IRC log for #bzflag on 20140901

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03:15.34alpha1-2JeffM: I didn't ask you to write a new system. I just asked for the *name* of a game model you like very much (with a nice networking system) to imitate.
03:21.44alpha1-2nice networking system according to you*
03:51.13allejoI wonder if Super User would be better if it reads the config file and stores the info in a map versus creating a vector of perms every time a player joins
03:51.17allejoany thoughts/
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15:10.51delusionalIs there an easy way to make  team flags spawn at a predetrmined location away from the base?
15:11.11delusionalor perhaps i should say "any way"
15:11.28JeffMplug-in
15:12.12delusionalthanks
15:12.29delusionalthats what i needed to know
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15:31.54delusionalhow can a plugin tell that a teamflag has been picked up
15:33.56JeffMevery flag grab has an event
15:34.04JeffMand you can get the flag type that was picked up
15:34.34delusionalyeah, as soon as i said it I knew it was a stupid question, even for me.
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15:50.22alpha1-2[Lun 01 Sep 2014] [00:15:34] <alpha1-2>JeffM: I didn't ask you to write a new system. I just asked for the *name* of a game model you like very much (with a nice networking system) to imitate.
15:50.23alpha1-2[Lun 01 Sep 2014] [00:17:57] SalirJeffM ha dejado este servidor (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
15:50.25alpha1-2[Lun 01 Sep 2014] [00:21:44] <alpha1-2>nice networking system according to you*
15:51.02JeffMalpha1-2, there are many documents out there on how to do good FPS networking
15:51.16JeffMwe don't even need to write one, we can just use an existing engine.
15:51.33JeffMeven the old halflife/quake model is fine
15:53.42alpha1-2you mean an existing 3D engine with networking?
15:53.54JeffMor codebase, yes
15:54.06JeffMintenet gaming is not a new or unique problem :)
15:54.57alpha1-2unique in which sense?
15:55.28JeffMmany people have solved the problem of a network simulation where people shot each other
15:55.39JeffMwe just have to implement one of the methods
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16:01.56alpha1-2okay, interesting to research for me. Though, I still think BZ is not bad. I know it started into a LAN, but in my view it can be projected from a tiny model to a big one in the same way. The only problem (and it is inevitable) is the lag related directly to the distances between the spots/places.
16:02.38JeffMProjection is the worst method, historic is beter
16:02.52JeffMthe current code does not use any latency in it's hits
16:02.58JeffMit also has no authorative server
16:03.01JeffMso cheating is easy
16:03.12JeffMit is bad, compared to what is out there
16:03.20JeffMit is "not bad" for 10 years ago
16:03.36JeffMthere are many ways to compensate for lag
16:04.05JeffMreally bz could be reimplemented in the quakeqworld codebase very easy
16:04.11JeffMand be much more playable
16:05.01alpha1-2but those methodes would allow players playing from huge distances better than this one with BZ? For example, an aussie player playing into a USA server, better with those models or with the BZ one?
16:05.16JeffMyeah it'd be much beter
16:05.23JeffMthe system would take what the AU player saw into account
16:05.57JeffMthe experience would be much more consistent regardless of ping
16:06.06JeffMthis is how people play FPS games today
16:06.42JeffMwe could know that her packets took longer and see what they would have hit in the past
16:08.16alpha1-2and the lag solution is based mostly in the authoritative server? (or cause of it?)
16:08.42JeffMyeah
16:08.49JeffMyou have to have one state you can trust
16:08.55JeffMyou can't trust a client, ever
16:09.14JeffMassume all network trafic is a lie untill you prove it is valid
16:09.29alpha1-2uh :P
16:09.42JeffMeven if it's encrypted :)
16:10.54alpha1-2okay, then adding some lag balances would be the main solution
16:11.09alpha1-2(in the server)
16:11.34JeffMthe bzflag server dosn't keep a state
16:11.38alpha1-2or compensations*
16:11.41JeffMso it can't be authorative
16:11.50JeffMso it's more then just 'keeping some lag info'
16:12.28alpha1-2mwould it be much work to change both server and client to make server authoritative?
16:12.50JeffMyes
16:13.11JeffMwe'd have to disconect the client simulation code from the game client and put a copy in the server
16:13.21JeffMthen make the client use the info from the network
16:13.26JeffMit's a decent rewrite
16:14.56alpha1-2I think it is too much complex to me to undertand well all still
16:15.16JeffMit is a complex situaton
16:15.26alpha1-2but little by little I am getting the idea of how BZ works
16:15.28JeffMit helps to break the problem down into requirements
16:17.13JeffMCandidate Systems Matrix FTW!
16:18.02alpha1-2blast007 said that the new system would be worse for further payers (more than 80 ms of lag), though (IIRC)
16:18.34JeffMdepended on what we implement
16:18.40JeffMhe's basing it on other FPS games
16:18.51blast007I didn't say 80ms for our implementation, I gave that as examples of some other games where three digit lag becomes unplayable
16:18.58JeffMand that can be true, but we have some mitgating issues, shot speed is slow
16:19.07JeffMyeah it is a concern
16:19.21blast007Left 4 Dead is a pain to play with lag over 100ms, for instance
16:19.29JeffMsome HPBs will be unable to play but the experience for others will be more consistent
16:19.39blast007though I can't say if there was packet loss or jitter involved there too as they only report ping times
16:19.41JeffMyeah most games with hitscan weapons need low latancy
16:20.16blast007that, and a huge amount of mobs moving around ;)
16:20.30JeffMyeah, it's a different game that is very twitch based
16:21.06blast007the implentation of lag compensation of 2.99.x was a bit backwards though as it favored players with high lag
16:21.24JeffMyes that was were I was doing prediction
16:21.31blast007literally spawning shots further in front of their tanks when their lag was high
16:21.37JeffMI now see prediction isn't the best way
16:21.39blast007spawning new shots*
16:21.57blast007yep, was an interesting test at least
16:22.03JeffMyeah
16:22.17JeffMit would not work well with the curren hit detection
16:23.12JeffMbut really it's been solved, we can just use some opensource code for it all :)
16:23.31alpha1-2if this new system can be a good solution, though it is not still probed, why don't start a paralel branch with it to be tested?
16:23.54JeffMalpha1-2, it is a massive undertaking
16:24.07JeffMand there is no consesus on the exact method
16:24.14JeffMand noobdy wants to make big changes :)
16:24.33alpha1-2ow then? :P
16:24.49alpha1-2what is the supposed solution for the supposed problem? :)
16:24.57JeffMit won't happen, this goes back to my statements that bzflag development is dead :)
16:25.16JeffMwe are unable to get momentum to get anything done that involves more then one person
16:25.32blast007over the years, we've looked into a few different game engines (Orge3D, Crystal Space, Torque3D)
16:25.45JeffMyup
16:25.51blast007there was even some work done on a Crystal Space fork at one point
16:26.02alpha1-2quake one is one of them?
16:26.03blast007though that may have been mostly/all a one man project
16:26.05JeffMyes but it was just graphics, no networking
16:26.18blast007ah
16:27.01JeffMthe "all in one" engine is a more recent devlopment
16:27.21blast007alpha1-2: actually, we're just gonna rewrite it in Flash and make it a Facebook game ;)
16:27.26blast007maybe put it on Newgrounds too!
16:27.27alpha1-2hehe
16:27.38alpha1-2too complex for those very simple games!
16:27.53JeffMbzflag is a very simple game
16:27.56blast007100 magic bullets for $50!
16:28.11alpha1-2quake engine was tested, is it one of the mentioned before maybe?
16:28.23JeffMno, nobody did that work
16:28.39blast007we could use the id Tech 4 engine and add flashlights
16:28.45JeffMpeople got upset when I sugested that bzflag could be implemented as a quake mod
16:29.47blast007I wonder how well documented the doom III engine is
16:30.12JeffMD3 isn't well suited for outdoor environments
16:30.19blast007k
16:30.25JeffMnot that our maps are very big
16:30.30DTRemenakbzflag isn't really outdoor
16:30.38JeffMyeah it's inside a dome :)
16:30.39alpha1-2in my humbe opinion, I think that... BZ has created its own engine + networking over the years (or for long time now) and people is too proud of it (in the good sense) to want to change it (I repeat, if it is needed, still not sure (me))
16:31.01JeffMalpha1-2, no they got upset because they think quake is "bad"
16:31.28JeffMany of the itech systems would run bzflag as it stands now just fine
16:31.40DTRemenakquake has a very different feel than bzflag.  you'd have to be careful to keep that from rubbing off.  as a mod that would be really hard.
16:32.09JeffMyes you'd have to make sure a lot of paramaters were set to very specific values so it felt the same
16:32.22JeffMI don't think we should use quake, it's C :)
16:32.56alpha1-2wow GPL also (id Tech 4)!
16:33.14JeffMyeah they keep open sourcing stuff
16:33.35DTRemenak"have kept" - Carmack quit.  no guarantee they'll keep doing it.
16:34.00JeffMyeah
16:34.04JeffMthat is true
16:34.18JeffMoh and look, his new company bought raknet and open sourced it :)
16:34.27DTRemenakyup :)  not a coincidence...
16:34.41JeffMI have been less impressed by later ID engines
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16:34.57JeffMwell I should say the games people make with them
16:35.32DTRemenakid tech 4 is a fine engine
16:36.20DTRemenakbut either I (and every game developer using id tech 5) missed the point of megatexturing, or it was a bad idea...
16:36.21alpha1-2starts a new paralel branch with id tech 4 engine to be tested :)
16:37.13blast007not as though there's a shortage of options to pick from ;)  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_game_engines
16:37.46JeffMyou'd want to define what you want bzflag to do first
16:37.55JeffMthen you can pick a system that does what you need
16:37.57blast007survive :P
16:38.23alpha1-2let's vote which one is the best (there are many expert people here)!
16:38.35JeffMalpha1-2, that is a horrible way to run a project
16:38.40alpha1-2hehehe
16:38.48alpha1-2at least I try it! hehehe
16:39.02JeffMbuild up requirements first
16:39.14alpha1-2oowww :(
16:39.20alpha1-2deflates
16:39.36JeffMwhy? it's a prefectly good thing to do
16:39.44JeffMand answers many questions
16:40.13alpha1-2yes, I know.  To make a kind of big project one needs planification. :)
16:41.03JeffMhave you gotten to those courses in university yet?
16:41.32alpha1-2which courses?
16:41.37alpha1-2subjects?
16:41.52JeffMSoftware Engineering, systems analasis, etc..
16:42.11JeffMthose are the ones I've found most helpful
16:42.19alpha1-2it is a career, not just courses. I got some courses and things also, though.
16:42.40JeffMdoes your degree require you to take them?
16:43.16alpha1-2I have attended the half of the career aprox. (need to give some exams still, but mostly hard science ones)
16:44.08JeffMlike?
16:45.20alpha1-2I got dissapointed moslty cause they included Java instead of C/C++ and some other technologies/politics
16:45.52JeffMthe programing language dosn't matter for design
16:46.02JeffMmany projects use multiple languages
16:46.23alpha1-2and I am analyzing to change to Bachelor in Computer Science (kind of) in other Univ.
16:46.38JeffMwhat is your current degree in?
16:46.43JeffMInformation Technology?
16:47.53alpha1-2if I got any degree already or if I am studying for getting one?
16:48.10JeffMether of those
16:48.48alpha1-2I still didn't end any career, then I don't get any degree still
16:49.13JeffMif you were to continue to get the degree what would it be?
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16:49.53alpha1-2and hard sciences (that are hard :) are like Mathematic Analisys, Phisics, etc.
16:50.04alpha1-2Physics*
16:50.12alpha1-2Physic*
16:50.30DTRemenakphysics is correct.  always plural in english.
16:50.42alpha1-2that don't change much over the years (in comparation with technology one)
16:50.50alpha1-2ones*
16:51.17alpha1-2okay
16:52.01alpha1-2but I have gotten rather knowledge over the years in general
16:52.16alpha1-2(still want my degree, though!)
16:52.32JeffMwhat subject would that degree be in? :)
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16:53.39alpha1-2I don't know still the exact English word to say "attend" (attend and approve partial exams) and "give exams" (final exams)
16:54.32alpha1-2when we end a subject (giving partial exams) we call it being "regular"
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16:54.54Foo_man_chooTime for BBQ!
16:55.08Foo_man_chooNoth'n but luv 4 yall!
16:55.12DTRemenakwith a lot of education terminology, there IS no exact translation.  the university system developed very differently in English- and Spanish-speaking countries, so you're often left with just describing.
16:55.21alpha1-2then you are able to give "final" exams and aproving the subjects definitively
16:56.20DTRemenakabout the only thing that translates well are degree/grado and carrera/major
16:58.55alpha1-2Systems Information Engineering is mostly oriented to make systems (mainly with computers) about the information flows into the organizations/enterprises and about the study their internal structure. As an engineer you can also manage people (cause Analysts can be under you).
16:59.51JeffMthere we go, Information Technology
17:00.17alpha1-2We see many subjects from hardware to software, organizations, managing, hard sciences, social ones, etc.
17:00.18JeffMyes if you want more programing you may wish to change to computer science :)
17:00.30JeffMsure, you have to be well rounded
17:00.31DTRemenakor information systems...some US universities distinguish IT and IS also
17:00.39JeffMI had to take ethics classes :)
17:01.09JeffMsure, it's still on the side of information management, not really software deveopment
17:01.15DTRemenakyes
17:01.21JeffMbut I would expect some systems analasis
17:01.27DTRemenakshould be
17:01.48alpha1-2yes, information systems are more general than just software systems
17:02.07alpha1-2though they are very close lately with all the technology
17:03.22alpha1-2that is why you can have manual systems (flows) doing better than automated or computarized ones
17:03.57alpha1-2like filling a paper form
17:04.02JeffMhave you learned how to look at those manual systems and define requirements?
17:04.07alpha1-2or having a recepcionist
17:05.00alpha1-2what do you mean exactly?
17:05.31JeffMto look at and old system and say what it does, and then say what new things it must do
17:05.59alpha1-2about Analisys of Systems and Design of Systems subjects? (more theory than implementation)?
17:06.23DTRemenakyes
17:06.31alpha1-2oh yes, that is analysis
17:06.51DTRemenakthere's plenty of application for all that theory :)
17:07.02JeffMyeah, think of bzflag as an old system
17:07.37alpha1-2you define an area where you aim (not the whole system) and study the nowadays system, correct it if it is necessary (in general it is) and make a new system/implementation
17:07.44alpha1-2aim to*
17:08.14JeffMbefore you implement you must decide what the best new impementation would be
17:09.22alpha1-2yes, but before I need to study the nowadays one and to see if it really needs changes :)
17:09.36JeffMexactly
17:09.49alpha1-2and as BZ is rathe complex, maybe I would have to study all of it?
17:09.53alpha1-2rather*
17:10.07JeffMwe know bzflag needs changes, we need to build a list of problems before we can have soltuions
17:10.16alpha1-2it depends if the change is too big, I think
17:10.51DTRemenakscope definition is the first phase, before analysis begins
17:11.12alpha1-2definition of the problems?
17:11.12DTRemenakscope definition, problem analysis, requirements, design, implementation
17:11.33DTRemenakdeciding what part of the system you're going to look at
17:11.46alpha1-2oh yes the area I mentioned
17:11.48DTRemenakand what part you're not, which is MORE important :)
17:12.16DTRemenak"We am not going to solve that problem with this project" <- an important sentence to learn :)
17:12.17alpha1-2yes, that would be the "whole system" :)
17:12.36DTRemenak"we am" - check out my awesome english.  let's try "we are"...
17:13.01alpha1-2but what I am telling is that if the change is too big, maybe you have to re-implement *all* the system
17:13.38JeffMthats why you do the analasis first, to know what interacts with each other, and how much has to change
17:13.42DTRemenakwhich is why scope definition is important.  it allows you to say "we aren't doing that" right at the beginning
17:14.08JeffMyeah, you don't just "Vote and code"
17:14.21alpha1-2okay, let's say: "we are aiming to change (if it is necessary) the networking + the 3D system with an authoritative server" yes?
17:14.42JeffMdefine your problem, not your sugested solution
17:14.49DTRemenakyou can reduce the scope of that, even
17:15.06DTRemenakare you trying to solve networking problems, or 3d problems?
17:15.14alpha1-2that is what an enterprise owner (with rather knowledge in systems ;) would say to the professional at the start, okay? :)
17:15.32alpha1-2"I don't like the lags!"
17:15.44DTRemenaknetworking it is
17:15.45alpha1-2"it must be... blah.. blah... blah"
17:15.52JeffMbreak it down to smaler ssues
17:15.53DTRemenakso...no need to change the 3d systems now
17:16.43alpha1-2yes, breaking in smaller issues is very useful or necessary
17:17.20alpha1-2but as we have talked rather about it maybe we have an idea already (networking + 3d system with an auth. server)
17:18.18alpha1-2then we can start dividing it in parts. But well, this is not too easy, just we are talking quickly. It needs more thinking work and etc.
17:18.36DTRemenakthat's a design-phase issue.  once you have decided how you are addressing the problems within the scope of networking, you may find that the solution to those problems can also help with other areas.
17:18.39alpha1-2but it is nice to have these quick talks also :)
17:19.04DTRemenakbut at the requirements phase, you have to stay in your scope...otherwise you break budgets :)
17:19.48alpha1-2the for you the scope would be the network system at start?
17:19.51alpha1-2then*
17:20.04DTRemenakyour words, not mine...I'm not volunteering for anything :P
17:20.09alpha1-2hehe
17:20.14alpha1-2me neither!
17:20.16alpha1-2:P
17:20.22alpha1-2too mcuh work I see
17:20.29alpha1-2but well, just thinking
17:21.05alpha1-2I just would like to research a little more about networking into FPS games
17:21.13alpha1-2for now
17:21.50alpha1-2(and keep playing BZ!)
17:22.28DTRemenakand really, "too much work" is the biggest problem here.  if you reduce the scope to something manageable, it won't solve your problem :)
17:22.41alpha1-2how many real developers there are here aprox.?
17:22.50alpha1-2are there*
17:23.17alpha1-2(or active)
17:23.28alpha1-2(or with the intention of help)
17:23.44alpha1-2any idea?
17:23.51alpha1-220?
17:23.53alpha1-210?
17:24.06alpha1-256?
17:24.08alpha1-2:)
17:24.25alpha1-2(o changserv and infobot out, then 54)
17:24.32DTRemenaktechnically bzflag has some 60-odd committers
17:25.17alpha1-2"if you reduce the scope to something manageable, it won't solve your problem :)" it is well written or any mistake?
17:25.49alpha1-2oh nice! good number!
17:25.55DTRemenaklooks ok to me, though the "it" has an ambiguous antecedent
17:26.35alpha1-2if I reduce the scope to something maneagable, you mean it will be imposible to do?
17:26.57alpha1-2or very hard? some confused
17:26.59DTRemenakof those, six have been active in the last six months
17:27.13DTRemenakno, it won't solve the problem that you're trying to solve
17:27.40alpha1-2okay, cause of few people involved then the scope is too small, right?
17:27.42DTRemenakscope reduction to achievable labor makes the project so small that it can't tackle even a single problem
17:27.43DTRemenakyes
17:27.55JeffMalpha1-2, thats why you do analasis, to see if your scope solves your problem :)
17:28.18DTRemenakat some point you have a "minimum scope"
17:28.28DTRemenakand in our case, the minimum scope exceeds the maximum labor
17:28.32JeffMyeah, there is "the least work to fix the problem"
17:28.46DTRemenakso it's "unachievable" without changing something
17:29.41alpha1-2for example, that only one person project you talked about (3D engine) ended in him became tired/overwhelmed then?
17:30.29JeffMall the big projects were tried by a single person, or a pair at most. That is not enough to acheive the change
17:30.31DTRemenakand because he knew he had very little chance of ever getting it promoted to mainline
17:30.41JeffMyeah it was more of a toy
17:30.42DTRemenakcrystalspace was too controversial
17:30.55DTRemenakno consensus, and this is a consensus-governed project
17:30.57JeffMZ is up damnit!
17:31.03DTRemenakheh
17:31.36alpha1-2okay
17:31.55DTRemenakI don't think any of the other projects even made it that far
17:32.04alpha1-2yes, as much as they are involved, as faster, I think
17:32.15JeffMthey got a map to load IIRC
17:32.32DTRemenakwho, ogre?
17:32.36JeffMCS
17:32.40alezakosalpha1-2: 8 developers made commits to the project the 12 months
17:32.42DTRemenakyeah, they had some working code
17:32.51alpha1-2was that related to 2.99x or not?
17:32.57DTRemenakbut I don't think any other engine project got that far
17:33.04DTRemenakno
17:33.12JeffMOgre was funny, one of the developers said "oh yeah this should be easy", then looked at our code and backed off :)
17:33.22DTRemenakyeah, that was pretty hilarious
17:33.26JeffMone of the Ogre Developers I mean :)
17:33.57JeffMit's what can happen when you design by "whatever"
17:33.57DTRemenakyou did some experiments with lightspace or irrlicht or something, right?
17:34.06JeffMlightfeather
17:34.08JeffMyeah
17:34.20JeffMthey were willing to add an option for Z as up
17:34.37DTRemenak(see that?  that's a requirement ;) )
17:34.38alpha1-2what is Z?? :P
17:34.42alpha1-2new language?
17:34.44JeffMZ is up
17:34.46alpha1-2the ultimate one?
17:34.48DTRemenakZ is up
17:34.50JeffMit's an axis
17:34.53JeffMthe one that goes up
17:34.56DTRemenakX and Y are sideways
17:35.00alpha1-2hehe
17:35.07JeffMorthonormal and all that
17:35.15DTRemenakin many engines Y is up.  that's ugly, in our opinion :)
17:35.31alpha1-2oh axies
17:35.34JeffMit's a holdover from screenspace
17:35.55alpha1-2I am rather nab in 3D technology TBH
17:35.58DTRemenakyeah, it makes sense from the camera's perspective, but the world's perspective is more important :)
17:36.23alpha1-2at least in the implementaion systems
17:37.29alpha1-2and, continuing a little more, who could be interested in test a new engine (like quark or id tech 4)?
17:37.42JeffMdefine "test" ?
17:37.43alpha1-2(of those 12 or more)
17:37.52alpha1-28*
17:38.39alpha1-2or better, more theoretically, in attack the networking/lag issue?
17:39.01JeffMdefine your scope first :)
17:39.19JeffMor at least identify your problem
17:40.34alpha1-2I am the "enterprise owner", let's say. I don't know anything about technology, let's suppose. But I have my clients (players) complaining about some "lag issues". Then I am here and I say "who would be interested in solve this supposed lag issues"? This is what I am saying now
17:41.11JeffMthen you need to get someone to do the analasis for you
17:41.22JeffMso you can know how much it costs
17:41.30DTRemenakfwiw, the "8 active committers" in question are: constitution, manu, kongr45gpen, Flash, blast007, bullet_catcher, JeffM and allejo.  in some cases "active" is a dramatic overstatement ;)
17:41.45alpha1-2that is why I am here, here there are a lot of developers supposedly (and I am one more, not in the role of owner already)
17:41.52DTRemenakhas apparently not committed in the last year...huh.
17:41.57JeffMheh
17:42.09JeffMyou are better then tim IIRC
17:42.11DTRemenakapparently I'm all talk now :)
17:42.19JeffMmost of us are
17:42.28JeffMunless it relates to imports
17:42.47alpha1-2stop talking, do you job! :P
17:42.51alpha1-2your*
17:43.01JeffMgood thing this isn't my job
17:43.02alpha1-2"but my job is talking too!"
17:43.15JeffMI'd have quit due to lack of management by now :)
17:43.48alpha1-2then nobody interested in solve this supposed lag issue?
17:43.50JeffMright now my job is "figure out how to not get my Steri-Strips wet in the shower"
17:43.55alpha1-2solving*
17:44.03DTRemenakvery carefully? :)
17:44.04JeffMthere are various levels of interest
17:44.14JeffMwe have not seen anyone willing to put in the effort
17:44.23DTRemenakhasn't actually played a match of bzflag in maybe six years
17:44.42alpha1-2no way DTRemenak! I invite you to play right now! :D
17:44.44JeffMDTRemenak, the internet says I should wrap my abdomen in plastic wrap
17:44.45DTRemenakit's been longer for JeffM :)
17:44.49JeffMit has been
17:45.05JeffMas I said yesterday I find it unplayable
17:45.29alpha1-2JeffM vs DTRemenak in HIX 1vs1 right now FTW! make your bets!
17:45.37alpha1-2:D
17:45.38JeffMnope
17:45.40DTRemenakhah
17:45.45JeffMI've been waiting 4 days to shower
17:45.50alpha1-2haha
17:46.02alpha1-2oh I read "4 years"
17:46.05alpha1-2:P
17:46.08JeffMdays
17:46.18JeffMthat's how long the surgon said I had to wait
17:46.40alpha1-2JeffM ran away, then (BZ)
17:46.45alpha1-2...
17:47.02alpha1-2DTRemenak  is the winner?
17:47.12DTRemenakpft, only if I showed up:P
17:47.19alpha1-2let's play 1vs1 DTRemenak right now :)
17:47.26alpha1-2want to?
17:47.30DTRemenakno thanks
17:47.34DTRemenak1vs1 was never my style
17:47.34alpha1-2owww
17:47.38Guest21964JeffM: have something removed?
17:47.48*** join/#bzflag trepan (~trepan@unaffiliated/trepan)
17:47.48*** mode/#bzflag [+v trepan] by ChanServ
17:47.49DTRemenakyou put a couple 4-man ducati teams together and I'll think about it ;)
17:47.52JeffMI had my guts put back in the right place
17:48.26JeffMHernia repair
17:49.24alpha1-2they play usually at... afternoon/evening time everyday, let's say. Have a look or wait some time into a server at that time and you will be able to match :)
17:49.32trepanJeffM: hope all goes well
17:49.43JeffMthanks, trepan ,so far so good
17:49.47JeffMit's just all itchy
17:49.54alpha1-2the same, JeffM
17:49.56JeffMand hella booring
17:50.30DTRemenaktime to get some reading done ;)
17:50.31JeffMThe Shatner Girdle is anoying
17:50.41JeffMkinda boored of reading
17:50.49JeffMgoin to try to do requirements docs for capstone today
17:51.20alpha1-2(I recommend for some maps at least 20 minutes of waiting)
17:51.56DTRemenakalpha1-2: or I could play some other game, and have a match immediately ;)
17:52.10alpha1-2free game? :)
17:52.24DTRemenakfree is not my #1 requirement
17:52.41alpha1-2no, I mean when you choose a map that is not anybody into here. I learnt this period.
17:52.52alpha1-2there is not*
17:53.33alpha1-2always there are people playing, in general , even in the hardest early hours
17:53.50DTRemenaksure, playing styles I don't especially like
17:54.21alpha1-2but I choose very often a map I like and I wait (sometimes 5 minutes, some others 10 or more)
17:54.46alpha1-2and in 20 minutes you have a nice macth with let's say 8 players
17:55.14alpha1-2(playing 10 vs 10 is annoying usually)
17:55.30alpha1-2depends on the map OFC
17:55.42DTRemenak4v4 is how it's meant to be done :P
17:55.49alpha1-2oh okay :)
17:55.55alpha1-2but there are huge maps also
17:56.07alpha1-2see 2 tanks
17:56.11alpha1-2huge
17:56.32alpha1-2I play very often Channel Crossing, very smart and well design (Louman)
17:56.36alpha1-2(lately)
17:57.05alpha1-2it was re-included lately (it was lost some time ago (.ca server if I am right))
17:57.10DTRemenakis a purist
17:57.55alpha1-2you can run also a private server with some friends (or bots), I do it sometimes
17:58.21DTRemenakbots are incompetent.  friends are a good way to go.
17:58.26alpha1-2TBH BZ is very fun and smart/complex
17:59.15alpha1-2don't think that bots are too silly eh? have you tried 4 teams CTF 2 players per team? I have scripts for that, very fun
17:59.41alpha1-2and if you get any friend you just have to put out any bot
17:59.47alezakosHave you tried yourself vs 30 bots?
17:59.50alpha1-2a bot*
18:00.20alpha1-2and I am talking of.... autopilot bots, they are better, they can jump and cap
18:00.34alpha1-2(not the -solo version)
18:00.37DTRemenakjump?  who jumps?  :P
18:00.52alpha1-2well CTF okay, I see, yes no jumps
18:01.15alpha1-2but they play HIX also (not too good OFC)
18:01.30alpha1-2vs 30 bots? no alezakos :P
18:02.03alpha1-2in HIX they just bring the flag until under base and they drop it :)
18:02.23alpha1-2and in the second level they can't shoot
18:02.29DTRemenakautopilot has fair tactics (MAC was a fine player), but little strategy
18:03.16DTRemenakboth of those are probably fixable
18:03.29alpha1-2-solo version is too... hard let's say, they aim almost perfectly. You jump you die, almost sure. Not too fun.
18:03.40DTRemenakyou jump in a real match, you die
18:03.52alpha1-2not always ;)
18:03.53DTRemenakdo people not know how to play anymore? :)
18:04.44alpha1-2I have read one time "try to avoid jumping, but if you have to do it, do it into a safe place". Good phrase
18:05.00alpha1-2nto wiki I think
18:05.02alpha1-2into*
18:06.05alpha1-2I will see if I can play this day afternoon/evening in Ducati, I hope you can be there (or one of these days) :)
18:06.40alpha1-2now have to do some things, nice talk, guys :)
18:06.57alpha1-2(and others invited also!)
18:07.19alpha1-2(bring your girlfriends, moms, mates, etc :P)
18:55.35allejooh yay I'm considered "active"
18:55.53*** join/#bzflag plastix- (~plastix@unaffiliated/plast)
20:10.58*** join/#bzflag JeffM (~JeffM@2605:e000:7d02:c700:7140:247c:ba8e:61eb)
21:01.37*** join/#bzflag moultingocciput (~moultingo@ec2-54-201-199-156.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com)
21:23.59*** join/#bzflag alpha1-2 (~alpha1-2@host106.201-252-136.telecom.net.ar)
21:28.08alpha1-2I have an free hour aprox. now: Match in Ducati server. Waiting for you DTRemenak :) . All developers/people invited (to refresh the BZ spirit!). Wating 20 minutes since now ;) ...
21:29.29alpha1-2we are 2 already
21:31.37JeffMwow, 7% of the players then :)
21:35.50alpha1-2we need at least 2 more!
21:36.45alpha1-2now trying USA's server, if not, after, EU's server (where more players are for Duc), take this on!
21:36.50alpha1-2one*
21:37.54alpha1-24 players already, in 10 minutes \o/
21:41.22JeffMamazing
21:42.12allejoyour enthusiasm is impeccable, JeffM :p
21:42.22JeffMjust stating facts :)
21:42.30alpha1-2and DTRemenak still did't appear, we will start a match :)
21:42.46JeffMhe probably has other things to do
21:43.41alpha1-21 more? we are 5 already, almost starting a match
21:44.17allejoJeffM, have you considered a career as a motivational speaker?
21:44.55JeffMI would be horrible at that
21:45.02allejohehe
21:45.45JeffM"if you had to come to this thing, you have already failed!"
21:47.28JeffMooooooooo I can put steam in "virtual reality mode"
21:47.47allejoI would attend your motivational speech
21:48.01allejosteam? so... pretend that the environment is hot during the summer? seems legit
21:48.16JeffMit just said it finished downloading "Steam VR mode"
21:48.29JeffMit's got like 6 more gigs of other crap to get then I can try it
21:48.57allejo6 gigs of steam?
21:49.05JeffMno, other game updates
21:49.12JeffMit's been a while since I fired it up
21:49.42allejoyour dry ice machine?
21:49.47JeffMlaptop
21:49.59allejoohhhhh that type of steam
21:50.03JeffMsays it's chuging along at 6.5MB/s
21:50.19allejooffers jeff some popcorn
21:50.39JeffMI'll let it go while I finish the requiremens for an athentication system
21:52.39*** join/#bzflag tw1sted (~tw1sted@unaffiliated/tw1sted)
21:57.04*** join/#bzflag JeffM_ (~JeffM@2605:e000:7d02:c700:7140:247c:ba8e:61eb)
21:57.33*** join/#bzflag JeffM (~JeffM@unaffiliated/jeffm2501)
21:57.33*** mode/#bzflag [+v JeffM] by ChanServ
22:15.43alpha1-2strating duc fm in eu server after 20 minutes waiting!
22:32.59*** join/#bzflag spldart (~spldart@172.56.14.170)
22:37.05alpha1-2match finished: 15 minutes match, 4 players, 5 observers at the end (4 in major part), even the lags: 3 from USA it seems (between 129 and 172 ms) , 1 from SA (263 ms). 2-2, a tie, but fun :). Mission acomplished, ones just has to have some patience. 20 minutes of waiting not always works though, but generally it does.
22:39.53*** join/#bzflag spldart (~spldart@bzflag/contributor/spldart)
22:39.54*** mode/#bzflag [+v spldart] by ChanServ
22:43.51JeffMalpha1-2, so bzflag is saved?
22:45.15alpha1-2what do you mean? I don't think it is dying :)
22:45.45JeffMcool, so what feaures did you get implemented?
22:46.05alpha1-2(and you DTRemenak didn't appear, NP, I understand), and you spldart? :)
22:47.05alpha1-2no, I can't implement any new feature from my player role. Both player and developer roles are important (between other ones).
22:47.52JeffMwhy do you have to split the roles?
22:48.01alpha1-2you can help free software in several ways: playing, developing, advertising, contributing economically, etc.
22:50.01alpha1-2because they are 2 roles, you can't develop and play at the same instant
22:50.53alpha1-2(2 roles in my case)
22:51.15alpha1-2there are only players, only developers, etc. also
22:52.10alpha1-2theoretically talking. but I can't believe that a good developer never likes to play what he develops :)
22:53.30JeffMI don't see it tat wa
22:53.41alpha1-2there is a feedback/relationship between those big group. Both are important to the "health" of the project. Bugs reports, wished features, forum askings, etc.
22:53.45JeffMpeople are people, they do things :)
22:54.29alpha1-2groups*
22:55.38alpha1-2forum requests*
22:55.53alpha1-2how do you see it?
22:56.11JeffMhuh?
22:57.35alpha1-2[19:53] <JeffM> I don't see it tat wa
22:57.51JeffMthat way
22:57.58alpha1-2how do you see it?
22:58.06JeffMpeople do things
22:58.21JeffMsometimes you play, sometimes you develop, sometimes you pay during developmet
22:58.47alpha1-2you pay whom?
22:58.54JeffMplay
22:58.59alpha1-2oh
22:59.37JeffMand at this point I don't see how playing changes the game in any way
22:59.47alpha1-2yes, I just try to see it into roles, to organize the thoughts
23:00.18alpha1-2do you want to know in my case why do I play for example?
23:00.30JeffMyou should play becasuse it is fun :)
23:00.50alpha1-2OFC, 1) I play cause I like it
23:01.03alpha1-22) I play cause it helps with the project
23:01.17JeffMhow does it help?
23:01.37alpha1-2(bringing people inside, reporting bugs, keeping the comunity live (into Forums for example), etc)
23:01.54alpha1-2community*
23:02.13JeffMdid any of those happen during your play session? or did you just move people who were playing to a diferent server?
23:02.34alpha1-2I comunicate with server owners, admins, players, I make suggestions, try to have a good spirit into the game, etc.
23:05.13alpha1-2if I stay into a server, even as observer, this bring people inside (cause of the server list feature)
23:05.15JeffMand what did that do for "the game" ?
23:05.23alpha1-2brings*
23:06.19JeffMso you being an observer made people download and instal the game?
23:06.31JeffMor did it just bring people who were already playing to a different server?
23:06.44alpha1-2no at that point mostly, it is imposible
23:07.00JeffMso you just moved people from one server to another
23:07.05alpha1-2though people can go to strayers and see the amount of people there also
23:07.05JeffMno net-gain
23:07.29alpha1-2no, wait
23:07.33JeffMand seeing 21 observers intead of 20 observers made someone download the game?
23:08.04alpha1-2let's say there are 20 player playing at 6 p.m. certain timezone, right (into USA)?
23:08.08alpha1-2players*
23:08.25alpha1-2right?
23:08.37alpha1-2follow?
23:08.53JeffMther are 28 on right now
23:09.20alpha1-2it is 8 p. m. to me right now: 28 players, okay
23:09.27JeffMand a ton of observers
23:09.32JeffMlike 20+
23:09.48alpha1-2okay 48 total (even with bzadmins)
23:09.55alpha1-2all helps
23:09.59JeffMhow?
23:10.03alpha1-2wait
23:10.24alpha1-2then I join 1 map, yes? we have 29 players, 49 total, yes?
23:10.51JeffMsure
23:11.10alpha1-2then the next minute,  another player load BZ and run the server list and see all the servers with some players inside
23:11.37alpha1-2and he likes *my* map (with 1 player)
23:11.48JeffMsure, but that's someone who was going to play anyway, that is why they started bzflag
23:11.54JeffMthat is not really a new player
23:11.57alpha1-2then he joins it: we have then 30 players, 50 total, yes?
23:12.03JeffMthat's just people using the software
23:12.08JeffMi does not "help"
23:12.15JeffMit also does not "hinder"
23:12.20JeffMbut it does not change anything
23:12.26alpha1-2wait, I am talking of the people that have *already* the game installed
23:12.28JeffMit is null-effect
23:12.33JeffMI Know
23:12.48JeffMand I am saying that with JUST those people, playing has no real effect on the game
23:12.49alpha1-2don't hurry, we will go where you want in a little
23:12.55JeffMit does not offer any benifit
23:13.01DTRemenakJeffM: retention has an important trailing effect.  if I see people playing maps I like today, I am more likely to play *tomorrow*
23:13.11alpha1-2OFC
23:13.23alpha1-2it's very important
23:13.32JeffMDTRemenak, sure, but those people were going to play no mater what
23:13.36DTRemenakif I sign on today and nobody is playing anything interesting, I'm more likely to just not check tomorrow
23:13.37JeffMregardless of his actions :)
23:13.42JeffMthis is true
23:13.43DTRemenaktoday, sure, but not necessarily tomorrow
23:13.52JeffMit keeps the last death off ;)
23:14.01alpha1-2and people don't play just to "save"/mantain the game, people usually play cause of my #1 reason: they like it
23:14.02DTRemenakyes...retention
23:14.21JeffMyes they play because it gives them enjoyment
23:14.30JeffMsome like the challenge, some like to make people mad
23:14.43DTRemenaksome like the community, even
23:15.01JeffMyup
23:15.10alpha1-2yes, interesting community/people here, true. And worldwide too.
23:15.50alpha1-2I think cause it is an smart/complex and not too violent game (and fun, creative).
23:16.41alpha1-2then, that is something important, the nowadays player database, let's say
23:16.52alpha1-2let's say 100/200
23:17.00alpha1-2hard to know well
23:17.33alpha1-2but the other part that you refer, JeffM, is also important: bringing new people inside the game
23:17.40alpha1-2refer at*
23:18.21alpha1-2they both are related. Many people come/can come cause of a nowadays player that invite them
23:18.45alpha1-2it is a kind of advertisement
23:18.58JeffMthat is generaly the only way to retain a new player is to have an old player sit with them
23:18.59alpha1-2"personal advertisement", let's say :)
23:21.15alpha1-2true, and not necesarely an old player in terms of age, for example Snake, he is teen if I am right, very young, almost a kid, but he could (past) bring some mates (from school) to play in
23:21.43allejoaww where's the notifier bot :(
23:22.00alpha1-2at least I know of 1. In other case I knew about 3 or 4 school (teen) mates
23:22.29alpha1-2oh and Snake has his little brother also
23:22.43alpha1-2just a little case of example
23:24.32alpha1-2well, forum administrators are important too, the mainainer also OFC, and the leagues, server owners, server admins, who launch events, web designers, and the developers, as I said
23:24.41alpha1-2maintainer*
23:25.20alpha1-2it is nice cause it is collaborative and all can participate with they like/can
23:25.43alpha1-2even just playing(observing or talking others of the game
23:25.50alpha1-2playing/observing
23:27.03alpha1-2and being free/libre also is important cause everybody can download it and try it
23:27.06alpha1-2OFC
23:28.46alpha1-2in my opinion is one of the best free and complex games with 3D going around, if not the best
23:29.38Notify03BZFlag:Allejo * 8826 /Server_Permissions: Added showAdmin permission
23:30.01allejooh Notify notifies about wiki changes but not code changes >.>
23:32.05Notify03BZFlag:Allejo * 8827 /Server_Permissions: Added note that hideAdmin supersedes showAdmin
23:36.02alpha1-2Oh and I forgot but it's important: all the contributions are always *voluntary*, though there is certain level of compromise OFC, then, theoretically, nobody can force nobody to do anything in an specific period of time.
23:37.20alpha1-2in *any* specific period of time

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