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| 00:02.57 | crhylove | I prefer CLI for most of what I do anyway, but I'd love to put devuan on more end user desktops, and this is the main blocker for me currently. |
| 00:09.17 | gci_admin | I use Xfce4 and it does what a GUI should do. What else does one need? |
| 00:19.39 | KatolaZ | gci_admin: ratpoison :) |
| 00:29.39 | gci_admin | KatolaZ, yes, every Microsoft user should try ratpoison at least once. :D |
| 00:36.40 | KatolaZ | every user should try ratpoison, at leat for a couple of months |
| 00:36.41 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 00:37.28 | gci_admin | Well, I tried it for a week quite a while back. That was a very long week. ;) |
| 00:39.54 | KatolaZ | :D |
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| 05:04.45 | Inocuous | that ratpoison, that's for the hard core linux terminal people. |
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| 05:05.47 | Inocuous | gui has proven to be much more productive over the years by some significant margin. |
| 05:06.12 | Inocuous | so much for jumping on an old topic. heh. |
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| 07:39.45 | ksx4system | gci_admin: why would one need ratpoison (or any other tiling wm) if there's openbox? :P |
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| 11:49.41 | Inocuous | greetings |
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| 11:53.38 | enyc | Inocuous: greetings, there are many here if you ask questions and allow time for people to respond eventually |
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| 12:12.57 | terabit | Inocuous: it's subjective |
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| 15:13.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | I for one never seen my desktop (wallpaper) for the last 4 years or so, since I always have lots of fullsize windows opened |
| 15:14.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | CBA to chnage the ugly suse green even (just looked, out of interest) |
| 15:16.49 | MinceR | :) |
| 15:17.37 | Lydia_K | You don't do transparent terminals? |
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| 15:31.24 | Akuli | Are my devuan systems supposed to have a non-empty /etc/systemd? |
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| 15:50.28 | ksx4system | Akuli: I can see that directory on some of mine, I think it's safe to purge it |
| 15:51.24 | Akuli | Let's try that in virtualbox. |
| 15:52.49 | ksx4system | oh, now I see |
| 15:52.55 | ksx4system | those are fucking unit files |
| 15:53.07 | ksx4system | it's *perfectly* safe to purge it on Devuan |
| 15:53.14 | Inocuous | hello everyone |
| 15:53.23 | ksx4system | Inocuous: yo :) |
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| 15:55.06 | Inocuous | What's new in the Devuan world today? |
| 15:55.47 | penelopa | Hi all! Nice day! |
| 15:56.47 | KatolaZ | Inocuous: new version of the minimal live images will be announced soon, if this is of your interest :) |
| 15:57.46 | Inocuous | Is that for running on a DVD or a small memory stick? |
| 15:58.19 | Akuli | Hehe :D On a vm i removed all files in "locate systemd" and now my mouse and keyboard aren't working. |
| 15:58.20 | KatolaZ | is the one which requires 96 MB of ram |
| 15:58.26 | Akuli | Probably not a good idea, i'm glad it's just a vm :) |
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| 16:02.32 | Inocuous | Is it basically a terminal only setup KatolaZ ? |
| 16:03.07 | KatolaZ | yep |
| 16:03.13 | KatolaZ | plus framebuffer support |
| 16:03.42 | KatolaZ | plus support for braille terminals and speech synthesis |
| 16:03.46 | Inocuous | what's the footprint as far as required hard drive space, is that known off hand? |
| 16:03.54 | KatolaZ | 250MB |
| 16:03.57 | KatolaZ | more or less |
| 16:04.01 | Inocuous | nice. |
| 16:04.34 | ksx4system | will there be an OpenVZ image? |
| 16:04.35 | KatolaZ | well, it's not mainstream, but there are many niches in which it might fit well |
| 16:04.41 | Akuli | I have devuan on a computer with a 25GB hard drive, and it only uses 6% of it :D |
| 16:04.44 | KatolaZ | what is openVZ? |
| 16:05.14 | ksx4system | KatolaZ: old yet still popular container mechanism |
| 16:06.15 | KatolaZ | I zee |
| 16:07.08 | KatolaZ | no idea |
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| 16:24.29 | Inocuous | I'm trying to launch a scheduled cron job using xterm, I've fine tuned my command line so I can manually launch it from terminal but it won't launch as a cron job. Should xterm be uses as part of the script? |
| 16:24.47 | KatolaZ | uh? |
| 16:26.11 | Inocuous | what part of that doesn't make sense? |
| 16:26.55 | muep | it would at least be very unusual to involve an xterm in stuff run from cron |
| 16:27.23 | KatolaZ | Inocuous: what do you want to do, exactly? |
| 16:27.43 | Inocuous | I want to see my script run in a terminal window |
| 16:28.02 | Akuli | then ask whoever is going to use it to launch it from a terminal? |
| 16:28.30 | Akuli | "type there bash, hit the space and drag the file to terminal" |
| 16:28.39 | Akuli | it's not that hard to tell that to people |
| 16:29.05 | KatolaZ | does your script require the terminal window at all? |
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| 16:30.42 | Inocuous | there is screen output, I just wanted to see it run so xterm seemed like the way to do that, but it doesn't work. It's not a big deal to me. I just thought it was something that could be done. |
| 16:31.31 | Akuli | You could make another script that launches it in xterm if you want to :D |
| 16:31.32 | KatolaZ | everything can be done, Inocuous |
| 16:31.43 | Akuli | xterm -c ./real-script |
| 16:32.00 | KatolaZ | if you are just interested in the output of the script, you might just put the outrput in a file? |
| 16:32.29 | Leander256 | if you want to open an xterm in your xwindow session, you'll need the necessary rights |
| 16:34.03 | Leander256 | and a valid DISPLAY environment variable to run the cron job |
| 16:34.58 | Akuli | what if the user doesn't have xterm? |
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| 16:35.14 | Akuli | oops |
| 16:35.22 | MinceR | you could have the cronjob log to file and view that when you want to :> |
| 16:35.25 | Akuli | I'd use x-terminal-emulator instead since it points to the user's default terminal |
| 16:36.48 | Leander256 | but it's more fun to have a window pop out of nowhere :) |
| 16:37.09 | Inocuous | haha, yes. |
| 16:37.36 | Akuli | while true; do mate-terminal; done |
| 16:37.45 | Akuli | well... don't run that, actually :) |
| 16:37.49 | Akuli | It's kind of hard to stop |
| 16:38.56 | MinceR | have a window steal focus out of nowhere is somewhat less fun |
| 16:39.06 | Akuli | i agree about that :) |
| 16:39.13 | MinceR | would be harder to stop with an & after mate-terminal |
| 16:39.20 | Akuli | not really |
| 16:39.27 | Akuli | mate-terminal backgrounds itself |
| 16:39.31 | MinceR | oh. |
| 16:39.44 | MinceR | i thought only gvim did that :) |
| 16:39.56 | Leander256 | you can always switch to a virtual terminal and kill the script from there |
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| 16:41.28 | Akuli | I actually just ran that :D |
| 16:41.39 | Akuli | i'm glad i'm aware of TTY's |
| 16:42.04 | Akuli | oh crap |
| 16:42.20 | Akuli | MinceR, you were right, the & backgrounds it even better :) |
| 16:42.29 | MinceR | :) |
| 17:23.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | Anybody a comment to Seagate ST2000MN0033 ? Good or lemon? |
| 17:24.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | FYI: TOSHIBA DT01ACA100 is crap |
| 17:25.46 | Akuli | DocScrutinizer05, i have no idea what you'd need 8TB for :) |
| 17:26.07 | Akuli | i have a devuan computer with a 25GB hard drive. 6% of it is actually used. |
| 17:26.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | this is a 2TB |
| 17:27.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | as the "2000" suggests ;-) |
| 17:27.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually two of them, since I'm fed up with anything except RAID |
| 17:28.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | I hope the "enterprise" will serve a lil longer than ~2 years before it explodes, but... |
| 17:31.24 | golinux | DocScrutinizer05: Caviar black ;) |
| 17:31.31 | Leander256 | DocScrutinizer05 you should look at https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-drive-reliability-stats-q1-2016/ |
| 17:33.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | Leander256: sounds mad useful |
| 17:38.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | alas no ST2000NM0033, and even minor variations in type cause huge reliability diffs obviously |
| 17:38.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway for next purchase it's a great reference |
| 17:39.56 | Leander256 | yes, it's too bad that they only have a few models, but to me there's a clear indication that it's best to avoid seagte |
| 17:40.27 | Leander256 | that is, if you care about your data |
| 17:41.00 | Leander256 | I got a cheap WDC not long ago to store all my games, it's ok if I lose it, I can always download them again |
| 17:47.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | seems ultrasor etc are OK |
| 17:48.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | HGST (which I never before heard of) |
| 17:48.59 | Leander256 | HGST used to be Hitachi |
| 17:49.10 | Leander256 | but I'm not sure about the details |
| 17:50.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | Ahhh |
| 17:50.42 | dimkr | I bought a bulk-packaged WD Scorpio Blue |
| 17:50.44 | dimkr | very cheap |
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| 17:55.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | we'll see, got two of those now, to set up a sw RAID |
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| 18:10.42 | bulldozer2003 | Anyone have the installer return an error message when selecting both "Devuan desktop environment" and "Cinnamon"? |
| 18:11.40 | bulldozer2003 | I went back and selected only "Devuan desktop environment" and the installer is proceeding. I have yet to go back and test selecting only "Cinnamon" |
| 18:11.48 | jaromil | never tried, but may well be |
| 18:11.54 | bulldozer2003 | Oh, it just failed again. |
| 18:13.30 | bulldozer2003 | Ooh, fun: "task-cinnamon-desktop : Depends: cinnamon-desktop-environment but it is not going to be installed" |
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| 18:36.06 | bulldozer2003 | Is there a bug tracker or just the forums? |
| 18:38.24 | KatolaZ | bulldozer2003: all the projects are hosted on gitlab |
| 18:38.26 | KatolaZ | https://git.devuan.org/explore/projects |
| 18:38.53 | KatolaZ | you can open issues in the relevant project there |
| 18:39.23 | bulldozer2003 | Thanks KatolaZ |
| 18:40.12 | KatolaZ | bulldozer2003: |
| 18:40.29 | KatolaZ | I believe issues related to the installer should be filed here: https://git.devuan.org/devuan-packages/debian-installer/issues |
| 18:40.37 | KatolaZ | bulldozer2003: NP |
| 18:41.35 | ksx4system | DocScrutinizer05: as of my own experience HGST are best "new" drives (just like WD was 5-10 years ago) |
| 18:42.07 | ksx4system | just don't buy shitty desktop drives, only server grade stuff (Ultrastar) |
| 18:42.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | <yeah, last HDD was desktop crap |
| 18:42.49 | Inocuous | someone just asked my what does devuan use for init |
| 18:42.50 | Inocuous | idk |
| 18:43.01 | ksx4system | sysvinit |
| 18:43.18 | ksx4system | (but you can of course use openrc or even write your own) |
| 18:43.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | mature since ages |
| 18:43.24 | ksx4system | Inocuous: ^ |
| 18:44.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually wonders where from this "sysvinit is broken" idea came from |
| 18:44.54 | Inocuous | probably systemd devs |
| 18:45.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | what was the problem that made this sound any reasonable? |
| 18:45.44 | KatolaZ | DocScrutinizer05: sysvinit has problems, as any software conceived 30+ years ago |
| 18:45.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure |
| 18:45.59 | KatolaZ | it depends on whether those problems affect you or not |
| 18:46.03 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 18:46.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | but it nevertheless worked since 30 years |
| 18:46.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | or what you said :-) |
| 18:46.33 | KatolaZ | well, computers today are undeniably not similar to what they were 35 years ago... |
| 18:46.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | ok |
| 18:46.50 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 18:46.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | now for step two of the lesson :-) |
| 18:47.01 | KatolaZ | I am not saying that I like systemd, though |
| 18:47.03 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 18:47.22 | KatolaZ | I have no lessons to teach, BTW... |
| 18:47.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | a pity, I'm always keen to learn |
| 18:48.40 | KatolaZ | I believe we mostly learn by our own |
| 18:48.45 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 18:49.05 | KatolaZ | though talking with others helps a lot in the process |
| 18:49.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | now honestly, what been the terrible roadblock those folks ran into, that made then say "we need something completely new"? was it voice in bootmenu? getting bored during 2 minutes of boot time? problems with multiseat (whoever using such stuff today)? |
| 18:53.39 | KatolaZ | The answers comes from the past |
| 18:53.48 | KatolaZ | and from one of the fathers of unix |
| 18:54.09 | KatolaZ | Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. |
| 18:54.14 | KatolaZ | (H. Spencer) |
| 18:54.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep, that's my fav |
| 18:54.51 | KatolaZ | nothing to be added |
| 18:54.53 | KatolaZ | IMHO |
| 18:54.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: |
| 18:55.13 | KatolaZ | if we look at what systemd has become |
| 18:55.45 | KatolaZ | it is clear that a lack of understanding of the principles behind unix is the source of that evil, IMHO |
| 18:57.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep, either lack of understanding or deliberate ignorance ("linux should no longer try to stay compatible to Unix which is broken by design" OWTTE quote Poettering) |
| 18:57.44 | bulldozer2003 | I imagine "It's old, that means it must be replaced" or the favorite catchphrase "Let's disrupt [insert thing]" |
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| 18:58.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | suddenly thinks "Klingons" |
| 18:59.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/efd4/ |
| 18:59.19 | bulldozer2003 | DocScrutinizer05 Space garbage = target practice? |
| 19:00.46 | bulldozer2003 | Aren't sysvinit's failings mostly in implementation, aka poor startup scripts? |
| 19:01.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | definitely, since sysvinit is basically nothing more than a tiny executable and lots of scripts :-) |
| 19:02.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | but the mere fact it uses scripts _at all_ is considered a defect by systemd cabal |
| 19:03.06 | bulldozer2003 | I imagine there was some outcry when initrd was introduced as well though? It's kind of a pain, but at least it can be broken open and edited. |
| 19:04.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, initrd "goes away" pretty switftly, you don't see much of it in a booted system |
| 19:04.34 | crhylove | I love cron. I don't understand what the systemd cabal problem is. |
| 19:04.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, they fsckd up cron too |
| 19:05.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | their problem is aiui: cron doesn't work like *we* *think* it should |
| 19:05.34 | crhylove | Figured out how to change the "Main Menu" icon in Mate. Now for a better wallpaper... |
| 19:05.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | I.E. it doesn't excute backlog after a system suspend |
| 19:06.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | after resume actually |
| 19:06.14 | crhylove | DocScrutinizer05, Yeah, it's like this huge "not built here" syndrome writ large across all of linux by redhat and CIA bad actors. |
| 19:06.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | which is a *good* thing in my book, however systemd changed that |
| 19:06.50 | muep | AFAIK cron in systemd-using distros is pretty much the same thing as cron in non-systemd distros |
| 19:07.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | NIH you meant? :-) |
| 19:07.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~wtf nih |
| 19:07.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | !wtf nih |
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| 19:13.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | (cron) I can tell you more about it: http://paste.opensuse.org/8317606 is what a normal run of cron-hourly|daily|weekly looks in my syslog now >:-( |
| 19:13.48 | muep | isn't that systemd timers, not cron? |
| 19:15.23 | muep | cron would look like this http://paste.fedoraproject.org/367712/46351251/ |
| 19:15.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | in the Good Old Times[TM] my syslog for a whole day was shorter than that |
| 19:17.48 | muep | if you run a traditional syslog daemon, can't it be told to not write log entries from programs whose logs you do not want there, or e.g. direct them to some other file? |
| 19:18.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | but sure, when everybody and their dog is supposed to use a single logging facility that you should browse with a damn tool like journalctl... this is prolly what you get from it |
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| 19:19.51 | crhylove | journalctl is the absolute deal breaker for me. I can't tail -f /var/lob/whatever.log ? I'm out! |
| 19:20.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | "why do you complain? use journalctl instead the deprecated syslog-ng and less, so it won't even be visible to you" |
| 19:20.46 | muep | do you mean that journalctl shows those entries, or that it doesn't? |
| 19:21.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh, what logging is in devuan? |
| 19:21.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | per default |
| 19:21.50 | muep | rsyslog, I think |
| 19:22.10 | penelopa | good night! bay! |
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| 19:22.22 | muep | I checked in one system that has journalctl, and there it does not have any entries with e.g. text "target" in them for today |
| 19:22.24 | Leander256 | I have rsyslog running, so it must be it, indeed |
| 19:26.09 | muep | crhylove: just FYI, you could do journalctl -f and it would behave similarly to tailing a log file |
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| 19:29.29 | crhylove | muep, Oh, I know there are workarounds. But I don't LIKE workarounds. |
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| 19:35.47 | muep | I do not like workarounds either |
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| 20:24.17 | neo42_ | crhylove, have you tried journalctl -f ? |
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| 20:35.10 | ksx4system | DocScrutinizer05: it's rsyslog |
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| 23:59.23 | Centurion_Dan | muep: Yup rsyslog is the default logger in Devuan - and I removed the dependency on libsystemd too. |