IRC log for #bzflag on 20180517

00:12.13*** join/#bzflag Zehra (~Zehra@unaffiliated/zehra)
00:22.53*** join/#bzflag infobot (ibot@rikers.org)
00:22.53*** topic/#bzflag is https://BZFlag.org || http://ohloh.net/p/bzflag || https://bzflag.org/help || Channel Logs: http://infobot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/ || 2.4.14 released! https://forums.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=19953
00:22.53*** mode/#bzflag [+v infobot] by ChanServ
00:26.35*** join/#bzflag Zehra (~Zehra@unaffiliated/zehra)
02:34.17*** join/#bzflag infobot (ibot@rikers.org)
02:34.17*** topic/#bzflag is https://BZFlag.org || http://ohloh.net/p/bzflag || https://bzflag.org/help || Channel Logs: http://infobot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/ || 2.4.14 released! https://forums.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=19953
02:34.17*** mode/#bzflag [+v infobot] by ChanServ
03:05.35*** join/#bzflag Juesto (~nick@unaffiliated/juest)
03:05.59Juestois there a way to search for a specific player?
03:06.41ZehraIn BZFlag or in IRC?
03:06.54Juestobzf
03:07.04Juestoand hi
03:07.42ZehraHi Juesto, there's a few ways you can search for a specific player in BZFlag.
03:08.12ZehraIf they are registered, the forums provide a function for searching for a specific member.
03:08.48ZehraYou'll be able to get their BZID and add them to global groups or banlists..etc.
03:09.11ZehraIf they are not registered, you can search on Strayer's
03:09.46Juestoonly way to use windowed is via cmdline?
03:10.42ZehraI'm a bit lost...
03:11.02Juesto:(
03:11.12ZehraAre you trying to run BZFlag in windowed mode, so it doesn't take full screen? :/
03:11.22ZehraOr BZFS?
03:11.28Juestobzflag
03:11.57JuestoAnd where do i see about members playing on a certain server on the forums
03:13.32ZehraCurrently, it is not possible to see if a player is playing on certain server on forums.
03:14.27ZehraHere's a link to Strayer's though, and it is possible to see who is playing on what server: http://www.bzstats.strayer.de/players/?lang=en
03:14.36RoscoePColtraneyou can always use F1 to to toggle between full screen and windowed
03:16.13ZehraThere is one setting which allows you to start BZFlag in windowed mode though.
03:16.27Zehra-window widthxheight
03:16.27Zehra<PROTECTED>
03:16.50Juestothat's commandline, and config?
03:17.07RoscoePColtraneyes, that's a command-line
03:17.34RoscoePColtranewhat platform are you using?
03:17.56Juestohow about config*
03:18.12Juestoim on fedora and im unable to switch windows
03:19.07RoscoePColtraneF1 puts you in window mode
03:19.17RoscoePColtranealt-tab will switch applications
03:19.53RoscoePColtranethere is a config setting "mouseClamp" that I think constrains the mouse to stay in the window
03:20.06Juestoi tried alt tab and it didnt work
03:20.17Juestoon bzflag
03:20.24JuestoWM works fine
03:20.31RoscoePColtraneare you full screen or windowed?
03:20.37Juestofull
03:20.45RoscoePColtraneyou have to be windowed to switch
03:20.48RoscoePColtranehit F1
03:20.51RoscoePColtranethen try it
03:20.51Juesto:/
03:21.30ZehraCheck your key bindings...
03:21.44RoscoePColtranegood point
03:21.53Juestoill just use iconify then
03:22.08ZehraOptions->Input Settings->Change Key Mappings
03:22.12Juestoi know
03:22.52ZehraSearch for "full screen" there and check the bindings.
03:23.02JuestoAlready did, Zehra
03:23.07Juestosorted
03:23.53RoscoePColtraneso you are saying iconify works and fullscreen doesn't?
03:24.13Juestono, they work, i just decided to not bind it, RoscoePColtrane
03:26.06ZehraI guess most of us tend to sort of 'disable' certain key bindings. :)
03:29.37RoscoePColtranemost of us?
03:30.51ZehraI'm not sure, but I'm assuming most will change or alter the default configurations with key bindings like autopilot, iconify, full screen and a few others.
03:30.56Juesto:p
03:31.13Juestooverall useless, :)
03:31.29Zehrahehe, yup. :)
03:32.11RoscoePColtraneuseless doesn't matter unless you need the keys for something else
03:34.16ZehraIt's why we have configurations, to make the perfect match for every player. :)
03:48.36macsformeI think someone pointed this out, but on macOS if you ask for a compatibility context you will only get OpenGL 2.1... if you ask for core, you will get the latest supported by the OS (up to 4.1)
03:49.13macsformeso we cannot do a gradual migration with OpenGL 3.0, for example
03:52.20Juestoand it seems to be degraded, lacking some features
03:52.51macsformeas for choosing GL 2 versus 3, I think 2 is the more conservative/safer choice, but the flip side of that is even less consistency in our rendering code as we add some newer features alongside some very old rendering techniques
03:55.08macsformemigrating straight to GL 3 gives us an opportunity to bring in some new features while also overhauling all the old stuff (because we are forced to touch everything)
03:55.43RoscoePColtrane"ask for"?
03:56.52macsformeif we have the operational will power to go deep and gut our rendering code, I think GL 3 (3.2 specifically) has the best potential payoff
03:57.06macsformebut I am fine with either choice
03:58.13macsformeRoscoePColtrane: when we create the context, we ask the OS for a core context or a compatibility context (in SDL 2, anyway)
03:58.44RoscoePColtranebut GL 4 is out?
04:00.06macsformeI don't know of any features in GL 4 that would be so critical to us that we should require that version
04:00.29RoscoePColtranebut if we are undertaking a major migration, why not go to the latest version?
04:02.05macsformebecause the benefits would be negligible, and the cost would be the loss of support for older machines which are otherwise perfectly capable of running the game
04:02.37RoscoePColtranethat's always a difficult tension
04:03.27macsformeit looks like OpenGL 4 would require macOS 10.9 or above
04:07.04JuestoGo ogl2 then
04:07.09Juestoand target 10.5
04:07.25Juestomin supported target*
04:07.53RoscoePColtrane10.9 isn't that high
04:07.59RoscoePColtrane10.13 is current
04:08.14RoscoePColtranetakes a note to upgrade
04:14.17Juestoafaik since 10.10 apple has degraded performance in gamig
04:14.19Juestogaming*
07:02.16*** join/#bzflag infobot (ibot@rikers.org)
07:02.16*** topic/#bzflag is https://BZFlag.org || http://ohloh.net/p/bzflag || https://bzflag.org/help || Channel Logs: http://infobot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/ || 2.4.14 released! https://forums.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=19953
07:02.16*** mode/#bzflag [+v infobot] by ChanServ
10:30.49blast007Juesto: we target 10.7+ right now
10:31.33blast0073.2 would require a 3rd gen core processor or better, at least on Windows
10:31.41blast0072nd gen only supports 3.1
10:35.45*** join/#bzflag AAA_awright (~aaa@2607:5300:60:7d4::1)
11:16.41blast007and supposedly the 3rd gen supports GL4, but glxinfo is only showing 3.3:   OpenGL core profile version string: 3.3 (Core Profile) Mesa 13.0.6
13:35.13blast007I think it's also worth looking at GLFW as an alternative to SDL2.  It handles window creation, GL/GLES context creation, input (keyboard, mouse, joystick), and multiple monitors.  Doesn't do audio, but the intent is to use OpenAL for that.
14:04.58macsformeincidentally, macOS 10.9 is required to use all C++11 features (like std::chrono), so that may be a good baseline for us to pick going forward anyway
14:07.12macsformebut requiring GL 4 across the board would affect the other platforms too, and I don't see any significant benefit for us
14:24.40blast007agreed
16:21.48Juestoah
16:33.56JeffMblast007: 3.2 is probably a reasonable target if you are ok with the platform needs.
16:34.01JeffMit's way better than 1.1 :)
16:35.06blast007I'm sure it will affect some players, but even moving to 2.1 with fancier graphics might make it unplayable for those same players
16:35.23JeffMthey will cope
16:35.35blast007I often see people say they can only get 30FPS in the game :P
16:37.41JeffMif your target is super crap low end machines, write a software renderer.
16:38.03Juestomy laptop does less than 30 on linux
16:38.04blast007BZFlag 3, powered by the Unreal 1 engine
16:38.08Juestowell depends xD
16:38.23JeffMwhat's it do on windows?
16:38.32JeffMhow much of the crap framerates are crap drivers on linux?
16:38.33blast007my raspberry pi can do more than 30FPS :P
16:38.33Juestogot it over 60
16:38.47Juestowith experimental i get less than 30 tho
16:38.50Juestoon high its good
16:39.05blast007what CPU/GPU are you using?
16:41.16Juestoceleron n2840, no gpu
16:41.26Juestowell, igfx
16:44.21blast007ah, so an atom
16:48.53blast007it's unclear if that supports OpenGL 3.2
16:49.43blast007a datasheet for the Z3700/Z3700 mentions OpenGL 3.0, and the ark page for the N2840 lists the graphics as "Intel® HD Graphics for Intel Atom® Processor Z3700 Series"
16:50.45Juestoit supports ogl core 4.2
16:51.00Juestoand ogl (es) 3.0
16:51.18Juestogles1 1.1
16:51.18blast007keep in mind that Mesa may be filling in some of the gaps
16:51.23Juestohm
16:51.43Juestomesa 18.0.2
16:52.18Juestowhy its always 1536mb of (shared) vram
16:52.30blast007so it should at least run, but no idea if it will be faster or slower than our GL 1.2
16:52.49Juestoit does but not so well
16:53.30blast007I mean if we switch to OpenGL 3.2, I'm not sure if that will improve or worsen performance for you
16:53.59*** join/#bzflag nadir (uid134094@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-luxcrvovrevuomdy)
16:54.36Juestomight worsen it
16:55.22blast007it could go either way, really
16:56.57JeffMit all has to get translated to driver calls
16:57.10JeffMall the various GL API's just map into driver code
16:57.53JeffMmy guess is that for most people the G3.2 will be faster if they support it only because the conversion to G3.2 will cleanup BZFlag's rendering code.
16:59.13JeffMmy fear is that sticking with GL 1.5 will actualy hurt low end machines as drivers get optimized for GL3.2 and stuff
16:59.28JeffMand things like the stencil buffer get shunted entirely to software becase nobody uses them anymore.
20:39.46*** join/#bzflag bertman (~bert@unaffiliated/bertman)

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