| 00:01.01 | Cyrannian | Drom seems like a nice guy |
| 00:13.19 | Wormymcwormy | indeed |
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| 01:13.31 | quark8_ | :( bye. |
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| 08:35.23 | *** topic/#Cyrannus is Official GigaConflict Channel || http://spore.wikia.com/wiki/Fiction:Cyrannus_Galaxy || All conversations are logged to http://ibot.rikers.org/%23cyrannus/ Lines starting with spaces are not logged. Logs are updated daily. |
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| 18:40.34 | Ghelae | Hello. |
| 18:41.11 | Wormy | hi |
| 18:42.25 | Wormy | Ghelae: I have some more research into the processes driving emergence, involving thermodynamics on large scales. |
| 18:42.39 | Ghelae | Okay. |
| 18:43.23 | Wormy | Should I say self-organised complexity? Emergence is a very general term.. |
| 18:43.51 | Ghelae | Use whatever term you like. :P |
| 18:44.30 | Ghelae | But self-organisation is more precice, as opposed to simple emergent phenomena such as basic chemistry and materials science. |
| 18:48.39 | Wormy | I think the total measured entropy of a system is emergent. As long as the molecules in say, a kettle of boiling water. On the reductionist scope, we know where each molecule is and how it is moving. But analysing the macrostate, its as if information is inverse to entropy, since we can know the pressure, temperature and so on |
| 18:49.23 | Wormy | It would seem any configuration of the miscostates could lead to the same properties in the macrostate as well, provided the density and thus temperature is the same |
| 18:50.45 | Wormy | Then I found a potentially sticky topic, since its hard to find under the same name: anti-thermodynamic systems. |
| 18:51.01 | Ghelae | If you mean that which particles fill which microstates doesn't matter to the overall macrostate, that's correct. |
| 18:51.26 | Ghelae | Of course, on a quantum scale, you're going to be dealing with fundamentally indistinguishable particles anyway. |
| 18:51.53 | Wormy | Yay, I guessed that part |
| 18:52.06 | Wormy | As in, didn't read it |
| 18:53.09 | Wormy | Right. in an anti-thermodynamic system, the second law still operates, but energy injected into the system can cool it down, and energy taken away heat it up. This is common for gravitational systems. |
| 18:53.57 | Ghelae | An equivalent way of saying that would be that it has a negative heat capacity. |
| 18:54.17 | Wormy | Ah so it is the definition of negative temperature? Okay |
| 18:54.22 | Ghelae | No, not quite. |
| 18:54.52 | Ghelae | Negative temperature - which can exist in non-equilibrium systems - means that the an increas in entropy will decrease the energy. |
| 18:55.46 | Ghelae | Negative heat capacity means that an increase in temperature will decrease the entropy. |
| 18:56.44 | Ghelae | Or, literally, that increasing energy (dE = T dS) corresponds to decreasing temperature; for negative temperature, increasing energy corresponds to decreasing entropy. |
| 18:57.24 | Ghelae | In equations, temperature T = dE/dS; heat capacity C = T dS/dT. |
| 18:58.31 | Wormy | Negative heat capacity seems to be driving systems to heterogeneous states instead of boring equilibriums |
| 18:59.23 | Ghelae | Yes, they're both non-equilibrium phenomena. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_capacity has a section on it. |
| 19:00.16 | Wormy | If you take energy away from gravitational bound planetary orbits, the planets will of course move closer to the star, causing them to fall at a faster rate. And the dissipation of star clusters can be attributed to the shrinkage of orbits and release of energy. |
| 19:01.00 | Wormy | But they are also unstable |
| 19:02.34 | Wormy | Now for the more speculative evolution of systems |
| 19:03.44 | Wormy | Universes are naturally Boltzmannian, at least in the classical description, tending to equilibrium. But there is a battle between this and the self-organised states, which as we've seen seem to have no conservation of complexity. |
| 19:04.23 | Wormy | These states seem to be more Leibinzian |
| 19:04.48 | Wormy | Eventually, it seems, the equilibrium wins |
| 19:06.14 | Wormy | But in cosmologies with chaotic inflation, or black hole cosmologies (or Penrose's Cyclic Cosmology) the evolution of new universes could lead to further evolution of heterogeneous states, orthogonal to the evolution of just one universe. |
| 19:06.58 | Wormy | And with no conservation of complexity, there is no reason why the equilibrium is a law that will always prevent new self-organisation. |
| 19:07.39 | Wormy | A Tiplerian scenario might be unnecessary. |
| 19:08.49 | Wormy | Such universes may also allow the existence of time, of evolution of laws, and expplain initial states and determinism in a new way, but that isn't necessary either perhaps. |
| 19:10.05 | Wormy | I also thought of a role for quantum statistical thermodynamics, but I've forgotten it. |
| 19:10.28 | Wormy | Any problems with this other than it is pure speculation? |
| 19:11.35 | Ghelae | The main problem I have with it is that I'm not sure what your point is. So there are non-equilibrium systems, and some theories allow for the universe to keep on generating complexity eternally. |
| 19:12.45 | Wormy | That is basically it, it also requires no unknowable futures of complexity that might make predicting the future of this toy model impossible |
| 19:13.50 | Wormy | I was seeking an escape hatch in the first place |
| 19:14.19 | Wormy | Though it hasn't provided much of anything new other than that. |
| 19:20.36 | Wormy | Ah, it shows that emergent properties can be real. It seems plenty of people object to them almost completely |
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| 21:27.22 | Liquid_Ink | Hello |
| 21:28.59 | Ghelae | Hello. |
| 21:29.40 | Liquid_Ink | How are you? |
| 21:43.46 | Ghelae | I'm okay; how about you? |
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| 21:49.56 | Ghelae | Hello. |
| 21:51.03 | Liquid_Ink | I woke up late |
| 21:51.11 | Liquid_Ink | ~seen Cyrannian |
| 21:51.19 | infobot | cyrannian <5f2c5c07@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.44.92.7> was last seen on IRC in channel #sporewiki, 4h 44m 22s ago, saying: 'Hi'. |
| 21:55.51 | Wormy_ | hi |
| 22:11.06 | Liquid_Ink | http://spore.wikia.com/wiki/Fiction:Lequian-Zarni_War Why is the infobox so skinny |
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