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| 00:00.59 | aliray | jmcnaught, thanks for your help. I'll look into it another time |
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| 00:20.01 | ikus060 | ok, I've tested on the same hwardware (my laptop) with Linux 4.19 (debian buster) and Linux 5.4 (debian bulleye). Connecting the CyberPower USB cable on 5.4 connect and disconnect. While 4.19 connected and stay connected |
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| 00:32.17 | sney | ikus060: bullseye hasn't had 5.4 in months, you may want to test with something current. see what happens with the 5.8 in buster-backports, for instance |
| 00:33.57 | ikus060 | sney: sry, I've sent it to the wrong channel. That was to test a specific problem I have where the CyberPower USB stay connected only for 7 sec |
| 00:34.11 | ikus060 | This happen on Proxmox server (running linux 5.4) |
| 00:34.15 | sney | ah |
| 00:34.35 | ikus060 | It running linux 5.4 on a debian buster (from backport) |
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| 00:35.03 | ikus060 | While when testing with 4.19, I don't have the same issue. Now I just don't know how to debug and fix this |
| 00:35.05 | roycroft | hello, folks |
| 00:35.23 | roycroft | i have qemu/kvm installed on my laptop now, and can build virtual machines to my heart's content |
| 00:35.33 | roycroft | and they even perform decently |
| 00:35.38 | roycroft | so i am happy about that |
| 00:35.49 | ikus060 | roycroft: Thanks for sharing your joy :D |
| 00:36.02 | roycroft | on my macs, with vmware fusion, i can share folders between the host and the guest machines |
| 00:36.05 | sney | ikus060: well, if it's proxmox exclusive, you should definitely stick with the proxmox channel. if not, try with standard debian on 5.8 and see if it persists. and debian has a kernel bisecting procedure to track down the bad commit (and then report the bug and fix it) |
| 00:36.20 | roycroft | i need to do that on the debian laptop, but i don't see an obvious mechanism with qemu/virt-machine to do that |
| 00:36.29 | roycroft | am i missing something or is it not straightforward to do? |
| 00:36.36 | ikus060 | kvm is performing very well. I've made some performance testing |
| 00:37.01 | roycroft | and joy should always be shared |
| 00:37.16 | sney | roycroft: put a samba server on your host, access from guests |
| 00:37.21 | roycroft | with the hope that it is contagious |
| 00:37.21 | ikus060 | sney: I've testing with debian lice CD so far, so I can confirm it's not proxmox specific |
| 00:37.31 | sney | (or nfs, though nfs is iffy if you reboot ever) |
| 00:37.36 | roycroft | that's what i anticipated the answer woudl be, sney |
| 00:37.54 | roycroft | and the primary guest that will need to share files will be running windows 10 pro, not enterprise |
| 00:38.03 | roycroft | so nfs is right out unless i get some third-party stuff for that |
| 00:38.08 | roycroft | but smb will work |
| 00:38.59 | roycroft | i need to use autocad and solidworks and integrate those files with stuff i do on mac os/linux |
| 00:39.08 | roycroft | so they can all easily live in the same git repository |
| 00:39.35 | sney | ikus060: try with a testing livecd if you haven't, https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/weekly-live-builds/amd64/iso-hybrid/ |
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| 00:39.43 | roycroft | unless someone wants to make freecad finally useful, in which case i can consider dumping the commercial cad apps |
| 00:39.51 | roycroft | but i'm not holding my breath waiting for that |
| 00:40.03 | roycroft | if i were i'd have died of oxygen starvation many many years ago |
| 00:40.31 | sney | the ideal contributor to a project like that is someone who understands the proprietary competitors and wants an alternative, i.e. you |
| 00:40.51 | ikus060 | sney: I will give it a shot |
| 00:40.52 | sney | waiting for other people to do it is a straight train to hypoxia though, I agree |
| 00:40.54 | roycroft | i would not be the ideal contributor |
| 00:41.11 | roycroft | the project needs money |
| 00:41.18 | roycroft | but they won't go look for it |
| 00:41.24 | roycroft | i'd be willing to help them find funding |
| 00:41.34 | roycroft | but i'm not much of a coder these days |
| 00:41.42 | roycroft | i never really was a great coder |
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| 00:43.42 | roycroft | the real problem is that the maintainers don't see to be interested in getting an infusion of cash to get the project moving |
| 00:44.02 | roycroft | they seem more interested in just making little fixes here and there and never making real progress |
| 00:44.10 | sney | sounds like someone should light the proverbial fire |
| 00:44.12 | roycroft | anyway, i'll set up smb and do the shares that way |
| 00:44.23 | roycroft | it's frustrating because it's *almost* useful |
| 00:44.26 | roycroft | but it's been that way for years |
| 00:44.53 | roycroft | this is life in the universe of open source code |
| 00:45.11 | ikus060 | roycroft: monetizing opensource is not that easy to be honest |
| 00:46.19 | roycroft | this particular app i think would not be that difficult |
| 00:46.29 | roycroft | an awful lot of people would be interested |
| 00:47.03 | ikus060 | developer are not businessman, seller, marketers, etc |
| 00:47.08 | roycroft | but yes, i understand that it's not as simple as setting up a gofundme and waiting for the cash to fall out of the sky |
| 00:47.52 | ikus060 | I'm working part time on opensource project for year now and I'm starting to monetize it with help of a team to promote the project |
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| 00:56.23 | ikus060 | well, latest testing live CD is not usb bootable |
| 00:56.25 | ikus060 | :/ |
| 00:57.46 | sney | weird, sometimes the testing isos are broken otherwise but usually they still boot, heh |
| 00:58.30 | ikus060 | I've download this one: debian-live-testing-amd64-standard |
| 00:59.45 | ikus060 | Will try again with debian-testing-amd64-netinst.iso |
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| 01:08.29 | ikus060 | same problem... |
| 01:09.03 | sney | same booting problem, or same adapter disconnect problem?... |
| 01:09.08 | sney | figures |
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| 01:19.17 | ikus060 | Manage to make the iso working. I've testing with linux 5.9 and I have the same issue |
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| 01:19.40 | ikus060 | the USB disconnect after 7 sec |
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| 01:27.27 | roycroft | groovy |
| 01:27.45 | roycroft | windows 10 pro now has nfs client services |
| 01:27.51 | roycroft | that was not formerly the case |
| 01:28.05 | dvs | radical |
| 01:28.24 | roycroft | it simplifies things a lot |
| 01:28.48 | roycroft | i don't like sharing the same hierarchy using multiple protocols on my nas |
| 01:29.08 | roycroft | and i did not want to have to copy everything from the nas to the debian laptop, then nfs share it to the windows vm |
| 01:29.16 | roycroft | now i can just nfs mount from the nas directly |
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| 01:29.52 | roycroft | after i wait a week and a half for windows updates to complete and for the nfs servics to be installed :) |
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| 01:39.47 | trelane | with debian 10, I'm trying to mount an NFSv3 volume. I continually get the following error no matter how much I try to hint at mount that I want NFSv3. mount.nfs: requested NFS version or transport protocol is not supported |
| 01:39.47 | trelane | <PROTECTED> |
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| 01:48.40 | trelane | disregard, enduser gave me the wrong IP |
| 01:49.45 | roycroft | never attribute to faulty software that which can be explained by user error :) |
| 01:52.23 | trelane | roycroft, everything is user error for sufficiently advanced qualities of user |
| 01:53.01 | dvs | anything over zero |
| 01:53.34 | roycroft | a belief i've held most of my life is that laziness requires a lot of effort, as does lying |
| 01:53.44 | roycroft | and my boss of the past 20 years is a perfect example of this |
| 01:54.12 | roycroft | he is too lazy to verify anything, so when asked a question he invariably answers what he thinks may be correct |
| 01:54.18 | roycroft | and is wrong much of the time |
| 01:54.34 | roycroft | requiring a lot of extra effort to correct the thing he was wrong about |
| 01:54.58 | roycroft | it would be easier if, when asked, he would actually look up the answer and provide the correct one the first time |
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| 03:14.15 | uplime | does anyone know if there is a git-core repo for debian? i see one for ubuntu, but not for debian |
| 03:22.35 | Unit193 | uplime: Do you mean the packaging repo? Aka, https://repo.or.cz/w/git/debian.git/ ? |
| 03:23.47 | uplime | i think so, yeah. its been a while since i've messed with this stuff, but that looks like what im after |
| 03:24.40 | uplime | basically im looking for a package repo that i can add and then apt install git (but ideally the newer version of git) |
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| 03:26.40 | Unit193 | OK, well you can't add that to sources.list... |
| 03:27.03 | uplime | yeah, oops, just realized that |
| 03:28.01 | uplime | https://git-scm.com/download/linux some research online suggests that the ubuntu instructions here will work for debian, but the real problem is I can't get those to work from ansible |
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| 03:31.38 | solrize | is there a simple way to find the newest files in a directory tree? i.e. like ls -lRt but instead of showing the different subdirectories separately, i want it to descend through the entire tree to get the entire list of files at all levels, then list those files most recent first |
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| 03:35.21 | solrize | nm find . -type f -print0 | xargs -0 ls -lt | more is good enough for what i'm doing |
| 03:35.22 | solrize | thanks |
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| 03:59.37 | uplime | Unit193: apparently i was really overthinking this. i just needed to enable buster-backports |
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| 04:03.48 | Unit193 | uplime: Haha! Yes sometimes people forget about that very useful repo. |
| 04:03.59 | stinkfist | which repo |
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| 04:04.32 | Unit193 | -backports |
| 04:05.52 | stinkfist | i once ran an upgrade with backports and that made my bluetooth work |
| 04:06.04 | stinkfist | still don't know what happened |
| 04:06.17 | uplime | yeah, this is great. i've now got in my playbooks to auto enable |
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| 04:06.38 | stinkfist | blueman was just unusable |
| 04:06.38 | daniel-s | I think the current version of the (testing) debian installer is broken. |
| 04:06.57 | daniel-s | I get "No kernel modules available" within a few clicks of the installer. |
| 04:07.10 | sney | !testing installer |
| 04:07.11 | dpkg | Repeat after me: the testing installer is for testing the <installer>, not for installing <testing>. To install testing, do a minimal installation using the <stable> installer and ask me about <stable->testing>. Installer bugs should be filed against the debian-installer pseudopackage. https://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/ |
| 04:07.41 | daniel-s | Oh, I see |
| 04:08.23 | sney | so, you're probably right about it being broken. I'm sure you just caught it mid-transition |
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| 06:28.20 | sgo11 | Hi, I got a USB 3.0 drive box. When I connect it to a PC which only has USB 2.0 ports, it doesn't work. This is the dmesg https://hastebin.com/ofacecefet.yaml. But when I connect it to another PC with USB 3.0 port, it works fine. This is the working dmesg: https://hastebin.com/uzaromaxaq.yaml . So Is that possible to make it work in the PC with USB2.0 ports only? Thanks. |
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| 06:38.12 | towo^work | sgo11, this drive is witout separate power? |
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| 06:51.23 | sgo11 | towo^work: it's 4TB drive. It has a separate power. thanks a lot for your reply. |
| 06:52.22 | towo^work | sgo11, but it looks like, on that usb 2 port it can't be readed correct |
| 06:52.44 | sgo11 | I am not really sure about the true cause of the problem. I tried to plug it to USB 2.0 port of the working PC. It does not work either. That's why I thought it might be the usb version issue. |
| 06:53.35 | sgo11 | towo^work: I saw it disconnected first. There is a line "USB disconnect" before reading errors. |
| 06:54.08 | towo^work | my suggestion, use by usb 3 card |
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| 06:55.19 | sgo11 | towo^work: I have to use it with the PC which does not have usb3 ports. If it can not be solved in the software layer, I plan to buy a new usb drive box. |
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| 06:56.57 | towo^work | you can by a PCIe/PCI expansion card with usb3 |
| 06:57.02 | towo^work | *buy |
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| 06:58.55 | sgo11 | towo^work: ok, thanks for the suggestion. :) |
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| 08:40.39 | rcm888 | Is there a chanse to extend keyboard events by some means? pluggable modules? We need event for language switch. Event should have set event, and input language ID. |
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| 08:40.44 | rcm888 | *c |
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| 08:44.53 | krion | hello everyone, I try to have information on a new behavior regarding zabbix-agent package, but link for changelog is 404 on https://packages.debian.org/stretch/zabbix-agent |
| 08:45.21 | krion | looks like now zabbix-sender is in zabbix-agent package, hence break the upgrade if zabbix-sender is already installed |
| 08:47.47 | krion | Trying to get changelog for zabbix-agent 1:3.0.31+dfsg-0+deb9u1 |
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| 08:57.10 | ksk | ,v zabbix-agent |
| 08:57.11 | judd | Package: zabbix-agent on amd64 -- jessie: 1:2.2.7+dfsg-2+deb8u3; jessie-security: 1:2.2.23+dfsg-0+deb8u1; stretch: 1:3.0.7+dfsg-3; stretch-backports: 1:4.0.3+dfsg-2~bpo9+1; buster: 1:4.0.4+dfsg-1; buster-backports: 1:5.0.4+dfsg-1~bpo10+1; bullseye: 1:5.0.5+dfsg-1; sid: 1:5.0.5+dfsg-1 |
| 08:57.30 | ksk | krion: where is that version from? https://metadata.ftp-master.debian.org/changelogs//main/z/zabbix/zabbix_4.0.4+dfsg-1_changelog does not list it. |
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| 08:58.23 | ksk | You version is somehow higher than what we know was released for stretch!? |
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| 09:04.18 | wyre | what am I using when I configure the interfaces through /etc/network/interfaces file? |
| 09:04.41 | krion | ksk: stretch-updates I would say |
| 09:04.50 | krion | from security.d.o |
| 09:05.12 | tomg | wyre, i think you mean the ifupdown package |
| 09:06.03 | ksk | yes, ifupdown. |
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| 09:09.05 | krion | ksk: https://packages.debian.org/stretch/zabbix-agent |
| 09:10.40 | jelly | ,v firefox-esr |
| 09:10.41 | judd | Package: firefox-esr on amd64 -- jessie: 52.8.1esr-1~deb8u1; stretch-updates: 60.6.3esr-1~deb9u1; jessie-security: 68.9.0esr-1~deb8u2; stretch: 68.10.0esr-1~deb9u1; stretch-proposed-updates: 68.10.0esr-1~deb9u1; stretch-security: 68.10.0esr-1~deb9u1; buster: 68.12.0esr-1~deb10u1; bullseye: 78.3.0esr-2; buster-proposed-updates: 78.5.0esr-1~deb10u1; buster-security: |
| 09:10.42 | judd | 78.5.0esr-1~deb10u1; sid: 78.5.0esr-1 |
| 09:11.25 | jelly | something's fucky with the bot, stretch-security ought to be at 78.5.0esr-1~deb9u1 |
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| 09:24.23 | krion | jelly: may be it's related to some page on packages.debian.org returning 404 |
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| 09:52.37 | rcm888 | May be someone will eventually help me with generating arbitrary events with plugging in modules? |
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| 10:01.18 | tachikomas | Hello debian chan. I am trying to find a way to blacklist certain packages to use "need-restart" while having an dist-upgrade. Any idea on how i can do that ? Seems there is no straightforward way to do that. |
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| 10:02.30 | CrystalMath | i don't think apt would automatically restart your machine |
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| 10:02.49 | tachikomas | Its not the restart of the machine. But the restart of the service. |
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| 10:03.43 | tachikomas | In case of a library or binary upgrade i want to force certain packages not to be touched on an non interactive way. |
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| 10:08.14 | jelly | !policy-rc.d |
| 10:08.14 | dpkg | [policy-rc.d] a mechanism to limit what init scripts are run by maintainer scripts. See http://people.debian.org/~hmh/invokerc.d-policyrc.d-specification.txt and <invoke-rc.d>. See http://ircbots.debian.net/scripts/policy-rc.d-forbid-dpkg for an example script that disables all daemon starts and stops during package installation -- tailoring it to your needs to only skip certain daemons would be advised. |
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| 10:08.34 | jelly | tachikomas: ^ |
| 10:08.38 | tachikomas | Sweet |
| 10:08.46 | tachikomas | Thanks jelly |
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| 12:05.09 | Lope | how can I make a systemd service that runs before everything else, when a shutdown begins? |
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| 12:05.55 | Lope | I'm having a problem, where my newly installed system was shutting down super fast, but now that there's a whole bunch of filesystem stuff going on and services using them, basically the system has to exhaust the systemd timeout in order to shut down |
| 12:06.12 | Lope | Or I have to hit Ctrl-Alt-Delete a bunch of times, and then it still waits and takes quite a while. |
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| 12:06.26 | NieDzejkob | I'm trying to get OpenCL working on my AMD GPU. I installed mesa-opencl-icd, but clinfo doesn't detect my GPU |
| 12:06.38 | Lope | I want to down the services myself for a fast and graceful shutdown. |
| 12:08.06 | NieDzejkob | Lope: instead of adding a service that runs systemctl, I'd try to adjust the dependencies so that systemd downs the services in the right order |
| 12:08.40 | Lope | NieDzejkob, I'd rather not have to bugger around with the other services |
| 12:08.55 | Lope | I like having "scripts" that I can drop into a system that "just makes it work" |
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| 12:09.15 | Lope | I don't want to have to worry about new versions of each service buggering around with their systemd files and whatever. |
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| 12:09.23 | Lope | I'd rather go a level above them. |
| 12:10.59 | wrksx | Hey there |
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| 12:12.56 | wrksx | I have a debian system, with lightdm installed and the lightdm service seems to be constantly restarting. It is failing because no screen is connected to the computer, and once a monitor is plugged in it starts successfully and stop restarting over and over. |
| 12:13.54 | wrksx | Is there a known recipe to have the service/ the x server start only when a monitor is plugged? |
| 12:14.06 | otisolsen70 | I just created a new LUKS device on Debian 10. I notice now, that the LUKS device created was LUKS v2 and not LUKS v1. It was my impression that LUKS2 was experimental. Is Debian 10 defaults to LUKS2 a signal that Debian considers LUKS2 stable and production ready? Or is this not the case? |
| 12:14.45 | Brigo | Lope, here you have some examples: https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/39226/how-to-run-a-script-with-systemd-right-before-shutdown |
| 12:14.55 | Lope | otisolsen70, my impression is that luks2 is pretty old |
| 12:15.41 | Lope | otisolsen70, since you're on debian 10, that's a stable release, it's only going to use stable stuff unless you're using some backport package for cryptsetup or whatever |
| 12:16.00 | Lope | Brigo, thanks bud |
| 12:16.24 | otisolsen70 | Lope, that was my impression. And also why I was surprised that it uses LUKS2 |
| 12:16.47 | Lope | <Lope> otisolsen70, my impression is that luks2 is pretty old |
| 12:17.07 | Lope | but I'm not an expert. you can search about the history of luks2 if you're interested. |
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| 12:17.30 | Lope | my layman's understanding is that luks is just a wrapper sort of thing. |
| 12:17.40 | Lope | key management and whatever. |
| 12:17.53 | Lope | it's not the actual encryption. |
| 12:18.17 | Brigo | wrksx, it would be a nice thing, but i don't know if it is even possible. |
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| 12:18.45 | wrksx | Brigo: damn that's bad news |
| 12:18.52 | wrksx | but thanks =) |
| 12:19.20 | Brigo | wrksx, well, i just stating i don't know, maybe it is quite posible :) |
| 12:20.15 | wrksx | I'm pretty confident it IS possible, but that might require some deeper knowledge than we have |
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| 12:23.28 | Brigo | wrksx, starting with udev. |
| 12:23.32 | Lope | wrksx, why not just hack it until you find a better solution |
| 12:24.10 | wrksx | Lope: hack what? I'm not following |
| 12:24.15 | Lope | wrksx, you can learn about how to subscribe to udev notifications or whatever |
| 12:24.26 | wrksx | Lope: yeah I might have a look at that |
| 12:24.43 | Lope | failing that, you can write something that somehow listens to udev stuff, check out inotify-tools for a very hacky approach |
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| 12:25.08 | Brigo | this could be a start: https://opensource.com/article/20/2/linux-systemd-udevd |
| 12:25.10 | wrksx | I dunno much about udev, is this part of the kernel?N |
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| 12:25.26 | Lope | alternatively you could do polling. Every 1 second you check if the monitor is plugged in, and if it is, start lightdm, otherwise stop it. |
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| 12:25.48 | Brigo | it is a daemon that detects hardware updates. |
| 12:25.49 | Lope | But I'd only do polling as a LAST resort. Polling is ugly and wasteful. |
| 12:25.58 | wrksx | yeah simple aproach that coold probably work (polling) |
| 12:26.33 | Lope | it's not really much harder to include inotify-tools in your script, instead of polling |
| 12:26.48 | Lope | Assuming you can't do proper subscriptions to udev stuff. |
| 12:27.01 | Lope | You could maybe also watch dmesg's output etc. |
| 12:27.44 | wrksx | using udev seems a really clean approach |
| 12:29.18 | Lope | wrksx, please share a paste of the heart of your udev solution once you get something working, I'd be interested to see how you subscribe or whatever. |
| 12:29.50 | wrksx | Lope: will do if I try something |
| 12:30.00 | Lope | wrksx, thanks man! |
| 12:30.03 | wrksx | Found an interesting page https://medium.com/@OpenSchoolZ/how-to-automatically-mirror-screens-when-an-hdmi-cable-is-plugged-in-8af52568d245 |
| 12:30.12 | wrksx | the guys uses udev and inotify |
| 12:33.01 | Lope | wrksx, looks cool. careful copy/pasting his code, the double quotes are encoded all dodgy to some weird character |
| 12:33.06 | Lope | they're "leaning" |
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| 12:34.28 | wrksx | Lope: I'm not a copy/paste guy, but thanks for the heads up |
| 12:34.51 | wrksx | the method is interesting seems |
| 12:35.31 | Lope | wrksx, haha, so you copy with your eyes and paste with your fingers |
| 12:35.37 | Brigo | even better: https://coreos.com/os/docs/latest/using-systemd-and-udev-rules.html |
| 12:36.19 | wrksx | Brigo: oh yeah nice ty |
| 12:36.32 | Brigo | hope it helps :) |
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| 12:46.29 | wyre | when I use 'loadkeys es' it says that 'cannot open file es' in my debian live |
| 12:46.30 | Lope | Brigo, that is DOPE |
| 12:46.32 | wyre | what can I do? |
| 12:46.51 | wyre | there is not /usr/share/keymaps file apparently, why is this? |
| 12:47.00 | wyre | Brigo, o/ |
| 12:47.27 | Brigo | hi, wyre long time no seing |
| 12:47.40 | wyre | yes! ð |
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| 12:47.52 | wyre | what do you think about this loadkeys problem? ð¤ |
| 12:48.02 | Brigo | wyre, is it console-data installed? |
| 12:48.13 | wyre | Brigo, apparently I cannot install it |
| 12:49.41 | wyre | should I? |
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| 13:13.08 | wyre | Brigo, apt says that console-data is not available ð¤ |
| 13:14.13 | wyre | kbd is installed ð¤ |
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| 13:28.32 | Brigo | wyre, check your sources, it should be, it is a basic package |
| 13:28.54 | wyre | Brigo, in a live distro? |
| 13:29.22 | Brigo | wyre, then it is installed? |
| 13:29.23 | wyre | it's a basic live |
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| 13:42.02 | Lope | is there a terminal diff program that can show colour and show the 2 files side by side? |
| 13:42.02 | Lope | colordiff foo1 foo2 works |
| 13:42.14 | Lope | but if I do `colordiff --difftype=diffy foo1 foo2` it's NOT in color properly, and not side by side at all :/ |
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| 13:46.33 | wyre | Lope, vim |
| 13:46.51 | Lope | colordiff -y foo1 foo2 |
| 13:47.00 | Lope | I can't be bothered to learn vim |
| 13:47.30 | wyre | Lope, if you want to color the output you can use --color argument for diff |
| 13:47.43 | Lope | I want side by side and color |
| 13:47.50 | wyre | but you will not see the diffs side by side |
| 13:48.13 | wyre | Lope, vimdiff is the most appropriate tool that I know |
| 13:50.01 | Lope | wyre, thanks bud |
| 13:50.14 | Lope | colordiff -y does the job :) |
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| 13:51.46 | wyre | Lope, it's good to know it ð |
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| 13:54.10 | wyre | Lope, apparently you have also sdiff |
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| 14:29.07 | jpw | I am trying to establish a GRE tunnel with another host (sending erspan traffic). I am creating the interface `ip tunnel add gre1 mode gre remote w.x.y.z; ip link set up gre1` and although i can see the gre traffic coming in on the primary interface i'm unable to see the de-encapsulated traffic on the gre interface. has anyone got any pointers how to troubleshoot this? |
| 14:30.04 | jpw | a more detailed explanation of what I am attempting to do can be found here... http://vger.kernel.org/lpc_net2018_talks/erspan-linux.pdf |
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| 14:50.53 | wrksx | I managed to subscribe to udev events for the monitors beeing plugged to the ports on the graphic cards |
| 14:51.39 | wrksx | but these events are triggered by pair |
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| 14:53.47 | yetAnotherOwner | hi folks |
| 14:53.58 | yetAnotherOwner | whats happened to the official #debian at IRCNet |
| 14:54.03 | yetAnotherOwner | or wasnt it IRCNet? |
| 14:54.10 | ksk | !irc.debian.org |
| 14:54.10 | dpkg | irc.debian.org moved to OFTC on June 4th 2006, see http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2006/05/msg00012.html. Operators and bots (see <fact sharing>) will remain on both networks for the foreseeable future; you're welcome to either move to OFTC with i.d.o or stay on freenode. Questions? Ask in #debian on one or other network. See also http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2006/04/msg00333.html |
| 14:54.27 | ksk | yetAnotherOwner: ^ |
| 14:54.28 | yetAnotherOwner | ive got a problem with apt-get and a very old debian version and requesting any help you are willing to give: |
| 14:54.42 | yetAnotherOwner | oh, moved server, thanks for the nfo |
| 14:54.43 | ksk | You can totally ask that in here. |
| 14:55.00 | yetAnotherOwner | but back to my apt-get issue: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/b639aebc/ |
| 14:55.03 | yetAnotherOwner | any idea |
| 14:55.04 | ksk | (imho this server is more active during EU TZ, but some people have different opinions on that) |
| 14:55.06 | yetAnotherOwner | thanks in advance |
| 14:55.40 | ksk | prefix all apt-commads ith "LANG=C" so it is not german :P |
| 14:55.42 | yetAnotherOwner | i know debian 7 is pritty ould and i will do some upgrade if i fix this first |
| 14:55.52 | yetAnotherOwner | one moment ksk youre right |
| 14:56.16 | yetAnotherOwner | all debian boxes i installed recently i do in US ENG but this one was one of my firsts. |
| 14:56.19 | ksk | Are you on Squeeze right now? Then you would also need to add the squeeze-archive sources.list |
| 14:57.00 | ksk | Never done that, but basicly: As soon as you manage to have the right sources.list, upgrading (From one release to the next) should also work with old(er) releases. |
| 14:57.02 | greycat | !squeeze sources.list |
| 14:57.02 | dpkg | A suitable /etc/apt/sources.list for Debian 6.0 "Squeeze" has two lines: "deb http://archive.debian.org/debian/ squeeze main" "deb http://archive.debian.org/debian/ squeeze-lts main". Put "Acquire::Check-Valid-Until false;" in /etc/apt/apt.conf and run «aptitude update». Also see <deb-src> <contrib> <non-free> <squeeze-lts> <squeeze-updates> and "man sources.list". |
| 14:57.14 | ksk | Oh, that was updated accordingly. Neat! |
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| 14:58.18 | yetAnotherOwner | https://paste.debian.net/hidden/1ffa0df7/ |
| 14:58.22 | yetAnotherOwner | there you are in english... |
| 14:58.23 | yetAnotherOwner | ksk |
| 14:59.03 | yetAnotherOwner | any idea how to get it to work? |
| 14:59.23 | yetAnotherOwner | maybe something wrong in my sources.list, i tryed to comment out anything i did before? |
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| 15:02.42 | yetAnotherOwner | ill ask at debian.net |
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| 15:03.17 | yetAnotherOwner | thanks so far, will stay up a couple houres if there is still someone willing to look into it thx in advance |
| 15:03.39 | unixbsd | Hello, in claws-mail, how to start it with directly addressbook only? |
| 15:04.36 | greycat | yetAnotherOwner: if you're supposed to be on squeeze, your python is from an outside or future repository, hence the problems. |
| 15:04.44 | yetAnotherOwner | what is the direcltly address book, ive used claws-mail a long time ago and found that the normal address book was sufficiant... |
| 15:05.06 | yetAnotherOwner | now i use roundcube and squirrelmail and that thing from nextcloud :) |
| 15:05.14 | greycat | on squeeze, python-dev is version 2.6.6-3+squeeze7 but yours is asking for python2.7-dev (>= 2.7.3-1~) |
| 15:05.22 | unixbsd | yeah, how to display only this addressbook only, without showing claws-mail emails...? |
| 15:05.32 | yetAnotherOwner | greycat so i should uninstall it and install it back again? |
| 15:05.47 | yetAnotherOwner | or enable back something in the sources, so do you know from which is it? |
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| 15:05.57 | yetAnotherOwner | is it backport or forign and if what exactly |
| 15:06.05 | greycat | Ideally you avoid getting into a broken state in the FIRST place. Are you on squeeze? Or not? |
| 15:06.10 | yetAnotherOwner | otherwiese ill test everything befor removing it and risking braking sth |
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| 15:06.35 | yetAnotherOwner | yea i know now but as i mentioned before it was one of my first systems that i messed ub pritty mouch |
| 15:07.16 | yetAnotherOwner | first i used xammp, then i switched to apache2 and no i only want to get some cert-bot installed without upgrading the system to antother version and braking more then i can fix in one day... |
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| 15:07.58 | yetAnotherOwner | i know xampp and old debian versions on production systems are not a good idea |
| 15:08.14 | yetAnotherOwner | if i only could remember the reason for installing python on the first place |
| 15:08.23 | greycat | on wheezy, python-dev depends on "python (= 2.7.3-4+deb7u1), python2.7-dev (>= 2.7.3-1~)" |
| 15:08.33 | yetAnotherOwner | ive got php, nodejs, this other thing but running local and noty system wide |
| 15:08.37 | greycat | are you in a state where you're halfway upgraded from squeeze to wheezy? |
| 15:08.50 | yetAnotherOwner | so i should enable wheezy back from the soruces.list |
| 15:08.58 | yetAnotherOwner | yea i tryed to update once |
| 15:09.06 | yetAnotherOwner | you mean upgraded from 7 to 8 |
| 15:09.20 | yetAnotherOwner | i am getting confused with all that codenames i dont familiaryze |
| 15:09.21 | greycat | No, I mean from 6 to 7. |
| 15:09.29 | ksk | yetAnotherOwner: the grey cat spawned that faqtoid for you. You also did not answer my "are you on Squeeze?" Question (since you seem to be missing archive/squeeze sources.list lines..) |
| 15:09.29 | yetAnotherOwner | ive got a broken name mamory in my brain |
| 15:09.31 | yetAnotherOwner | omg |
| 15:09.36 | yetAnotherOwner | to 7.. |
| 15:09.40 | ksk | oh, wall of text, nevermind me. |
| 15:09.49 | greycat | you appear to be stuck halfway between 6 and 7 |
| 15:10.06 | yetAnotherOwner | so you want to tell me my system is infact not 7 at all but something between 6 or 7 |
| 15:10.24 | yetAnotherOwner | o k which kind of an idiot i have bin on theese days |
| 15:10.36 | yetAnotherOwner | but i guess that gives me anough to fix it, let me try... |
| 15:10.41 | yetAnotherOwner | thanks alot so farr |
| 15:10.44 | yetAnotherOwner | *faar |
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| 15:11.07 | greycat | it would have helped if you had actually *run* the cat /etc/debian_version command and shown its output, instead of canceling it... |
| 15:11.20 | yetAnotherOwner | i run it |
| 15:11.26 | no_gravity | Is debian by default installing systemd-resolved and puts 127.0.0.53 into /etc/resolv.conf? |
| 15:11.27 | greycat | E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages. |
| 15:11.27 | greycat | root@xxxxxx:~/dist-upgrade2020-11# cat /etc/debian_version ^C |
| 15:11.27 | greycat | root@xxxxxx:~/dist-upgrade2020-11# root@xxxxxx:~/dist-upgrade2020-11# |
| 15:11.32 | yetAnotherOwner | i just canceled a ctrl+r afterwards |
| 15:11.33 | yetAnotherOwner | or not |
| 15:11.39 | yetAnotherOwner | grr, sry |
| 15:12.04 | yetAnotherOwner | but it cant be taht i had any chanche to cancel a simple cat on the local file system can it |
| 15:12.14 | yetAnotherOwner | i guess something got mixed up through screenlog |
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| 15:12.30 | yetAnotherOwner | root@xxxxxx:~/dist-upgrade2020-11# cat /etc/debian_version |
| 15:12.30 | yetAnotherOwner | 7.11 |
| 15:12.38 | yetAnotherOwner | see at my next paste with englisch lang |
| 15:13.02 | yetAnotherOwner | but lookes like there ive forgotten the lsb_release -a |
| 15:13.05 | greycat | OK. That's one data point. Now, check your locally installed versions of python, python2.6 and python2.7 |
| 15:13.25 | yetAnotherOwner | is there some good debian self check software you would recomand |
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| 15:13.38 | greycat | No. There is not. Figure out what you have done, and fix it |
| 15:13.53 | yetAnotherOwner | like checking all package versions and pointing out from which debian/backports or forign repo they originate |
| 15:13.57 | greycat | No. |
| 15:14.21 | greycat | Debian does not store that information. |
| 15:14.48 | yetAnotherOwner | thats the problem, the system is more then 10 years running now from its original debian 5 install, migrated throug a couple of different virtualisation laysers and im still not allowed to switch it of cause of anoying reasons |
| 15:15.18 | greycat | Just check your versions of python, python2.6 and python2.7 |
| 15:15.26 | ratrace | actually it does, but in a other-way-around kinda way. you list packages listed under /var/lib/lists and correlate with installed ones (or the other way around) |
| 15:15.34 | yetAnotherOwner | yea i mean some tool that dose some low level dpkg stuff and then pulling the info into a database and chekcing what the state of the system may |
| 15:15.39 | ratrace | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:16.19 | greycat | Debian doesn't store where a package was INSTALLED from. The best you can hope for is that you have lists of a current repository, and then you can compare currently-installed versions of packages against that list, and can see which ones could be reinstalled at same version from that list, and which cannot. |
| 15:16.22 | yetAnotherOwner | sorry i am again to fast |
| 15:16.26 | yetAnotherOwner | so debian 6 was... |
| 15:16.43 | yetAnotherOwner | let me gock. |
| 15:16.55 | yetAnotherOwner | squeeze |
| 15:16.55 | ratrace | greycat: right, that's the more precise way of what I wanted to say |
| 15:16.59 | yetAnotherOwner | and 7 is wheezy |
| 15:17.24 | yetAnotherOwner | so i guess the best way would be to do a snapshot and just try upgrading to squeeze and then to wheezy |
| 15:17.31 | yetAnotherOwner | so i dont have to unistall all brokens |
| 15:17.34 | yetAnotherOwner | or am i wrong |
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| 15:17.41 | greycat | : dpkg -l python python2.6 python2.7 |
| 15:18.26 | yetAnotherOwner | what do i have to do instead of `dpkg --get-selection |
| 15:18.26 | yetAnotherOwner | ` |
| 15:18.40 | yetAnotherOwner | to get the version installed listed so i can look them up? |
| 15:18.57 | greycat | (shutupbot) dpkg -l python python2.6 python2.7 |
| 15:19.31 | yetAnotherOwner | sry |
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| 15:20.12 | yetAnotherOwner | https://paste.debian.net/1173984/ |
| 15:20.43 | yetAnotherOwner | oh its even 32-bit |
| 15:20.56 | yetAnotherOwner | when was that day the unixtime buffer will brake with 32bit software? |
| 15:21.09 | greycat | OK, those all look like the wheezy versions. If you've got wheeze sources then you should be able to install python-dev. |
| 15:21.22 | greycat | wheezy* |
| 15:21.38 | jelly | 2038 |
| 15:22.00 | greycat | !wheezy sources.list |
| 15:22.01 | dpkg | Debian 7 "wheezy" is archived. A suitable /etc/apt/sources.list for wheezy has one line: «deb http://archive.debian.org/debian wheezy main». Be sure to run «apt-get update». Also see <deb-src> <contrib> <non-free> <mirrors> <apt-spy> and «man sources.list». |
| 15:22.09 | jelly | yetAnotherOwner: squeeze and wheezy are both on a) on archive.debian.org b) will require some creative options to install stuff from there, gpg keys and signatures expired |
| 15:22.20 | jelly | !valid-until |
| 15:22.20 | dpkg | it has been said that valid-until is apt-get/aptitude -o Acquire::Check-Valid-Until=false and/or see https://ftp-master.debian.org/#validuntil |
| 15:22.24 | yetAnotherOwner | one moment plz |
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| 15:22.44 | jelly | if you go for squeeze, ^ this won't be enough. If you go for wheezy it MIGHT ME |
| 15:22.49 | jelly | MIGHT BE* |
| 15:23.04 | L0aD1nG | hello guys |
| 15:23.33 | jelly | last time I wanted to install stuff from squeeze but still verify the repo, I had to set the clock back |
| 15:23.42 | jelly | (run apt under faketime) |
| 15:23.57 | yetAnotherOwner | https://paste.debian.net/hidden/02f96b1a/ |
| 15:24.02 | yetAnotherOwner | so thats what i did now, any ideas? |
| 15:24.03 | greycat | The wheezy archive doesn't need it, as far as I know. Then again, I can't actually test it any more. |
| 15:24.03 | L0aD1nG | i am installing debian on an old netbook, and it complains for EFI partition. What should i do with EFI partition?? |
| 15:24.48 | yetAnotherOwner | greycat, ratrace , i should have everything i had commented out in sources.list |
| 15:24.53 | greycat | Why are you trying to REMOVE anything? Add the wheezy line, apt-get update |
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| 15:24.59 | yetAnotherOwner | i normally dont remove any information if i can comment it out |
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| 15:25.22 | yetAnotherOwner | i am trying to work around the downtime ;) |
| 15:25.23 | greycat | If you suspect you've still got squeeze packages installed, then keep the squeeze lines as well as the wheezy line. They won't hurt. |
| 15:25.33 | greycat | But your python packages appear to be wheezy ones. |
| 15:27.15 | yetAnotherOwner | forgott :wg |
| 15:27.15 | yetAnotherOwner | grrr |
| 15:27.47 | yetAnotherOwner | E: Release file for http://archive.debian.org/debian-security/dists/wheezy/updates/Release is expired (invalid since 593d 0h 25min 32s). Updates for this repository will not be applied. |
| 15:27.48 | yetAnotherOwner | ... |
| 15:28.45 | yetAnotherOwner | 404 |
| 15:28.50 | yetAnotherOwner | and o another 404 |
| 15:28.56 | yetAnotherOwner | E: Some index files failed to download. They have been ignored, or old ones used instead. |
| 15:29.29 | greycat | Oh, fun. I guess the wiki and the bot need to be updated. Too bad I can't use http sources any more so I can't test these things. |
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| 15:30.33 | yetAnotherOwner | https://paste.debian.net/plainh/f5c083a0 |
| 15:30.40 | yetAnotherOwner | so still no progress ;) |
| 15:30.44 | yetAnotherOwner | *;( |
| 15:31.11 | greycat | Use jelly's suggestion, or the wiki's suggestion from the DebianSqueeze page. |
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| 15:31.31 | yetAnotherOwner | is on us layout now but has to much used DE layout so ) gets confused with ( cause they are moved one step to the right on us in comp to de keyb |
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| 15:36.02 | yetAnotherOwner | gets disturbed... |
| 15:36.02 | L0aD1nG | can someone help me? |
| 15:36.03 | yetAnotherOwner | sry |
| 15:36.23 | dob1 | I don't understand what's wrong: udo mount -t cifs //ip/share /mountpoint -o domain=WORKGROUP,username=user,password=pass,uid=1000,gid=1000 |
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| 15:36.30 | dob1 | *sudo |
| 15:36.52 | dob1 | it gives me invalid argument |
| 15:36.55 | yetAnotherOwner | dob1, have you tried to use a fuse based smb mount client? |
| 15:37.32 | yetAnotherOwner | using this kernel based cifs client ist outdated and insecure and requieres that the server supports old cifs, modern systems only supports smb3 |
| 15:37.41 | yetAnotherOwner | afaik |
| 15:37.41 | dob1 | yetAnotherOwner, well I tried and this is why I am trying this one. because (I don't know why) it gives problems with permission on archive like 7z/zip when I decompress them |
| 15:37.44 | yetAnotherOwner | only |
| 15:38.21 | yetAnotherOwner | are you able to access this share using the samba client cli or some gvfs or graphical kde tool ? |
| 15:38.30 | yetAnotherOwner | so you can firefy its not on servers/networks end? |
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| 15:39.11 | dob1 | yetAnotherOwner, It works good but not the archives. I am using graphical file manager |
| 15:39.42 | yetAnotherOwner | to follow the best practice guide burned into my brain let me first ask you some questions: |
| 15:39.56 | yetAnotherOwner | is the system used by more then one user? |
| 15:40.02 | yetAnotherOwner | (physical not logical) |
| 15:40.34 | yetAnotherOwner | do you plan to access the mountpoint by more then one user (including root and your main user) |
| 15:40.51 | yetAnotherOwner | (depending on this you need maybe another fuse configuration) |
| 15:40.54 | yetAnotherOwner | secoundly: |
| 15:41.05 | yetAnotherOwner | what is the server you want to mount |
| 15:41.14 | dob1 | another debian |
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| 15:41.20 | yetAnotherOwner | 3.: is it part of a domain/AD or just local accounts |
| 15:41.52 | yetAnotherOwner | 4: do you need auto mount on boot/auto reconnect on connection loss or is it as stable so that you can enter credentials manually |
| 15:41.59 | yetAnotherOwner | thats it so far... |
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| 15:42.07 | dob1 | yetAnotherOwner, my problem is only on archives :) |
| 15:42.08 | yetAnotherOwner | and of cause what debian version are you running ;)_ |
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| 15:42.19 | yetAnotherOwner | archives? |
| 15:42.22 | dob1 | yes |
| 15:42.27 | dob1 | 7z, zip whatever |
| 15:42.53 | yetAnotherOwner | are you using kde or gnome |
| 15:42.55 | dob1 | it's something related to permission when I decompress them in the share directory |
| 15:43.01 | dob1 | gnome |
| 15:43.17 | yetAnotherOwner | maybe you only need to give your user the requiered packages/rights and everything will work automaticly at next login... |
| 15:43.19 | dob1 | yetAnotherOwner, but sorry I can't give you more information right now. I have just shell access at this moment |
| 15:43.34 | yetAnotherOwner | so i would install gvfs and add your user to the fuser group |
| 15:43.40 | yetAnotherOwner | and then logoff and log back in |
| 15:44.15 | yetAnotherOwner | then everytime you access smb:// adresses from nautilus it will be mounted automaticly and your archiver can accecc it, and vlc dose not have to do its own smb clients |
| 15:44.30 | yetAnotherOwner | infact all appliacations can access smb without supporting it by its own ;) |
| 15:44.35 | yetAnotherOwner | gvfs ftw!!!! |
| 15:45.33 | yetAnotherOwner | further reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GVfs https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=https://wiki.ubuntuusers.de/gvfs-mount/ |
| 15:45.47 | dob1 | I have a 7z, testing the archive gives me no errors, moving it on a directory in my home dir, decompressing it gives me no error so the archive is ok. the problem is when I 7z x the archive in the shared folder. it fails for sure for permission problems, it creates some files. unzip fails with a lot of warning like: "on chmod (file attributes) error: operation not supported" |
| 15:46.01 | yetAnotherOwner | gvfs-fuse is the important package |
| 15:46.33 | yetAnotherOwner | you are running the 7z always on the same user and context? |
| 15:46.41 | dob1 | yes |
| 15:46.44 | yetAnotherOwner | then gvfs-fuse is what you problably want! |
| 15:47.26 | yetAnotherOwner | its not default installed on desktop debian for security/portability reasons but imho should be |
| 15:47.39 | yetAnotherOwner | https://packages.debian.org/buster/gvfs-fuse |
| 15:47.50 | yetAnotherOwner | this explains waht it dose |
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| 15:49.11 | dob1 | yetAnotherOwner, I have to try, thanks for the infos |
| 15:49.17 | yetAnotherOwner | d-bus is that inter process communication thingy all modern graphical unix based operating system incorparates for the software communicating with the grafical framework (eg. nautilus the gnome file manager with gvfs that gnome component allowing you to access remote shares as if they wouild be local) |
| 15:49.32 | yetAnotherOwner | yea, just install, relog and youll see everything works better |
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| 15:49.56 | dob1 | the fact is, that it works, but not compressed archives. this is strange |
| 15:50.01 | yetAnotherOwner | if you type in mount after accessing a smb:// share you will see it gets automaticly mounted to /var/run/somethin/username/gvfs |
| 15:50.02 | yetAnotherOwner | or so |
| 15:50.07 | dob1 | I tried giving an umask before running 7z x but nothing |
| 15:50.25 | dob1 | yetAnotherOwner, I know it works in this way |
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| 15:50.47 | yetAnotherOwner | then just link that something/gvfs to ~/.gvfs and you have the good old feeling and can easyli work on it from your bash or any graphical programm that starts browsing in your home dir |
| 15:50.56 | yetAnotherOwner | ln -s |
| 15:51.00 | yetAnotherOwner | you know ;) |
| 15:53.40 | dob1 | anyway I don't have a fuse group |
| 15:54.27 | sorcerer | has anyone experienced and solved a problem in kde plasma, in SSDM themes, when you download them through KDE and attempt to use them, they dont work. i get "module qtquick.controls version 2.5 is not installed"... anyone know how to fix this or what package i can find that in? |
| 15:55.15 | dob1 | why I don't have a fuse group? |
| 15:55.23 | dob1 | it's not created by default? |
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| 15:56.38 | greycat | probably created by packages that use it, maybe sshfs or something similar |
| 15:56.59 | greycat | if that's even still a thing... |
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| 15:57.21 | dob1 | I have sshfs installed |
| 15:58.04 | ksk | It does not seem to exist anymore - judging from my machine over here. |
| 15:58.59 | dob1 | someome people suggests to create it. but it makes sense? |
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| 15:59.32 | greycat | maybe it's not used by sshfs any more |
| 15:59.34 | dob1 | it it's not read by applications if user is in this group it's useless |
| 15:59.51 | ksk | dob1: check /dev/fuse - it is 666 - so no, I dont think you should create a (more or less) random group called "fuse" :P |
| 16:00.15 | dob1 | it's 666 so anyway can write on it |
| 16:00.17 | dob1 | *anyone |
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| 16:00.45 | greycat | /dev/fuse is 666 on buster, and 660 root:fuse on wheezy |
| 16:01.18 | dob1 | on wheezy you still have the group ? even if 6 on groups ? |
| 16:01.21 | greycat | and 666 on jessie (8) so I guess that's when it changed |
| 16:01.38 | dob1 | ah no right. it' needs the group |
| 16:01.51 | greycat | needed |
| 16:02.06 | dob1 | yes, right |
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| 16:20.29 | dob1 | so I have this gvfsd-fuse on /run/user/1000/gvfs type fuse.gvfsd-fuse (rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,user_id=1000,group_id=1000) why it has to give me permissions problems when I uncompress some 7z/zip file in it? |
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| 16:21.18 | greycat | Your earlier error message said that chmod was failing. So you can simplify your testing -- just create a file in the problematic directory, and try to chmod it and see what happens. |
| 16:22.31 | dob1 | greycat, you right, the error is there, Operation not supported |
| 16:22.55 | dob1 | it creates the file 777 by default |
| 16:23.32 | dob1 | and I can't change it, could it be a samba server (the share is running on a samba server not windows one) the issue? |
| 16:23.43 | jelly | dob1: fuse-based filesystems can have reduced capabilities compared to posix permissions, or sometimes it doesn't make sense to expose them. In addition, they restrict what non-owner user can do, even root |
| 16:24.48 | dob1 | jelly, ok, what can I do ? my idea was to try to mount it using cifs but It was told me it's not a good idea |
| 16:24.50 | greycat | If the actual underlying file system is on a Windows machine, then yeah, you don't have functioning Unix perms. |
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| 16:25.39 | jelly | dob1: ignore the issue |
| 16:25.58 | jelly | unless you actually need proper permissions |
| 16:26.47 | dob1 | jelly, the fact is that when I decompress an archive I get a general error so the doubt will be, it's related to permissions (so I can ignore it) or it's an archive error? |
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| 16:28.01 | jelly | such is life when using fuse |
| 16:28.33 | dob1 | jelly, in practice, if cifs is not used anymore what remains to mount samba share? just fuse? |
| 16:29.01 | jelly | I did not even know there was a fuse-based driver for smb/cifs shares until now. |
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| 16:29.10 | yetAnotherOwner | im back, are you still trying to get fuse to work? |
| 16:29.22 | jelly | if you have a cifs share... why not use cifs to mount it? |
| 16:30.07 | yetAnotherOwner | cause kernel mode driver provides less portability (imagine switching to OpenBSD or if you really ont macOS) |
| 16:30.17 | greycat | *blink* |
| 16:30.17 | dob1 | jelly, well I don't know, can I play with permissions with it? |
| 16:30.24 | yetAnotherOwner | or maybe youve got a vserver that dose not support it but support fuse |
| 16:30.28 | yetAnotherOwner | (most do) |
| 16:30.56 | greycat | oh, person B is making up reasons why person A might have made a choice |
| 16:31.14 | yetAnotherOwner | or just for security reasons, all kernel level network client code should be gone for good since cpus are fast enough to do some context switches between user and ring0 mode |
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| 16:31.40 | yetAnotherOwner | of cause kernel mode drivers are more fast but also less flexibil and if youve got one bit wrong all your system is compromised |
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| 16:32.36 | yetAnotherOwner | so if you use kernal for more then doing basic tcp/ip stuff (higer then osi level 3) you are doing sth wron imho cause of every code that fiddles with data send from the network and thereby can not be trustet shouldnt run as root or even worst kernel mode ;) |
| 16:33.35 | yetAnotherOwner | of cause if youve got old hardware and your whole network is problably monitored firewalled and updated you can do so to get your hardware to do a bit more and spare a few coins but its the wrong end cause it enflicts your security imho |
| 16:34.26 | dob1 | I cannot play with umask to avoid the warning/error? |
| 16:35.37 | dob1 | no it makes no sense |
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| 16:57.34 | absinthe | Hello. I'm trying to use a preseed file for installation, which mostly works fine, except for the static IP and the hostname which aren't defined as expected. If someone could take a quick look at my preseed file it'd be greatly appreciated: http://sprunge.us/Aa0hcV (relevant parts on top) |
| 16:59.09 | yetAnotherOwner | just do tar to copy compleded installations to target system |
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| 16:59.47 | yetAnotherOwner | or lern to use cp bash and debootstrap |
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| 17:00.12 | yetAnotherOwner | https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=https://linuxwiki.de/tar |
| 17:00.22 | yetAnotherOwner | here good example how to dublicate whole system |
| 17:00.43 | yetAnotherOwner | at the and just set hostname reset ssh keys and write network card compics acording to: |
| 17:01.29 | ratrace | ogawd, stahp! |
| 17:01.35 | yetAnotherOwner | https://wiki.debian.org/NetworkConfiguration |
| 17:01.54 | yetAnotherOwner | if you do the /etc/network/interfaces, right everything will be working i guess |
| 17:02.02 | yetAnotherOwner | or what exactly is your goal absinthe |
| 17:02.46 | yetAnotherOwner | what is that d-i in your file ratrace |
| 17:02.51 | yetAnotherOwner | i dont know this syntax... |
| 17:03.02 | absinthe | to define a static IP and a defined hostname using preseed files |
| 17:03.44 | yetAnotherOwner | i can only find command di: Description: advanced df like disk information utility |
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| 17:04.02 | yetAnotherOwner | so i dont know what that d-i command is, care to explain or give a hint |
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| 17:09.18 | absinthe | there's that page, yetAnotherOwner: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/Preseed |
| 17:09.33 | yetAnotherOwner | ah thanks |
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| 17:09.55 | yetAnotherOwner | so d-i ist a component of debian installer? |
| 17:10.10 | shtrb | d-i is a short name for debian-installer |
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| 17:11.17 | yetAnotherOwner | debian installer is a nice thing, quite complex and bulky and as mighty that you never would understand it, but its based on debootstrap so i would suggest using debootstrap as base and write some .sh file around it |
| 17:11.32 | yetAnotherOwner | its mouch more flexible if you know how to script bash |
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| 17:11.58 | yetAnotherOwner | but ill look into it the other day, thanks for enlighting me |
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| 17:13.46 | yetAnotherOwner | /away |
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| 17:23.41 | scrul00se | absinthe: this is a shot in the dark (haven't used custom preseeding myself), but does it make any difference if the host & IP stuff comes after the netcfg/choose_interface line? |
| 17:25.01 | absinthe | scrul00se: it doesn't appear order matters, but i'll give it a shot |
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| 17:38.51 | absinthe | ok i guess i forgot to define a few options. just spotted two missing things |
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| 18:12.49 | topster | Hi, wanted to update jessie on my Mac (PowerPC 32 bit) but I noticed that the ppc32 arch was removed from the mirrors. Is there any mirror left providing that? |
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| 18:20.20 | towo` | topster, i don't know, if there is a (inofficial) mirror, but you can try that https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/debian-sid-remix-ppc32-ppc64.2221125/ |
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| 18:28.43 | n4dir | i just joined, but ran sid on a powerpc, can't say that much about it, but there is the IRC channel #debianppc It is rather silent |
| 18:29.02 | jmcnaught | Hello. Debian 10, UEFI, no SecureBoot. I want to move my /boot and /boot/efi from one drive to another. Do I just need to recreate the two filesystems, move the files over, update /etc/fstab, run update-initramfs -u and update-grub? Or am I missing steps? |
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| 18:31.42 | topster | towo: Thanks I will check that out |
| 18:32.02 | Brigo | !tias |
| 18:32.02 | dpkg | TIAS is "Try It And See". |
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| 18:32.40 | n4dir | topster: what was your question, if can can give a short version? |
| 18:33.29 | topster | n4dir: ppc32 support |
| 18:33.57 | n4dir | you plan to install it and didn't do it yet? |
| 18:35.05 | n4dir | last info i got, bit outdated, is that old-old-stable does work, and that sid works. I upgraded old-old-stable straight to sid, knowing that is just wrong, but you simply have not repos for between. iirc |
| 18:35.47 | n4dir | the mentioned IRC channel is fine, but as said you really need time, it is quite silent. |
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| 18:39.50 | topster | I noticed that oldoldstable doesnt contain the ppc directory - or i am to stupid. But I will check it out later. Maybe other mirrors will provide it. |
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| 18:41.36 | Brigo | topster, worse case scenario, snapshots.debian.org has it all :) |
| 18:42.35 | jmcnaught | https://www.debian.org/ports/powerpc/ |
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| 19:25.59 | Lope | I've been uninstalling packagekit and all of it's deps etc, lately. Seems like unnecessary bloat. What do you reckon? |
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| 19:33.58 | Lope | Any idea what this is? Have searched, can't find anything obvious: libvirtd End of file while reading data: Input/output error |
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| 19:45.42 | Lope | brb |
| 19:47.03 | Franciman | Hi |
| 19:47.04 | Franciman | https://paste.debian.net/1174034/ |
| 19:47.07 | Franciman | what is this log message? |
| 19:47.23 | Franciman | what does the thunderbolt have to do with something related to wifi? (I don't have an external dongle) |
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| 19:50.51 | towo` | Franciman, where, in your paste, you see anything wifi related in that thunderbold messages? |
| 19:51.14 | Franciman | eheheheheheh |
| 19:51.24 | Franciman | I know it because TX and RX are values related to wifi connection |
| 19:51.31 | towo` | no is not |
| 19:51.50 | Franciman | what can it be, then? |
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| 19:52.14 | towo` | TX and RX are standard terms for send and receive |
| 19:52.18 | Franciman | oh lol |
| 19:52.19 | Franciman | cool |
| 19:52.37 | ndegruchy | Franciman: looks like it's registering some interrupts to listen(?) at? |
| 19:53.00 | Franciman | honestly I have this wifi problem, here is the whole log: |
| 19:54.23 | greycat | "transmit" and "receive" to be more precise |
| 19:54.29 | Franciman | https://bpa.st/DLZQ |
| 19:54.40 | Franciman | I was trying to debug |
| 19:55.00 | Franciman | and it looked like it could be related, but heh, I guess I was wrong |
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| 19:57.29 | ndegruchy | ath10k_pci |
| 19:57.37 | Zombie | Is there a bugzilla I can request a new Package be added to Debian? |
| 19:57.37 | ndegruchy | Do you have the firmware installed? |
| 19:57.42 | Franciman | yes |
| 19:57.50 | Franciman | I do, I also tried to update to newer firmware |
| 19:57.55 | Brigo | Zombie, rfp |
| 19:57.57 | Brigo | !rfp |
| 19:57.57 | dpkg | Request For Package (RFP) is the way to ask for a piece of software to be included in Debian. See http://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp, the section on that page "Adding new entries with "reportbug"" is a good place to start. Technically, a RFP is a wishlist bug filed against "wnpp" with a title beginning "RFP: ", ask me about <wnpp>. The best way of getting software packaged is to do it yourself: ask me about <nmg>. |
| 19:58.26 | Brigo | Franciman, that looks like a driver, kernel or hardware malfunction. |
| 19:58.50 | Brigo | Franciman, well, driver is part of the kernel, usually. |
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| 19:59.08 | Franciman | Brigo, in fact, I guess it's on the driver side |
| 19:59.16 | ndegruchy | Franciman: at the end, it looks like you got a successful dhack, so you have a good network address. What seems to be the problem? |
| 19:59.25 | Brigo | Franciman, do you have lots of that? |
| 19:59.40 | Franciman | ndegruchy, that I had to shut down the pc |
| 19:59.42 | Franciman | because it froze |
| 19:59.43 | Franciman | lol |
| 19:59.48 | Brigo | ndegruchy, it doesn't last, i guess. |
| 20:00.05 | Franciman | Brigo, yes, every day, at least 3-4 times |
| 20:00.33 | ndegruchy | if it froze, you might try enabling the sysrq key for safely rebooting, see if it's really locked up. Could be a hardware issue, though. |
| 20:02.32 | Franciman | with ubuntu 18.04 it worked, and I used exactly the same firmware files |
| 20:02.36 | Franciman | so the problem must be in the drivers |
| 20:03.05 | Brigo | Franciman, what kernels are you using in debian and ubuntu? |
| 20:03.28 | Franciman | for ubuntu it was 4.15-oem :P |
| 20:03.35 | Franciman | it was ubuntu shipped with my dell xps 13 |
| 20:03.38 | Franciman | debian: 4.19 |
| 20:04.07 | Brigo | well, you can try to upgrade the kernel via backports ... |
| 20:04.13 | Franciman | I already tried |
| 20:04.25 | Franciman | I want to debug this problem |
| 20:04.30 | Franciman | and see where the damn code fails |
| 20:05.15 | Franciman | well, updating the kernel is still a good idea |
| 20:05.19 | Franciman | let me try |
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| 20:06.55 | Franciman | brb |
| 20:06.56 | Franciman | thanks ppl |
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| 20:24.34 | Rob_Jones | can anyone help me to install vsftpd please |
| 20:24.42 | Rob_Jones | getting this error when sudo apt-get install vsftpd |
| 20:24.54 | Rob_Jones | [vsftpd.conf:1] Line references path below legacy directory /var/run/, updating /var/run/vsftpd/empty â /run/vsftpd/empty; please update the tmpfiles.d/ drop-in file accordingly. |
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| 20:26.44 | jhutchins | Rob_Jones: Which release? Can you pastebin your sources.list and anything from sources.list.d? |
| 20:26.47 | jhutchins | !paste |
| 20:26.48 | dpkg | Do not paste more than 2 lines to this channel. Instead, use for text: https://paste.debian.net | pics/screenshots: https://imgbb.com/ or https://imgur.com/upload | large files up to 100MB (think tar.gz): https://filebin.net or https://wikisend.com | Remember to tell us the URL of your paste! Cannot cut and paste? Ask me about <pastebinit>, <nopaste>, <termbin>. |
| 20:26.57 | *** part/#debian RedSoxFan07 (~Thunderbi@d-137-103-117-100.ct.cpe.atlanticbb.net) |
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| 20:29.47 | Rob_Jones | https://kopy.io/2OSg7 |
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| 20:37.03 | sney | !ftp must die |
| 20:37.04 | dpkg | FTP MUST DIE! http://mywiki.wooledge.org/FtpMustDie . For authenticated file transfer, ask me about <sftp>. For unauthenticated download, HTTP: http://daniel.haxx.se/docs/ftp-vs-http.html . Debian ceased offering mirrors via FTP on 2017-11-01 https://www.debian.org/News/2017/20170425 |
| 20:38.27 | *** join/#debian xet7 (~xet7@85-156-126-139.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 20:39.14 | jhutchins | !linode |
| 20:39.23 | *** join/#debian fachinformatiker (~fachinfor@fsf/member/fachinformatiker) |
| 20:40.37 | ratrace | 'sright. say ! to linode |
| 20:41.37 | jhutchins | Rob_Jones: We've seen rumors that their images/packages are not entirely clean. You could try switchcing mirrors. |
| 20:42.04 | jhutchins | Rob_Jones: Although just guessing, it would be the image/initial install causing that problem. |
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| 20:44.17 | *** part/#debian mmj (~michael@185.34.14.0) |
| 20:44.50 | jhutchins | Rob_Jones: https://www.simplified.guide/ssh/copy-file |
| 20:45.14 | *** join/#debian mmj (~michael@185.34.14.0) |
| 20:45.21 | *** part/#debian mmj (~michael@185.34.14.0) |
| 20:45.30 | Rob_Jones | need a guide for setting up SFTP on debian :P |
| 20:46.21 | Druid | can u try sftp user@host |
| 20:46.26 | Druid | what error u get? |
| 20:46.34 | jhutchins | Rob_Jones: Generally Openssh doesn't need any special setup. |
| 20:46.53 | jhutchins | My guess is he's trying to set up a sort of open server. |
| 20:46.58 | Rob_Jones | oh it connects |
| 20:47.02 | Rob_Jones | no setup required? |
| 20:47.19 | jhutchins | Rob_Jones: Well, you have to generate a key. |
| 20:47.28 | Rob_Jones | i have a keyfile |
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| 20:48.19 | Rob_Jones | now final question |
| 20:48.28 | Rob_Jones | any idea why i can connect via an ip |
| 20:48.40 | Rob_Jones | but i cant to any domain name pointing at that ip |
| 20:49.02 | *** mode/#debian [+l 1187] by debhelper |
| 20:49.10 | *** join/#debian Newami (~Newami@ip70-179-45-125.sd.sd.cox.net) |
| 20:49.53 | jhutchins | Rob_Jones: What about other domains? |
| 20:50.02 | sney | Rob_Jones: how recently did you set up the dns records? the change may still be propagating |
| 20:50.08 | Rob_Jones | weeks ago |
| 20:50.16 | Rob_Jones | ill share the error message |
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| 20:53.52 | Rob_Jones | https://kopy.io/8vjcS |
| 20:55.11 | sney | Rob_Jones: are you using cloudflare or another caching dns provider? you might be hitting both the cache and the actual vm ip |
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| 20:55.22 | Rob_Jones | nope |
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| 20:55.34 | Rob_Jones | just my domain provider forwarding to linode |
| 20:56.07 | sney | alright, well, remove line 8 in known_hosts and see if it behaves |
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| 21:45.04 | mar77i | hmm. how did this work with making oom a bit more trigger-happy and not locking up my laptop whenever the browser ate all the resources? |
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| 21:47.37 | f8e4 | is there a simple paint for debian? |
| 21:47.40 | f8e4 | gpaint sucks |
| 21:47.44 | f8e4 | gimp too complex |
| 21:47.49 | f8e4 | open source |
| 21:48.06 | mtn | f8e4: https://alternativeto.net/platform/linux |
| 21:48.20 | mar77i | there's krita |
| 21:48.26 | mar77i | or mypaint. |
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| 21:54.52 | unixbsd | hi, does Debian work on AMD-k6 with 64 mb? |
| 21:55.15 | greycat | That's not enough RAM for the current releases. The last release that supports 64 MB is wheezy. |
| 21:55.31 | greycat | Even then you will NOT want to run any kind of X session at all. |
| 21:55.44 | unixbsd | yeah but there wont be security update on wheezy? |
| 21:55.49 | greycat | correct |
| 21:55.58 | unixbsd | just need console to type mostly. |
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| 21:56.19 | f8e4 | mtn ty, has anyone a paint like on debian? all the alternatives lsited are fancy, closed, etc.... |
| 21:56.36 | greycat | it should work extremely well for logging in on the console and editing files with vi or nano |
| 21:56.39 | unixbsd | f8e4: sudo apt-get install xpaint ; xpaint |
| 21:57.09 | unixbsd | so stable without x11, would work on amd-k6 64mb ram? (no x11) |
| 21:57.41 | greycat | No. |
| 21:57.57 | greycat | stable does not support 64 MB. that means it's not even guaranteed to INSTALL. |
| 21:58.13 | greycat | if it happens to work, you got lucky |
| 21:59.02 | *** mode/#debian [+l 1173] by debhelper |
| 21:59.29 | greycat | *wheezy* without x11 will work on the K6 with 64 MB |
| 22:00.27 | greycat | declare -x is exactly the same as export |
| 22:00.30 | greycat | ECHAN |
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| 22:01.17 | corey1 | Debian Pros: I am interested in learning a programming language as someone with no formal or other training in comp. sci. but good attention to detail and a love of human language learning. If I did not tell you anything else, what would you recommend that I learn to best help my interactions with Debian? |
| 22:01.18 | *** join/#debian dvs (~hibbard@cwv.teksavvy.com) |
| 22:03.47 | jhutchins | corey1: Bash is probably the most useful thnig to start with. Perl, Ruby, and Python are a bit new-user friendly. |
| 22:04.04 | corey1 | Oh, Bash. Sure. I was thinking of C, given its universality. |
| 22:04.25 | corey1 | jhutchins, what would you say to that? |
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| 22:04.44 | jhutchins | corey1: The various versions of C are what makes up most of the Linux binaries. Java/Tomcat do a lot of heavy work on web sites. |
| 22:05.07 | Druid | c is difficult but i am stupid |
| 22:05.15 | Druid | i can use python to make what i want most of the times |
| 22:05.28 | f8e4 | unixbsd nope |
| 22:05.37 | f8e4 | finally!: drawing |
| 22:05.39 | Druid | i dont need performance though |
| 22:05.43 | jhutchins | corey1: C has a lot of details and subtleties you have to learn to get much done, and it doesn't seem to teach good software design skills, although it rewards them. |
| 22:06.25 | corey1 | Oh, interesting. See, in #programming, they recommended C. But what do I know? Nothing. I want to learn something broadly usable for little tinkers, maybe even, say, writing a little WM some day. |
| 22:06.26 | jhutchins | corey1: It's also good to study books about good software design practice, and good project management. |
| 22:06.57 | jhutchins | corey1: I would definitely make C a goal, but a good foundation is important. |
| 22:07.56 | jhutchins | (Real Programmers write Assembler, but that's enven more convoluted than C. |
| 22:08.06 | corey1 | jhutchins, is there a trusted standby to build that foundation, like a 'This is What Programming Is' book to read before learning the language? |
| 22:08.16 | Druid | corey1: WM as in window manager? if so, C is what u want to learn |
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| 22:08.47 | jhutchins | corey1: Yes, there is, and I don't know it. I'm an admin, not a coder. All of my languages are decades obsolete. |
| 22:08.53 | greycat | I would never attempt to write my own window manager, geez. |
| 22:09.04 | corey1 | Druid: Precisely. I might also want to build a LibreOffice/OpenOffice extension. Stuff like that. Really contributing to FOSS with little doodads that I myself need as a professional scholar (academic Church historian). |
| 22:09.38 | dob1 | maybe you can contribute to an existing one |
| 22:09.44 | jhutchins | corey1: The problem with that is that 16:06 < corey1> Oh, interesting. See, in #programming, they recommended C. But what do I know? Nothing. I want to learn something |
| 22:09.51 | jhutchins | Gah. |
| 22:10.15 | corey1 | jhutchins: What do you mean? |
| 22:10.55 | jhutchins | corey1: If you tackle something like that without a good grounding in theory it's likely to not go well, and your finished project won't be useful to people. |
| 22:12.02 | jhutchins | I've known some pretty good progammers, and they all studied a lot of theory before they did any good, serious work. |
| 22:12.27 | corey1 | jhutchins: Understood. I like the 'contribute little things to existing projects' goal. IDK. I will see. It bothers me that I have no dispensable money to donate toward and no skills to give back to the FOSS projects that I use for 100% of my work. The best that I can do is file bug reports. |
| 22:12.35 | greycat | your concept of "little doodads" is staggeringly complex and difficult |
| 22:12.45 | greycat | You need to start WAY, way simpler. |
| 22:12.59 | scrul00se | corey1: As someone in a very similar position to yours, I have found Python very rewarding. It is (to my mind) less arcane and easier to read than Bash or C, and there are *many* nice libraries that make it easy to actually get things done without having to spend years learning the low-level guts of every underlying component |
| 22:13.20 | dob1 | what are doodads ? |
| 22:13.22 | jhutchins | Bug reports are important, and studying them and their solutions is a great way to learn. |
| 22:13.31 | greycat | python is a reasonable starting language, probably |
| 22:13.39 | jhutchins | dob1: Thingamajigs. |
| 22:14.06 | dvs | Whatchamacallits? |
| 22:14.26 | jhutchins | There are also tools to learn, like awk, sed, patch, diff, git. |
| 22:14.42 | corey1 | Well, thanks, everyone. I will keep exploring and then just dive into learning something. The problem is going to be that I truly have to start from scratch. My high school calculus has gone entirely unused since then. I look at code to comment things out, and...that's it. No idea what any of it means. Truly from scratch. |
| 22:15.01 | greycat | awk and sed are usually learned in conjunction with shell, because shell is crippled and useless in so many ways that it leans upon awk and sed to do a lot of its job for it |
| 22:15.39 | dob1 | I am not a good programmer but I suggest python too. it's simple, well documented, there are so many libraries around and on debian is supported very well |
| 22:15.42 | greycat | You *could* learn C as a first language; it would not be the worst choice. But it's not the easiest. |
| 22:16.26 | dob1 | what would be the worst choice ? :) |
| 22:16.41 | greycat | BASIC, PHP, or anything object oriented |
| 22:16.56 | leibniz | Buster > arch |
| 22:17.13 | leibniz | the best first language is python |
| 22:17.36 | leibniz | hence it being taught at any universities introductory computer science courses |
| 22:17.44 | leibniz | i mean |
| 22:18.05 | corey1 | Alright. Well, I shall explore more! Python it just might be. Hard to say. Maybe C. I probably would not look at anything else, frankly. I know that there are many, many programming languages, but I just want to learn 1 fairly 'well.' |
| 22:18.11 | leibniz | Almost every introductory cs couse in the world teaches python |
| 22:18.34 | leibniz | python is one of the most versatile languages anyway |
| 22:19.06 | unixbsd | C is mother of all operating systems |
| 22:19.10 | leibniz | Do no start with âcâ |
| 22:19.15 | leibniz | c# at least |
| 22:19.16 | dob1 | javascript ? well at least is one of the most used, but it's not so simple imho |
| 22:19.24 | unixbsd | Do start with C. this is best bet. |
| 22:19.40 | unixbsd | C# is windows junk. |
| 22:19.53 | leibniz | Python then c or cpp or c# |
| 22:20.12 | corey1 | See! No agreement. I am attracted to C. But I can tell you that I have no desire at all to learn Web or Object-based language. I want to interact with local system stuff. Local software. |
| 22:20.13 | leibniz | no c#9 is ok also .net 5 |
| 22:20.48 | jhutchins | I would recommend avoiding PHP. I used to think it just allowed bad practices, but I have learned that it actually requires bad programming. |
| 22:20.48 | unixbsd | Pascal and C, then you can do junks. apt-get install fpc gcc make |
| 22:20.58 | leibniz | Do not listen to this guy lol |
| 22:21.04 | leibniz | hes crazy man |
| 22:21.17 | leibniz | Python then c# |
| 22:21.35 | leibniz | Then Java then JavaScript |
| 22:21.37 | dvs | !start a language war |
| 22:21.37 | dpkg | FORTRAN is faster than Ruby |
| 22:21.42 | unixbsd | Python is ugly and unlikely to get enjoyable stay. C is power for many years. |
| 22:21.56 | leibniz | ?? |
| 22:22.01 | leibniz | c is ugly |
| 22:22.14 | jhutchins | unixbsd: That's what they said about Cobol. |
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| 22:22.20 | leibniz | Ok wel nm |
| 22:22.29 | leibniz | python > c |
| 22:22.34 | dob1 | !start a language war |
| 22:22.34 | dpkg | csh is more efficient than Ruby |
| 22:22.39 | leibniz | final answer |
| 22:22.50 | Druid | !timeout |
| 22:22.53 | sney | corey1: the "learn python the hard way" online course assumes you don't already know how to program. I took it a few years ago and it helped me, I'd recommend it |
| 22:23.08 | leibniz | M2 ^ |
| 22:23.11 | Druid | ^ i recommend that |
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| 22:23.56 | sney | (and the same site has a C course with already knowing 1 language as a pre-requisite) |
| 22:24.06 | jhutchins | I've done chunks of LPTHW and it's very good, very well done. |
| 22:24.14 | unixbsd | jhutchins: I remember Cobol. It was impressive at that time. I cant remember on which hardware still. |
| 22:24.17 | dob1 | what is LPTHW ? |
| 22:24.30 | sney | learn python the hard way |
| 22:24.49 | corey1 | Oh, I like that. Learn Python the Hard Way. I'll look into it. Anything comparable for C? |
| 22:24.50 | jhutchins | unixbsd: IBM or DEC. |
| 22:25.46 | dob1 | sney, it's a book? |
| 22:25.50 | jhutchins | corey1: Note that they requre that you alredy know another language for the C course. They, too, feel like you need to form good habits before you jump in. |
| 22:26.11 | Druid | corey1: the C programming language after you learn the basics |
| 22:26.24 | Druid | The C Programming Language by Ritchie |
| 22:26.53 | sney | dob1: I guess there's a book version now. I just read it on the website when I did it. https://learnpythonthehardway.org/python3/ |
| 22:27.10 | corey1 | Thank you, thank you, everyone :) |
| 22:27.51 | jhutchins | We now return you to Debian Tecchnical Support. |
| 22:29.54 | corey1 | jhutchins: Well, I did ask the initial question specifically with regard to interaction with Debian. I love Debian. Debian and FreeBSD are my 2 favorite OSes on the planet. There are many. I love most FOSS. But Debian is probably my #1. I want to interact with it better. |
| 22:32.00 | jhutchins | It was a good discussion, and I think you got some good answers. One thing I'd add: besides books, read good scripts and read good code. |
| 22:33.25 | corey1 | Indeed. If I go with Python, literally the 1st thing that I'll do is 'read' QTile, and same for C and dwm + spectrwm. Why? I want to understand how it 'works' in things that I use and know how to find. |
| 22:34.04 | leibniz | IMO c# is more of a practical language |
| 22:34.22 | leibniz | employability wise |
| 22:35.15 | leibniz | You can use visual studio and download both the python and c libraries I believe |
| 22:35.20 | leibniz | and try them both |
| 22:35.27 | leibniz | learn them concurrent |
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| 22:36.04 | lnxslck | can someone on testing confirm what is /bin/sh ? |
| 22:36.44 | leibniz | What do you think? |
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| 22:36.49 | leibniz | yea I can tell you |
| 22:36.52 | corey1 | Thanks again. Well, I do like all this stuff. Good day, folks. |
| 22:36.59 | leibniz | yw dude |
| 22:37.06 | leibniz | Come back soon |
| 22:37.14 | leibniz | Debian is incredible |
| 22:37.24 | leibniz | linux > * |
| 22:37.36 | sney | lnxslck: it's dash |
| 22:37.52 | lnxslck | sney: can you output it here? the full path? |
| 22:38.10 | lnxslck | or does it simply point to dash? like: /bin/sh -> dash* ? |
| 22:38.19 | sney | lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 4 Nov 12 00:58 /bin/sh -> dash |
| 22:38.27 | lnxslck | thank you sney |
| 22:38.30 | sney | np |
| 22:38.34 | leibniz | what command did that |
| 22:38.40 | lnxslck | I broke it, then I had to re-do that link |
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| 22:38.51 | lnxslck | so I didnt knew if it was the correct |
| 22:39.16 | Druid | @laptop:~$ ls -al /bin/sh |
| 22:39.16 | Druid | lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 4 Sep 22 2019 /bin/sh -> dash |
| 22:39.40 | Druid | im on ubuntu thought but it should be same |
| 22:39.59 | unixbsd | judd: ah, maybe IBM. I remember a bit this machine, how it looked. nice time. it was early time of programming, today we have big industry. fast and crappy softs, slow as ever. luckily we have opensource to make soft better. |
| 22:40.01 | sney | same command, at any rate |
| 22:40.12 | sney | !dash |
| 22:40.12 | dpkg | dash (formerly Debian Almquist shell) is a <POSIX> compliant shell, smaller than <bash> and offers faster script execution (decreasing boot time). dash is the default /bin/sh since the Debian 6.0 "Squeeze" release. To check if your existing scripts will work with dash, use checkbashisms from <devscripts> and see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DashAsBinSh |
| 22:40.22 | unixbsd | corey1: I recommend netbsd, it works well as well on all archs. |
| 22:40.47 | dnull | Even on Toasters. |
| 22:41.09 | lnxslck | I have been having dash hold back because it has some weird bugs, and today I just thought: screw it, let me remove it |
| 22:41.21 | lnxslck | didnt remember it was dash the default not bash |
| 22:43.37 | unixbsd | osh compiles out of the box, for fun. |
| 22:43.42 | jhutchins | leibniz: Like several of us said, I think C goes much better if you learn good programming habits first. |
| 22:44.59 | unixbsd | best if FPC, old pascal won't kill. |
| 22:45.31 | jhutchins | leibniz: I agree that C is very powerful and very employable. (Good java coding is also very employable.) |
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| 22:46.57 | jhutchins | PHP is a good example that it's possible to do a lot of things wrong and badly and still get usable output. |
| 22:47.31 | unixbsd | looks an example of SDL game in Just C: you cant beat C: http://openbsdtai123.scienceontheweb.net/sdl (sdl game with no libs, in C). |
| 22:48.32 | corey1 | Oh, I like that C is employable. That's a huge plus for it. Yes, I am already in a career, and yes, I want to do this for hobby, but a career switch has always been on the back of my mind, esp. one that involves GNU/Linux or BSD. |
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| 22:50.01 | corey1 | Getting paid to use Debian. I mean, come on. That's every boy's dream. |
| 22:50.39 | leibniz | Lol |
| 22:50.47 | leibniz | True |
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| 23:02.01 | lnxslck | lol |
| 23:02.14 | lnxslck | how do you get paid to use Debian? |
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| 23:06.35 | sney | usually IT operations of some sort |
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| 23:10.32 | abrotman | That was my job years ago |
| 23:10.47 | abrotman | Small company, everything that could be was Debian |
| 23:11.50 | teclo- | yeah a company where almost everything is on Debian GNU/Linux |
| 23:11.54 | teclo- | did that too |
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| 23:13.41 | teclo- | corey1: well, the best language to start learning programming is Pascal. The Pascal language was created to teach people structured programming |
| 23:13.53 | greycat | Pbbbbt. |
| 23:14.28 | greycat | Esperanto was "created" to be a universal language for humans, but that doesn't make it the best one to communicate with humans. |
| 23:14.54 | teclo- | evening greycat :) |
| 23:15.11 | teclo- | greycat: well Pascal is the best language to teach people programming |
| 23:15.19 | teclo- | I mean, as a first language |
| 23:15.33 | greycat | A language that can't even open files by name? |
| 23:15.36 | teclo- | then later, one can learn C or C++ or Java or Python |
| 23:15.59 | greycat | Which means every implementation bolts on their own unique special-snowflake way to open files, incompatible with every other pascal... |
| 23:16.14 | teclo- | well file management in Pascal is indeed a problem, Niklaus Wirtz didn't make an effort on that |
| 23:16.29 | teclo- | greycat: well I was gonna say "It depends on th eim |
| 23:16.34 | teclo- | greycat: well I was gonna say "It depends on the implementation" |
| 23:16.48 | greycat | I'd say Tcl and Pascal are both excellent first languages, but people will yell if you suggest Tcl because it's not "popular" enough. |
| 23:17.12 | abrotman | teclo-: as someone who learned in Pascal, I would agree if it were 1990 .. Python is better at this point |
| 23:17.49 | abrotman | Pascal has some interesting features, but so does Ada .. Neither have much practical use today (Ada more than Pascal, but still ... ) |
| 23:17.56 | greycat | sorry, I mistyped there, badly. |
| 23:18.01 | greycat | I'd say Tcl and Python are both excellent first languages, but people will yell if you suggest Tcl because it's not "popular" enough. |
| 23:18.32 | jhutchins | I thought lisp was the one created to teach programming. |
| 23:18.37 | sney | if you're going to start on a language that isn't used by anything in the real world, you may as well shoot the moon and lock yourself in a room with SICP for a year |
| 23:18.48 | greycat | LISP is a little too academic |
| 23:18.53 | jhutchins | teclo-: They know a lot more about good programming practices than they did when pascal was developed. |
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| 23:19.42 | greycat | I wouldn't start with LISP, because teaching functional programming to an absolute beginner is ... weird. |
| 23:19.50 | abrotman | Snobol? RPG? :) |
| 23:20.00 | teclo- | jhutchins: that is correct |
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| 23:20.10 | teclo- | yeah |
| 23:20.15 | teclo- | why not PL/1 ? heh |
| 23:20.20 | abrotman | There are lots of beginner docs for Python, and it's a reasonably extensible language |
| 23:20.28 | greycat | Tcl and Python are both good, both are in use in the real world, both have an *imperative* syntax which is how people should start learning.... |
| 23:20.51 | jhutchins | abrotman: Ever done RPG? |
| 23:20.53 | teclo- | well it's better to start leaning an imperative language |
| 23:20.57 | teclo- | learning* |
| 23:21.13 | abrotman | jhutchins: yes, sadly |
| 23:21.21 | teclo- | and when you know 2 ou 3 inmperative languages, then you can learn functional programming |
| 23:21.23 | greycat | Pascal isn't the worst choice, to be sure. |
| 23:21.34 | abrotman | jhutchins: RPG IV. XEDIT is the most infuriating editor I've ever used |
| 23:21.49 | abrotman | might still have a book around here somewhere |
| 23:21.50 | jhutchins | abrotman: You know it's a software abstraction of the programming patch boards for card sorting machines? |
| 23:22.04 | abrotman | yeah :( |
| 23:22.38 | jhutchins | I thougt it was fun, but all I had to do was pass the course. |
| 23:23.09 | abrotman | It was okay, but the professor had issues, and the entire fixed-position nonsense was insane |
| 23:23.49 | jhutchins | It was a lot closer to hardware programming than the rest of the stuff I learned. |
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| 23:24.09 | abrotman | I got to do x86 and SPARC Assembler |
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| 23:24.57 | teclo- | yaeh COBOL has that feature too |
| 23:24.59 | jhutchins | I did IBM 360 family assembler. "I can't means I don't know enough assembler." |
| 23:25.13 | teclo- | you need to start writing your code at columns 9 |
| 23:25.37 | greycat | COBOL was my second language. Very, very long ago. |
| 23:25.44 | teclo- | because the first 8 columns are reserved for... numbering the punch cards |
| 23:25.51 | jhutchins | Hint: Don't skip the sequence number field on the punch card for that extra byte of space. You'll be sorry. |
| 23:26.06 | greycat | column 8 was the Comment indicator column, I think |
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| 23:27.41 | abrotman | I thought it was 7 for comment I believe, code started in 8 ? |
| 23:27.59 | abrotman | well, asterisk in col 7 |
| 23:28.34 | greycat | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COBOL#Code_format |
| 23:28.40 | jhutchins | Don't make me go upstairs and get the book... |
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| 23:29.06 | greycat | I'll take wikipedia's word for it. |
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| 23:29.43 | jhutchins | Good enough. |
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| 23:40.12 | H-var | will debian become faster in any way, if I switch to the testing update channel? |
| 23:40.20 | H-var | I have a 2008 PC |
| 23:40.33 | n4dir | no |
| 23:40.35 | sponix | H-var: nope |
| 23:40.48 | H-var | H-var: Yes |
| 23:41.05 | H-var | thanks, H-var. Thats' all I needed to know. |
| 23:41.21 | H-var | np |
| 23:41.25 | sney | depends on what programs you're using, sometimes newer versions have efficiency improvements. but mostly it will be just as fast as stable |
| 23:41.33 | n4dir | without any proof it *seems* to me that systemd isn't outstanding ressource friendly. 2008 should (?) be able to handle it though, i think |
| 23:41.43 | H-var | libreoffice, thunderbird, firefox. Nothing else |
| 23:42.08 | n4dir | so all the hogs. |
| 23:42.14 | H-var | lol yes |
| 23:43.02 | n4dir | i guess you did check if abiword and claws-mail work any better ? web-browsers are not really with an alternative, if you want the web as is |
| 23:43.17 | n4dir | i use falkon, and it is slightly ! less ressource intensive, it seems |
| 23:43.22 | H-var | but I have to say the laptop is flying, man, even when I have all of them opened simultaneously, 4GB ram, 1.4GHz Celeron |
| 23:43.23 | sponix | in general software tends to just get heavier over time. so I think going to a newer software channel with the expectation of a software speed-up isn't very realistic |
| 23:43.51 | H-var | my ram rarely shows anything close to 40%, and swap is literally never ever touched |
| 23:44.29 | n4dir | get yourself a Pentium 4. Or like that. Big fun. |
| 23:44.38 | greycat | With a 12-year-old PC, upgrading to a newer release runs the risk of losing video chipset support, in some cases. |
| 23:44.44 | H-var | on the other hand, lol, windows 10 was constantly crashing due to ram, and on windows 7 I couldn't open more than 1 tab on firefox, and everything else had to be closed |
| 23:44.54 | H-var | otherwise, firefox would crash all the time |
| 23:45.10 | greycat | Or maybe 12 years isn't quite old enough to have to worry about that, I dunno. |
| 23:45.39 | H-var | I tried sylpheed but the problem I have with it is that its spam filter sucks |
| 23:45.42 | n4dir | i sure had more than one mashine that old or way older. But most of them had intel graphics. That said i didn't run in any problems |
| 23:46.03 | H-var | firefox's anti-spam is amazing, and super precise |
| 23:46.09 | H-var | sorry thunderbird's |
| 23:46.14 | n4dir | probably i simply got used to lousy graphics :-) |
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| 23:47.38 | H-var | 2008 laptop, testing channel, and everything works perfectly fine here :) |
| 23:48.16 | H-var | fujitsu |
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| 23:59.22 | H-var | thunderbird is really the best on windows indeed, but on linux there are some major issues with it, even the most basic stuff, like the lack of translation packs, or weird bugs which existed since 2015 (I googled), like for example a bug that makes you send a letter twice, even though you sent it only once, etc |