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| 01:00.50 | blast007 | alpha1-2: can't respond there as only ducati members can talk |
| 01:02.04 | alpha1-2 | yes, that was the idea from the start... let me see... |
| 01:06.38 | alpha1-2 | okay, now in the Public one, I think no problem |
| 01:08.14 | alpha1-2 | Ducati match: waiting since now, all invited! (now Public server, not registration needed) |
| 01:08.21 | alpha1-2 | match/es* |
| 01:23.49 | alpha1-2 | in 5 min we start, there is place still! :) |
| 01:32.54 | alpha1-2 | allejo we don't have timelimit nor countdown in your public server :P |
| 01:33.25 | alpha1-2 | oh then we can use just a chronometer (1 guy is hurry) |
| 01:51.47 | allejo | alpha1-2, I think the public server was requested that way |
| 01:52.19 | alpha1-2 | oh okay, we used a stop watch, NP :) |
| 01:52.25 | alpha1-2 | stopwatch* |
| 01:52.53 | allejo | applauds for the improv |
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| 02:50.20 | alpha1-2 | yes, improvisation hehe, always manual ways work! |
| 02:51.58 | alpha1-2 | thanks for all who attended, it was fun! |
| 02:53.55 | alpha1-2 | and for the others, don't discourage, the week still didn't end! :) |
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| 03:47.27 | Foo_man_choo | Whoever devtank is they are either that good or.. yeah.... damn. 8~) |
| 03:47.49 | Foo_man_choo | Shucks... I meant 'darn' |
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| 07:38.35 | FusionDude | devtank is pretty good |
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| 15:46.14 | alpha1-2 | Hi, Ducati *free-time* match/es - for the development spirit: today is Friday, which time would you prefer for today, and who would be interested? Let's vote! (I was thinking a good minimal period would be 1 hour - public server - no registration needed) |
| 15:48.47 | alpha1-2 | (also observers welcome) |
| 15:53.37 | alpha1-2 | and by "time" I mean "(at) what time?" |
| 15:54.22 | alpha1-2 | (not the period of time) |
| 15:55.47 | alpha1-2 | and we have still tomorow to play, then, don't worry if you can today |
| 15:55.57 | alpha1-2 | can't* |
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| 16:22.10 | alpha1-2 | and, please, don't worry if you are not from USA, today the time with more votes wins |
| 16:25.27 | alpha1-2 | I have double vote OFC ;) |
| 16:31.45 | JeffM | allejo, eww the GPL, so viral |
| 16:34.50 | alpha1-2 | what is being viral? |
| 16:35.08 | JeffM | his plugin |
| 16:35.12 | JeffM | GPL vs LGPL |
| 16:35.57 | JeffM | GPL forced everyone to use a compatable license in all code, LGPL allows dynamic linking to non-compatable code |
| 16:36.08 | JeffM | that is why bzflag is LGPL not GPL |
| 16:36.17 | alpha1-2 | the LeagueOverseer one? |
| 16:36.30 | JeffM | no useless mine |
| 16:37.27 | alpha1-2 | yes, I have the idea of the diff. between both |
| 16:37.56 | alpha1-2 | and FSF don't recommend to use LGPL mostly |
| 16:38.04 | alpha1-2 | doesn't |
| 16:38.17 | JeffM | yeah they want to push an agenda |
| 16:38.22 | JeffM | but we are LGPL for a reason |
| 16:38.31 | JeffM | to allow closed source plug-ins |
| 16:38.45 | alpha1-2 | "no useless mine"? what do you mean? |
| 16:39.07 | JeffM | he can license his plug-in however he wants (assuming it's not derived), I was just expressing my opionion on GPL vs LGPL |
| 16:39.19 | JeffM | the plugin is called "useless mine" |
| 16:39.28 | JeffM | it turns the useless flag into a mine |
| 16:40.28 | alpha1-2 | oh yes, I just saw it again last night in-game |
| 16:40.36 | JeffM | there are many versions of it |
| 16:41.56 | JeffM | TimRiker, are you ok with changing the license on the template plug-in to BSD or public domain so that people can use it as a start and not be forced into LGPL? Some people want to MIT or BSD plugins but since they started from our LGPL code they have to be LGPL. |
| 16:42.35 | alpha1-2 | yes, I have read that the only reason FSF recommends LGPL is for those projects that are some original, then they can attract more people to use it since they can link it or use non-free soft. in some relation with it |
| 16:43.06 | JeffM | we do it to allow bzflag to use closed source components if it needs them |
| 16:43.20 | JeffM | LGPL is way more useful |
| 16:43.40 | JeffM | I won't touch a GPL project with a 10 foot pole at work, but LGPL sure |
| 16:43.59 | TimRiker | plugins should be allowed no matter the license. If we want to make that more explicit by changing the license on the template that would make sense to me. |
| 16:44.14 | JeffM | TimRiker, ok thanks |
| 16:44.19 | JeffM | it'd just be 2 files |
| 16:44.25 | TimRiker | nods |
| 16:44.41 | JeffM | I figured that was your opinion too :) |
| 16:44.56 | JeffM | it felt kinda bad telling people they could not use a more premisive license |
| 16:45.25 | TimRiker | agreed |
| 16:45.48 | JeffM | now I just need to stop being dizzy so I can make the change |
| 16:46.02 | TimRiker | dizzy? |
| 16:46.25 | JeffM | I had surgery last week, had to take a painpill last night and today is not awesome |
| 16:46.56 | JeffM | probably shouldn't have skipped breakfast |
| 16:47.07 | TimRiker | oh. sorry to hear it. hope you recover soon |
| 16:47.28 | JeffM | thanks, it's very small surgery, just a hernia. |
| 16:47.34 | JeffM | just some days suck |
| 16:47.49 | JeffM | but at least all my guts are inside now :) |
| 16:56.11 | alpha1-2 | oh, my thought was wrong: if you have 10 office suites, then use LGPL in the free one (it is more attractive); but, instead, if you have few products of a kind of soft (then it is some original), then use GPL, to encourage the use of it |
| 16:57.27 | JeffM | alpha1-2, I can't use GPL code at work for anything. The license says if I use it, I have to make my code GPL, and that can't happen |
| 16:57.33 | alpha1-2 | I just said the opposite before |
| 16:57.53 | JeffM | but I can use LGPL code since all I have to do is keep the code in the library LGPL |
| 16:58.14 | JeffM | so in this case, I will use and contribute back to a LGPL lib and will not do anything with a GPL lib |
| 16:58.46 | JeffM | so in my case the LGPL lib gets more code |
| 17:00.35 | alpha1-2 | oh you are coding libraries... it was called at the start *Library* GNU Public License, precisely to encourage the use of it in non-free software yes |
| 17:03.05 | JeffM | everything is broken into libraries :) |
| 17:03.13 | alpha1-2 | you are coding libraries, use LGPL libraries or both? |
| 17:03.35 | JeffM | I am making products, the products use code, some of that code is in libraries |
| 17:04.53 | alpha1-2 | you just contradicted yourself :) : "everything is broken into libraries" vs "some of that code is in libraries" |
| 17:05.54 | alpha1-2 | or maybe you were talking in general |
| 17:06.18 | alpha1-2 | not big "main"s then? :) |
| 17:06.22 | JeffM | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:06.27 | JeffM | the main is a module |
| 17:06.36 | JeffM | but no, we generaly don't do big "mains" |
| 17:06.53 | JeffM | I am prevented from directly including GPL or LGPL in our modules |
| 17:06.56 | alpha1-2 | yes, true |
| 17:07.05 | JeffM | but with LGPL I can at least put that code in it's own module and use it |
| 17:07.10 | JeffM | with GPL I can not do anythign with it |
| 17:07.20 | JeffM | most of what we use us BSD |
| 17:08.14 | alpha1-2 | yes, GPL forces that all the related soft must be GPL also |
| 17:08.45 | JeffM | yeah and that prevents people from using it |
| 17:10.35 | alpha1-2 | well, the idea is that people who develop into GPL, make more GPL software. It is the main license from FSF. It is the heart of the idea/movement. It is free soft vs propietary soft. |
| 17:11.26 | alpha1-2 | though, as I said in previous times, I am not totally against propietary soft. |
| 17:11.38 | JeffM | yeah it's a flawed idea |
| 17:11.51 | JeffM | not everyone can make GPL software |
| 17:11.57 | JeffM | so it limits the pool of possible developers |
| 17:12.12 | alpha1-2 | I don't like posible too strong/dangerous extremes |
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| 17:12.23 | Not-f47f | [02bzflag-import-3] 07JeffM2501 pushed 031 commit to 03v2_4_x [+0/-0/±2] 13http://git.io/_t1mUA |
| 17:12.24 | Not-f47f | [02bzflag-import-3] 07JeffM2501 039e97afa - Per Tim Riker's agreement, make the sample plug-in be BSD licensed so that plug-ins can use any license they want if they use the template and not be forced into LGPL. |
| 17:12.49 | JeffM | alpha1-2, BSD is a more premisive license |
| 17:12.59 | JeffM | GPL removes one of my freedoms :) |
| 17:13.35 | JeffM | it removes my freedom to choose a derived license as a trade off for forcing me to share. |
| 17:14.05 | alpha1-2 | but LGPL is a good *meddium term*, for some cases, though |
| 17:14.22 | JeffM | yes, LGPL is a practical implemention of the idea of GPL |
| 17:14.30 | JeffM | it's good enough |
| 17:14.49 | JeffM | at work it lets us use, and contribute back, to open source projects |
| 17:15.23 | JeffM | so those open source projects end up getting some of my companies work they would be spending on closed source development, and that helps out everyone |
| 17:16.04 | alpha1-2 | nice :) |
| 17:22.14 | alpha1-2 | I think that a minimal confidence in propietary soft. we should have. The problem is that there are a lot of monopolies and manipulations of the information out there (specially the big/multinational enterprises), then many people don't trust much on them. Here is where GPL software helps. It is a complex topic, though. |
| 17:23.09 | JeffM | I think that people actualy trust software they pay for more then free stuff |
| 17:23.24 | JeffM | then they know they get support |
| 17:23.41 | JeffM | your statement is probalby more correct for the subset of people who are in IT or system admin |
| 17:25.25 | alpha1-2 | and you refer to wich kind of clients/people? |
| 17:25.33 | JeffM | people that use computers |
| 17:25.37 | JeffM | users |
| 17:25.40 | JeffM | managers |
| 17:25.47 | JeffM | people that just want to get work done |
| 17:26.22 | JeffM | unless you have very techincal staff, the total cost of running open source software can be more then propritary |
| 17:26.29 | JeffM | depends on our staff |
| 17:27.04 | JeffM | now do I have to make that same change to 2.6.x branch or is there a way to just promote it in Git? |
| 17:27.50 | JeffM | sorry your staff not our staff :) |
| 17:30.22 | alpha1-2 | yes, I think that all depends on the security and the level of importance of your information, then you will worry more or less. For example, the governments; there are governments that are very careful in the management of their info, and then, they use GPL soft. |
| 17:30.51 | JeffM | goverments would have the money to have highly techincal staff and pick the best software for the job |
| 17:31.22 | JeffM | "most" people have little jobs, like an accountant, they are probalby just going to buy accounting software |
| 17:37.59 | alpha1-2 | it can be used in both big or tiny contexts (or meddium). I am a tiny worker and I use GPL software. I know of tiny cooperatives that use it also. I think there is target market for both kinds of development ways. But, well, as I said, it is a complex topic and don't want to do it more extense :) . It was interesting, though . When we share/discuss, we learn more. |
| 17:39.22 | JeffM | sure, just some people need to be paid, and not everyone can run buisness based on servicing free software :) |
| 17:41.22 | alpha1-2 | oh, remeber that free/libre software is not equal to free of charge services/products. I get paid, all get paid, just it is a *different way* to do the job |
| 17:41.42 | JeffM | I know there are ways to get paid for making free software |
| 17:41.53 | JeffM | you just have to be able to sell something surrounding it |
| 17:42.00 | JeffM | and that can work |
| 17:42.05 | JeffM | but it does not always work |
| 17:42.36 | alpha1-2 | yes, it is another *paradigm*, let's say |
| 17:43.18 | JeffM | no only that, it requires your software to be someting that has a sellable support feature |
| 17:43.35 | JeffM | and the price of that sellable support must be high enough to cover costs |
| 17:43.54 | JeffM | those things don't always match up in all softwares |
| 17:44.22 | JeffM | it depends on the nature of the industry the software is supporting. |
| 17:47.21 | alpha1-2 | Well, I have to do things, also; I will stop this talk now, but interesting, thanks. Regarding to the Ducati match/es, still opened to votation, I will keep connected. Be back later. |
| 17:51.35 | JeffM | have fun |
| 18:54.25 | blast007 | JeffM: we'll get that license change the next time we merge up |
| 18:55.56 | blast007 | alpha1-2: my job would be much harder if I was limited to just open-source software |
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| 19:29.17 | JeffM | blast007, ok thanks |
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| 20:23.48 | alpha1-2 | at what time would you like to play today? maybe at 1 UTC like yesterday? |
| 20:24.54 | alpha1-2 | remember, no need to be registered at Ducati, we use the public server |
| 20:27.41 | alpha1-2 | (at least today; for tomorow we can divide in 2 groups if necessary) |
| 20:32.28 | alpha1-2 | come one, guys, let's revive the BZ spirit, and the *player* spirit also! :) |
| 20:33.29 | alpha1-2 | come on* |
| 20:34.47 | WarPig | Welcome back my friends, to the show that never ends... |
| 20:35.55 | alpha1-2 | all we have a little player inside, don't try to hide it! ;) |
| 20:37.01 | alpha1-2 | (your bosses will not be seeing) |
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| 20:37.56 | alpha1-2 | hi WarPig, what do you think of my proposal? I am giving UTC now |
| 20:56.02 | alpha1-2 | who has attended already, no need to repeat if don't want/can, but the idea is that all can do it at least once |
| 20:57.15 | alpha1-2 | apart it is a good oportunity to share time with those "only"-players |
| 20:58.23 | alpha1-2 | TimRiker: please, join us today or tomorow, it would be very nice to count with your presence (and with your skills also?) :) |
| 21:00.54 | alpha1-2 | we can sell tickets and all :)) |
| 21:08.39 | alpha1-2 | and yes, WarPig, the idea was 1 week, 1 hour per day that I am contributing, not just 1 day... |
| 21:10.34 | alpha1-2 | but I am not forcing anybody, it is voluntary, OFC... |
| 21:13.57 | khonkhortisan | we're last tank matching |
| 21:23.30 | alpha1-2 | but it would be good a tiny bit of effort from each one... |
| 21:26.27 | alpha1-2 | yes, khonkhortisan, that is a good coincidence. I think this week can *prepare* the ambience for those who don't play often/too often for they can participate of those 2 matches on Sunday also (as I mentioned in the last days). But thanks for saying something, it makes me feel better at least :) |
| 21:41.57 | alpha1-2 | (oh you meant right now :P) |
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| 23:27.49 | alpha1-2 | blast007: yes, I agree. I was not too clear, though. I use mostly GPL (and surely some LGPL), but also other kinds of similar licenses like MIT, MPL, BSD, etc. (that come with the operating system/packages). I have 1 prop. software (Adobe Flash) and 1 free-of-charge one (ZaraRadio). Until for browsing I prefer to use OpenJDK instead of Sun Java JRE. |
| 23:29.27 | JeffM | ewww java |
| 23:31.00 | alpha1-2 | yes, but just to browsing :) |
| 23:31.12 | JeffM | why would you need java for browsing? |
| 23:31.27 | alpha1-2 | javascript |
| 23:31.32 | JeffM | java is not javascript |
| 23:31.36 | JeffM | they are not related at all |
| 23:31.43 | JeffM | javascript does not use the JRE |
| 23:31.52 | JeffM | it is implemented in the browser |
| 23:32.24 | JeffM | from Wikipedia, Java (programming language) "Not to be confused with JavaScript." |
| 23:33.07 | alpha1-2 | okay, yes, I think I und. the difference, but there are sites that want to run java soft also |
| 23:33.19 | JeffM | those sites are evil and will hack your machine :) |
| 23:34.31 | alpha1-2 | then I prefer a free version of it. And I have to think in all the posibilities. If the client (person) wants to browse freely, I have to install all he needs. |
| 23:34.44 | JeffM | it's not a free version of the java language |
| 23:34.53 | JeffM | it's a free version of the toolkit |
| 23:35.12 | JeffM | java is still owned by sun and techicnaly not open source |
| 23:35.27 | JeffM | in order to be certfied as real "java" you have to use sun's closed source testing system |
| 23:35.58 | alpha1-2 | java-1_6_0-openjdk - Java runtime environment based on OpenJDK 6 and IcedTea 6 |
| 23:35.59 | JeffM | java is the second worst langauage I've ever used |
| 23:35.59 | alpha1-2 | java-1_6_0-openjdk - Java runtime environment based on OpenJDK 6 and IcedTea 6 |
| 23:36.01 | alpha1-2 | GPLv2 ; - with the OpenJDK Assembly Exception and the GNU Classpath Exception |
| 23:36.16 | JeffM | yeah the JDK is open, it's just a javaish compatable implemetnation :) |
| 23:36.26 | JeffM | but java itself is not based off any open standard |
| 23:36.45 | JeffM | sun testified in court that the java language itself was not open |
| 23:37.30 | alpha1-2 | I don't understand what you mean |
| 23:37.35 | JeffM | think of it like this, Wine is Open Source |
| 23:37.43 | JeffM | but that doesn't make windows open source |
| 23:38.09 | alpha1-2 | I didn't say that Sun Java JRE was free |
| 23:38.18 | JeffM | java is more then the JRE |
| 23:38.26 | JeffM | the JRE is just runtime software |
| 23:38.36 | alpha1-2 | I know, I learnt it! |
| 23:38.41 | alpha1-2 | :) |
| 23:38.41 | JeffM | the language definiton itself is not tied to any JRE |
| 23:38.53 | JeffM | you can not submit language chagnes to "java" |
| 23:39.01 | JeffM | just code changes to openJDK |
| 23:39.21 | JeffM | and the JDK must do what Sun says Java is "suposed" to do |
| 23:39.56 | JeffM | but yeah you are "effectily" open source |
| 23:39.59 | alpha1-2 | yes, it is a free implemetation of Java, I know, the same as the GNU compiler |
| 23:40.06 | JeffM | but it is implementeing a closed langauge |
| 23:40.19 | JeffM | well C is not a closed language, it has an open standards commitie |
| 23:40.28 | JeffM | it is not owned by a single company |
| 23:41.00 | alpha1-2 | from the package manager: |
| 23:41.02 | alpha1-2 | It contains a Java virtual machine, runtime class libraries, and an Java application launcher that are necessary to run programs written in the Java progamming language. It is not a development environment and does not contain development tools such as compilers and debuggers. For development tools, see the java-1_6_0-openjdk-devel package. |
| 23:41.20 | JeffM | yeah it's just runtimes |
| 23:41.41 | alpha1-2 | I just need the JRE to run applications, not to develop them, I und. that |
| 23:41.43 | JeffM | just like Wine is runtimes for windows applications |
| 23:42.09 | alpha1-2 | yes |
| 23:43.09 | JeffM | our IT removed the java browser plugin from all our machines for security reasons |
| 23:43.20 | JeffM | sadly we still have to have the runtimes for a few tools |
| 23:43.59 | alpha1-2 | I just wanted to show that I chose it instead of "java-1_6_0-sun" that has "NON-OSI-COMPLIANT(royalties)" license/s |
| 23:44.05 | JeffM | sure |
| 23:44.13 | JeffM | both are evil :) |
| 23:44.18 | alpha1-2 | hehe |
| 23:44.18 | JeffM | one is slightly less |
| 23:44.48 | JeffM | but now we know we can hack your machine from the forum webpage |
| 23:46.26 | alpha1-2 | I don't think so ;) |
| 23:46.39 | JeffM | if we tried hard enough |
| 23:46.44 | JeffM | there are vulnerabilities |
| 23:47.51 | alpha1-2 | I don't think that people that develop free software is evil. If they see any bad thing into a prop. soft. they want to "copy", I believe that they will be enough "good" to avoid or change it. |
| 23:48.06 | JeffM | they should have backed an open standard ;) |
| 23:48.39 | alpha1-2 | oh yes, always there are vulneravilities, in all softwares |
| 23:48.48 | JeffM | java has many |
| 23:48.50 | alpha1-2 | vulnerabilities* |
| 23:48.56 | JeffM | many many |
| 23:49.55 | alpha1-2 | but, again, you are talking of Sun Java and I of the free Java implementation, with the supposed differences I mentioned just before |
| 23:50.16 | JeffM | nope the java spec itself has issues |
| 23:50.25 | JeffM | happens in all the JRE implemtations |
| 23:50.31 | JeffM | they have to be compatable |
| 23:50.53 | alpha1-2 | it can be, but have you checked that they remain the same in the free implem.? |
| 23:51.21 | JeffM | the free one is faster to get them fixed |
| 23:51.26 | JeffM | but yes some are deep down |
| 23:51.35 | alpha1-2 | for example? |
| 23:51.44 | JeffM | I have none off the top of my head |
| 23:51.53 | JeffM | it was a while ago I researched it |
| 23:52.44 | alpha1-2 | oh okay, nice |
| 23:52.50 | JeffM | the assumption that open source software is vulerability free because people review it is flawed, that has been proven quite wrong recently |
| 23:53.08 | JeffM | heartbleed, recent libc issues, etc.. |
| 23:54.07 | alpha1-2 | no, vulnerability free is impossible, I know, just I like free soft. much more, as you said, "the free one is faster to get them fixed" |
| 23:54.17 | JeffM | when they are found |
| 23:54.21 | JeffM | they are not found any faster |
| 23:54.24 | JeffM | sometimes slower |
| 23:54.45 | alpha1-2 | okay, we live in a non-perfect world also :) |
| 23:55.32 | alpha1-2 | but, OFC, all depends of the level of security you need, then you choose which soft. you will use |
| 23:56.09 | JeffM | when it's runtimes, runtimes that read code from the internet, you need total security |
| 23:57.36 | alpha1-2 | you sound some extreme sometimes, excuse me :) |
| 23:58.13 | JeffM | when you are downloading and running unknown code, I think it's very important to know that the thing doing the work is solid |
| 23:58.20 | JeffM | since you don't know what is in that code |
| 23:58.44 | JeffM | specialy when a web page can put it in with no action or approval from you |
| 23:58.54 | JeffM | this is why I think client side plug-ins in bzflag are a horrible idea |
| 23:59.07 | JeffM | you want me to run code some server owner picked? |
| 23:59.09 | JeffM | no thanks |
| 23:59.46 | alpha1-2 | yes, but all depends of your end client (user). It is not the same an average user (tiny enterprises/home) that the software that an air control for flights uses |