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| 00:24.19 | *** topic/#bzflag is https://BZFlag.org || http://ohloh.net/p/bzflag || https://bzflag.org/help || Channel Logs: http://infobot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/ || 2.4.10 released! https://forums.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=19401 |
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| 01:28.40 | Zehra | this seems like some interesting functions |
| 01:29.02 | Zehra | bz_SetWorldObjectTangibility |
| 01:29.36 | Zehra | bz_SolidObjectPassableAtributes |
| 01:30.09 | Zehra | bz_GetWorldObjectTangibility |
| 01:30.13 | blast007 | that is only 2.99.x |
| 01:31.04 | Zehra | wished those features would be around |
| 01:31.28 | Zehra | functions* |
| 01:31.47 | blast007 | don't recall if that even worked in 2.99.x |
| 01:32.18 | blast007 | there are other features from 2.99.x that would be better to bring to 2.6 |
| 01:32.53 | blast007 | like the text object and dynamic materials (as in, a plugin can make colors changes) |
| 01:33.20 | Zehra | i read about the text object :) |
| 01:33.33 | Zehra | not sure about color changes though |
| 01:34.35 | Zehra | how is progress on 2.6? |
| 01:34.37 | blast007 | AHOD made use of it originally, iirc, so it could change the color of the base so you knew which to capture |
| 01:34.46 | blast007 | there is no progress on 2.6 |
| 01:36.28 | Zehra | are some of the plug-ins going to be ported from 2.99? |
| 01:36.51 | Zehra | since currently there's no progress on 2.6 |
| 01:37.08 | blast007 | like what? |
| 01:37.21 | blast007 | I think we ported what could be ported |
| 01:40.21 | blast007 | the web plugins aren't going to be useful since I'll probably remove support for HTTP plugins for 2.6, if we can fix the normal in-protocol map sending code to be faster |
| 01:41.51 | Zehra | web plug-ins were interesting ideas |
| 01:42.34 | blast007 | interesting in concept, hard/clunky in practice |
| 01:43.27 | Zehra | i've seen a few ideas which turned out like this in real life |
| 01:44.10 | Zehra | probably the plug-in ideas which prove the most interesting |
| 01:44.35 | Zehra | were ones to allow someone to write a plug-in in another language |
| 01:45.15 | Zehra | like python, ruby and javascript |
| 01:46.25 | blast007 | those have existing in some form over the years, but they were never 100% complete and nobody maintained them |
| 01:49.39 | Zehra | i wonder how complicated it is to update one of them |
| 01:50.22 | blast007 | harder than just writing whatever plugin you want in C++ |
| 01:50.33 | blast007 | it's not just about updating it, it's about *maintaining* it |
| 01:51.59 | blast007 | eventually we may move to a scripting language for our plugins, and right now I don't see a real point of having multiple ways of doing the same thing |
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| 01:52.24 | blast007 | we have enough redundant code as it is |
| 01:52.43 | blast007 | like, we have our own PNG encoder/decoder.. |
| 01:53.10 | Zehra | wow |
| 01:53.20 | blast007 | so I see a big goal of 2.6 as making use of other people's hard work |
| 01:53.42 | blast007 | to be fair, some things we have written didn't exist when we wrote them |
| 01:53.59 | blast007 | (or if they did, they maybe were not available on all platforms that were supported) |
| 01:54.31 | blast007 | BZFlag originally used SGI's .rgb image format |
| 01:54.43 | blast007 | speaking of which, we still have support for that format in our code... :P |
| 01:55.15 | Zehra | oh my |
| 01:55.35 | blast007 | so yeah, a big part of 2.6 can be cleanup and making use of existing third-party libraries like libpng |
| 01:55.51 | blast007 | we have our own 3D sound mixing too :) |
| 01:56.18 | blast007 | so that can be replaced with OpenAL-Soft |
| 01:56.53 | blast007 | our UI could be replaced by MyGUI http://mygui.info/ |
| 01:59.53 | Zehra | seems like so many things could be done |
| 02:00.43 | Zehra | it's nice to see what already has been done |
| 02:06.05 | Zehra | btw will any future changes effect the ability to view replays? |
| 02:07.31 | blast007 | 2.6 will not play 2.4 replays |
| 02:07.37 | blast007 | just like 2.4 did not play 2.0 replays |
| 02:08.39 | Zehra | are any of the replay files available for download? |
| 02:10.01 | Zehra | since some might want to be able to view matches even if they're outdated |
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| 02:15.53 | blast007 | replays haven't been available for download for a long time |
| 02:16.03 | blast007 | since private messages are contained within them |
| 02:16.32 | blast007 | and maybe commands as well |
| 02:16.52 | blast007 | iirc, it was the GU league that used to post replay files for download |
| 02:17.04 | blast007 | then someone found a server password in one of them :) |
| 02:17.49 | Zehra | oh my |
| 02:18.17 | Zehra | so replays are almost like logdetail... |
| 02:18.42 | blast007 | no, they're pretty much literal network packet dumps |
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| 02:18.43 | BZnotify | [13bzflag.org] 15blast007 pushed 1 new commit to 06master: 02https://git.io/v9WA2 |
| 02:18.43 | BZnotify | 13bzflag.org/06master 14cd42862 15Scott Wichser: Document the /msg, /flaghistory, /help, /?, /grouplist, /showgroup, /groupperms, /poll, /vote, /countdown, /modcount, /masterban, /idletime, /lagwarn, /lagdrop, /jitterwarn, /jitterdrop, /packetlosswarn, /packetlossdrop, /set, /reset, /handicap, /reload, /serverdebug, /gameover, /superkill, and /shutdownserver commands. |
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| 02:19.22 | blast007 | but just the application specific part of the packets, not the whole IP packet |
| 02:20.09 | blast007 | generally what is done when there is a new major release is that an old replay server is left online for a period of time to be able to view the old replay files |
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| 02:54.01 | BZnotify | [13bzflag.org] 15blast007 pushed 1 new commit to 06master: 02https://git.io/v9WxB |
| 02:54.01 | BZnotify | 13bzflag.org/06master 142d512b4 15Scott Wichser: Partially document /record and /replay. Also fixed up some fancy quotes. |
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| 02:55.03 | blast007 | If someone could finish the documentation for /record and /replay (including providing some example output for at least some of the subcommands) that would be much appreciated. |
| 02:59.41 | allejo | blast, can you take a look at the api events branch. is that the direction you had in mind? |
| 03:01.09 | blast007 | I'll try to take a look at it this week |
| 03:01.55 | allejo | mkay |
| 03:02.32 | allejo | i'll start porting over functions next |
| 03:08.43 | blast007 | allejo: the generated URLs in the index page are camel case but the actual files are all lowercase |
| 03:10.20 | allejo | oh yah, do you serve case insensitive or is it case sensitive? if so, then i'll just add a | lower to that |
| 03:10.28 | blast007 | and other than some styling on the parameter table, I think it looks fine. I assume we will expand on the examples a bit? |
| 03:10.39 | blast007 | just make it all lowercase |
| 03:10.58 | allejo | wanna rename the files or just `lower` the url? |
| 03:11.02 | blast007 | it's case sensitive |
| 03:11.25 | blast007 | just the URLs is fine |
| 03:11.42 | allejo | and yea, i wanted something there for examples but not sure what exactly to put there |
| 03:11.50 | blast007 | I'm not too concerned if the source files have mixed case |
| 03:14.53 | blast007 | hmm, might be useful to link to plugins in our source tree that make use of the events? |
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| 03:15.03 | BZnotify | [13bzflag.org] 15allejo pushed 2 new commits to 06feature/api-events: 02https://git.io/v9Wpc |
| 03:15.04 | BZnotify | 13bzflag.org/06feature/api-events 14c8ada1a 15allejo: Add IDs to the headers of the bzfs_api |
| 03:15.04 | BZnotify | 13bzflag.org/06feature/api-events 14c46faa4 15allejo: Lower case the URL to API events |
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| 03:17.44 | allejo | sure, just link to plugins that make use of the event? |
| 03:18.09 | allejo | or maybe rename the "examples" header? something that'll make it easy to copy paste into a plugin's Event()? |
| 03:18.38 | blast007 | I was meaning in addition to the example in the documentation |
| 03:23.32 | allejo | sure, what should it be called? |
| 10:23.58 | blast007 | allejo: maybe just a 'More Information' section? or have 'Example Code' for the in-documentation example and 'Example Plugins' for links to plugins? |
| 10:57.53 | blast007 | for 2.6, can we drop GCC 4.4 support? |
| 10:58.57 | blast007 | I'm merging 2.4 into master, and we had reverted our uses of std::shared_ptr to maining GCC 4.4 support |
| 10:59.08 | blast007 | (reverted it in 2.4, that is) |
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| 12:56.59 | blast007 | s/maining/maintain/ |
| 13:09.13 | BulletCatcher | Yes, we should continue to allow std::shared_ptr in the master branch. |
| 13:09.17 | BulletCatcher | See the b0777cf commit message. |
| 13:09.21 | BulletCatcher | "git merge -Xours" makes it easy, but doesn't preserve ChangeLog updates so use "git merge -Xours --no-commit" to allow manually correcting that and some copyright dates revealed by "git grep 1993-2014". |
| 13:09.24 | BulletCatcher | That merge is so easy with -Xours that I wouldn't even bother until you plan to resume development on master. |
| 13:11.05 | blast007 | I'm already mostly done with just a regular 'git merge' |
| 13:13.27 | BulletCatcher | Before you go any further try using -Xours on another clone. |
| 13:13.37 | blast007 | k |
| 13:18.06 | blast007 | afterwards, I'm going to reverse my dialog system commits |
| 13:48.41 | blast007 | about a year ago, allejo mentioned the site http://up-for-grabs.net/ , and I'm thinking of using that for some 2.6 tasks |
| 13:49.03 | blast007 | for instance, integrating libpng could be one |
| 13:50.50 | blast007 | Would we want to implement OpenAL-soft and also switch from .wav files to .ogg files for our sounds? |
| 13:58.54 | blast007 | "OpenAL Soft does not support the Vorbis and MP3 extensions, however those were considered deprecated even in the SI." So I assume that means we'd decode the files and pass the uncompressed data to OpenAL. |
| 14:28.18 | blast007 | hmm... if I want someone make me some BZFlag advertisement banners/buttons, is "Screenshots & Artwork" the place to ask? :P |
| 14:45.25 | allejo | on the forums? just rename the forums to also have "gfx" :p |
| 14:45.49 | allejo | i like with the "example code" and "example plugins" idea |
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| 16:58.09 | JeffM | not going to try and fix the game first blast007 ? |
| 16:59.27 | blast007 | that a reference to my previous statements about ads? ;) |
| 16:59.35 | JeffM | yes |
| 17:00.10 | blast007 | it is less broken than it was then |
| 17:00.29 | blast007 | and there's going to be actual documentation on the site now |
| 17:00.47 | JeffM | the main confusing items are still there IMHO |
| 17:00.55 | JeffM | buttons that can't be clicked |
| 17:01.06 | JeffM | no quickplay from the menu, etc... |
| 17:01.12 | blast007 | I can't fix that though |
| 17:01.35 | JeffM | why not? |
| 17:01.39 | blast007 | not good enough |
| 17:02.03 | JeffM | an nobody else wants to do stuff? |
| 17:02.23 | blast007 | dunno |
| 17:05.05 | JeffM | do you want to redo the input display system for a 2.4.x compatible release? |
| 17:05.09 | JeffM | has ideas |
| 17:05.32 | blast007 | input display system being what? |
| 17:05.49 | blast007 | visualization of the input (mouse, keyboard, gamepad)? |
| 17:05.53 | JeffM | yes |
| 17:06.02 | JeffM | how the game provides feedback to what the input is |
| 17:06.16 | blast007 | I'd be open to that |
| 17:06.18 | JeffM | right now it's the position of a cursor, and that conflicts with the normal ideas of what a cursor does |
| 17:06.35 | JeffM | I'd turn the cursor off, and provide a different visual feedback GUI when in game |
| 17:06.41 | JeffM | then it's clear that menus are keys |
| 17:06.50 | blast007 | took me like 14 years to realize the "100% speed" point was the mouse box, not the edge of the screen |
| 17:06.57 | JeffM | yeah |
| 17:07.04 | JeffM | the current system is beyond lame |
| 17:07.44 | JeffM | oh and I'd put a friggin crosshair on the tank :) |
| 17:07.59 | JeffM | I can write up a proposal if you want |
| 17:10.04 | blast007 | sure |
| 17:15.46 | JeffM | heh, none of the screenshots on the site show the GUI |
| 17:16.08 | blast007 | nor does the video ;) |
| 17:16.43 | blast007 | what we really need is a photo mode |
| 17:35.42 | JeffM | found one with the current mousebox. |
| 18:09.56 | JeffM | There ya go, Blast007 https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/L2bt1Po0/InputFeedbackRedux.pdf |
| 18:10.40 | JeffM | the mock up is very rough |
| 18:13.24 | JeffM | but I drew it extra thick to show the various parts. |
| 18:14.38 | blast007 | easy enough to add a "legacy" mode that brings back the old behavior? |
| 18:16.08 | JeffM | no, I would remove all the old GUI |
| 18:16.20 | JeffM | there is no need for two systems |
| 18:16.34 | JeffM | there are settings that will make it behave like the old one |
| 18:16.43 | blast007 | might be worth waiting for 2.6 then and make it built upon MyGUI |
| 18:16.57 | JeffM | why? it's trival to implment in the current code |
| 18:17.08 | JeffM | it's just some boxes |
| 18:17.21 | JeffM | but if you had to keep the old stuf you could |
| 18:17.25 | blast007 | but it would change the feel, right? |
| 18:17.50 | JeffM | with a senisitvity of 1 it'd be pixel based and feel the same |
| 18:18.11 | JeffM | the feel comes from the fact that the mouse boxes are defined in pixel space |
| 18:18.31 | JeffM | there can still be settings that end up with that same computation for the axis postion |
| 18:18.38 | JeffM | so the feel is the the same |
| 18:19.09 | JeffM | the rest of the display that show acceleation and stuff, isn't changing any existing behavor, it' s just showing existing behavor |
| 18:19.40 | JeffM | it's even possible to compute new settings based on the old ones that would give identical feel |
| 18:19.57 | JeffM | same pixel mouse movmenet for the same input movement |
| 18:20.05 | JeffM | inner mouse box maps to dead zone |
| 18:20.28 | JeffM | outer mouse box-inner mouse box/ screen res = new snenstifvity setting |
| 18:28.21 | blast007 | mainly I'd want to reduce the "zomg change" reaction that players might have to the change |
| 18:28.45 | blast007 | with a major release, it's more of a "well, this is what it is now" but with a minor they can keep running the previous release |
| 18:29.20 | allejo | wait i thought the problem was, "why won't my mouse click when i hit 'join game'" |
| 18:30.04 | blast007 | one of many problems ;) |
| 18:37.44 | blast007 | and there's also lumen https://lumen.laravel.com/ |
| 18:38.10 | blast007 | heh, sorry, wrong window :) |
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| 19:21.58 | allejo | are +r and +flag the only options with a +? |
| 19:22.29 | allejo | err +f * |
| 19:25.06 | allejo | ah missed +s |
| 19:31.24 | JeffM | allejo: I see the fact that the game HAS a cursor as the problem |
| 19:31.40 | JeffM | cursors are for clcking |
| 19:31.49 | allejo | can we hide it? |
| 19:31.50 | JeffM | what do you click on when playing a game? |
| 19:32.13 | JeffM | you hide it you loose the ability to see where your input is when using the mouse to drive :) |
| 19:32.24 | allejo | hide only when the menu is visible? |
| 19:32.37 | JeffM | bzflag supports driving and menus at the same time |
| 19:32.46 | JeffM | do you want to dissallow that? |
| 19:33.10 | JeffM | also an arrorw is not the best input mechanism, what part of the arrow relative to the box is being tracked? |
| 19:33.18 | JeffM | how do you do sensitivity |
| 19:33.25 | JeffM | read the "problems" section of the proposal |
| 19:34.01 | allejo | oh... |
| 19:34.02 | JeffM | can also think of a version of the GUI that looks very similar to the current GUI if you want |
| 19:34.12 | allejo | just realized that was already in that section |
| 19:34.13 | JeffM | if you want to minmize "WTF is this crap" |
| 19:43.25 | JeffM | You could do something like this, if you wanted to just remove the cursor and support all inputs https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/HtjLrLyK/Simpler_No_Cursor.png |
| 19:43.55 | JeffM | it would not provide acceleration feedback, and you could keep the same screen based contraints in place |
| 19:44.02 | JeffM | just to get people use to the idea |
| 19:50.18 | JeffM | that setup would feel identical to the current game, since it's the the identical backend code, just a different way to display the current inputs. |
| 19:50.50 | JeffM | you could loose the inner box too if you wanted, the dead zones are shown on the outer box |
| 20:02.39 | blast007 | JeffM: for 2.6, I'd want to make all input types have similar disadvantages when dealing with menus and whatnot |
| 20:02.50 | blast007 | so no driving while typing ;) |
| 20:03.04 | blast007 | will surely be lynched for that |
| 20:03.05 | JeffM | that makes sense, lock out tank input when in menus |
| 20:03.13 | JeffM | I'll stand behind you |
| 20:05.53 | blast007 | most other FPS games I've played don't let you play and write a message at the same time |
| 20:06.26 | JeffM | yeah |
| 20:07.58 | JeffM | for the simple GUI I showed, you could have AND still have an option to show the cursor, just disable the cursor by default |
| 20:08.06 | JeffM | that'ld help your new players a little |
| 20:08.20 | JeffM | and let the luddites keep going |
| 20:08.35 | JeffM | then do the better GUI for 2.6 |
| 20:09.05 | blast007 | the config upgrade step could turn the 'show cursor' option on for current players |
| 20:09.27 | JeffM | I'd force it off and make them turn it on after at least trying it ;) |
| 20:09.36 | blast007 | I do like the first mockup. reminds me of MechWarrior. |
| 20:10.08 | JeffM | build a version with it off first, see how people like it :) |
| 20:10.35 | JeffM | I mean what, only have to convince like 15 people right? |
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| 21:16.59 | Zehra | hi zaa :) |
| 21:19.20 | JeffM | blast007: it's also a super huge mesh, full of quads not triangles |
| 21:24.25 | JeffM | Zehra: with those API calls you can totaly controll the team score, you don't need CTF. just ignore what bzfs would set it to and set it to your score |
| 21:26.19 | Zehra | JeffM: i think i have a general idea of fixing the team scores, but not sure how to set them afterwards without them being refixed by the plug-in |
| 21:26.35 | JeffM | the plugin has to managed them ALL the time |
| 21:26.49 | JeffM | you constantly set them |
| 21:26.59 | JeffM | you hook into the event and chagne the data |
| 21:27.08 | JeffM | and your plugin mainatins it's own data for the score |
| 21:28.47 | Zehra | i might be able to work that out |
| 21:29.53 | Zehra | should it store scores via a config file and keep setting scores to it? |
| 21:30.15 | blast007 | no |
| 21:30.29 | blast007 | you should define variables in the plugin class |
| 21:30.36 | JeffM | just keep a global variable in your plugin |
| 21:30.40 | JeffM | that's what it's for |
| 21:31.08 | Zehra | ok |
| 21:31.15 | JeffM | blast007: do you want me to stick that input GUI spec somewhere for safekeeping? |
| 21:32.13 | blast007 | I downloaded the PDF to my server. I'll grab a copy here too. |
| 21:33.22 | blast007 | oh, nvm, I read that wrong. you said you, not me. :) |
| 21:35.36 | JeffM | like check it in somewhere? |
| 21:35.53 | blast007 | looks like it could attach to a forum post as well |
| 21:36.38 | JeffM | Here's one with the simpler implantation as an option. https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/dfEQGNoW/InputFeedbackRedux_r2.pdf |
| 21:37.25 | JeffM | I could attach it to a bug in giithub maybe? |
| 21:38.42 | blast007 | https://help.github.com/articles/file-attachments-on-issues-and-pull-requests/ yup, seems PDF is a supported attachment type. |
| 21:40.23 | JeffM | https://github.com/BZFlag-Dev/bzflag/issues/77 |
| 21:40.34 | JeffM | I can't set labels on it to show it's an enhancement |
| 21:43.26 | blast007 | added |
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