| 00:34.26 | netcurse | If you are a super .net developers |
| 00:34.34 | netcurse | you should apply at curse |
| 00:38.54 | ckknight | I'm a super .NET developer, I should apply! |
| 00:46.14 | Dashkal | flees from .NET |
| 00:47.15 | Dashkal | I learned C# (and the very basics of .NET) very briefly back in school... 6 years ago. Never used it again |
| 01:05.35 | *** join/#curseforge netcurse__ (n=chatzill@62.210.91.187) |
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| 01:23.21 | *** mode/#curseforge [+o Kody-] by ChanServ |
| 01:57.35 | *** join/#curseforge Dashkal (n=chatzill@S0106000476e7af4b.vc.shawcable.net) |
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| 03:09.19 | Dashkal | weeee.... uml is "fun" |
| 03:09.34 | Dashkal | damn tool does it right, so I need to remember exactly what subset of uml I actually care about |
| 03:18.22 | Dashkal | Hmm, I wonder if I should simplify my model by allowing files to arbratrally nest... Would make laying forums over top of the filesystem easier since I'd be able to put board or thread parameters in the parent "directory" of the messages. |
| 03:24.08 | Dashkal | Ok, that made things much simpler. The file store domain is down to two classes: Transport and File |
| 05:05.06 | *** join/#curseforge cncfanatics (n=evolve@230.61-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) |
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| 07:57.08 | charon | morning |
| 09:45.46 | Zyuu | morning! |
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| 14:51.08 | *** mode/#curseforge [+o netcurse] by ChanServ |
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| 15:32.33 | *** mode/#curseforge [+o Kaelten] by ChanServ |
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| 15:43.45 | *** join/#curseforge cncfanatics (n=evolve@230.61-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) |
| 15:53.51 | cncfanatics | hello ppl |
| 15:54.28 | Kolie | hi cnc |
| 15:55.10 | cncfanatics | :o, what happend to the +o's ? :o |
| 15:55.21 | cncfanatics | chanserv buggy ? |
| 16:09.41 | cncfanatics | I had a question |
| 16:09.49 | cncfanatics | will large addons be able to get a subforum on curseforge ? |
| 16:11.22 | ckknight | cncfanatics: I believe yes, but it has to be justified |
| 16:11.24 | ckknight | that's all |
| 16:11.39 | ckknight | vBulletin only supports so many forums before crapping out |
| 16:11.40 | cncfanatics | ok, cheers :) |
| 16:11.45 | cncfanatics | thats fail |
| 16:11.48 | ckknight | truth |
| 16:11.55 | *** mode/#curseforge [-o Kolie] by Kolie |
| 16:12.05 | *** mode/#curseforge [+v Kolie] by ckknight |
| 16:12.33 | Kolie | why |
| 16:12.42 | ckknight | why what? |
| 16:12.47 | Kolie | why did you +v me |
| 16:12.52 | Kolie | I was going stealth. |
| 16:12.57 | ckknight | stealth? |
| 16:13.03 | ckknight | how come? |
| 16:13.08 | *** mode/#curseforge [-v Kolie] by ckknight |
| 16:13.10 | Kolie | cuz im a ninja kthx bye |
| 16:13.35 | Kolie | freenode has this thing where everyone in the channel is unmoded. |
| 16:13.39 | Kolie | its like a policy or something |
| 16:16.50 | ckknight | ? |
| 16:16.53 | ckknight | how do you mean? |
| 16:17.14 | Kolie | I mean everyone sits in the channel -v -o |
| 16:17.53 | Kolie | check out #C++ or #wxWidgets. ( wx has one right now cause they are unbanning tor ) but no one is channel moded |
| 16:19.08 | Kolie | any major channel really, ubuntu, gento, django, all no ops. |
| 16:28.55 | ckknight | um, so? |
| 16:29.19 | ckknight | it's mostly so that everyone's on a level playing field, but if someone bad comes, one of the ops asks Chanserv for +o, kickbans, and then -o's |
| 16:56.13 | smariot | i get 'Invalid session' under the password field trying to log into curseforge. |
| 17:07.18 | cncfanatics | why are some people such bloody idiots ? |
| 17:07.24 | cncfanatics | ~referto Beladona |
| 17:12.49 | Zyuu | what happened? |
| 17:13.20 | *** join/#curseforge Allara (n=chatzill@c-24-20-133-89.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 17:13.23 | cncfanatics | Beladona felt like kicking me because I agreed on the oppinion of someone |
| 17:13.27 | cncfanatics | such things frustrate me |
| 17:13.45 | Zyuu | in wowuidev? |
| 17:13.57 | cncfanatics | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:14.23 | Zyuu | must have been awhile ago or? I scrolled for awhile |
| 17:14.25 | Zyuu | couldnt find it =p |
| 17:14.28 | Zyuu | maybe i'm blind |
| 17:14.30 | cncfanatics | about 1 minute ago |
| 17:14.33 | Zyuu | o |
| 17:14.55 | Zyuu | only says you left |
| 17:15.01 | Zyuu | is that how freenode works maybe? |
| 17:15.10 | Zyuu | on quakenet and other networks it usually say who kick who |
| 17:15.12 | cncfanatics | just above that |
| 17:15.15 | *** kick/#curseforge [Zyuu!i=Zyuu@WoWUIDev/CurseStaff/CurseForge/WOWDB/AionSource/Zyuu] by Zyuu (Zyuu) |
| 17:15.22 | *** join/#curseforge Zyuu (i=Zyuu@WoWUIDev/CurseStaff/CurseForge/WOWDB/AionSource/Zyuu) |
| 17:15.22 | *** mode/#curseforge [+o Zyuu] by ChanServ |
| 17:15.24 | cncfanatics | I left after I said to Beladona she was an idiot |
| 17:15.30 | Zyuu | its a he btw |
| 17:15.30 | cncfanatics | (which was after I rejoined) |
| 17:15.35 | cncfanatics | he then, I don't care |
| 17:16.05 | Zyuu | all I see is |
| 17:16.06 | Zyuu | [19:03] * DARKGuy was kicked by Beladona (Beladona) |
| 17:16.11 | cncfanatics | under that |
| 17:16.52 | Zyuu | says you left, maybe just good timing :) |
| 17:17.23 | cncfanatics | ah, w/e |
| 17:37.24 | *** join/#curseforge Dashkal (n=chatzill@209.90.184.174) |
| 17:37.33 | Zyuu | smariot |
| 17:37.37 | Zyuu | where are you tring to login? |
| 17:37.41 | Zyuu | trying |
| 17:55.44 | *** join/#curseforge Kolie (n=repli@adsl-070-154-141-184.sip.bna.bellsouth.net) |
| 17:55.44 | *** mode/#curseforge [+o Kolie] by ChanServ |
| 17:59.56 | *** join/#curseforge cncfanatics (n=evolve@230.61-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) |
| 18:11.43 | ckknight | it's okay, cncfanatics, the bad women can't hurt you here |
| 18:11.59 | Zyuu | lol |
| 18:12.13 | cncfanatics | rofl |
| 18:12.25 | cncfanatics | slaps ckknight with the whocking 3.5k lines of libDewdrop |
| 18:12.35 | ckknight | what? |
| 18:12.39 | Dashkal | cncfanatics: In answer to your question yesterday (Will I use your OO library). That's a maybe. At the moment I've kept my design simple enough that all I need are interfaces alone. |
| 18:12.58 | cncfanatics | interfaces are easy enough to implement without a lib |
| 18:13.03 | Dashkal | exactly |
| 18:13.47 | Dashkal | I've been working on some UML to get a better idea of how it's going to work. I have a whopping three classes in the domain, and a couple constants. |
| 18:14.04 | Dashkal | damn, nobody seems to know why gfs-fuse doesn't work *cry* |
| 18:14.05 | cncfanatics | heh |
| 18:15.35 | Dashkal | I want to be able to get eclipse to open projects sitting on my home box :p |
| 18:16.28 | Dashkal | but eclipse doesn't appear to have gvfs bindings, and the fuse magic daemon doesn't appear to be starting |
| 18:27.21 | Dashkal | meh, mebbe I just need to restart and something I did willg et it to pick up |
| 18:39.45 | *** join/#curseforge Dashkal (n=chatzill@209.90.184.174) |
| 18:47.11 | *** join/#curseforge Dashkal (n=chatzill@209.90.184.174) |
| 18:52.37 | Dashkal | I has success! Apparently the initial administrator user doesn't get FUSE access by default. |
| 19:04.50 | Zyuu | ^_^"~ |
| 19:06.11 | Dashkal | prollly a good call in terms of security, but this is a single-user machine. One password to rule them all and I'm happy |
| 19:06.33 | Zyuu | I removed my router. |
| 19:06.38 | Zyuu | its prolly easy to hack me now |
| 19:06.56 | Zyuu | dunno if it protected me though =p |
| 19:07.07 | Zyuu | I have one password to rule them all too |
| 19:07.57 | Dashkal | heh |
| 19:08.01 | Dashkal | what os? |
| 19:08.11 | Dashkal | doesn't trust the windows tcp stack one bit... |
| 19:09.43 | Zyuu | Lol |
| 19:09.47 | Zyuu | Windows . :p |
| 19:09.54 | Zyuu | dont touch me, im nice |
| 19:11.32 | Dashkal | heh |
| 19:11.33 | cncfanatics | lols at windows |
| 19:11.39 | cncfanatics | long live linux behind a hardware firewall |
| 19:11.48 | Dashkal | I don't trust it, but if it was _that_ easy to destroy microsoft.com would be constantly pwned |
| 19:12.03 | cncfanatics | totaly not the same range of software |
| 19:12.11 | Dashkal | That website is under continious attack |
| 19:12.24 | cncfanatics | microsoft windows home ~= microsoft windows server latest edition personaly kept secure by microsoft |
| 19:12.47 | Dashkal | The tcp/ip stack would be the same, though. No point in writing two implementations of something so core. Would make poor business sense |
| 19:12.49 | cncfanatics | the easyest way to destroy ms.com would be to get the hold of enough systems to flood it tbh |
| 19:13.03 | cncfanatics | which would take a worm |
| 19:13.12 | Dashkal | ddos is as simple and brute-force as it gets. There is no defence |
| 19:13.26 | cncfanatics | indeed |
| 19:13.47 | cncfanatics | get them out of bandwith and it'll go down |
| 19:13.55 | cncfanatics | it'll be hard to manage to get more bandwith then them though |
| 19:14.04 | Dashkal | But Zyuu, I'd strongly recomend a hardware firewall/router. NAT all by itself with only a few open ports reduces the risk of getting wormed dramatically |
| 19:14.20 | Dashkal | storm during it's heyday :p |
| 19:14.28 | Kolie | cncfanatics, too many servers in too many locations, you would take out much of the internet if you did take down microsoft.com |
| 19:14.31 | Dashkal | s/it's/its/ |
| 19:14.39 | Zyuu | my router had a firewall in it |
| 19:14.44 | cncfanatics | Kolie: how so ? |
| 19:14.52 | Zyuu | Problem with my router is |
| 19:14.52 | Kolie | cncfanatics, what do you mean how so. |
| 19:14.57 | Zyuu | it slow down msn transfers |
| 19:14.59 | Zyuu | it piss me off |
| 19:15.03 | Dashkal | I don't even use a true firewall per'se. I just use a NATing router with only specific ports forwarded |
| 19:15.05 | cncfanatics | I'm sure that microsoft.com has a lot of servers |
| 19:15.17 | cncfanatics | but I'm unsure how internet would be taken down if all those servers were |
| 19:15.21 | Kolie | cncfanatics, several hundreds per datacenter, several distributed datacenters |
| 19:15.22 | Dashkal | and I flashed dd-wrt onto it to fix the crashing-when-running-bittorrent issue |
| 19:15.38 | Kolie | you kill the connections in those datacenters, they are probably large POP' |
| 19:15.38 | Dashkal | Only need to choke each datacenter |
| 19:15.41 | Dashkal | nevermind the individual servers |
| 19:15.42 | Zyuu | well I just moved too |
| 19:15.44 | Kolie | everyone connected to that pop would be effected. |
| 19:15.46 | Zyuu | so I have internet in my wall |
| 19:15.53 | cncfanatics | mmm, true |
| 19:16.05 | Zyuu | no more cable / dsl etc |
| 19:16.05 | cncfanatics | though they'd likely shut down the affected site before that happens ? |
| 19:16.09 | Dashkal | Zyuu: If you choose not to use a hardware firewall, patch as often as possible. Be very paranoid about staying patched up |
| 19:16.20 | cncfanatics | and use iptables |
| 19:16.22 | Zyuu | I always patch all the time too |
| 19:16.24 | Zyuu | but |
| 19:16.33 | *** join/#curseforge Elsia (i=elsiarow@p57A2600B.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:16.35 | Zyuu | this is the first time I dont run on a hardware firewall |
| 19:16.36 | Kolie | cncfanatics, effected site? everyone on the pipe you are ddosing would be effected, wether it hits the website or not, the request traffic is still sent ATLEAST to the router. |
| 19:16.41 | Zyuu | im curious if it really is a big deal |
| 19:16.54 | Zyuu | I love my new connection and hardware firewalls tend to limit it |
| 19:16.56 | Dashkal | Zyuu it's an extra layer of defense |
| 19:16.58 | Zyuu | for 5000 different reasons |
| 19:16.58 | cncfanatics | true, my network knowledge sucks |
| 19:17.19 | Dashkal | There is no "magic" protection. IT's all just layering defense on defense to reduce the risk of turning into a spambot |
| 19:17.22 | Zyuu | What I also like about that router is that it load balance traffic |
| 19:17.28 | Kolie | cncfanatics, you would be far better off targetting something like their DNS servers, of which they probably have many, but fewer then directly going for the website. |
| 19:17.41 | Zyuu | can you have a load balancer for a home network? |
| 19:17.44 | Zyuu | i.e buy one? |
| 19:17.46 | Zyuu | I might do that heh |
| 19:17.50 | Kolie | you can also forge the UDP traffic on the DNS servers in question. |
| 19:17.55 | Zyuu | if I start downloading 8 different torrents |
| 19:17.55 | Dashkal | of course, but dedicated hardware like that isn't cheap |
| 19:18.00 | Zyuu | my internet goes kinda slow :) |
| 19:18.08 | Zyuu | 10/10mbit is pretty good though |
| 19:18.20 | Zyuu | so there has to be a way to balance out the traffic for the torrents |
| 19:18.45 | Zyuu | well has to be a router or something that doesnt cost a fortune that balance traffic? |
| 19:18.46 | Dashkal | I think there's packages like that you can flash onto such as dd-wrt (buy a WRT-54GL from linksys for a simple but effective model you can flash that onto). That lil router is a very versitile network appliance |
| 19:18.47 | cncfanatics | Kolie: I'm just a 18 year old brat that has no knowledge at all about networks :p |
| 19:19.02 | Zyuu | hmm |
| 19:19.07 | Dashkal | But your best bet would be to find a torrent app that can do it all by itself |
| 19:19.12 | Kolie | cncfanatics Im just 21 :P |
| 19:19.20 | cncfanatics | well, you did some studies prolly |
| 19:19.23 | Dashkal | dedicated network applicances are suppoed to "make" hosts behave. You can do that right on the host :p |
| 19:19.25 | Zyuu | the router I used has something called game fuel |
| 19:19.29 | cncfanatics | I'm not in hischool/univ yet |
| 19:19.30 | Zyuu | it prioritize gaming traffic |
| 19:19.32 | Kolie | cncfanatics, no college, |
| 19:19.46 | cncfanatics | I'm in my last college year atm, so no work exp yet |
| 19:19.49 | Zyuu | ok dashkal, how do I make my connection behave? |
| 19:19.50 | Zyuu | example: |
| 19:19.53 | Zyuu | I seed 8 torrents |
| 19:19.56 | Dashkal | Throttle down your bittorrent |
| 19:19.59 | Zyuu | they dont upload in high speeds or anything |
| 19:20.01 | Dashkal | give it a maximum upload rate |
| 19:20.03 | Zyuu | but they still slow down my internet |
| 19:20.04 | Zyuu | I did. |
| 19:20.07 | Zyuu | it still run slow |
| 19:20.13 | Zyuu | i.e it takes 5sec to open a site |
| 19:20.25 | Zyuu | instead of instant response |
| 19:20.25 | Zyuu | no matter if it seed in 5kb/s or 1000 |
| 19:20.26 | Dashkal | If you aren't maxing your upload pipe, it isn't a bandwidth thing |
| 19:20.29 | cncfanatics | get an app that can control ingoing/outoging bandwith of every problem |
| 19:20.37 | Zyuu | if I stop the torrents all is back to normal |
| 19:20.44 | Dashkal | could be CPU maxing |
| 19:20.49 | Zyuu | not that either |
| 19:20.51 | Dashkal | or the client is lying about throttling |
| 19:20.55 | Zyuu | cpu is at like 2% ;p |
| 19:21.02 | Zyuu | well the client (utorrent) |
| 19:21.06 | Zyuu | report 50kb/s or so |
| 19:21.07 | Zyuu | tops |
| 19:21.10 | Zyuu | that's nothing |
| 19:21.16 | Zyuu | so it's not BW related |
| 19:21.20 | Zyuu | what else does torrent affect |
| 19:21.21 | Dashkal | didn't utorrent get bought out Bittorrent Inc (which sold out to the MPAA)? |
| 19:21.24 | Zyuu | amount of open connections? |
| 19:21.35 | cncfanatics | utorrent is made out of PURE fail |
| 19:21.35 | Dashkal | what is your upload pipe? 50kb/s might be capping it |
| 19:21.46 | Zyuu | im on 10/10mbit |
| 19:21.48 | Dashkal | that could be capping as well |
| 19:21.51 | Zyuu | so 1200kb/s or so |
| 19:22.05 | Kolie | utorrent is one of the faster most efficient torrent applications made, why do you insist it failes? |
| 19:22.06 | Zyuu | I test at the same time to upload to an ftp |
| 19:22.06 | Dashkal | concurrent connections can drive your response time right down |
| 19:22.09 | Zyuu | and I get over 1000 |
| 19:22.15 | Dashkal | Kolie: read my earlier comment |
| 19:22.19 | Zyuu | ok how do I limit the concurrent connections |
| 19:22.21 | Zyuu | that has to be it |
| 19:22.36 | Zyuu | I like Utorrent |
| 19:22.38 | Kolie | Bought out by BT Inc? I fail to see how that makes the application any more worse. |
| 19:22.40 | Zyuu | currently testing their 1.8 beta version |
| 19:22.41 | Dashkal | Bittorrent Inc. sold out to the copyright cartel. |
| 19:23.00 | Zyuu | its still a good app tho :) |
| 19:23.12 | Zyuu | does it really matter who own them? |
| 19:23.16 | Dashkal | Trusting it not to sell you out to the MPAA/RIAA is playing rissian roulette |
| 19:23.23 | cncfanatics | I don't like it because it limits your downstream when you limit your upstream |
| 19:23.28 | Zyuu | I use SSL. |
| 19:23.31 | Dashkal | Azureous works |
| 19:23.31 | Kolie | Dashkal, app is fine, it does no such thing. |
| 19:23.40 | Zyuu | cncfanatics - sharing is caring |
| 19:23.43 | Kolie | Azureus is a resource pounding hog, atleast on windows. |
| 19:23.45 | cncfanatics | I don't have the bandwith to share :( |
| 19:23.47 | Dashkal | Kolie: I don't trust it. And there's little way you'd ever catch it if it did. |
| 19:23.52 | cncfanatics | I have 10 gigs a month |
| 19:23.55 | Zyuu | yeah azureus is terrible, no offense |
| 19:23.59 | cncfanatics | if I share, I'm out of bandwith the 10th of the monthy |
| 19:23.59 | Zyuu | ah, where do you live? |
| 19:24.01 | Dashkal | I use ktorrent :p |
| 19:24.04 | Zyuu | Poland or? |
| 19:24.07 | Kolie | Dashkal, I have more then my fair share of reversing, and I have taken an extended look at the utorrent.exe |
| 19:24.08 | cncfanatics | belgium |
| 19:24.12 | Zyuu | ok |
| 19:24.15 | Zyuu | never been |
| 19:24.20 | Zyuu | didnt know belgium limited traffic |
| 19:24.24 | Zyuu | thought only England and Australia did |
| 19:24.32 | cncfanatics | the day unlimited bandwith comes out I start sharing |
| 19:24.37 | Dashkal | Kolie: Never upgrade from the version you reversed :p |
| 19:24.38 | cncfanatics | but till then, I can't :p which is why utorrent sucks for me |
| 19:24.45 | Zyuu | yeah, Id go crazy |
| 19:24.48 | Zyuu | a dvd movie is 4gb to DL |
| 19:24.56 | Zyuu | so that means I can only DL 2 per month??? |
| 19:24.57 | Zyuu | :P |
| 19:25.02 | cncfanatics | thats about what I do |
| 19:25.04 | Kolie | Dashkal, I do upgrade, and run a bindiff on them, look at the differences, and decide if its worth the upgrade or not. |
| 19:25.16 | Dashkal | Like I said, Russian Roulette |
| 19:25.22 | Dashkal | The developers cannot be trusted |
| 19:25.28 | cncfanatics | rtorrent = win |
| 19:25.32 | Zyuu | Dashkal |
| 19:25.33 | cncfanatics | little ncursers based torrent app |
| 19:25.35 | Zyuu | connect via SSL |
| 19:25.39 | Zyuu | and there's np |
| 19:25.40 | Zyuu | for example |
| 19:25.44 | Zyuu | www.tvtorrents.com |
| 19:25.46 | Kolie | Dashkal, even if they did sell you out, the method of doing so would be highly illegal and couldnt be used against you. |
| 19:25.47 | Zyuu | provide you with SSL |
| 19:26.02 | Zyuu | Yeah, they cant monitor such traffic |
| 19:26.04 | Zyuu | it's illegal for them |
| 19:26.09 | Zyuu | and they dont want to get sued by the whole world |
| 19:26.13 | Zyuu | so many use utorrent it's crazy |
| 19:26.22 | cncfanatics | http://libtorrent.rakshasa.no/ |
| 19:26.25 | Zyuu | imagine if all major torrent sites put a law suit together with all its users ;p |
| 19:26.27 | Dashkal | Zyuu: encrypted connection to a special "peer" that's actually a rogue node on the network. Gives enough information to tell what you're transferring. Now take that informoation and proceed to use more traditional methods of discovering what you're up to. Never mention the covert "phone home" in the suit |
| 19:26.47 | cncfanatics | Dashkal: I'd sue them personaly if they did that |
| 19:26.53 | Zyuu | me too |
| 19:26.54 | Kolie | Dashkal, there is enough people out there that could see whats going on to figure it out. |
| 19:26.59 | Dashkal | You'd have to _catch_ them to do so |
| 19:27.05 | Kolie | Your average user isnt going to know, it only takes one person. |
| 19:27.13 | cncfanatics | if someone finds out |
| 19:27.14 | Zyuu | I'd work together with piratebay, tvtorrents, torrentleech, mininova, suprnova and make a huge lawsuit |
| 19:27.19 | Kolie | There have been several applications discovered phoning home in the passed. |
| 19:27.19 | cncfanatics | and publishes that |
| 19:27.23 | cncfanatics | then the world would sue them |
| 19:27.36 | Zyuu | im sure at least one of the people using utorrent |
| 19:27.38 | Zyuu | have checked how the app works |
| 19:27.44 | Dashkal | in the current US legal climate? *snorts* I have less faith in that justice system than I do in Bittorrent Inc. |
| 19:27.59 | cncfanatics | I doubt they'd only get sued in the US |
| 19:28.11 | Dashkal | They're based there. Doesn't matter where else they're sued |
| 19:28.13 | cncfanatics | I'd personaly make sure they get sued in the EU |
| 19:28.54 | Dashkal | You needs holdings in a place to be sued with any meaning behind it. Otherwise what's the court actually going to do? |
| 19:29.44 | Dashkal | But we've gone off base here. My whole point is that I don't trust utorrent. So I choose not to use it. |
| 19:29.51 | cncfanatics | use rtorrent :) |
| 19:29.57 | Dashkal | ktorrent :p |
| 19:30.10 | Dashkal | Though I'll be looking into gnome clients soon. I've recently converted |
| 19:30.17 | cncfanatics | Dashkal: if the european union would decide to personaly condemn utorrent I think the US would react |
| 19:30.22 | Dashkal | kde4 is full of fail |
| 19:30.22 | cncfanatics | rtorrent is ncurses based |
| 19:30.29 | Zyuu | this is how it works cnc |
| 19:30.31 | cncfanatics | and is the most efficient torrent app on the web I think |
| 19:30.36 | Zyuu | if you sue someone |
| 19:30.39 | Zyuu | and they are in the US |
| 19:30.42 | Zyuu | you have to go to the US |
| 19:30.54 | Zyuu | and you have to follow US law |
| 19:30.56 | cncfanatics | I know that :p |
| 19:30.59 | Dashkal | cncfanatics: again: what what it matter? About the worst they could do is order all EU ISPs to censor the utorrent download page |
| 19:31.14 | cncfanatics | mmm, true Dashkal |
| 19:31.21 | nevcairiel | the private torrent page i use validates clients that are allowed to be be used, and as long as utorrent is on their list (with a specific version number, ofc), i feel kinda safe to use it .. plus i mainly only download from there :P |
| 19:31.25 | cncfanatics | Zyuu: thats the reason tpb is still up and running |
| 19:31.51 | Zyuu | I know, one of the owners of tpb is someone I grew up with as a kid ;p |
| 19:31.56 | Zyuu | he told me all about it |
| 19:32.01 | Dashkal | nevcairiel: fair enough. As long as you trust the people maintaining that list to do their job, you're all set |
| 19:32.22 | cncfanatics | you did ? :o |
| 19:32.22 | Zyuu | do you have any idea how much money they earn? ;) |
| 19:32.25 | Zyuu | yep |
| 19:32.27 | Zyuu | < Swede |
| 19:32.29 | cncfanatics | give him three cheers for me |
| 19:33.29 | cncfanatics | sweden is about the only country except belgium and the UK I think I could live in :p |
| 19:33.39 | Dashkal | cheers for Canada |
| 19:33.46 | Dashkal | :p |
| 19:33.59 | Zyuu | I could imagine living in |
| 19:34.02 | Zyuu | Hawaii |
| 19:34.06 | Zyuu | or |
| 19:34.08 | Zyuu | SF |
| 19:34.12 | Dashkal | I know someone there... bout it :p |
| 19:34.18 | Zyuu | that's about it |
| 19:34.25 | Zyuu | England limits BW. |
| 19:34.27 | Zyuu | Can't live there |
| 19:34.28 | cncfanatics | the UK, belgium and sweden here :p |
| 19:34.41 | cncfanatics | I already have limited bandwith, can't get worse :p |
| 19:34.46 | Zyuu | problem is |
| 19:34.53 | Funkeh` | I've never had limited bw |
| 19:34.55 | Zyuu | I dont like being limited, since I like the freedom of choice |
| 19:35.01 | Zyuu | I'm not a huge downloader |
| 19:35.03 | Funkeh` | I live in scotland |
| 19:35.08 | Zyuu | but sometimes I DL a couple of seasons |
| 19:35.11 | Zyuu | ok, what's your speed? |
| 19:35.13 | Zyuu | 0.5mbit? |
| 19:35.26 | nevcairiel | has 6mbit unlimited |
| 19:35.27 | Zyuu | I checked lots of UK sites |
| 19:35.27 | Funkeh` | 8mb |
| 19:35.33 | Zyuu | and I only found like |
| 19:35.34 | Zyuu | 2mbit |
| 19:35.36 | cncfanatics | I'm at 8mbit |
| 19:35.37 | Zyuu | or limited |
| 19:35.48 | Zyuu | where do you live? London? |
| 19:35.54 | cncfanatics | in belgium |
| 19:35.56 | cncfanatics | kortrijk ;) |
| 19:36.00 | Zyuu | I mean nev |
| 19:36.09 | nevcairiel | me? germany :P |
| 19:36.19 | Zyuu | well |
| 19:36.22 | Zyuu | you can get 50mbit |
| 19:36.23 | Zyuu | in Berlin |
| 19:36.32 | nevcairiel | sure, but i dont live in berlin |
| 19:36.37 | Zyuu | in Sweden you can get 24mbit/2mbit up everywhere |
| 19:36.47 | Zyuu | and 10/10mbit (or 100/100) in all major cities |
| 19:37.11 | Zyuu | how come you would like to live in Sweden cnc btw? |
| 19:37.14 | Zyuu | anything special why? |
| 19:37.24 | Dashkal | you EU people suck with your good bandwidth :p |
| 19:37.35 | Dashkal | We're only marginally better than the US |
| 19:37.38 | Zyuu | I have Telia Fiberlan |
| 19:37.57 | nevcairiel | sweden has the insane bandwith, 10mbit upload is just sick |
| 19:37.59 | Zyuu | Sweden's most reliable connection /flex ;) |
| 19:38.00 | Dashkal | I haven't heard any news about fiber in Canada yet. :( |
| 19:38.01 | nevcairiel | you cant get that here at all |
| 19:38.15 | Zyuu | yeah its sick man |
| 19:38.18 | Zyuu | I dunno what to do with it yet |
| 19:38.25 | Zyuu | only had it for 8 days so far |
| 19:38.26 | Dashkal | Dear lord... I get 10 DOWN... I think it's like 1 or 2 up |
| 19:38.40 | Zyuu | problem is |
| 19:38.42 | Zyuu | maybe you can answer this |
| 19:38.44 | cncfanatics | Zyuu: no real special reason, except that it seems to be a nice country |
| 19:38.47 | Zyuu | I cant find a torrent file to share lots |
| 19:39.07 | Zyuu | how do I find a torrent file that want me to seed at 1000kb/s for a few days? |
| 19:39.16 | nevcairiel | you dont |
| 19:39.17 | Zyuu | I use torrentleech.com and tvtorrents.com |
| 19:39.27 | Zyuu | and I want better ratio |
| 19:39.35 | Dashkal | "a" torrent? You don't. Go with many torrents :p |
| 19:39.45 | Zyuu | but when I tried with 8 at the same time |
| 19:39.49 | Zyuu | everything I do gets delayed |
| 19:39.54 | Zyuu | but it still only use like 200kb/s |
| 19:40.02 | nevcairiel | on private pages the best you can do is get a 0-day torrent, download maybe 10% of it, and upload that 10% at a high speed |
| 19:40.05 | Dashkal | Could use a dedicated machine for torrents if you have the hardware |
| 19:40.06 | nevcairiel | for ratio |
| 19:40.40 | Zyuu | hm |
| 19:40.49 | Zyuu | but if I share on piratebay |
| 19:40.52 | Zyuu | It use ALL my bw |
| 19:40.53 | Zyuu | right away |
| 19:40.57 | Zyuu | but never on private sites |
| 19:41.10 | nevcairiel | public sites have a fuckload of leechers and less seeds |
| 19:42.07 | Dashkal | This is true, which is why I always share to 1.0 |
| 19:42.20 | Dashkal | I don't use private sites. The building the relationship bit annoys me :p |
| 19:42.43 | Zyuu | you mean ratio? |
| 19:42.46 | Zyuu | I dont talk to anyone |
| 19:42.52 | Zyuu | what I do is |
| 19:42.55 | Dashkal | If my ratio is being tracked, I go 1.25 |
| 19:42.56 | Zyuu | I buy premium the first month |
| 19:42.59 | Zyuu | then I seed like crazy |
| 19:43.06 | Zyuu | and then I cancel my premium and all is good |
| 19:43.14 | Zyuu | premium lets you bypass the queues if you got bad ratio etc |
| 19:43.15 | Dashkal | So I have a buffer in case I download something I want to be rid of without uploadin gback |
| 19:43.16 | nevcairiel | if you have the upload, thats pretty easy |
| 19:43.25 | nevcairiel | i only have 386 upload or so |
| 19:43.32 | Zyuu | 386kb/s is fairly ok |
| 19:43.39 | nevcairiel | kbit that is |
| 19:43.40 | Zyuu | (im being an ass) |
| 19:43.41 | Zyuu | :P |
| 19:43.43 | Zyuu | yeah I know |
| 19:43.54 | Zyuu | where do you live? |
| 19:43.57 | Zyuu | in Germany that is |
| 19:43.58 | Dashkal | Heh, I max out at about 100 up |
| 19:44.01 | Zyuu | Cologne is awesome |
| 19:44.17 | nevcairiel | near hamburg, not close enough for the city-connections, though |
| 19:44.34 | Zyuu | what's the standard adsl in Germany then? |
| 19:44.37 | Zyuu | Sweden ias 24/2 |
| 19:44.41 | Zyuu | *has |
| 19:45.00 | Zyuu | let me try send you a file on irc |
| 19:45.03 | nevcairiel | in most areas its going 16/1 now |
| 19:45.30 | nevcairiel | but i can only get the 6/0.4 |
| 19:45.39 | nevcairiel | only 100kb? :P |
| 19:45.44 | Zyuu | yeah thats not good |
| 19:45.46 | Zyuu | does irc cap it? |
| 19:45.47 | cncfanatics | nevcairiel: 400kb/s is my max downstream :( |
| 19:46.03 | nevcairiel | its CTCP .. client to client protocol |
| 19:46.06 | nevcairiel | dont think its capped |
| 19:46.12 | Zyuu | hm |
| 19:46.13 | nevcairiel | doesnt involve the irc server |
| 19:46.48 | Zyuu | no idea really |
| 19:46.53 | Zyuu | I get 1.2mb to an ftp |
| 19:47.07 | Zyuu | yeah it seems to max out at 100ish to you |
| 19:47.42 | Dashkal | Damnit, a hole in my filesystem design. I forgot about permissions |
| 19:47.53 | Zyuu | gonna try send to dashkal |
| 19:47.57 | Zyuu | where are you located dash? |
| 19:48.11 | Dashkal | That'll be pretty craptastic. I'm in west coast canada |
| 19:48.29 | cncfanatics | belgium here, try me if you want |
| 19:48.29 | Zyuu | yeah ;X |
| 19:48.34 | cncfanatics | my downstream is 400ish max |
| 19:48.38 | Zyuu | but youre limited |
| 19:48.41 | Zyuu | I dont want to eat up your bw |
| 19:48.50 | Dashkal | 33kb/s lol |
| 19:48.53 | cncfanatics | a speed test shouldn't hurt it a lot |
| 19:49.09 | Zyuu | I get really crappy speeds with client to client |
| 19:49.21 | Zyuu | give me a url to a speed test? :P |
| 19:49.24 | cncfanatics | 92.63 |
| 19:49.42 | cncfanatics | http://www.google.com/search?q=bandwith+test |
| 19:49.49 | Zyuu | I ran one earlier today |
| 19:49.56 | Zyuu | and I got like 9.6/9.5 |
| 19:49.56 | cncfanatics | going to eat |
| 19:51.24 | Dashkal | murg... so many edge cases |
| 19:51.45 | Dashkal | seriously considers making permissions immutable |
| 19:52.34 | Zyuu | greek to me |
| 19:53.04 | Dashkal | Nexus has evolved into a virtual filesystem. I'm trying to settle permissions: who has access to post into a given directory |
| 19:53.27 | *** join/#curseforge Tinyboom (n=nahh@180.84-49-87.nextgentel.com) |
| 19:55.32 | Dashkal | My god I hope Eclipse Ganymede doesn't repeat _that_ mistake. For awhile I couldn't upgrade because an obsolete plugin that didn't load didn't have it's dependances met. |
| 19:57.00 | cncfanatics | Dashkal: make one directory per account name ? |
| 19:57.09 | cncfanatics | every account has permission to post only in its own account folder |
| 19:57.40 | Dashkal | cncfanatics: No good. Fourm message board: different accounts need to be able to post into the same folder (since a thread will be a folder) |
| 19:57.54 | cncfanatics | anoying |
| 19:58.19 | cncfanatics | guess you'll need different permissions for edit file and create new files |
| 19:58.23 | Dashkal | I may just make permissions immutable. Once you set them (at directory creation) they stay set. |
| 19:58.34 | cncfanatics | bit silly, the owner of a folder shld be able to chang ethem |
| 19:58.35 | Dashkal | Edit is simple: only the author may edit |
| 19:58.44 | cncfanatics | and not the forum owner ? |
| 19:59.03 | Dashkal | correct. The forum owner can "annotate" it'll look like an edit in the UI, but the filesystem won't change |
| 19:59.16 | Dashkal | or rather, the "edit" will actually be a second file that annotates the first |
| 19:59.24 | cncfanatics | I see |
| 19:59.25 | Dashkal | This deals with sync issues |
| 19:59.37 | Dashkal | and trust (since an edit would break the signature on the original file) |
| 20:00.07 | Dashkal | The owner can't even delete. He can just post a control annotation that tells other people to "Ahem, just ignore this message please" |
| 20:00.57 | Dashkal | The default implementation will probably see that and nuke the offending file if the annotation looks legit, but there's no way to enforce it. |
| 20:02.01 | Dashkal | oh, for clarity: An annotation is just a file, much like a directory is just a file. |
| 20:02.08 | Dashkal | files may contain other files |
| 20:02.58 | Zyuu | any reason I upload via ajax/php at 1200mb/s in IE |
| 20:03.02 | Zyuu | but at 50kb/s in Firefox? |
| 20:03.09 | Zyuu | *kb |
| 20:04.14 | Dashkal | hmm, I was suspecting a config variable that was capping it, but if it's there, it doesn't have any name I expect |
| 20:13.10 | Dashkal | permission structure: three part tuple: (who | what | parameter). Who refers to a "contact". Example: Self or PlayerBob or GuildLeader. what is the permission itself: "post_children" to allow the who to post files under this one. parameter is an optional modifier to the what. |
| 20:15.14 | Dashkal | a contact of "Self" (I'll probably call it "Owner" instead) always refers to the poster of the file. Special contacts like "GuildLeader" will be added later when I solve the problem of a guild changing its GM. |
| 20:16.56 | Dashkal | Contacts that do not refer to a specific player do not mix well with signed messages *sighs* |
| 20:20.12 | Dashkal | Freenet 0.7 officially released |
| 20:28.21 | Dashkal | Was it someone in here asking earlier about weather or not to pick up eclipse for some projects? |
| 20:28.47 | nevcairiel | I like eclipse only for its java debugging features |
| 20:28.49 | nevcairiel | but thats all |
| 20:28.57 | Dashkal | oh, nevermind, that isn't an article... *sighs* DZone as really started to suck |
| 20:29.11 | Dashkal | heh, the JDT is amazing |
| 20:29.27 | Dashkal | Too bad none of the other language tools come close... |
| 20:29.34 | nevcairiel | JIT Debugging is win anyway |
| 20:30.06 | Dashkal | I like the whole JDT. Ctrl-click navigation is absolute win |
| 20:30.28 | nevcairiel | I tried the CDT once |
| 20:30.30 | nevcairiel | it sucked :P |
| 20:30.36 | Dashkal | shift-alt-J to make an javadoc template. shift-ctrl-f to make my code all pretty |
| 20:31.06 | Dashkal | How long ago? the CDT has come a long way over the last year (not enough to move me off of text editor+make yet, but it's getting better) |
| 20:32.40 | Dashkal | DLTK is looking promising, but it's still too early to tell. Mebbe in 3.4 it'll become useful. (DLTK == general framework for dynamic languages: Python, perl, groovy, etc) |
| 20:33.27 | Dashkal | I'm just hoping p2 doesn't suck. p2 is suppoed to replace the amazingly craptastic update manager |
| 20:34.09 | nevcairiel | I use visual studio for C development |
| 20:34.13 | nevcairiel | I just need a good debugger |
| 20:34.18 | nevcairiel | and CDT doesnt offer that |
| 20:34.31 | nevcairiel | and the VS debugger is pure win |
| 20:34.39 | cncfanatics | gdb ftw |
| 20:35.09 | nevcairiel | VS owns any other C debuggers |
| 20:35.16 | Dashkal | the CDT is working on good gdb support in windows |
| 20:35.26 | Dashkal | gdb is amazing ... if you can handle the command-line interface |
| 20:35.41 | cncfanatics | VS doesn't own anything imho :p |
| 20:35.50 | Dashkal | I see Dougs reports on planeteclipse from time to time |
| 20:36.43 | nevcairiel | cncfanatics: from your ignorance i see you never did any serious work with it :) |
| 20:37.01 | Dashkal | but yeah, when the CDT can properly support gdb, it'll rival VC for debugging. Until then, I concede your point |
| 20:37.11 | Dashkal | I feel dirty now... |
| 20:37.22 | cncfanatics | nope I didn't nevcairiel |
| 20:37.27 | cncfanatics | I don't often develop windows code |
| 20:37.55 | Dashkal | cncfanatics: You should. Use gtk or qt if you must, but it's a bad idea to limit yourself to the unix world |
| 20:38.24 | cncfanatics | I don't do much C coding |
| 20:38.29 | cncfanatics | I'm only learning C/C++ atm |
| 20:38.32 | cncfanatics | so it doesn't really hurt, yet |
| 20:38.33 | nevcairiel | Anyway, i dont see gdb beating the VS just-in-time debugger with partial linking, but we'll see :) |
| 20:38.51 | cncfanatics | I'd like to be able to use C & C++ correctly before bothering with windows |
| 20:39.05 | Dashkal | define "JIT debugger". I wanna be sure I'm understanding you right |
| 20:39.25 | Dashkal | C is dead easy. C++ is java with multiple inheritance and manual memory management |
| 20:39.48 | Dashkal | (more accurately Java is C++ with interfaces instead of MI, but whatever :p ) |
| 20:40.03 | cncfanatics | I don't find C dead easy |
| 20:40.10 | cncfanatics | the only language I really fully know is lua :( |
| 20:40.16 | Dashkal | Pointers suck, but that's about it |
| 20:40.26 | Dashkal | really, _really_ hates pointers |
| 20:40.38 | cncfanatics | I don't even fully understand pointers yet :p |
| 20:40.41 | cncfanatics | too busy with lua atm |
| 20:40.47 | nevcairiel | step-by-step code execution with display of variable values, and partial linking to continue code execution when i change a offending line, oh and manual variable watches |
| 20:40.57 | nevcairiel | what i need from a debugger :P |
| 20:41.09 | cncfanatics | what exactly is partial linking ? |
| 20:41.23 | nevcairiel | I can change code while its running |
| 20:41.31 | Dashkal | akk, the code replacement bit |
| 20:41.38 | cncfanatics | :o nice |
| 20:41.45 | nevcairiel | i set a breakpoint |
| 20:41.48 | nevcairiel | see its wrong |
| 20:41.54 | nevcairiel | change it, and it continues there |
| 20:41.54 | cncfanatics | maybe microsoft doesn't only make shit software after all |
| 20:41.56 | Dashkal | I've often wondered how the hell VS manages that. Is it running the C in a virtual machine or wtf? |
| 20:42.09 | nevcairiel | heh |
| 20:42.13 | nevcairiel | the debugger is just win :) |
| 20:42.18 | cncfanatics | I doubt it, or your C app wouldn't have access to the outside world |
| 20:42.28 | cncfanatics | tbh, steal the debugger, link it to unix with winelib |
| 20:42.31 | cncfanatics | and use it instead of gdb |
| 20:42.35 | Dashkal | cncfanatics: Um, why not? Virtual machines can allow outside access... |
| 20:42.42 | cncfanatics | mmm, true |
| 20:42.43 | nevcairiel | the debugger uses the windows kernel for its job :p |
| 20:42.47 | cncfanatics | I'm thinking sandbox |
| 20:42.50 | nevcairiel | doubt it would run in wine |
| 20:42.58 | cncfanatics | try it ? :p |
| 20:43.02 | Dashkal | Very unlikely that it would work in wine :p |
| 20:43.14 | cncfanatics | goes to install VS express with wine |
| 20:43.17 | cncfanatics | and see the result |
| 20:43.29 | Dashkal | Yeah, I'm pretty sure gdb does _not_ support that. If it does, I've never seen the feature |
| 20:43.55 | Dashkal | It's entirely possible I've just never seen the feature. I avoid C/C++ in favour of garbage collecting languages. |
| 20:43.59 | nevcairiel | I think the JDT can actually do the code replacement with java |
| 20:44.15 | Dashkal | the JVM itself supports code replacement through it's debugging interface |
| 20:44.38 | Dashkal | ok, learn to tell when to use its and it's, Dashkal... |
| 20:44.41 | Dashkal | ~lart Dashkal |
| 20:44.41 | purl | gets a hotmal account and SPAMs Dashkal |
| 20:44.45 | nevcairiel | heh |
| 20:44.51 | cncfanatics | well, garbage collecting languages are not fit for everything |
| 20:44.57 | cncfanatics | and you could always go for managed C++, though thats fail |
| 20:44.59 | Dashkal | not everything, but most things |
| 20:45.02 | nevcairiel | I have to use java for university right now |
| 20:45.05 | nevcairiel | i dont like it :( |
| 20:45.12 | Dashkal | the latest advances in GC technologies are very, _very_ quick. |
| 20:45.17 | nevcairiel | Managed C++ is fail |
| 20:45.25 | nevcairiel | use C# if you want that way :P |
| 20:45.27 | Dashkal | murr? What about it bothers you? |
| 20:45.31 | Dashkal | C# is fail |
| 20:45.32 | cncfanatics | Dashkal: still slower then correct manual memory management though ? |
| 20:45.42 | Dashkal | Slower than _optimal_ manual management |
| 20:45.48 | Dashkal | optimal is the key wor |
| 20:45.50 | Dashkal | d* |
| 20:46.10 | Dashkal | It's faster than non-optimal but "correct" manual memory management |
| 20:46.12 | nevcairiel | mmm C# isnt too bad, i like it for developing windows apps |
| 20:47.03 | Dashkal | Java uses an advanced form of incremental GC these days. It's pretty damn smart, actually, so incurs very little overhead |
| 20:47.22 | nevcairiel | C++.net with the __gc keyword is crazy code :P |
| 20:47.48 | Dashkal | But you need to understand the garbage collector in general terms to make good use of any GC language. Otherwise you fight the thing and lose out |
| 20:48.41 | Dashkal | Must like t = {} in an OnUpdate is a bad idea, you don't want to be creating and discarding large objects in a tight loop in Java :p |
| 20:48.52 | Dashkal | Much* |
| 20:49.16 | cncfanatics | well, the lua GC ain't that smart |
| 20:49.28 | Dashkal | no, it's simple incremental |
| 20:49.55 | Dashkal | Java uses something called G1 nowadays. I can't claim to understand it, but it can actually handle lots of small, short-lived objects |
| 20:50.02 | cncfanatics | :o, nice stuff |
| 20:50.14 | cncfanatics | anyway, its nearly 11pm, so I'm going to bed |
| 20:50.16 | cncfanatics | and reading some |
| 20:50.20 | cncfanatics | g'night peeps |
| 20:50.28 | Dashkal | Well written Java can compete with C++ nowadays (C++ will win, but Java competes :p ) |
| 20:50.35 | Dashkal | Goodnight |
| 20:50.54 | nevcairiel | Due to the VM java will always loose to good C++ code |
| 20:51.11 | Dashkal | Java isn't interpreted anymore |
| 20:51.22 | cncfanatics | well, gcj can compile java code into native code |
| 20:51.27 | cncfanatics | I wonder how it'd fair in that cse |
| 20:51.28 | cncfanatics | case* |
| 20:51.31 | Dashkal | the java hotspot compilier does the same thing standard |
| 20:51.44 | cncfanatics | compile into executables ? |
| 20:51.50 | Dashkal | GCJ doesn't tend to get better performance than the JVM for long-running applications |
| 20:52.02 | nevcairiel | default java is still interpreted, no? |
| 20:52.03 | Dashkal | the hotspot compilier compiles often-run code into native code |
| 20:52.07 | Dashkal | default is hybrid |
| 20:52.11 | Dashkal | compiles what runs often |
| 20:52.16 | cncfanatics | could you compile executables with it ? |
| 20:52.20 | Dashkal | no |
| 20:52.27 | cncfanatics | anyway, g'night |
| 20:52.35 | nevcairiel | native code with a VM is rather a stretch to say |
| 20:52.36 | nevcairiel | ;) |
| 20:52.40 | Dashkal | at first it's slower (many invocations of a small program are slow as hell), but any long-running app quickly speeds up |
| 20:52.47 | nevcairiel | unless it packs some VM stuff with it |
| 20:53.03 | Dashkal | compiled bytecode accesing the vm is just C to C so *shrugs* |
| 20:53.15 | Dashkal | actually object code to object code but whatever |
| 20:53.35 | nevcairiel | compiled C code is directly asm |
| 20:53.40 | nevcairiel | no VM calls |
| 20:53.51 | smariot | hotspot can potentially use statistics from when the code was ran to improve optimization. |
| 20:54.00 | Dashkal | erm, inless your program is trivial, it's making calls to a framework of some sort |
| 20:54.07 | *** join/#curseforge charon (n=thomas@84-75-156-10.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 20:54.13 | nevcairiel | sure for the API calls |
| 20:54.23 | Dashkal | compiled bytecode is simply making calls to the framework that is the VM. It's not a large barrier once the code is compiled |
| 20:54.54 | Dashkal | there's no VM<->code barrier that needs to be crossed at that point |
| 20:55.44 | Dashkal | smariot: Exactly. That's why gcj compiled code doesn't get much of a speed boost (in some cases it's worse). |
| 20:55.57 | nevcairiel | C interacts with the OS/Hardware directly, Java goes Code -> VM -> OS/Hardware |
| 20:56.00 | Dashkal | hot hotspot compilier can see what the code actually does rather than what it could do |
| 20:56.23 | Dashkal | nevcairiel: Only for trivial programs. Most everything has a UI (that's a library that interfaces with another with another with another, etc) |
| 20:56.44 | nevcairiel | but the VM will most likely interface with those UI Libraries too |
| 20:56.44 | vhaarr | also, hotspot can compile to your specific CPU and hardware spec as opposed to a generic executable |
| 20:56.45 | Dashkal | once the bytecode is compiled into chunks, it's just interfacing with a library (the VM). |
| 20:56.54 | vhaarr | there are several examples of java hotspot being faster than C |
| 20:57.44 | vhaarr | not that it matters much, SQL is much more likely to be your bottle neck than any CPU issues |
| 20:58.02 | Dashkal | before the hotspot compiler gets at it, there's no question. C is faster than interpreted bytecode. Afterwords is another question. |
| 20:58.11 | nevcairiel | we've a programming contest once a year at university, a rather simple task coded for maximum speed |
| 20:58.21 | nevcairiel | I wouldnt try it with anythign except plain C |
| 20:58.22 | Dashkal | heh, for that I'd want to code in raw asm :p |
| 20:58.27 | vhaarr | can't use hotspot for that |
| 20:58.29 | nevcairiel | its too complex for asm |
| 20:58.47 | vhaarr | you can't drag a trailer to a motocross race |
| 20:58.55 | Dashkal | then C. If your goal is maximum CPU speed, go C. But that only works when the CPU is your bottleneck. Most apps these days that interact with a user are I/O locked |
| 20:59.14 | nevcairiel | I/O lock is probably the same for all programming languages |
| 20:59.24 | Dashkal | But you also have to consider developer time. Correct C/C++ code is harder to write than correct Java code (hence the abstraction that is java). |
| 20:59.59 | Dashkal | Exactly. And if you're I/O locked and not CPU locked than the tradeoff for a more abstracted language is a good one |
| 21:00.36 | nevcairiel | I actually like developing on a low abstraction layer like C :D |
| 21:00.48 | Dashkal | You pay for that control in time. |
| 21:01.00 | nevcairiel | Sure |
| 21:01.07 | Dashkal | time isn't free |
| 21:01.33 | Dashkal | (I'm not saying Java is better than C, but there are many classes of problems where its more efficient overall) |
| 21:02.01 | Dashkal | maximum CPU efficiency isn't often a requirement in projects I've worked on :p |
| 21:02.04 | nevcairiel | Java has its own issues that stop me from developing real apps with it |
| 21:02.08 | Dashkal | like? |
| 21:02.09 | vhaarr | as regards to GC, you have to consider some other benefits of having a memory allocator work for you, like that the allocator knows all the memory, it doesn't have to search for free spots, and also that it gives you memory adjacent to the last bit you asked for |
| 21:02.14 | vhaarr | java has no issues |
| 21:02.20 | Dashkal | snorts |
| 21:02.23 | Dashkal | Java has lots of issues |
| 21:02.23 | vhaarr | people are just ignorant |
| 21:02.38 | Dashkal | Just none that stop me from using it |
| 21:02.38 | nevcairiel | people that claim that one language does not have issues are ignorant :P |
| 21:02.45 | vhaarr | :P |
| 21:02.58 | Dashkal | Anonymous inner classes to simulate closures is lose |
| 21:03.04 | vhaarr | I was just responding with the same kind of statement you made nevcairiel |
| 21:03.14 | vhaarr | "stop me from developing real apps with it" |
| 21:03.22 | vhaarr | that's just a load of bull, and you know it |
| 21:03.29 | nevcairiel | its not |
| 21:03.29 | Dashkal | I want a closure, not a bloddy nested interface to provide a callback tyvm |
| 21:03.33 | nevcairiel | its my personal opinion |
| 21:03.35 | nevcairiel | thats all :P |
| 21:04.00 | Dashkal | but seriously, what kind of thing prevents you from developing seriously in java? |
| 21:04.49 | vhaarr | for UI programming I would have agreed a few years ago, but that front has improved significantly |
| 21:04.59 | Dashkal | Swing doesn't suck anymore :p |
| 21:05.05 | Dashkal | Oh god how I hated it back in 1.4 |
| 21:05.25 | nevcairiel | Was swing that one that uses native control looks? |
| 21:05.28 | Dashkal | Jgoodies FormLayout :D |
| 21:05.37 | Dashkal | Swing emulates native controls, yes |
| 21:05.43 | Dashkal | Reduces the requirements on the host OS |
| 21:05.43 | vhaarr | thankfully I only did server stuff then |
| 21:06.06 | Dashkal | there's an alternative that uses GTK (SWT The thing that drives eclipse's UI) |
| 21:06.28 | Dashkal | It has a different model, though. Makes it difficult to bounce back and forth to me. |
| 21:06.39 | nevcairiel | I dislike java apps that use AWT for that typical java look |
| 21:06.46 | Dashkal | AWT is ancient |
| 21:06.50 | Dashkal | ignore it |
| 21:06.58 | nevcairiel | alot of apps still use it <.< |
| 21:07.09 | nevcairiel | you can really see "hey its using java, it looks shit" :P |
| 21:07.13 | Dashkal | erm? Nothing developed for any current version of java should still be using it |
| 21:07.24 | Dashkal | AWT is java 1.3 old, like a decade old |
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| 21:07.41 | Dashkal | You might be thinking of apps that still cling to the "metal" look and feel, but I let my apps use things that aren't so horribly ugly |
| 21:08.22 | nevcairiel | Whats "in" for java UI then? Swing these days? |
| 21:08.25 | Dashkal | Java fully supports a windows-like look and feel (Aqua too) |
| 21:08.33 | Dashkal | Swing and SWT both have good followings |
| 21:08.57 | Dashkal | QT is trying to join the fray with Jambi, but I'm _really_ unimpressed with QT4 |
| 21:09.20 | Dashkal | I think GTK may have some true java bindings, but I'd rather just use SWT |
| 21:10.03 | nevcairiel | I learned java with 1.3 iirc, so i might still be corrupted by that, havent really been following java development, short of downloading new versions all the time :P |
| 21:10.10 | Dashkal | Oh dear god I'm so sorry |
| 21:10.15 | Dashkal | java 1.3 was epic fail |
| 21:10.34 | Dashkal | 1.4 was an amazing improvement over 1.3 and it was still fail :p |
| 21:10.43 | nevcairiel | 1.4 was still damn slow |
| 21:10.51 | nevcairiel | if 6 is pretty fast now, its all better |
| 21:10.57 | Dashkal | 1.5 cleaned things up. But sadly they screwed up generics. (Generics are a half-assed implementation of C++ templates). |
| 21:11.05 | Dashkal | 1.6 just made 1.5 tighter |
| 21:11.11 | Dashkal | 1.7 is a big question mark right now |
| 21:11.16 | Dashkal | still in development |
| 21:11.43 | Dashkal | 1.5/1.6 is when I started hearing about java exceeding c++ in terms of performance |
| 21:11.54 | Dashkal | thats when the scheduling and GC code really started to shine |
| 21:11.58 | nevcairiel | I even know what generics are, used Vector classes in my university assignments :P |
| 21:12.24 | Dashkal | Generics are a good idea that failed amazingly due to "backwords compatability" |
| 21:12.55 | Dashkal | They're implemented by erasure. No type information at runtime. So you can just ignore the generic parameter and not have a runtime error |
| 21:13.09 | Dashkal | Until of course something uses that object and gets a random ClassCastException *sighs* |
| 21:13.42 | nevcairiel | heh |
| 21:13.53 | nevcairiel | some of the concepts are nice and easy |
| 21:14.12 | nevcairiel | i mean i love the Vector for storing stuff, who needs arrays anymore =P |
| 21:14.22 | Dashkal | Right now they're working on closures. They had better do this one fully or not at all. They do another erasure mistake and ... well, I may just give up java and move on to scala or groovy :p |
| 21:14.47 | Dashkal | But so far the community seems to agree with my sentimate. Do it right or leave it out. One or the other |
| 21:15.00 | Dashkal | java's collection framework is amazing. |
| 21:15.39 | Dashkal | To the point where if I find myself without it, I end up trying to reimplemnt it. |
| 21:15.45 | Dashkal | (Yes, I do this in lua :p ) |
| 21:15.50 | nevcairiel | lol |
| 21:16.01 | vhaarr | you shouldn't use Vectors unless you are in a multithreaded application that can access the list from more than 1 thread at a time |
| 21:16.04 | Dashkal | The one thing I don't have in Lua yet is a java.util.List |
| 21:16.05 | vhaarr | use a List instead |
| 21:16.19 | Dashkal | LinkedList and ArrayList should be used in favour of Vector, yes |
| 21:16.31 | Dashkal | (which one specifically depends on if you tend to iterate or use random access) |
| 21:16.42 | nevcairiel | I use whatever data structures the interfaces expect me to use for the stupid assignments *shrug |
| 21:16.58 | nevcairiel | I suppose we'll use them all |
| 21:17.01 | Dashkal | Vector implements List, so does LinkedList and ArrayList (and a few other classes) |
| 21:17.02 | nevcairiel | to illustrate the usage |
| 21:17.27 | Dashkal | Ideally you should just pick the correct one for performance reasons at construction time and just assign it to a reference of type List |
| 21:17.42 | vhaarr | there's no usage difference, the difference lies in the fact that Vector locks on access |
| 21:17.57 | Dashkal | It's frowned upon to use LinkedList or ArrayList directly unless you actually need the extra methods on those classes. Usage of the interface itself is preferred |
| 21:17.58 | vhaarr | which is an expensive operation |
| 21:19.53 | nevcairiel | Oh well, maybe i'll actually think better of java once the java class is done with me :P |
| 21:20.00 | Dashkal | But then, you're using the language for a class, which means you aren't going to be using it in anything resembling a real-world fashion :p |
| 21:20.37 | nevcairiel | our tasks are usually pretty good to show the strong points of a language |
| 21:20.55 | nevcairiel | but then again, the class is about usage of object-oriented design |
| 21:20.58 | nevcairiel | not java in general |
| 21:21.05 | Dashkal | the "Java mentality" is really big on design patterns and such. Use of interfaces instead of implementations. Principle of least knowledge. That kind of thing. It's more about the design than the implementation |
| 21:21.32 | nevcairiel | i actually have a second class software design which deals with design patterns and stuff like that |
| 21:21.39 | nevcairiel | based on java |
| 21:21.57 | Dashkal | You'll find that Java lends itself to design patterns better than less abstracted languages like C and C++. |
| 21:22.08 | Dashkal | There's less overhead implementing the pattern |
| 21:22.33 | Dashkal | That said, 4th gen languages (python, lua, scala, groovy, etc) tend to make it even easier. It's a trade-off |
| 21:22.43 | Dashkal | I like my static typing :p |
| 21:23.48 | nevcairiel | I dont see the strong userbase/community for those new languages yet |
| 21:24.04 | Dashkal | I find it to be a good compromise. I get some of the niceities of abstracted languages (GC first and foremost, reflection, etc) with the stability offered by less abstraction (static typing) |
| 21:24.31 | Dashkal | groovy and scala are large. Ruby is very large. PHP gets lots of work. Perl is a religion. |
| 21:24.44 | nevcairiel | PHP tend to be ugly code |
| 21:24.51 | nevcairiel | Perl is complex code :P |
| 21:24.52 | Dashkal | I hate php for that reason |
| 21:25.07 | Dashkal | Perl is very much with the excessive learning curve |
| 21:25.13 | Dashkal | It's really easy when you're really good |
| 21:25.30 | Elsia | perl keeps up the tradition of awk and sed that way :P |
| 21:25.31 | nevcairiel | And Ruby .. mm .. i tried ruby for a weekend or so |
| 21:25.35 | Dashkal | $_; s/foo/bar; print $_ is not for me |
| 21:25.45 | nevcairiel | couldnt really get myself to like it |
| 21:26.02 | Dashkal | The only 4th gen languages I've learned are Perl, Python, PHP, and Lua |
| 21:26.16 | Dashkal | Basic I'd like to pretend I never learned :p |
| 21:26.21 | nevcairiel | I know PHP pretty well, and Lua, well of course |
| 21:26.35 | Elsia | so 4th generation basically stands for script language that requires contracts/testing for safety? |
| 21:26.42 | Dashkal | I used to use PHP, but then I learned java and just use it since the knowledge applies |
| 21:26.59 | nevcairiel | I still use PHP alot for webdev |
| 21:27.00 | Dashkal | I'm using it to describe dynamic languages |
| 21:27.04 | Dashkal | I might be abusing the term |
| 21:27.14 | Elsia | the ML crowd would be offended :D |
| 21:27.29 | Dashkal | 1st is binary. 2nd is assembly, 3rd is c/c++ (java is 3.5) 4th is perl/python/etc |
| 21:27.36 | Dashkal | as I'm using them |
| 21:27.45 | Dashkal | ask someone else and you'll get a different definition most likely :p |
| 21:27.47 | ckknight | what would python with psyco be? |
| 21:27.49 | ckknight | :-P |
| 21:27.53 | Elsia | i see.. well not exactly how they teach it in academic programming languages classes |
| 21:28.06 | Dashkal | please enlighten me, I'd rather be more correct :p |
| 21:28.18 | Dashkal | what is psyco? |
| 21:28.30 | Elsia | certainly it's more like assemble->pre dijkstra goto languages->procedural->locical->oo->strongly typed->etc |
| 21:28.35 | ckknight | psyco compiles some python code down to x86 binary |
| 21:28.45 | Dashkal | ahh |
| 21:28.55 | Dashkal | I don't tend to count those :p |
| 21:29.02 | Dashkal | I just call em hybrids |
| 21:29.08 | Dashkal | mmm, gcj |
| 21:29.38 | Dashkal | gcc's release cycle sucks. gcj was upgraded to support current language features two years ago. It still isn't in any mainline release |
| 21:30.08 | nevcairiel | Hm does how a language is compiled actually matter for the level of code abstraction? |
| 21:30.15 | Dashkal | and maintaining two gcc installs of different versions is not something I ever want to experience again |
| 21:30.36 | Dashkal | nevcairiel: I don't know about psyco, but some of the tools I've seen of that sort impose restrictions on what abstractions you can use |
| 21:30.44 | nevcairiel | oh |
| 21:31.00 | Dashkal | some early java compiliers, for example, didn't support java.lang.reflect.* at all |
| 21:31.19 | nevcairiel | Well yeah that changes stuff then |
| 21:34.08 | nevcairiel | Are the any real good books about java (more recent versions preferred :P) ? |
| 21:34.31 | Dashkal | dead tree books? Not sure I've seen much for 1.6 |
| 21:35.11 | Dashkal | I get pretty much all of my information line |
| 21:35.14 | Dashkal | online* |
| 21:35.28 | Dashkal | I always have a browser tab on the jdk api docs :p |
| 21:35.39 | Dashkal | <3 javadoc |
| 21:36.03 | Dashkal | hmm, must poke at freenet again |
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| 21:36.31 | nevcairiel | I suppose java is more like a learn-online language :P |
| 21:36.43 | Dashkal | the real 0.7 is out, complete with open mode. I don't know anybody who admits to using it. It made the older betas of 0.7 a tad hard to use. |
| 21:37.07 | Dashkal | There are certainly books on the subject, but I so rarely look for them I haven't come across anything current |
| 21:37.17 | nevcairiel | freenet? |
| 21:37.24 | *** join/#curseforge Tinyboom (n=nahh@180.84-49-87.nextgentel.com) |
| 21:37.25 | Dashkal | http://freenetproject.org/ |
| 21:37.38 | Dashkal | partial inspiration for Nexus, actually (though I'm not making Nexus anonymous) |
| 21:38.14 | Dashkal | Freenet is an online, anonymous, distributed filesystem. |
| 21:39.31 | nevcairiel | sounds like warez-sharing |
| 21:39.39 | Tuller | you mean, kiddie porn |
| 21:39.55 | Dashkal | Those exist, but that's nowhere near all of what you find there |
| 21:40.10 | Dashkal | actually, the cp kind of segregated itself off the main network |
| 21:40.37 | Dashkal | they all darknet amongst themselves with few connections to the public network, so you don't run across it as much unless you seek it out |
| 21:40.59 | nevcairiel | i see |
| 21:41.24 | Dashkal | in the 0.5 days (before the darknet code) it was pretty bad. |
| 21:41.48 | Tuller | nevcairiel: you really should just do what i did with bongos and just implement a showstate thingy |
| 21:41.59 | nevcairiel | i know |
| 21:42.01 | Tuller | instant [combat] bars |
| 21:42.01 | Dashkal | warez is there, but only so much. freenet is pretty slow (that anonymity comes at a steep latency price) so it isn't exactly preferred |
| 21:42.18 | Dashkal | You tend to find interesting things there, like code leaks :p |
| 21:42.20 | nevcairiel | Tuller: i only figured out i could just use state-visibility without additional code yesterday =P |
| 21:42.28 | Tuller | yeah |
| 21:42.32 | Zyuu | Like the leaked Lineage 3 code |
| 21:43.04 | Dashkal | My interest was more in its design than any real need for an anonymous filesystem, though |
| 21:43.15 | Dashkal | I find it absolutely facinating how it does things |
| 21:44.47 | Tuller | I always run around with the crazy idea of "kill off bongos3 in favor of bartender4, if it was bongos2.5", followed by "write bongos 3 as an infinite action bar addon" |
| 21:44.51 | nevcairiel | Heh that Pimp My UI guy from the wow forums wants to interview me |
| 21:45.04 | Tuller | I think I was last week or the week before |
| 21:45.18 | Dashkal | Tuller: Bongos is yours? Or am I just crazy? |
| 21:45.26 | Tuller | bongos is mine |
| 21:45.28 | Dashkal | kk |
| 21:45.38 | Dashkal | too bad I didn't know that when i was getting all the strange paging issues |
| 21:45.40 | nevcairiel | Tuller: we should just join forces and write bongtender :P |
| 21:45.47 | Tuller | something like that |
| 21:46.00 | Allara | that name is funny on so many levels |
| 21:46.01 | Tuller | actually the only issue I have with bartender 4 from my usage is the whole lack of right click menus :P |
| 21:46.04 | Kolie | nevcairiel you sir owe me a new keyboard |
| 21:46.26 | nevcairiel | Tuller: i dont want to write crazy dropdown code :( |
| 21:46.28 | Dashkal | I'm hoping cnc does a good job with fb3, actually. I'm ready to take the power tradeoff again :p |
| 21:46.50 | Tuller | nevcairiel: that's why my menu code is not bad :P |
| 21:46.51 | nevcairiel | Kolie: what happend ? =P |
| 21:47.05 | Kolie | the coke in my nostrils emitted to my keyboard. |
| 21:47.23 | Tuller | coke as in soda? :P |
| 21:47.27 | Kolie | yes. |
| 21:47.36 | Dashkal | hmm, I wonder if I can convince cnc to support "partial profiles" so I can manage the trick I have with bt3... bt3 stores everything in the profile, but is nice enough to have the paging rules per-class |
| 21:47.51 | Dashkal | or per-char, dunno, don't care. it works wonderfully |
| 21:48.10 | Dashkal | so I get the same layout and my bars page correctly no matter what char I'm on :D |
| 21:48.16 | nevcairiel | I started really planning BT4, but i refactored so much stuff during development that some parts already hurt me again |
| 21:48.22 | nevcairiel | guess i'll clean that up at some point :P |
| 21:48.28 | Kolie | bt5 woooo |
| 21:49.01 | nevcairiel | I always want to write stuff dynamic and easily extensible |
| 21:49.06 | nevcairiel | but that comes with a price :( |
| 21:49.16 | Tuller | truth |
| 21:49.42 | Dashkal | I thought bt and bongos both had a pretty good flexibility/ease-of-use tradeoff |
| 21:50.10 | Dashkal | they do what they do very well, and if you want complete flexibility go with flexbar and deal with the added learning curve |
| 21:50.21 | Tuller | bongos3 is limited only by the 120 button thing I think |
| 21:50.38 | Dashkal | looks embarrased |
| 21:50.43 | Dashkal | I actually managed to run out of actionids |
| 21:50.59 | Tuller | yeah that happens because I have no set method of repeating IDs |
| 21:51.12 | nevcairiel | some people always want more then 12 buttons per bar |
| 21:51.18 | nevcairiel | but paging gets so damn difficult with that |
| 21:51.23 | Dashkal | I just have too many action bars, and I'm not very efficeint in my use of them |
| 21:51.28 | Tuller | hence why I wrote my crazy system :P |
| 21:51.52 | Dashkal | I have four bars stacked one atop the other, and two of them page with my druid form. |
| 21:51.55 | Dashkal | you run out quickly that way |
| 21:51.58 | ckknight | Bongtender sounds interesting |
| 21:52.02 | ckknight | dude, wait what? |
| 21:52.09 | Dashkal | It's a mess |
| 21:52.13 | ckknight | ...dude |
| 21:52.33 | Tuller | I have my main bar (druid forms + alt/help heal + a single page for extra stuff) |
| 21:52.37 | Tuller | + two more extra bars |
| 21:52.51 | Dashkal | I like having two page with my form. It lets me fit all my kitty skills on the paging bars |
| 21:53.12 | Dashkal | the two above the paging pair are mostly dupes of my caster form, actually. So I can one-click-cast out of form |
| 21:53.44 | Tuller | and that's what I did not expect people to have |
| 21:53.51 | Dashkal | It's a real mess, but it works. And I won't find another way unless I sit down and seriously rethink things |
| 21:54.06 | Tuller | and that's why people want me to change the system :P |
| 21:54.37 | Dashkal | Eh, I'm thinking I'm doing this bizarrely enough that I'm better off just switching to a more advanced system. |
| 21:54.58 | Dashkal | So eventaully I'm just going to redo my UI so it can work on blizzard bars and use FB for my gaming rig |
| 21:55.15 | Tuller | I think you could do what you want, if you limited yourself to having the druid skills as a modifier bar |
| 21:55.27 | Tuller | so the noform/also a modifier display |
| 21:55.31 | Dashkal | The problem with the druid is the cat has more than 12 skills |
| 21:55.32 | Tuller | or some sort of targeting stuff |
| 21:55.42 | Dashkal | they just don't fit on a single stance bar |
| 21:55.48 | Tuller | a cat does not have more than 12 skills :P |
| 21:56.01 | Dashkal | nevermind shred/mang/rip you :p |
| 21:56.10 | Dashkal | I actually use rake from time to time in pvp to mess up rogues |
| 21:56.25 | Tuller | just macro the stealth skills |
| 21:56.36 | Dashkal | that'll work fine for those two, but I still run out of room |
| 21:56.43 | Tuller | alternatively, use the prowl bar |
| 21:57.12 | Tuller | super crazy alternatively, rewrite the state header :) |
| 21:57.37 | Tuller | which would be the equivalent to using flexbar, I think |
| 21:57.42 | Dashkal | I want on my bar attack, mangle, shred, (pounce/ravage), rake, FB, rip, maim, tiger's fury (I use it from time to time for an extra kick on ravage), feral FF (oh god yes), ... what else |
| 21:57.51 | Dashkal | heh, pretty much |
| 21:58.00 | Dashkal | no need to do it myself with FB around |
| 21:58.05 | Tuller | I see your issue :p |
| 21:58.08 | Tuller | you have an attack button :P |
| 21:58.09 | Dashkal | Fb slash commands are less arcane than secure templates |
| 21:58.25 | Dashkal | I do, cause sometimes I find myself energy constrained and I need to autoattack at least |
| 21:58.33 | Dashkal | chain-pulling does that to me a lot |
| 21:58.58 | Tuller | bongos actually reads a file to determine what stances it knows about/the right click menu stuff |
| 21:59.00 | Dashkal | heh, stealth itself |
| 21:59.16 | Tuller | which is basically an ordered list of macro conditions |
| 21:59.33 | Dashkal | and so I don't fuck up muscle memory, FF and stealth have to be on the same slot as FF and shadowmeld |
| 22:00.06 | Dashkal | I try to as much as possible stick similar powers on the same keys. mangle and moonfire, for example |
| 22:00.12 | Tuller | also, that's 11 skills :) |
| 22:00.20 | Dashkal | Yeah, I'm missing some |
| 22:00.25 | Dashkal | but I can't see my UI right now |
| 22:00.39 | Dashkal | I think the only skill that isn't on my bar is claw |
| 22:00.50 | Dashkal | oh yeah, two powershifting macros :p |
| 22:00.53 | Dashkal | one with pot, one without |
| 22:01.06 | Dashkal | mmm, powershifting mangle spam |
| 22:03.02 | Dashkal | I'm probably going to keep the dual stance bars, but I could completely remove the top to bars with a trick like alt-makes-it-caster-form |
| 22:04.23 | Dashkal | is that actually possible with bt or bongos? a bar that shifts with stance/form and with a modifier key? |
| 22:04.31 | Tuller | yes |
| 22:04.33 | Dashkal | woot |
| 22:04.53 | Tuller | at least in bongos, I've set modifier keys to have a higher precedence than stances |
| 22:05.13 | Dashkal | *nods* I need to look at bongos again. Now that I know who to pester if I can ever replicate that damn stance bug |
| 22:06.15 | Dashkal | But I'm really thinking I should just go with fb3 when it comes out so I can do fancy stuff like dynamic buff bars and such just how I want them :p |
| 22:10.26 | Zhinjio | hey Tuller, I have a question for you |
| 22:10.34 | Zhinjio | Re: page switching |
| 22:10.42 | Tuller | yes? |
| 22:10.53 | Zhinjio | I believe this is a nuance of the way action paging happens in wow, but anyway... |
| 22:11.07 | Zhinjio | ok, so my "typical" scenario is to have 2 action pages for a bar. |
| 22:11.26 | Zhinjio | and I use the "next action bar" key to simply switch back and forth between the two pages |
| 22:11.46 | Tuller | disable the extra action bars in interface options :P |
| 22:12.05 | Zhinjio | so on the "paging" config, it will be like 2, 1, 2, 1, 2 |
| 22:12.14 | Zhinjio | and that works great, for most classes. |
| 22:12.52 | Zhinjio | for I believe... my hunter and maybe my lock as well ... when I page through, it hits one of the pages "twice" in the rotation |
| 22:13.06 | Zhinjio | in other words, it behaves differently for different classes |
| 22:13.19 | Tuller | yeah |
| 22:13.30 | Zhinjio | oh, soryr... didn't read what you said. Um... hmm, lemme check. |
| 22:13.34 | Tuller | that should be based on just what extra action bars are enabled |
| 22:13.46 | Tuller | because blizzard uses that to determine what pages are available for well...paging :P |
| 22:14.07 | Zhinjio | ok, chekcing my hunter... I didn't have any extra ones enabled on the toon I was just on. |
| 22:15.32 | Zhinjio | whoa. my hunter had like 4 bars. ok, lemme get rid of those, reload, and see how it behaves. |
| 22:18.26 | Tuller | yeah, I don't disable those due to tainting reasons |
| 22:19.49 | Zhinjio | OMG. |
| 22:19.53 | Zhinjio | <3 |
| 22:19.58 | Zhinjio | thats awesome. |
| 22:20.05 | Zhinjio | that was pretty darned annoying. |
| 22:20.13 | Zhinjio | thank you |
| 22:20.40 | Zhinjio | now if I can just find toadkiller long enough to figure out why my autobar is disappearing, I'll be all set |
| 22:22.01 | Dashkal | mutters about toadkiller |
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| 23:14.26 | Dashkal | mwrarf |
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| 23:51.14 | Dashkal | How possible would it be to build a secondary repos for related tools that are related to, but not part of, the main project? I'm thinking things like the source to an rsa key generator tool to be offered but not be part of Nexus. |
| 23:52.48 | Dashkal | (or, more evilly, a fuse module so I can mount the Nexus data store as a filesystem... muahahaha) |
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