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| 21:42.46 | Trel | Anyone have any idea of what I can do to achieve this? |
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| 21:43.17 | Trel | it's for a docker instance only exposed to the machine intended to get into it so there's not a risk of anyoneelse doing so |
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| 21:59.06 | Trel | somiaj: because I explicitly do not want a key, or password |
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| 22:00.35 | Trel | I'm open to options other than telnet, but I need to be able to send commands from one server to this one with absolutely zero authenciation |
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| 22:00.59 | Trel | If there's another (better) way to do that, I'm very open to it |
| 22:01.42 | Trel | Remember, it's debian docker container, so I'm not worried about anyone else getting in. |
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| 22:03.00 | Trel | But yeah, I figured telnet would be the 'cheapest' option, but I'm having no luck getting it to work, so I'm open to pretty much anything as long as its lightweight. |
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| 22:04.30 | somiaj | I don't see why ssh with a key won't do what you want. It has the added feature of encryption, and once you set up the key (which isn't hard) will drop you directly into a shell or even let you run commands via ssh hostnae command |
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| 22:04.59 | somiaj | though if it is a docker container, attaching (equivlant of chrooting into it) maybe really what you want. |
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| 22:07.55 | Trel | somiaj: with a key means, I have to make sure the docker images contain the public and private key, every time I build it, and it also slows it down since it has to encrypt/decrypt |
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| 22:08.10 | Trel | Also the connection is coming from another container, so docker related commands aren't relevant |
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| 22:24.09 | Thedarkb-M90 | What's a Linux alternative to RDP? |
| 22:24.46 | somiaj | Thedarkb-M90: really depends on what you need. And what client you are using. |
| 22:24.58 | wigums | vnc |
| 22:25.21 | somiaj | Thedarkb-M90: there is xrdp if you just want to use that. Many just use ssh -X, as wigums said vnc, spice is a bit nicer than vnc for some things. |
| 22:26.36 | Thedarkb-M90 | Basically, I just want to run programs on my Xeon rig from my Pentium rig. |
| 22:26.57 | somiaj | Thedarkb-M90: what os on both? Do you want to see the full gui enviorment, or just have the program (preferable) on your system. |
| 22:27.24 | Thedarkb-M90 | Xeon rig is running Debian, Pentium M rig is running ubuntu+openbox+fbpanel |
| 22:27.35 | Thedarkb-M90 | I call it fubuntu |
| 22:27.44 | vergilzen | throw your ssh key on the xeon for your pentium |
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| 22:28.05 | vergilzen | ssh -Y xeon -f kickbutt-x-program |
| 22:28.21 | wigums | when i boot at the grub screen i hit "e" to bring up grub but it boots right away before i can edit anything. my screen is black after boot but the system comes up and is useable in every way but the black screen. nomodeset makes sense at this point but it boots before i can do anything. so how do i set nomodeset? |
| 22:28.23 | somiaj | Thedarkb-M90: ssh -X othermachine command to run will run the command on the remote server, but put the gui visual in your current xorg enviorment. |
| 22:28.34 | Thedarkb-M90 | That's cool, I'll use that. |
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| 22:29.04 | maxzor | A package (metronome) is asking apt libssl1.0.0 dependency, and errors while i have libssl 1.0.2 installed. Any workaround? |
| 22:29.12 | Thedarkb-M90 | So, how do I set up a server on this thing? |
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| 22:29.31 | somiaj | maxzor: rebuild the package to correctly depend on libssl 1.0.2 would be the prefered method. |
| 22:29.40 | Thedarkb-M90 | Also, the Xeon isn't in my Xeon rig yet. |
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| 22:29.51 | Thedarkb-M90 | It's in the post office, I'm using an i3 as a poor substitute. |
| 22:30.48 | somiaj | maxzor: the differences are small, you could say make a link from the libssl.so.1.0.0 to the libssl.so.1.0.2 libary and many programs can just use the link. Some are explicity dependint on 1.0.0 by reqring a version look up screen (in that case you need an older insecure version) |
| 22:30.54 | maxzor | somiaj cannot I just specify the dependency during apt install? I am miles away from knowing how to repackage |
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| 22:31.23 | somiaj | maxzor: no, as a dependency issue you probably hsouln'dt install that software as a package. You want to keep your dependecies clean. |
| 22:31.36 | somiaj | maxzor: there are ways to get around this (equivs) but you need to be careful about this if you want thigns to function. |
| 22:32.59 | teatime | you can also install the old version, alongside your current version |
| 22:33.18 | somiaj | I guess the jessie version works and it is secure. |
| 22:33.19 | MaxLanar | Hello, I am struggling with cron. What do I need for that simple command to work 'pactl set-sink-volume 0 20%'. What I get now is 'Failed to get sink information: No such entity'. |
| 22:33.37 | somiaj | it is a pain, most software should work jsut fine with libssl1.0.2 instead of libssl1.0.0 and just needs to be rebuilt (which isn't that bad) |
| 22:33.47 | somiaj | but when using thrid party software, be careful. |
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| 22:34.19 | somiaj | MaxLanar: don't expect cron to have any enviorment setup, such as $PATH, use full paths to all binaries run. |
| 22:34.55 | somiaj | MaxLanar: also don't exept it to have any pulse info setup, you will need to supply it all enviroment variables needed to acces pulse on your system. |
| 22:35.01 | maxzor | somehow yunohost needs jabber :< :) |
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| 22:36.31 | DexterF | hi |
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| 22:36.49 | nirakara | hi guys. just installed debian buster on a dell xps 9350. Chromium is crashing instantly when i start it. Here is the terminal output: https://dpaste.de/dYnZ). Can anyone help? I tried to cast to a chromecast which seems to have triggered this |
| 22:37.19 | MaxLanar | somiaj: what is the way to supply env variables ? Nothing of the stuff I found on the web seems to work. |
| 22:37.51 | somiaj | MaxLanar: I don't know pulse, so I'm unsure what it would need, but in general VAR1=foo VAR2=foo2 /full/path/to/binary options |
| 22:38.13 | Thedarkb-M90 | somiaj, How to I find my X40's key? |
| 22:38.19 | somiaj | MaxLanar: you just need a way to tell cron how to access pulseaudio, and as what user. cron just won't know your normal enviorment. |
| 22:38.38 | somiaj | Thedarkb-M90: what do you mean by key? |
| 22:39.38 | Thedarkb-M90 | <vergilzen> throw your ssh key on the xeon for your pentium |
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| 22:39.48 | Thedarkb-M90 | pinged the wrong person, sorry. |
| 22:39.51 | somiaj | Thedarkb-M90: you just create one if you don't have one. |
| 22:40.01 | MaxLanar | somiaj: I know that's what I need to do. I just don't how to do it :) |
| 22:40.01 | somiaj | Thedarkb-M90: this just makes it so you don't have to type in a password, it is optional. |
| 22:40.17 | Thedarkb-M90 | I'm getting "connection refused" when I try to SSH into it. |
| 22:40.18 | nirakara | further, I have tried deleting my profile in ~/.config/chromium/Default -- this allows Chromium to open again, but when I start to install extensions, it crashes again. |
| 22:40.23 | mutante | nirakara: how about starting with "chromium-browser --disable-extensions" |
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| 22:40.36 | somiaj | Thedarkb-M90: do you have an ssh server installed and running on the server? |
| 22:40.40 | Thedarkb-M90 | yeah. |
| 22:41.02 | somiaj | Thedarkb-M90: are you able to ssh to the server normally? |
| 22:41.07 | Thedarkb-M90 | â ssh.service - OpenBSD Secure Shell server |
| 22:41.08 | Thedarkb-M90 | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:41.08 | Thedarkb-M90 | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:41.08 | Thedarkb-M90 | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:41.08 | Thedarkb-M90 | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:41.08 | Thedarkb-M90 | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:41.08 | *** kick/#debian [Thedarkb-M90!~debhelper@unaffiliated/debhelper] by debhelper (flood) |
| 22:41.10 | nirakara | mutante: when I delete my profile and start it works, but does that mean I can't use uBlock Origin, Privacy Badger and HTTS Everywhere? |
| 22:41.16 | djp_ | i have 1gb of ram on my notebook. should i allocate 1gb or 2gb to the swap partition? |
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| 22:41.38 | Thedarkb-M90 | This channel has a low bar for what is or isn't a flood. |
| 22:41.41 | somiaj | djp_: really depends on your ussage, and if you want to use hibernation. |
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| 22:41.53 | mutante | nirakara: does it match https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/chromium-browser/+bug/1702501? |
| 22:41.54 | somiaj | Thedarkb-M90: that is flood, more than 3 lines should be pasted at paste.debian.net |
| 22:41.58 | Thedarkb-M90 | Anyway, I've never tried SSHing in on this machine before. |
| 22:42.07 | somiaj | Thedarkb-M90: anyways, can you ssh to it from other machines? |
| 22:42.09 | djp_ | somiaj: so hibernation i'd need 2gb right? |
| 22:42.18 | Thedarkb-M90 | Nope. |
| 22:42.36 | Oksana | I am trying to upgrade my laptop from Windows XP to dual-boot with Linux. So, I installed 64bit KDE Jessie from a USB stick, and then went to upgrade it to Stretch. Couldn't find a way to upgrade from Jessie to Stretch via GUI (Apper or Synaptic), so had to edit text file and replace all "jessie" |
| 22:42.37 | somiaj | djp_: at least as much as ram, but 2gb isn't that much for a browser these days. It should be fine though. |
| 22:42.51 | Oksana | By that time, Apper stopped working (aka, it sees updates, it offers to install them, but at the last possible moment it refuses because my user doesn't have permission to do it, or something), so I have to use Synaptic. And yes, my user is in sudoers group. |
| 22:42.51 | Oksana | with "stretch". |
| 22:42.55 | djp_ | somiaj: thanx |
| 22:43.09 | Oksana | When trying to upgrade with Synaptic, I see 1300+ upgrades, then glibc complains that kdm has to be restarted manually. First I refuse to upgrade glibc: it means that about 100 upgrades are installed, and about 1200+ upgrades are held back. |
| 22:43.29 | somiaj | Thedarkb-M90: there could be various things stoping remote machines from access the server on port 22 (The ssh port). Coudl be a firewall, network, routing, etc. |
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| 22:43.52 | Thedarkb-M90 | It's just on the lan though. |
| 22:43.54 | somiaj | Thedarkb-M90: you need to start at the server, see if you can 'ssh localhost' on it, and then 'ssh outsideip' on the server, after that check firewalls and network rounting between the machines. |
| 22:43.56 | nirakara | mutante: yes, disabling extensions seems to work. but I can't imagine browsing without an adblocker and privacy extensions |
| 22:44.21 | Thedarkb-M90 | Yeah, I can SSH into it from itself |
| 22:44.21 | somiaj | nirakara: update your extensions, reinstall them, maybe they are just corrupt (have you tried that)? |
| 22:44.53 | somiaj | Thedarkb-M90: on both local host and the outside ip. |
| 22:44.53 | memphisto | nirakara: try reading #1 post on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/chromium-browser/+bug/1702407 |
| 22:45.04 | Oksana | Then, on next attempt, I want to agree to upgrade glibc, by restarting kdm manually. Which means that when glibc question pops up, I go to a tty2, and sudo service kdm stop. Which, predictably, means that GUI disappears. Even when I sudo service kdm start, synaptic is running in background, not |
| 22:45.05 | Oksana | accessible. So I sudo pkill synaptic. |
| 22:45.06 | Thedarkb-M90 | not from outside IP. |
| 22:45.06 | nirakara | somiaj: I have deleted my entire profile; surely this is the same as deleting them? uBlock Origin, Privacy Badger and HTTS Everywhere are not "rare" extensions |
| 22:45.12 | somiaj | Thedarkb-M90: then it is a networking issue between the two machines, or you have something like fail2ban or denyhost installed blocking your connection. |
| 22:45.24 | Thedarkb-M90 | I have neither of those. |
| 22:45.25 | somiaj | nirakara: so after you reinstall them it breaks again? |
| 22:45.45 | nirakara | somiaj: as soon as i try to reinstall them, the browser crashes but its not consistent. sometimes i can get ublock origin installed, and it crashes whilst installing privacy badger |
| 22:45.59 | somiaj | ,v chromium |
| 22:46.00 | mutante | install just one at a time. find out which one actually breaks it |
| 22:46.00 | judd | Package: chromium on amd64 -- wheezy: 37.0.2062.120-1~deb7u1; wheezy-security: 37.0.2062.120-1~deb7u1; jessie: 57.0.2987.98-1~deb8u1; jessie-security: 57.0.2987.98-1~deb8u1; stretch: 62.0.3202.89-1~deb9u1; buster: 62.0.3202.89-1; stretch-proposed-updates: 63.0.3239.84-1~deb9u1; stretch-security: 63.0.3239.84-1~deb9u1; sid: 63.0.3239.84-1 |
| 22:46.08 | mutante | eh. ok |
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| 22:46.20 | nirakara | somiaj: indeed, but this whole thing seems to have been triggered by attempting to use the cast function in chromium |
| 22:46.32 | somiaj | nirakara: the version of chromium in buster is a bit outdated and might have insecure issues. Unsure if using the sid package would help you or not. |
| 22:46.38 | nirakara | mutante: will do. now it seems ublock, will check privacy badger first |
| 22:47.05 | nirakara | somiaj: i want to run relatively cutting edge but stable packages. is buster the right thing for me? |
| 22:47.17 | mutante | there is also Brave browser, it's based on Chrome and has HTTPSEverywhere and Anti-Tracking/AdBlocker by default / bundle |
| 22:47.20 | somiaj | nirakara: buster can be a wild ride, though for most it works. |
| 22:47.36 | nirakara | mutante: brave allows ads in >_< but yeah good enough for testing i suppose |
| 22:47.43 | mutante | cutting edge and stable are mutually exclusive |
| 22:47.55 | nirakara | whats the difference between testing and stable |
| 22:48.03 | somiaj | nirakara: stable + backports is most likely sufficent for most peoples needs. Newer version in linux aren't as drastic as they were in times past, and debian now provides backports for the most common things people need newer versions of. |
| 22:48.09 | nirakara | i read a nuance around...speed of updates? |
| 22:48.43 | somiaj | nirakara: stable is a frozen system ehat gets only security and grave bug fixes. As such it runs well and everything is known to work together. |
| 22:48.47 | nirakara | somiaj: so i should move to stretch? can i do that in buster by just changing /etc/apt/sources.list? |
| 22:48.56 | rant | nirakara: testing is a moving target where stable is frozen and only gets grave and security fixes |
| 22:49.05 | nirakara | i chose testing because i heard google is choosing testing :D |
| 22:49.08 | Oksana | When I start Synaptic again, it asks for dpkg -a --configure, which I do in tty2. When I start Synaptic again, it has broken packages, which I fix by reinstalling them. When there are no broken packages anymore, I request upgrade again. 1200+ updates, and strangely enough, glibc doesn't request |
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| 22:49.19 | rant | somiaj: you can't just go backwards due to the nature of the package system. you'd need to reinstall |
| 22:49.21 | somiaj | nirakara: backports allow you to get certain packages that are newer from debian. These packages don't have the testing/stablity or secuirty support the main stable packages do. But in general one should only use a few of these and they work just fine. |
| 22:49.32 | rant | nirakara: you can't just go backwards due to the nature of the package system. you'd need to reinstall |
| 22:49.37 | rant | somiaj: sorry :P |
| 22:49.41 | somiaj | nirakara: as rant tried to say, scripts are only designed to upgrade, reinstall is needed. |
| 22:49.48 | nirakara | so testing is not recommended as a daily driver? |
| 22:49.59 | nirakara | not for a server |
| 22:50.03 | mutante | i always have testing on my laptop and use chrome and it doesnt crash |
| 22:50.04 | nirakara | just a dev laptop |
| 22:50.10 | mutante | chromium, sorry |
| 22:50.12 | setuid | Is there a tool that will re-rationalize a set of package requests, into the smallest subset/meta package for an install? IOW, if I do "apt-get install xorg xfce-blah xfce-blort xfce-something-else", that can be rationalized into 'apt-get install xfce4-desktop' or something? |
| 22:50.22 | nirakara | mutane are you using ublock origin? |
| 22:50.26 | somiaj | nirakara: testing is the final step of the develoment branch, so it gets slow securty updates, packages can be broken, but they have a buffer of sid so they aren't as broken as sid (unstable). |
| 22:50.28 | teatime | Oksana: You should just be switching to a console and doing that upgrade with apt/apt-get/aptitude, instead of synaptic. |
| 22:50.29 | mutante | wait, i lied. don't listen to me, im stretch right now |
| 22:50.49 | rant | nirakara: testing/unstable is not recommended for normal daily or production use, no.. but for a desktop if you are an experienced user who knows how to manage it.. it can be used that way.. though its still not what we'd recommend as we only support stable here |
| 22:51.09 | Oksana | manual restart of kdm anymore (may or may not be related to glibc-bin asking about automatic restart of things and my positive reply). |
| 22:51.15 | somiaj | nirakara: you can check bug reports, you can see if the sid version fixes your problem. But stuff like this isn't uncommon in testing, and you may have to deal with other issues in teh future. |
| 22:51.27 | nirakara | wow. i wonder why Google chose testing for their distro |
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| 22:51.40 | mutante | Google? |
| 22:51.43 | nirakara | i guess they have "google level" resources too |
| 22:52.31 | rant | nirakara: well I din't know google had a distro.. but as you say if you have experienced team with resources they can help iron out a moving distro and make more stable and rapid releases of it. |
| 22:52.35 | somiaj | nirakara: testing isn't to bad for a user who wantes a moving target to keep more up to date, but it requires knowledge of both how debian works, and the software being used. If you want a well tested enviroment that wont' change and things are known to work well together. Use stable. |
| 22:52.58 | mutante | the more servers you have the smaller becomes the problem if one or a few of them crash every once in a while |
| 22:53.14 | nirakara | i run stable on my servers 100% |
| 22:53.16 | somiaj | nirakara: it isn't uncommon for thrid party (such as google) to take testing as a starting point to build their own distro. But they do test, fix and modify packages. based on debian distro's that use testing are using a 'modified testing' |
| 22:53.46 | nirakara | damn, it took me so long to set this system up |
| 22:53.55 | nirakara | is there no way to go buster --> stretch |
| 22:53.59 | somiaj | nope |
| 22:54.04 | Thedarkb-M90 | Got it working. |
| 22:54.12 | somiaj | you can continue to run buster, you may just have to deal with issues like this and lack of secuirty |
| 22:54.12 | rant | nirakara: for me these sorts of discussions all come down to your priorities. I'm a debian user that uses stable because I agree totally with our Social Contract and Why Debian documents, the freedom, stability, community, those things mean more to me than anything else. You'd have to decide for yourself if thats true for you. Using our testing/unstable branch limits your stability and your community |
| 22:54.18 | Thedarkb-M90 | Had the wrong IP. |
| 22:54.18 | rant | support, and using dirivitives does so even more |
| 22:54.36 | somiaj | nirakara: if you notice, the version of chromium you have is outdated and contains secirty issues that are fixed in both stable and sid. |
| 22:54.45 | nirakara | somiaj: lack of security is a no-no! |
| 22:55.00 | nirakara | ok, is there a way to get a list of installed packages and install them again when i install stretch |
| 22:55.08 | somiaj | nirakara: if you are okay with that, and okay with fixign things as they break, then testing maybe for you. If you want secuirty and stablity (at the cost of older packages that won't change) use stable. |
| 22:55.12 | somiaj | !aptitude clone |
| 22:55.13 | dpkg | To clone a Debian machine using aptitude (or install your favourite packages) use aptitude search --disable-columns -F%p '~i!~M!~v' > package_list; on the reference machine; xargs aptitude --schedule-only install < package_list; aptitude install; on the other machine. This preserves information about "automatically installed" packages that other methods do not. See also <reinstall>, <things to backup>, <debian clone>, <apt-clone>. |
| 22:55.15 | rant | nirakara: yes dpkg --get-selections > selections |
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| 22:55.35 | somiaj | though the package lists are different, don't try to use this list to driectly install on stretch, you'll cause problems. |
| 22:55.36 | rant | well the aptitude method works too :P |
| 22:56.07 | nirakara | somiaj: so i would need to go through it and edit package names? or is there a better way? |
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| 22:57.16 | somiaj | nirakara: most of the packages are auto installed anyways, I would just focus on the names of the main software packages you use. |
| 22:57.35 | linuxthefish | hi, why does cinnamon always freeze for ages when I change the brightness on my laptop? also I can't use the keyboard until I press the menu in the bottom left and type something! |
| 22:57.46 | nirakara | somiaj: right. thanks |
| 22:57.49 | somiaj | nirakara: you could go through and edit the package names that are in the list and not in stretch if you wanted to be more automatic, but I would jsut reinstall the packages I needed. |
| 22:58.09 | linuxthefish | with xfce or in console I don't have this issue, it's just cinnamon-settings-daemon! |
| 22:58.12 | rant | nirakara: somiaj in that respect aptitude also keeps track of auto-installed and you could just make a list of only those packages marked manual |
| 22:59.51 | rant | it used to be that sort of data only existed if you used aptitude for installing but now I think all our package utilites use centralized logs and dbs.. but I've not experimented much with them in recent years |
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| 23:03.45 | Oksana | teatime : Thank you. I just happen think that since GUI exists, then everything should be doable via GUI. Including upgrades from one release to another. I think I have successfully upgraded to stretch by now, even though it has taken three or four attempts to do so. |
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| 23:04.36 | Oksana | And ideally, questions to user would be displayed in GUI, too, not in ncurses dialog. |
| 23:05.18 | Oksana | Further on, I have installed sawfish window manager, and am trying to use it. Without particular success so far. |
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| 23:06.21 | teatime | Oksana: by killing the gui and synaptic half-way through the upgrade, I mean, you realize why/how that broke the upgrade, right? |
| 23:06.35 | setuid | Asked another way: is there a way I can check a handful of packages, for the minimum union of deps to install? |
| 23:07.34 | teatime | setuid: looking at your original question, I don't know an automatic way to do that, no |
| 23:08.16 | setuid | teatime: Right, so I've got this monstrous bootstrap and it installs a large number of packages in a single apt-get -y install pipeline, I'd rather pare that down to a smaller subset that satisfies the same result. |
| 23:08.16 | teatime | setuid: you can look at reverse depends for a package with apt-rdepends --reverse or apt-cache --rdepends (in those two "rdepends" one r means recursive and one means reverse) |
| 23:08.23 | setuid | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:08.30 | jhutchins | Oksana: Those of us with a lot of experience with computers much prefer the cli for administrative tasks. |
| 23:08.34 | rant | setuid: you gotta install all the deps.. suggests/recommends are the optional portions.. deps are what it took to build it and in nearly all but maybe a few narrow cases where you may be able to get away with runing it with errors, a package wont work without all its dependencies without being rebuilt without being compiled against those deps |
| 23:10.15 | setuid | rant: What I mean is, let's say I install 'foo' and foo requires 'bar', so I install 'foo' and 'bar', but other-foo would automatically drag in 'foo' and 'bar' by just installing 'other-foo'. Currently, the code does 'apt-get install foo bar other-foo', when I'd like to just 'apt-get install other-foo' and have it pull in 'foo' and 'bar', withotu explicitly naming them. |
| 23:10.27 | rant | setuid: if you are merely trying to make yourself a simple way to install your customized setup you can simple build a package list or a metapackage of your own based on what you installed |
| 23:11.22 | teatime | setuid: I don't know of an automatic way, no. You can manually figure it out, is all. |
| 23:11.22 | rant | setuid: that is already how the system works.. you dont have to name all dependencies, the package manager automatically resolves them |
| 23:11.39 | teatime | rant: he's not being super clear but you're misunderstanding his request. |
| 23:11.47 | setuid | rant: It's more for ease of package management on the developer side, vs. the package manager itself. |
| 23:11.54 | rant | teatime: yes I suspected both of those |
| 23:11.56 | setuid | rant: build-essential cdbs git jq libffi-dev libldap2-dev libmysqlclient-dev libpq-dev libssl-dev libxml2-dev libxslt1-dev make pbuilder python-all-dev python-configobj python-dev python-mock python-pip python-stdeb python-support ruby-dev |
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| 23:12.25 | setuid | So those packages, is there a subset that would, via dependency resolution, result in the same packages being installed, but by naming _less_ packages to install? |
| 23:12.32 | rant | setuid: for development purposes we have apt-get build-dep |
| 23:13.42 | teatime | setuid: is this related to cloning the packages installed on one machine onto a second? |
| 23:13.55 | setuid | teatime: Nope, just trying to reduce the list to something smaller, easier to manage. |
| 23:13.55 | rant | if I want to build hedgewars I dont have to figure out and install all its build dependencies like haskell, etc.. I just apt-get build-dep hedgewars |
| 23:13.58 | teatime | setuid: you can use deborphan to show "all installed packages not depended on by another installed package" |
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| 23:14.41 | setuid | teatime: that only works if they're currently installed though |
| 23:14.48 | setuid | Ii was thinking of using debtree and parsing the subsets |
| 23:15.12 | setuid | It's a one-time thing, just to reinject the smaller array of packages back into the bootstrap, and commit that smaller list to git |
| 23:15.27 | teatime | setuid: there might be an automatic way I don't know. |
| 23:15.43 | teatime | setuid: maybe an aptitude search could help. it can do some fairly complex stuff. |
| 23:15.57 | teatime | setuid: but I feel like even if there's a fairly straightforward way, it involves at least a little scripting |
| 23:16.03 | rant | this seems like the common problem of zooming in to far on your issue and you should probably zoom out and give us the big picture of what you're doing |
| 23:16.32 | rant | because building your own custom distro/install or whatever has many well established tools and methods if thats what you're doing |
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| 23:17.04 | setuid | rant: Not doing anything like that at all. We're bootstrapping some Linux vagrant VMs, and into those VMs, we install some packages needed to deploy OpenStack |
| 23:17.20 | teatime | rant: he has a long 'apt-get install a b c d e f g' in his bootstrap script, and some are duplicates because say d & f already are depends of b |
| 23:17.35 | setuid | I'm trying to keep that list of packages that we need, to a smaller subset, by picking the union of those packages, which satisfies the same install result |
| 23:17.49 | setuid | Right, teatime has it |
| 23:18.03 | rant | I dont understand how you're getting this redundancy to begin with |
| 23:18.09 | teatime | rant: technical debt |
| 23:18.28 | setuid | developers tend to just append to the list, adding what they want over time |
| 23:18.34 | rant | ugh |
| 23:18.39 | setuid | vs. re-rationalizing their needs with the existing packages |
| 23:18.54 | rant | so in other words you're trying to fix stupid :P |
| 23:19.10 | jhutchins | setuid: It's not going to do multiple installs. You may simplify your command, but that's the only advantage. |
| 23:19.11 | setuid | That's what we all get paid the big bucks for in the end, isn't it? :D |
| 23:19.22 | rant | sounds to me like the real solution is to get them to co-op better and do things right |
| 23:19.33 | setuid | jhutchins: Right, I recognize that apt will do the magic, but I'm trying to keep the human-readable list of packages down to a minimum |
| 23:20.06 | rant | if you're merely trying to elminate redundancy thats a trivial running it through sort -u |
| 23:20.20 | setuid | it's not duplicity, it's dependency overlap |
| 23:20.28 | setuid | It's a different problem that sort wouldn't solve |
| 23:20.50 | setuid | Example: xfce4-desktop installs something like 900 packages on a 'bare' system |
| 23:21.08 | setuid | I could install that 1 package, or I could explicitly name 900 packages |
| 23:21.12 | rant | yes.. I see that.. and the easy way is still to make the devs be better developers and not much shit up for others |
| 23:21.18 | rant | muck* |
| 23:21.35 | jhutchins | True, and you have the possibility that package f pulls in package b as a recommends or dependency. |
| 23:21.54 | setuid | That's fair, but if I was going to give the devs tools to look at their needs, to keep reducing as they add needs, how do I do that? |
| 23:22.13 | jhutchins | Most dependencies are things like libraries that you wouldn't install manually to begin with though. |
| 23:22.29 | setuid | jhutchins: The list I pasted above, is the exact list in this specific case |
| 23:22.52 | setuid | jhutchins: build-essential cdbs git jq libffi-dev libldap2-dev libmysqlclient-dev libpq-dev libssl-dev libxml2-dev libxslt1-dev make pbuilder python-all-dev python-configobj python-dev python-mock python-pip python-stdeb python-support ruby-dev |
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| 23:23.08 | setuid | So given those packages, is there any parent/meta package that would include those as deps, so I can reduce that list |
| 23:23.25 | teatime | setuid: if you just look at which of those are in build-essential, you'll get a few of them (make, anyway) |
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| 23:23.31 | jhutchins | Well, there you have a huge meta-package in build-essential |
| 23:23.44 | jhutchins | make is redundant. |
| 23:23.53 | teatime | setuid: I've done this sort of thing many times, but just by a combination of manually, and being familiar w/ a lot of packages already |
| 23:24.04 | setuid | teatime: *nod* |
| 23:24.30 | jhutchins | The dev files are probably not going to pull dependencies. |
| 23:24.34 | setuid | apt-rdepends build-essential then? |
| 23:24.42 | teatime | setuid: just apt show build-essential |
| 23:24.47 | Oksana | teatime : I realise that sudo pkill synaptic was the reason dpkg -a --configure was required, and some packages were broken. I also realise it was the only way forward after synaptic was stuck in the clouds, without anchor to GUI. I do not see what glibc expected me to do, as in, how I should have |
| 23:25.04 | setuid | apt-cache show? |
| 23:25.19 | setuid | er, n/m, you said 'apt show' and my brain typed 'apt-show' |
| 23:25.20 | teatime | Oksana: I don't know either. The right way to upgrade dists is to follow the instructions in the release notes. Which would never tell you to use synaptic. |
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| 23:26.19 | rant | setuid: if you were to remove these redundancies you could introduce problems like with those deps you showed there is a real circle jerk around the python-all-dev python-dev lib-python-dev all which ultimately just get you currently in stable libpython2.7-dev however those redundancies address the issue say if you switch at some point to a future release where its not python2.7 it will go through that |
| 23:26.25 | rant | clusterfuck and eventually get you the current python version |
| 23:26.32 | jhutchins | You can't even do all admin tasks with the GUI on Windows. |
| 23:26.45 | jhutchins | OSX you probably can. |
| 23:26.58 | jhutchins | No, there are some that require CLI. |
| 23:27.16 | Oksana | shakes head |
| 23:27.17 | Oksana | manually restarted kdm without killing GUI? Or should I have just ignored glibc's warning, and told the glibc upgrade to proceed forward without attempting to manually restart kdm? |
| 23:27.27 | rant | setuid: its for that reason why we have a cruft of metapackages in any given debian release to get deps from older versions to resolve to their newer equivalents |
| 23:27.27 | teatime | setuid: rant actually makes a good point; there are times I would specify a redundant set of deps, because they may not always be redunant in the future. |
| 23:27.28 | setuid | rant: Yes, and insert the pip/easy_install madness when we move to py3 |
| 23:28.14 | teatime | setuid: also your list is not really allll that long, I humbly suggest you're perhaps being a perfectionist in a non-productive way (which I fall victim to too often) |
| 23:28.43 | Oksana | Of course, I have never had to upgrade from one release to another on my mobile. But at least, it provides GUI to manage, edit, disable and enable, add and remove, repositories. No need to edit text file in command line. |
| 23:29.19 | teatime | Oksana: CLI is a 1st-class interface on *nix. Not so much elsewhere. If you don't want to do CLI, don't do *nix. |
| 23:29.30 | teatime | Oksana: in fact on *nix it's the GUI that's a 2nd-class citizen. |
| 23:30.03 | teatime | Oksana: Synaptic was invented by Ubuntu; Debian was happy to exist for decades w/o graphical package management :) |
| 23:30.13 | rant | teatime: its called being an idealist I believe :P |
| 23:30.22 | Oksana | nods |
| 23:30.24 | teatime | Sure. I get that in a perfect world, it should work. |
| 23:30.30 | teatime | Maybe we'll get there eventually. |
| 23:30.55 | rant | but yeah while I begin to understand your problem a whole lot better, especially when using all these complex python deps you want that redundancy because its going to keep stuff from breaking at some point in the future |
| 23:31.33 | jhutchins | I belive the large majority of Linux systems don't even have a GUI. |
| 23:31.47 | rant | setuid: an interim and less destructive solution is to maybe use equivs or something simple to make your own package that depends on many others.. so you can simplfiy things for yourself |
| 23:32.26 | setuid | rant: that's where I was probably heading next, not as an exercie in bikeshedding, but trying to reduce the overhead of managing these deps |
| 23:33.23 | teatime | Oksana: but, we do try to make our documentation "production quality", and like I said release notes would never tell you to dist upgrade with synaptic. |
| 23:33.38 | teatime | Oksana: just because the tool exists doesn't imply Debian says it should work everything. |
| 23:33.56 | rant | if the look of it is all you want to simplfy then pile another meta on top.. heh.. removing them is only going to break at some point in the future |
| 23:33.59 | rant | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:35.16 | rant | I can't offhand think of something more than python where this is very important because not only do oyu have a ton of deps but the whole 2.7 -3.x migration is on the horizon |
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| 23:37.23 | Oksana | In short, release notes say that upgrading from jessie to stretch requires lots and lots of typing in CLI. https://www.debian.org/releases/stretch/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html |
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| 23:37.48 | teatime | Oksana: yeah. happens. |
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| 23:39.04 | teatime | Oksana: you called it "my mobile", if it's like a phone w/ a crappy keyboard, you can ssh into it from somewhere w/ a decent keyboard. |
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| 23:44.39 | rant | or use a bt keyboard or synergy |
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| 23:45.59 | rant | I've done the synergy thing before.. just setup the mobile on a gorilla pod with a clamp for the mobile attached, and run synergy and control it with my laptop's input devices |
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