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| 01:07.37 | Wormy_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:08.12 | The_Randomness | idk, I don't know enough to argue either way, but I'm leaning more towards drodo |
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| 09:34.21 | Liquid_Ink | Hey |
| 09:45.17 | Ghelae | Hello. |
| 09:46.12 | Liquid_Ink | How are you? |
| 09:46.28 | Ghelae | I'm okay; how about you? |
| 09:46.39 | Liquid_Ink | Meh. |
| 09:46.48 | Liquid_Ink | I feel oddly humiliated and vulnerable, but nothing has happened |
| 09:56.17 | Ghelae | Well that is somewhat strange. |
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| 15:15.47 | The_Randomness | Ghelaptop: Saw your discussion thing about species and stuff. While I would have to think about this more, and I can't currently do much since I'm on my phone, the idea of having this start on Earth is interesting |
| 15:16.05 | The_Randomness | As for the species stuff, I'd suggest no more than two or three. |
| 15:17.42 | Ghelaptop | Most of what we discussed was based on it not being Earth, but that was mainly a result of Imp and I talking about what we might call not!Earth. |
| 15:18.09 | The_Randomness | Right |
| 15:19.00 | Ghelaptop | So what it needs is for people to express their thoughts on whether it should be Earth or not. |
| 15:19.19 | Ghelaptop | One argument against it being Earth is that we're likely to end up with France being a major superpower again. :P |
| 15:19.27 | The_Randomness | Heh |
| 15:20.54 | The_Randomness | I think I'll advocate for having it not be Earth, since I've seen too many botched attempts at extrapolating the future of Earth already in other places |
| 15:30.05 | The_Randomness | So, with not!humans being one species, that leaves one or two others |
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| 15:33.24 | The_Randomness | Or even just not!humans |
| 15:33.34 | Ghelaptop | Wormy and Imp discussed uplifted dolphins (or not!dolphins). |
| 15:34.02 | The_Randomness | Intriguing, but I personally want to stay away from uplifting and such |
| 15:34.03 | Ghelaptop | Also cephalopods and worms. |
| 15:34.55 | The_Randomness | I would prefer to keep things close to humanoid for some of the reasons you mentioned. |
| 15:36.32 | Ghelaptop | By "uplifting and such", does that also include modification of humans (or not!humans)? That's likely to first be used to adapt people to new environments e.g. low-gravity and hard-to-terraform worlds. |
| 15:37.18 | The_Randomness | Yes, I am also opposed to such significant modifications |
| 15:37.37 | Ghelaptop | Okay. Why is that? |
| 15:40.26 | Ghelaptop | I suppose if they're adapted to different environments then that would make direct interaction less feasible. Although that's more of an argument in favour of them not playing a major part in stories rather than them not existing. |
| 15:40.47 | The_Randomness | While I am not opposed to the use of genetic engineering in any way to do things like prevent/eliminate things like genetic defects or help treat diseases, I believe that adapting humans to extremely different environments lies outside of its scope, and starts to get into the area of escaping the limits of the human form, which is an area I dislike. |
| 15:41.45 | Ghelaptop | Ah. So an ethical distaste for the concept, instead of an argument on its plausibility. |
| 15:54.33 | Wormy_away | Random doesn't like the many irreational ideas harboured in transhumanism, though it may be possible to make fiction under paradigms of modification while avoiding or criticising those themes. |
| 15:55.13 | Wormy_away | (Despite reading transhumanist fiction I don't like some of those themes either) |
| 15:57.09 | The_Randomness | Yeah, you may be right there |
| 15:57.26 | The_Randomness | I'll be back in about an hour |
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| 17:39.37 | The_Randomness | Ghelaway: I should have been more explicit earlier. I dislike it since it dips into transhumanist beliefs, which is something I disagree with (to put it mildly), and I question its plausibility as well. |
| 17:43.00 | Wormy_ | I think you would like David Deutsch's book, the Beginning of Infinity. At the end of the book, he argues we are "Universal Constructors" in our quest for knowledge. Thus, there will be no singularity because we will always have the creative and critical faculties to keep up with machines. Essentially all Universal Constructors would be Turing Complete. Unless something or some understanding was denied by the laws of physics, it wo |
| 17:43.45 | Wormy_ | That is incredibly more optimistic than anything going through popular transhumanist circles |
| 17:44.03 | The_Randomness | I think your message got cut off |
| 17:44.18 | Wormy_ | Where does it end? |
| 17:44.46 | The_Randomness | Right after "laws of physics" |
| 17:44.56 | Wormy_ | *Unless something or some understanding was denied by the laws of physics, it would be a matter of knowing how. |
| 17:45.12 | The_Randomness | Ok |
| 17:45.20 | Wormy_ | to do some physical action or understand some process |
| 17:46.04 | Wormy_ | So what do I mean when it comes to transhumasnism? Superintelligent AI are supernatural, and go against what we understand about knowledge and computing. |
| 17:46.27 | The_Randomness | Yeah, that stuff is definitely silly. |
| 17:47.46 | Wormy_ | Also transhumanist is somewhat self-refuting. It is trying to imagine some way of being beyond human. But that very curiosity is as human as it gets. |
| 17:48.14 | Wormy_ | They are my beefs with transhumanism |
| 17:48.46 | The_Randomness | As is the anthropomorphic stuff you showed me yesterday from OA. If we have the ability to significantly modify humans to that extent, I kind of fear that we'll start to veer into "transcending the human form." I want to keep my hands as free of transhumanism as I can. |
| 17:48.58 | The_Randomness | a bit late, but oh well |
| 17:49.09 | The_Randomness | Typing on my phone is a little slow |
| 17:49.38 | Wormy_ | Speaking of the Super Collab universe though, there's a positive outcome from having modified forms |
| 17:49.55 | Wormy_ | Because it gives more users a chance to create things in the tiny setting we are starting out with. |
| 17:50.00 | The_Randomness | Modified forms in what way? |
| 17:50.33 | Wormy_ | Genetic or cybernetic modification. |
| 17:51.08 | The_Randomness | I am fine with both of those to the extent I mentioned. |
| 17:51.52 | Wormy_ | Right I see |
| 17:52.25 | The_Randomness | I don't think that you can ever get a human to breathe unassisted on Mars, for example. |
| 17:52.34 | Wormy_ | I wondered if you was opposing all of it. |
| 17:52.59 | Wormy_ | Of course not |
| 17:53.31 | Wormy_ | But we could have semi-sentient swarm robots colonising a Mars-like planet |
| 17:53.49 | The_Randomness | Right, but that's different. |
| 17:54.09 | Ghelaway | I've just come back to visit before dinner so I don't have much time to comment... |
| 17:54.28 | Ghelaway | ...but yes, a lot of transhumanist ideas seem both unfounded and unlikely, such as OA-style singularities. |
| 17:54.30 | Wormy_ | I don't think it is under Ghelae''s broad definition. |
| 17:54.57 | The_Randomness | I also think that uplifting species is absurd as well, but you probably are right there Wormulon |
| 17:55.28 | Wormy_ | I don't believe in singularities, but there are certainly cultural enlightenments that make one more dynamic in their quest for knowledge |
| 17:56.18 | Wormy_ | I tyhink uplifting species may be unethical, but not impossible. |
| 17:56.36 | The_Randomness | True, but likely on very large timescales |
| 17:56.39 | Wormy_ | And also maybe unnecessary |
| 17:56.45 | The_Randomness | Yeah |
| 17:57.37 | Wormy_ | One could use genetically modified organisms that have a tendency to behave in a useful way. I've already mentioned worms, how about worms that bring traces of mineral deposits to the surface? Much like certain plants do. |
| 17:58.10 | The_Randomness | Yeah, that's fine |
| 18:00.40 | Wormy_ | There's a probably a way we can apply these ideas without encouraging transhumanistic beliefs. |
| 18:02.21 | The_Randomness | I'd say keep it to the level you just mentioned, and then have genetic modifications and cybernetics be useful, but not so much so that they're inherently better than what you generally have |
| 18:04.04 | Wormy_ | Agreed |
| 18:05.20 | The_Randomness | Like, cybernetics being useful for prosthetics and such, but they're not any better than the organic equivalent |
| 18:05.47 | The_Randomness | Or for genetic engineering, keeping it restricted to gene therapy and eliminating genetic defects |
| 18:06.03 | Wormy_ | Well, sometimes certain things would be superior. Its as simple as paper being a better record for memory than chinese whispers. |
| 18:06.32 | The_Randomness | Of course |
| 18:06.33 | Wormy_ | But I think in such cases, we could show that these modifications are still fallible |
| 18:06.48 | Wormy_ | and have limitations of their own |
| 18:07.27 | The_Randomness | Yeah |
| 18:08.16 | Wormy_ | Remember that small nation I have a concept for that sped up their perception of time by slowing their processing power? Well that brings on their own world of problems, namely that any faster-brained people could easily pirate their planet or any nu,mber of scenarios |
| 18:08.37 | Wormy_ | I also thought that given the advent of FTL technology when it comes, their whole goal becomes useless |
| 18:09.03 | Wormy_ | And their society is at risk of crumbling (because I imagined a lower slave class that protected them) |
| 18:10.47 | The_Randomness | Personally, I'd stay away from things as drastic as slowing down perception of time and stuff |
| 18:11.05 | Wormy_ | Maybe for the beginning of the project |
| 18:11.58 | Wormy_ | My reasoning for it, is that one could introduce space opera tropes to a small STL civilisation |
| 18:12.13 | The_Randomness | What do you mean by that? |
| 18:12.59 | Wormy_ | It would reduce the time delay between interstellar distances |
| 18:13.15 | The_Randomness | Right, but I'm asking about the tropes |
| 18:13.44 | Wormy_ | Because space opera tropes pretty much all involve FTL travel. |
| 18:13.52 | Wormy_ | and communications |
| 18:14.16 | Wormy_ | Though now I'm starting to think about it, it might have a serious flaw. |
| 18:17.15 | The_Randomness | What's that? |
| 18:17.23 | Wormy_ | Slower computation I guess means less computation, so interstellar travel would have to be slower than I imagined. So it might eventually balance out in a sense that the experience of time waiting for information from other worlds might balance out as the same. |
| 18:19.11 | Wormy_ | I'm still trying to work it out |
| 18:19.47 | Wormy_ | No I think its fine actually |
| 18:20.25 | Wormy_ | nvm that |
| 18:21.55 | Wormy_ | I agree this certainly shouldn't be the starting conditions for our society. Because it implies too many constraints on their culture, society and so on. |
| 18:21.55 | Wormy_ | It would need authoritarian measures for a start |
| 18:22.26 | Wormy_ | This isn't my job anyway |
| 18:27.37 | The_Randomness | Also, why have adapted colonists when you'll have to make specialized colonies anyway? |
| 18:28.24 | Wormy_ | Indeed |
| 18:31.11 | The_Randomness | It's presumably much, much easier to refine colony designs than it is to make massive modifications to a species to fit the environment |
| 18:32.30 | Wormy_ | I'm not sure on that presumption. It could be that biological or cybernetic adaptation will become, |
| 18:32.40 | Wormy_ | posted too soon |
| 18:34.08 | Wormy_ | I'm not sure on that presumption, but its true given our present situation. It could be that biological or cybernetic adaptation will become very easy and efficient to implement (what I'm imagining its not something as extreme as humans breathing the Martian atmosphere, mind) |
| 18:34.27 | The_Randomness | I suppose |
| 18:34.37 | Wormy_ | It would require a society more liberal in the approach |
| 18:36.55 | The_Randomness | Yeah, but then how would you deal with people coming in from other colonies without those specializations? |
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| 18:38.06 | Wormy__ | It would require a society more liberal in the approach. But I agree for the most part, its not absolutely necessary, as we humans are pretty good at changing the environment to suite us. |
| 18:38.33 | Wormy__ | Sorry if I';m droning on a bit about a subject you probably don't like. |
| 18:39.17 | The_Randomness | Did you get my last message? |
| 18:39.44 | Wormy__ | Could you post it again? |
| 18:40.43 | The_Randomness | How do you deal with people from other colonies without those specializations? |
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| 18:41.48 | Wormy__ | If the modifications are extreme in that they are necessary for survival, not comfort of extra abilities, I guess they would need habitation of their own to support them. |
| 18:41.56 | Wormy__ | If the modifications are extreme in that they are necessary for survival, not comfort of extra abilities, I guess they would need habitation of their own to support them. |
| 18:42.09 | Wormy__ | *not comfort or |
| 18:42.35 | The_Randomness | That was strange, hopefully I didn't miss anything from the past minute or so |
| 18:42.44 | Wormy__ | Nah I reposted |
| 18:42.49 | The_Randomness | Ah |
| 18:42.55 | Wormy__ | The latter of which makes in inefficient I guess |
| 18:43.01 | The_Randomness | Yeah, I got both |
| 18:43.11 | Wormy__ | I think we've reached a good idea what "Extent" could mean when it comes to modification |
| 18:43.18 | The_Randomness | Yeah |
| 18:44.18 | Wormy__ | We've been talking about this quite a bit, shall I post it as an issue? |
| 18:44.31 | The_Randomness | Maybe, your call |
| 18:44.41 | The_Randomness | Actually, yes |
| 18:45.01 | Wormy__ | I'll do it in a bit, right now I've got some studying and revision to do. |
| 18:45.08 | The_Randomness | I don't think modifications to colonists are necessary, or very practical |
| 18:45.10 | The_Randomness | That's fine |
| 18:45.28 | Wormy__ | This Super-Collab is proving very distracting |
| 18:45.38 | The_Randomness | lol |
| 18:45.40 | Wormy__ | (not aiming that you) |
| 18:45.47 | The_Randomness | I know |
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| 18:49.00 | The_Randomness | I don't mind, this is actually giving me a reason to actively participate in the wiki community again |
| 18:49.52 | Wormy__ | To summarise for Ghel, bodily modification for the survival of colonists may will be inefficient in the long term for a colony. But the technology and possibly culture makes such things possible, so biological modification may be useful for comfort, extra abilities, or creating useful behaviours in certain species. |
| 18:50.17 | The_Randomness | Ok |
| 18:50.29 | The_Randomness | And I think here we've outlined the extent of it |
| 18:51.40 | Wormy__ | In the long term, if the point is to build an economic hub for the empire, you will want to move lots of people to and from that colony. And it would better to adapt the environment with habitats or even engineer the planet rather than engineering the people. |
| 18:51.52 | Ghel | In the long term, sure, most planets could be terraformed (and any that can't is in such a bad state, like the Martian atmosphere, that adaptations aren't going to help in the first place). |
| 18:52.24 | Ghel | Planets with different gravities aren't going to be so easily engineerable, however. |
| 18:52.45 | Ghel | But then, you probably aren't going to need to colonise many planets like that in the first place. |
| 18:53.07 | The_Randomness | I'm personally doubtful of the practicality of terraforming, considering the cost and timescale associated with it |
| 18:53.40 | Wormy__ | Well its a desirable long term goal, since an interstellar society is a long lasting thing. |
| 18:53.53 | The_Randomness | I suppose |
| 18:54.18 | Ghel | If rather than terraforming you're making domed arcologies, then you aren't going to need environmental adaptations in the first place. |
| 18:55.19 | Wormy__ | If habitat building becomes popular, I suppose a civilisation could develop that way. In fact thats how it is with the DCP. Most DCP citizens live in space habitats, stations and ships. |
| 18:56.13 | The_Randomness | Yeah, and adjusting habitats for their conditions is much easier than adjusting a planet for a species or vice versa |
| 18:58.42 | Wormy__ | http://www.bergoiata.org/fe/SciFi2/jw%20Year%20V%20Sci-Fi%20Art%20Wall%20079%20-%20Tim%20White.jpg |
| 19:00.10 | Wormy__ | Oh its actually part of a bigger image http://www.graphicine.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/tim-white_7.png |
| 19:00.32 | Ghel | But I think my original idea when mentioning genetic engineering was more about cosmetic alterations than anything transhumanist. For example, if people wanted to include cat-people, I'd think it to be more sensible that a group of humans modified themselves to look feline than that there would be feline humanoids and humans coincidentally evolving near to each other in space and time. |
| 19:01.04 | Ghel | Not that that's easy, of course. |
| 19:01.26 | The_Randomness | Yeah, I think that sort of thing is silly personally |
| 19:05.32 | The_Randomness | Wormy__: nice little piece of artwork |
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| 19:07.29 | Wormy__ | Ioe 70's sci-fi art |
| 19:07.43 | Wormy__ | *love |
| 19:07.43 | Wormy__ | That's Tim White I think |
| 19:08.29 | Wormy__ | I think we need a balance of plausibility but also creativity |
| 19:08.54 | Wormy__ | Otherwise it won't be fun for non-hard sci-fi users. |
| 19:09.00 | The_Randomness | I suppose, but I don't think we should have more than two. |
| 19:10.12 | Wormy__ | I'm open to there being such modified "races" because it gives more users an opportunity to create things for the starter condition. |
| 19:11.04 | The_Randomness | Unfortunately I'm a bit more of a hardass than you :P |
| 19:13.44 | Wormy__ | Hardass in science fiction? Or hard-ass on people? |
| 19:14.03 | Wormy__ | I'm less hard-arse on people, yes |
| 19:14.25 | Wormy__ | I myself would be happier with everything being hard science fiction |
| 19:15.48 | The_Randomness | Could you explain my point of view to Imperios? I need to go |
| 19:20.12 | Wormy__ | Ghel: https://youtu.be/fKb1ej2HenU?t=13m34s |
| 19:20.34 | Wormy__ | More of a magical world trying to understand ours |
| 19:21.55 | Ghel | "They enchant a cylindrical container with explosion magic" |
| 19:23.10 | Wormy__ | I suppose that's a start |
| 19:25.20 | Wormy__ | I'm reminded actually of this young man who was in an uncontacted tribe |
| 19:25.51 | Wormy__ | They had witnessed aircraft and believed it was white people's dead spirits being sent to heaven. |
| 19:27.18 | Wormy__ | The thing that disappoints me about this show is that we've had no JDF vs. mage battles yet |
| 19:33.49 | Ghel | Wormy__: Would it be helpful to put a select few of the things Random said onto #sporewiki so people can get an idea as to his point of view? |
| 19:34.21 | Wormy__ | Yeah sorry, I've just finished eating |
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| 22:05.28 | The_Randomness | Wormy__: Can you give me a quick summary of what I've missed? |
| 22:05.37 | Wormy__ | I can try |
| 22:05.56 | Wormy__ | Unfortunately I timed out a few times so I'm working from memory |
| 22:06.52 | Wormy__ | We were struggling to reach a consensus about whether we have a small region of space, multiple species in that region, and humans. We came to realise that quite a few of the users felt like they couldn't have any significant contribution |
| 22:07.24 | The_Randomness | How so? |
| 22:08.59 | Wormy__ | Just disagreements and lack of interest across our different knowledge bases. Charles has an idea that we instead create a system that fosters our differences. So we go for multiple species (there is no fair way to decide on a main member species for one empire to start with) |
| 22:09.22 | Wormy__ | And that means enlarging the volume of space we are dealing with |
| 22:09.47 | The_Randomness | How significantly so? |
| 22:10.55 | Wormy__ | Enough for a small pool of sentient species we can share. |
| 22:11.31 | Wormy__ | Charles thinks we cam keep things consistent by establishing a space federation, possibly something that existed from the beginning. |
| 22:11.43 | Ghel | How large the space needs to be depends on how many indepdently-evolved species people want to make. For all we know everyone might want to use only two or three. |
| 22:11.56 | The_Randomness | Yeah, that needs to be established first |
| 22:12.06 | Wormy__ | Makes sense |
| 22:13.22 | The_Randomness | I suggest we discuss that first |
| 22:13.27 | The_Randomness | I'm fine with two or three |
| 22:17.30 | Wormy__ | I'd rather we not have too many |
| 22:17.38 | Wormy__ | Just a small number like that |
| 22:17.48 | The_Randomness | yeah |
| 22:26.22 | The_Randomness | Just from thinking about it a little bit while making this quick graph, I wholly disagree with the idea of a "private space" |
| 22:27.36 | The_Randomness | Like, what's the point of the collab then if you have this area that's "private?" |
| 22:28.06 | Wormy__ | Its private to create, but once its created, I believe everything is shared |
| 22:28.28 | The_Randomness | Oh, alright, that's a little better |
| 22:28.28 | Wormy__ | I dunno, I was under the impression nothing was wholly owned by a particular user |
| 22:28.47 | Wormy__ | Might want to ask Charles about it |
| 22:29.32 | Ghel | I think the idea is that there's freedom to write about the goings-on on individual planets. Of course, it can't contradict the community consensus about the larger setting. |
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| 23:06.21 | Wormy__ | hi |
| 23:09.54 | Liquid_Ink | Hey |
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| 23:30.16 | The_Randomness | Wormy_: Need a link to the channel we're discussing the collab stuff in? |
| 23:31.35 | Wormy_ | I don't thanks |
