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| 00:16.20 | *** topic/#card10badge is Logix (Wiki): https://card10.badge.events.ccc.de/ git: https://git.card10.badge.events.ccc.de/card10 % current version: https://card10.badge.events.ccc.de/en/firmwareupdate/ % Display: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000018872259.html |
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| 06:03.52 | overflo23[m] | Stormwind_mobile: looking at the design fiels wont help. |
| 06:04.25 | overflo23[m] | i am trying to make an app with the existing hardware, but if i have to modify it, people would not be able to use it. |
| 06:08.08 | Stormwind_mobile | Hello? We are hackers! :-) |
| 06:10.49 | Stormwind_mobile | The card10 isn't a shippable product, rather designed to be modified and extended. Its also not too hard do nudge some solder bridges around, when you know where. |
| 06:12.58 | Stormwind_mobile | There was a story about a graphics card some years ago, where, if you moved one SMD resistor from one pad to the other, you got double the memory bandwidth for free. Made a lot of gamers that never touched a soldering iron grab one and learn how to do it. |
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| 06:50.30 | overflo23[m] | all fine and good. overflo23 can i somehow use ONLY the bottom electrode or is the second channel mandatory to get a useable signal? |
| 06:50.56 | overflo23[m] | i think thats not answered yet or did i overread it? |
| 07:08.24 | Xiretza | overflo23[m]: it's an ECG, it measures the potential between two electrodes. you can use the same principle for an EOG (by measuring the potential between the left and right side of the eye), but it's almost certainly not going to work well with one electrode floating. |
| 08:13.23 | Stormwind_mobile | overflo23[m]: no, it's a differential signal with amplitudes in the sub-mV range. One contact would basically mean "antenna", so you'd pick up everything that's floating around in the RF spectrum, mostly 50Hz. |
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| 10:35.06 | *** topic/#card10badge is Logix (Wiki): https://card10.badge.events.ccc.de/ git: https://git.card10.badge.events.ccc.de/card10 % current version: https://card10.badge.events.ccc.de/en/firmwareupdate/ % Display: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000018872259.html |
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| 10:53.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~botsnack |
| 10:53.40 | infobot | DocScrutinizer05: aw, gee |
| 11:11.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | overflo23[m]: you most likely want to use the electrode kit attached to USB for EOG |
| 11:14.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | heck, no search at https://card10.badge.events.ccc.de/ ? |
| 11:16.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://www.startpage.com/do/dsearch?query=site%3Acard10.badge.events.ccc.de+electrode+kit&cat=web to the rescue: overflo23[m] see https://card10.badge.events.ccc.de/en/ecg_kit_assembly/ |
| 11:24.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~#card10badge ECG-Cable is https://card10.badge.events.ccc.de/en/ecg_kit_assembly/ |
| 11:24.50 | infobot | DocScrutinizer05: okay |
| 11:26.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~#card10badge electrode kit is <reply>see #card10badge ECG-Cable |
| 11:26.26 | infobot | DocScrutinizer05: okay |
| 11:27.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~electrode kit |
| 11:27.15 | infobot | somebody said #card10badge ecg-cable was https://card10.badge.events.ccc.de/en/ecg_kit_assembly/ |
| 11:30.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~listvalues ecg |
| 11:45.25 | overflo23[m] | Ah thank you very much for that information. |
| 11:45.31 | overflo23[m] | i was missing the differential signal part |
| 11:46.46 | overflo23[m] | so it is not possible with the stock hardware and needs some modification of the hardware / additional eck kit assembly/hardware. i wont be able to spend that much time on this venture :( |
| 12:14.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | overflo23[m]: as I understand it, he USB attached electrode accessory doesn't need any modifications of card10 itself, the inputs get switched by hardware mux chips |
| 12:16.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | the electrode accessory kit as sold at cccamp however needs assembly like explained in https://card10.badge.events.ccc.de/en/ecg_kit_assembly/ |
| 12:18.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | you need some electrodes next to eyes for EOG anyway, it's obviously comletely impossible to sense REM by a device worn at your wrist |
| 12:18.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | what been your plans regarding those electrodes? |
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| 15:57.43 | overflo23[m] | my plan was to wear the car10 right above my nose, between my eyes on a headband and use some sensor to detect eye movement. since the ecg sensor needs a differential signal it will not work this way. my previous half successful reads appear to be noise that i taught to be useable data. obviously that conclusion was wrong. if nobody comes up with another idea how i could detect eyemovement with the stock hardware i |
| 15:57.43 | overflo23[m] | am not going to spend more time on this venture. i am busy building blinkenpoi anyway :) |
| 17:26.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, sounds like a feasible approach. the two wristband electrodes should be capable of picking up local muscle signals |
| 17:45.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | though I'm not sure about the DNP Rs. Anyway I'd think wearing electrodes us more comfortable and robust than wearing card10 on top of your nose while sleeping. The amount of work needed to modfy stuff seems equivalent between electrode kit and a headband |
| 17:45.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | is* |
| 17:49.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | schneider: what is the actual state of the TWO ECG chips' input routing? regarding DNP jumpers etc |
| 17:50.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | I absolutely failed to read from schematics to which signal or rail the two bottom electrodes are connected |
| 17:52.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | also which of the max30001 max86150 is currently in use by ECG app? |
| 17:52.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | I gather it must be 30001 |
| 17:56.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | assumption: harmonic TP1/2 are the exposed goldplated finger contacts - those however according to schem are not routed to 30001 |
| 17:57.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | and should be left/right finger to make sense. So one of both should actually get routed to wristband steel electrode(s) |
| 17:58.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | and not get used by righthand finger |
| 18:00.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooh, found R1 |
| 18:01.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | puzzling :-) |
| 18:02.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | also found R11 DNP, even more puzzling |
| 18:09.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | could we get a schematics excerpt showing complete ECG input paths in one consecutive display? ECG_N bridged by R8 to ECG_P_SWITCHED_WRIST but then blocked by R11 DNP puzzles some neurons outa my active pool ;-D |
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| 18:37.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | weird enough I get best signal (actually excellent S/N) when putting left hand fingers on lower wristband steel electrode and right finger on omne of the (now found to be connected) finger cobtacts left and right of OxiPulse Sensor. Bizarre: the lower wristband and fingerpad electrodes would be same signal line if there wasn't that plastic spacer on LED3 |
| 18:38.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | so all I can think of is wristband lower _should_ be uncinnected sue to nylon spacer, but evidently it isn't |
| 18:39.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | unconnected due to* |
| 18:40.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | wuth wristband upper and fingerpads the S/N is magnitudes worse |
| 18:58.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | I see, wb upper = ecg common mode |
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| 20:44.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | schneider: to "clean up" the schematics, is forking hardware (https://git.card10.badge.events.ccc.de/Joerg_rw/hardware/tree/master) and then eventually posting a MR the way to go? |
| 20:52.38 | schneider | rahix[m]: do we still have the option to do a "plain" synchronous printf? |
| 20:53.19 | schneider | DocScrutinizer05: yes |
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| 21:01.06 | cbmainz[m] | Hi, my display is broken and I got a new one. But how do I change it actully? |
| 21:03.08 | cbmainz[m] | Is there a guid somewere for this? |
| 21:05.02 | schneider | rahix[m]: ok, found a way |
| 21:06.14 | schneider | cbmainz[m]: i usually use a big ball of solder and drag it along the contacts until the whole flex comes off |
| 21:06.27 | schneider | advice: wear eye protection |
| 21:12.50 | cbmainz[m] | Do I solder it back on? |
| 21:20.33 | schneider | yes |
| 21:31.21 | cbmainz[m] | Okay, thanks |
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| 21:40.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | ponders testing anisotropic conductive sticky tape for such jobs |
| 21:43.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://www.sparkfun.com/products/retired/12042 https://www.digikey.de/catalog/en/partgroup/9703-series/9987?_ga=2.38429732.660587467.1569015738-206104645.1569015738 |
| 21:44.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/296669O/3mtm-anisotropic-conductive-film-adhesive-get-connected.pdf |
| 21:52.30 | cbmainz[m] | Thanks |
| 21:52.41 | cbmainz[m] | I will have a look on this |
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| 22:51.51 | Stormwind_mobile | DocScrutinizer05: the ecg routing is a bit covoluted, indeed. |
| 22:51.51 | Stormwind_mobile | E.g. the two finger electrodes are both connected to the same signal, which makes sense. I'm not completely sure if the nylon spacer is there by design or if that's a botch. |
| 22:54.30 | Stormwind_mobile | I have to look into the schematics again to make sure, but I think it's possible to reroute the electrodes such as they connect to the pulsoxy chip is connected instead of the max30001. Maybe even one finger electrode to one chip, the other to the other chip. |
| 22:57.42 | Stormwind_mobile | overflo23[m]: its also possible that the use case you proposed would be enabled by swapping one resistor. On the other hand, I'd vote for an elastic band with electrodes via USBC instead of wearing the card10 on your forehead. Also, I think that getting the software part right is much more work than the exact hardware connection, as there are multiple solutions, anyway. |
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| 23:43.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | ack@all |
| 23:45.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | >>but I think it's possible to reroute the electrodes<< yes, seems to be the case, along harmonic R4,5,6,7,8 |
| 23:45.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | R10,11 |
| 23:50.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | fundam. R523,524 |
| 23:51.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | no idea what's ECG_BI[P|M] and ECG_DRV[P|M], offsheets to nowhere |
| 23:53.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | https://i.imgur.com/7VDzGrZ.png |
| 23:59.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | what seems pretty much nailed down regarding electrode routing is the VCM common mode upper wristband electrode |
