18:07.30 | muep | well, then it is just the same as most other things that have optional support for selinux attrs, kerberos stuff, capabilities, wayland and whatnot |
| 18:07.44 | furrywolf | my scheme would require a modified version of ld that can be told that some libraries are optional, and to let the program segv if it tries using any calls to them... but that should be easy. |
| 18:08.42 | furrywolf | so code can be written normally, not dealing with dl handles... |
| 18:08.45 | furrywolf | ld |
| 18:08.49 | furrywolf | dl |
| 18:08.51 | furrywolf | is tired |
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| 18:16.40 | furrywolf | I can see in my head how all the various bits of this scheme would fit together... but I don't have all the skills needed to code it at this time, and I don't have the time either. sigh... |
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| 18:21.12 | delirein | I rebooted devuan |
| 18:21.27 | delirein | I think some f***ing app pulled pulseaudio and now I have no sound |
| 18:21.43 | furrywolf | remove it. :) |
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| 18:33.16 | delirein | rebooted |
| 18:33.20 | delirein | no valid sound driver lol |
| 18:33.24 | delirein | alsa fun once again |
| 18:33.53 | gci_admin | Sound is overrated. ;) |
| 18:34.59 | delirein | I'm tired of this, I am fighting for the second day to get fully working distro |
| 18:35.16 | delirein | any distro, without systmed |
| 18:35.36 | delirein | because something broke for me in void linux and I can't troubleshoot it |
| 18:36.25 | tjackson | in slackware the default /etc/asound.conf forces pulseaudio |
| 18:36.27 | gci_admin | delirein, well, Devuan is still beta1. So rough edges are expected. I imagine by the time a "1.0" release is ready you should be able to get what you wish. |
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| 18:36.53 | tjackson | i think void uses apulse? |
| 18:37.11 | delirein | I used alsa in void, purged apulse and wrote own config |
| 18:37.21 | delirein | but, since my hdd broke, I don't have a copy of it.... |
| 18:37.34 | gci_admin | Backups FTW. ;) |
| 18:38.00 | delirein | I have backups of about 90% of my stuff |
| 18:38.18 | delirein | Only configs and my encrypted partition was lost :/ |
| 18:38.20 | tjackson | what has always worked for me when libpulse or whatever gets pulled in is to edit /etc/pulse/client.conf and set autospawn = no |
| 18:38.48 | furrywolf | what has always worked for me is apt-get remove pulseaudio. :) |
| 18:39.00 | delirein | did that :d |
| 18:39.41 | delirein | scratches furrywolf behind ears |
| 18:40.09 | furrywolf | mrrf! :) |
| 18:40.20 | delirein | Sorry I just had to :D |
| 18:42.13 | furrywolf | it would be really nice if devuan made pulse go away. |
| 18:43.00 | delirein | It would be awesome |
| 18:44.42 | muep | it would be a shame if init switch would need to mean also getting rid of convenient switching between audio devices |
| 18:45.03 | furrywolf | ? |
| 18:45.47 | furrywolf | you found some part of pulse that's convenient other than it being the easiest way to produce silence? |
| 18:45.48 | delirein | In before pulseaudiod |
| 18:46.04 | delirein | as a part of systemd |
| 18:46.09 | muep | in my experience, without pulseaudio you either need the application able to select its output, or you need to configure some fixed output per-application |
| 18:46.48 | furrywolf | yes, which is how I have my three audio devices set up. I just select which alsa device to use in each application depending on where I want it to go to. |
| 18:47.01 | furrywolf | for example, xmms goes to the wall of speakers... |
| 18:47.04 | Akuli | if it's going to be changed i want devuan to come with a small program that has a button for switching between the two audio things |
| 18:48.01 | muep | with pulse, the user does not usually need to learn how to redirect output from each separate application |
| 18:48.36 | furrywolf | (16" 5-way, 14" 6-way, and 12" 3-way, sansui and pioneer... an excellent wall of speakers for listening to rock on. :) |
| 18:48.47 | delirein | wow, nice setup :D |
| 18:49.11 | furrywolf | with pulse, the user needs to figure out how the fuck to get ANY sound out of their system at all... which in my experience tends to involve configuring applications to output to alsa. |
| 18:49.40 | muep | I do not have any nice audio hardware, but I do like that I can first be doing some stuff that output audio and then add a bluetooth audio device and put the sound there without e.g. restarting audio applications or learning how each of them selects the output |
| 18:50.00 | muep | many applications do not actually include an UI for selecting the output. often they just use the alsa default |
| 18:51.25 | furrywolf | I have a creative extigy for the stereo... it's a usb sound box. which works much better under linux than windows, because windows is fucking defective and uses a linear volume control, as I found out when I tried using my windows-running cnc mill control box in my shop to run the stereo there. |
| 18:51.46 | furrywolf | I mean, seriously. we've been using logarithmic volume controls since, what, the '40s? |
| 18:53.41 | muep | it is unfortunate that pulseaudio does not cover all possible audio use cases, but I do not think plain alsa does either. at least with the currently available tools |
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| 18:54.00 | muep | which is why I think it would be shame if it had to go away completely |
| 18:54.06 | furrywolf | yes, pulseaudio does a very poor job covering the use case of "applications cause sound to be emitted". |
| 18:54.23 | muep | I think it mostly does the job just fine |
| 18:54.28 | furrywolf | I've only managed to get audio out of pulse a couple times. it's utter shit. |
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| 18:54.36 | aitor | I never use pulseaudio, i'm pure alsa |
| 18:54.41 | tjackson | i think alsa-plugins can redirect all alsa stuff to pulse |
| 18:54.52 | furrywolf | example: on a laptop with separate speaker and headphones amps, it can't switch between them. |
| 18:55.01 | muep | tjackson: that is how pulse is usually set up by default by distros that have it |
| 18:55.07 | furrywolf | example: with an external usb sound device, it's stupidly difficult to get audio to it |
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| 18:55.21 | furrywolf | example: generally it just doesn't work, with absolutely no indications as to why. |
| 18:55.24 | muep | with the external usb devices I have, it is trivially easy |
| 18:55.54 | muep | basically just plug the thing in and it is available as an output in audio preferences |
| 18:56.36 | furrywolf | nothing I've used has an "audio preferences" that does anything automatically with pulse. |
| 18:56.50 | furrywolf | normally it involves manually reverse-engineering some gstreamer output path or other stupid shit |
| 18:57.34 | muep | pulse ships the pavucontrol UI for that. and gnome settings have another UI for it. and KDE kmix has yet another |
| 18:58.03 | furrywolf | I use neither kde nor gnome. |
| 18:58.18 | tjackson | would be cool if alsamixer had more than a single mixer for pulse |
| 18:58.22 | muep | so could use pavucontrol. and I think even xfce has some pulseaudio support |
| 18:58.22 | furrywolf | I like my system to work. :) |
| 18:58.32 | muep | so far I have not even needed to know what gstreamer is to work with it (though I do roughly know what it is) |
| 18:58.51 | aitor | There is a pnmixer... |
| 18:59.08 | tjackson | if it's ncurses i might try it someday |
| 18:59.33 | tjackson | fighting the man is exhausting |
| 18:59.41 | muep | I'm not saying that pulse always works perfectly. but with distros that set it up well by default, I find it really common to have audio working without special tricks |
| 19:00.32 | aitor | I never use pulseaudio :) |
| 19:01.01 | muep | that is just fine. but it would still be a shame to have it completely go away |
| 19:01.58 | furrywolf | I usually give up getting any sound out of pulseaudio, wonder why the fuck it's the default, set up alsa, and have working sound. |
| 19:02.58 | furrywolf | bbl, time for work |
| 19:04.35 | aitor | You can build xfce4-mixer removing the xfce4-panel dependency from debian/control if you use a window-manager |
| 19:07.57 | gci_admin | There is no pulseaudio on my FreeBSD workstation. Audio works fine there. If I plug in headphones, front or rear, they work. When I unplug them the speakers work. One caveat is I do not use USB for audio. |
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| 19:09.15 | muep | what steps would allow you to switch an application to usb output if you bought one? and would it differ much if you picked a bluetooth output device instead? |
| 19:12.42 | gci_admin | muep, well, this is a tower workstation sitting at my desk. I am unlikely to do that with this workstation. FTR, I would not use USB devices for sound on my netbook either. I also don't use Bluetooth on anything. I am all about analog jack or nothing. ;) |
| 19:13.58 | gci_admin | My netbook will be running Devuan as soon as there are ISO available that do not requre a live network to install. |
| 19:14.11 | muep | gci_admin: many users would want that even if you would not. I'd want those especially with my laptop. I was just curious if freebsd or some other non-pulseaudio setup provides a convenient set of tools for such a situation |
| 19:15.37 | davide_at_debian | I guess you can mute one output from alsamixer, then unmute the USB card. At least on my notebook that's what I do to switch from headphones to speakers. |
| 19:16.28 | muep | normally output goes to just one device at a time, though I guess you could set things up so that many are used simultaneously |
| 19:17.16 | davide_at_debian | I can ensure you that I experienced some weird stuff from my computer. I definitely can have audio on all outputs concurrently. |
| 19:18.15 | gci_admin | muep, understood. My primary use case of Linux distributions and Unix is as servers with no sound needed at all. On my Unix workstation and personal Linux distribution portable devices I don't want anything "fancy" in regard to sound. Plus, I am a huge "Not A Fan" of anything Lennart 'Iknowbetterthanyou' Poettering has touched. |
| 19:26.54 | fsmithred | gci_admin, you could install the unofficial devuan-live. It's the beta plus a few packages. |
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| 19:27.30 | delirein | update: pulseaudio on void is pulled only if the enviroinment needs it |
| 19:27.32 | gci_admin | fsmithred, yes I could. Thanks for the reminder! |
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| 19:28.01 | gci_admin | fsmithred, does that allow for making a custom partition layout? |
| 19:29.34 | gci_admin | is planning on backing up /home and redoing his partitions on the netbook |
| 19:29.45 | fsmithred | within limits. You can have separate /boot, /home and then at the end you can move a dir to its own partition. I can't remember if you can do that last bit more than once. |
| 19:30.00 | fsmithred | also allows encryption, but no lvm. |
| 19:30.33 | Akuli | wait... does debian have a live iso? |
| 19:30.42 | Akuli | i've somehow thought it has, but i'm not actually sure |
| 19:30.45 | fsmithred | Akuli, you mean devuan? |
| 19:30.52 | Akuli | i mean debian |
| 19:30.52 | davide_at_debian | It's called netinst. |
| 19:30.59 | fsmithred | or is debian-live completely dead? |
| 19:31.02 | OmegaPhil | Debian does, theres an XFCE4 livecd I think |
| 19:31.05 | gci_admin | I don't use partition / disk level encryption and I do like to use LVM. So, I will have to ponder that. |
| 19:31.06 | Akuli | something that loads a whatever desktop when you boot it |
| 19:31.06 | muep | https://www.debian.org/CD/live/ |
| 19:31.11 | OmegaPhil | Although I don't knwo if it kept being maintained |
| 19:31.12 | Akuli | like what ubuntu-based distros usually have |
| 19:31.40 | fsmithred | yeah, there's debian-live. I have an iso right here. |
| 19:31.47 | fsmithred | 8.2 |
| 19:32.06 | fsmithred | don't know if there are newer ones. This was from last September |
| 19:32.42 | fsmithred | gci_admin, https://sourceforge.net/projects/refracta/files/unofficial_devuan_live/ |
| 19:33.04 | gci_admin | Thanks, fsmithred. |
| 19:33.27 | fsmithred | I got the theme mostly right, but if you change the icons, golinux will be happy. |
| 19:35.54 | TwistedFate | When I install Devuan beta XFCE, is there something I need to do after the installation or it will run and update/upgrade fine? |
| 19:36.01 | TwistedFate | Without the systemd ofc |
| 19:36.44 | fsmithred | debian-live is up to 8.5. I see kde, lxde, xfce and noname (gnome) |
| 19:37.22 | fsmithred | TwistedFate, it will pull packages from the repo. No need to update/upgrade right after install. |
| 19:42.41 | fsmithred | hm. The debian-live iso I have is cinnamon, but I don't see that at the download site. |
| 19:48.15 | tjackson | fsck.fat (when run manually) reports errors such as dirty bit set on my /boot (efi) on every reboot and i'm not really sure how to address it |
| 19:48.16 | tjackson | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:48.25 | tjackson | oh, sorry for blank lines |
| 19:49.45 | delirein | tjackson, are you running it on unmounted partition or not? |
| 19:50.59 | tjackson | my kernels are there so it must be mounted.. not sure about this because i never used /boot before, just / , and first time using efi too due to the extra layer of complexity |
| 19:52.18 | tjackson | actually mount command only shows /boot/efi |
| 19:53.50 | delirein | fsck is recommened not to be run on mounted drives |
| 19:55.44 | tjackson | hm i think that was the problem, fsck doesn't complain when it's unmounted. sorry for the noise |
| 19:55.54 | delirein | no problem ;) |
| 19:58.43 | fsmithred | boot partition and efi partition are separate things |
| 19:59.00 | fsmithred | that should be /boot |
| 19:59.16 | fsmithred | and you can unmount the efi partiton after you boot |
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| 20:04.48 | TwistedFate | crap, i thought devuan has live boot, will have to postpone testing then :( |
| 20:05.17 | fsmithred | live-boot package or you mean a live iso? |
| 20:05.52 | fsmithred | TwistedFate, ^^^ |
| 20:06.20 | TwistedFate | yes |
| 20:08.11 | fsmithred | live-boot package is in devuan, and at this time, there's only an unofficial live iso of the beta |
| 20:09.22 | fsmithred | brb |
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| 20:15.18 | fsmithred | TwistedFate, do you have room to install it in a VM? |
| 20:15.44 | TwistedFate | fsmithred, i do, but i need it on real hw for something |
| 20:16.02 | fsmithred | well, I could walk you through making your own live iso |
| 20:17.36 | TwistedFate | fsmithred, is it difficult and does it require a lot of time? |
| 20:17.49 | fsmithred | no, and no |
| 20:18.20 | fsmithred | install devuan in VM. I like virtualbox, but there are others. If you don't know any, then there's some more time involved. |
| 20:18.23 | TwistedFate | does it require gnu/linux os? |
| 20:18.34 | fsmithred | no, there's vbox for windows |
| 20:18.47 | TwistedFate | the process i meant |
| 20:18.52 | TwistedFate | but i see it does |
| 20:19.11 | fsmithred | then you install refractasnapshot from deb file |
| 20:19.16 | fsmithred | what does what? |
| 20:19.31 | TwistedFate | the creation of live iso |
| 20:19.31 | fsmithred | now I'm lost. |
| 20:19.34 | TwistedFate | sorry |
| 20:19.34 | fsmithred | yes |
| 20:19.36 | TwistedFate | im in a game |
| 20:19.41 | fsmithred | it's created from the installation |
| 20:19.43 | TwistedFate | hence the short msgs xd |
| 20:19.55 | fsmithred | if you install devuan beta, it'll make a live iso of devuan beta |
| 20:20.10 | fsmithred | if you change stuff in the installation, it'll copy that to the iso |
| 20:21.49 | fsmithred | install vbox in win, install devuan inside vbox, install refractasnapshot in devuan, then 'apt-get -f install' to get a few dependencies, then run refractasnapshot, then copy the iso to bootable media. |
| 20:22.35 | fsmithred | or download the one I made in May - https://sourceforge.net/projects/refracta/files/unofficial_devuan_live/ |
| 20:23.07 | fsmithred | brb |
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| 20:30.36 | TwistedFate | fsmithred, thanks, i will try that |
| 20:30.58 | fsmithred | yw, if you have any trouble, just ask |
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