| 00:00.01 | darsie | I'm fine with having it in /usr/local or so. |
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| 00:00.31 | darsie | is lost. |
| 00:00.40 | somiaj | this way you leave your stable system alone, but run all of the newer stuff located in a python virtual enviorment. I did this in $HOME, though I'm a single user, wanting multiple user access to this virtual enviorment is possible too |
| 00:01.26 | somiaj | basically you install and run all the python stuff you need in a single location like $HOME/python3.9/ |
| 00:01.48 | somiaj | and then set up your shell to run and install commands inside this virtual enviorment that is independent from your system. |
| 00:01.50 | darsie | still lost |
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| 00:02.19 | darsie | Maybe I just switch to rtorrent. |
| 00:02.23 | somiaj | If you use python a lot and need stuff outside of debian (via pip), might want to read up on python virtual enviorments. I did this to test out some new software, and found it fairly straight forward. |
| 00:04.05 | darsie | I upgraded my desktop to testing so I could play Surviving Mars, but now deluge 2 is unhappy with deluge 1.3 on our server. |
| 00:06.22 | somiaj | downgrade deluge on your desktop while you wait for bullseye to release if you don't want to upgrade the server? |
| 00:06.47 | darsie | Interesting idea. How would I do that? |
| 00:07.41 | somiaj | You could try to install the package from buster, though here just becaerful about to many depends, but many are >= so older versions do work (at times) |
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| 00:08.40 | darsie | ok. So I add a deb line for buster. Or just download and install with dpkg -i? |
| 00:09.36 | darsie | having deb lines for both bullseye an buster could mean big trouble. |
| 00:10.31 | darsie | Not sure how to properly use apt-pinning to avoid dependency hell. |
| 00:11.59 | somiaj | having both won't be a huge detail, since everything in bullseye >= everything in buster |
| 00:12.19 | somiaj | I would manually download, but using apt is probably better, you could also add, then remove the source once you are done |
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| 00:12.43 | somiaj | you shouldn't need pinning, you are just installing one (or maybe just a couple) of older packages. |
| 00:13.03 | darsie | I'll try downloading. Feels safer. |
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| 00:20.41 | darsie | didn't work out |
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| 00:21.45 | somiaj | Missing depends, if so how many? |
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| 00:28.25 | darsie | somiaj: https://paste.debian.net/1193926/ |
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| 00:29.27 | somiaj | yea, I would proabably just use a virtual enviorment, I think due to the python change and drop of python2 this probably won't work |
| 00:36.44 | darsie | Maybe using a virtual environment for Surviving Mars would have been better than upgrading. |
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| 00:45.33 | darsie | Or I could upgrade the deluged VM on the server to bullseye. |
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| 00:46.44 | somiaj | I did mention that a bit ago, just realize there won't be full security support until after the release |
| 00:47.01 | darsie | It's a VM for a reason. |
| 00:47.48 | darsie | actually, a container |
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| 05:59.02 | birkoff | /etc/resolv.conf is overwritten a few seconds after dhcp fetches the correct configuration. The file says "generated by resolvconf" but systemd-resolved is disabled. |
| 06:02.03 | nkuttler | birkoff: is that a question? do you have the resolvconf package installed? |
| 06:02.11 | birkoff | yes, yes |
| 06:02.22 | nkuttler | so what's the question? |
| 06:02.47 | birkoff | how to prevent it from getting overwritten |
| 06:02.59 | nkuttler | remove the resolvconf package? |
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| 06:05.35 | birkoff | it's not there |
| 06:05.45 | birkoff | the resolvconf is not installed |
| 06:06.15 | birkoff | I assumed it is because /etc/resolvconf/ exists and the line in /etc/resolv.conf |
| 06:06.55 | TheBigK02 | pastebin dpkg -l resolvconf pls |
| 06:07.04 | birkoff | I tried setting resolvconf=NO in /etc/resolvconf.conf and now after removing /etc/resolv.conf and restarting the interface and dhcpcd a file isn't generated at all |
| 06:07.32 | birkoff | TheBigK02: it starts with un , I already said it isn't installed |
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| 06:08.06 | TheBigK02 | check the process list if its still running somehow |
| 06:08.38 | birkoff | I don't see any process or service for it like I said, unless you mean the service which I can enable called systemd-resolved |
| 06:09.25 | TheBigK02 | and u have overwritten the file by hand and u rebooted and its still overwritten? |
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| 06:09.39 | birkoff | I didn't reboot, just restarted what I said |
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| 06:10.03 | TheBigK02 | may be dhcpclient does it still? is that process still on? |
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| 06:13.34 | somiaj | birkoff: maybe just remove the package 'resolvconf' if you aren't using it. |
| 06:13.50 | TheBigK02 | somiaj: he said its not installed |
| 06:14.07 | somiaj | with resolvconf installed, /etc/resolv.conf should be a link pointing to some file. |
| 06:14.44 | birkoff | it hasn't got overridden by a link though , just a plain file |
| 06:15.01 | birkoff | resolvconf package is not installed |
| 06:15.05 | somiaj | I'm unsure why whatever is overwriting the file is saying it is resolvconf if that is not installed |
| 06:15.13 | birkoff | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:15.35 | somiaj | now note, the purpose of resolvconf is to provide a tool to prevent various programs from fighting over/overwriting /etc/resolv.conf |
| 06:15.45 | birkoff | setting the line resolvconf=NO inside it is stopping it from generating but also the default resolv.conf that I supposed is generated after dhcpcd succesfully establishes is gone |
| 06:15.47 | somiaj | birkoff: it could be it was put there but not actually be used. |
| 06:17.20 | somiaj | what about the packge openresolv? |
| 06:17.23 | somiaj | do you have that installed? |
| 06:17.45 | birkoff | yeah |
| 06:18.00 | somiaj | that is just another tool that does the same thing as resolvconf |
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| 06:18.28 | somiaj | you can look into how to allow it to only let your dhcp clinet control resolv.conf or maybe just remove it if you don't need it (a lot depends on your actual setup) |
| 06:20.35 | birkoff | after removing it i'm left with |
| 06:20.37 | birkoff | # Generated by dhcpcd from eth0.dhcp |
| 06:20.50 | TheBigK02 | birkoff: sounds like u fixed it ? :) |
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| 06:21.13 | birkoff | except that I don't get the nameservers I got |
| 06:21.30 | birkoff | before I would get those, and a few seconds after the file would get overwritten by resolvconf (openresolv) |
| 06:21.31 | TheBigK02 | check the dhcpcd.conf then |
| 06:21.59 | TheBigK02 | u want to manually configure the nameservers and not retrieve them from dhcp ? |
| 06:22.18 | birkoff | ah I have domain_name_servers commented |
| 06:22.24 | birkoff | the second way |
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| 08:24.24 | andi3822 | alguien que hable espanol ? tengo una preguntita |
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| 08:28.19 | ksk | !es |
| 08:28.19 | dpkg | Este canal es de soporte técnico en Inglés para Debian. Si prefiere que el soporte sea en Español, puede ingresar en #debian-es tecleando /join #debian-es en la lÃnea de chat. - https://lists.debian.org/debian-user-spanish/ |
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| 08:37.15 | andi3822 | ksk |
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| 08:37.26 | ksk | wat |
| 08:37.36 | andi3822 | i found this folder this morning |
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| 08:37.43 | andi3822 | and i cant delete it |
| 08:37.44 | andi3822 | root@testcompute tmp]# rm -rf sakdj/ |
| 08:37.44 | andi3822 | rm: cannot remove \u2018sakdj/.bash/i686\u2019: Operation not permitted |
| 08:37.44 | andi3822 | rm: cannot remove \u2018sakdj/.bash/x86_64\u2019: Operation not permitted |
| 08:37.44 | andi3822 | rm: cannot remove \u2018sakdj/.bash/bash\u2019: Operation not permitted |
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| 08:37.52 | andi3822 | ogh sorry |
| 08:37.59 | ksk | !paste |
| 08:37.59 | dpkg | Do not paste more than 2 lines to this channel. Instead, use for text: https://paste.debian.net | pics/screenshots: https://imgbb.com/ or https://imgur.com/upload | large files up to 100MB (think tar.gz): https://filebin.net or https://wikisend.com | Remember to tell us the URL of your paste! Cannot cut and paste? Ask me about <pastebinit>, <nopaste>, <termbin>. |
| 08:37.59 | andi3822 | is there any solution ? |
| 08:38.10 | ksk | use this to paste more than one line of output, refer the generated link to us. |
| 08:38.35 | ksk | andi3822: as it is in /tmp - have you just tried rebooting? |
| 08:38.51 | ksk | the filenames look -very- strange.. |
| 08:38.55 | andi3822 | yep |
| 08:39.00 | andi3822 | it runs a process |
| 08:39.04 | andi3822 | that eats my cpu |
| 08:39.08 | andi3822 | i think is a miner |
| 08:39.15 | andi3822 | i did lsof it |
| 08:39.16 | ksk | !reinstall |
| 08:39.16 | dpkg | reinstall is, like, aptitude reinstall '~i' ; or COLUMNS=200 dpkg -l | awk '/^[hi]i/{print $2}' | xargs apt-get -y --reinstall install, or dpkg --get-selections > my_packages.txt , then later, dpkg --set-selections < my_packages.txt && apt-get install . See also <aptitude clone>, <debian clone>. |
| 08:39.19 | andi3822 | and i found the folder |
| 08:39.23 | ksk | eh. no, not that. |
| 08:39.33 | andi3822 | but i cant delete it |
| 08:39.37 | ksk | You should reinstall your Debian box, seems it got owned. |
| 08:39.45 | andi3822 | omg :\ |
| 08:39.54 | ksk | Then you should: Power it down. Take the harddrive. Create an Image. Reinstall Server |
| 08:40.12 | ksk | mount image on second server, copy over contents you need. transfer contents to newly installed server |
| 08:40.32 | ksk | and make sure to actually update / secure the server, before you put it back in the internet |
| 08:41.18 | ksk | Depending on how paranoid you are, mounting an HDD from that compromised server could also already be a nogo of course, so you might use a livesystem, "read only wirering", or whatnot.. |
| 08:41.51 | ksk | Seeking proffessional help might also be a valid option! |
| 08:42.18 | AskerX | andi3822 hi there, I just joined and this got interesting, what happened exactly that it seems your system is probably owned? |
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| 08:43.30 | andi3822 | this is what i find |
| 08:43.36 | andi3822 | in the folder i cant remove |
| 08:43.42 | andi3822 | are 3 things |
| 08:43.59 | AskerX | oh, those up there? you pasted? |
| 08:44.03 | andi3822 | bash , x86_64 and i686 |
| 08:44.11 | andi3822 | so i can cat bash |
| 08:44.14 | andi3822 | and appears this |
| 08:44.25 | AskerX | got it, |
| 08:44.26 | andi3822 | #!/bin/bash |
| 08:44.26 | andi3822 | cd -- /usr/sbin/.sql./.bash |
| 08:44.33 | andi3822 | mkdir -- .bash |
| 08:44.42 | andi3822 | cp -f -- x86_64 .bash/bash |
| 08:44.50 | andi3822 | ./.bash/bash -c |
| 08:44.54 | andi3822 | rm -rf .bash |
| 08:44.57 | ksk | he also mentioned "something using all his cpu" - so thats a strong indication ;) |
| 08:45.00 | andi3822 | this is all |
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| 08:45.08 | AskerX | yeah yeah saw *that* up there, have you looked into the processes that might be locking that ... |
| 08:45.11 | AskerX | oh the CPU |
| 08:45.13 | AskerX | yeah |
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| 08:45.26 | ksk | Thing is: If you got owned, you cannot trust the linux anymore to tell you anything meaningful. |
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| 08:45.30 | andi3822 | 22300 root 20 0 2437388 6936 4 S 387.1 0.0 54:38.78 -bash |
| 08:45.41 | andi3822 | 387.1 %CPU |
| 08:45.43 | AskerX | :| |
| 08:45.49 | jelly | that's not a bash, that's a miner :-) |
| 08:46.02 | jelly | and your machine got 4 cores |
| 08:46.36 | AskerX | andi3822 any specific services you were running on this platform, I mean if anything I would think it would be educational to prevent it from happening again if you move to a new system |
| 08:46.51 | jelly | and if they got root, then yes you can't trust ANYTHING on that system any more. Backup, install fresh. restore data carefully and configure services from scratch |
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| 08:47.22 | AskerX | jelly is the possibility of altered firmware out of the question ? |
| 08:47.26 | jelly | keep a cloned copy, preferably with memory state, if you want to do forensics latest |
| 08:47.40 | jelly | AskerX, 4 cores sounds like a VM |
| 08:48.01 | AskerX | oh, |
| 08:48.04 | jelly | it's not "out of the question" but it's less likely |
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| 08:48.31 | ThoMe | hiho |
| 08:48.34 | ThoMe | i try run a remote command via ssh, like: ssh dest-hostr echo "Server: $(hostname)" |
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| 08:48.39 | ThoMe | but hostname is execute local |
| 08:48.48 | ThoMe | any ideas what I can to for execute on remote mashine? |
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| 08:49.14 | unborn | morning, guys which pinentry should I install ? I would like to use it on my gnome however as well as in terminal.. |
| 08:49.19 | jelly | ThoMe, everything inside double quotes is interpreted by the local shell. Use single quotes around the whole command |
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| 08:50.13 | ThoMe | ah ok |
| 08:50.14 | jelly | ThoMe, ssh dest-hostr 'echo "Server: $(hostname)"' |
| 08:50.23 | AskerX | https://www.unix.com/shell-programming-and-scripting/114487-ssh-remote-commands-echo-oh-my.html |
| 08:50.29 | ThoMe | jelly: thank you. works fine |
| 08:50.44 | jelly | otherwise that $( ) is done locally, and only then is the ssh command run |
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| 10:54.18 | aphorise | If I have a APT URL that's debian or ubuntu apt mirror - is there a way to check which version of those distro's it supports? |
| 10:55.47 | oxek | aphorise: you can likely browse that repo using a browser |
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| 10:57.32 | themill | asking the people who made it |
| 10:57.44 | hejux | printf "%s\n" "name1 bob" "name2 david", i'd like name1 to be RED COLOR, name2 to be GREEN COLOR, bob and david to be no color . how can i do it |
| 10:59.06 | hejux | sorry not here, i was asking #bash |
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| 11:13.50 | aphorise | I have the URL of the APT bust I cant seem to explore it. |
| 11:14.23 | aphorise | When I do apt-get update && apt-cache search - all works fine with the repo - but I'm trying to figure out how I can curl or browse it |
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| 11:15.09 | aphorise | keeping 404 when I try to explore example: https://apt.releases.hashicorp.com/buster/ |
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| 11:17.16 | oxek | aphorise: https://apt.releases.hashicorp.com/dists/buster/Release |
| 11:17.24 | oxek | there are various well-known paths in repositories |
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| 11:18.43 | aphorise | I wonder if there's a way I can check all supported dists :-) |
| 11:18.48 | aphorise | thanks oxek |
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| 11:19.20 | oxek | maybe try combinations of https://apt.releases.hashicorp.com/dists/<some distribution name>/Release |
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| 11:25.05 | aphorise | oxek perfect thank you |
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| 12:56.18 | dob1 | what do you think about this solution for running tcpdump as normal user ? https://gist.github.com/zapstar/3d2ff4f345b43ce7918889053503ef84 |
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| 13:01.12 | jelly | dob1, in general you'd use dpkg-statoverride to set custom group and mod on packaged executables, sadly it doesn't handle setcap yet. You probably also want to chmod o-x ? |
| 13:01.46 | jelly | package upgrades will destroy your customizations |
| 13:02.15 | jelly | in general your approach seems sane |
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| 13:07.33 | dob1 | jelly, if I want just a temporary solution, suid is a better way? (I know this will enable it for every user but I am the only one) |
| 13:10.38 | dob1 | my real use for this is to be able to do "ssh user@host tcpdump -s0 -w - | wireshark -k -i -" |
| 13:11.06 | jelly | dob1, setcap is slightly safer (but cap_net_admin is too much already and can be abused via netlink to gain actual root) |
| 13:11.46 | jelly | dob1, heh. Don't forget -U |
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| 13:12.39 | jelly | I usually do tcpdump -w /tmp/blah.pcap ... remotely, then sshfs mount and wireshark -r ~/mnt/server/tmp/blah.pcap |
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| 13:17.00 | dob1 | jelly, nice I will try this |
| 13:19.28 | jelly | that doesn't give you realtime tracking, wireshark will just tell you the file was updated and whether you want to reload it |
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| 13:24.00 | dob1 | jelly, it's still a solution |
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| 13:48.53 | cosimone | hello, i have a very weird issue, hopefully someone can point me out in a useful direction |
| 13:49.49 | cosimone | i have a fresh debian buster install on a laptop. so far so good, everything seems to work except for one thing: a specific usb port (usb 3) really doesn't seem to like external drives formatted in ntfs |
| 13:49.57 | cosimone | if plugged into a usb 2, it works |
| 13:50.01 | NetTerminalGene | guys, i want to install albert launcher. i downloaded deb file from their official site and after that i did "dpkg -i albert.deb" but it doesn't install dependencies. what should i do? |
| 13:50.10 | cosimone | if anything else is plugged into that cursed usb 3 port, it works |
| 13:50.29 | cosimone | by "doesn't like", i mean it doesn't even see it: nothing even comes up in dmesg |
| 13:51.07 | cosimone | i'm wondering if this is has to do with a kernel issue. i don't remember having this problem with newer, non-buster linux kernels |
| 13:51.27 | cosimone | maybe not an issue per se, just missing functionality from this old-ish version |
| 13:51.56 | cosimone | i apologize if i wasn't clear enough, but i have no idea what could cause this |
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| 13:58.05 | sigint | NetTerminalGene, "apt install -f" to install the missing dependencies I belive |
| 13:59.56 | NetTerminalGene | sigint: thanks i installed using apt install ./whatever.deb |
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| 14:14.51 | jelly | dob1, yes. If you're capturing everything, and connecting ssh or sshfs, remember to tell tcpdump not to record your (ssh client ip and ssh port) traffic |
| 14:15.54 | jelly | tcpdump -ni eth0 not \( host jelly.work.station ip and port 22 \) |
| 14:16.35 | jelly | maybe you're lucky enough to have a separate iface for ssh / administration |
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| 14:39.56 | coc0nut | deleting windowsapps folder from previous windows installation makes you more l33t than any debian user can ever become guys! |
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| 15:05.11 | imMute | <PROTECTED> |
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| 15:15.29 | GNU\colossus | imMute, see for yourself: strace -e trace=connect logger -t test hi there |
| 15:17.27 | GNU\colossus | (spoiler: that will lead you to "/dev/log" - you can use `sudo fuser /dev/log` or similar commands to have a peek who has that file open. your syslogd will be amongst those PIDs showing up.) |
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| 15:18.25 | imMute | ah good idea. thanks for the tip |
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| 15:38.41 | striking7 | Hey all - I'm trying to get a debootstrap running on a small armhf machine. DNS works fine, but apt still can't resolve ports.ubuntu.com |
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| 15:38.49 | striking7 | wget, ping, etc all handle DNS great |
| 15:38.58 | striking7 | it seems to just be apt that can't do it. |
| 15:39.04 | striking7 | Anyone have a clue why that would happen? |
| 15:39.42 | striking7 | It doesn't seem to be anything having to do with ssl or certificates - those are all chillin' in /etc/ssl/certs just fine |
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| 15:40.19 | striking7 | (or rather, the symlinks to /usr/share/ca-certificates/mozilla are just fine) |
| 15:42.07 | striking7 | I get this message: Something wicked happened resolving 'ports.ubuntu.com:80' (-5 - No address associated with hostname) |
| 15:42.22 | striking7 | I tried adding the ip address manually to /etc/hosts, that didn't help either |
| 15:42.30 | striking7 | Is apt not using the standard gethostbyname()? |
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| 15:50.15 | striking7 | Oh I almost forgot: /etc/resolv.conf has two entries in it pointing to google's public DNS: 8.8.8.8, etc |
| 15:50.24 | striking7 | and pings to 8.8.8.8 go through fine |
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| 16:15.30 | imMute | striking7: it almost looks like it's thinking the ":80" is part of the hostname... if it's a HTTP URL you don't need that port number anyway, so maybe try removing it? |
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| 16:17.04 | imMute | oh, no that's not it. https://github.com/Debian/apt/blob/766b24b7f7484751950c76bc66d3d6cdeaf949a5/methods/connect.cc#L436 |
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| 16:17.16 | imMute | it uses getaddrinfo(), see line 408 |
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| 16:29.45 | ghostwander | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:31.45 | striking7 | imMute: Thanks for the response - and the great source lookup (line 408). |
| 16:32.06 | striking7 | My sources.list is just this: deb http://ports.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-ports bionic main |
| 16:32.10 | striking7 | I didn't specify the port |
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| 16:38.44 | oxek | striking7: debootstrap does not use sources.list |
| 16:40.06 | oxek | can you try, just to test working debootstrap, running this: `sudo debootstrap --arch amd64 stable /stable-chroot/ https://deb.debian.org/debian/` |
| 16:40.08 | striking7 | I noticed that too, though, imMute - not sure where it's tacking on the :80 |
| 16:40.29 | oxek | it will debootstrap a working debian-stable to /stable-chroot/ |
| 16:40.36 | oxek | you can delete that directory afterwards |
| 16:40.58 | striking7 | oxek - will do. I should probably try with armhf though, right? |
| 16:41.11 | oxek | striking7: doesn't matter, that's the point of debootstrap |
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| 16:41.45 | oxek | if it works, then you need to be asking whoever is dealing with ports.ubuntu.com, since this is #debian support channel |
| 16:43.46 | striking7 | Thanks oxek - I'll give it a shot |
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| 16:44.28 | Franciman | Hi, is it possible to use debian with a different service manager than systemd? |
| 16:44.39 | oxek | Franciman: yes |
| 16:44.41 | striking7 | Franciman: it is. Mx Linux does |
| 16:44.58 | striking7 | (or at least did - I haven't checked on it for a while) |
| 16:45.01 | oxek | ignoring mxlinux, even pure debian can do it |
| 16:45.07 | striking7 | ^ |
| 16:45.42 | Franciman | oxek, how do I install a fresh system without systemd ? |
| 16:46.06 | oxek | Franciman: debootstrapping it would be one way |
| 16:46.30 | oxek | but from a regular installation, you can install the other service managers and then remove systemd |
| 16:47.16 | Franciman | thanks |
| 16:47.27 | Franciman | long live the free software movement |
| 16:47.28 | Franciman | and debian |
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| 16:54.46 | sigint | He left but he could have checked Devuan |
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| 16:59.21 | ddsys | yeah Devuan is nice. asks during install what service manager you want. |
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| 17:02.00 | cws | But there's no real point. |
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| 17:44.35 | RoyK | ,v restic |
| 17:44.36 | judd | Package: restic on amd64 -- stretch: 0.3.3-1+b2; buster: 0.9.4+ds-2+b1; bullseye: 0.11.0-1+b2; sid: 0.11.0-1+b2; experimental: 0.12.0-1 |
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| 18:05.25 | debron | hello. |
| 18:05.27 | debron | https://paste.ofcode.org/D5iD6u2NgCumyAMgKZKBKk |
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| 18:05.56 | debron | does this piece of dmesg means that this device will not get a usb.device_address? |
| 18:06.19 | debron | thats what i can see after plugin this device |
| 18:06.59 | sney | possibly, see if it's listed in lsusb at bus 001 port 003 |
| 18:07.29 | debron | no its not there |
| 18:08.05 | sney | ok, then yeah the kernel is failing to set up the device. it's most likely a buggy controller on the device itself. |
| 18:08.28 | debron | i probably would need to set debug mode in the device first... |
| 18:08.30 | debron | damn... |
| 18:08.39 | debron | its a propietary device, im not supossed to be trying this |
| 18:08.46 | debron | so they probably added some security on it |
| 18:08.55 | sney | oh yes, that's very possible |
| 18:09.14 | sney | it might not even be USB if it's a proprietary device, they just used the connector |
| 18:09.31 | debron | usually something would be needed to enable debug or something right? making some bridge between some pins or something like that |
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| 18:09.46 | debron | I see... |
| 18:10.12 | debron | its a mini-usb interface on the device |
| 18:10.14 | debron | but it was hidden |
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| 18:13.31 | debron | https://postimg.cc/gallery/B1qtSnf |
| 18:13.34 | debron | thats the device :P |
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| 18:15.47 | sney | you've got those other pins for prog/debug and uart, if you want to get into this thing then those might be a better option. the usb connector could even be 5V/2A power only with no data. |
| 18:15.58 | sney | but this is kind of out of #debian's scope now |
| 18:16.13 | debron | oki, thanks you for the information! |
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| 18:16.30 | sney | np |
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| 19:59.36 | wald0 | seems like the next stable is near |
| 20:00.40 | wald0 | anybody knows if is possible to use sysvinit instead of systemd ? (i mean, by default without follwoing external howtos) |
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| 20:01.05 | jhutchins | wald0: No. |
| 20:01.08 | sney | no, debian's default init system is systemd. |
| 20:01.20 | sney | if you want a sysvinint based system, there are derivatives for that. |
| 20:02.19 | cws | wald0: And its not worth the trouble. |
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| 20:09.06 | knob | Hello |
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| 20:27.03 | knob | Test |
| 20:27.09 | wald0 | jhutchins: cws: just wondering, since so many people seems to be interested on getting rid of systemd |
| 20:27.57 | imMute | wald0: the default for debian is systemd. to get something else you're either going to need to do some work or use a different distro (like Devuan). |
| 20:28.13 | oxek | wald0: it is technically possible to remove systemd and use a different init system on debian |
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| 20:30.41 | dondelelcaro | you can even do that at install time if you want; it just requires knowing how to pass preseed options |
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| 20:31.31 | cws | It is, however, not worth the trouble. |
| 20:31.41 | cws | Learn systemd and use Debian and have fun. |
| 20:32.36 | cws | wald0: The incredible majority of people trying to get rid of systemd are doing so on purely philosophical/emotional grounds and have next to no understanding of systemd from a technological perspective. It's an old and tired argument. |
| 20:34.04 | knob | cws: don't let logic get between me and my emotions!! |
| 20:34.06 | dondelelcaro | yep; there's a reason why systemd is the default. But that said, you can always choose a different default. It's just not as well suported |
| 20:34.06 | knob | lol |
| 20:34.32 | cws | I don't believe it's supported at all. |
| 20:34.34 | imMute | dondelelcaro: if you can choose, it's not a default. |
| 20:34.51 | imMute | or rather, once you choose, it's no longer a default. |
| 20:34.52 | dondelelcaro | cws: it's still "supported" |
| 20:34.53 | cws | If its included with the system, its a default. Do we need to discuss what the word default means? I certainly hope not. |
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| 20:35.05 | johnfg | hi folks |
| 20:35.14 | knob | o/ johnfg ! |
| 20:35.58 | imMute | cws: what is the default init for Debian? systemd. can you choose sysvinit? sure. but that's not the default. user's don't choose the default, the debian project did - that's my point. |
| 20:36.09 | cws | imMute: Okay, but there IS a default. |
| 20:36.20 | johnfg | I needed to install python3-certbot-nginx, for certbot, just for temporary. It ended up that it installed nginx too. |
| 20:36.32 | imMute | cws: my first statement was poorly worded, hence the followup. |
| 20:36.33 | cws | johnfg: Correct. |
| 20:36.50 | johnfg | I don't want or need nginx, as I run apache2. Is there a way to more simply remove all of nginx pkgs? |
| 20:36.54 | knob | johnfg: I would reckon it did that... as it probably saw nginx as a requirement. |
| 20:37.03 | cws | johnfg: Why would you need certbot-nginx if you use apache? |
| 20:37.04 | johnfg | knob: Yup. |
| 20:37.50 | johnfg | My domain is offsite now, on a remote host, but I needed to renew my certs. |
| 20:38.05 | cws | So configure certbot on that host instead. |
| 20:38.16 | johnfg | The host is running nginx, and I thought that's why certbot was failing it's authentication. |
| 20:38.55 | johnfg | Turns out that there's another problem, but I didn't have the nginx plugin installed, so couldn't run 'certbox --nginx'. I did, and it failed too. |
| 20:39.13 | johnfg | It's a shared host, so I can't install certbot. |
| 20:40.26 | cws | So you plan on manually renewing and installing a cert very 60-90 days? And your shared host doesn't support LE? |
| 20:40.28 | johnfg | cws: so my immediate question: how could I remove *all* of the nginx pkgs. I wish they would have all been removed when I removed and purged python3-certbot-nginx, but they weren't. |
| 20:40.44 | imMute | johnfg: remove the ones you installed and then use autoremove. |
| 20:40.50 | cws | ^ |
| 20:41.24 | folti7777 | @johnfg maybe you would be happier with System V distro Devuan. It runs great on my 13 years old laptop. Pure Sys V or openrc :) |
| 20:41.33 | slimefoot | johnfg: --purge removes config files, not dependencies - you probably wanted `autoremove` |
| 20:41.50 | slimefoot | johnfg: but you can just autoremove nginx now |
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| 20:42.22 | cws | folti7777: His issue is with nginx and certbot, so why are you in here trolling for Devuan? |
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| 20:42.58 | folti7777 | sorry, not trolling, I read that john wants oldskul sys v init... |
| 20:43.00 | cws | besides, if sysv or openrc were that good, they wouldn't have been replaced. :) |
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| 20:43.15 | cws | folti7777: No, you didn't, because at no point was that said. |
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| 20:43.31 | folti7777 | argumentum ad maiorem is not logically valid, but let's not flame... |
| 20:43.36 | johnfg | Actually, not to keep things going, but I've used systemd almost from its inception. |
| 20:44.26 | slimefoot | johnfg: but also, using LE without having permissions to fully manage your system doesn't sound like fun - typically TLS certificate handling is up to the local sysadmin, not the unprivileged user |
| 20:44.27 | cws | folti7777: Mistaking the technical decision of the Debian project for a judgment of popularity is the logical fallacy, here. |
| 20:44.46 | cws | folti7777: You're trolling and putting words in other users' mouths. You should stop. |
| 20:45.06 | folti7777 | omg, ok |
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| 20:46.34 | johnfg | slimefoot: I get that. They do have an AutoSSL feature in their cpanel that I can use, but I don't think it will be like I renewing them here. |
| 20:46.56 | cws | johnfg: You should confirm whether or not they support LE through their cPanel interface before going this route. |
| 20:47.33 | cws | Actually, that IS AutoSSL. |
| 20:47.37 | johnfg | cws: They do, through AutoSSL. That's how they answered the question about allowing me to install certbot. |
| 20:47.43 | cws | So... Use that? |
| 20:47.52 | cws | I fail to see the issue at this point. |
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| 20:48.29 | johnfg | I guess even if it generates new certs vs. renewing the old certs, what's the difference, eh? |
| 20:48.34 | cws | Correct. |
| 20:48.54 | johnfg | Alright, thanks all for the help! |
| 20:49.08 | cws | Glad we could save you a TON of trouble. :P |
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| 20:52.09 | johnfg | cws: You really did. I even didn't have to select for it to run now, which it did. the certs would have renewed automatically. |
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| 20:57.29 | johnfg | ttyl! |
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| 21:00.18 | johnfg | slimefoot: autoremove didn't remove the nginx pkgs, nor did apt autoremove nginx. Is there another way to do it? Other than doing the search, then uninstalling each pkg? |
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| 21:02.36 | slimefoot | johnfg: is the package even called nginx, or is it something else? or is it still installed? (I'm not sure if you can autoremove a package that isn't present...) |
| 21:02.43 | wald0 | cws: im not saying the contrary, by other side im pretty concerned about the min ram needed to run a basic system which is growing everyday, and maybe not systemd specifically but many related components makes it more bloated |
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| 21:06.54 | johnfg | Here's what's installed that I want to get rid of: https://paste.debian.net/1194047/ |
| 21:07.08 | slimefoot | wald0: (memory) resources shouldn't really be a concern with systemd - and if it is, I doubt any of the general purpose init systems is going to improve much there |
| 21:09.04 | johnfg | A person could use awk to cut the first part of those lines I guess, and then run apt remove on them. |
| 21:09.06 | slimefoot | johnfg: try removing nginx-full, then |
| 21:09.17 | slimefoot | er, autoremoving... |
| 21:09.31 | imMute | johnfg: I believe those "automatic" parts mean the package was installed to satisfy a dependency. so something still depends on nginx-full |
| 21:10.01 | slimefoot | or yeah, this ^ - just `apt autoremove` should already address them - if not, it's still required by something else |
| 21:10.06 | wald0 | slimefoot: yeah i didnt experienced much difference in a test some months ago removing systemd |
| 21:10.11 | wald0 | switching to sysvinit * |
| 21:10.48 | johnfg | slimefoot: Yup, your way worked, to remove nginx-full, then all the rest were autoremoved. |
| 21:11.22 | imMute | johnfg: did it remove something else that wasn't in that list you posted? |
| 21:12.04 | johnfg | imMute: It didn't. Did my wording confuse the matter? |
| 21:12.08 | folti7777 | (@wald0:if you know how to manage unit files, systemd really isn't the problem- you just have to know what to enable/disable. all init systems have their pros and cons. But hey, let's not "troll" giving "opinions". And you are right-systemd is bloatware in practice. Guy did a great thing with pulseaudio, but his ego couldn't swallow the fact that for many less experienced users systemd is sacttered hell) |
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| 21:12.53 | imMute | johnfg: from your apt search output, nginx-full was installed automatically, ie as a dependency of something else. since autoremove didn't remove nginx-full, that something else must still be on the system. apt wouldn't let you remove nginx-full without also removing that somethign else as well |
| 21:13.41 | johnfg | imMute: I guess time will tell. No errors when I removed it, and apache2 is running fine. |
| 21:14.05 | imMute | you could also look at the dpkg log to see what was installed and removed. |
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| 21:15.34 | slimefoot | wald0: what's the usecase anyway? if this is a desktop system, an init system's resource consumption is pretty irrelevant, because even the smallest graphical application will already require significantly more resources |
| 21:16.40 | johnfg | slimefoot: Well, I don't see anything funky in dpkg.log, so I'll hope for the best. |
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| 21:16.47 | wald0 | slimefoot: not everybody uses gnomebloat or kdebloat :) |
| 21:16.54 | slimefoot | wald0: doesn't matter |
| 21:17.09 | wald0 | slimefoot: yes it does, my WM uses 50 mb at much |
| 21:17.20 | folti7777 | @slimefoot: it's more a question of control. And habits, of course. wald0 is right- many of us use i3, openbox and lighter wm's |
| 21:17.29 | slimefoot | wald0: congratulations - and do you browse the web in that 50mb web browser? |
| 21:17.35 | slimefoot | *WM |
| 21:18.03 | wald0 | slimefoot: that's the biggest BIGGEST issue today in trying to keep your sysstem light, the so so hell bloated browsers, damn |
| 21:18.22 | folti7777 | guys, let's not turn this into a flame war.... |
| 21:18.42 | slimefoot | wald0: exactly - until you abandon the Web, you probably don't have to worry about your init system's resource consumptions :-) |
| 21:18.43 | wald0 | its really a shame how this "single" thing eats all the existing RAM in the entire planet |
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| 21:19.32 | oxek | download more RAM then |
| 21:19.37 | slimefoot | (and even without Web browsers, just any GTK+ or Qt application will be a bigger issue than a basic system component) |
| 21:19.38 | wald0 | slimefoot: well, the truth is that i only use web when i need to check email / forum, the rest of the time i keep it closed just because of that reason |
| 21:20.19 | wald0 | oxek: today's laptops has even ram soldered (just to annoy a bit more the ppeople trying to upgrade them, i mean, needing to buy another computer) |
| 21:20.43 | wald0 | and im pretty surprised how the actual new computers still having not "so much" ram (like 8, maybe even 4?) |
| 21:20.45 | folti7777 | for god sakes, when did debian community become so...centOS-like??? |
| 21:21.22 | wald0 | slimefoot: i dont think gtk really needs much ram resouces, it does? |
| 21:21.33 | folti7777 | gtk3 does |
| 21:21.34 | cws | looks at his brand-new laptop with 64gb of non-soldered ram |
| 21:21.39 | cws | wald0: Not all of 'em. |
| 21:21.40 | ratrace | I use i3-wm. I have 32GB of RAM on that machine. couldn't care less about sbin/init's 8MB |
| 21:21.45 | oxek | cws: what laptop is that? |
| 21:21.49 | cws | XPS 15. |
| 21:22.06 | oxek | that's pretty cool that it is not soldered on and can handle 64G |
| 21:22.09 | wald0 | mmh... what a waste of resources (gtk3)... gtk2 was fine! |
| 21:22.28 | cws | wald0: Honest question, are you in here to just complain that everything didn't stagnate ten years ago? |
| 21:22.30 | folti7777 | @wald0, couldn't agree more :) |
| 21:22.37 | oxek | cws: does debian work on it with zero issues, or did you have to jump through some hoops? |
| 21:22.50 | oxek | (I take no issue with non-free firmware) |
| 21:22.58 | cws | oxek: Wireless, that was about it. |
| 21:23.26 | cws | I debootstrapped the NVMe SSD with the backports kernel in an enclosure, threw it in, off we went. |
| 21:23.34 | oxek | takes notes |
| 21:24.02 | oxek | so I guess the xps 15 is easy to take apart then? Remove ssd, ... |
| 21:24.05 | slimefoot | wald0: anyway, the gist is: unless you have good (i.e. not ideology or "habits", but true technical) reasons to switch the init system, it's probably the thing you want to swap out the very last - and things like "switch the distro" probably should come first on your list - just for the sake of keeping the system reasonably maintainable |
| 21:24.05 | cws | oxek: Tip, though, if you get the XPS 15: Do NOT get the i9. |
| 21:24.09 | cws | oxek: Oh my god, its child's play. |
| 21:24.13 | wald0 | cws: honest answer: no, i just enter to ask if bullseye will be more compatible with sysvinit than buster, the convo turned about a resources usage convo |
| 21:24.23 | cws | wald0: Why do you CARE about sysvinit? |
| 21:24.29 | cws | oxek: Dell publishes the entire service guide. |
| 21:25.00 | oxek | cws: looks like dell managed to make a useable laptop for once, thanks for the info |
| 21:25.02 | wald0 | cws: and the truth is that there's a lot of understimation of ram, big waste, like all those "atom" applications and similar... why to waste so much GB for a hello world app? it just doesn't makes sense (can make to those who dont care) |
| 21:25.08 | cws | oxek: https://www.dell.com/support/manuals/en-us/xps-15-9500-laptop/xps-15-9500-service-manual/ |
| 21:25.21 | folti7777 | cws: why are you attacking wald0's legit opinion? |
| 21:25.22 | cws | wald0: Okay, but why do you care about sysvinit/systemd? |
| 21:25.37 | wald0 | also debian runs on very small devices, ram waste should be a much more imporptant topic, it is everyday more understimated |
| 21:26.13 | folti7777 | @wald0, forget it, we're to old for this New Kids On The Block :D |
| 21:26.27 | cws | wald0: You're being incredibly silly/misinformed, here. This system that I'm on now, running weechat and like 17 different zsh terminals in tmux, is using 180MB RAM total. |
| 21:26.54 | wald0 | cws: me not much, but i have seen some people interested on removing systemd so i was asking about how much was this on bullseye |
| 21:27.23 | cws | wald0: Okay, but stop. If THEY want to remove systemd and keep the broken pieces of the system that will inevitably result, THEY can do that. |
| 21:27.48 | cws | wald0: If you don't care, then stop perpetuating this quite inane discussion, please. |
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| 21:28.08 | wald0 | folti7777: hum, but new kids are novices, we need to teach the good habits instead of be conformists and letting them destroy the world :) |
| 21:28.32 | oxek | wald0: in any case, bullseye is offtopic in here |
| 21:28.35 | oxek | !debian-next |
| 21:28.35 | dpkg | #debian-next is the channel for testing/unstable support on the OFTC network (irc.oftc.net), *not* on freenode. If you get "Cannot join #debian-next (Channel is invite only)." it means you did not read it's on irc.oftc.net. See also https://wiki.debian.org/IRC and https://wiki.debian.org/GettingHelpOnIrc |
| 21:28.42 | cws | wald0: I don't think you need to refer to a troll in the channel for "good habits." |
| 21:29.00 | cws | Anyway, let's return to the topic of supporting actually-supported Debian stable systes. |
| 21:29.01 | wald0 | cws: ok, no more debate about systemd, i was just asking because i dont know the state of that in bullseye |
| 21:29.02 | cws | +m |
| 21:29.02 | folti7777 | waldo: unfortunately every projct, after some time, turns into crap... |
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| 21:29.14 | cws | wald0: If you don't want systemd, don't use Debian, that's the state. |
| 21:29.17 | wald0 | cws: and yeah, i stated before that in my experiements it didnt changed much on ram usage (systemd/sysvinit) |
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| 21:30.24 | wald0 | folti7777: that depends, after so much hundreds of programming languages around, more or less known, C stills at the top and after so long, because of a reason |
| 21:31.05 | cws | wald0: Familiarity and inertia. As a security professional, I love the fact that C still sees wide use, it means that there are a litany of otherwise easily-avoided security problems that will keep me employed for decades. |
| 21:32.23 | wald0 | cws: yeah but C still giving many things that other languages cannot compete easily (speed, lightness, amount of libs, you can write anything with that, etc) |
| 21:32.47 | cws | rust is faster, anyone can write a library, any turing-complete language can write anything, so all of those responses are crap. |
| 21:33.22 | cws | C isn't magic, its just well-known. |
| 21:34.00 | folti7777 | wald0: , as I said, I understand your perspective perfectly. For me, the wayland will be abandoned 'cause even unmaintained compton still does the grat job concerning compositing (if you even need it). C is still the king, but kids don't get. Java/Kotlin, javascript, html5...it's like a religion now. |
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| 21:36.28 | cws | That feeling when you go to take a sip of your beer and its an empty bottle. |
| 21:37.34 | folti7777 | cws: then go to the pub and stop attacking people for their TASTE. early-adopter crappy bs is all you gave in this micro-discussion. |
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| 22:07.43 | wald0 | folti7777: i think we have a serious problem here, because we (soft devs, maintainers, distro makers, etc) are putting our efforts everyday making this a better world (in software level), and we should not let allow the effort making things good to become bad because of human stupidity (to call it in some form, no offense) |
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| 22:08.57 | wald0 | it is of course perfectly understandable that a bunch of students discover how to do hello world in atom will be amazed on that and write things in social media and become the new fashion, than a pro telling about the optimizations that has writting a hello world using specific flags compilers lol |
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| 22:09.48 | wald0 | i have seen also some (very good) projects to die because of the lack of X when they were better / more valuable than other things that survived better just because "they sell better" or by fashion |
| 22:11.15 | folti7777 | hahaha, yes, the shit always go up. It doesn't matter. As an old slackware guy, I'll just change distro when Debian will run only for the newer machines |
| 22:12.18 | wald0 | i dont want to see that day |
| 22:13.18 | wald0 | i still have some screenshots of years ago with a 200 MB ram laptop where I ran SO MANY applications on the desktop, on these days you can literally have anything because all of them consume nothing |
| 22:13.30 | cws | !offtopic |
| 22:13.30 | dpkg | #debian is primarily a support channel for Debian users. Please keep the discussions in #debian on-topic and take longer discussions and non-support questions to #debian-offtopic. Imagine the chaos if each of the hundreds of people in the channel felt the need to wander off topic for a few minutes every day. |
| 22:13.31 | folti7777 | me neither, but what to do? Attack kids? Lowering ourselves to their level? They beat us with "experience". |
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| 22:13.48 | folti7777 | ok, dpkg, taken into account |
| 22:14.17 | wald0 | you have now a bloated browser (any of htem) that turns on entire trash your computer... thats the worst, WM are quite bloated too, but if you go deep inside you see many things that was not needed (pulseaudio, between 30 or 50mb for nothing, so alsa always did a good job) |
| 22:14.27 | wald0 | consolekit, polkit, gvfs.... |
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| 22:14.45 | cws | wald0: Please take this to #debian-offtopic. |
| 22:14.57 | wald0 | ok |
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| 22:15.36 | wald0 | in any case, see ya :) have some work to do! |
| 22:15.43 | folti7777 | cya :) |
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