| 00:03.51 | fsmithred | soon - talking IRL |
| 00:03.57 | figlfdev | excellent! i found your reply "This represents no change in plan whatsoever. Refracta is based on pure devuan. In jessie, yad is from outside, but in ascii, I believe it's in the repo," |
| 00:04.40 | golinux | hi figlfdev |
| 00:05.10 | figlfdev | well ive got 30 minutes or so, if flrn is here. i also answered his question (which hes probably figured out anyway) here: http://refracta.freeforums.org/fig-os-chained-or-joined-t591.html |
| 00:05.13 | figlfdev | hey golinux |
| 00:05.30 | golinux | Thee was a BIG 'event' and webchat got put on a list |
| 00:05.37 | golinux | There |
| 00:06.58 | figlfdev | oh yeah i found it :) |
| 00:06.59 | golinux | And here |
| 00:07.10 | golinux | Hehehe |
| 00:07.14 | figlfdev | so how am i chatting here? this is btw, how i always chat here |
| 00:07.22 | figlfdev | you can block it, but it will block me too |
| 00:07.49 | golinux | jaroml and buZz did the deed |
| 00:07.55 | golinux | jaromil |
| 00:08.04 | golinux | duh can't type |
| 00:08.05 | figlfdev | i dont blame them. they obviously decided it was wise to lift it later (that was nice ty) |
| 00:08.28 | buZz | wat |
| 00:08.32 | figlfdev | im mostly mentioning it in case it gets blocked for longer and you dont find me online :) |
| 00:08.37 | buZz | WHO DO I NEED TO BAN |
| 00:08.46 | figlfdev | but i would still be reachable from the refracta forums |
| 00:08.55 | figlfdev | buZz: i think you can stand down, but its your call :) |
| 00:09.17 | golinux | no one someone is here who uses webchat regularly |
| 00:09.42 | figlfdev | can actually parse that |
| 00:09.45 | fsmithred | back. hi golinux figlfdev |
| 00:09.48 | figlfdev | wb |
| 00:10.22 | figlfdev | i found your replies, they are reassuring (and not surprising) |
| 00:10.54 | figlfdev | i take it for granted that refracta is devuan-based now, im glad im not wrong :) |
| 00:11.03 | fsmithred | good, yes. |
| 00:11.24 | golinux | Yeah, I saw that post too |
| 00:11.37 | fsmithred | right now, I'm experimenting with different window managers in preparation for when xfce goes over the edge. |
| 00:11.58 | Lydia_K | fsmithred: try openbox |
| 00:11.59 | fsmithred | could be years, could be weeks. Can't tell anymore. |
| 00:11.59 | figlfdev | you think it will? its been a stalwart companion through the avalanche |
| 00:12.19 | fsmithred | Lydia_K, the first nosystemd build of refracta used openbox, lxpanel, lxterminal and spacefm |
| 00:12.22 | figlfdev | dont give up yet. or just use icewm :) |
| 00:12.47 | fsmithred | I can't find that purple background in the ascii icewm |
| 00:12.56 | figlfdev | im happy with evilwm, though i cant imagine golinux enjoying it |
| 00:13.00 | fsmithred | same theme shows black |
| 00:13.04 | fsmithred | lol |
| 00:13.27 | figlfdev | seriously, i consider users like golinux all the time-- people who want SOME semblance of familiarity. |
| 00:13.35 | fsmithred | if the situation gets too bad, we can start using exegnu |
| 00:13.48 | figlfdev | thats why i was sad when gnome 2 went to 3. mate took a while, and debian was unsupportive. |
| 00:14.10 | figlfdev | if you use exegnu, then the situation WILL be bad. might as well use mac system 7 then. |
| 00:14.28 | figlfdev | i loved kde 3.5, best kde ever. but i wont go back to it (no problem, i will just use icewm.) |
| 00:14.37 | fsmithred | there was one release of debian a couple years ago that had xfce4 as the default desktop. It was a single person's decision, and it didn't last. |
| 00:14.38 | figlfdev | by all means, use openbox then. |
| 00:14.55 | figlfdev | oh yeah, i had that version of debian. right before i switched to devuan :) |
| 00:15.28 | golinux | fsmithred: It was suggested that xfce would be default but it never happened |
| 00:15.31 | fsmithred | well, some of the last versions of exe started with the refracta nox iso and then got trinity |
| 00:15.33 | figlfdev | i dont recommend kde 3.5 for the primary de for anything (except exegnu.) but its your distro. |
| 00:15.48 | golinux | I loathe kde period. |
| 00:16.11 | golinux | Ditto trinity. |
| 00:16.17 | fsmithred | lol, I used it for a long time. I like konqueror file manager. |
| 00:16.29 | fsmithred | but I got tired of having to reboot every couple weeks. |
| 00:16.42 | figlfdev | i loved rms gnu/linux (slax+linux/libre) and knew the devs, but it folded |
| 00:17.01 | figlfdev | it used kde 3.5, i put it on my fsf membership usb card. but that was over half a decade ago |
| 00:17.38 | fsmithred | half a decade is a couple of naps ago. |
| 00:18.15 | figlfdev | i think icewm is less dated than kde 3.5, put it that way. but not for kde fans-- for "users." |
| 00:18.52 | figlfdev | but thats just imo. its not like i will have a fit if you switch to kde (but i cant control golinux if she does) |
| 00:19.41 | fsmithred | I want to move toward less work for myself. |
| 00:19.53 | figlfdev | you should automate more :) |
| 00:20.01 | figlfdev | i think youve been heading that way anyway |
| 00:20.12 | figlfdev | just keep at it, pretty soon you wont have to do anything ;) |
| 00:20.18 | fsmithred | lol |
| 00:20.22 | figlfdev | knows what a lie that is |
| 00:20.40 | figlfdev | devuan: not doing anything for 2 years now, and getting really amazing at it |
| 00:20.50 | figlfdev | ^ but actually doing one hell of a lot |
| 00:20.58 | figlfdev | possibly two |
| 00:21.32 | golinux | fsmithred: Less wok is always a good thing |
| 00:21.33 | fsmithred | yeah, I still have the terminal output here - told someone earlier, there are 57 devuan packages on this box |
| 00:22.00 | figlfdev | whats the process for refracta like now? how much is scripted, how much is "moving little icons around and hitting remaster" |
| 00:22.09 | fsmithred | and I can run without any systemd componenets (ignoring udev) |
| 00:22.26 | figlfdev | well udev will be fixed upstream, so thats cool |
| 00:22.53 | fsmithred | package installation is scripted, but it never seems to work, because the package names change from release to release |
| 00:23.00 | figlfdev | hmm |
| 00:23.07 | fsmithred | most of the config file edits are scripted |
| 00:23.09 | figlfdev | how many scripts? (would love if it was one) |
| 00:23.15 | fsmithred | one right now |
| 00:23.21 | figlfdev | is it public? |
| 00:23.25 | fsmithred | and I mostly copy/paste sections |
| 00:23.36 | fsmithred | no, but I've thought about making a kit. |
| 00:23.50 | fsmithred | so that I don't have to do it. |
| 00:24.00 | figlfdev | let me know when its public. dont be proud, pride will only make your life difficult |
| 00:24.38 | figlfdev | oh no ones offering take it over :) maybe it can be enhanced. |
| 00:24.57 | figlfdev | only a fool would take over a script they havent even looked at |
| 00:25.24 | fsmithred | hang on |
| 00:27.12 | figlfdev | (maybe if we can make fsrs tasks easier we can rope him into doing them for longer) |
| 00:27.31 | fsmithred | https://gist.github.com/fsmithred/d438d266f769d043973ecfacc4497fdf |
| 00:27.40 | figlfdev | devuan is a huge inspiration imo, regarding automation. i watched a video over a year on automating more of debian |
| 00:28.00 | figlfdev | looks like devuan is using some of that (whether for seeing the video or simply having similar goals) |
| 00:29.04 | figlfdev | this looks very straightforward. where does it fail? |
| 00:29.16 | figlfdev | ^ its possible im being optimistic |
| 00:30.00 | fsmithred | as I said, the list of packages contains bogus names with each major release |
| 00:30.05 | fsmithred | so I have to edit |
| 00:30.33 | fsmithred | and I commented out the file repo for the nox version, 'cause there's no sense in adding graphical stuff |
| 00:31.38 | figlfdev | so i think its possible to automate the bogus names to be real ones-- thats not too hard. |
| 00:31.39 | fsmithred | it's pretty good the way it is, but I screwed up and used it wrong the last time. I should have aborted when the package installation failed. |
| 00:32.03 | figlfdev | id rather automate that than do it manually even once. |
| 00:32.51 | fsmithred | oh, some of the commented stuff is only for debootstrap install. Setting usename and passwords. |
| 00:33.00 | figlfdev | im ignoring the comments for the moment |
| 00:33.12 | figlfdev | after all they dont do anything, perhaps they are supposed to |
| 00:33.30 | fsmithred | yeah, some of them, if that's what you want. |
| 00:33.56 | fsmithred | sudo for network is commented out. That's something I might add or make optional. |
| 00:33.56 | figlfdev | so if i run this as-is, does it totally fail? whats the process of making this work for a single use |
| 00:34.07 | figlfdev | edit the packages... and... ? |
| 00:35.04 | fsmithred | install devuan, at tasksel, un-check desktop and check ssh-server. I un-check print server, too, but end up adding it to the final desktop version. |
| 00:35.22 | fsmithred | then boot into new system, get root and run the script. |
| 00:36.00 | fsmithred | note the early exit - before installing xorg and all other graphical stuff. Re-enable that if you want. |
| 00:36.21 | figlfdev | all i really want to do right now is figure out how to make it so you dont have to edit package names |
| 00:36.39 | fsmithred | um |
| 00:36.44 | figlfdev | or that if you do, the quantity is in the single-digit (hopefully single-hand) range |
| 00:37.05 | fsmithred | you'll need AI to figure out the translations. |
| 00:37.23 | fsmithred | I think the list that's there is good now. |
| 00:37.29 | figlfdev | can i have an example of a tricky one? |
| 00:37.44 | figlfdev | one that would require ai |
| 00:39.27 | fsmithred | sorry, I can't remember which package no longer exists. |
| 00:39.48 | fsmithred | oh, I think ntfs-tools or something like that disappeared between wheezy and jessie |
| 00:39.50 | figlfdev | make one up for illustrative purposes? |
| 00:39.58 | figlfdev | ah |
| 00:40.56 | figlfdev | is updating for apt-cache |
| 00:41.05 | fsmithred | and I did notice an error just now - what I posted still lists the 3.16 kernel. That should be changed. |
| 00:42.00 | fsmithred | what might be good is to put the package install inside a function and make it possible to run it again without exiting the script. |
| 00:42.25 | figlfdev | thats a good idea |
| 00:42.29 | fsmithred | if you figure out a way to automatically edit the list of files |
| 00:42.35 | fsmithred | based on the failures |
| 00:42.38 | figlfdev | so apt-cache search ntfs-tools turns up nothing, which goes with what you said |
| 00:42.55 | figlfdev | so the solution for devuan is to what, drop it from the list? because that wont take ai :) |
| 00:43.09 | figlfdev | s/devuan/refracta/ |
| 00:43.11 | fsmithred | devuan? |
| 00:43.14 | figlfdev | ^ |
| 00:43.18 | fsmithred | ok |
| 00:44.03 | figlfdev | i think automatically editing the list of files is probably doable, trying to get a feel for that process |
| 00:44.15 | figlfdev | trying to figure out the hardest thing about it, see if that can be done. |
| 00:45.05 | figlfdev | so far, updating to the latest kernel version right? and turning that into an installable package name. and figuring out a package isnt there anymore, and dropping it from the list. |
| 00:45.07 | fsmithred | E: Unable to locate package notapackage |
| 00:45.43 | figlfdev | its easy enough to parse every package name, run apt-cache search, and drop it if nothing comes up. |
| 00:46.33 | figlfdev | this manual editing of package names is one thing id like to be able to automate for you as much as possible. |
| 00:46.55 | figlfdev | i cant promise perfection, but even if it makes 95% of the changes for you... |
| 00:47.09 | figlfdev | then you throw in your stop/repeat-on-fail function |
| 00:47.39 | figlfdev | you then have to edit one or two names, in theory. |
| 00:47.49 | fsmithred | yeah, that would help |
| 00:48.13 | figlfdev | the more details i get about the process you do manually, the better the automation would be. on the forum or forum pm |
| 00:48.34 | figlfdev | pretend im not familiar with package installation-- or pretend im an EXPERT in installation, which im not. |
| 00:48.44 | fsmithred | well, really, I only have to do this the first time I start a new release |
| 00:48.44 | figlfdev | but do one of those, for the sake of being thorough. |
| 00:49.01 | figlfdev | but thats the annoying part, right? i mean whats the part you hate doing again? |
| 00:49.20 | figlfdev | cause we may need an ai to figure that out, unless you tell us :) |
| 00:50.09 | fsmithred | configuring the desktop is a much bigger task |
| 00:50.26 | fsmithred | oh, setting the mime types is not scripted |
| 00:50.49 | figlfdev | maybe pm me with the tasks involved in creating refracta, from most annoying/tedious to least. |
| 00:50.59 | fsmithred | file associations for programs, which is default to open what |
| 00:50.59 | figlfdev | maybe we can make the next release easier. |
| 00:51.08 | fsmithred | cool, thanks. |
| 00:51.15 | figlfdev | and by pm i mean on the forum |
| 00:51.19 | fsmithred | yeah |
| 00:51.20 | figlfdev | youre extremely welcome of course |
| 00:51.30 | figlfdev | i hope i can do Something at least. |
| 00:52.10 | figlfdev | youll still have a job to do, this is just about making it less annoying |
| 00:52.12 | fsmithred | ok, time for food |
| 00:52.19 | figlfdev | ciao... or should i say chow? |
| 00:52.20 | fsmithred | lol, yes. |
| 00:52.27 | fsmithred | see you later |
| 00:52.48 | figlfdev | c[ih][ao][ow] |
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| 01:20.28 | furrywolf | cioo? chaw? :P |
| 01:20.57 | figlfdev | no |
| 01:20.58 | furrywolf | goes back to doing useful things... ciaw! |
| 01:22.00 | figlfdev | for p in $(echo ciao chow) ; do echo $p | grep "c[ih][ao][ow]" ; done |
| 01:22.01 | figlfdev | :P |
| 01:23.31 | figlfdev | (technically your combinations would work there too) |
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| 01:27.03 | furrywolf | wtf. I ordered something on ebay. it came $1.20 postage due. it's in a flat-rate envelope, with a pre-printed stamps.com label for a flat-rate envelope. |
| 01:27.56 | figlfdev | so they screwed up the postage? |
| 01:28.39 | furrywolf | how could stamps.com screw up the postage on a flat-rate envelope? that's the whole point of the flat-rate packages, that you don't need to figure the postage... |
| 01:29.36 | figlfdev | "this ones already got postage on it." ... "yeah but not enough" ... "eh, whos gonna know?" |
| 01:29.54 | figlfdev | maybe the rates changed en route :) |
| 01:30.43 | figlfdev | they charge extra if it goes through the bermuda triangle, gets lost and found again |
| 01:30.57 | figlfdev | but they dont KNOW it will happen until it does |
| 01:31.11 | furrywolf | sends the seller a nasty email |
| 01:32.19 | furrywolf | the part also isn't suitable for the advertised purpose without modification. yay ebay. |
| 01:35.37 | *** join/#devuan Inocuous (~Inocuous@151-118-181-66.dsl.sacoriver.net) |
| 01:37.45 | figlfdev | "the part also isn't suitable for the advertised purpose without modification." i wondered who wrote this in my reviews! |
| 01:39.14 | figlfdev | good luck with the email. (ciaw) :) |
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| 02:34.32 | furrywolf | from what I'm finding reading, there's a few dickhead postal employees who get pissed off when a flat-rate envelope that isn't flat passes through their post office, and raise the postage. |
| 02:36.04 | furrywolf | every time this goes up the management chain it gets ruled incorrect, as official usps policy is as long as the envelope is not modified and the flap shuts normally, it's ok. |
| 02:36.36 | furrywolf | this flat-rate envelope was square with a box tightly packed in it, however it was not modified and was closed normally. |
| 02:45.19 | qmr | IF IT FITS IT SHIPS BITCH! |
| 02:46.55 | furrywolf | yep |
| 03:21.19 | golinux | Hey buZz ^^^ |
| 03:22.47 | buZz | wat |
| 03:23.09 | buZz | i see no ban reasons |
| 03:23.12 | golinux | see above |
| 03:23.29 | golinux | ? |
| 03:23.54 | buZz | who cares what furrywolf has for shipping issues |
| 03:24.01 | buZz | or isnt that what you ment |
| 03:24.37 | golinux | Ah, I should have checked the logs. Can't see FW here. |
| 03:24.49 | golinux | Sorry to bother you |
| 03:24.56 | buZz | i havent checked log |
| 03:25.06 | buZz | just last 20 lines |
| 03:25.26 | golinux | Yeah, |
| 03:25.43 | golinux | I have FW on ignore . . . |
| 03:25.45 | buZz | np |
| 03:26.00 | ksx4system | o_O |
| 03:26.19 | buZz | dont fear highlighting me for any false positive |
| 03:26.44 | golinux | gets back to audio editing |
| 03:26.52 | golinux | OK |
| 03:26.54 | ksx4system | golinux: before you go... I've heard "ban" - was there another systemd troll? |
| 03:27.41 | golinux | Not a systemd troll . A lunatic troll |
| 03:27.57 | buZz | those are common |
| 03:29.36 | furrywolf | and overlapping. |
| 03:30.11 | buZz | boobs++ |
| 03:30.58 | furrywolf | ... |
| 03:35.37 | furrywolf | sets another puppy on golinux's head then wanders off to work on cars before it's entirely dark out |
| 03:36.03 | ksx4system | dark? there's a fscking sunrise :P |
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| 03:44.49 | *** join/#devuan Vall (~Vall@2602:ffda:ccc:1::d2fe:5848) |
| 03:45.20 | Vall | Howdy everyone. Any timetable for Devuan "gold" (ie, not beta)? |
| 03:52.32 | fsmithred | Vall, in that respect, same as debian... "when it's ready" |
| 03:52.44 | Vall | fsmithred: Ok ;-) |
| 03:52.48 | fsmithred | beta2 maybe in a month or so |
| 03:52.53 | Vall | great! |
| 03:52.57 | fsmithred | based on rumors I've heard |
| 03:53.04 | Vall | Thanks fsmithred |
| 03:53.20 | Vall | An estimate is always good to help planning |
| 03:53.36 | Vall | I would really like to move most of my VMs to Devuan before the year is oyut |
| 03:53.40 | Vall | *out |
| 03:54.03 | Vall | but for some it will be really needed to have a non-beta Devuan |
| 03:54.07 | Vall | (customers, etc) |
| 03:55.57 | buZz | boobs |
| 03:56.20 | buZz | puts boobs on furrywolf's head |
| 04:00.19 | ksx4system | Vall: it's beta right now but it seems to be *really* stable |
| 04:00.23 | ksx4system | uses it on servers too |
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| 04:42.10 | furrywolf | heh, jwz has yet another systemd-related blog entry. |
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| 10:20.46 | sn0wmonster | https://dribbble.com/shots/2870061-DuckDuckD-oh |
| 10:20.52 | sn0wmonster | woops wrong channel |
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| 11:46.09 | MinceR | oh, jwz's brain damage has progressed to the point where he can't tell the difference between linux and systemd |
| 11:46.20 | MinceR | apple. Not Even Once. |
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| 11:56.55 | LongHairedHacker | jwz ? |
| 11:57.27 | MinceR | jamie zawinski |
| 11:57.57 | MinceR | used to contribute to mozilla and xemacs, wrote xscreensaver |
| 11:58.05 | MinceR | then turned into a crApple drone |
| 12:02.34 | LongHairedHacker | okay the full name rings a bell |
| 12:06.39 | fsmithred | he designed the April 1 xscreensaver nag screen that displayed a lack of understanding about how linux distributions work. |
| 12:22.30 | zdzichu | MinceR: you mean this weirh screensaver unlocking post? |
| 12:23.47 | zdzichu | weird |
| 12:30.11 | MinceR | yes |
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| 13:55.42 | fsmithred | ping hellekin |
| 13:56.02 | hellekin | pong fsmithred |
| 13:56.08 | fsmithred | hi |
| 13:56.23 | fsmithred | I have a project on git.do that I don't know where it came from |
| 13:56.34 | fsmithred | devuan-for-review/logoutd |
| 13:56.34 | hellekin | fsmithred: which one? |
| 13:56.40 | fsmithred | can I delete it? |
| 13:56.44 | hellekin | hmmm |
| 13:56.51 | fsmithred | or does someone want it? |
| 13:57.05 | fsmithred | or move it to a place for orphaned projects? |
| 13:57.36 | fsmithred | the scope of that project is way beyond my knowledge - separate logind from the rest of systemd |
| 13:57.49 | hellekin | fsmithred: what do you mean by "I have" |
| 13:58.11 | hellekin | AFAIK this is dimkr's project |
| 13:58.12 | fsmithred | when I log in, it's showing up as one of my projects |
| 13:59.20 | hellekin | "fsmithred joined project" ?? |
| 13:59.21 | fsmithred | I had a second project listed, and I know where that one came from - I created it by accident, trying to list an issue regarding backports priority. I re-posted that in the right place (I think.) |
| 13:59.38 | fsmithred | ok, maybe that's what happened |
| 14:00.04 | fsmithred | so... when I de |
| 14:00.08 | fsmithred | oh! |
| 14:00.08 | hellekin | I guess it came from somewhere else. It was moved to devuan-for-review some time ago |
| 14:00.24 | fsmithred | There's no delete button on this project like there was on the one I created. |
| 14:00.36 | fsmithred | that makes sense. |
| 14:01.03 | hellekin | when Centurion_Dan and I moved all projects to devuan-packages and devuan-for-review (for the ones that were not readily available as packages) |
| 14:04.34 | fsmithred | I don't see a way to un-join the project, but I guess that's ok. Not like it's crowding my big list of projects. |
| 14:05.58 | hellekin | fsmithred: you're listed as "reporter". I can remove you forcibly and you won't receive any notifications anymore. |
| 14:06.11 | fsmithred | wow, I just clicked on Activity on the devuan-for-review page, and it shows that I left the project and joined it two months ago. |
| 14:06.12 | hellekin | (that is, until you participate again in the issues or code :) |
| 14:06.24 | fsmithred | I haven't gotten any messages about that. |
| 14:06.39 | fsmithred | last push was a year ago |
| 14:06.42 | hellekin | fsmithred: probably the moving project around. |
| 14:06.51 | fsmithred | ah |
| 14:06.53 | hellekin | should I remove you anyway? |
| 14:07.16 | hellekin | fsmithred: ^^ |
| 14:07.19 | fsmithred | not sure. |
| 14:07.42 | fsmithred | it might be useful as a link to get around |
| 14:07.55 | fsmithred | which is something I haven't figured out how to do |
| 14:08.45 | fsmithred | is there a site map? |
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| 20:34.46 | Centurion_Dan | Vall, there is a sprint slated for August September where we will be pushing towards final release. No guarantee's we'll get there, but I expect before the end of the year we will have it out. |
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| 21:09.06 | figlfdev | flrn |
| 21:09.28 | figlfdev | we need dimkr. hi fsmithred |
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| 21:24.57 | hellekin | Centurion_Dan: OMG OMG It's starting tomorrow :] |
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