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| 05:05.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | what happened to ntpd? why poettering ate it and barfed up systemd-timesyncd? |
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| 06:14.29 | Centurion_Dan | DocScrutinizer05: because he thought he could do it better ... and that way if systemd was taking too long to boot he could skew time to make the numbers look better :-P |
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| 07:50.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | LOL |
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| 08:35.43 | hellekin | https://blog.discourse.org/2016/07/reply-by-email-enabled-for-all-discourse-customers/ (already working for some time on talk.do) |
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| 10:27.07 | fbt | w 26 |
| 10:27.08 | fbt | oops |
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| 15:06.45 | golinux | does not think the email feature on discourse is a good idea. |
| 15:07.08 | golinux | ItÂ’s worth noting that your users will now receive mail from |
| 15:07.08 | golinux | {yourbrand}@discoursemail.com, |
| 15:07.22 | golinux | UGH! |
| 15:09.25 | golinux | Playing with Mozilla is so not a good idea . . . |
| 15:16.00 | OmegaPhil | Its basically a forum, so mail would be a good way to subscribe to stuff? |
| 15:31.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | eventually I'll have to check how to cancel my account on talk.do |
| 15:33.38 | hellekin | golinux: what they do at Discourse is orthogonal to what we do at talk.do. I just mentioned it because they think the feature they've been working for since creating the Discourse software is ready, so that means we should be able to use our own instance as mailing lists for people allergic to Web forums. |
| 15:34.00 | hellekin | golinux: that's you ;o) |
| 15:35.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think the mere property of it being a forum no matter what, somehow tends to render email notifications rather useless regarding their content and legibility |
| 15:36.11 | golinux | hellekin: I actually like forums and visit several of them daily. I just don't like the way discourse is structured. |
| 15:36.28 | golinux | It's too fussy and cutsie. |
| 15:36.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, it's pretty weird for peopke used to standard forums like phpbb or vbulletin |
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| 15:37.05 | golinux | It's goes beyond roasted beans! |
| 15:37.45 | Leander256 | after more than 10 years of gentoo forums (in a slightly custom phpbb), this discourse thing feels really awkward |
| 15:37.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | golinux: somewhat zeitgeist though, see gitlab |
| 15:38.11 | golinux | It's a whole world of useless social nothings |
| 15:38.55 | golinux | Leander256: Indeed |
| 15:39.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | seems nowadays each 'app' has to be a killer |
| 15:39.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | no matter what it takes regarding resource demand on bot ends of the DSL wire, and maintenance |
| 15:39.51 | bill-auger | is that the jaromil from dynebolic? |
| 15:39.54 | golinux | Discourse is bloated. Even with the last upgrade still takes forever to lead. |
| 15:40.03 | golinux | bill-auger: Yes |
| 15:40.21 | bill-auger | alright - rasta-riffic |
| 15:40.29 | hellekin | DocScrutinizer05: we're not talking about mere email notifications, but about full email participation. |
| 15:40.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | bill-auger: devuan resides at dyne |
| 15:40.38 | golinux | DocScrutinizer05: I think it was you bitching about the progress bar at the top of git? |
| 15:40.52 | bill-auger | dynebolic was one of the first *nixes i ever used about 15 yrs ago |
| 15:40.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | golinux: yes |
| 15:40.57 | golinux | OMG! I've tried everything to block that! |
| 15:41.12 | golinux | If you know of a way. PLEASE let me know. |
| 15:41.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | disable jave and JS |
| 15:41.41 | hellekin | DocScrutinizer05: having used Web forums well before PHPBB and vBulletin's developers dropped their diapers, I never liked these. But I really like Discourse. Go figure. |
| 15:41.41 | golinux | Animations are soooo annoying and in this case redundant. |
| 15:41.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | but that's pretty much rendering the whole gitlab pretty useless |
| 15:42.08 | golinux | Exactly |
| 15:42.30 | hellekin | bill-auger: yes he is. And the next Dyne:bolic will be based on Devuan JESSIE. |
| 15:42.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | I found no solution and pretty much gave up on gitlab |
| 15:42.55 | golinux | Hmm . . . one thing I haven't tried in a negative margin on the body tag |
| 15:43.04 | golinux | in > is |
| 15:43.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | bitter irony: now my project's private bugtacker etc also is on gitlab |
| 15:43.39 | hellekin | DocScrutinizer05: I urge you to report a bug to Gitlab if you're not willing to abandon your suboptimal KDE browser :) |
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| 15:44.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | I guess golinux is not using Lonqueror |
| 15:44.11 | bill-auger | yer looking for a libre code host DocScrutinizer05 ? |
| 15:44.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | bill-auger: thanks, no |
| 15:45.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | "commercial" and I basically have no saying in it, since I'm not maintaining it |
| 15:45.20 | golinux | DocScrutinizer05: Disliked KDE the first time I installed it 10 years ago or so |
| 15:45.26 | Leander256 | I just opened the discourse page with noscript active... everything rendered in javascript, no wonder people think it's slow |
| 15:45.30 | hellekin | DocScrutinizer05: do you have the same issue on Gitlab.com? (you should, and thus would be unable to report this bug) |
| 15:45.32 | golinux | and never went there again |
| 15:46.13 | hellekin | Leander256: I noticed significant speed improvement in the last few releases. |
| 15:46.33 | golinux | It's still molasses |
| 15:46.51 | golinux | And requires too many clicks to do anything |
| 15:47.01 | golinux | And no pagination. :(\ |
| 15:47.11 | hellekin | golinux: I only click on links or to open the admin panel |
| 15:47.11 | golinux | Thise endless pages drive me nuts! |
| 15:47.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | hellekin: yes http://wstaw.org/m/2016/07/30/plasma-desktopqR2277.png |
| 15:47.27 | hellekin | golinux: rest of the time I use 'gu' and 'jo' keys |
| 15:47.56 | hellekin | DocScrutinizer05: OK, I'll report it for you :) |
| 15:48.37 | golinux | goes off to try the negative margin thing |
| 15:51.38 | hellekin | golinux: try identifying the DOM path of this thingie and put a display:none in a userstyle (if Konqueror supports it) |
| 15:53.35 | Leander256 | also, these big pictures on the top-left corner could do with a drastic diet |
| 15:53.56 | golinux | I don't use Konqueror |
| 15:54.24 | Leander256 | maybe with a different theme, discourse isn't so confusing, there are so many things I want to comment on :) |
| 15:55.42 | Leander256 | but needing javascript to load an image... why.jpg |
| 16:04.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | negative margin? |
| 16:05.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway the progress bar is super hyper annoing useless stuff, it slows down page rendering just to show how much it did ;-) |
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| 16:07.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | hellekin: that's an interesting idea, and yes I think konqueror does support it |
| 16:08.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | alas I only have a fuzzy idea of how exactly I'd implement this display:none thing |
| 16:11.09 | golinux | I just tried several things and nothing worked |
| 16:11.33 | golinux | It is that which will not die! |
| 16:12.43 | golinux | DocScrutinizer05: You can put negative margins on css elements to move things out of sight |
| 16:13.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | ta |
| 16:13.30 | hellekin | DocScrutinizer05: reported at https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab-ce/issues/20458 |
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| 16:15.29 | ksx4system | DocScrutinizer05: makes no sense, some time ago it was browser's job to show a freaking progress bar... now it's gone |
| 16:15.46 | ksx4system | not a silly javascript or whatever |
| 16:16.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | indeed |
| 16:17.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | ok, I got "use custom stylesheet" plus a textbox / filepicker for the path. What now? |
| 16:17.39 | ksx4system | last time I've seen real (sane!) progress bar was probably Opera 12 around 2013ish |
| 16:18.33 | golinux | I still have a status bar in Iceweasel/FF with Status-4-Evar and Classic Theme Restorer |
| 16:19.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | at least I now found how to make Konqueror behave in "restricted mode" for gitr.devuan.org. disallow "plugin loading" in settings for that site |
| 16:21.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://wstaw.org/m/2016/07/30/plasma-desktopco2277.png |
| 16:23.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://wstaw.org/m/2016/07/30/plasma-desktopId2277.png one of those must be the culprit, right (plus those not visible due textbox size)? |
| 16:25.44 | hellekin | wishes for a SIMPLE, FAST, and LIGHT webbrowser, like Firefox 1.1, or the late Mozilla Prism. |
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| 16:26.51 | hellekin | for some reason none that is good enough exists. The closest that come to mind are Uzbl, Conkeror, Surf. But these are not for common people, they're elite geek browsers. |
| 16:26.53 | golinux | I just opened an issue requesting an on/off switch for the progress bar. https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab-ce/issues/20460 |
| 16:27.31 | hellekin | golinux: just thumbed it up :) |
| 16:27.58 | ksx4system | hellekin: let just Opera open source Presto (and preferably all code of version 12, pre-webkit) |
| 16:28.46 | hellekin | ksx4system: cannot tell, never used a non-free browser. |
| 16:29.02 | hellekin | since NCSA Mosaic even :] |
| 16:29.16 | ksx4system | doesn't care that much |
| 16:29.36 | hellekin | you should |
| 16:29.39 | ksx4system | Firefox is "libre" and it sucks |
| 16:29.48 | hellekin | indeed |
| 16:29.51 | ksx4system | Midori probably is "libre" and it sucks |
| 16:30.00 | hellekin | ALL OF THEM BROWSERS SUCK |
| 16:30.11 | golinux | No kidding |
| 16:30.12 | ksx4system | Chromium from Devuan's repository is probably libre too and... guess what? it fucking sucks |
| 16:30.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | ((<hellekin> golinux: just thumbed it up)) I wish I could |
| 16:30.26 | ksx4system | (just sucks a tiny bit less than others) |
| 16:31.13 | ksx4system | Opera 12 (while unfortunately being proprietary) was *the* perfect web browsing tool |
| 16:31.17 | golinux | DocScrutinizer05: Install another browser? |
| 16:31.19 | Leander256 | when you see the utter mess that HTML + CSS + JS has become... |
| 16:31.54 | hellekin | Someone should take the pain of making a mere-mortal-compliant configuration of Uzbl of Surf, and that would become the default web browser in Devuan, everybody would flock in because finally, an OS with a browser that doesn't get in your way. \o/ |
| 16:32.04 | Leander256 | I really wouldn't want to be one of the people working on the rendering engine |
| 16:32.06 | ksx4system | Leander256: flash fortunately died but it doesn't really help with current mess... |
| 16:32.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | (browsers suck) well websites - or their design - suck. What I said just yesterday: when the bandwidth and resource demand of a mere "HTML website" in browser is higher than when watching the same thing on a remote machine via VNC, you finally now web is over the top |
| 16:32.56 | golinux | They do it just because they can! |
| 16:33.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | golinux: I have other browsers installed, but they are not integrated in any of my worjflow |
| 16:33.16 | golinux | So integrate on! |
| 16:33.19 | hellekin | DocScrutinizer05: try rephrasing in 140 chars and gain fame on Twitter :) |
| 16:33.19 | ksx4system | sighs and reminds himself times when he comfortably browsed web on P2 300MHz laptop with 192MB ram and Debian 5 on board |
| 16:33.22 | golinux | one actually |
| 16:33.57 | hellekin | Firefox 1.1 was the first and last great Web browser AFAIC. |
| 16:34.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | when I click a link in here (IRc) it opens in konqueror, no matter if it's a http:// or sftp:// or whatever link. Same with any file on my local as well as remote filesystems |
| 16:34.25 | ksx4system | hellekin: it wasn't even remotely close to Opera |
| 16:34.29 | golinux | Ever heard of c/p? |
| 16:34.48 | golinux | DocScrutinizer05: ^^^ |
| 16:34.56 | ksx4system | (mostly because all the useful features like tabs were introduced by Opera devs) |
| 16:34.58 | hellekin | ksx4system: Opera came much later didn't it? And it was never free software, so it doesn't count. |
| 16:35.09 | ksx4system | hellekin: Opera came 1995-ish ;) |
| 16:35.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, what's that? |
| 16:35.21 | golinux | doesn't use or like tabs |
| 16:35.35 | golinux | copy/paste |
| 16:35.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | strange word pair |
| 16:35.48 | golinux | LOL! |
| 16:35.52 | ksx4system | kek |
| 16:35.53 | Leander256 | I remember opera showing ad banners, that was annoying but it was that or netscape 6... |
| 16:36.30 | ksx4system | Leander256: for most of its existence it fortunately didn't show ads ;) |
| 16:36.51 | ksx4system | (plus it was so good that it actually made sense to purchase it) |
| 16:37.28 | golinux | DocScrutinizer05: I don't like chrome/chromium but they the only browsers that will edit files on git properly |
| 16:37.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | look, I don't even need c&p, I got a "open this in FF" in "file" menu of Konqueror. Still it sucks extremely |
| 16:37.58 | golinux | So they aren't in my 'workflow' but I have to use them to do work on git. |
| 16:38.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | then git is definitely fubar |
| 16:38.15 | golinux | No kidding |
| 16:38.19 | ksx4system | monotone > git |
| 16:38.25 | golinux | They must all be Chromies |
| 16:38.57 | ksx4system | Chromium's Blink engine seems to be standard nowadays |
| 16:40.47 | golinux | goes off to b'fast etc. |
| 16:41.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | and re chrome: I'm trying hard to quit using google for search, and I sometimes ponder to put *@gmail.com on spamassassin's positive filters, so guess what's my notion about that google browser |
| 16:42.57 | ksx4system | DocScrutinizer05: all the browsers suck |
| 16:43.34 | ksx4system | + use startpage via randomized proxy instead of google.com if you really must |
| 16:43.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | so yeah, when the browser already sucks, why *also* bend over and get raped while using it? |
| 16:43.56 | ksx4system | DocScrutinizer05: you mean slowerfox? :P |
| 16:44.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | (startpage) guess what's my default searchengine |
| 16:44.25 | ksx4system | :D |
| 16:45.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | what sucks is the results are _not_ identical |
| 16:45.47 | ksx4system | they are but for logged in Google users |
| 16:45.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | I should use metager per default |
| 16:46.33 | ksx4system | it's all bullshit anyway, it's not possible and/or extremely hard not to use a single bit of american device and/or software nowadays |
| 16:46.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | what? I guess I didn't get you |
| 16:46.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 16:47.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm not logged in to google |
| 16:47.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | but I'm pretty sure that's not needed for google to track you and "optimize" search results for you |
| 16:48.02 | ksx4system | I'd gladly used european (or even russian) made computer with locally written open source software but... well, it's not possible (excluding Raspberry Pi with RISC OS but most of the software for this OS is proprietary) |
| 16:48.22 | ksx4system | DocScrutinizer05: it's not needed but it really helps them :) |
| 16:49.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | tbh I gave up on the idea to keep a low internet profile ;-) |
| 16:49.58 | ksx4system | the matrix will know what it wants to know about you anyway :P |
| 16:50.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | friggin whatsapp and facebook know me better than anybody and even I myself do, thanks to the aggregated profiles of all my 'friends' who happily shared my adress to them |
| 16:51.11 | ksx4system | yup, the damage was done |
| 16:51.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | google tracks you literally everywhere, no matter what you do, doesn't even need to be internet related |
| 16:52.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm pretty sure they do face recog on *all* pictures they can spider in the web, since ages |
| 16:52.34 | ksx4system | they can easily afford that |
| 16:52.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | plus all sorts of metadata tracking |
| 16:52.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | 8.8.8.8 |
| 16:53.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | >:-( |
| 16:53.02 | ksx4system | FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU |
| 16:53.12 | ksx4system | no, not their DNS |
| 16:53.34 | ksx4system | uses yandex.dns or some finnish resolvers |
| 16:54.13 | ksx4system | with 8.8.8.8 and 8.8.4.4 blocked on any firewall I have access to |
| 16:54.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's a pretty nice idea |
| 16:54.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | obvous yet never occurred to me |
| 16:54.59 | hellekin | 8.8.8.8 is hardcoded in systemd-resolved |
| 16:55.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | I know :-P |
| 16:55.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | proof of Poettering's skull content |
| 16:55.37 | ksx4system | hellekin: are you surprised? malware contains malware C&C server... ;) |
| 16:55.48 | ksx4system | s/contains/contacts |
| 16:57.05 | hellekin | DocScrutinizer05: not in #devuan. Go to #debianfork to ad-hominem people. This is really not the place. |
| 16:58.29 | hellekin | reminder: here we're supposed to talk about Devuan. Devuan does not define its identity in relation to systemd. Devuan is creative, not reactionary. |
| 16:59.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | and you know why all this mess and doom? because of people who want a progress bar and frown at nice plain websites like http://www.tentacle.franken.de/m80/index.html since they "look so '80s, no eyecandy" |
| 17:00.23 | ksx4system | super readable stuff <3 |
| 17:00.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | i'm a fan of "form follows function", not "form matters, function not" |
| 17:01.35 | *** join/#devuan Scartozzo (~flavio@2-238-140-4.ip244.fastwebnet.it) |
| 17:02.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | and God beware any crappy service is "for free" - see whatsapp |
| 17:03.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | "all my family uses it, so I need to use it too. I need a new device where it is available" |
| 17:03.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | OMG |
| 17:03.41 | hellekin | likes the Plan9 website |
| 17:04.25 | hellekin | DocScrutinizer05: can "Does not support Whatsapp" be a marketing argument for Neo900? :) |
| 17:04.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | hardly since that's not even our call |
| 17:05.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | user is free to install android or even winCE on Neo900 |
| 17:05.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | make that "doesn't force yoiu to use whatsapp" and we are talking |
| 17:06.12 | hellekin | :) |
| 17:07.39 | Lydia_K | So, I have a deb of my little startmeup script, but I'm not sure where I should put it, is there a place on the devuan wiki or some documentation I'm not finding? |
| 17:12.31 | hellekin | Lydia_K: if you put your project on git.do, you can have a wiki there for your project. |
| 17:13.12 | hellekin | Lydia_K: in the end the idea is to put all devuan docs on devuan.org/os/documentation |
| 17:13.27 | hellekin | (for offline reading, not as a list of links) |
| 17:13.39 | Lydia_K | Ahh, cool. |
| 17:15.36 | Lydia_K | Um, git.do? |
| 17:17.05 | ksx4system | hellekin: Plan 9 is cool :D |
| 17:17.07 | hellekin | git.devuan.org |
| 17:17.25 | ksx4system | the hipster god OS |
| 17:17.27 | Lydia_K | Oh ok, that's what I thought you mean. Yeah, it's up there already. |
| 17:20.27 | Lydia_K | My question is really about the next step, my code is on devuan, I have built a proper deb for it, but I don't really understand how the workflow is supposed to go, how do I take the next steps so that the deb is included in the repos? |
| 17:28.38 | hellekin | Lydia_K: I think you should open an issue in https://git.devuan.org/devuan-for-review/issues to ask for your package to be included. Then someone with access to this group should verify the integrity of your package and clone it to /devuan-packages and include it in Experimental for a couple of weeks, then move it to Ceres, etc. |
| 17:29.08 | Lydia_K | Sweet, ok |
| 17:29.17 | Lydia_K | Should I just put the deb in my git repo? |
| 17:29.46 | hellekin | Lydia_K: I know that Centurion_Dan was questioning the need for /devuan-for-review, but I think it's a good idea for new packages. |
| 17:30.04 | hellekin | Lydia_K: no, your repo is the source repo |
| 17:30.04 | Lydia_K | I would agree, someone should at least give a new package a look over. |
| 17:30.54 | hellekin | agreed, at least to verify lint compliance, license, metadata, and test it on the automated builds |
| 17:35.58 | Lydia_K | Sorry to ask so many quesions, but the debian packaging docs are super in depth about the minor details, but I can't seem to find the basics anywhere |
| 17:36.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | Lydia_K: aiui the answer to your question is: the deb gets built by buildhost (server) from your repo's sources |
| 17:37.14 | Lydia_K | is the "debian" directory all I need? |
| 17:37.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | somebody with better idea about how devuan infra works may confirm/correct that |
| 17:37.55 | Lydia_K | DocScrutinizer05: In this case it's just a script and some templates, so not much building, it's really all about how to structure the needed data so that files go to the correct locations in the deb |
| 17:38.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 17:38.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | no idea here about such details |
| 17:39.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, only a very fuzzy idea |
| 17:39.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | generally I guess when you managed to build locally, that should be fine for buildhost too |
| 17:39.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's at least how maemo infra works |
| 17:40.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | there are some debian specific files to config the .deb |
| 17:40.53 | hellekin | Lydia_K: when it's ready the devuan-sdk should be able to bootstrap all the things. Now I think you need to do it the Debian way. |
| 17:41.12 | hellekin | Lydia_K: so yes, it's all in debian/ |
| 17:41.31 | hellekin | Lydia_K: and there's a lot of documentation |
| 17:41.36 | Lydia_K | Yeah, I'm neck deep in their docs right now, tons of details on things I don't need :p |
| 17:41.48 | hellekin | Lydia_K: you should send an email to dng and ask for a mentor :) |
| 17:42.17 | Lydia_K | I think I'll write something after I figure this out. "The Basics" |
| 17:42.43 | hellekin | yes, that's the problem with docs. Fortunately nobody is PAID to write more docs, so they don't inflate as fast as they could, like European law :P |
| 17:43.26 | hellekin | Lydia_K: probably somebody here or on dng can walk you through the basics |
| 17:43.53 | hellekin | Lydia_K: and it will refocus the community to have to actually do something productive ;) |
| 17:44.00 | Lydia_K | LOL |
| 17:44.12 | Lydia_K | Thanks hellekin |
| 17:44.34 | Lydia_K | I'll keep digging and occasionally ask questions until I grok the workflow here. |
| 17:44.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | don't know if it really helps, but maybe for background reference, filtering out the stuff that possibly doesn't apply: http://wiki.maemo.org/Packaging |
| 17:47.02 | Lydia_K | Thanks DocScrutinizer05, I'll take a look |
| 17:47.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | don't read too closely, when something looks like not matching, just skip |
| 17:48.08 | golinux | DocScrutinizer05: This will make the progress bar go away. Was posted on my issue: |
| 17:48.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | just the general approach should probably be relatively similar |
| 17:48.13 | golinux | html.turbolinks-progress-bar::before { |
| 17:48.13 | golinux | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:48.13 | golinux | } |
| 17:48.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | in a stylesheet? |
| 17:48.48 | golinux | Actually you'll need to add !important |
| 17:49.00 | golinux | I did it in stylish |
| 17:49.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | add inportant!? |
| 17:49.25 | golinux | and yes that's a stylesheet per page or domain etc. |
| 17:49.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | ad on an extra line, before, after? |
| 17:49.59 | golinux | important! insures that the rule will be read |
| 17:51.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | I suspect any custiom stylesheet will override and thus disable any site-provided stylesheet, so how would I include that after the fix in my custom stylesheet? |
| 17:51.25 | golinux | @namespace url(http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml); |
| 17:51.26 | golinux | @-moz-document domain("git.devuan.org") { |
| 17:51.26 | golinux | html.turbolinks-progress-bar::before { |
| 17:51.26 | golinux | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:51.26 | golinux | } |
| 17:51.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | ta! :-D |
| 17:55.11 | golinux | DocScrutinizer05: So did that work for you? |
| 17:57.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | still working |
| 17:57.12 | hellekin | DocScrutinizer05: if that works, please mention it on the related issue on gitlab.com :) |
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| 17:57.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | are the @ something specific to your environment/tools or a stylesheet-genuine syntax? |
| 17:59.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-D \o/ |
| 17:59.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | looks better anyway |
| 18:00.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | now let's re-enable JS, Java, and plugins, since I donno if that's just a works,dont,works,dont scheme with my recent settings without that custom stylesheet |
| 18:02.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://git.devuan.org/groups/devuan-packages |
| 18:02.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | grrr |
| 18:03.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | very annoying to test, since any changes in settings only apply after some random number of close window + open new window cycles |
| 18:04.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | IOW, the mere custom stylesheet doesn't do the trick, though I guess it might have syntactical issues based on the different applications golinux and me are using |
| 18:06.37 | golinux | DocScrutinizer05: That is the syntax for mozilla userChrome.css in the user profile or via the stylish extension. |
| 18:06.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | re testing, also Konqueror's "tools"->"html settings"->"[_] javascript; \n [_] java" only works after a random number of refreshes (F5) and is pretty inconsistent in that the settings in the menu are reset to the state they were before edit, though the edit seems to take effect |
| 18:07.36 | golinux | Does Konqueror have a place to edit css for website in your profile folder? |
| 18:08.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | golinux: aiui konqueror wants a plain `wget $domain/stylewhatever.css >customstylesheet.foo` or somesuch |
| 18:09.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://wstaw.org/m/2016/07/30/plasma-desktopXj2277.png |
| 18:09.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | is also worried the custom stylesheet isn't per website |
| 18:11.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://wstaw.org/m/2016/07/30/plasma-desktopTy2277.png no f...aintest clue |
| 18:15.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://wstaw.org/m/2016/07/30/plasma-desktopav2277.png http://wstaw.org/m/2016/07/30/plasma-desktoptH2277.png http://wstaw.org/m/2016/07/30/plasma-desktopdx2277.png |
| 18:19.19 | *** join/#devuan SylvieLorxu (~TheLastPr@541B7AAC.cm-5-4b.dynamic.ziggo.nl) |
| 18:19.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | ok, after changing settings, I need one F5-refresh to cleanout whatever from wherever, then on second F5 the actual reproducable result shows, which is: enabling JS causes red screen |
| 18:21.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | enabled plugins and enabled Java doesn't matter |
| 18:22.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | the pattern of needing a refresh after first pageload to actually get the reproducable result is persistent |
| 18:24.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | alas the result from disabling JS is a page of questionable usability: http://wstaw.org/m/2016/07/30/plasma-desktopuV2277.png |
| 18:26.56 | golinux | Throw konqueror into the dustbin! |
| 18:28.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | nah |
| 18:28.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://git.devuan.org//assets/application-bd9d293e969f38ca2244b3240b186c94e506679264d890ae138ad437cee657f7.css is what goes to the dustbin >> * jQuery UI CSS Framework 1.11.4 << |
| 18:29.16 | golinux | DocScrutinizer05: It's your head and your hammer. You get to keep all the mush! |
| 18:29.46 | *** join/#devuan obarun (~obarun@154.67.14.64) |
| 18:30.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | to start with: >>The file https://git.devuan.org//assets/application-bd9d293e969f38ca2244b3240b186c94e506679264d890ae138ad437cee657f7.css was opened and contained lines longer than the configured Line Length Limit (4 096 characters).<< |
| 18:31.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | do those suckers really think spending a 16 newline chars per 4k code is bloat they rather need to avoid??? |
| 18:31.21 | MinceR | lol |
| 18:31.29 | Leander256 | what limit are you talking about? |
| 18:31.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | I guess Kate's limit |
| 18:32.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | or rather: MINE |
| 18:32.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | ;) |
| 18:32.26 | Leander256 | ah yeah... that's a totally artifical limit IMHO |
| 18:32.38 | Leander256 | I always set it to 0 |
| 18:32.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's totally braindead style |
| 18:33.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | how I hate that unbearable "lib" crap |
| 18:33.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:33.59 | Lydia_K | Holy wall of CSS |
| 18:34.30 | Lydia_K | https://xkcd.com/1605/ |
| 18:36.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | hehe |
| 18:39.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | ((http://jqueryui.com)) I'm absolutely sure NOBODY EVER gave *that* http://wstaw.org/m/2016/07/30/plasma-desktoptG2277.png a peer-review. You could run any arbitrary crap on your system and only one person on this globe knows what exactly it is |
| 18:40.08 | Lydia_K | Javascript is scary stuff. |
| 18:40.21 | hellekin | DocScrutinizer05: this is the "compiled" code. The source code is actually readable. |
| 18:41.21 | MinceR | the 'genius' of the web: it downloads and runs random crap on your system without asking you |
| 18:43.17 | Lydia_K | To be fair, that capacity is part of what has caused the internet connected application rich world we live in today, we just really need to spend more time making sure all that arbitrary code is properly sandboxed and segregated. Sometimes I'm amazed there aren't more problems. |
| 18:45.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | is pretty happy Konqueror sometimes makes it obvious what crap is actually going on, by simply refusing to get exploited the way the designers of such abominations planned to |
| 18:46.14 | Lydia_K | I run noscript |
| 18:46.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | and yes, the website git.devuan.org is basically flawed in that it doesn't work at all without JS |
| 18:46.57 | Lydia_K | which can sometimes be a pain in the ass when you have to allow 50 things to just read a webpage, but it's worth it. |
| 18:47.22 | Lydia_K | I feel like there are few sites that work without JS these days |
| 18:47.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | no editing in the comment textbox (since there simply isn't any such box), not even icons to left side of index lists showing if it's a file or a dir |
| 18:47.48 | Lydia_K | I mean, I'm sure some "work" in that they are pretty broken, but still functional. |
| 18:48.37 | MinceR | i run noscript as well |
| 18:48.48 | MinceR | and i often end up disabling CSS as well to make content visible |
| 18:49.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | note that neither the missing icons nor the edit textbox really *need* JS to work, they could work just fine on plain html |
| 18:51.16 | *** join/#devuan fsmithred (~fsmithred@68-184-46-18.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com) |
| 18:52.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | hellekin: the gitlab bug isn't "JS progress bar breaks Konqueror", it should be "disabling JS breaks gitlab" |
| 18:54.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | I can do with disabling JS breaking fancy stuff related to hovering objects, interactive spellchecking, whatnot. However a website *always* should have a JS-free alternative version that at least _works_ |
| 18:55.20 | hellekin | DocScrutinizer05: I reported it because you didn't want to use another browser. You get what you didn't ask for :P |
| 18:55.36 | MinceR | sounds like two bugs |
| 18:57.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | let's say tomorrow I want to use http://lynx.browser.org/ |
| 18:59.04 | fsmithred | then your browsing speed will increase dramatically |
| 19:00.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | I still have a mail filter rule that moves all html-only mails straight to /dev/null. For JS-only websites same rationale applies accordingly |
| 19:00.45 | golinux | You make a jail and them complain you're locked yourself in it? |
| 19:01.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, I ask for sane policies when doing "web design" |
| 19:02.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | the times where you had to use a 5 different webbrowsers, for each site the matching one, are gone since netscape deceased |
| 19:04.29 | fsmithred | I didn't think there were five different browsers when netscape was around. |
| 19:04.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | recalls about a 2 dozen CERT security warnings ".... for now it's urgently recommended that users disable javascript until the bugfix got deployed" |
| 19:05.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh wait, was half of them for ActiveX? |
| 19:06.11 | fsmithred | When you have eliminated the JavaScript, whatever remains must be an empty page. |
| 19:06.23 | fsmithred | ...to quote google. |
| 19:07.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | my point: when "web designers" (yes, I have to always use ticks around that term) are too lazy to implement a JS-free alternative for the part of their content that could _easily_ do without JS, then such website isn't worth visiting |
| 19:10.31 | fsmithred | They don't really want you to see what's on the page. |
| 19:10.42 | fsmithred | But they do want you looking at the page. |
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| 19:17.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, ideally on, or via, facebook |
| 19:18.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think init freedom goes together well with browser / media freedom |
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| 19:44.21 | fsmithred | golinux, you here? |
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| 19:49.08 | Guest33117 | Hi guys, I got a few questions: 1) Is there any difference between deb http://packages.devuan.org/merged/ jessie main and deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie main 2) What about libsystemd0 in testing branch, will it be removed in next updates? |
| 19:50.53 | Akuli | 1) yes, the packages is outdated for some reason, see the logs for more info |
| 19:51.00 | Akuli | 2) i have no idea |
| 19:52.28 | Guest33117 | About vdev project, any chance to get in in devuan repos soon? |
| 19:52.54 | fsmithred | haven't heard much about vdev lately |
| 19:53.40 | Guest33117 | well, as I get it correct it's a complete replacement of systemd-udev |
| 19:53.58 | fsmithred | yes, that's the plan |
| 19:54.25 | fsmithred | last thing I remember reading was the author stating that there were still some parts not working. |
| 19:55.35 | fsmithred | and my guess about libsystemd0 is that it will stay, but packages that require it get rebuilt to not need it. That's what I've seen so far. |
| 19:56.04 | fsmithred | I',m running without it here. |
| 19:56.23 | Guest33117 | so, what we have now in a branch different from jessie, the same libsystemd and systemd-udev or exactly the same debian stretch? |
| 19:56.39 | fsmithred | not stretch, for sure |
| 19:56.45 | fsmithred | hang on |
| 19:57.17 | Guest33117 | what's the difference? I can remove systemd and install sysvinit in stretch too |
| 19:57.28 | fsmithred | I've got 57 devuan packages installed, all but a couple are replacements for debian packages |
| 19:58.02 | fsmithred | all but two, to be exact |
| 19:58.26 | fsmithred | and those rebuilt packages allow me to run with no packages that have systemd in the package name |
| 19:58.51 | fsmithred | what about libsystemd0 and libpam-systemd? |
| 19:59.07 | Guest33117 | yeah, I read about it: https://devuan.org/os/packages/list/forked-from-debian |
| 19:59.36 | *** join/#devuan level7_ (~quassel@31.44.17.250) |
| 19:59.50 | Guest33117 | now I got acsii system with systemd-udevd running and libsystemd0 installed |
| 19:59.52 | fsmithred | do you have systemd-shim installed? |
| 20:00.13 | fsmithred | right now, xorg in ascii requires libsystemd0 |
| 20:00.50 | fsmithred | but it might not really need it - I just tested 'chmod 000 libsystemd.so.0-whatever' and xsession seems normal. |
| 20:01.08 | fsmithred | a dummy libsystemd0 package might work, too. It works for some things. |
| 20:01.25 | fsmithred | equivs package for the correct term |
| 20:01.58 | fsmithred | you could replace udev with eudev, but from outside repo. |
| 20:02.31 | Guest33117 | so what's the goal of devuan project? I'm really dont understand, ok, in Jessy we got old xorg without libsystemd depends and sysvinit by default, ok... But in ascii I get the same debian stretch?! |
| 20:04.03 | Akuli | the goal is simple, provide a debian fork without systemd |
| 20:04.09 | Akuli | "Do one thing and do it well." |
| 20:04.13 | Akuli | thats our goal. |
| 20:04.40 | fsmithred | right now, xorg in ascii is same as xorg in stretch |
| 20:04.55 | fsmithred | I wouldn't count on that staying the same forever |
| 20:05.12 | Guest33117 | what about this: http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/How_to_remove_systemd_from_the_Netinst_CD |
| 20:05.33 | Guest33117 | The same thing but with debian netinst? |
| 20:08.04 | fsmithred | don't know. Never saw that page before, and I don't know much about the netinstall CD. |
| 20:08.07 | Lydia_K | As more and more things depend on systemd there will be more and more differences between devuan as patches are implimented to remove that dependency or alternative solutions are put in place. |
| 20:08.46 | fsmithred | Guest33117, do you use systemd-shim or can you function without it? |
| 20:09.18 | Guest33117 | Nah, I dont need it, I'm using openbox + fbpanel |
| 20:09.40 | *** join/#devuan dima_ (~dima@93-172-208-25.bb.netvision.net.il) |
| 20:10.40 | fsmithred | I did that for awhile (openbox) but now I'm back to using xfce. |
| 20:13.37 | fsmithred | thanks to devuan's repackaging efforts. |
| 20:13.44 | fsmithred | brb |
| 20:15.04 | Guest33117 | Finally what should I use http://packages.devuan.org/merged/ or http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged? |
| 20:15.51 | Lydia_K | Openbox <3 |
| 20:18.02 | fsmithred | auto.mirror |
| 20:18.18 | fsmithred | or us.mirror if that's appropriate |
| 20:22.26 | golinux | fsmithred: Just got back |
| 20:24.51 | golinux | You need something? |
| 20:30.11 | fsmithred | hi |
| 20:31.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | akso see https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=832508 |
| 20:31.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | Guest33117: fsmithred: ^^^ |
| 20:32.18 | golinux | fsmithred: Yo |
| 20:32.27 | fsmithred | hi, I sent pm |
| 20:32.54 | fsmithred | DocScrutinizer05, yeah, I read about that. |
| 20:33.43 | fsmithred | Guest33117, devuan is working on a long term solution. I'd rather use devuan and give helpful feedback or other support than keep using debian. |
| 20:33.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | so even debian devs realize there's a certain use in devuan, if only as dustbin from their POV |
| 20:34.31 | golinux | Duh, that was on the ML a few days ago. |
| 20:35.57 | Guest33117 | what a shame, why debain just not left a choise to pick init system... |
| 20:36.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | because they know so much better what's good for you ;-) |
| 20:36.50 | fsmithred | because the new replacement init system is not just an init system, so it's too hard to maintain both. |
| 20:37.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | or that |
| 20:38.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | which actually is the reason why we do not like systemd and want to get rid of it to start with |
| 20:38.18 | fsmithred | DocScrutinizer05, I'm reading that link, and I'm still trying to understand what a non-linux flavor of debian is. Debian BSD? Are there others? Is there a debian windows? |
| 20:38.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | no f.aintest clue |
| 20:38.52 | Lydia_K | systemd isn't an init system, it's a "CoreOS toolkit" which is usurping the functionality of pretty much the entire core of the OS, following the classic non-unix model of development "Do everything and don't worry about doing any of it well." |
| 20:39.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | aka Gatesway |
| 20:40.01 | Guest33117 | I bet systemd will turn into a separate OS soon, lol |
| 20:40.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~systemd |
| 20:40.10 | infobot | systemd cabal: a bunch of people (Lennart Poettering, Kay Sievers, H. Hoyer, D. Mack, T. Gundersen, D. Herrmann) who want to turn linux into their wet dream perverted version of windows-me-too: http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html -- Rumor has it that 2016 systemd will have replaced kernel. See ~nosystemd" |
| 20:40.18 | bill-auger | the non-linux debians are hurd and kFreeBsd |
| 20:40.29 | fsmithred | thanks |
| 20:41.07 | fsmithred | systemd thinks it's the unified field theory of linux |
| 20:41.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | Guest33117: I wish it would |
| 20:41.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | then they may call it poetterOS and leave linux alone |
| 20:42.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | alas they took whole linux as hostage |
| 20:43.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | and it seems 95% of linux people suffer a severe Stockholm syndrome |
| 20:43.34 | Lydia_K | I firmly believe that the systemd camp and the Unix camp with part ways, sharing much of the same userspace and the same kernel, but becoming very different things. |
| 20:43.41 | Lydia_K | SystemD is desktop and GUI focused |
| 20:43.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep |
| 20:44.05 | Akuli | "Do one thing and do it well." |
| 20:44.07 | Guest33117 | desktopd guid |
| 20:44.11 | Akuli | thats my favorite quote |
| 20:44.17 | Lydia_K | Unix is.. well we all know what Unix is, the Unix style of operating system has been around for what, 50 years now? |
| 20:44.41 | fsmithred | almost |
| 20:44.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | I already wonder which datacenter sysop in their sane mind would use a systemd based OS on their mission critical servers |
| 20:44.52 | OmegaPhil | I liked it better when it was called multics |
| 20:45.28 | Lydia_K | I don't think people will care until that first bit of maleware comes out and hits all the systemd based distros, RedHat, Arch, Debian, Ubuntu, and on and on. |
| 20:45.35 | Lydia_K | That will be huge. |
| 20:45.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | hahaha, looking forward to that, really |
| 20:46.00 | Lydia_K | Me too ;) |
| 20:46.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | inevitably must happen sooner rather than later |
| 20:46.13 | OmegaPhil | Why would they care then? Its business as usual (since they'll be used to Windows) |
| 20:46.21 | Lydia_K | The more API's they stick on it, the more network stuff they touch, they more likely it is to happen. |
| 20:46.35 | Lydia_K | Why the hell would I want PID talking to the network? |
| 20:46.37 | bill-auger | maleware? ive heard femaleware can be evil too |
| 20:46.50 | Lydia_K | (LOL) |
| 20:46.52 | Lydia_K | Impossible! |
| 20:47.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | giggles |
| 20:47.15 | Lydia_K | femaleware is always good, now here, download this binary from me and execute it, you know it's perfectly safe ;) |
| 20:54.48 | Lydia_K | OmegaPhil: I do agree, it won't hurt RedHat's bottom line much, but it will drive a lot of developers and users back to the Unix world. |
| 20:55.07 | OmegaPhil | We can but hope. |
| 20:56.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | A friend of mine works at an IT house (thousands of linux systems) and those folks now maybe set free all their admins and switch to something that allegedly "administrates itself automatically" |
| 20:57.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | I really wonder what magic shit that may be |
| 20:57.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | wouldn't be surprised to find out it's a RH product ;-) |
| 20:58.02 | Lydia_K | Good automation can eliminate the need for some people, but you will always need sysadmins. |
| 20:58.26 | OmegaPhil | Is that some form of AI? Various sources have been getting a hardon for ages over AI |
| 20:59.26 | Lydia_K | AI is nowhere near advanced enough to do something so complex. |
| 20:59.43 | OmegaPhil | sudo reboot |
| 20:59.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | given most of my friend's job consists of filing resp closing ITIL tickets, I don't see how they want to automate that |
| 20:59.52 | Lydia_K | reboots |
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| 23:58.14 | figlfdev | i didnt think it would let me in |
| 23:58.46 | figlfdev | jaromil: golinux: so you know, i also use webchat (but im here, so i have no complaint) |
| 23:59.02 | figlfdev | hey flrn |
| 23:59.43 | figlfdev | fsmithred: if youre not afk, im curious about the new repos being added to refracta (do they signify any upcoming changes?) |
