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| 05:13.09 | *** topic/#debian is Current Debian release is buster, 10.6 point release /msg dpkg 10.6; /msg dpkg buster; /msg dpkg stretch->buster; /msg dpkg apt suite changed | Stretch has limited LTS support: /msg dpkg stretch-lts ; /msg dpkg 9.13 | NO FLOOD: /msg dpkg paste | offtopic: #debian-offtopic | testing/unstable: #debian-next @ irc.oftc.net | chanlogs: /msg dpkg irclog |
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| 05:17.35 | pagetelegram | I will explore the federated p2p route to see if that has an answer. Though limited to reach and a lot of it is prejudged even I prejudge the onions as being a toxic place. |
| 05:18.38 | pagetelegram | I few friends pointed me in that direction as a general solution against information being taking down. |
| 05:18.42 | mtlsw | pagetelegram, what do you think about the new ms-edge-dev chromium-based browser released a few days ago? can that be trusted? lol |
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| 05:20.16 | pagetelegram | I have a hard time keeping up on anything; and I use chrome not knowing all it's faults. I am busy in too many things. This happens when I', in process of moving to a new apartment. Staying up just tonight so I can converse with 1984 folk |
| 05:21.58 | genr8_ | even if its safe now, its a trojan horse by being complacent to allow microsoft to infiltrate linux with its compromising tendrils |
| 05:22.10 | mtlsw | pagetelegram, the announcement was made several months ago, it is making on linux news sites |
| 05:22.27 | mtlsw | pagetelegram, some people worry it may have privacy-invasion telemetry |
| 05:22.40 | pagetelegram | nice try... ); as the old IBM OS/2 adage Up and Running, not Up and Coming.... |
| 05:22.59 | pagetelegram | not good |
| 05:23.10 | pagetelegram | I always have bashed SM |
| 05:23.11 | pagetelegram | MS |
| 05:23.35 | genr8_ | no good can come from it. just say no. |
| 05:24.12 | pagetelegram | I use Windows for my Adobe needs only. If Adobe moves to Linux I can so easily kiss Windows goodbye for good. |
| 05:24.43 | Azrael_- | ever tried adobe with wine? |
| 05:24.44 | genr8_ | i wouldnt hold your breath |
| 05:25.21 | pagetelegram | Az----never stable. And I use several of their products that are not supported by wine.... |
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| 05:25.46 | Azrael_- | k |
| 05:25.52 | genr8_ | yea thats not viable either |
| 05:26.27 | Azrael_- | thought the api of wine was already that "complete" and flexible to support basically everything and wouldn't need specific modifications for every program |
| 05:26.39 | genr8_ | adobe knows full well what they're doing is keeping people locked into windows, and likely the only thing stopping many people from switching. these corporations stick together |
| 05:27.16 | pagetelegram | Adobe Premiere access to CODAs etc I don't think is supported. idk haven't tested stuff with Winehq since about 5 years. |
| 05:27.35 | genr8_ | Wine is a win32 api only. |
| 05:27.44 | Azrael_- | i have no real experience, i'm just curious about it |
| 05:27.56 | pagetelegram | That's a door slam |
| 05:28.38 | pagetelegram | If it's anywhere near the maturity of ReactOS I won't consider it. Good for Notepad and maybe Wordpad :P |
| 05:28.56 | genr8_ | Notepad++ works too :) |
| 05:29.24 | pagetelegram | haha only adobe notepad++ and universal extractor is all I got installed on the system |
| 05:30.39 | pagetelegram | Geany is good for me on linux tho |
| 05:31.09 | pagetelegram | Adobe and BBMe would be my only demands to bring to Linux. |
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| 05:34.42 | genr8_ | This is why Adobe will never allow it. https://www.adobe.com/enterprise/microsoft-partnership.html |
| 05:35.44 | pagetelegram | They still port to OS/X/Darwin? |
| 05:35.50 | mtlsw | flash is supposed to end in support this year |
| 05:35.57 | pagetelegram | That is good news ^ |
| 05:36.07 | pagetelegram | The next update will be an uninstaller. |
| 05:36.08 | mtlsw | its old news, it's just taken a few years to come to this point lol |
| 05:36.12 | mtlsw | hahaha |
| 05:36.22 | genr8_ | at some point, Microsoft was even contemplating buying Adobe outright for 138-260 billion dollars. https://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2019/09/23/microsoft-can-acquire-adobe-provided-it-doesnt-balk-at-260-billion-price-tag/ |
| 05:36.46 | alex11 | it may strictly be good from a security standpoint but unless there's a functional replacement so much of the early web will be lost in losing flash |
| 05:36.53 | mtlsw | https://www.adobe.com/ca/products/flashplayer/end-of-life.html --- December 31st, 2020 |
| 05:37.05 | mtlsw | old news, knew about it back then. |
| 05:37.15 | mtlsw | since you guys bring up "Adobe". |
| 05:37.17 | mtlsw | :) |
| 05:37.20 | pagetelegram | html5 and gif reborn :) |
| 05:37.36 | genr8_ | RIP newgrounds |
| 05:38.30 | genr8_ | oh apparently they planned for this and invented a "NewGrounds Player" native windows app. https://www.newgrounds.com/flash/player |
| 05:41.27 | pagetelegram | I doubt they be flash diehards keeping this dead horse alive for too long. It's not worth it....I am just happy to see this means no more flash ads eating up system resources. |
| 05:42.19 | alex11 | yeah now we just have electron |
| 05:42.20 | alex11 | much better |
| 05:42.40 | genr8_ | dies in javascript |
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| 06:30.33 | markuman | Hi. I got an EC2 instance with debian buster. It says, that all packages are up to date. it installed python 3.7.3-1. but in a docker file of debian buster, it installs 3.7.3-2 |
| 06:30.48 | markuman | what do I need to do to get it on the ec2 instance? |
| 06:31.13 | markuman | I already copied the apt source.list from docker buster into the instance. after apt update, nothing changed |
| 06:31.16 | markuman | any ideas? |
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| 06:45.21 | themill | markuman: neither of those look like python package versions. What's the exact package name and version? |
| 06:46.09 | markuman | themill: Pre-Depends: python3-minimal (= 3.7.3-1) |
| 06:46.16 | markuman | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:46.16 | dpkg | You Fool! python3 is installed! |
| 06:46.54 | markuman | when I install python3-minimal, it fetches 3.7.3-2+deb10u2 |
| 06:47.10 | markuman | but it's set still that the version is 3.7.3-1 |
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| 06:47.21 | themill | "it"? |
| 06:47.49 | markuman | it == dpkg or apt list python3, you name it |
| 06:47.58 | themill | The version of python3-minimal that is buster is 3.7.3-1 |
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| 06:48.58 | markuman | themill: https://packages.debian.org/buster/python3.7-minimal |
| 06:49.03 | markuman | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:49.20 | markuman | https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/CVE-2020-8492 3.7.3-1 is vulnerable |
| 06:49.34 | themill | python3.7-minimal â python3-minimal. |
| 06:50.06 | markuman | python3.7-minimal is already the newest version (3.7.3-2+deb10u2). |
| 06:50.14 | themill | so what's the problem? |
| 06:50.59 | markuman | that the aws inspector detect python 3.7.3-1, which is vulnerable. but according to https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/CVE-2020-8492 it is fixed with 3.7.3-2, which is installed |
| 06:51.47 | themill | as I said, python3.7-minimal â python3-minimal. python3.7-minimal is the package that is vulnerable to the CVE and you've upgraded it |
| 06:52.18 | jelly | markuman: could that aws inspector thing be buggy and checking the wrong package |
| 06:52.34 | markuman | jelly: I guess yes |
| 06:53.18 | markuman | hmm we got buisness support. I will create an issue |
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| 07:08.12 | alex11 | this is probably a malformed question but can i 'switch to' uefi post install? |
| 07:10.15 | alex11 | i guess not |
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| 07:10.21 | alex11 | you have to decide that in the partioning stage |
| 07:10.24 | alex11 | partitioning* |
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| 07:12.24 | jelly | alex11: if the disk is already formatted GPT, and you have enough space to make an efi boot partition if missing, it ought to be doable |
| 07:12.53 | alex11 | is there a way to check what it's formatted as? |
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| 07:17.38 | genr8_ | yes |
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| 07:22.01 | jmcnaught | alex11: 'udisksctl info --block-device /dev/sda | grep Type |
| 07:22.05 | jmcnaught | ' |
| 07:22.30 | jmcnaught | or "sudo fdisk -l /dev/sda" substitute sda for the actual device |
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| 07:23.48 | alex11 | "dos" |
| 07:23.50 | alex11 | oh well |
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| 07:33.07 | genr8_ | its still possible |
| 07:33.31 | genr8_ | i did it. |
| 07:33.36 | genr8_ | https://serverfault.com/questions/963178/how-do-i-convert-my-linux-disk-from-mbr-to-gpt-with-uefi |
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| 09:16.09 | shtrb | If I connect with ssh -X user@remote , and remote have wayland should I still be able to see the application locally over my X ? |
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| 09:25.18 | taman | shtrb, I'd expect so, yes. Provided "the application" is an X program, not wayland only. |
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| 09:26.30 | iamjfk11 | Quoting Wayland FAQIs Wayland network transparent / does it support remote rendering? |
| 09:26.30 | iamjfk11 | No, that is outside the scope of Wayland. To support remote rendering you need to define a rendering API, which is something I've been very careful to avoid doing. The reason Wayland is so simple and feasible at all is that I'm sidestepping this big task and pushing it to the clients. It's an interesting challenge, a very big task and it's hard to get right, but essentially orthogonal to what Wayland tries to achieve. |
| 09:26.30 | iamjfk11 | This doesn't mean that remote rendering won't be possible with Wayland, it just means that you will have to put a remote rendering server on top of Wayland. One such server could be the X.org server, but other options include an RDP server, a VNC server or somebody could even invent their own new remote rendering model. Which is a feature when you think about it; layering X.org on top of Wayland has very little overhead, but |
| 09:26.30 | iamjfk11 | <PROTECTED> |
| 09:26.30 | iamjfk11 | <PROTECTED> |
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| 09:27.41 | ratrace | you could've just, you know, _linked_ to the faq.... |
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| 09:30.18 | shtrb | thanks |
| 09:30.38 | shtrb | thanks taman iamjfk11 |
| 09:31.37 | iamjfk11 | that was what I wanted to do, but I pasted the text ..... sry |
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| 09:59.48 | Lope | hey guys, I've got 2 PC's running linux kernel 5.8. Connected on a LAN via 1GbE full duplex. Ethtool shows both are 1000Mbps full duplex. Both PC's use a bridge on their ethernet interface. Previously speeds were good. I've recently changed my network setup a bit. I renamed interfaces with udev and used network-manager to create the bridges instead of /etc/network/interfaces. Now for some weird reason with iperf UDP I get 104MiB/s in one direction, but |
| 09:59.48 | Lope | 2MiB/s in the other direction!!! Any ideas what could be wrong? |
| 10:01.06 | Lope | I'm going to fire up a 3rd PC and test against that to see which of these 2 has the problem. |
| 10:02.22 | shtrb | Lope, bad cable (when one or more wires are corrupted) could do so |
| 10:03.22 | Lope | shtrb, did you see how I said previously speeds were good? |
| 10:03.25 | Lope | can't be a bad cable |
| 10:03.32 | Lope | I've changed my software setup |
| 10:03.59 | shtrb | \_()_/ |
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| 10:19.56 | Lope | I've isolated to which PC is struggling to send. |
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| 10:23.12 | Lope | my network-manager configs are identical between the 2 of the PC's same kernel, same debian, same everything. Only different realtek chipset :/ |
| 10:23.23 | Lope | Good old realtek. |
| 10:23.30 | ratrace | firmware? |
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| 10:27.28 | ratrace | Lope: btw... "renamed interfaces with udev" ... to what end? |
| 10:27.53 | Lope | ratrace, so I can know which ethernet port is which |
| 10:28.03 | Lope | instead of enp4s14 or whatever |
| 10:28.22 | Lope | It's like onboard_eth0 or whatever |
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| 10:28.49 | Lope | same reason I rename VM's nic's |
| 10:29.06 | Lope | so I don't have to go on a detective hunt to figure out which eth I'm looking at |
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| 10:42.44 | queip | damn debian bamboozled me |
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| 10:43.03 | queip | akonadi-backend-mysql is uninstalled, and yet still akonadi uses mysql backend |
| 10:43.31 | queip | wtf? |
| 10:46.30 | Lope | so on the PC that was struggling to send data out of it's realcrap, I mean realtek chipset after I changed from /etc/network/interfaces to network-manager. Even stopping network-manager, deleting the bridge and using the eth directly, I still could only send at 2MiB/s with iperf. So I disabled network-manager, blacklisted the eth interface in NetworkManager.conf and got the bridge configured again in /etc/network/interfaces. rebooted. I re-tested and now |
| 10:46.31 | Lope | the PC can send at 114MiB/s again. So weird. Network-Manager broke the realcrap. |
| 10:50.13 | Lope | Interestingly my laptop also has a realcrap chipset, but it has *different* issues. network-manager works fine with my laptop's eth. However last time I ran the laptop as a server (2 years ago), it's eth goes down after like 2 weeks and the only way to bring it back is power cycling it. The fix for that interestingly was hard locking it to 1000Mbps full duplex (disable auto negotiation) and that fixed it. Realcrap |
| 10:51.50 | ratrace | Lope: 1) why are you even using NM for all that? 2) btw, you don't need udev rules to change iface name, you can do it with NM, interfaces, networkd, ... |
| 10:52.05 | Lope | geez. I just had a *SIMPLE* idea to rename some network interfaces and change some IP's and ports and whatever, and add a few extra bridges etc. It's taken me a full 1.5 days to get everything done and working properly. Insane. |
| 10:52.07 | ratrace | Lope: 3) are you missing firmware for the nic? |
| 10:52.29 | Lope | ratrace, I thought udev was the recommended way to do it? |
| 10:52.33 | ratrace | Lope: that's called Yak Shaving. Wellcome to the world of Yak Shavers :) |
| 10:52.54 | ratrace | Lope: "recommended"? neither yes or no, it's just one way. |
| 10:52.57 | Lope | ratrace, I've got the r8168-dkms firmware package 8.048.03-1~bpo10+1 |
| 10:53.23 | Lope | ratrace, yak shaving? hahahah not familiar with that. |
| 10:53.33 | ratrace | Lope: I have no idea what that package does. but you can check if the kernel wants firmware and is missing it, dmesg | grep -i firmware |
| 10:54.39 | ratrace | Lope: yak shaving is when you take a seemingly simple task and then you realize you ALSO have to do tasks B and C ..... and then B.1 and B.2 and C.1 and then B.2.1, and etc.... down the rabit hole of "oh, shi! this too!" |
| 10:54.40 | Lope | ratrace, just a spectre notice and ACPI: [Firmware Bug]: BIOS _OSI(Linux) query ignored |
| 10:54.59 | ratrace | Lope: then the kernel isn't missing firmware files |
| 10:55.10 | Lope | haha yeah. yak shaving. What a lot of fun. |
| 10:55.30 | Lope | Now I'm starting to (just barely) understand why people are scared of changing their setup when it's "working" |
| 10:55.39 | ratrace | some also call that "System Administration". I guess the Yak's name is "System" :) |
| 10:55.44 | Lope | They shout with much fear and desperation to not change "It's working!!!" |
| 10:55.57 | iamjfk11 | queip "dpkg -l akonadi*" |
| 10:56.00 | Lope | with subtext "(don't ask me to change anything)" |
| 10:56.08 | ratrace | Lope: now do that with remote server and _nothing_ but an ssh connection |
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| 10:56.31 | Lope | ratrace, yeah, I'm scared as shit of changing things about the network or initramfs etc remotely. |
| 10:56.35 | ratrace | Lope: well barely nothing, if you can't reconnect, you can ask the hostnig company to provide you with keyboard-video-mouse in a few hours :) |
| 10:56.55 | Lope | I generally setup a local system that's identical to it and test on that before messing with the remote. |
| 10:57.05 | queip | iamjfk11: akonadiconsole 4:18.08.3-1 amd64 ; rc akonadi-backend-mysql ; ii akonadi-backend-postgresql ; un akonadi-backend-sqlite and yet akonadi uses mysql right now, even though uninstalled, wtf? |
| 10:57.05 | Lope | One mistake and it's gone. |
| 10:57.24 | Lope | ratrace, yeah, that's loads of fun. |
| 10:57.45 | Lope | Then you have to hope your old notes of what the 100 character FDE key is, is right for that server. |
| 10:58.01 | Lope | it's so fun typing 100 pseudorandom shit manually into a POS terminal. |
| 10:58.01 | iamjfk11 | dpkg -l mysql-* |
| 10:58.01 | dpkg | No packages found matching mysql-* |
| 10:58.12 | Lope | and then it says "incorrect" hahahaha |
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| 10:58.30 | fling | Why is my iceweasel got replaced by firefox? |
| 10:58.36 | fling | Should not it be icecat instead? |
| 10:59.36 | ratrace | ff replaced iceweasel long time ago |
| 11:00.05 | ratrace | iceweasel was just ff with different name due to license. everything else is the same as with ff now (ie. the patches and changes that forced FF to be renamed in debian) |
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| 11:18.56 | queip | it still starts /usr/sbin/mysqld --defaults-file=/home/MYUSER/.local/share/akonadi/mysql.conf ... |
| 11:20.07 | iamjfk11 | akonadictl status |
| 11:20.12 | queip | one would assume removing akonadi-backend-mysql and installing akonadi-backend-postgresql would do that automatically |
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| 11:20.53 | queip | Akonadi Control: running ; Akonadi Server: running ; Akonadi Server Search Support: available (Remote Search, Akonadi Search Plugin) |
| 11:20.55 | queip | Available Agent Types: akonadi_akonotes_resource, [...] |
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| 11:23.28 | shtrb | queip, didn't we talk about already ? |
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| 11:25.04 | iamjfk11 | akonadictl have some bug with mysql |
| 11:25.14 | shtrb | bug number ? |
| 11:25.29 | queip | shtrb: kmail still isn't working |
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| 11:26.14 | iamjfk11 | https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/akonadi/+bug/1876398 |
| 11:26.58 | queip | what is the debian way to switch to akonadi-postgresql? |
| 11:32.40 | shtrb | queip, you can modify the rc file |
| 11:32.47 | shtrb | *to start a different one |
| 11:32.56 | shtrb | and please ask that in #akonadi / #kde too |
| 11:34.12 | shtrb | queip, I got lot's of help in #akonadi in the past when I had bugs related to it |
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| 12:30.01 | epitamizor | is there way to copy last output from stdout? |
| 12:33.16 | hmuller | epitamizor: are you working in a console or gui terminal |
| 12:33.22 | jelly | what do you mean by "last output from stdout", each process has its own stdout |
| 12:34.02 | epitamizor | on the console, really long process starts, and sent output to stdout, but i need to copy that now |
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| 12:34.55 | jelly | short answer, once it's started you can't |
| 12:35.15 | epitamizor | not even from memory buffer? |
| 12:35.28 | jelly | what memory buffer? |
| 12:35.37 | hmuller | what you want to do next time is: <command> [options] 2>&1 | tee command.log |
| 12:35.56 | jelly | set up logging in advance. You might use redirection, or pipe to "tee", or run under screen or tmux with logging |
| 12:35.57 | epitamizor | that is going to take a long time again then |
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| 12:36.55 | jelly | kernel has a tiny bit of scroll buffer, that goes away when you switch to a different vt and bacnk |
| 12:37.27 | hmuller | epitamizor: if you can't select all the lines you need in the terminal/terminal multiplexer, then you will have to use something similar to what I posted above |
| 12:37.37 | jelly | epitamizor: if what you need is still completely on screen, you can use "gpm" to copy it and paste elsewhere |
| 12:38.09 | jelly | but again, you need gpm installed and running already to have mouse support on console |
| 12:38.55 | jelly | epitamizor: if your program is meant to run forever as a service, consider writing a systemd service for it instead, and let systemd log the output |
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| 12:42.12 | epitamizor | no other way to screenshot from console? |
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| 12:45.26 | queip | epitamizor: there are few programs, search it |
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| 12:51.39 | impermanence | sorry I haven't used debian in forever: if I'm updating and I want to avoid a manual `-y` do I need to sudo apt-get update -y? |
| 12:52.32 | impermanence | seems like not |
| 12:52.34 | nkuttler | impermanence: you probably mean upgrade, not update? |
| 12:52.41 | impermanence | ha |
| 12:52.45 | impermanence | I guess I do |
| 12:52.50 | impermanence | well... |
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| 12:52.58 | impermanence | how do I patch all packages on a debian system? |
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| 12:53.03 | impermanence | that's the question! |
| 12:53.11 | nkuttler | patch? |
| 12:53.22 | impermanence | "bring all packages to current version" |
| 12:53.29 | impermanence | whatever you want to call it :) |
| 12:53.38 | impermanence | install latest |
| 12:53.43 | nkuttler | impermanence: are you upgrading from an older release? |
| 12:53.48 | impermanence | no |
| 12:53.49 | LCRERGO | Hi, what is the difference between a normal kernel image and a cloud one? |
| 12:54.00 | nkuttler | impermanence: apt-get upgrade |
| 12:54.07 | iamjfk11 | apt-get update & apt-get |
| 12:54.17 | impermanence | and it doesn't need `-y`? |
| 12:54.33 | iamjfk11 | sry |
| 12:54.36 | nkuttler | impermanence: depends on which behavior you want. man apt-get if in doubt |
| 12:54.54 | iamjfk11 | apt-get update & apt-get upgrade -y |
| 12:55.10 | impermanence | iamjfk11: thanks! |
| 12:55.16 | impermanence | && |
| 12:55.23 | impermanence | but I know what you mean |
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| 12:57.02 | epitamizor | is there way to take screenshot of framebuffer? I tried fbgrab but either the image is blank or it never dumps output |
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| 12:59.25 | iamjfk11 | epitamizor .... https://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/how-to-save-terminal-output-to-a-file-under-linux-unix/ |
| 13:00.18 | iamjfk11 | command > filename.txt |
| 13:00.23 | iamjfk11 | stdout to a file |
| 13:00.40 | iamjfk11 | command >1 |
| 13:00.45 | iamjfk11 | stdout to display |
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| 13:07.03 | ratrace | the BadAdviceCyberciti strikes again..... |
| 13:07.12 | ratrace | epitamizor: use script(1) |
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| 13:08.12 | epitamizor | oh nm setterm is what i was loooking for |
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| 13:21.13 | queip | <lurchi_> Then use something with does not confuse stable with stale .. |
| 13:21.16 | queip | he does have a point |
| 13:22.17 | greycat | !stable |
| 13:22.17 | dpkg | [stable] The status of a Debian release when no packages will be added or version-bumped, and changes will only fix security issues and critical bugs. Packages can be removed in rare circumstances. The current stable version of Debian is Buster (10.x); ask me about <releases>. Security bugs are fixed in stable by backporting the fix to the stable version (ask me about <security backports>). https://wiki.debian.org/DebianStable |
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| 13:30.13 | queip | it seems we reached a point where open source is destined to fail |
| 13:30.22 | queip | debian guys will keep saying to ask upstream |
| 13:30.36 | queip | upstream will keep replying to use not-outdated software |
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| 13:31.58 | queip | <lurchi_> nobody here will fix the 3 year old stuff debian is distributing. Make sure it is reproducible with a current version, and then write a bug report |
| 13:32.26 | CrystalMath | so backport that one package |
| 13:32.41 | CrystalMath | the point of debian stable is that MOST old packages are actually better |
| 13:32.50 | CrystalMath | on rare occasions, this is not the case |
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| 13:34.48 | CrystalMath | and how does that at all relate with open source failing? |
| 13:35.07 | queip | CrystalMath: using open source, I can't get any actually good email client |
| 13:35.35 | CrystalMath | mutt |
| 13:35.38 | CrystalMath | alpine |
| 13:35.50 | CrystalMath | so many to choose from |
| 13:35.55 | CrystalMath | heck, even mailx |
| 13:36.04 | queip | CrystalMath: uh, not text console |
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| 13:36.13 | hmuller | queip: open source works well. it just may not work the way _you_ want it to work |
| 13:36.47 | EdePopede | so you prefer entering text in something KDE instead of a terminal emulator. sounds legit. |
| 13:36.51 | queip | hmuller: to send and receive emails, gpg encrypted&signed, with attachments. kind of like outlook express did 20 years ago (minus the bugs etc) |
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| 13:37.03 | queip | EdePopede: doesn't have to be "KDE", but in GUI, yes |
| 13:37.35 | EdePopede | and what exactly is the advantage of having something GUI for text only handling? |
| 13:37.45 | queip | EdePopede: images in email |
| 13:37.54 | queip | easier copy&paste |
| 13:38.08 | EdePopede | c&p works fine with the mouse in the terminal |
| 13:38.15 | queip | different font size in list and in body |
| 13:38.16 | CrystalMath | or in screen :) |
| 13:38.29 | queip | EdePopede: not copying parts of user interface tho |
| 13:38.32 | CrystalMath | but i mean it's not like there's a shortage of mail clients |
| 13:38.41 | queip | CrystalMath: I know no reasonable one for linux |
| 13:38.44 | EdePopede | and you can start an image viewer from cli or ncurses |
| 13:38.51 | queip | EdePopede: too slow |
| 13:39.04 | CrystalMath | queip: well we clearly have diametrically opposing tastes |
| 13:39.12 | CrystalMath | queip: i want things to be as traditionally UNIX as possible |
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| 13:39.18 | queip | also normal users dislike text mode tools |
| 13:39.21 | CrystalMath | but you may look into like.... |
| 13:39.24 | CrystalMath | thunderbird |
| 13:39.27 | CrystalMath | is that an email client? |
| 13:39.30 | EdePopede | i tell you what' slow: waiting for C-s to finally happen in firefox to save an image or sth |
| 13:39.33 | queip | CrystalMath: yes, Debian broke it recently |
| 13:39.48 | queip | or rather, upstream broke it. they killed enigmail plugin. the built-in GPG support is subpar |
| 13:40.08 | CrystalMath | hmm, then backport the new version |
| 13:40.15 | EdePopede | file a bug report/feature request/whatever with upstream then |
| 13:40.30 | CrystalMath | EdePopede: i think they tried to do that with the old debian version |
| 13:40.30 | queip | CrystalMath: normal users can't backport. even me (working in IT) not rly |
| 13:40.43 | CrystalMath | ugh, millenials |
| 13:40.49 | queip | CrystalMath: hm? |
| 13:40.50 | CrystalMath | there's a guide on how to do this, even |
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| 13:41.05 | queip | new version of thunder broke it |
| 13:41.14 | queip | there is no new version of enigmail, it's dead |
| 13:41.28 | CrystalMath | oh, hmm |
| 13:41.37 | CrystalMath | so they probably won't fix it |
| 13:42.07 | hmuller | and there is always Windows XP if you can find it |
| 13:42.11 | CrystalMath | according to this, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigmail |
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| 13:42.40 | CrystalMath | they say you should just backport thunderbird |
| 13:42.42 | CrystalMath | and use the built-in support |
| 13:42.47 | queip | hmuller: why compare with windows even? it's just that debian fails in this area |
| 13:43.04 | queip | CrystalMath: yeah as I said, I tried the built-in support, it sucks |
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| 13:43.19 | EdePopede | so what email client does windows have which would be fine for you? |
| 13:43.27 | CrystalMath | well i agree with you, i don't think there can be a GUI client which doesn't suck |
| 13:43.30 | CrystalMath | maybe evolution? |
| 13:43.36 | queip | you need to import private pgp keys into thunderbird. no support for smartcard reads, for gpg config, for gpg WoT and trust list |
| 13:44.00 | queip | EdePopede: TheBat was fine |
| 13:44.06 | EdePopede | "was"? |
| 13:44.12 | hmuller | queip: that's your opinion. debian hasn't failed. you mentioned windows (20 years ago) and that would be WinXP |
| 13:44.16 | queip | not using windows much now, EdePopede |
| 13:44.21 | EdePopede | doesn't sound like something to be used in the future |
| 13:44.22 | EdePopede | ah |
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| 13:44.41 | CrystalMath | queip: in general, software has gotten very bad in the past 2 decades |
| 13:44.45 | queip | hmuller: well yeah it worked then on windowsXP. just saying, debian had a lost of time to catch up |
| 13:44.46 | CrystalMath | that's why it's best to use 90s stuff |
| 13:45.01 | CrystalMath | it's not just windows that went bad |
| 13:45.07 | queip | yeah debian too |
| 13:45.14 | queip | doing stupid things like systemd |
| 13:45.19 | queip | kde doing akonadi |
| 13:45.27 | CrystalMath | agreed, but 90s software is mostly terminal-based |
| 13:45.30 | queip | instead of polishing most basic use cases |
| 13:45.31 | CrystalMath | which is why i use that |
| 13:45.33 | hmuller | queip: you are under the impression that Debian develops email clients. It does not. It creates operating systems |
| 13:45.56 | queip | hmuller: well kmail devels claim their new version works. that is likelly correct |
| 13:46.21 | queip | 2 year release cycle precludes any meaningful collaboaration with upstream |
| 13:46.34 | queip | they will not work on bugs we see, and even if then we get fixes 2 years later |
| 13:46.56 | EdePopede | some bugs get fixed instantly, some 2 years later, some never. |
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| 13:47.02 | EdePopede | never been any different. |
| 13:47.12 | queip | that is very bad |
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| 13:48.30 | EdePopede | bugs may have dependencies |
| 13:48.47 | EdePopede | and if you fix a simple bug and fix something you even may break something else |
| 13:48.55 | Tenkawa | here's one way to look at it.. how have "you" contributed to fixing the problem? |
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| 13:49.30 | queip | Tenkawa: no I have not. why would I |
| 13:49.42 | queip | I can write an useless bug report that will not change anything, certainly not for 2 years |
| 13:49.48 | EdePopede | could satisfy your needs? |
| 13:50.11 | queip | even if miracle would happen and bug would be fixed, it will take 2 years to arrive back |
| 13:50.12 | Tenkawa | because a lot of these projects need input that people aren't always thoroughly providing accurately |
| 13:50.12 | EdePopede | bugs don't fix themselves |
| 13:50.24 | EdePopede | it needs developers to do it |
| 13:50.45 | Tenkawa | without the bug reports its "never" going to be fixed |
| 13:50.49 | queip | maybe debian should be more rolling |
| 13:51.04 | queip | maybe also upstreams should prepare stable branches and keep patching them per debian requests |
| 13:51.08 | EdePopede | and with software around something networking, if it's browser, irc client, or mail client, there's some relevant RFCs and maybe some other standards |
| 13:51.13 | EdePopede | no |
| 13:51.16 | EdePopede | !stable |
| 13:51.16 | dpkg | [stable] The status of a Debian release when no packages will be added or version-bumped, and changes will only fix security issues and critical bugs. Packages can be removed in rare circumstances. The current stable version of Debian is Buster (10.x); ask me about <releases>. Security bugs are fixed in stable by backporting the fix to the stable version (ask me about <security backports>). https://wiki.debian.org/DebianStable |
| 13:51.23 | Tenkawa | this is just pure software development definition |
| 13:51.23 | EdePopede | there are enough rolling distros |
| 13:51.34 | queip | EdePopede: not that much rolling |
| 13:51.41 | Tenkawa | you need to need to know the problems to fix them |
| 13:51.44 | queip | just fixing bugs that really make stuff sucks |
| 13:51.44 | EdePopede | there's still LFS |
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| 13:51.59 | EdePopede | grap tarballs from upstream, build them as you need it. |
| 13:52.23 | queip | EdePopede: first of, it would be a dependancy hell, for such programs |
| 13:52.28 | EdePopede | and fix inconsistencies on your own |
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| 13:53.15 | EdePopede | one of the things distro maintainers are running into |
| 13:53.46 | EdePopede | <queip> maybe also upstreams should prepare stable branches and keep patching them per debian requests <--- debian and all the other distros? |
| 13:53.58 | EdePopede | what about redhat? |
| 13:54.18 | queip | btw, what is this god damn key to unlock keyring (probably from Gnome) in gpg pinentry |
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| 13:56.33 | queip | <CarlSchwan-M> We maintain a stable branch for Plasma and Debian is not even using it... |
| 13:57.12 | queip | maybe upstreams should try more to release LTS branches, and Debian should use them when ever possible, collaborate with their devels, and always backport into stable when there are *bugfixes* in LTS? |
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| 14:03.59 | ratrace | that's like the shibboleet of customer support... a wet dream :) |
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| 14:05.41 | jelly | queip: so you're volunteering to backport Qt5, plasma, and plasma apps into debian, whilst making sure no other Qt app breaks, that's what I'm hearing? |
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| 14:09.46 | EdePopede | maybe upstream needs more developers? |
| 14:11.13 | crane | if i install the meta package "linux-image-amd64" from backports. shouldn't the meta package "linux-headers-amd64" also resolve to backports? |
| 14:11.44 | crane | or do i also have to point explicit to backports here? |
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| 14:28.58 | EdePopede | they both depend on a single specific versioned package each. which in turn have just a handful deps. |
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| 14:32.33 | jhutchins | crane: They're independent packages becauses sometimes people build for different kernels than the one they're running. |
| 14:32.43 | jhutchins | crane: Also, not everybody needs headers. |
| 14:33.20 | crane | EdePopede: jhutchins: aaah, that makes sense. thx :) |
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| 14:36.04 | EdePopede | always nice > debtree --no-recommends linux-image-amd64 | dot -Tpng > linux-image-amd64.png |
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| 15:43.07 | pmart | What is the idea behind steam package in debian? i mean it's self-updating installation anyway |
| 15:43.43 | nkuttler | pmart: well, you need to install something so that it can auto-update.. |
| 15:43.48 | pmart | Is it any better than grabbing the deb from valve? |
| 15:44.14 | nkuttler | pmart: better integration with the package system? |
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| 15:50.25 | ksk | ,v steam |
| 15:50.46 | greycat | !steam |
| 15:50.47 | dpkg | Steam is a proprietary content delivery and management application for PC software with Linux support. Packaged in <non-free>; amd64 users are required to enable <multiarch> and install the steam:i386 package. For help with upstream issues, ask #steamlug on irc.freenode.net. http://wiki.debian.org/Steam |
| 15:51.17 | greycat | ,versions steam --arch i386 |
| 15:51.23 | pmart | idk it's packaged in a funny way (uses subset of valve deb as packaging source). I was thinking maybe the purpose is to make less of a mess in system by redirecting installation to homedir |
| 15:51.44 | greycat | *shrug* |
| 15:51.51 | ksk | One could argue it removes the need to download a .deb file - why not.. |
| 15:52.10 | queip | jelly: no. I think that paradigm is broken. I might write bug reports, maybe test. Maybe donate a bit. But this needs to be organized. |
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| 15:52.36 | queip | jelly: so far it seems that not much progress can be done since most upstream refuses to work with debian, since debian uses too old version "oh we probably fixed that years ago" |
| 15:53.17 | queip | perhaps we need upstreams to agree with major "stable" distros, like debian, to together maintain such LTS versions |
| 15:53.30 | queip | because now we can't even agree on what version to work on |
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| 15:54.54 | queip | jelly: kmail as provided in debian stable seems to be unusable. what if I even confirm it works fine in new kde? perhaps debian stable should allow updating stable with new versions if current versions or very unrealiable and often unusable |
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| 15:58.16 | ksk | queip: thats not really how the OSS world works though.. |
| 15:58.37 | queip | ksk: what do you mean? |
| 15:58.51 | ksk | Also take a look at Ubuntu, it is a company, but I would argue "these things" are not better, but rather worse in *buntu. |
| 15:59.14 | queip | not sure if "being a company" changes much |
| 15:59.29 | queip | I'm saying we need upstream and debian agree on LTS version |
| 16:00.01 | queip | a version so that debian users can contribut meaningful bug reports that upstream will be interested in, instead of throwing them all away "stop using debian Stale, lol" |
| 16:00.11 | ksk | queip: an upstream project want first of all develop its software, on their on terms. I can only imagine they would not like, for example having to follow some debian-whatever guidelines. |
| 16:00.18 | queip | and which when fixed debian might consider upgrading in stable version even for non-security bug fixes |
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| 16:00.48 | ksk | queip: its a poliy thing: Stable in debian means basicly "not changing". Switch to another distro, if that does not fit your needs ;) |
| 16:01.07 | queip | sure but "can you please choose a stable version, and keep it maintained for like 4 years plz" is pretty common and reasonable suggesion not something done only "for debian" |
| 16:01.22 | queip | just minimal bug fixes of serious bug |
| 16:01.26 | pmart | So the version of steam package really means initial version. I wasn't expecting that since it's in non-free section and there is no mention of self-update in description. It behaves a bit like packages in contrib really. |
| 16:01.32 | ksk | if you buy software from a company, yes you could argue. |
| 16:01.44 | ksk | if you use OSS software, you cant really tell if any of the maintainers is around next month.. |
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| 16:02.19 | ksk | Firefox will maybe, yes. But small(er) projects? |
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| 16:02.43 | queip | ksk: as end user I find this situation hard to accept, because I try to do pretty basic stuff and software falls short |
| 16:03.10 | queip | kmail is like 15+ years old |
| 16:03.35 | queip | this is kind of done with firefox-esr right? |
| 16:04.37 | ksk | I think so, yes. But as stated Firefox has enough manpower to release an ESR version in the first place. Many small project dont, or even just dont want to do so. |
| 16:06.45 | queip | for one, we should imo fix god damned akonadi postgresql (if it turns out that it instead mysql fixes kmail bugs) |
| 16:06.54 | shtrb | queip, I'm 100% that for the proper fee your bug might get fixed , or via a "funding" (in the past there had been a way to donate X euro to an organization that it will transfer that donation to devs to fix stuff) |
| 16:07.11 | queip | one would think that uninstalling akonadi-backend-mysql and installing -pgsql will make your programs use it, but no. the migration function is missing. it fails silently |
| 16:07.28 | shtrb | queip, if at irc you don't get answers , please try the mailing lists. |
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| 16:08.02 | azeem_ | queip: migrating a mysql db to postgres isn't trivial usually |
| 16:08.11 | shtrb | queip, there had been an option in the past in akonadiconsole (? i think) , but that feature had been deprecated, you can edit the .rc file manually to start with pg |
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| 16:08.51 | queip | azeem_: at least make it fail loudly. we detected you switched to pgsql. Should we save backup of mysql, and start with fresh db (all your akonadi local emails, contacts, alarms, will be eleted for the current user $user, backup will existin in $path to possibly restore if needed) |
| 16:08.59 | queip | azeem_: maybe one day write migration function too |
| 16:09.19 | shtrb | queip, it's probably there already , just no UI option now |
| 16:09.28 | azeem_ | queip: are you saying Debian should do that, or KDE? |
| 16:09.29 | shtrb | did you ask at #kde / #akonadi ? |
| 16:09.36 | queip | shtrb: yeap just did that. I will see if pgsql makes kmail work correctly (this bug takes days to show up) |
| 16:09.46 | queip | shtrb: yes, they told me to ask debian about their stale versions. xd |
| 16:09.59 | azeem_ | I mean, packages are installed globally, and they usually are not supposed to deal with user data |
| 16:10.01 | queip | (well kde-devel; kde is quiet, akonadi is ghost) |
| 16:10.04 | shtrb | stable version , not stale , our version is slitghly older |
| 16:10.38 | queip | shtrb: well it's a joke. but yeah developer will consider anyone using more than few months back a problem |
| 16:10.42 | shtrb | and the ubuntu bug that had refrenced might actually be on a newer version than buster have |
| 16:11.12 | shtrb | I'm a dev , and I don't , each dev has it's own quirks |
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| 16:13.07 | queip | <NateGraham[m]> we already do this for Plasma and Debian doesn't use it |
| 16:13.23 | queip | we don't we use stable branch of Plasm provided by KDE for stable debian? |
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| 16:14.11 | queip | *why |
| 16:14.44 | queip | ksk: maybe that policy needs revising just a bit - minmal fixes for very important bugs too |
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| 16:15.13 | ksk | Imho the drawbacks would kill Debian, but you are free to have your own opinion :) |
| 16:15.51 | ksk | I can only encourage you to switch something else, if Debian does not fit your needs, there are many distros with different aproaches out there. |
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| 16:16.45 | shtrb | or better , try to fix the actual bug |
| 16:17.00 | ksk | 16:13 < queip> we don't we use stable branch of Plasm provided by KDE for stable debian? -- because Debian Testing will become the next Stable release, and it needs to decide which versions to use, before the "freeze". |
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| 16:17.42 | queip | ksk: uhm? so decide to use the stable branch of plasma? |
| 16:18.10 | queip | ksk: most other distros are not serious |
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| 16:21.32 | pmart | why is plasma so old in sid? is there some technical problem with new releases or simply nobody has done the job? |
| 16:21.42 | shtrb | so old ? |
| 16:21.52 | pmart | 5.17 |
| 16:22.14 | pmart | 5.20 is the current upstream version |
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| 16:24.04 | pmart | there are uploads to experimental which suggests the former |
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| 16:38.04 | queip | what is the stupid keyring and why applications want me to unlock it? how to nuke it? why debian allows such bad ideas that no one asks for, and that lack clear option to disable them, explanation, nor even show their name |
| 16:38.30 | shtrb | you wish to have pgp encyption or not ? |
| 16:38.30 | ratrace | queip: it's hardly debian's fault |
| 16:38.51 | queip | shtrb: it's not pgp encryption |
| 16:38.56 | ratrace | if you want encrypted password store in chromium, for example, you either have a keyring, or you don't have encrypted passwords |
| 16:39.02 | *** mode/#debian [+l 1197] by debhelper |
| 16:39.04 | queip | afair it is that stupid gnome's master password thing |
| 16:39.13 | ratrace | yes |
| 16:39.19 | queip | that asks for some password, that user never sets, what the hell |
| 16:39.30 | shtrb | queip, you would be requested to unlock a keyring , if you had setup pgp encryption addon but an agent is not running already |
| 16:39.56 | queip | shtrb: what "keyring" in the world is it talking about, and what password? |
| 16:40.20 | queip | the question for the passphrase to use GPG key is a separate question, and that one is fine |
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| 16:40.34 | queip | but next it asks for some keyring password (probably from gnome, I have to guess), and I never set any such password |
| 16:41.00 | shtrb | you are using gnome AND akonadi at the same time ? |
| 16:41.21 | queip | shtrb: I use xfce as desktop, and I use kmail as email client, why not? |
| 16:41.45 | queip | I hope I do not have to base my desktop choices, nor to wear matching KDE branded shorts, when using kmail? |
| 16:42.28 | queip | I *guess* kmail spawns gpg's gnome-pinentery, and that pinentry asks me for gnome's keyring password. the problem is that I never set any such password so I can not enter it |
| 16:42.34 | ratrace | KDE Wallet is KDE's version of the keyring |
| 16:42.57 | ratrace | queip: it asks for gnome's or gnupg keyring? |
| 16:43.05 | queip | ratrace: that's what I want to know |
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| 16:43.58 | queip | ratrace: well, it is NOT the gnupg keyring password, since it does not work |
| 16:44.15 | queip | fist it asks for gnupg password, that part is OK and it works fine |
| 16:45.12 | queip | next it also asks idiotically for "password to unlock keyring" without explaining what keyring it wants. it should (1) explain wth is that and (2) tell me where to configure this password. also I never set up this password so it probably instead should ask me to create such password |
| 16:46.37 | vizzy | i changed from stable to testing but cannot full-upgrade (>1000 packages held back after doing upgrade and not updated but this is why i did that) ... now it tells me somthing about libc6 breaks libgcc-8-dev or somehting weird - how to fix? |
| 16:46.44 | vizzy | ho to force upgrade to testing? |
| 16:46.56 | greycat | !debian-next |
| 16:46.56 | dpkg | #debian-next is the channel for testing/unstable support on the OFTC network (irc.oftc.net), *not* on freenode. If you get "Cannot join #debian-next (Channel is invite only)." it means you did not read it's on irc.oftc.net. See also https://wiki.debian.org/IRC and https://wiki.debian.org/GettingHelpOnIrc |
| 16:47.36 | vizzy | and yet another irc network.... ok |
| 16:47.51 | vizzy | maybe i wait 24h and try again... a bit unstable for "testing" |
| 16:48.18 | flayer | tbh it sounds like you'd better off on stable |
| 16:48.49 | vizzy | i want testing to fix this very annoying kde bug with blackscreen after resume, which sucks a lot |
| 16:49.09 | vizzy | no fix in stable |
| 16:49.31 | flayer | what video card do you have? |
| 16:49.50 | vizzy | intel studd, let me check, its all on anothe rlaptop |
| 16:50.11 | vizzy | intel 620 |
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| 16:51.22 | vizzy | anyway, i changed form stable to testing and now i just want testing to upgrade |
| 16:51.52 | vizzy | but due to libc6 breaks libgcc8-dev-something weird, i cannot upggrade, ... broken fucked up system now |
| 16:52.04 | vizzy | good i didnt create any useful data here, will reinstall |
| 16:53.21 | pmart | queip: it asks for kwallet keyring password. gnome and kde use two different backends for storing secrets. things work out of the box (unlocking automatically during login) usually. maybe try to re-login? |
| 16:53.23 | vizzy | oh cool, lde has no more configurable screensavers? at least not after install kde-full |
| 16:53.59 | vizzy | oh, its called fancy pancy< screen locking |
| 16:54.09 | queip | pmart: I never configured such password. It looks really like a gnome application. The dialog that asks for KWallet password is different |
| 16:54.23 | vizzy | and no screensavers available? ouch |
| 16:58.39 | vizzy | ha! got it. its not damn plasma, its its screenlocker that didnt work by default, not letting me in again after activating, what a sucker |
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| 17:04.19 | pmart | queip: the default keyring/wallet uses your login password and unlocking should happen during login provided PAM modules are setup properly |
| 17:05.08 | pmart | Anyway consider using gnome softwere rather than kde since xfce closer to gnome |
| 17:06.15 | pmart | If you mix and match from different desktops don't expect everything to work flawless |
| 17:06.46 | queip | pmart: what do you mean with mix and match? |
| 17:06.56 | queip | I just use kmail program. I do not "mix and match" anything |
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| 17:08.29 | RoyK | hm - trying 'man gcc' and not found - I've installed manpages-dev and so on, but nothing there. any idas? |
| 17:08.48 | greycat | gcc documentation is non-free and is in a completely separate package that may or may not even exist |
| 17:09.03 | greycat | ,v gcc-doc |
| 17:09.31 | greycat | ... it replied in /msg just fine... is it quieted? not-identified? |
| 17:09.35 | gpunk | and manpages-dev is not the man pages for dev packages |
| 17:09.37 | RoyK | greycat: erm - how can it be non-free? |
| 17:09.48 | greycat | It's identified.... |
| 17:09.53 | gpunk | it is the devlopping libs to compile stuff with it |
| 17:10.12 | greycat | !gfdl |
| 17:10.12 | dpkg | [gfdl] The GNU "Free" Documentation License, considered <non-free> by Debian in some cases. Read the discussion at http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2003/debian-legal-200309/msg00169.html and http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2003/debian-legal-200304/msg00246.html . See the position statement at http://people.debian.org/~srivasta/Position_Statement.html and resolution at http://www.debian.org/vote/2006/vote_001 |
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| 17:10.31 | queip | people: it is the Unix way to choose any components and connect them to other elastic programs each doing it's job |
| 17:10.49 | queip | also same people: wow dude you use a G-application in KDE desktop or viceversa? impossible |
| 17:11.02 | gpunk | yes it is possible |
| 17:11.06 | greycat | oh, judd's simply not *here* ... that's why it's not responding |
| 17:11.18 | RoyK | anything happened to that recently? I can remember man gcc since 1995 or thereabouts |
| 17:11.35 | greycat | I'm pretty sure the GDFL is newer than 1995, yes. |
| 17:11.39 | greycat | GFDL |
| 17:12.01 | RoyK | well, it's not that long ago I had the gcc manual |
| 17:12.25 | greycat | type "/msg judd v gcc-doc" since it won't respond here |
| 17:12.56 | greycat | 13:09 =judd> Package: gcc-doc on amd64 -- jessie/contrib: 5:4.9.1-3; stretch/contrib: 5:6.1.0-1; buster-backports/contrib: 5:8.3.0-1~bpo10+1; bullseye/contrib: 5:10.1.0-1; sid/contrib: 5:10.1.0-1 |
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| 17:13.19 | greycat | It is not in buster. Which would be a whole lot easier to convey to people if judd were in #debian. |
| 17:13.25 | greycat | hmm, wonder if invite works |
| 17:13.32 | *** mode/#debian [+o greycat] by ChanServ |
| 17:13.44 | greycat | ... nope |
| 17:13.49 | *** mode/#debian [-o greycat] by greycat |
| 17:15.54 | ratrace | judd's just sick of y'all abusing it with yer fancy commas! |
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| 17:20.45 | RoyK | greycat: unable to install it from backports contribs as well - I guess I'll stick to googling. I wish people for once would agree on at least something as important as gcc |
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| 17:22.05 | charking | Hello. When I run man, I get no output. Like 'man find'. What could explain such a crazy thing? |
| 17:23.20 | greycat | what does "type man" say? |
| 17:23.41 | queip | how to have someting else then that gnome keyring bad program as the default pin-entry when ever gnupg wants a passphrase? |
| 17:25.21 | greycat | (in #bash they said "charking> man is hashed (/usr/bin/man)") |
| 17:25.33 | charking | oops, thanks |
| 17:25.56 | greycat | when you say "no output", do you mean you get another shell prompt immediately? or a blank screen? or something else? |
| 17:26.10 | charking | greycat: another shell prompt immediately. exit code 0 |
| 17:26.17 | greycat | ls -ld /usr/bin/man |
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| 17:26.49 | charking | -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 115200 Feb 10 2019 /usr/bin/man |
| 17:26.50 | gpunk | if "man" pages are not "free", just activate non-free repo in your debian then update and install |
| 17:27.07 | greycat | gpunk: gcc-doc is not in buster at all, is the issue here. |
| 17:27.23 | gpunk | even with non-free and contrib activated ? |
| 17:27.30 | gpunk | have you done "apt update" ? |
| 17:27.45 | greycat | charking: that matches what I have on buster amd64. Even the datestamp. So I guess the man pages themselves might be corrupt/missing? |
| 17:27.59 | greycat | 13:09 =judd> Package: gcc-doc on amd64 -- jessie/contrib: 5:4.9.1-3; stretch/contrib: 5:6.1.0-1; buster-backports/contrib: 5:8.3.0-1~bpo10+1; bullseye/contrib: 5:10.1.0-1; sid/contrib: 5:10.1.0-1 |
| 17:28.03 | greycat | gpunk: ^^^ |
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| 17:28.11 | charking | greycat: I see them if I search with man -k, which is weird |
| 17:28.22 | greycat | the index might have been cached. |
| 17:28.41 | charking | brb |
| 17:30.06 | gpunk | gcc-doc/buster-backports 5:8.3.0-1~bpo10+1 amd64 |
| 17:30.18 | gpunk | i will deactivate backports for you and redo the query |
| 17:31.08 | crestfallen | hi on buster I'm having trouble with gnome-terminal: while backspacing or deleting in the ghci repl the cursor leaps off the line and behaves strangely. I checked the keyboard settings and reset them to default (they were already set default). any suggestions? |
| 17:33.51 | crestfallen | this renders the repl unusable |
| 17:36.13 | crestfallen | something about charsets being out of date? I updating the system. |
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| 17:37.14 | charking | I rebooted but still no output from 'man ANYTHING_HERE' :( |
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| 17:37.32 | greycat | ls -ld /usr/share/man/man1/ls.1.gz |
| 17:38.38 | charking | -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 3190 Feb 28 2019 /usr/share/man/man1/ls.1.gz |
| 17:38.52 | charking | if I run 'man -d ls' I don't see anything untoward |
| 17:39.00 | charking | But I might be missing something |
| 17:39.08 | greycat | so the man pages themselves are present... maybe groff is messed up? or some other thing that man uses |
| 17:40.33 | greycat | or you've got some pages in /usr/local/man or /usr/local/share/man that are overriding the real ones |
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| 17:40.49 | charking | 'man -P more ls' works! |
| 17:40.55 | charking | So maybe the problem is with less? |
| 17:41.07 | greycat | could be. look for a LESS or PAGER variable. |
| 17:42.19 | charking | I don't have a $LESS or $PAGER variable in my environment |
| 17:42.59 | greycat | does less work if you invoke it directly with a file? |
| 17:43.09 | charking | This line of the man -d output looks weird: |
| 17:43.13 | charking | Setting LESS to -ix8RmPm Manual page find(1) ?ltline %lt?L/%L.:byte %bB?s/%s..?e (END):?pB %pB\%.. (press h for help or q to quit)$PM Manual page find(1) ?ltline %lt?L/%L.:byte %bB?s/%s..?e (END):?pB %pB\%.. (press h for help or q to quit)$ |
| 17:43.34 | gpunk | my man works |
| 17:43.34 | charking | greycat: yes, 'less foo.txt' works |
| 17:43.41 | gpunk | man ls for instance is fine |
| 17:44.02 | charking | gpunk: Do you get a Setting LESS to... line like mine if you use 'man -d ls'? |
| 17:44.22 | greycat | you'll want "man -d ls >/dev/null" so you can actually see the output |
| 17:44.31 | crestfallen | please let me know if I've omitted any explanation of this problem ^ |
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| 17:44.53 | tamberoo | how is everyone today? |
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| 17:46.00 | jelly | tamberoo: just fine. Are you a bot? |
| 17:46.05 | gpunk | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:46.18 | gpunk | do a : find /usr/share/man/ -name *gcc* please |
| 17:46.24 | charking | 'man -P less ls' works too |
| 17:46.25 | gpunk | you will find some man pages |
| 17:46.34 | gpunk | seems like names have changed |
| 17:46.46 | gpunk | and the man pages could be part of the gcc package it self |
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| 17:47.17 | charking | greycat: do you get that weird "Setting LESS to" line like I do if you use man -d? I'm wondering if man is overriding less with something bogus? |
| 17:47.32 | greycat | I do not, but I have LESS and PAGER variables... |
| 17:47.58 | gpunk | find /usr/share/man/ -name '*c++*' |
| 17:48.03 | greycat | hmm, even with (unset LESS PAGER; man -d ls 2>&1 >/dev/null | less) I don't see anything like that |
| 17:48.05 | gpunk | find /usr/share/man/ -name '*cpp*' |
| 17:48.15 | charking | if I do 'export PAGER=less', then run 'man ls', it works fine |
| 17:48.48 | greycat | https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/man-db/+bug/1774809 |
| 17:49.32 | greycat | https://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?t=208430 |
| 17:49.34 | charking | I think I may have figured out the problem :( |
| 17:51.22 | charking | It seems to be due to modifying PATH. I have export PATH="~/.local/bin:$PATH". If I comment that out, man works fine. |
| 17:51.35 | charking | (in .bashrc) |
| 17:51.45 | jhutchins | I saw "PAGER" and I did not immediately think of software. |
| 17:51.49 | greycat | the mint person had a stray /usr/local/bin/nroff ... maybe you have nroff or groff or something in that .local/bin/ |
| 17:54.18 | charking | ahha, I had the R bin directory on PATH, and it contains a file named 'pager'. I bet that's the problem |
| 17:54.40 | charking | ~/R/lib/R/bin/pager |
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| 17:55.21 | charking | yep, if I move the 'pager' executable, man works fine. |
| 17:56.01 | charking | That is nuts. Thanks for helping me to pin down the problem. Sorry it was just something with my configuration |
| 17:56.51 | greycat | setting PAGER=less might help if you don't want to mess with R |
| 17:58.54 | jhutchins | charking: Is it a file or a symlink? |
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| 18:09.18 | gpunk | so was the problem was "man gcc" and the man package ? |
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| 18:14.18 | fabbo | dpkg -l lists installed and removed packages, is there a way to list the installed ones only |
| 18:14.18 | dpkg | No packages found matching lists installed and removed packages, is there a way to list the installed ones only |
| 18:14.50 | FightingFalcon | My host send me an email today, stating that my ip address is sending POST and GET requests to several IP addresses. How could i detect this? |
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| 18:15.21 | greycat | they're bitching at you for running a web browser? huh? |
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| 18:18.39 | FightingFalcon | what |
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| 18:19.43 | greycat | (1) how do you know it's a legit email, not just phishing/spam, (2) what is "your ip" and how does it differ from an ordinary end user machine, (3) what does it actually say, (4) why is the fact that you are "sending requests" significant? |
| 18:20.11 | greycat | Context would help. |
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| 18:22.23 | FightingFalcon | I dunno, they just sent me an email saying that another hos sent them an abuse email. showing logs |
| 18:22.27 | ratrace | fabbo: | grep '^ii' |
| 18:22.41 | ratrace | FightingFalcon: there were 4 questions in there |
| 18:25.47 | shtrb | FightingFalcon, check if your server doesn't have suscious outgoing activity , there are several well known garbage software that is sometime installed on vaulnerable servers to attack others |
| 18:26.03 | FightingFalcon | shtrb, how do i check? |
| 18:26.11 | greycat | so "my ip" is a server, not a desktop machine? that was one of the things I asked... |
| 18:26.33 | shtrb | I'm assuming your ip is a fixed ip , and a server |
| 18:26.56 | greycat | *sigh* |
| 18:27.16 | shtrb | did I say something wrong ? sorry if I had , I did not wish to offended you or anyone else |
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| 18:27.19 | greycat | I get so freaking sick of people who REFUSE to provide BASIC INFORMATION and just sit there being a help vampire until someone makes a lucky guess. |
| 18:27.27 | ratrace | indeed |
| 18:27.28 | greycat | shtrb: no, you're fine. |
| 18:30.02 | shtrb | FightingFalcon, start by following https://debian-handbook.info/browse/stable/sect.dealing-with-compromised-machine.html |
| 18:30.29 | ratrace | that's a load of assumption there tho |
| 18:30.48 | ratrace | who said it was compromised? the context greycat asked for would _really_ help here |
| 18:31.01 | RoyK | fabbo: dpkg -l | awk '/^ii/ { print $2 }' |
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| 18:32.14 | ratrace | but to answer the question of "how to find which process is making POST requests" (which wasn't asked, but is close to what _I_ am assuming is the actual question), you use tcpdump and/or lsof to find the ports and with lsof the pid of the port owner. an auditctl rule woudl also help |
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| 18:38.17 | queip | how to have gpg use a graphical pinentry that is not that crap from gnome? |
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| 18:42.34 | jelly | RoyK, ratrace: you probably want ^.i not just ^ii |
| 18:42.53 | jelly | held packages will have ^hi |
| 18:43.43 | jelly | and packages for removal, but still installed, will be ^ri |
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| 18:48.12 | ratrace | jelly: I see |
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| 18:50.10 | jelly | no, ^ic would be for packages dpkg/dselect thinks should be installed, but only conffiles are present |
| 18:53.19 | ratrace | jelly: hawwwww! |
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| 18:59.22 | zerocool | anyone here a linux admin for a large enterprise? |
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| 19:02.03 | TuxBlackEdo | I am having some problems installing debian 10 through PXE, for some odd reason the installer keeps exiting, when I switch to a console and type /sbin/debain-installer manually the install proceeds as normally, what could this be? https://i.imgur.com/xCkksRN.png |
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| 19:05.14 | jelly | zerocool: what about a tiny enterprise |
| 19:07.54 | zerocool | if you make fat stacks then that applies :) |
| 19:08.25 | tulpa | hello, new debian user here. I just ran systemctl status and it says my system is degraded. This message is in red in the output: â systemd-modules-load.service loaded failed failed Load Kernel Modules |
| 19:08.36 | tulpa | How should I go about troubleshooting this issue? |
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| 19:12.19 | tulpa | found this in my log: Oct 25 18:22:25 vps2 systemd-modules-load[293]: Failed to find module 'acpiphp' |
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| 19:15.36 | ratrace | tulpa: now grep dmesg for acpiphp for more info |
| 19:16.03 | ratrace | zerocool: define "large". you can have small team and make gazillions off of mobile |
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| 19:17.02 | sney | my friend is a linux admin for a very big datacenter company and that probably qualifies. but I wonder what the real question is |
| 19:20.58 | tulpa | dmesg | grep acpiphp tells me this: [ 0.490403] acpiphp: ACPI Hot Plug PCI Controller Driver version: 0.5 |
| 19:20.58 | tulpa | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:21.03 | *** join/#debian firespeaker (~jonathan@c-76-124-47-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 19:21.36 | firespeaker | the current combination of nvidia driver version and kernel source version in sid fails to compile. an older kernel or newer nvidia version is needed to make it work |
| 19:21.58 | sney | firespeaker: yes, this is a known issue. nvidia estimates a driver release next month |
| 19:22.03 | sney | !debian-next |
| 19:22.04 | dpkg | #debian-next is the channel for testing/unstable support on the OFTC network (irc.oftc.net), *not* on freenode. If you get "Cannot join #debian-next (Channel is invite only)." it means you did not read it's on irc.oftc.net. See also https://wiki.debian.org/IRC and https://wiki.debian.org/GettingHelpOnIrc |
| 19:22.14 | sney | please take future sid/testing issues to ^ |
| 19:22.19 | ratrace | ,v linux-image-amd64 |
| 19:22.24 | firespeaker | aha |
| 19:22.33 | greycat | we are still juddless |
| 19:22.37 | ratrace | blast! |
| 19:22.51 | jelly | are we now |
| 19:22.53 | ratrace | okay, 5.9 is in sid |
| 19:23.01 | ratrace | yeah nvidia hasn't released yet for 5.9 and won't for a while |
| 19:23.01 | greycat | the bot is online, just not in #debian |
| 19:23.06 | greycat | it responds to /msg |
| 19:23.34 | firespeaker | ratrace: the "short-lived" version works on debian though |
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| 19:23.56 | sney | it's a new change for 5.9 in how non-gpl modules are allowed to interact with the rest of the kernel. oracle fixed this for virtualbox-dkms pretty quickly, so it's safe to assume nvidia won't be far behind |
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| 19:24.14 | sney | in the meantime, your system still has a 5.8 kernel installed, use that for now |
| 19:24.17 | ratrace | https://forums.developer.nvidia.com/t/nvidia-driver-not-yet-supported-for-linux-kernel-5-9/157263 |
| 19:24.54 | ratrace | sney: a certain Finn and a middle finger come to mind :) |
| 19:24.57 | firespeaker | sney: nvidia did fix it |
| 19:25.08 | firespeaker | sney: unstable just has an older version of the driver |
| 19:25.43 | jelly | greycat: there seems to be no easy race-less way to ask freenode ircd and services not to let you into any channels before the client is identified |
| 19:26.05 | greycat | Yeah, I had an issue with greybot too, after we made #bash +r. |
| 19:26.15 | ratrace | firespeaker: what version of it? I can't find any info online that they fixed it |
| 19:26.18 | greycat | I just hard-coded the steps at bot startup, assuming that I will only have to identify one time. |
| 19:26.31 | firespeaker | ratrace: well 455.* compiles for me on 5.9.0 |
| 19:27.03 | greycat | I also made greybot willing to accept an /invite to a specific list of channels (long time ago). |
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| 19:29.01 | ratrace | firespeaker: on debian? |
| 19:29.13 | firespeaker | yep |
| 19:31.54 | ratrace | weird. 455.28 was released _Before_ nvidia made the statement about it not being yet ready for the changes in 5.9 |
| 19:32.03 | sney | 455 is in experimental. there's no mention of a kernel compatibility fix in the changelog, and the driver was released on sept 17th, so that's... yeah |
| 19:32.28 | sney | ah, apparently it builds but is missing a lot of features. |
| 19:32.43 | ratrace | right, can't be it compiles unless the changes in the kernel are patched out |
| 19:34.12 | sney | it's been a while since we've had this kind of "keep all the pieces" issue with a kernel driver in sid, I think |
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| 19:35.10 | ratrace | sid stopped taking meds it seems :) |
| 19:36.48 | ratrace | sney: though we had a similar issue twice with zfs |
| 19:36.57 | ratrace | (similar = GPL condom breaking) |
| 19:37.37 | sney | did we get unbuildable modules? I use zfs for /home and don't remember that. though maybe I was tracking buster at the time |
| 19:37.49 | ratrace | yes but it was fixed |
| 19:38.12 | ratrace | the first offense was about simd thingies and zfs was just built without it (still is in Buster) |
| 19:41.57 | ratrace | 'twas fixed fast because it blocked the point release bump .. one of those rare things wehre the upstream pulls down political patches mid-LTS and breaks our toys |
| 19:42.20 | ratrace | (pulls down = backports from mainline to LTS) |
| 19:46.40 | karlpinc | I am working on my ssh-fu. In ~/.ssh/config the difference between %n and %h is dependent on the workings of CanonicalizeHostname, yes? |
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| 19:48.22 | uniqdom | i |
| 19:48.23 | greycat | I... guess you'd need to write a rule that expands %h and prints it somewhere so you can see what it gets. |
| 19:48.50 | greycat | or ask #openssh |
| 19:48.56 | karlpinc | greycat: I might be able to mess around with, say, ssh -vvv .... |
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| 19:49.34 | greycat | ah right, it's a client side token. I really have no idea what it does. |
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| 19:55.58 | f8e4 | how to copy a file up with ssh? |
| 19:56.05 | f8e4 | scp still |
| 19:56.10 | f8e4 | or rather other? |
| 19:56.13 | another | sftp |
| 19:56.15 | greycat | !scp |
| 19:56.15 | dpkg | scp is Secure Copy, part of the ssh suite, and a very handy program. The client program is in the openssh-client package and it just uses the ssh server at the other end so you don't need to install anything special on the server (openssh-server package). Install <scponly> or <rssh> to restrict commands to scp users. More information: <sftp>, <sshfs>. |
| 19:56.49 | greycat | scp has some issues. if you run into ANY kind of problem with it, just stop and switch to something better. |
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| 19:57.03 | greycat | it's fairly OK for simple command-line use, with simple filenames, though |
| 19:57.35 | sney | I use scp for single files and rsync for anything more complicated |
| 19:57.54 | f8e4 | dang rsync yes indeed |
| 19:57.58 | n4dir | what is the advantage to use scp for single files? |
| 19:58.02 | ratrace | I use rsync for single files too. only 3 or so characters more to type |
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| 19:58.12 | greycat | it's two letters shorter? |
| 19:58.21 | n4dir | ha ha. ok. got it |
| 19:58.25 | sney | no advantage really, just autopilot |
| 19:58.48 | n4dir | sney: ah, i see. Thanks for explaining |
| 19:59.11 | ratrace | alias scp='rsync' *giggitty* |
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| 20:00.59 | n4dir | i pretty much like sshfs for confusing stuff. But often people said it would be not good. For me it works though |
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| 20:02.08 | greycat | I've only used sshfs a handful of times. From what I gather on IRC, some people have issues with it on longer duration mounts, or over unreliable networks. |
| 20:02.38 | n4dir | ah, might be. I only do it in the local home network, also not for that long |
| 20:03.19 | ratrace | yeah, sshfs is best used with autofs |
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| 20:05.22 | bariscant | Hello everyone, I have a debian networking question. I have 1 gateway server and 2 client servers. I assigned fixed IP to one of them, from gateway's dhcp config. I need to set fixed ip to the other server. But I want to accomplish that from client itself. What would be the best way for that? |
| 20:06.41 | ratrace | bariscant: regular static IP configuration . just make sure you use an adress in the range ousside of dhcp's domain |
| 20:06.48 | greycat | if you want to set a static IP on a machine, just put it in /etc/network/interfaces |
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| 20:10.02 | bariscant | greycat: I have done that actually. However, after restarting networking service, host could not assing an IP to itself and I locked out. Shouldn't dhcp client respect static ip definition under the /etc/network/interfaces file? Or is there any other configuration that needs to be done? |
| 20:10.36 | ratrace | bariscant: you don't run a dhcpclient along with static network configuration, you can't even with interfaces(5) |
| 20:10.38 | greycat | If the machine has one network interface, and you want to set a static IP on it, you do not ALSO configure it to run dhcp. That makes no sense. |
| 20:11.32 | greycat | A given interface should only be configured in one way. Pick one -- static /e/n/i, DHCP from /e/n/i, network-manager, etc. |
| 20:12.04 | ratrace | (systemd-networkd, ...) |
| 20:12.11 | greycat | that falls under the etc. |
| 20:12.44 | ratrace | someone port netplan.io! :) |
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| 20:13.52 | bariscant | greycat: Yes host has only one interface which originally configured with dhcp. I want to change it so that it uses static ip. |
| 20:14.44 | greycat | so you comment out the line that says "iface enp2s0 inet dhcp" and replace it with "iface enp2s0 inet static" and then under that, a line for address and a line for gateway |
| 20:14.54 | greycat | replace enp2s0 with your interface name |
| 20:16.20 | ratrace | https://wiki.debian.org/NetworkConfiguration#Configuring_the_interface_manually |
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| 20:17.29 | fireba11 | since the topic is on networking already ... how should a config for a second interface using the same network segment look like? (ipv4 and v6) ... haven't been able to find a example |
| 20:17.52 | greycat | you shouldn't *have* two interfaces on the same numeric network |
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| 20:18.16 | ratrace | subnet you mean |
| 20:18.20 | greycat | right |
| 20:19.10 | fireba11 | greycat: i need a second public IP ... i can also configure more ips on the existing interface, doesn't make much difference |
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| 20:19.50 | greycat | two address on the same subnet on one interface is more reasonable, yes |
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| 20:20.13 | greycat | I'm not sure what the "right" way is to set that up in /e/n/i these days. I've seen so many contradictory stories. |
| 20:20.27 | ratrace | https://wiki.debian.org/NetworkConfiguration#Multiple_IP_addresses_on_one_Interface |
| 20:20.28 | fireba11 | greycat: it is? i thought that wouldn't matter much ... |
| 20:20.31 | greycat | In the old days, you made a pseudo interface name like eth0:1 but I take it that's frowned upon now. |
| 20:21.02 | ratrace | eth0:1 is old ifconfig artifact. iproute doesn't do that, just repeat the iface stanza |
| 20:21.29 | fireba11 | ah, if that wotks now i'll try. guess it's the same for v6 |
| 20:21.32 | greycat | why does the wiki say it's dangerous? |
| 20:22.09 | fireba11 | hm ... hoster preconfigured on ipv4 and eth0:1 with the v6 address .. -_- |
| 20:22.33 | ratrace | greycat: probably refers to locking oneself out of remote/ssh access |
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| 20:22.42 | bariscant | greycat & ratrace: only lines interfaces file has is loopback device. Like I said I added "iface ens6 inet static" and followed by address, broadcast, netmask, gw address. |
| 20:23.08 | ratrace | broadcast and netmask are no longer needed, write the addr in CIDR notation instead |
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| 20:23.18 | greycat | broadcast is legacy, and netmask is usually just a /24 or /whatever on the address |
| 20:23.22 | ratrace | you really need only the "address" and "gateway" items |
| 20:23.48 | greycat | did you forget the "auto ens6"? |
| 20:25.09 | fireba11 | almost locked myself out of the box yesterday trying to configure the second interface since i just copied config and then later noticed i now had 2 ipv4 gateways :-D luckily that does not brak ipv6 so i could still log in and fix it |
| 20:25.11 | bariscant | greycat: that is not present in the config actually. |
| 20:25.22 | greycat | that would be a big problem |
| 20:25.34 | greycat | unless you were planning to bring it up manually every time |
| 20:26.56 | ratrace | fireba11: use config automation and a VM to test out stuffs before prod |
| 20:26.57 | bariscant | greycat: so the problem was eventhough my config was correct, because I forgot to add auto ens6 line my interface never was up after resetting networking. |
| 20:28.34 | fireba11 | ratrace: i usually do. it's the first time i ever neede a second public IP .. want to run a turn server at port 443 ;-) |
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| 20:29.41 | ratrace | fireba11: why..... do you need second IP for that |
| 20:30.00 | ratrace | that was a requirement many many years ago, before SNI became ubiquitous |
| 20:30.07 | fireba11 | ratrace: turn server can't really share the port with http server |
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| 20:30.56 | ratrace | I guess I misread "turn" as a typo or something, lol |
| 20:31.00 | ratrace | no idea what tha is |
| 20:31.12 | fireba11 | and i need to use a common port to increase the chances of our customers being able to reach it. if their internet wasn't looked down i would not need the turn server at all |
| 20:31.42 | greycat | !turn server |
| 20:32.12 | fireba11 | ratrace: https://github.com/coturn/coturn basically a helper server to traverse NAT |
| 20:34.11 | greycat | "With WebRTC, you can add real-time communication capabilities to your application" ... "For most WebRTC applications to function a server is required for relaying the traffic between peers, since a direct socket is often not possible between the clients" ... "The term stands for Traversal Using Relay NAT" |
| 20:34.47 | greycat | so it has something to do with what we used to call peer-to-peer communications, but somehow the word "web" is involved |
| 20:34.55 | fireba11 | :-D |
| 20:35.58 | fireba11 | it alos helps with clients that got udp outgoing blocked since they can send tcp to turn server and that connects properly via udp to the server then. am using it for a bigbluebutton videoconferencing server, we got clients that can't get out of their network in reasonable ways, lol |
| 20:36.03 | imMute | greycat: because if it's not "Over HTTP" then it doesn't exist /s |
| 20:37.59 | c-c | browser apps are the apps |
| 20:38.05 | c-c | get over it |
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| 20:41.09 | ratrace | agrees |
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| 20:44.20 | bariscant | greycat & ratrace: thank you for your answers and patience. :) |
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| 20:45.28 | ratrace | !next |
| 20:45.28 | dpkg | Another happy customer leaves the building. |
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| 20:47.06 | bariscant | dpkg: haha, this is actually first time I use irc. I am very happy about the outcome. :) |
| 20:47.06 | dpkg | I think you lost me on that one, bariscant |
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| 20:50.08 | ratrace | bariscant: talk to the bots and the men in white coats will come for you... |
| 20:53.51 | fireba11 | haha |
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| 20:57.12 | c-c | When the wall start walking, its time to face "outside" |
| 20:57.29 | c-c | ugh, *talking |
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| 20:57.41 | RoyK | zerocool: a few hundred servers |
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| 21:48.54 | karlpinc | RoyK: You have to follow the instructions at backports.debian.org to install the gcc docs. _And_ you have to enable the non-free section of the repo. For reasons I didn't lookup the docs are simply not in buster itself. |
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| 21:49.45 | azeem | it's the FSF's GFDL documentation license which has immutable sections that Debian considers incompatible with the DFSG |
| 21:52.51 | greycat | All I know is gcc-doc was removed from testing during buster's freeze, and never made it back in. I don't know the details of why. |
| 21:54.16 | nkuttler | if it was for licensing it could just have been moved to non-free, like other fsf docs |
| 21:54.38 | azeem | that'd be https://packages.qa.debian.org/g/gcc-doc-defaults/news/20181104T043920Z.html I guess |
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| 22:07.32 | abff | can someone help me out with console-setup? I have made a change to /etc/default/keyboard that is persistent in X but does not work in tty until I run setupcon after boot. I've tried to use setupcon --save but it doesn't fix it. |
| 22:07.58 | abff | Can I just rm the cached scripts in /etc/console-setup? |
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| 22:15.26 | sney | abff: cache stuff is typically safe to delete, though I'm not familiar with that one in particular. maybe move the files elsewhere and see what happens |
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| 22:16.12 | abff | yeah I'm not really sure what's happening either |
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| 22:24.00 | foul_owl | I'm having a problem with alsa. Trying to measure latency in ardour, the latency is not consistent, and can vary by up to 30 ms |
| 22:24.29 | foul_owl | I'm not looking for low latency, but consistent latency |
| 22:24.50 | foul_owl | Ideally not varying by 1 sample, if that is even possible |
| 22:24.58 | ratrace | no guarantees with 250Hz voluntarily preemptible kernel |
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| 22:26.23 | foul_owl | How does anyone use Linux for audio? And how do people use Windows for audio without a new kernel? |
| 22:26.32 | sney | !rt |
| 22:26.32 | dpkg | The PREEMPT_RT (linux-rt) realtime patch set allows for nearly all of the Linux kernel to be preempted, which may help achieve better low-latency behavior in some environments. Since August 2011, the Debian Kernel Team produce binary packages including this patch set, for the amd64 (linux-image-rt-amd64 metapackage) and i386 (linux-image-rt-686-pae metapackage) architectures. http://rt.wiki.kernel.org/ |
| 22:26.44 | foul_owl | I don't need realtime audio |
| 22:26.51 | foul_owl | I don't care if the latency is 10 seconds |
| 22:26.56 | ratrace | foul_owl: typically with the kernel optimized for that |
| 22:26.58 | foul_owl | As long as its *always* 10 seconds |
| 22:27.15 | ratrace | consistency and ability for low latency come hand in hand |
| 22:27.26 | foul_owl | Ahhhhh ok |
| 22:27.33 | foul_owl | I thought it would be a tradeoff, my bad |
| 22:27.36 | ratrace | again, a 250Hz voluntarily preemptible kernel (debian default) cannot gaurantee anything |
| 22:27.59 | foul_owl | Can't the audio code go "We will wait for the 10 second mark to keep latency consistent" |
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| 22:28.21 | foul_owl | I realize it's still possible for the alsa code to not run in 10 seconds, but it's highly unlikely right? |
| 22:28.25 | ratrace | how would that work... if you wait for latency then you add latency.... |
| 22:28.35 | foul_owl | It would add padding |
| 22:28.49 | foul_owl | Ie, if it's done early, it pads the latency so it's always, say, 10 seconds |
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| 22:29.40 | abff | sney: I moved the cached scripts and reran setupcon --save but after reboot the change is still not persistent |
| 22:29.50 | ratrace | in audio, the "latency" is about emptying the rather short audio buffers asap. if the kernel is tied elsewhere, eg. in IO, or in a critical non-preemptible section, your audio thread wil starve |
| 22:30.22 | abff | sney: they did get remade too, so its not the cache that's overwritting my desired changes |
| 22:30.30 | foul_owl | My apologies, let me explain my issue |
| 22:30.40 | abff | maybe its the keymap that gets used during boot |
| 22:30.46 | foul_owl | I'm trying to get recorded audio to line up correctly |
| 22:31.03 | foul_owl | Right now there is a delay of ~2450 samples |
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| 22:31.21 | foul_owl | The correct procedure is to measure this sample offset and have the DAW compensate |
| 22:31.29 | foul_owl | Easily doable with Ardour or Reaper |
| 22:31.35 | ratrace | are you even using something like pro audio hardware? |
| 22:31.46 | sney | abff: dunno then, sorry. is your issue mentioned at bugs.debian.org/console-setup anywhere? |
| 22:31.55 | foul_owl | But if you get a different measurement every time, compensation is impossible |
| 22:31.58 | foul_owl | Yes of course |
| 22:32.06 | abff | sney: we shall see |
| 22:32.35 | ratrace | foul_owl: via jack and no pulseaudio? |
| 22:32.47 | foul_owl | Not using jack, just alsa |
| 22:33.03 | foul_owl | And absolutely not using PA |
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| 22:46.34 | H-var | I've been clean for a whole month now! Wooo! :D |
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| 22:47.23 | genr8_ | how do i find out why is the debian version of "file" built without seccomp support (read the manpage for -S option) |
| 22:47.55 | sponix | genr8_: what does seccomp support do ? |
| 22:48.10 | ratrace | genr8_: check the deb source, maybe there's a comment in the rules file |
| 22:48.38 | genr8_ | i started there. its not explained. |
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| 22:49.09 | ratrace | yeah, I see, it's not... https://sources.debian.org/src/file/1:5.38-5/debian/rules/#L24 |
| 22:49.10 | JordiGH | Wonder if I'll have any luck using a canon digital camera as a webcam. |
| 22:49.26 | genr8_ | im going to recompile it myself from source but it makes hardly any sense, when we have the library (not by default perhaps?) libseccomp2 |
| 22:51.04 | ratrace | genr8_: I'm still wondering why not all pacakges are built with relro either |
| 22:51.24 | n4dir | foul_owl: you could ask in #ardour, in #opensourcemusicians or in #lau. Assuming here will not lead anywhere, not saying here is "wrong". |
| 22:51.25 | genr8_ | ugh |
| 22:51.44 | H-var | (I haven't logged into windows for 31 days now) |
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| 22:52.52 | Brigo_ | i don't remember last time i logged into windows. Lucky me :) |
| 22:52.55 | genr8_ | ratrace, possibly relevant to your question, i find this in the script. DEB_BUILD_MAINT_OPTIONS = hardening=+all |
| 22:53.57 | genr8_ | I found a bug report with my question https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=917930 |
| 22:53.58 | judd | Bug https://bugs.debian.org/917930 in file (closed, confirmed): «Enable seccomp support in 11-bullseye»; severity: normal; opened: 2018-12-31; last modified: 2019-08-14. |
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| 22:54.11 | ratrace | eh was just browsing through those bugs |
| 22:54.13 | genr8_ | That seems wise. I'll leave the bug open though so I'm reminded to enable seccomp after the 10-buster release. <-- guess we should ping him to remind him |
| 22:54.31 | genr8_ | i didnt check sid tho |
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| 22:55.20 | ratrace | genr8_: it's disabled in sid. yeah, a reminder would be in order |
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| 22:55.58 | genr8_ | ok |
| 22:56.05 | foul_owl | Thank you |
| 22:57.01 | genr8_ | he said it could have side effects but i think we have enough time to test it for 11 even if he forgot until now |
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| 22:57.58 | ratrace | genr8_: fwiw, file with seccomp on my gentoo boxen works just fine it seems. |
| 23:02.23 | randombit | im gonna have an outdated question, yet it still itches me, so maybe someone happens to know what it was. back in the day when Jessie came out, i still had Wheezy as the main system. so I had both Wheezy, and Jessie system, and used both. So when I rebooted into the other system (i think it was irrelevant from which, to which, as happened to both), when the system booted in, the _BACKGROUND_ image was still there from the other |
| 23:02.23 | randombit | system, yet ""pixelated"" weirdly... then disappeared... im just wondering why was that... the background img staying in memory when rebooting? or what? |
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| 23:05.07 | ratrace | randombit: yes, possibly unclean video ram remains, as reboot doesn't power the gpu off |
| 23:05.27 | ratrace | I've seen that too sometimes even post jessie |
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| 23:06.24 | abff | sney: one user is reporting a similar problem to me recently, so I'll just hop on that chain. Thanks for trying to help |
| 23:06.34 | sney | np, good luck |
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| 23:07.18 | randombit | nice. then i was right. at least. in theory. it was very weird. but i never asked about it. so, now i did :) |
| 23:07.37 | randombit | after 6 years? idk. |
| 23:08.10 | randombit | tx |
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| 23:15.20 | gpunk | fyi: I have sweted a few minutes |
| 23:15.34 | gpunk | for testing bullseye, I activated testing and updated |
| 23:15.53 | sney | !debian-next |
| 23:15.53 | dpkg | #debian-next is the channel for testing/unstable support on the OFTC network (irc.oftc.net), *not* on freenode. If you get "Cannot join #debian-next (Channel is invite only)." it means you did not read it's on irc.oftc.net. See also https://wiki.debian.org/IRC and https://wiki.debian.org/GettingHelpOnIrc |
| 23:16.09 | gpunk | I had all ports open, firewalld wasnt working as expected |
| 23:16.39 | gpunk | after a little investigation, I found out, that it switched to nftables, hence none of my rules were actives |
| 23:17.13 | gpunk | so I reconfigured firewalld to use iptables, restarted it, it is all ok now |
| 23:17.35 | gpunk | is it normal that I had no warning what so ever during the upgrade ? |
| 23:18.08 | gpunk | oh ok ... i'll say it again to -next |
| 23:18.08 | ratrace | ewww firewalld |
| 23:18.22 | sney | gpunk: as dpkg said, this is not the support channel for testing. also, testing is a moving target; the changes from debian 10 to 11 will be documented after the freeze and published as the debian 11 release notes when the release happens. |
| 23:18.35 | genr8_ | gpunk, someone reported that lats week, seems to be a known issue |
| 23:18.53 | gpunk | genr8_: ok thank you. |
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| 23:19.01 | sney | gpunk: don't repost the same complaint in -next, I will just give you the same reply there. but fyi for the future. debian testing is a development platform. you have to expect changes, and you can't always expect to be warned. |
| 23:19.13 | gpunk | unfortunatley I cannot join -next , we need to be invited to it ... |
| 23:19.20 | sney | literally read the factoid |
| 23:19.25 | genr8_ | wrong network |
| 23:19.43 | gpunk | calm down babies , read my messages too ! |
| 23:20.50 | genr8_ | we cant do anything about it from here |
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| 23:21.38 | gpunk | genr8_: Do you enjoy wasting your time ? |
| 23:22.35 | genr8_ | no. gpunk!*@* added to ignore list. |
| 23:22.59 | gpunk | voila a smart move |
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| 23:42.05 | randombit | haha |
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