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| 01:03.31 | minnesotags | https://git.devuan.org/devuan-packages/openstack-devuan-images |
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| 02:15.15 | Inocuous | what are y'all using for a torrent download frontend? I have transmission from the repo but it's really slowing down my system, I can barely do anything else. |
| 02:22.42 | Inocuous | another question, if anyone is around, I need to get flash player in Chromium any help with that? |
| 02:23.04 | Irrwahn | Inocuous: If you're looking for something lightweight, I'd recommend rtorrent (ncurses interface). |
| 02:26.19 | Inocuous | transmission is just eating up my processor. |
| 02:26.38 | Inocuous | I think I was using utorrent under another distro |
| 02:26.40 | MinceR | i used to use rtorrent but it didn't have DHT support |
| 02:26.44 | MinceR | now i'm using transmission |
| 02:27.00 | MinceR | maybe rtorrent improved since then |
| 02:27.53 | fsmithred | transmission works fine here |
| 02:28.04 | Irrwahn | Recent rtorrent (>= 0.8.0) supports DHT. |
| 02:28.17 | MinceR | i see, thanks |
| 02:28.41 | Irrwahn | And it barely puts any load on my seedbox. |
| 02:28.53 | Inocuous | I need more horsepower |
| 02:28.55 | furrywolf | DHT is the worst thing to happen to bittorrent. Many trackers used it as an excuse to go away, and now nothing works, because DHT is mostly useless. |
| 02:29.27 | MinceR | DHT helps the network survive though |
| 02:29.40 | MinceR | TPB is less open to attack since it relies on DHT |
| 02:30.08 | MinceR | it was mostly useful to me |
| 02:30.10 | furrywolf | no, it doesn't help it survive, because it DOESN'T WORK, so people stop using it. |
| 02:30.41 | Leander256 | and yet it works |
| 02:30.42 | fsmithred | Inocuous, what's your processor? |
| 02:30.50 | MinceR | it works |
| 02:31.04 | MinceR | i've managed to download torrents starting with a magnet link countless times |
| 02:31.38 | furrywolf | it works if you only download popular things. it doesn't work at finding the one seeder left on the torrent you actually want. |
| 02:34.40 | furrywolf | I've had DHT find a peer in maybe 1 in 20 torrents. |
| 02:35.14 | furrywolf | and I've had trackers no longer exist on pretty close to 20 in 20 torrents. DHT is one of the excuses trackers give for going away... |
| 02:36.17 | fsmithred | Inocuous, I'm running it now, and it's using aroun 20-25% of CPU. On a 2GHz Athlon X2 (10 years old) it's not noticeable. |
| 02:36.18 | Chanku | DHT? |
| 02:36.36 | Leander256 | "people use clients without DHT support" does not equate to "DHT does not work" |
| 02:36.57 | furrywolf | distributed hash table |
| 02:37.12 | Chanku | ah |
| 02:37.19 | furrywolf | Leander256: so fewer than 1 in 20 clients have dht support? |
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| 02:38.39 | Leander256 | it requires a separate port, so most likely people don't redirect that second port |
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| 02:39.39 | Leander256 | and a bootstrap node, too, though it's possible for clients to have default ones, I guess |
| 02:40.45 | Leander256 | anyway, I think it's just a problem of DHT not being necessary most of the time, and most people using bittorrent have no technical clue whatsoever |
| 02:41.09 | Inocuous | fsmithred perhaps some incompatibility on my machine. I'm looking at the CPU monitor, it's not maxed but switching workspaces, typing, things that require interrupts are severely lagging. |
| 02:43.12 | fsmithred | I only get that if I use gnome or kde |
| 02:44.29 | Inocuous | perhaps some weird combination of things I have installed. |
| 02:46.43 | Leander256 | Inocuous: no swapping? |
| 02:48.31 | Inocuous | it isn't something i've changed or even looked at since install. |
| 02:51.38 | Leander256 | I'd wager you have some sort of problem with your hard drive |
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| 02:56.30 | Inocuous | It's a thumb drive, it's partitioned correctly but perhaps the response time is an issue. it's usb 2 |
| 02:57.36 | furrywolf | ... you're torrenting directly to a thumbdrive? try to a normal drive. |
| 02:58.28 | Inocuous | good point, it's got to be beyond the capacity of the port. |
| 03:00.46 | furrywolf | the kernel likes going out to lunch with slow usb devices. I'm not sure why, as it seems like something that shouldn't happen... |
| 03:01.24 | Inocuous | I have an fps shooter on that drive too, which also loses mouse clicks on occasion.makes sense now. |
| 03:10.04 | Inocuous | I like how I always come in here and ask the wrong question but I always get the right answer. You guys are uncanny. |
| 03:10.45 | furrywolf | it's not the right answer until you test it and it actually works. :) |
| 03:11.58 | Inocuous | oh now I have to test it. haha. can't I just accept it as gospel? jk |
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| 03:46.33 | Inocuous | I have to do something different with my devuan installation. it reads and writes well, usually, to my hard drive. occasionally I have to boot to windows and check the drives. |
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| 04:13.46 | nextime | https://github.com/tmux/tmux/issues/428 |
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| 05:51.06 | Irrwahn | I can't even â¦. |
| 05:53.24 | Irrwahn | Obviously, bash should depend on systemd too, since the & operator can be abused to spawn a process in the background. And why would a user want to da that. /s |
| 05:53.35 | Irrwahn | s/da/do/ |
| 06:10.23 | ksx4system | Irrwahn: ROTFL :D |
| 06:13.12 | Irrwahn | Seriously, at that rate these guys may even manage to drive their beloved systemd-of-all-trades right in the ground just by themselves. IOW, there's some hope it'll simply go away. |
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| 06:28.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's not even funny anymore |
| 06:28.19 | muep | I think it would be at least a bit unusual to use & to start background processes that outlive user sessions |
| 06:28.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | systemd serves shit and everybody is more than eager to eat up |
| 06:29.18 | muep | you don't see distributions being at least a bit critical of the feature? |
| 06:30.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm afraid they are on a collective raid to wreck linux, faster than any sane group of people like VUAs could possibly fix it |
| 06:30.41 | muep | e.g. fedora seems to be reverting to old behavior for the upcoming F24 release, with a separate discussion coming on if it is desired for F25 |
| 06:31.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | FREEZE! |
| 06:34.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | all that damn session-management concept is a huge stinking brainfart |
| 06:39.18 | zdzichu | yeah, who invented this setsid() nonsense? |
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| 06:44.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | sarcasm? |
| 06:46.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think sessions like enforced by systemd (cgroups-based etc) are only *really* useful to support a "secure environment" as mandated by TrustedComputing |
| 06:47.16 | muep | how would it be related to trusted computing at all? |
| 06:47.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~trust |
| 06:47.52 | infobot | hmm... trust is safe, or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cbS_lDJuJg |
| 06:50.32 | muep | my impression is that the concept called trusted computing is mostly related to being able to verify all running software before it is started. not e.g. grouping processes or stopping them |
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| 06:54.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | also see ~tivoization and |
| 06:54.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~aegis |
| 06:54.16 | infobot | http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism, or http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif |
| 06:56.29 | Irrwahn | Nice video on TC. However, I almost lost it at the toilet seat icon at 1:08. XD |
| 06:56.58 | Irrwahn | Ironically, it's exactly where it rightfully belongs. |
| 06:57.37 | muep | those would at least be similar in concept to the trusted computing thing, but I do not see how session management or process grouping would be useful for them either |
| 06:57.40 | zdzichu | DocScrutinizer05: session concept is as old as UNIX, only recently people try to redefine it's meaning and enforce behaviour |
| 06:57.43 | zdzichu | with sad results |
| 06:58.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's what I meant. I'm not referring to "session" as in ps |
| 06:58.29 | muep | you'd likely have less need for process grouping and session management if your system by design prevents running of code that you do not know about |
| 06:58.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | I meant session-MANAGEMENT |
| 06:58.58 | zdzichu | I suggest http://blog.invisiblethings.org/papers/2015/x86_harmful.pdf , too |
| 07:01.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | reading first paragraph I already think they are again missing the point. TC is about protecting the computer from its users, so "... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment." for DRM |
| 07:02.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | what other reason might there be to deprive root from its omnipotence |
| 07:04.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | when you outsource authentication&verification, you will no longer control it. Thjat's as obvious and simple as it can get |
| 07:05.04 | muep | if you were given a system that uses TC to limit your ability to change it, you would just not be given root access in the first place |
| 07:06.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | you could "outsource" to a second PC you own, on which the private key for signing stuff lives, but what's the advantage over a decently configured plain unix system where only root can have root permissions and only the password owner may become root (simplified approach) |
| 07:09.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | afaik none of the claimed security advantages of TC is unique to TC and couldn't get reached by more conventional means as well, except one: not even root could e.g. run a protected process under gdb control |
| 07:09.45 | muep | DocScrutinizer05: you seem to be conflating things a bit. if the system is intended to be admistered by you, of course you would likely get a "normal" system rather than one that uses TC to prevent you from changing it |
| 07:10.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | this is obviously only relevant when you don't trust root. But when you don't trust root, then whom to trust at all? |
| 07:11.22 | muep | as I said, you would not be running stuff as root on the system that you were not intended to administer |
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| 07:13.10 | muep | my impression is that e.g. the tivo device (I guess it uses some other mechanism than a standard TPM to verify the OS, but it is similar in concept) is set up so that you are not expected to run your code as root |
| 07:19.31 | Centurion_Dan | tivo is essentially a magic box that spews forth urine that your meant to drink without question all the while being duped into believing it is fine wine, and paying the price for fine wine. It is a device that encourages blind unthinking consumption and the slow poisoning of the mind until one no longer wakes up to the reality of 1984 lived out. |
| 07:20.26 | Centurion_Dan | it's called "living the dream" ;-) |
| 07:21.01 | muep | how is that helpful? I'd say it is essentially a proprietary media player |
| 07:23.08 | muep | TC can be used to implement similar things. but it seems it could be done perfectly well a decade ago before all this session management stuff showed up |
| 07:24.02 | Centurion_Dan | yup, made using open source software that you can't modify so the source is useless... It's the ultimate big finger to open source... |
| 07:27.06 | zdzichu | that's the problems GPLv3 fixed |
| 07:27.07 | muep | sure, I'm not saying it is friendly towards free software. and usually TC-ish stuff done by hardware vendors is user-hostile |
| 07:27.23 | Centurion_Dan | I have to agree with Stallmans assessment of TC in that it is "Treacherous Computing". Computing designed to betray the user and deny them freedom "own" their computing devices. |
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| 11:41.13 | Centurion_Dan | o/ |
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| 13:07.47 | mister_zombie | Hi! I found this faq page https://devuan.org/os/documentation/faq/ and there's a bullet point about migrating from ubuntu to devuan, but there's no further info; how complicated/trivial would that be? |
| 13:09.13 | mister_zombie | (Backstory: I nuked my old arch linux install for unwarranted reasons, tried FreeBSD, cried over unwritten drivers, decided "oh what the heck, Ubuntu is gonna be simple", and then "should have tried devuan instead") |
| 13:09.54 | DusXMT | nods, one has to be picky about their hardware when going BSD |
| 13:11.06 | djph | I would assume (and likely wrongly) that it's just a format and reinstall (same as any other OS install) |
| 13:12.04 | mister_zombie | I read somewhere that one could attempt a dist-upgrade from debian to devuan, I was kind of hoping a similar path was possible |
| 13:13.09 | DusXMT | I'm not quite sure - there are some significant differences between devuan and ubuntu, while devuan and debian share a big chunk of their package repositories |
| 13:13.21 | djph | probably not, since Ubuntu is already a child of Debian ... |
| 13:14.00 | mister_zombie | The whole reason I decided to go ubuntu in the first place was because I did not want to fight with uefi |
| 13:14.13 | mister_zombie | (That I'm sadly stuck with) |
| 13:14.30 | mister_zombie | Is that gonna be just as easy under devuan? |
| 13:14.31 | djph | nuke secureboot? |
| 13:14.54 | mister_zombie | By "nuke" you mean "enable non-crazy regular BIOS mode"? |
| 13:16.00 | djph | or, leave UEFI enabled, and just disable "secureboot" (depends on how your mfg implemented the UEFI mess) |
| 13:16.56 | mister_zombie | Oh right yeah it's already disabled I think; it's just that under arch, I had to configure that by hand, and after performing it once successfully, I kinda never wanna have to think about it again. |
| 13:17.46 | djph | UEFI / Secureboot happens before grub gets involved .. |
| 13:19.33 | mister_zombie | Yes, but I somehow managed to mess up my EFI partition or something. |
| 13:20.24 | mister_zombie | (Not put it at the right place, or tell UEFI to look at the bad place, or something.) Anyway I understand that the installer will take care of that for me, then, which is good. XD |
| 13:34.52 | mister_zombie | Anyway, thanks! Have a good day! |
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| 15:03.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | echo "killall -u">~/.bash_logout |
| 15:04.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | beats systemd hands down ;-P |
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| 15:04.40 | DusXMT | DocScrutinizer05: Problem is when you're logged in as that user in multiple TTYs |
| 15:04.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, I know, but that STILL beats systemd |
| 15:04.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | ;-D |
| 15:05.02 | DusXMT | :) |
| 15:05.10 | furrywolf | so does a sharp stick in the face. |
| 15:05.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | indeed |
| 15:05.20 | furrywolf | so that's a pretty low bar. |
| 15:05.32 | furrywolf | or low threshold. or something. I'm tired and sick. heh. |
| 15:05.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | however I'm hinting in a direction |
| 15:05.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | get well soon, mate! |
| 15:06.26 | DusXMT | DocScrutinizer05: How about logging into that user with ssh? If you'd close the session, it would kill all the uesr's stuff as well, even though you just wanted to close a simple session |
| 15:07.06 | DusXMT | I know, it wasn't supposed to be meant seriously, but hey |
| 15:07.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | but hey, I already said I'm fully aware of the multiple-login issue, and you prolly wopuld need a pstree or whatever to do this right |
| 15:08.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | "--kill-process-and-all-childs" |
| 15:09.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | I thought killall had that, didn't find it |
| 15:09.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | wasn't willing to spend more than 30s for writing that "hack" |
| 15:09.58 | DusXMT | nods |
| 15:10.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | since for me it's a non-issue anyway |
| 15:10.20 | muep | suggesting some realistic alternative to KillUserProcesses=yes would be more productive if you want to convince someone that it is never useful |
| 15:11.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's probably a problem to those who use other poettering&friends crap that doesn't behave, and now systemd to the rescue instead of e.g. fixing gnome |
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| 15:13.22 | DusXMT | DocScrutinizer05: Kinda reminds me of this song: https://www.openbsd.org/lyrics.html#36 |
| 15:13.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | kill -$processgroup maybe |
| 15:14.42 | DusXMT | (the part with the filter) |
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| 15:48.37 | hellekin | failing to install a PC: first I had to switch the keyboard to a non-power usb port, but that's ok. Now the netinst doesn't recognize the CDROM ??? and refuses to continue. |
| 15:48.54 | hellekin | is burning the DVD image instead to test that :| |
| 15:52.01 | openfbtd | Hmm. Actually checking if we're the only processgroup that is alive for the user is not hard |
| 15:52.21 | openfbtd | I've written a killall5 implementation in bash already that crawls proc |
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| 15:52.30 | openfbtd | A reverse of that would be what you need |
| 15:52.58 | openfbtd | But that's not quite ââ |
| 15:53.03 | openfbtd | But that's not quite âsessionsâ* |
| 15:54.11 | openfbtd | Although if I wrote something that cleans up, I'd write something that only cleans up the current interactive session |
| 15:54.17 | openfbtd | And leave other shit alone |
| 15:54.23 | openfbtd | If something detached, then so be it |
| 15:54.39 | openfbtd | It probably detached for a reason |
| 15:58.06 | zdzichu | maybe it's a trojan? |
| 15:59.23 | openfbtd | Then killing it after all your sessions are gone is the least of your problems |
| 15:59.56 | openfbtd | And nothing would stop it from appending to your ~/.bashrc anyway |
| 16:00.24 | openfbtd | Or hiding more cleverly |
| 16:01.05 | openfbtd | zdzichu, you do know the rationale for the systemd default setting flip, right? |
| 16:01.18 | openfbtd | GNOME 3 leaves stray processes |
| 16:01.46 | openfbtd | So they decided to fix it this way |
| 16:01.53 | muep | I think the rationale is more to eliminate or at least suppress a class of bugs, rather than any specific bugs |
| 16:02.32 | muep | during years, I have seen at least KDE to also leave some cruft running after I have logged out |
| 16:02.50 | muep | not sure if that happens with current versions. haven't used KDE for a while |
| 16:03.24 | openfbtd | That goes to show how shitty those huge DEs are. |
| 16:04.23 | openfbtd | The worst part is that these bugs are mostly a problem on desktops, but servers would now have that by default too. |
| 16:04.26 | zdzichu | I think muep is right |
| 16:04.49 | openfbtd | And that is a consistent theme for the project |
| 16:05.05 | zdzichu | openfbtd: only if your distribution is so stupid to a) ship systemd; b) ship it with default settings |
| 16:05.09 | openfbtd | They fix stuff on desktops while adding more unnecessary shit to servers as an aside |
| 16:05.27 | openfbtd | zdzichu, well I am pretty sure most will do both |
| 16:05.58 | muep | it is still their choice to do so |
| 16:06.20 | openfbtd | Where do I say it's not? |
| 16:06.36 | openfbtd | Or is it that I'm not allowed to say it's a stupid choice? |
| 16:06.42 | muep | of course you are |
| 16:07.22 | openfbtd | I think I've said it already a lot of times, but in the whole systemd thing I mostly blame the people who adopt it instead of the upstream. |
| 16:07.32 | muep | but if they end up shipping it that way (afaik no stable distro yet ships systemd 230 at all), it should be because they want that behavior |
| 16:09.17 | muep | they'd not need to even patch the thing to revert the default systemd 229 behavior |
| 16:10.19 | openfbtd | At some point the Internet will be full of questions like âwhy are my processes dying suddenlyâ, just you wait. |
| 16:10.39 | *** join/#devuan Ryushin (~Ryushin@50-203-182-130-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 16:11.11 | openfbtd | And unless systemd gets to be the one and only... whatever it is now, it will continue confusing people for years |
| 16:20.11 | *** join/#devuan obk (4fb33c6a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.179.60.106) |
| 16:22.23 | obk | Is there an accessible devuan-testing? jessie has gcc 4.9 which is pretty old... |
| 16:23.48 | GeneralStupid | openfbtd: systemd is not the only "big" init system |
| 16:24.01 | openfbtd | GeneralStupid, for now |
| 16:24.10 | GeneralStupid | the commercial unices already had smthg like this |
| 16:24.34 | GeneralStupid | smf i think in solaris |
| 16:24.42 | zdzichu | yeah, the monster configured in XML |
| 16:25.18 | zdzichu | there's launchd in Darwin/Mac OS X, there's something in AIX and HP-UX, too |
| 16:27.13 | KatolaZ | well, it would make more sense to ask the process who want to be terminated after logout to *register* this decision |
| 16:27.19 | KatolaZ | and get terminated |
| 16:27.38 | KatolaZ | this would not break the default, expected behaviour of nohup & co |
| 16:28.18 | KatolaZ | and still allow poorly conceived programs to get purged bu others, since their programmers don't know how properly purge them.... |
| 16:29.13 | zdzichu | you expect those poorly conceived programs to register their pooriness? |
| 16:40.18 | GeneralStupid | why would i kill every user program after logout |
| 16:43.29 | hellekin | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:43.45 | hellekin | or gcc-5 |
| 16:45.41 | *** join/#devuan rleigh (~rleigh@unaffiliated/rleigh) |
| 16:51.53 | KatolaZ | zdzichu: this doesn't mean that in order to make happy a few bad programmers you should revert a behaviour that has been standard for more that four decades.... |
| 16:52.15 | KatolaZ | across dozens of different unix incarnations |
| 16:58.08 | tmyklebu | KatolaZ: "move fast and break stuff." |
| 16:58.22 | KatolaZ | tmyklebu: yes, I know :) |
| 16:58.57 | tmyklebu | KatolaZ: doesn't seem like the best policy when we're talking about well-understood stuff that's been useful, at least in part because of its simplicity, for 40 years. |
| 16:59.40 | tmyklebu | KatolaZ: but that seems like a deliberate choice on their part. |
| 17:07.17 | hellekin | everyone knows old stuff sucks. You can't rely on it. If it's older than Justin Bieber, it must be replaced. Like this... Mathematics stuff. |
| 17:17.53 | fsmithred | I resent that. |
| 17:18.03 | fsmithred | <- old stuff |
| 17:20.01 | *** join/#devuan mrcaravan (caravan@gateway/shell/nixmag/x-jiwpyvmklglytsuc) |
| 17:20.07 | mrcaravan | is this OS fully free/ |
| 17:20.08 | mrcaravan | ? |
| 17:20.17 | mrcaravan | is there a live CD? |
| 17:21.03 | fsmithred | there are a couple of unofficial live CDs |
| 17:21.10 | fsmithred | and yes, it's all foss |
| 17:21.20 | fsmithred | brb |
| 17:21.36 | mrcaravan | so no non-free and contrib? |
| 17:21.38 | mrcaravan | at all? |
| 17:22.31 | hellekin | netinst fails with RTL8169 Gigabit ethernet ?? |
| 17:22.53 | GeneralStupid | hellekin: i dont know |
| 17:23.08 | hellekin | mrcaravan: contrib and non-free come from Debian. |
| 17:23.50 | hellekin | thought this card was supported in the kernel. :| Weird. |
| 17:24.38 | hellekin | mrcaravan: we're also planning on shipping linux-libre and other essential kernel features such as grsec and knock |
| 17:26.27 | mrcaravan | hellekin, I don't get it? |
| 17:26.35 | mrcaravan | So there would still be non-free and contrib? |
| 17:26.38 | mrcaravan | from Debian.org? |
| 17:27.06 | mrcaravan | What is the browser called? I cannot find it |
| 17:27.11 | hellekin | mrcaravan: contrib and non-free remain what they are. AFAIK Devuan does not contribute to these repositories |
| 17:27.32 | hellekin | www-browser? |
| 17:28.41 | hellekin | ah, seems that RTL* needs a binary blob :| |
| 17:29.49 | mrcaravan | which browser? |
| 17:30.16 | hellekin | please make a full sentence, this looks like a deaf dialogue. |
| 17:31.52 | *** join/#devuan level7 (~quassel@31.44.17.250) |
| 17:34.23 | hellekin | the realtek firmware is supposed to be shipped with the DVD. WTF. |
| 17:34.31 | hellekin | it's on it for sure. |
| 17:36.30 | minnesotags | mrcaravan; if you clearly ask what you want to know, that is usually the best way to get a useful answer. |
| 17:38.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~tell mrcaravan about amprolla |
| 17:38.34 | fsmithred | hellekin, I think the rtl8169 is supported in the main kernel and has non-free firmware |
| 17:39.08 | fsmithred | it works without adding the firmware, but you get error messages about missing firmware |
| 17:39.35 | fsmithred | or maybe not... I've got the 8168 |
| 17:39.40 | minnesotags | The browser can be either apt-get install iceweasel or apt-get install firefox or whatever other browser you want, but since firefox is now back in Debian, iceweasel and just redirects to firefox, if you apt-get install iceweasel, you get firefox. Or, you could install any other browser you want. |
| 17:40.17 | fsmithred | minnesotags, in jessie, you still get iceweasel |
| 17:40.46 | minnesotags | Are you sure? I thought it redirects to the firefox package? |
| 17:41.33 | fsmithred | apt-cache policy firefox |
| 17:41.34 | fsmithred | firefox: |
| 17:41.34 | fsmithred | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:41.34 | fsmithred | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:41.34 | fsmithred | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:41.53 | fsmithred | I've got jessie and ascii enabled in sources.list |
| 17:42.57 | fsmithred | mrcaravan, if you want contrib and non-free, you have to add those words to sources.list, just like you do in debian |
| 17:43.12 | fsmithred | in fact, almost everything is just like you do in debian |
| 17:43.43 | fsmithred | and most of it IS just debian |
| 17:44.02 | *** join/#devuan technoid_ (~technoid@3jane.sbce.org) |
| 17:44.07 | minnesotags | Without the "secret sauce". |
| 17:46.18 | minnesotags | Which is scraped out as best as possible and flushed down the shitter, but inevitably some remains. |
| 17:47.48 | *** join/#devuan wildlander (~wild@unaffiliated/wildlander) |
| 17:49.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | dang, I can't find the tickets system, the URL seems to lack on https://devuan.org |
| 17:49.35 | *** join/#devuan golinux (~golinux@unaffiliated/golinux) |
| 17:54.17 | hellekin | DocScrutinizer05: git.devuan.org ? |
| 17:54.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | err, I only found https://gitlab.devuan.org/ and that's basically a "deadend" too |
| 17:55.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe I need more coffee but I really can't find my way to my own tickets |
| 17:56.09 | hellekin | DocScrutinizer05: git.devuan.org the one and only |
| 17:56.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | where is that linked? |
| 17:56.28 | hellekin | DocScrutinizer05: https://devuan.org/my/todos |
| 17:56.38 | hellekin | DocScrutinizer05: everywhere |
| 17:56.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry youii lost me |
| 17:57.49 | hellekin | DocScrutinizer05: https://devuan.org/os/source-code mentions "All Devuan-specific source code is available via the Gitlab." |
| 17:58.13 | hellekin | It use dto be more visible though |
| 17:58.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | err, I only found https://gitlab.devuan.org/ and that's basically a "deadend" too |
| 17:58.34 | hellekin | gitlab.devuan.org does not exist, and never did. |
| 17:59.21 | *** join/#devuan firegarden (~dionysos@host36-224-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 17:59.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | errrr.... |
| 18:00.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | ok then why is "sourcode" a link to that URL? |
| 18:00.19 | hellekin | git.devuan.org |
| 18:00.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | heck!!! I C&P it |
| 18:01.01 | hellekin | surely not. Or we're not using the same Internet |
| 18:01.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | dunno whetre I clicked |
| 18:02.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, maybe I found it anywhere in the internets while searching for a URL that has sth with git in it |
| 18:02.46 | hellekin | not in the devuan-www source code I confirm :) |
| 18:03.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway I didn't see any obvious link to the tickets |
| 18:03.55 | hellekin | yes, I guess there is not. I don't know how long it will take to recover the web :| |
| 18:05.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | sourcecode which I thought might be the best bet to get there actually just gives my https://devuan.org/os/source-code |
| 18:07.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://gitlab.devuan.org/ _not_ being a 404 doesn't really help either |
| 18:07.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | I had a fuzzy memory of the URL |
| 18:07.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's how I got to that bogus one |
| 18:17.16 | *** part/#devuan penelopa (~penelopa@unstable.nl) |
| 18:28.44 | *** join/#devuan Pali (~pali@Maemo/community/contributor/Pali) |
| 18:34.12 | golinux | DocScrutinizer05: In a word . . . bookmarks |
| 18:34.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | got way too many of them already |
| 18:36.47 | *** join/#devuan cocoadaemon (~foo@2a01:e35:8a99:e90:d8ad:227c:1c3:7ffa) |
| 18:40.30 | djph | o_O who broke gitlab? |
| 18:42.11 | djph | scratch that, it was me hooray for spelling :) |
| 18:46.30 | *** join/#devuan rleigh (~rleigh@134.36.162.117) |
| 18:46.31 | *** join/#devuan rleigh (~rleigh@unaffiliated/rleigh) |
| 18:49.24 | *** join/#devuan Drugo (~andrea@host100-198-dynamic.53-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 18:55.19 | hellekin | djph :) |
| 19:01.19 | djph | least "spelling" isn't a core requiremet of "writing code" (just so long as the variables are all mis-spelled the same way) |
| 19:12.01 | DusXMT | then, the power of sed can be used =3 |
| 19:12.08 | DusXMT | (to fix them all at once) |
| 19:13.04 | *** join/#devuan Scartozzo (~flavio@2-233-3-55.ip215.fastwebnet.it) |
| 19:14.03 | mrcaravan | which browser is being used by Devuan? |
| 19:14.57 | fsmithred | mrcaravan, iceweasel |
| 19:16.15 | mrcaravan | but I don't see in package list |
| 19:16.52 | fsmithred | apt-cache policy iceweasel |
| 19:16.52 | fsmithred | iceweasel: |
| 19:16.53 | fsmithred | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:16.53 | fsmithred | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:17.01 | fsmithred | what package list are you looking at? |
| 19:22.52 | KatolaZ | mrcaravan: ? |
| 19:23.37 | KatolaZ | what happens if you give "apt-get install iceweasel"? |
| 19:25.14 | fsmithred | I don't think he's gotten as far as installing |
| 19:25.41 | KatolaZ | so where does he/she checks the package list from? |
| 19:25.45 | golinux | Shouldn't iceweasel be installed by default? |
| 19:25.51 | fsmithred | I asked and got no answer |
| 19:25.57 | fsmithred | I think he keeps falling asleep |
| 19:26.01 | KatolaZ | golinux: only if you go for "Desktop" in tasksel... |
| 19:28.04 | minnesotags | Yes. There is no browser installed by default unless you choose "Desktop" during install. |
| 19:28.26 | KatolaZ | there is no X installed as well |
| 19:28.32 | KatolaZ | unless you go for Desktop |
| 19:28.40 | fsmithred | I think you get w3m browser by default |
| 19:28.44 | minnesotags | Or, graphical install. |
| 19:28.54 | KatolaZ | the basic install with openssh server has slightly less than 450 packages |
| 19:29.19 | KatolaZ | 150 of which are useless (mostly perl and python libraries) |
| 19:29.33 | minnesotags | KatolaZ, were you the person who was looking at creating an openstack Devuan image? |
| 19:29.34 | KatolaZ | fsmithred: yes, you get w3m |
| 19:29.55 | djph | DusXMT: or not - if they're all misspelt, who's to say that I dind't intend that in the first place ;) |
| 19:30.02 | KatolaZ | minnesotags: not directly, but my research about devuan minimal lives will lead me there as well, I suspect |
| 19:30.06 | *** join/#devuan debdog (~debdog@HSI-KBW-091-089-090-004.hsi2.kabelbw.de) |
| 19:30.45 | KatolaZ | we are working at integrating all the sdks at the moment |
| 19:30.48 | minnesotags | I'm trying that myself right now. There are still some difficulties, because cloud-init looks for debian in the python2.7 folders. |
| 19:31.10 | KatolaZ | minnesotags: what do you need for an openstack image? |
| 19:31.46 | minnesotags | Just a completely vanilla server with ssh server only. |
| 19:31.54 | KatolaZ | should it be a live image> |
| 19:31.55 | KatolaZ | ? |
| 19:31.58 | minnesotags | Everything else can be built from there. |
| 19:32.10 | KatolaZ | or a minimal install? |
| 19:32.25 | minnesotags | A qcow2 that was a minimal install. |
| 19:32.29 | KatolaZ | ok |
| 19:32.30 | minnesotags | with cloud-init. |
| 19:32.36 | KatolaZ | I see |
| 19:33.09 | KatolaZ | isn't this behaviour fo cloud-init somehow configurable? |
| 19:33.16 | KatolaZ | (I don't know could-init, BTW) |
| 19:33.18 | minnesotags | Yep. There is "kind of" one in the devuan packages, but the login info is kind of messed up and there is a lot of debian stuff still left in it. |
| 19:33.29 | KatolaZ | ok |
| 19:33.35 | KatolaZ | why don't you fork the package then |
| 19:33.40 | KatolaZ | and make a proper devuan version? |
| 19:33.40 | *** join/#devuan sirix (Elite16648@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-bjmkkdummjltjupa) |
| 19:33.46 | KatolaZ | it might be the easiest way forward |
| 19:33.48 | minnesotags | Lol, if I knew how.... |
| 19:33.53 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 19:34.03 | KatolaZ | not too difficult, in the end |
| 19:34.08 | *** join/#devuan level7 (~quassel@31.44.17.250) |
| 19:34.14 | KatolaZ | I guess somebody also wrote a minimal howto |
| 19:34.18 | KatolaZ | IIRC |
| 19:34.31 | minnesotags | Yes. Minimal documentation. |
| 19:34.43 | minnesotags | All the way around. |
| 19:34.47 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 19:35.01 | KatolaZ | do you find that sufficient for the task? |
| 19:35.10 | KatolaZ | otherwise there are several DD in the ML |
| 19:35.16 | minnesotags | "One does not "simply" fork a package." |
| 19:35.17 | KatolaZ | who can help with any specific issue |
| 19:35.22 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 19:36.02 | minnesotags | or storm Mordor, or upgrade OpenStack, or....] |
| 19:36.49 | fsmithred | minnesotags, what's inside debian.py? |
| 19:37.24 | fsmithred | or maybe I should ask why is it a problem? |
| 19:37.32 | KatolaZ | minnesotags: but I can see a devuan-packages / openstack-devuan-images project in gitlab |
| 19:38.02 | KatolaZ | whose description says: "This package provides the tools for easily building openstack images running Devuan GNU/Linux. It is forked from openstack-debian-images" |
| 19:38.19 | KatolaZ | now I don;'t know if it's still alive or it's abandoned |
| 19:38.22 | minnesotags | I saw that. It was updated over a year ago. |
| 19:38.33 | minnesotags | ;-) |
| 19:38.45 | KatolaZ | well, take over then :) |
| 19:39.04 | minnesotags | I know, right? |
| 19:39.15 | KatolaZ | sorry |
| 19:39.22 | KatolaZ | didn't mean to be harsh |
| 19:39.36 | minnesotags | Lol, it's ok. |
| 19:39.39 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 19:39.47 | minnesotags | I'm not meaning to make work for other people either. |
| 19:40.12 | KatolaZ | minnesotags: if you are interested in openstack, you will make work for yourself :) |
| 19:40.33 | minnesotags | Oh, there is plenty of work there. Believe me I know. |
| 19:41.05 | KatolaZ | is there a way we can help then? |
| 19:41.51 | KatolaZ | I mean, you already identified several problems with the Debian version of cloud-init |
| 19:42.16 | KatolaZ | that's a valuable step forwar |
| 19:42.19 | KatolaZ | ~forward |
| 19:42.20 | minnesotags | We think we have it basically working. We had a working Liberty (on Devuan), but managed to "upgrade" and break it. Now after several weeks, we have it back running, mostly. |
| 19:42.30 | KatolaZ | ok |
| 19:43.03 | KatolaZ | if you can trace back the changes, it might be not too difficult to incorporate them in a forked version of cloud=init for devuan |
| 19:43.06 | minnesotags | The firewall/security groups in mitaka are an issue, but that isn't devuan. |
| 19:43.07 | KatolaZ | that was my point |
| 19:43.14 | KatolaZ | ok |
| 19:43.37 | KatolaZ | (sorry, I lack a massive amount of background on anything-cloudy!) |
| 19:43.41 | minnesotags | In fact, it seems to work just as well on devuan as it would on debian (hosts). |
| 19:43.53 | KatolaZ | great |
| 19:44.06 | KatolaZ | let's wrap it up then! |
| 19:44.07 | djph | KatolaZ: take stuff from "your computer" and put it "on someone elses" ... least that's my understanding of it |
| 19:44.08 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 19:44.29 | KatolaZ | djph: :D |
| 19:44.31 | minnesotags | It's really just amped up virtualization management. |
| 19:44.41 | KatolaZ | I know minnesotags |
| 19:44.48 | KatolaZ | only I haven't used it massively |
| 19:45.00 | KatolaZ | so I can't say I have "experience" with it :) |
| 19:45.17 | minnesotags | Right, no problem, I don't much yet either! |
| 19:45.17 | KatolaZ | "experience" is a heavy word |
| 19:45.24 | KatolaZ | used too lightly, lately |
| 19:46.16 | minnesotags | But I'm pretty convinced that distributions are going to need to have the tools for these cloud systems in order to be relevant for servers. |
| 19:46.30 | minnesotags | Or anything that is virtualized. |
| 19:46.56 | KatolaZ | I agree minnesotags |
| 19:47.07 | KatolaZ | that's one of the reasons I am working on Devuan minimal |
| 19:47.15 | minnesotags | :-D |
| 19:47.16 | KatolaZ | i those environments you need just a minimal image |
| 19:47.24 | minnesotags | Yes. |
| 19:47.24 | KatolaZ | to be brought-up in seconds |
| 19:47.33 | KatolaZ | and customied as needed |
| 19:47.37 | KatolaZ | ~customised |
| 19:47.45 | minnesotags | Absoabsoabsolutely |
| 19:48.03 | KatolaZ | you don't need most of the stuff that you still get in a standard Devuan install |
| 19:48.13 | KatolaZ | even in the "minimal" one |
| 19:48.18 | minnesotags | Yes. |
| 19:48.21 | KatolaZ | which still has more than 450 packages |
| 19:48.32 | KatolaZ | we already have functional package lists with 300 packages |
| 19:48.43 | KatolaZ | I am working on having sonethign functional with less than 200 packages |
| 19:48.47 | KatolaZ | very minimal |
| 19:48.53 | KatolaZ | but still working |
| 19:48.57 | djph | I have experience in wandering into dep hell ... that's about it :/ |
| 19:48.58 | minnesotags | That would be awesome. |
| 19:49.01 | KatolaZ | and ready to be customised |
| 19:49.13 | KatolaZ | yes, I know |
| 19:49.20 | KatolaZ | and would open a new niche to Devuan |
| 19:49.27 | minnesotags | yes. |
| 19:49.29 | KatolaZ | that of massive virtualisation |
| 19:49.36 | minnesotags | Total new niche |
| 19:49.45 | KatolaZ | well, not totally new, indeed :D |
| 19:49.52 | minnesotags | Right. |
| 19:49.58 | KatolaZ | left. |
| 19:50.00 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 19:51.32 | KatolaZ | minnesotags: how would you consider having ready-to-use minimal images |
| 19:51.39 | KatolaZ | instead than stuff that has to be installed? |
| 19:51.56 | KatolaZ | (I mean for openstack) |
| 19:51.59 | minnesotags | http://docs.openstack.org/image-guide/obtain-images.html |
| 19:52.18 | minnesotags | Check out the Cirros image, it's, like, 12mb. |
| 19:52.31 | KatolaZ | I zee |
| 19:53.04 | KatolaZ | do those image work with a proper disk image |
| 19:53.09 | KatolaZ | or do they load to ram |
| 19:53.09 | KatolaZ | ? |
| 19:53.39 | minnesotags | You use that image and create a virtual disk. |
| 19:53.51 | KatolaZ | is it a ramfs? |
| 19:53.52 | minnesotags | so, yes. |
| 19:53.58 | minnesotags | No. |
| 19:54.02 | KatolaZ | or another image on disk? |
| 19:54.05 | minnesotags | Yes. |
| 19:54.09 | KatolaZ | ok |
| 19:54.14 | minnesotags | Another image on disk. |
| 19:54.27 | KatolaZ | ok |
| 19:54.37 | KatolaZ | and then you union-mount it on /? |
| 19:55.15 | minnesotags | Well, in openstack you mount it in however you have your volumes setup. |
| 19:55.24 | KatolaZ | mmmhhh |
| 19:55.35 | minnesotags | Or however you have your image storage setup. |
| 19:55.44 | minnesotags | Sorry, "instance" storage. |
| 19:55.57 | KatolaZ | ok, sorry again for my ignorance about openstack |
| 19:56.17 | KatolaZ | I was thinking of a simple scenario in which the small image just contains a squashfs |
| 19:56.24 | KatolaZ | with the minimal system |
| 19:56.26 | minnesotags | "images" are the template files you work off to create an instance |
| 19:56.37 | KatolaZ | ok |
| 19:57.02 | KatolaZ | we should have a proper chat about htis |
| 19:57.05 | minnesotags | So if you "launch" an instance, you do it using a base image file and then customize it as needed. |
| 19:57.27 | KatolaZ | because I think we might already have most of the stuff almost ready to use in the minimal-live-sdk |
| 19:57.32 | KatolaZ | ok |
| 19:57.55 | minnesotags | In this case, if I had a base Devuan qcow2 (or raw, or whatever) image (I think even and iso works), then you launch an instance and customize it for your use. |
| 19:58.07 | KatolaZ | ok |
| 19:58.15 | KatolaZ | imagine now that the "image" is smallish |
| 19:58.28 | KatolaZ | and has a shquashfs / |
| 19:58.33 | KatolaZ | in which you can't write anything |
| 19:58.37 | minnesotags | You just need to make sure that it expands to the file system, and that it doesn't have a persistent mac address, etc.. |
| 19:58.40 | KatolaZ | unless you union-mount another image |
| 19:59.05 | KatolaZ | over it |
| 19:59.22 | KatolaZ | it's like having two qcow2 images |
| 19:59.30 | KatolaZ | the first one has just the minimal system |
| 19:59.34 | minnesotags | And it has persistent dhcp. |
| 19:59.37 | KatolaZ | and is "ro" |
| 19:59.48 | KatolaZ | and the second one will "enhance" the / |
| 19:59.54 | KatolaZ | adding as much space as you want |
| 20:00.03 | KatolaZ | and then you can customise it as needed |
| 20:00.45 | fsmithred | full persistence in debian-live terminology |
| 20:00.48 | KatolaZ | you can already to this with the minimal-live |
| 20:00.59 | KatolaZ | by adding a second drive |
| 20:01.05 | KatolaZ | and union-mounting it over / |
| 20:01.43 | fsmithred | can do it with a loopback file, so you could have several on the same partition |
| 20:01.47 | KatolaZ | I think you might already use a properly customised version of minimal-live |
| 20:01.54 | minnesotags | I have to confess, I'm very new to OpenStack way of doing things. Like, very, very new. |
| 20:02.10 | KatolaZ | ok, then I am not alone :D |
| 20:02.33 | KatolaZ | anyway, I am pretty sure that we can encompass this use case in the minimal-live |
| 20:02.48 | KatolaZ | we were talking about it with jaromil the other day |
| 20:02.54 | minnesotags | I'm not new to running virtualized stuff, but this is a different mindset, and yeah, it is extremely complicated. |
| 20:03.17 | minnesotags | A lot of interacting parts. |
| 20:03.53 | KatolaZ | well, as long as the interactions are known, and clean, it might be "complex" but should not be "complicated" |
| 20:03.55 | minnesotags | And you have to be "all in". |
| 20:04.02 | KatolaZ | "complex" is good :) |
| 20:04.10 | minnesotags | Well, it is both. |
| 20:04.14 | KatolaZ | ahahahahah |
| 20:04.23 | KatolaZ | ok, we'll see |
| 20:04.31 | minnesotags | And the documentation is not for the users, mainly for the developers. |
| 20:04.45 | KatolaZ | the users should not care about all that stuff |
| 20:05.10 | minnesotags | So log files have lots of "that's deprecated", but you don't want to actually remove it, because it is still how it actually works. |
| 20:05.23 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 20:05.32 | KatolaZ | I see |
| 20:05.39 | KatolaZ | I should study a bit of it then |
| 20:06.03 | KatolaZ | but only after I am done with the whole infrastructure for minimal-live |
| 20:06.04 | minnesotags | Yeah. Lot's of "warnings", that are really warnings for other packages developers for future versions. |
| 20:06.07 | KatolaZ | and we are not far, IMHO |
| 20:06.56 | minnesotags | It's got a very "alpha" feel. Not even quite beta. Certainly not beta level like Devuan is beta. |
| 20:07.46 | minnesotags | Not complaining though! It's incredibly powerful! |
| 20:08.36 | minnesotags | Otherwise, we wouldn't be adopting it. :-D |
| 20:11.42 | minnesotags | Point for Devuan is, I see Devuan pushing for more minimalism in the distribution as the real direction that should be taken for virtualization. From the hardware, to the virtualized tools. Who cares about boot times or even events? My baremetal doesn't, my virtualized machines don't. |
| 20:12.03 | minnesotags | Who cares about sessions? |
| 20:12.53 | minnesotags | I mean, when the licenses are free.... |
| 20:12.58 | djph | minnesotags: er, 'sessions' in what sense? |
| 20:13.22 | minnesotags | Why do you need multiple user sessions on a virtual machine? |
| 20:13.23 | john280z | /quit |
| 20:15.12 | djph | minnesotags: because you need multiple people accessing it at the same time? |
| 20:16.12 | nextime | minnesotags: don't do the same error systemd people are doing: don't assume you can predict any other user needs/use case |
| 20:16.15 | nextime | :) |
| 20:16.21 | minnesotags | What use case would that be? |
| 20:16.43 | djph | needing more than one user session on a VM? |
| 20:16.44 | nextime | minnesotags: it doesn't matter, we can even don't know what is it. |
| 20:17.08 | nextime | the right way is just "let the root choose" any use case. |
| 20:18.04 | minnesotags | I'm certainly not assuming what other people should or shouldn't do. |
| 20:19.25 | minnesotags | I'm talking about what I predict will be the vast majority of use cases for virtualized machines. You fire up and down new instances of the VM as needed. |
| 20:20.16 | nextime | minnesotags: well, i don't think you are right here. Your use case is the tipical use case for containers and/or cloud infrastructures |
| 20:20.27 | nextime | but VPS are used in many other ways |
| 20:20.35 | minnesotags | I am asking the question, not telling others what to do. |
| 20:20.40 | nextime | like just to optimize hw usage in modern server networks |
| 20:21.04 | nextime | or even in client side with centralized control |
| 20:21.39 | nextime | cloud infrastructures are just one of the moltitude of possible use case |
| 20:22.06 | minnesotags | Would you agree it is easier to make a distribution bigger than smaller? Bloat is easy. Cleaning up bloat is not. |
| 20:22.52 | nextime | well,depend on how smaller, but yes, usually here you right |
| 20:23.28 | minnesotags | I'm doing the opposite of telling people what to do. Most of my use cases don't require other people's bloat. |
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| 20:23.49 | nextime | but the real hard thing isn't make it smaller or bigger |
| 20:23.53 | minnesotags | If I want extra packages, I can add them. |
| 20:24.01 | nextime | is to make it enough malleable to be smaller OR bigger at the user choice |
| 20:24.09 | minnesotags | Exactly. |
| 20:24.11 | minnesotags | Agree. |
| 20:24.42 | nextime | well, we are crazy enough to try this actually :P |
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| 20:30.44 | minnesotags | I see there are or could be use cases for sessions. I'm just predicting that will become much more rare. They will be down to limitations on local hardware or software licenses, and people will definitely work on ways to get around that through virtualization. That is just one more reason I think systemd (and gnome, etc) is/are barking up the wrong tree. |
| 20:32.15 | minnesotags | Then again, I could be wrong! ;-) |
| 20:32.59 | zdzichu | minnesotags: sessions are core unix concept, see the history of setsid() call |
| 20:33.34 | minnesotags | I'm referring to systemd style. |
| 20:35.26 | nextime | well, i don't know if sessions will become rare or not, and more important, i don't care about that. I see potential use case where they are usefull, and i see many cases where they aren't or even are wrong. The wrong tree systemd ( and gnome etc ) are barking isn't sessions, is to impose sessions as the only way |
| 20:36.09 | nextime | for me it isn't a matter on how rare is a use case, as long as 1 single user need it, we should care about making it feasible as long is possible to do that |
| 20:36.13 | minnesotags | And I agree with that. |
| 20:36.51 | minnesotags | I agree with all of that. |
| 20:36.54 | nextime | but probably my point is also cause i have a long personal hystory on "i'm in a border line use case", i'm used to it :( |
| 20:39.01 | minnesotags | They are imposing one way, the multi-user desktop way, and I don't want it, I don't need it, and I still don't have an alternative right now, to be honest. |
| 20:40.22 | nextime | minnesotags: we are trying to give you ( and give us all ) the alternative :) |
| 20:42.26 | minnesotags | :-) |
| 20:42.34 | Chanku | TBF I don't see much of a point in the systemd way |
| 20:42.38 | minnesotags | I know. I have to rant once in a while though. |
| 20:44.44 | minnesotags | And my current rant is that I can't figure out how to create a devuan openstack image that works right, as in is smaller, logs in properly, and generally works easier than the debian openstack image. |
| 20:45.20 | minnesotags | Or, ffs, the bitnamis ubuntu images (Godeffinghelpme). |
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| 21:12.05 | Centurion_Dan | o/ |
| 21:15.34 | KatolaZ | minnesotags: let's work on that |
| 21:15.36 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 21:15.49 | KatolaZ | devuan is a young projecyt |
| 21:15.59 | KatolaZ | and needs lots of people to cater for it |
| 21:19.16 | djph | I'd like to try and help ... |
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| 21:44.55 | fsmithred | minnesotags, is the problem with getting openstack to work or getting the image to boot? |
| 21:50.09 | KatolaZ | fsmithred: getting openstack to work, I guess |
| 21:50.35 | fsmithred | that part I don't know about |
| 21:50.49 | fsmithred | getting images to boot, I do know a little |
| 21:51.25 | fsmithred | although, I downloaded an unbuntu cloud image a couple hours ago, and I couldn't get it to boot |
| 21:51.36 | fsmithred | it hung looking for a floppy drive |
| 21:51.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | my extremely uneducated guess would be to start with nuking all *kit and relatives, handle login via the accordingly named command etc |
| 21:52.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | this si still supposed to work, in sysv init environment, no? |
| 21:56.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | i | ConsoleKit | System daemon for tracking users, sessions and seats |
| 21:56.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | pukes |
| 21:56.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | particularly on "seats" |
| 21:57.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | polkit | PolicyKit Authorization Framework |
| 21:57.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | HMMMMM rtkit | Realtime Policy and Watchdog Daemon |
| 22:00.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | then /usr/lib/systemd/systemd-logind |
| 22:01.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | can't recall having seen any of that a 10 years ago, and linux just worked |
| 22:05.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | [jr@lagrange ~]$ cat /etc/redhat-release |
| 22:05.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | CentOS release 5.11 (Final) |
| 22:05.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | [jr@lagrange ~]$ ps aux|grep 'kit|login' |
| 22:05.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | jr 18205 0.0 0.2 63260 796 pts/1 R+ 00:04 0:00 grep kit|login |
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| 22:15.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | how lovely was that: http://paste.opensuse.org/10197346 |
| 22:15.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | compare: |
| 22:16.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | jr@saturn:~> cat /etc/inittab |
| 22:16.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | id:5:initdefault: |
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| 22:56.20 | minnesotags | The image boots, just needs a very little bit of fixing on initial username setup and getting rid of debian cruft from the way cloud-init installs. |
| 22:57.34 | KatolaZ | minnesotags: the easiest way would probably be to have a custom cloud-init package |
| 22:57.39 | KatolaZ | with the needed tweaks |
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| 23:04.32 | minnesotags | Yup. And if I knew that package, or my way around python better (which it is built in) I would figure out a fork. Mostly, the problem (I think) is how it pulls in the debian cloud-init package. |
| 23:05.19 | minnesotags | There is already an openstack image creation on the devuan git. |
| 23:05.28 | djph | minnesotags: you're talking about open... somethingorother, right? |
| 23:05.44 | ksx4system | djph: openstack afair |
| 23:05.49 | minnesotags | Yes, the blahblah thingamajig. |
| 23:05.53 | minnesotags | ;-) |
| 23:06.18 | minnesotags | Sorry, I was afk awhile and hadn't scrolled down. |
| 23:06.49 | djph | ah, yeah, people were talking about that before |
| 23:06.52 | minnesotags | Sunday, so grasses to be cut, beverages to be consumed. |
| 23:07.16 | minnesotags | Children to be paid attention to, etc.. |
| 23:08.20 | KatolaZ | minnesotags: we discussed the openstack sdk in gitlab this afternoon, right? |
| 23:09.16 | djph | KatolaZ: yeah, you two were talking about it ... I was half-reading the convo whilst looking thru the devuan git... |
| 23:10.22 | minnesotags | Yes. |
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| 23:12.15 | minnesotags | Crap. |
| 23:12.25 | minnesotags | Well, looks like my experiment failed. |
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| 23:17.50 | djph | what experiment was that? |
| 23:18.30 | minnesotags | I tried using using virt-manager to create a minimal vm, opened it, installed all the needed packages (including cloud-init), removing as many MAC address references as I could, etc.. and then tried loading it as an image to OpenStack. |
| 23:19.17 | minnesotags | I'm trying a few more tricks. Will report back. If I get it to work, I will post a "how to" somewhere. |
| 23:21.57 | hellekin | minnesotags: https://talk.devuan.org/c/study sounds like a good somewhere :) |
| 23:26.24 | ksx4system | is it possible to boot Devuan's netinst iso from grub2? |
| 23:26.57 | KatolaZ | what do you mean ksx4system |
| 23:26.58 | KatolaZ | ? |
| 23:29.59 | ksx4system | grub2 can boot from some iso files (like GRML or Gentoo live DVD) |
| 23:30.17 | ksx4system | KatolaZ: I wonder if it's possible to boot Devuan network installer this way too |
| 23:32.24 | KatolaZ | oh I see |
| 23:32.36 | KatolaZ | well, it was surely possible with grub1 |
| 23:32.41 | KatolaZ | grub-legacy |
| 23:32.46 | KatolaZ | or whatever you call it |
| 23:32.50 | KatolaZ | through the console |
| 23:34.59 | KatolaZ | ok, we now also have a C compiler in the minimal-live |
| 23:35.12 | KatolaZ | tcc, and it works fine |
| 23:35.15 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 23:35.54 | ksx4system | actually I could use that Gentoo live DVD as Devuan installer lol |
| 23:36.06 | ksx4system | it's not that slow to emerge debootstrap |
| 23:36.14 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 23:36.17 | ksx4system | and I could happily continue from there |
| 23:36.30 | KatolaZ | well, you could also use a minimal-live |
| 23:36.38 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 23:37.04 | ksx4system | KatolaZ: why not, do you have a link? |
| 23:37.45 | KatolaZ | devuan.kalos.mine.nu |
| 23:38.15 | KatolaZ | mmhhhh |
| 23:38.39 | KatolaZ | but how would youlike to start the installer? |
| 23:38.46 | KatolaZ | there is no d-i in the minimal-live |
| 23:38.47 | KatolaZ | so far |
| 23:38.56 | KatolaZ | (and probably there will not be...) |
| 23:39.21 | ksx4system | KatolaZ: debootstrap of course :) |
| 23:39.27 | KatolaZ | oh sure |
| 23:39.44 | KatolaZ | then it's the best way forward, maybe |
| 23:39.45 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 23:39.50 | KatolaZ | it boots in a few seconds |
| 23:39.52 | KatolaZ | LD |
| 23:39.54 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 23:40.43 | Centurion_Dan | ksx4system: the netinstaller will boot from grub on UEFI systems as far as I remember... |
| 23:41.35 | ksx4system | Centurion_Dan: I'm trying to make it work on "real" BIOS based box |
| 23:44.03 | Centurion_Dan | you should be able to just hook in the kernel and initrd from the installer... there should be a grub config file on there too. |
| 23:44.11 | Centurion_Dan | no time to look right now. |
