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| 00:09.07 | Chanku | hm? |
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| 04:31.19 | ksx4system | well, libsystemd0 dependency alert :( http://paste.mac.info.pl/?b4f85076d42fa9b6#pOdBmxnkbhMN+ofIhgt+CyTl0iUZdJp15OkhsG39Y4I= |
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| 07:51.47 | edbarx | Made simple-netaid-lightweight GUI capable of auto-connecting on startup. Made Add/Edit Connection dialog not resizeable. |
| 07:52.09 | edbarx | Changes uploaded to git.devuan.net |
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| 10:51.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | ksx4system: not unexpected |
| 10:51.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | then otoh why the heck dou you want libpulse? or anything Polypaudio at all? |
| 10:57.38 | Wizzup | pulseaudio is useful sw and doesn't depend on systemd on my system |
| 11:09.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, on both there might be minority reports |
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| 11:14.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | <ksx4system> well, libsystemd0 dependency alert :( http://paste.mac.info.pl/?b4f85076d42fa9b6#pOdBmxnkbhMN+ofIhgt+CyTl0iUZdJp15OkhsG39Y4I= |
| 11:16.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I'd be highly surprised to find systemd, which cares *a lot* about sessions and making sure even multiseat doesn't mess with some other user's multimedia, wouldn't introduce any dependency to pulseaudio |
| 11:17.48 | Wizzup | on gentoo I use the latest PA without systemd |
| 11:18.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, last I had the record button pressed on my mental log, I heard gentoo is not to systemd-friendly at all |
| 11:18.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | not too |
| 11:19.29 | Wizzup | They offer choice - yeah |
| 11:19.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | so no surprise it has a PA that doesn't depend on systemd, I'd guess |
| 11:20.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | you witness the core evil of systemd, forcing dependencies into each and every daemon |
| 11:23.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | starts to wonder if we couldn't push some concept upstream that uses "manual" dll loading and simply doesn'T call the systemd-notify()(?) shit when the lib is not loadable by the executable |
| 11:23.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | similar stuff gets done all the time |
| 11:24.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry when I fail to use the right terminology |
| 11:28.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd-notify.html |
| 11:28.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/sd_notify.html |
| 11:31.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | aiui that's one of the main offenders, and really simply obsolete as soon as no systemd running on a system. what I suggest is to make using dlopen() mandatory for the lib that contains sd_notify() |
| 11:31.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | mandatory instead of simple linking |
| 11:32.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | of course we don't make systemd mandatory :-D |
| 11:32.14 | openfbtd | https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd-notify.html oh, they have a wrapper for scripts. |
| 11:32.26 | openfbtd | Good, that makes the dependency flexible |
| 11:32.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | I actually expected as much |
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| 11:33.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | that makes the dependency less mandatory for daemons |
| 11:33.30 | openfbtd | Yeah |
| 11:34.05 | openfbtd | I will write watchman-notify that is compatible with this one |
| 11:34.22 | openfbtd | So that it can be linked as systemd-notify :3 |
| 11:34.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | but once that dependency is in the source of any daemon, the wrapper won't help. Unless the daemon's "dependency" is not mandatory, as in "use dl_open() to access libsystemd" |
| 11:34.51 | Irrwahn | Re PA: until a genuine devuan pulseaudio package is prepared, a non-systemd version is available from Adam Borowski's angband.pl repositories |
| 11:35.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | \o/ |
| 11:35.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, not rally, on my side ;-) |
| 11:35.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | really* |
| 11:35.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway a great timesaver |
| 11:37.25 | Irrwahn | BTW, (among others) it also has non-systemd version of cups and gvfs, in case someone would be interested |
| 11:37.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | now for real \o/ |
| 11:38.01 | Irrwahn | =) |
| 11:39.32 | Irrwahn | Disclaimer: i'm in no way affiliated with angband.pl, nor can I vouch for its integrity; i just use it as a temporary measure to fill in the gaps still in devuan |
| 11:39.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | suspects that dl_open() rant would be better placed on some ML, but hates writing mails :-/ |
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| 11:42.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | !#devuan non-systemd versions is <reply><Irrwahn> Re PA: until a genuine devuan pulseaudio package is prepared, a non-systemd version is available from Adam Borowski's angband.pl repositories. BTW, (among others) it also has non-systemd version of cups and gvfs, in case someone would be interested |
| 11:42.05 | infobot | DocScrutinizer05: okay |
| 11:42.27 | Irrwahn | :D |
| 11:42.48 | Irrwahn | man, i really wish i could dispense of PA, but i could neither pure alsa nor jack tame my messy and chaotic audio setup :/ |
| 11:43.01 | Irrwahn | *I could neither bring |
| 11:43.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | err, after only a few years, I started to grok ALSA pretty 'good' :-) |
| 11:43.58 | Irrwahn | i envy you; it nearly drove me nuts, so i had to give up |
| 11:44.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | I had those times too, but I got over them |
| 11:44.42 | Irrwahn | maybe i should give it another go, it's been a while now |
| 11:44.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | there are a few mad and not obvious flaws in ALSA's concept |
| 11:45.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | one is that streams per default are bidir. Another one is dmix only works on lowest "layer" of the plugin stack |
| 11:46.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | third you need to wrap your head around is: ALSA stacks live in app address space, for everything except the soundcard PCM plugin basically, AIUI |
| 11:47.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | even dmix, which is pretty strange |
| 11:47.50 | Irrwahn | specifically, i never found a way to have a central point to quickly(!) change audio mixing and routing between a dozen of sources and half a dozen of sinks |
| 11:47.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | apps using dmix in their audiostack seem to communicate via RPC/IPC of sorts, to sum up the audio streams in a distributed effort |
| 11:49.10 | Irrwahn | in the end, i'm probably doing it wrong in that i attempt to do all this on a single machine w/o dedicated external mixing hardware |
| 11:49.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | Irrwahn: that's pretty difficult, since you basically need to set up the maximum possible routing network from beginning, then mute unused sinks |
| 11:49.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | you can't change sinks of active audio streams in ALSA |
| 11:49.46 | Irrwahn | that what i figured, and never was able to do correctly |
| 11:50.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | you however can make multiple sinnks a valid sink of one app |
| 11:50.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | then mute all but one |
| 11:50.42 | Irrwahn | that explains a lot, so this is a knock-out for alsa in my case. too bad. |
| 11:51.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's nasty for sure, and possibly better handled by stuff like dunno jack, or whatever ladspa dunno |
| 11:51.53 | Irrwahn | ultimately, the idea behind pa isn't so bad, just the implementation is ... err ... inventive in a bad sense |
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| 11:52.32 | Irrwahn | yeah, i definitely should look into jack once again |
| 11:52.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | you could make a mixer app the *sink* for all your ALSA source (and recording) apps, and that mixer app could loopback to completely new ALSA stacks that are dynamically opened by that mixer app on demand |
| 11:53.12 | penelopa | hi all! good day! |
| 11:54.17 | Irrwahn | DocScrutinizer05: i think i see where you are goint at ... i have to think about my setup once again, it might be possible to convert it to something that would work that way |
| 11:54.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | there are ALSA loopback plugins _now_ that allow reverting the "direction" of a stream from App-A_source->PCM_audiocard to (virtual)PCM_audiocard->App-B_sink |
| 11:55.30 | Irrwahn | hm, that sounds like it could definitely help |
| 11:56.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | for mixer there are "file" plugins that you could bastardize for the mixer app |
| 11:57.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | prolly the better alternative for a mixer, to above mentioned loopback plugins |
| 11:57.29 | Irrwahn | i'm just hesitating to rip it all apart and rebuild it all anew; might be sign of me getting older ^^ |
| 11:57.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | I can feel with you |
| 11:58.28 | Irrwahn | anyway, thanks a lot DocScrutinizer05, you gave a lot of new impulse to rethink my sick setup :D |
| 11:58.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | yw, I'm happy to share this "useless" knowledge |
| 11:59.18 | openfbtd | I'd love for the systemd project to provide generic-named interfaces for their shit though. Why should my service manager have a systemd-notify because someone's ego is too big to think of a neutral name :( |
| 11:59.20 | Irrwahn | not sure if there's such a thing as useless knowledge |
| 11:59.37 | openfbtd | service-notify would be fine |
| 12:00.00 | Irrwahn | every bit of knowledge might come in handy one day, one never knows in advance |
| 12:00.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | openfbtd: the function actually is sd_notify() |
| 12:00.10 | openfbtd | Yeah, I know. |
| 12:00.40 | openfbtd | I mean that their wrapper is named systemd-notify and now anyone who wants to be compatible needs to have that |
| 12:00.45 | openfbtd | Even if just as a link |
| 12:01.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | I see where you're coming from, but prolly there's actually a sane rationale for a unique name |
| 12:02.18 | openfbtd | They might have had a unique name *and* a neutral-named link |
| 12:02.22 | Irrwahn | they could've named it sysv-notify, now that'd make for some genuine fun |
| 12:02.29 | Irrwahn | runs |
| 12:02.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | lol |
| 12:03.41 | openfbtd | It's probably time to rewrite my service manager from scratch. So many ideas for it |
| 12:04.19 | dave24 | openfbtd: what service manager is that? |
| 12:04.52 | openfbtd | watchman (https://git.fleshless.org/watchman/) |
| 12:05.05 | openfbtd | It was always an experiment, a rewrite was inevitable |
| 12:05.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway the concept like if dl_open(libsystemd) sd_notify(); else printf(%s, "hoory a systemd-free system!"); would make a lot of sense in my book |
| 12:05.23 | dave24 | openfbtd: thanks |
| 12:06.02 | openfbtd | But so far it's been nice to me. Have been using it in a systemd-less Arch meta distro (also mine) for a few years now |
| 12:06.11 | dave24 | its all shell script? |
| 12:06.18 | openfbtd | bash specifically |
| 12:06.31 | openfbtd | It *depends on bash >4* |
| 12:07.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | >4? wow |
| 12:07.26 | openfbtd | >=4* |
| 12:09.49 | Irrwahn | openfbtd: thanks for sharing, i might use it as a source of inspiration for a pet project i pursue together with a former coworker :) |
| 12:11.10 | openfbtd | heh |
| 12:12.04 | Irrwahn | if you are fine with that, of course :o |
| 12:12.21 | openfbtd | Sure, the license is ISC |
| 12:12.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | openfbtd: is there a verbose version of watchman.usage() or even sth similar to a howto or manpage? |
| 12:13.19 | openfbtd | DocScrutinizer05, I am *insanely* bad at writing docs. https://git.fleshless.org/watchman/about this is pretty much it |
| 12:13.24 | Irrwahn | our minimalistic non-gnu linux "os" will not have bash but mksh, so it could not be adopted as-is, probably |
| 12:13.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | ta |
| 12:13.40 | openfbtd | Irrwahn, most likely not even with small changes, yes |
| 12:14.29 | Irrwahn | but it's always nice to look at prior art instead of re-inventing every tiny wheel and bolt |
| 12:14.37 | openfbtd | DocScrutinizer05, that about is out of date too, look into the config: https://git.fleshless.org/watchman-services/tree/ |
| 12:14.45 | openfbtd | ...for examples of usage |
| 12:15.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | got it, thanks |
| 12:15.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
| 12:17.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | more inspiration for you: |
| 12:17.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | jr@saturn:~> iron900 dsmetool --help|pastebinit |
| 12:17.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://susepaste.org/76205158 |
| 12:17.46 | openfbtd | Oooh, maemo |
| 12:18.31 | Irrwahn | nice, never heard of dsmetool before! |
| 12:19.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | dsme is FOSS now, iirc |
| 12:21.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://www.google.de/search?q=dsme+git |
| 12:22.28 | Irrwahn | bookmarked. merci! :) |
| 12:26.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | btw dbus notices when a client quits. FSO uses this feature to automatically free allocated resources, like "keep backlight on" |
| 12:27.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | not really on topic in a generic distro channel, but maybe related to dsme a bit |
| 12:34.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | openfbtd: why bash4? coproc et al? |
| 12:44.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, rather for general syntax etc, eh? |
| 12:51.18 | openfbtd | DocScrutinizer05, I don't quite remember what depends on bash 4 specifically, but something does |
| 12:51.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | seeing the code I bet on that :-) |
| 12:52.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | it almost looks like.. a real programming language ;-) |
| 12:52.18 | openfbtd | associative arrays is one feature I use a lot, but don't think there are in watchman |
| 12:53.12 | openfbtd | are any* |
| 12:53.34 | openfbtd | Haven't looket at the code for a while, it just works lately :d |
| 12:53.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | :)) |
| 12:53.58 | openfbtd | Yeah, seems like it should work on bash 3 too |
| 12:54.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't even know details about which new features came with 4 |
| 12:54.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think coproc been one |
| 12:54.59 | openfbtd | coproc, associative arrays |
| 12:55.06 | openfbtd | The big ones are these |
| 12:55.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | aa assoc array |
| 12:55.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | aah even |
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| 12:55.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, bash is cool |
| 12:56.14 | openfbtd | I write in zsh lately. It's a bit more consistent and nicer to write in in general |
| 12:56.28 | openfbtd | But the watchman rewrite will probably be in bash |
| 12:56.31 | openfbtd | It's more common |
| 12:58.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | I have a vyatta based router here. They tweaked bash into a whole new user interface :-P |
| 12:58.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | just exploiting alias and bash completion |
| 12:58.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | and keymapping |
| 13:00.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://paste.opensuse.org/34043028 ;-) |
| 13:00.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | ok they use messybox, but still |
| 13:02.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | wonders of tab completion tweaked into shape: http://paste.opensuse.org/38207813 |
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| 13:04.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | honestly, bash is cool |
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| 13:55.58 | openfbtd | zsh is even cooler if we're talking completion |
| 13:56.05 | openfbtd | And it has sane parameter expansion |
| 13:58.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | what's "insane" in nash's parameter completion? |
| 13:58.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | bash even |
| 13:58.54 | openfbtd | expansion |
| 13:59.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | err |
| 13:59.28 | openfbtd | Do this: foo='ls -l'; $foo |
| 13:59.35 | openfbtd | And then try the same in zsh |
| 14:00.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | "ls -l" cmd not found? |
| 14:00.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | has no zsh at hand |
| 14:00.56 | edbarx | Does anyone know of a Live Linux ISO that has an Glade for GTK+2 installed? |
| 14:01.13 | openfbtd | DocScrutinizer05, http://ix.io/FTa |
| 14:01.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | openfbtd: :nod: |
| 14:02.29 | dave24 | edbarx: you can make one: https://github.com/voidlinux/void-mklive |
| 14:02.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | so in zsh you'd use eval if you really want it to get expanded/parsed? |
| 14:08.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | for bash foo='ls -l'; "$foo" does 'the trick' |
| 14:09.18 | openfbtd | DocScrutinizer05, no, eval is an extremely dangerous tool. Just use arrays |
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| 14:09.33 | openfbtd | Also yes, quoting in bash must be your second nature |
| 14:09.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | indeed |
| 14:10.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | eval extremely dangerous? |
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| 14:10.54 | openfbtd | eval just takes a piece of code and runs it, you can't really quote things properly inside |
| 14:11.16 | openfbtd | eval suffers from all the same problems that make SQL injections possible |
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| 14:12.02 | openfbtd | You can just end quoting from a variable's data and you can't protect from that |
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| 16:47.02 | jaromil | openfbtd: zsh rox |
| 16:48.08 | jaromil | check https://github.com/dyne/zuper :^) |
| 16:53.41 | dave24 | is there a discussion somewhere about including s6? Is it just not available yet or are there reasons its not included? |
| 16:54.14 | jaromil | we'd be happily including it if someone maintains the package |
| 16:54.36 | jaromil | I had a look at it months ago when it was posted on dng and looks great to me |
| 16:54.47 | jaromil | was planning to use it but had no time yet |
| 16:55.07 | jaromil | wonder what the suckless folks think of it |
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| 16:56.12 | Lydia_K | s6? |
| 16:56.27 | dave24 | Lydia_K: its a supervision suite similar to runit |
| 16:57.02 | dave24 | jaromil: thanks, I might have a go at it myself this weekend |
| 16:58.26 | Lydia_K | Oh cool! |
| 17:03.09 | dave24 | hmm, runit does not seem to be in the package list on devuan.org. but it shows up when i apt search for it. |
| 17:03.41 | dave24 | where do you keep your actual packages? |
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| 17:14.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | !amprolla |
| 17:14.17 | infobot | nextime gave an excellent explanation how amprolla works, at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/2016-05-07/?msg=65646427&page=4, or https://git.devuan.org/devuan-infrastructure/amprolla |
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| 17:16.24 | dave24 | oh i see. http://i.imgur.com/X64033y.gif |
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| 17:18.36 | golinux | fsmithred: What's up with your connection? |
| 17:19.24 | *** join/#devuan konsolebox (~konsolebo@112.198.103.36) |
| 17:19.58 | fsmithred | getting lots of down time since we upgraded to faster internet and they gave us a new modem |
| 17:24.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | dave24: that doesn't sound like you're happy |
| 17:25.30 | dave24 | DocScrutinizer05: it sounds like I'm impressed |
| 17:25.35 | dave24 | impressive. |
| 17:25.40 | dave24 | very nice. |
| 17:25.51 | fsmithred | impressionable? |
| 17:26.07 | fsmithred | oh, n/m. I tuned in late. |
| 17:31.48 | *** join/#devuan Kaktus_ (4f9759b7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.151.89.183) |
| 17:33.02 | Kaktus_ | hi! |
| 17:35.29 | *** join/#devuan n4dir (~user@pD9EF1D95.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 17:36.20 | Kaktus_ | I have a problem with udev, it is not replaced for the devuan version, after pinning and to add devuan repositories, I continue with udev 215-17+deb8u4 from Jessie. |
| 17:36.50 | Kaktus_ | How I could replace it? |
| 17:37.20 | fsmithred | install eudev? |
| 17:37.30 | fsmithred | there is no devuan version of udev |
| 17:38.17 | Kaktus_ | ? |
| 17:38.22 | Kaktus_ | and this? http://pkg.realitysend.net/devuan/pool/main/s/systemd/ |
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| 17:40.02 | fsmithred | I wasn't aware of that. I just did 'apt-cache policy udev' in devuan jessie |
| 17:41.36 | fsmithred | apt-cache policy systemd |
| 17:41.36 | fsmithred | systemd: |
| 17:41.36 | fsmithred | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:41.36 | fsmithred | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:41.48 | Kaktus_ | Then who does the udev work in devuan? |
| 17:41.50 | fsmithred | I'm guess that's not an official devuan mirror |
| 17:42.02 | Irrwahn | same here - using aptitude i can only see these versions: jessie: 215-17+deb8u4 , ascii: 229-5 , ceres: 229-6 |
| 17:42.29 | fsmithred | do you know whose repo that is? |
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| 17:42.48 | Irrwahn | (only official devuan mirrors configured, ofc.) |
| 17:45.43 | KatolaZ | Irrwahn: it's official devuan repos |
| 17:45.45 | KatolaZ | I have the same |
| 17:46.16 | Kaktus_ | but Jessie version of udev is systemd-ized |
| 17:46.20 | Kaktus_ | https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6hCoiq1TeUxMnNZUERhTUZqSkRXU0tYd0xrMkhHUXFoS0Vj |
| 17:46.30 | Kaktus_ | line number four |
| 17:47.04 | Irrwahn | alright, then there really is no devuan specific version of udev in the official repos. figured as much :) |
| 17:47.45 | Irrwahn | not surprisingly so, since udev is built from the systemd source packages |
| 17:48.22 | KatolaZ | I believe the rational is that it is not worth the effort to maintain a separate version of udev |
| 17:48.30 | Irrwahn | it is however not heavily entangled with systemd (yet) AFAICT - no systemd dependencies pulled in by it |
| 17:48.33 | KatolaZ | since it seems plausible for Devuan to switch to alternatives |
| 17:48.35 | KatolaZ | like vdev |
| 17:48.52 | Irrwahn | right, that is how i understood the rationale, too |
| 17:50.14 | golinux | Yup . . . vdev to the rescue (hopefully). |
| 17:50.34 | Irrwahn | has his fingers crossed |
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| 18:21.33 | systemdhate | Is there going to be a Devuan Live DVD available? |
| 18:23.33 | Akuli | I'd have a need for something like that too |
| 18:23.52 | Akuli | In the past i've customized ISO's but i've never done that from a mini iso, so i don't know :) |
| 18:25.21 | systemdhate | I believe that if devuan is to replace debian successfully, it should offer the same variety Debian does (i.e. both live DVDs and all the 10-DVD set with the repositories). |
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| 18:25.54 | fsmithred | yes, live DVD will happen |
| 18:25.58 | systemdhate | But I would not download a non-official live DVD, it is not secure |
| 18:26.05 | fsmithred | lol, ok |
| 18:26.10 | fsmithred | then make your own |
| 18:26.17 | golinux | https://sourceforge.net/projects/refracta/files/unofficial_devuan_live/ |
| 18:26.19 | fsmithred | and that's not sarcasm |
| 18:26.37 | fsmithred | you can install refractasnapshot and make your own live devuan |
| 18:26.55 | fsmithred | since it's just a bash script, it's easy to audit and easy to modify |
| 18:27.45 | golinux | Then there are all those minimal live isos that KatolaZ is working on |
| 18:27.59 | fsmithred | or even go back to meandean's original posts at forums.debian.net that give the system commands to do it manually |
| 18:28.02 | golinux | systemdhate: Look in the ML archives |
| 18:28.10 | systemdhate | Really, I would only download ISO's and programs that are appropriately signed with a valid certificate and are within the official repository. Everything else just runs the risk of having your computer trojanized |
| 18:28.33 | fsmithred | ok, good point - I never gpg signed my live isos |
| 18:28.50 | fsmithred | but there is md5sum file that gets created with the iso |
| 18:28.54 | systemdhate | fsmithred: and how to you protect the users from MITM attacks? |
| 18:29.13 | systemdhate | fsmithred: the md5sum is irrelevant if it is not gpg signed, it can easily be MITM'ed along with the ISO |
| 18:29.39 | golinux | I've been using refracta isos for years and never had a prob |
| 18:30.01 | systemdhate | golinux: that's not a very strong proof of security, you know |
| 18:30.20 | fsmithred | the .deb files for the tools are gpg signed, and if you want the .asc files, I'll upload them |
| 18:31.05 | systemdhate | fsmithred: do not upload them for me, since I am not technically capable of doing all the process of building the live DVD, and even if I was, I could make mistakes that left my system vulnerable |
| 18:31.21 | systemdhate | hence my need for "official" ISOs appropriately signed and certified with a chain of trust |
| 18:31.45 | fsmithred | if you're capable of installing debian or devuan, you're capable of making the live iso |
| 18:32.05 | fsmithred | there will be official isos |
| 18:32.15 | fsmithred | I know people are working on it |
| 18:32.49 | fsmithred | but beta2 is higher up on the list, I think |
| 18:32.57 | systemdhate | fsmithred: even if I did I could leave vulnerabilities due to my lack of knowledge, I prefer that some experts do it for me, not for laziness but because I cannot be sure that I don't leave my system full of vulnerabilities. It happens when an inexperienced user tries to compile his own system |
| 18:33.34 | fsmithred | so you're opposed to someone doing a minimal install and then adding what components they want? |
| 18:33.37 | systemdhate | fsmithred: so it is just a matter of time before Devuan LIve DVD is added to the official Devuan download folder? |
| 18:33.46 | fsmithred | yes |
| 18:34.27 | systemdhate | fsmithred: no, I am not opposed to anything. It's just that I am not confident that I can do things the proper way to ensure that my system is not vulnerable. That's why I chose debian over arch and others many years ago... because of its stability and security. |
| 18:34.47 | fsmithred | ok, I can understand that reasoning |
| 18:34.51 | systemdhate | fsmithred: I would like Devuan to continue Debian's tradition of security |
| 18:35.09 | systemdhate | I wouldn't like it to be something like other distros that offer no guarantees |
| 18:35.21 | fsmithred | who offers a guarantee??? |
| 18:35.47 | fsmithred | afaik, all software is "use at your own risk" |
| 18:35.52 | systemdhate | fsmithred: A windows user could as a linux user "who offers a guarantee?" in order to justify his defense of a Trojan-OS (aka Windows) |
| 18:36.07 | golinux | If you want someone to do it for you maybe you should turn it over to systemd? |
| 18:36.21 | systemdhate | fsmithred: It is within the GNU philosophy to offer more guarantees than propietary software |
| 18:36.37 | systemdhate | golinux: Systemd? I dislike it as much as you |
| 18:36.47 | fsmithred | guarantee of freedom to do what you want with the software. |
| 18:37.01 | systemdhate | golinux: Devuan should be the same as Debian, but without systemd, why wouldn't it maintain Debian's good attributes? |
| 18:37.01 | muep | I wonder what meaning of guarantee is being discussed |
| 18:38.11 | systemdhate | muep: Guarantee = Having the lowest probability of being owned (i.e. infected with malware,etc.) |
| 18:38.12 | muep | indeed e.g. gnu mostly guarantees you just the four freedoms. all the other features are more like stuff that hopefully happens and usually does happen |
| 18:38.53 | systemdhate | muep: and don't you think that having inexperienced users (like me) rolling their own distros kind of defeat the whole purpose if one is to look for security? |
| 18:39.13 | fsmithred | depends on how much security you feel you need |
| 18:39.14 | systemdhate | (not to mention offering ISO's without gpg signatures and all that) |
| 18:39.26 | systemdhate | fsmithred: the more, the better, you know. Me and everybody else |
| 18:40.10 | muep | systemdhate: not necessarily, if you make you ISO image from trustworthy content and avoid distributing them without having someone more experienced verify that you made them correctly |
| 18:40.44 | fsmithred | systemdhate, do you use a grsec kernel? |
| 18:40.57 | golinux | suspects that anyone with 'hate' in their nick is a troll. |
| 18:41.09 | systemdhate | fsmithred: I don't even know what that is. I just use Wheezy for the time being (while non-beta Devuan is out) |
| 18:41.21 | fsmithred | will stay alert |
| 18:41.39 | fsmithred | do you use tor browser? |
| 18:41.52 | fsmithred | I don't, because it's inconvenient |
| 18:42.04 | fsmithred | so I'm willing to sacrifice some security for convenience |
| 18:42.16 | golinux | There is no security in life. Period. |
| 18:42.30 | systemdhate | fsmithred: well, someone could just go and use Windows, apple and facebook for conveniency's sake. Not my philosophy |
| 18:42.56 | muep | there is no absolute security, but there clearly are situations that are more secure than others |
| 18:43.04 | fsmithred | many do. You have to determine what level of security you need for the job at hand. |
| 18:43.05 | systemdhate | golinux: I am afraid that's a very weak argument. From that perspective, you could justify using evil devices like iPhones or Android. |
| 18:43.35 | fsmithred | I run some systems with the default settings in refracta: root password is root and ssh-server is running. |
| 18:43.39 | systemdhate | fsmithred: Many sheeple do, yes. But those people are not often to be found in linux irc channels |
| 18:43.58 | golinux | It was a philosophical statement. |
| 18:44.30 | muep | systemdhate: nah, you really need to decide what level of security is sufficient |
| 18:44.31 | golinux | BTW, I don't have any mobile devices and a CRT TV. |
| 18:44.45 | fsmithred | but not all my systems are like that. |
| 18:45.16 | golinux | So not into the "smart" device thing |
| 18:45.20 | muep | systemdhate: there are always some security measures that you could deploy and gain some extra security, but you never apply them all because it would not be worth the effort |
| 18:45.42 | systemdhate | golinux: okay. I just give my opinion: I prefer security over conveniency, a thousand times. And I would like devuan to be as secure as debian. If there is any department where I feel it is less secure than debian, I just say it, so to create awareness. That's what I meant |
| 18:46.26 | muep | http://sobersecurity.blogspot.fi/2016/04/security-is-really-about-risk-vs-reward.html explains the tradeoff |
| 18:46.40 | golinux | is getting bored. Needs some b'fat |
| 18:46.50 | golinux | *b'fast |
| 18:46.58 | fsmithred | lol |
| 18:47.28 | systemdhate | muep: yes, yes, I know all of that. I am from the Richard Stallman's school of thought |
| 18:48.24 | muep | isn't stallman mostly quite pragmatic when it comes to technical aspects of software? |
| 18:48.34 | jaromil | infobot: to check if devuan has modded a package and see who changed what, search our gitlab's group https://git.devuan.org/groups/devuan-packages |
| 18:48.35 | fsmithred | I need to go - will be back in a little while |
| 18:49.15 | muep | at least my impression is that software written by stallman has mostly been first focused on providing the freedom guarantee and second most focused on having a sufficient set of features |
| 18:49.55 | systemdhate | jaromil: you are devuan's official maintainer, aren't you? Do you know if the live DVDs will be rolled in the future? |
| 18:50.28 | jaromil | !packagelist |
| 18:50.28 | infobot | from memory, packagelist is on our gitlab's group https://git.devuan.org/groups/devuan-packages |
| 18:51.41 | fsmithred | infobot tells you whether it's remembering or checking??? |
| 18:52.18 | jaromil | systemdhate: fsmithred has done a pretty good beta live DVD for preview |
| 18:52.40 | fsmithred | hey, I didn't sleep last night, this is getting trippy with the bot PM'ing me |
| 18:52.41 | jaromil | fsmithred: now i was checking, gave him info via query |
| 18:52.46 | jaromil | ahahh |
| 18:53.36 | fsmithred | while you're here, jaromil, how do I gpg sign an iso file? |
| 18:53.37 | systemdhate | jaromil: okay, but I would like something a little more "official" and audited. Hence my interest in the future of Devuan LIVE |
| 18:53.52 | jaromil | gpg -b -a isofile.iso |
| 18:53.57 | fsmithred | thanks |
| 18:54.05 | jaromil | yw |
| 18:54.12 | systemdhate | fsmithred: (ask him also how you can put your own signature in the context of a chain of trust) |
| 18:54.38 | fsmithred | I already know that. I've been to several key-signing parties over the years |
| 18:55.31 | fsmithred | and I would love to travel to Italy to sign some keys and have mine signed. |
| 18:55.38 | systemdhate | fsmithred: you have to excuse the way I ask questions and my insistence, both are the result of being a foreign speaker and strong autistic traits (that's which makes me look like a troll, believe I am not) |
| 18:55.58 | fsmithred | ok, got it. Thanks for the explanation. |
| 18:56.39 | fsmithred | and I'm from the northeast united states, so I might seem abrupt or rude and blowing you off, but don't take it personally. |
| 18:57.05 | fsmithred | I do take your questions and security seriously. |
| 18:57.06 | systemdhate | also, while not experienced in building systems or programming I am a security fanatic, don't want my system to be used as an exit proxy and being unaware of it, for instance |
| 18:57.14 | KatolaZ | jaromil: query |
| 18:57.23 | systemdhate | fsmithred: ok, thanks! ;) |
| 18:57.34 | fsmithred | anyway, I need a break |
| 18:57.35 | fsmithred | bbl |
| 18:58.04 | systemdhate | fsmithred: one last thing |
| 18:58.26 | systemdhate | fsmithred: could you build it in the future with LXDE instead of XFCE? (XFCE is too heavy for me, I always use LXDE) |
| 18:59.18 | fsmithred | I'd rather walk you through using refractasnapshot, so you could make your own. |
| 18:59.49 | fsmithred | afk in 3.., 2.., 1.., 0! |
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| 19:01.42 | systemdhate | fsmithred: Can you boot off a live-dvd and, from the live DVD, build the ISO (in order to start from a clean system, I mean) |
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| 19:15.27 | fsmithred | systemdhate, there's a way to do that |
| 19:15.42 | fsmithred | boot live CD or DVD |
| 19:15.51 | fsmithred | configure the running system the way you want |
| 19:16.09 | fsmithred | install to hard drive with refractainstaller, which copies the system you're running |
| 19:16.20 | fsmithred | boot into the installation and create live iso with refractasnapshot |
| 19:16.31 | fsmithred | unplug the network cable before you do this |
| 19:16.49 | fsmithred | oh |
| 19:16.50 | fsmithred | nm |
| 19:17.03 | fsmithred | you can't unplug it while you're installing stuff |
| 19:17.14 | fsmithred | but other than that, you can |
| 19:19.10 | fsmithred | if you wanted to make a live iso directly from a live iso, I think you need to modify the script a little |
| 19:20.44 | jaromil | systemdhate: we just finished a quick meeting about that |
| 19:21.01 | jaromil | will take some time, but will be there |
| 19:21.28 | jaromil | we're on the roadmap to align all efforts around devuan-live-minimal, refracta, vm-sdk and arm-sdk |
| 19:22.45 | jaromil | i gtg now, thanks for your interest and try choose a nicer nickname, make love not war <3 |
| 19:24.11 | systemdhate | jaromil: ok, thank you, I will chose a nicer one next time |
| 19:25.29 | jaromil | :^) |
| 19:25.29 | systemdhate | fsmithred: for the time being I will not use the refracta program. I have some reservations about how much of my computer information (i.e. MAC addresses, local IPs, hardware serial numbers, etc.) are inadvertedly transfered to the ISO I make |
| 19:27.19 | fsmithred | those are valid concerns. Over the years, we've identified and fixed some issues, but there may be others. |
| 19:27.49 | fsmithred | and right now, there are more people than ever before looking at those tools. |
| 19:27.57 | systemdhate | fsmithred: I am glad you understand the way my mind works regarding these issues |
| 19:28.19 | fsmithred | <- paranoia is default setting |
| 19:29.07 | systemdhate | LoL |
| 19:29.50 | systemdhate | fsmithred: also, bear in mind that these kind of systems are always trying to be hacked |
| 19:30.03 | systemdhate | do you remember when a tor developer ordered a computer off amazon or something like that |
| 19:30.19 | systemdhate | and had her delivery route altered in transit to some facility or something? |
| 19:30.23 | systemdhate | (I recall vagely) |
| 19:32.08 | fsmithred | no, I don't know that story |
| 19:32.30 | fsmithred | and I've never considered myself a high value target for hacking |
| 19:32.58 | fsmithred | other than the random port-knocking that's usually going on |
| 19:34.20 | fsmithred | brb |
| 19:34.27 | systemdhate | fsmithred: aren't debian (now devuan) developers a high value target for hacking in order to put backdoors in secure systems to aid in global surveillance? |
| 19:36.45 | fsmithred | maybe, but probably upstream would be more profitable |
| 19:37.12 | fsmithred | examples: vulnerability in random number generator for RSA |
| 19:38.01 | fsmithred | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:38.35 | fsmithred | need to go check my laundry - back in a bit |
| 20:18.18 | systemdhate | fsmithred: fsmithred no cryptsetup installed by default in the live DVD? |
| 20:33.09 | Inocuous | Is there anything I should be doing different for my updates? I'm getting a lot of IGN packages list |
| 20:38.18 | *** join/#devuan golinux (~golinux@2605:6000:ebc6:d200:ea94:f6ff:fe08:498c) |
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| 20:54.08 | penelopa | bay! good night! |
| 20:54.15 | *** part/#devuan penelopa (~penelopa@unstable.nl) |
| 20:55.10 | *** join/#devuan Markus_KMi (uid95611@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xonlxrbbpiablfxl) |
| 21:15.32 | *** join/#devuan cocoadaemon (~foo@2a01:e35:8a99:e90:41d0:d32d:3de5:d3f3) |
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| 21:35.06 | *** join/#devuan FNTM-U3 (~taha@94.183.156.125) |
| 21:35.11 | FNTM-U3 | hello people |
| 21:35.36 | FNTM-U3 | I was looking for an 64bit image to install devuan. do we have that? |
| 21:37.29 | golinux | Yup. https://files.devuan.org/devuan_jessie_beta/ |
| 21:39.50 | FNTM-U3 | golinux: could i connect to a wpa2 wifi AP on net-install image? |
| 21:43.54 | golinux | I am only wired so the wrong person to ask |
| 21:45.36 | golinux | If non-free firmware is required, I think you download and copy to usb to have it available during the install. |
| 21:45.56 | FNTM-U3 | golinux: what would be the difference between netinstall iso and >600MB one? |
| 21:48.09 | golinux | 600mb one will get you a running system without an internet connection. Net install only is bare bones allowing everything else to be fetched from the repos |
| 21:50.22 | golinux | There is an 'unofficial' live iso if you want to test drive: https://sourceforge.net/projects/refracta/files/unofficial_devuan_live/ |
| 21:50.42 | golinux | FNTM-U3: ^^^ |
| 21:57.57 | KatolaZ | there are also minimal live ISOs available :) |
| 21:58.15 | KatolaZ | they are "unofficial" as well |
| 21:58.23 | KatolaZ | http://devuan.kalos.mine.nu |
| 21:59.51 | *** join/#devuan SuicideJunkie (~nick@CPE000f6638c2b8-CM0c473de90d90.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 22:09.16 | golinux | KatolaZ: Sorry. Didn't intentionally exclude your contributions. I am just really tied to the desktop. :) |
| 22:13.39 | KatolaZ | no worries golinux :) |
| 22:14.44 | KatolaZ | I know minimal live ISOs are kind of a niche, after all... |
| 22:39.18 | SuicideJunkie | hits go on the escape attempt |
| 22:40.59 | ksx4system | KatolaZ: cool stuff anyway :) |
| 22:41.29 | ksx4system | good enough to keep as recovery distro in GRUB menu |
| 22:42.30 | ksx4system | add debootstrap and here's my favourite way to install |
| 22:46.24 | SuicideJunkie | Hmm. udisks2 had some problems... service failed to load: no such file or directory. |
| 22:47.25 | SuicideJunkie | Does that mean a reboot will be required or a bad idea? :) |
| 22:47.55 | blackpenguin_ | rebooting rarely solves a problem with anything else than windows. |
| 22:48.27 | SuicideJunkie | "A reboot is required to replace the running dbus-daemon." it says back up the scroll list a bit |
| 22:48.56 | MinceR | poetteringware adopts windows principles like that :> |
| 22:49.01 | SuicideJunkie | Oh, well, what's the worst that could happen? I've got my personal stuff backed up. |
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| 23:12.03 | *** join/#devuan Scartozzo (~flavio@2-233-3-55.ip215.fastwebnet.it) |
| 23:12.04 | SuicideJunkie | Hmm. Didn't really work. There's still some systemd in the process list. Time for the nuke & boot I suppose. |
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