| 00:00.03 | alpha1-2 | that is why I like BZ too :) |
| 00:00.29 | JeffM | there is indication that we could get a big speed incrase by changing to GL3 for our drawing |
| 00:00.42 | JeffM | moving to vertex arrays is a big boost |
| 00:02.04 | alpha1-2 | then no "Low system requirements" anymore? |
| 00:02.41 | alpha1-2 | oh, but you could set the high quality off or it would be imposible? |
| 00:02.43 | blast007 | at this point it's just talk |
| 00:03.00 | blast007 | it would be a rather major undertaking to do that |
| 00:03.36 | JeffM | it would not be a quality thing |
| 00:03.58 | JeffM | I'd still say tha we had low requiremens |
| 00:04.03 | JeffM | jut not as low as before |
| 00:04.25 | JeffM | our curent requierments are so trivial that there is not even a point in mentioning them |
| 00:04.36 | JeffM | yeah we require a "pentium" |
| 00:05.03 | alpha1-2 | JeffM: wow it opened a window/form at least |
| 00:05.14 | alpha1-2 | (64 bit version) |
| 00:05.17 | JeffM | ok |
| 00:05.42 | JeffM | we'd be talking about supporting an API that was released in 2008.... |
| 00:05.45 | JeffM | it's had some time |
| 00:05.45 | alpha1-2 | any resolution/quality wouldbe fine? |
| 00:05.53 | JeffM | thats up to you |
| 00:06.01 | JeffM | it's your computer |
| 00:06.19 | alpha1-2 | aborted :/ |
| 00:06.44 | JeffM | get a compliant GL impelemtation then |
| 00:06.56 | alpha1-2 | what GL is it? |
| 00:07.02 | JeffM | the Geforce 8 series, shipped in 2006 |
| 00:07.17 | JeffM | it'll probalby downgrade to as low as 3 since it uses shaders |
| 00:07.35 | alpha1-2 | ah okay |
| 00:07.46 | alpha1-2 | I asked before: apart, we are talking of hardware or software finally? |
| 00:07.58 | JeffM | it's always a combination |
| 00:08.01 | JeffM | in your case it's hardware |
| 00:08.12 | alpha1-2 | it is not all about upgrading th "driver" let's say? |
| 00:08.16 | JeffM | you don't support shader languag 4 |
| 00:08.19 | JeffM | no |
| 00:08.34 | JeffM | your pixel units don't have enough registers |
| 00:09.32 | JeffM | you probably have 32 instruction slots per unit and the shader will assume at least 512 |
| 00:09.54 | alpha1-2 | okay, okay |
| 00:10.05 | alpha1-2 | make a video then ;) |
| 00:10.13 | JeffM | that dosn't show how it controlls |
| 00:10.18 | JeffM | that's the point of the demp |
| 00:10.22 | JeffM | demo |
| 00:10.29 | JeffM | so people can see how it feels |
| 00:10.39 | JeffM | mouse left/right turns |
| 00:10.46 | JeffM | mouse up/down moves the turret up/down |
| 00:10.47 | alpha1-2 | you can show how you can divide turrets and motions |
| 00:10.54 | alpha1-2 | movements |
| 00:10.57 | JeffM | W/S move the tank forward andb ackwards |
| 00:11.12 | JeffM | this demo shows what works, not what does not work |
| 00:12.04 | alpha1-2 | okay, then up/down culd be done with the head in VR |
| 00:12.30 | JeffM | sure |
| 00:12.39 | JeffM | but then how do you prevent a person from looking left/right? |
| 00:12.55 | alpha1-2 | well, it is just the first step |
| 00:12.59 | JeffM | when the eye's don't follow the head people throw up |
| 00:13.07 | alpha1-2 | as long the gameplay is simple |
| 00:13.08 | JeffM | you have to have a good design in mind |
| 00:13.16 | JeffM | not just waste time hooking stuf up |
| 00:13.46 | alpha1-2 | we must go "step by step" |
| 00:14.05 | JeffM | the code changes to bzflag are non-trival |
| 00:14.14 | alpha1-2 | I imagine |
| 00:14.15 | JeffM | so just going step by step is dumb |
| 00:14.30 | JeffM | when you are not even shure it's a good idea |
| 00:14.46 | alpha1-2 | parallel branch |
| 00:15.00 | JeffM | thatis obvious |
| 00:15.02 | alpha1-2 | I/D branch :) |
| 00:15.06 | JeffM | but it's still a waste of time |
| 00:15.17 | JeffM | what you are really talking about is a differen game |
| 00:16.10 | alpha1-2 | well, then JeffM, finally, you think that VR is after any other chage to design, or nowadays it can be implemented with this gameplay? |
| 00:16.15 | JeffM | just to make VR work you've changed bzflag gameplay and made it less simple |
| 00:16.39 | JeffM | I think VR can work in a tank game |
| 00:16.46 | JeffM | I think it can work in a simple tank game |
| 00:16.52 | JeffM | just not this simple tank game |
| 00:17.03 | JeffM | not if we want it to stay the same as it is now |
| 00:17.28 | JeffM | I think a tank game that supports VR and turret moption would be fine |
| 00:17.30 | JeffM | fun |
| 00:17.32 | JeffM | very fun |
| 00:17.36 | alpha1-2 | bu you still don't have clear which changes would be necessary to implement it, right? |
| 00:17.55 | JeffM | that is not it at all. I don't think bzflag is that game |
| 00:18.01 | JeffM | it would be too different from bzflag |
| 00:18.08 | JeffM | it would not be BZFlag anymore |
| 00:18.17 | alpha1-2 | oh, didn't read your last phrase, sorry |
| 00:18.19 | JeffM | and if it is not bzflag anymore, why start with bzflag? |
| 00:19.00 | alpha1-2 | you are talking of World of tank style maybe ? |
| 00:19.12 | alpha1-2 | World of Tanks* |
| 00:19.28 | JeffM | that is an MMO and a differnt beast altogether |
| 00:19.57 | alpha1-2 | it has turrets and movements by separate |
| 00:20.05 | JeffM | I am thinking about it from a pure design standpoint not atsteics |
| 00:20.14 | JeffM | yeah, it's a realistic tank simulator :) |
| 00:20.19 | alpha1-2 | I saw another similar and simple to... |
| 00:20.23 | JeffM | not very simple :) |
| 00:20.30 | JeffM | bzflag is an action game |
| 00:20.30 | alpha1-2 | is finding... |
| 00:20.35 | alpha1-2 | too* |
| 00:20.52 | JeffM | our motions are simplifed so people don't have to think about them |
| 00:24.54 | alpha1-2 | see this (not what I saw, and I don't like much Unity BTW): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVYnT3L4oHk |
| 00:25.53 | alpha1-2 | it doesn't go up/down it seems, though |
| 00:26.26 | JeffM | why don't you like unity? |
| 00:26.32 | alpha1-2 | hehe |
| 00:26.37 | JeffM | it is one of the most cross platform systems out there |
| 00:26.49 | alpha1-2 | it is no Free |
| 00:26.53 | alpha1-2 | not* |
| 00:26.55 | JeffM | nether is food |
| 00:27.01 | JeffM | but you like food right? |
| 00:27.32 | JeffM | and notice how he can't see where he's driving |
| 00:27.34 | alpha1-2 | I like Free Soft mostly, like Ogre or so |
| 00:27.45 | JeffM | Ogre is just a drawing engine |
| 00:27.56 | JeffM | no iphone version of ogre |
| 00:29.09 | alpha1-2 | oh, I think I refered to Torque 3D |
| 00:29.41 | JeffM | torqe is more, a lot worse then ogre but does not have good linux support |
| 00:29.50 | JeffM | have you ever used torque? |
| 00:30.19 | khonkhortisan | I got 10 air shots in a row in blam |
| 00:30.33 | JeffM | nice |
| 00:30.38 | JeffM | isn't real physics fun :) |
| 00:31.17 | JeffM | I want to hook up right click to fire a guided rocket |
| 00:32.07 | alpha1-2 | the code is into github and BSD license if I am right |
| 00:32.09 | khonkhortisan | I couldn't tell when the beam was supposed to ricochet |
| 00:32.17 | alpha1-2 | I tried to compile tim ago |
| 00:32.27 | JeffM | alpha1-2, it is, it still sucks on linux and is very hard to use |
| 00:32.34 | JeffM | do you know why the open sourced it? |
| 00:32.42 | JeffM | it wasn't to be nice |
| 00:32.46 | khonkhortisan | they wanted other people to find their bugs? |
| 00:32.50 | alpha1-2 | it is the best Free kind of project I know of |
| 00:32.58 | JeffM | oh god no |
| 00:33.05 | JeffM | they open sourced it because they could not sell it |
| 00:33.11 | JeffM | and they had an asset app store |
| 00:33.14 | alpha1-2 | :O |
| 00:33.16 | JeffM | give away the engnie |
| 00:33.20 | JeffM | sell assets to kiddies |
| 00:33.24 | JeffM | take 30% |
| 00:33.35 | JeffM | nobody was buying the engine |
| 00:33.42 | JeffM | so open source it, fire 75% of the developers |
| 00:33.52 | JeffM | and just be a middle man for assets and support contracts |
| 00:34.22 | alpha1-2 | yes, like many good Free soft projects (Frefox, Libreoffice, etc) |
| 00:34.37 | alpha1-2 | free and prop. versions |
| 00:34.49 | alpha1-2 | not bad |
| 00:34.50 | JeffM | no, they just do an apple style app store for assets |
| 00:34.58 | JeffM | want a tank, 20$ |
| 00:35.04 | alpha1-2 | but tell me another 3d engine better than tha one |
| 00:35.07 | JeffM | they get 6$ |
| 00:35.18 | JeffM | all of them |
| 00:35.22 | JeffM | ogre is way better as a 3d engine |
| 00:35.23 | JeffM | by far |
| 00:35.23 | alpha1-2 | Free* |
| 00:35.28 | JeffM | irrilict |
| 00:35.33 | JeffM | lightfeather |
| 00:35.38 | JeffM | quake |
| 00:35.49 | JeffM | there are many that are better then torque |
| 00:35.57 | alpha1-2 | I calrify I am not an expert on 3D, though |
| 00:36.18 | alpha1-2 | nor an average programmer on it neither |
| 00:36.23 | khonkhortisan | blender, but that doesn't count for games |
| 00:36.35 | JeffM | are they still doing blendgame? |
| 00:37.06 | khonkhortisan | it's still there, but they focus on exporters to other engines |
| 00:37.13 | JeffM | that makes the most sense |
| 00:37.18 | alpha1-2 | okay, then, why you didn't choose any of them instead of Unity that is not Free? |
| 00:37.24 | JeffM | it's hard to be experts in evetything |
| 00:37.43 | JeffM | alpha1-2, because most of them are ONLY 3d engines, and have a very limited platform set |
| 00:38.07 | JeffM | no or limited mobile |
| 00:38.19 | JeffM | ogre at least can be built on android |
| 00:38.34 | JeffM | but even then you'd have to write droid speciic code around it |
| 00:39.02 | JeffM | beilve me, I wish unity was open source, but I understand why it isn't |
| 00:39.07 | JeffM | people have to eat :)( |
| 00:39.25 | JeffM | and it simply has one of he best feature sets out there for the price range |
| 00:39.38 | JeffM | and an extreemly good and easy to use IDE |
| 00:41.13 | JeffM | I mean do you think I built that linux version on a linux machine? |
| 00:41.25 | alpha1-2 | "Unity is a cross-platform game creation system developed by Unity Technologies, including a game engine and integrated development environment (IDE)." |
| 00:41.35 | JeffM | yup |
| 00:41.58 | alpha1-2 | just because it is a "game creation system" then? all in one? you want all the easy way? :) |
| 00:42.21 | JeffM | I want to concentrate on the game, not the druge of getting the peices together in order to make a game |
| 00:42.22 | khonkhortisan | I have to run unity in wine then use their server to compile for linux |
| 00:42.24 | JeffM | time is limited |
| 00:42.41 | JeffM | would you rather make a building explode or write a linked list implementation? |
| 00:43.08 | JeffM | khonkhortisan, I just clicked "build" :) |
| 00:43.11 | alpha1-2 | since you like more windows than linux I can understan you ;) |
| 00:43.13 | JeffM | and it spit out some files |
| 00:43.22 | JeffM | alpha1-2, you asume muc |
| 00:43.26 | JeffM | I like what is useful |
| 00:43.26 | alpha1-2 | haha |
| 00:43.33 | JeffM | linux is not currently useful for this |
| 00:43.35 | JeffM | so I use windows |
| 00:43.42 | JeffM | for web hosting, linux is useful |
| 00:43.46 | JeffM | windows is not |
| 00:43.49 | JeffM | so i use linux |
| 00:44.02 | JeffM | I care more about what I want to do, not how I'm goig to do it |
| 00:44.16 | JeffM | I do not belive my operatinhg system choice will damn my eternal soul |
| 00:44.24 | JeffM | I just want to blow a spaceship up |
| 00:45.00 | JeffM | if linux had a beter user experience then I would use it |
| 00:45.18 | JeffM | at present linux user interface is scatterd and confusing, there are too many "standards" |
| 00:45.31 | JeffM | very application looks different |
| 00:45.36 | alpha1-2 | I can see that the prblem is that still there is not a "game creation system" like what you want GPL kind, because it must be something relatively new (talking of 3D one), then maybe in the future |
| 00:45.45 | khonkhortisan | oh right, you have to set gtk and kde themes to match |
| 00:46.03 | JeffM | khonkhortisan, and hope the application develiper didn't "do something odd" |
| 00:46.24 | JeffM | it is getting better |
| 00:46.26 | JeffM | just slowly |
| 00:47.01 | khonkhortisan | I found a few programs that mixed reading keycode (directly from the keyboard) and keysym (after the keyboard layout is applied) where certain buttons would do nothing - that's 'something odd' |
| 00:47.16 | JeffM | if I had the rquirement of using a C++ open source system, I'd use ogre, raknet, and OpenAL |
| 00:47.24 | JeffM | and some glue code for input devices |
| 00:47.57 | JeffM | and then get someone to write blender exporters |
| 00:48.12 | JeffM | that'd take several months |
| 00:48.22 | JeffM | then it would be similar to unity |
| 00:48.38 | JeffM | and at that point you haven't even started making a game :) |
| 00:49.11 | JeffM | oh and something for physics |
| 00:49.14 | JeffM | I know they exist |
| 00:49.29 | JeffM | I don't know if they will use GPU cycles tho |
| 00:50.28 | alpha1-2 | and then you had learned a lot of useful things in th way, true? :) that will be useful for the future still |
| 00:50.41 | JeffM | if the C++ requirement was removed, I'd use OpenTK, and Lidgrin |
| 00:51.00 | JeffM | do you think I don't have to do real programing in Unity? |
| 00:51.06 | JeffM | that it's all drag and drop? |
| 00:52.08 | khonkhortisan | RakNet is now open source
Download your 30-day evaluation. That confuses me. |
| 00:52.11 | alpha1-2 | what I think of propietary systems is that you have tied hands in any way to their technology, but with GPL kind of you have always the security of what you can do now you will be able to do tomorow |
| 00:52.40 | JeffM | no you don't know that |
| 00:52.50 | JeffM | because the maintainer of the open sorce lib may change it |
| 00:52.55 | JeffM | now you lost your API |
| 00:52.57 | alpha1-2 | I use some prp. soft too, like Flash for example, because Free versions are not still enough good, though |
| 00:53.10 | JeffM | with a comercial product they won't do that because then it will make people give them less money |
| 00:53.16 | JeffM | flash is stupid |
| 00:53.28 | khonkhortisan | flash dropped linux support, html5 is the future |
| 00:53.35 | alpha1-2 | too see videos is not stupid |
| 00:53.36 | JeffM | yeah as a concept it's lame |
| 00:54.07 | JeffM | thats why I like that unity 5 is going to have the ability to generate your project as a HTML5/WebGL page |
| 00:54.17 | khonkhortisan | If I used something proprietary, I might find a bug and not be allowed to fix it |
| 00:54.27 | alpha1-2 | if th maintainer, for example Tim, would change the licence, another team would appear for sure |
| 00:54.41 | JeffM | he's changed the license once |
| 00:54.50 | alpha1-2 | to LGPL |
| 00:54.54 | JeffM | I actualy have a version of bzflag that tim does not own and can not give to him :) |
| 00:55.36 | JeffM | khonkhortisan, thats why you chooise you vendors carefuly, see how they react to change requests |
| 00:55.52 | JeffM | not all vendors were created the same :) |
| 00:55.56 | alpha1-2 | oh HTML 5 seems nice as far as I know (WebM, multimedia, etc) |
| 00:56.00 | JeffM | usualy you can work around issues too |
| 00:56.08 | JeffM | since you have a full programing language |
| 00:56.23 | alpha1-2 | not defined still though I think (HTML5) |
| 00:57.16 | JeffM | I found a bug in unity during one of my classes, I reproted it, they said they had found it and it was going to be fixed soon and they offered me some help on getting around it |
| 00:57.23 | JeffM | and I had not given them single dime |
| 00:57.31 | alpha1-2 | regarding to the last video I put, then talking of BZ VR you mean, what wold you do? or still not sure? |
| 00:57.48 | alpha1-2 | similar to it? |
| 00:58.04 | alpha1-2 | I can see tank moven¡mets differing to turret one |
| 00:58.08 | alpha1-2 | as you said |
| 00:58.15 | blast007 | alpha1-2: WebM isn't part of HTML5.. the spec does not define any specific codec |
| 00:58.42 | JeffM | alpha1-2, I wold not tie a turret to the view at all |
| 00:58.52 | JeffM | I don't know why you keep wanting to do that |
| 00:58.57 | JeffM | nobody wants to aim with there head |
| 01:00.06 | alpha1-2 | blast007: I had read that there were a discussion about codecs (free or not free), but ddn't follow it all |
| 01:00.37 | alpha1-2 | that is why Isaid "not defined still though I think (HTML5)" |
| 01:02.28 | JeffM | heh torqe is open sorce, so what one of the 736 forks should I pick to get linux support? |
| 01:02.50 | blast007 | the middle one |
| 01:03.39 | alpha1-2 | github uses "fork" word in a some confusing way |
| 01:03.49 | JeffM | nope |
| 01:03.51 | JeffM | it's a fork |
| 01:04.01 | JeffM | it is a copy of the code with it's own history |
| 01:04.14 | JeffM | you can merge between forks |
| 01:04.19 | JeffM | but that's not a github thing |
| 01:04.23 | JeffM | that's a git thing |
| 01:04.23 | alpha1-2 | then JeffM, finally, you don't think that VR would fit easily on BZ? |
| 01:04.33 | JeffM | alpha1-2, it has nothing to do wiht "easy" |
| 01:04.39 | JeffM | that's what I keep saying |
| 01:04.43 | JeffM | it does not fit in ANY WAY |
| 01:04.50 | JeffM | it is not a good idea |
| 01:04.54 | alpha1-2 | ah okay |
| 01:05.08 | JeffM | bzflag would NOT be enhanced by head tracking |
| 01:05.12 | JeffM | it would be diminished |
| 01:05.23 | JeffM | and the rift if rather useless with out head tracking |
| 01:05.26 | alpha1-2 | why is it always hard to me to und.? |
| 01:06.08 | alpha1-2 | (rethorical question) |
| 01:06.11 | JeffM | I dunno, you also don't like open source programing langauges :) |
| 01:06.46 | alpha1-2 | oh man you are killing me :P |
| 01:07.14 | JeffM | unity is based on ECMA-334 and that's open source |
| 01:07.36 | alpha1-2 | yu can't use it for commercial projects |
| 01:07.49 | JeffM | huh? |
| 01:07.53 | alpha1-2 | w/o paying a few |
| 01:07.56 | alpha1-2 | fee |
| 01:07.59 | JeffM | huh? |
| 01:08.03 | JeffM | who said that? |
| 01:08.10 | JeffM | Unity free is super cool |
| 01:08.17 | alpha1-2 | is finding |
| 01:09.20 | alpha1-2 | nity Pro is available for a fee, and Unity Free has no fee for noncommercial and low-end use |
| 01:09.26 | JeffM | if you make over 100,000 USD in a year on a single product youhave to buy the full version |
| 01:09.45 | JeffM | if you have made 100,000$ then spend the 1500 and get a better product :) |
| 01:09.56 | JeffM | they limit free mostly by features |
| 01:10.15 | JeffM | you can even now do iOS and Android in the free version |
| 01:10.55 | JeffM | price wise it's VERY cheap compared to other comerical engines |
| 01:11.10 | alpha1-2 | I just try to avoid propietary soft as many as I can |
| 01:11.23 | JeffM | they also keep contributing back to mono and monodev open source projects :) |
| 01:11.32 | JeffM | so really they are supporting open source |
| 01:11.35 | alpha1-2 | and you can make money with Free Soft too |
| 01:11.42 | JeffM | yeah and that's why you are stick on GL 2.1 |
| 01:11.46 | JeffM | you can |
| 01:11.50 | JeffM | it's just harder |
| 01:11.59 | JeffM | make food free, then we can make all the software free :) |
| 01:12.01 | alpha1-2 | I don't mind much about new tech |
| 01:12.15 | alpha1-2 | while what I have is useful to me |
| 01:12.49 | alpha1-2 | it is free but not like "free drink" you know more like freedom |
| 01:13.32 | JeffM | again, make food free then we can talk about the freedom of silly computer games ;) |
| 01:13.40 | khonkhortisan | food can be free, just pay your taxes |
| 01:13.46 | alpha1-2 | I like to use "Free/Libre Software" better, because Spanish "Libre" word means freedom |
| 01:13.48 | JeffM | can, but isn't |
| 01:14.07 | JeffM | solve world hunger then you'll finda lot more people will be willing to do work for no pay |
| 01:14.28 | alpha1-2 | in the other hand you have monopolies also |
| 01:14.38 | alpha1-2 | and that is not fair at all |
| 01:14.47 | khonkhortisan | a working food distribution system and enough wells drilled |
| 01:14.50 | JeffM | who said life had to be fair? |
| 01:15.05 | alpha1-2 | the common sense? |
| 01:15.09 | alpha1-2 | the concience? |
| 01:15.12 | alpha1-2 | God? |
| 01:15.22 | JeffM | those are all things in your head :) |
| 01:15.23 | alpha1-2 | the godness and the evilness fight? |
| 01:15.30 | khonkhortisan | If you own a small business, what's to stop you from becoming a monopoly? the economy? the government? |
| 01:15.37 | JeffM | i's very hard to argue morality in those contexts |
| 01:15.58 | alpha1-2 | or you are telling me you like to *destroy* th competence and be the only one in the market if you can? |
| 01:16.02 | JeffM | try using utilitarinaism, it works well for the argument you are trying to say |
| 01:16.32 | JeffM | alpha1-2, what I like to do does not dictate the state of human society |
| 01:16.42 | JeffM | and has no bearing on your argument at all |
| 01:17.11 | JeffM | what you want to say is that a monopoly does not provide the maximum benifit for the most people |
| 01:17.21 | alpha1-2 | oh, man I know about Microsoft and all other enterprises being kind of monopolies, and that is forgiven not just by my mind if not by kaws |
| 01:17.33 | blast007 | I think my Android tablet has better OpenGL support than your laptop, alpha1-2 ;) |
| 01:17.46 | JeffM | you mean the people who were the largest contributors to linux for a while? |
| 01:18.07 | alpha1-2 | forbidden* |
| 01:18.14 | JeffM | truth |
| 01:18.17 | alpha1-2 | laws* |
| 01:18.30 | JeffM | huh? |
| 01:18.42 | JeffM | they were not legaly reqired to contribut to linux |
| 01:19.06 | alpha1-2 | and what about *your* notebook, blast007? ;) |
| 01:19.08 | blast007 | My tablet almost supports OpenGL ES 3.0, lacking some stuff like FP32 pixel shaders (instead having FP20) and EAC/ETC2 texture compression. |
| 01:19.18 | alpha1-2 | it is older than mine |
| 01:19.25 | blast007 | I don't expect my laptop to play modern games |
| 01:19.33 | blast007 | it is to type code on and make websites |
| 01:19.53 | alpha1-2 | well, I can play many simple 3d games, andI am happy :) |
| 01:21.13 | JeffM | you know MS wrote some of your linux kernel code right? |
| 01:21.29 | alpha1-2 | apart it is much more simple to work with a desktop machine and putting in diff. 3D cards than with NB |
| 01:21.34 | khonkhortisan | I feel like saying eew to that, but I know the perfect person to tell that to. |
| 01:22.02 | alpha1-2 | simpler* |
| 01:22.04 | JeffM | khonkhortisan, they did a lot to get the kernel working with the HyperV system they make |
| 01:22.09 | JeffM | so they just started submiting patches |
| 01:22.32 | JeffM | at one point they made top 20 list of contributors |
| 01:22.34 | alpha1-2 | oh, and now Microsoft is an angel, right? :)) |
| 01:22.41 | blast007 | alpha1-2: yes |
| 01:22.44 | alpha1-2 | haha |
| 01:22.48 | JeffM | no but they were never a devil ether ;) |
| 01:22.53 | JeffM | he world is not black and white |
| 01:22.55 | khonkhortisan | my dad hates ms, I'll mention that to him |
| 01:23.00 | alpha1-2 | ahhh that is why Gates created a Foundation... :P |
| 01:23.15 | blast007 | I guess it depends if you compare current Microsoft to old Google or new Google |
| 01:23.16 | JeffM | wow you are just a conclusion jumper arn't you |
| 01:23.32 | JeffM | MS has open sourced a lot of it's stuff |
| 01:23.39 | JeffM | just not it's OS kernel |
| 01:23.52 | JeffM | they make a lot of things |
| 01:23.58 | JeffM | Apple makes a lot of things |
| 01:24.02 | JeffM | open sources less of it |
| 01:24.29 | JeffM | they will do what is best for them |
| 01:24.33 | alpha1-2 | well, I just know that the FSF movement gave *a lot* to the Soft industry |
| 01:24.45 | JeffM | and if that means opening something up so more people use it, then they do that |
| 01:24.56 | JeffM | opening the OS would not buy them anything |
| 01:24.58 | alpha1-2 | and maybe w/o that we would live in a monopolized world |
| 01:25.12 | alpha1-2 | (talking of Soft mostly) |
| 01:25.31 | JeffM | you already live in an oligarchy |
| 01:25.47 | JeffM | why focus on the software part that isn't really a monopoly like other things are |
| 01:25.58 | JeffM | fix the big ones first |
| 01:26.06 | alpha1-2 | I know about soft most |
| 01:26.13 | alpha1-2 | ly* |
| 01:26.20 | alpha1-2 | it's my part of the work |
| 01:26.23 | JeffM | yet it is one of the least important aspects of human socieity in the long run :) |
| 01:26.40 | alpha1-2 | oh man, tere are soft anywhere! |
| 01:26.42 | JeffM | a lot of people just want to get a task done |
| 01:26.56 | JeffM | not run a manpage to learn a confsing list of keystrokes |
| 01:27.14 | alpha1-2 | and further, soft handles information, that is *really* important |
| 01:27.15 | JeffM | there is software everhwyere, but how it's licensed does NOT affect the job it does |
| 01:27.23 | JeffM | people use software to do a job |
| 01:27.26 | JeffM | that's it |
| 01:28.04 | JeffM | the a coke machine can run linux and do the job they will use linux, if windows will do it and it's cheaper overall they will use windows, if they have to write there own code they will write there own code |
| 01:28.13 | JeffM | it does not matter at all to the end result |
| 01:28.16 | JeffM | software is a tool |
| 01:28.20 | JeffM | people use it |
| 01:28.40 | alpha1-2 | it is important to me and for many people |
| 01:28.51 | JeffM | some, people |
| 01:29.04 | JeffM | as a percentage you are very low |
| 01:29.14 | alpha1-2 | may not nec. means the majority, just lot of people relatively |
| 01:29.14 | JeffM | and if paid you will use what you have to use :) |
| 01:29.39 | alpha1-2 | *"many" not nec. means the majority, just "lot of people" relativelly* |
| 01:29.58 | JeffM | most people use software they do not modify it |
| 01:30.02 | JeffM | or ever want to |
| 01:30.11 | JeffM | most people don't want to fix a toilet |
| 01:30.16 | JeffM | they just want it to work |
| 01:30.39 | alpha1-2 | I am not totally against propietary soft, though. Just to clarify |
| 01:30.53 | JeffM | a signfigant percentage of pogramers have an opion on open source, but that is a very samll subset of the population |
| 01:31.05 | alpha1-2 | Just I support mostly Free/libre Soft |
| 01:31.17 | JeffM | you just want bzflag to be hard to play :) |
| 01:31.39 | blast007 | alpha1-2: do you ever use an ATM? |
| 01:31.48 | alpha1-2 | oh man, sometimes I wonder why you still like BZ :) |
| 01:31.49 | khonkhortisan | inb4 bitcoin |
| 01:32.20 | JeffM | or eat at a resurant? |
| 01:32.58 | blast007 | many ATMs and Point-of-Sale systems run embedded Windows |
| 01:33.13 | JeffM | I'd say most |
| 01:34.05 | JeffM | at least the ones that arn't iPads now |
| 01:34.14 | alpha1-2 | blast007: I am not too good at networks, do you mean about low speed cards? |
| 01:34.35 | JeffM | Bank Automated Cash Machine |
| 01:34.52 | JeffM | do you use money? |
| 01:35.22 | khonkhortisan | We could go even further and say that the cells you're made of aren't even open-source. |
| 01:35.23 | blast007 | most paper currency run Windows |
| 01:35.30 | khonkhortisan | We've mapped DNA, but are still working on proteins. |
| 01:35.38 | JeffM | if you use money you use windows :) |
| 01:35.51 | alpha1-2 | yeah, yeah, prpietary soft now is the best... |
| 01:36.01 | blast007 | if you use money, the terrorists win... |
| 01:36.11 | khonkhortisan | open-source is a cancer. If proprietary can do it now, open-source will also do it later. |
| 01:36.37 | alpha1-2 | let's make BZ propietary!!..... cri cri.... |
| 01:36.52 | blast007 | alpha1-2: BZFlag started out proprietary |
| 01:37.12 | alpha1-2 | uh, you are talking of the starts of th soft? |
| 01:37.30 | alpha1-2 | the soft started free in the very beggining |
| 01:37.35 | khonkhortisan | no |
| 01:37.41 | blast007 | nope |
| 01:37.43 | alpha1-2 | ask Stallman |
| 01:37.53 | blast007 | what does Stallman have to do with BZFlag? |
| 01:38.00 | khonkhortisan | mismatched topic |
| 01:38.07 | alpha1-2 | they both are soft |
| 01:38.12 | alpha1-2 | both of them* |
| 01:38.47 | khonkhortisan | Before bzflag existed, there wasn't bzflag. When it existed, it was proprietary. And tim riker saw that it was bad. So he spoke to the program and it became open-source. |
| 01:38.47 | alpha1-2 | if yu want to talk about begginings, go to the very beggining and you will und. better the rpesent |
| 01:39.33 | alpha1-2 | and after some time BZ appeared |
| 01:39.40 | alpha1-2 | timeline ;) |
| 01:39.44 | blast007 | A wild BZ appears! |
| 01:39.51 | khonkhortisan | it wasn't very effective. |
| 01:39.51 | alpha1-2 | hehe |
| 01:40.03 | alpha1-2 | and they made lot of money eh? ;) |
| 01:40.25 | JeffM | alpha1-2, you know bzflag was closed source at one point right? |
| 01:40.41 | alpha1-2 | into Sillico Graphics I think |
| 01:40.46 | JeffM | and windows |
| 01:40.48 | alpha1-2 | yes |
| 01:40.49 | JeffM | and linux |
| 01:40.51 | JeffM | and mac |
| 01:40.54 | JeffM | all of it |
| 01:41.04 | alpha1-2 | what is your point? |
| 01:41.14 | JeffM | I was part of the team that worked on it before it went open source :) |
| 01:41.21 | alpha1-2 | nice! |
| 01:41.21 | khonkhortisan | oh cool |
| 01:41.35 | alpha1-2 | you must be pretty old... joke :) |
| 01:41.39 | JeffM | I am |
| 01:41.44 | JeffM | probalby much older then you |
| 01:41.54 | alpha1-2 | hmm, dont think so :) |
| 01:42.14 | JeffM | perhaps |
| 01:42.14 | alpha1-2 | you are older than blast? |
| 01:42.19 | JeffM | very much so |
| 01:42.26 | alpha1-2 | than Bullet? |
| 01:42.32 | JeffM | I don't know |
| 01:42.34 | JeffM | but maybe |
| 01:42.35 | alpha1-2 | hehe |
| 01:42.37 | blast007 | is this 20 questions? |
| 01:42.48 | JeffM | my gut says we are similar ages |
| 01:43.12 | blast007 | my gut says "insert bacon" |
| 01:43.14 | alpha1-2 | I have *some time* in computers too, and no matters much the exact ages |
| 01:43.19 | JeffM | even tho I will be graduating from college this year :) |
| 01:43.25 | JeffM | what was your first computer? |
| 01:43.36 | JeffM | how many bits did it have? |
| 01:44.19 | JeffM | how many megabytes was your first hard drive? |
| 01:44.48 | alpha1-2 | I worked with computers before XTs apeared, that is all I will say ;) |
| 01:45.06 | JeffM | as did I |
| 01:45.37 | JeffM | I worked with comptuers before those fancy intel processors |
| 01:45.49 | alpha1-2 | woked = used |
| 01:45.52 | JeffM | new fangled machines with 16 bits! |
| 01:45.53 | alpha1-2 | worked* |
| 01:46.03 | JeffM | who needs 16 whole bits! |
| 01:46.12 | JeffM | cassete tape for the win |
| 01:47.21 | alpha1-2 | and maybe Argetina was delayed a little |
| 01:47.41 | alpha1-2 | yes, cassettes :) |
| 01:47.44 | JeffM | I remember buying my Pentium II 266 with a deidcated graphics card just to run bzflag ;) |
| 01:47.55 | JeffM | it was super cool |
| 01:48.11 | JeffM | way better then the voodoo card my roomate had |
| 01:48.17 | JeffM | no bzflag on voodoo :( |
| 01:49.10 | alpha1-2 | your room..antic mate? :P (just playing with words) |
| 01:49.18 | JeffM | I totaly got it work on windows with permida 2 card :) |
| 01:49.25 | JeffM | umm no |
| 01:49.57 | alpha1-2 | I find English words often funny to play with, excuse me |
| 01:50.05 | JeffM | I was the best man in his wedding |
| 01:51.51 | alpha1-2 | or sorry* |
| 01:56.07 | alpha1-2 | I am glad we could discuss w/o getting upset, guys. It must be because it is friday, right? :)) |
| 01:56.33 | JeffM | why would it be upsettings |
| 01:56.48 | alpha1-2 | or maybe because I am getting better to und./talk/wait? |
| 01:58.11 | khonkhortisan | I remember my 5¼-inch floppy disk drive |
| 01:58.25 | alpha1-2 | well, I felt that way many times... still another culture also... but I think cultured can add to a better understanding |
| 01:58.26 | JeffM | 8 inch :) |
| 01:58.35 | alpha1-2 | cultures* |
| 02:04.26 | alpha1-2 | *it felt that you both were, some often* |
| 02:06.36 | blast007 | I remember when my friend turned down the contrast on my screen and I realized I had TWO shades of green! |
| 02:08.39 | alpha1-2 | what does that mean? monitor problem? |
| 02:08.46 | alpha1-2 | screen* |
| 02:09.14 | blast007 | no, the contrast knob had been maxed out, so there was no contrast between the two shares |
| 02:09.17 | blast007 | shades* |
| 02:09.46 | khonkhortisan | how many bits is that? less than 8? |
| 02:10.52 | alpha1-2 | you are talking of an only-green screen? |
| 02:11.04 | blast007 | alpha1-2: yes, monochrome |
| 02:11.21 | khonkhortisan | I imagine the colors on colored penciles, with the green colored pencil and the ugly yellow-green colored pencil. |
| 02:12.22 | blast007 | trying to see if that system will still boot |
| 02:13.42 | alpha1-2 | excue me, blast007, but why are you talking of 2 shades? isn't there just 1? 1 ray of electrons for 1 color? |
| 02:13.56 | blast007 | no, two shades of green |
| 02:14.25 | khonkhortisan | more green electrons and fewer green electrons |
| 02:14.27 | alpha1-2 | oh 2 levels of green? |
| 02:14.37 | alpha1-2 | like bold and normal? |
| 02:15.14 | blast007 | I'm not sure if it used tricks to make it that way, like relying on the ghosting of the screen |
| 02:15.37 | alpha1-2 | okay |
| 02:15.50 | alpha1-2 | all text, no graphics right? |
| 02:16.00 | blast007 | it had a graphics mode too |
| 02:16.10 | alpha1-2 | ah okay, yes, I think so |
| 02:16.26 | alpha1-2 | remember Test Drive or Prince of Persia? :) |
| 02:16.31 | blast007 | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monochrome_Graphics_Adapter |
| 02:17.03 | alpha1-2 | those were the first graphics or good graphics game I saw into PCs I think |
| 02:17.03 | blast007 | I almost think I remember returning a Test Drive game because it was so terrible, but that was on my Windows 95 system and some sort of 3D |
| 02:17.28 | blast007 | ever play Descent or Descent II? |
| 02:17.38 | alpha1-2 | I did |
| 02:17.45 | alpha1-2 | think II |
| 02:17.49 | alpha1-2 | a demo |
| 02:17.52 | khonkhortisan | I loved descent |
| 02:18.14 | alpha1-2 | or 3? :P don't rem. well |
| 02:18.17 | khonkhortisan | For the first one I only had the demo. Didn't get past the invisible guy |
| 02:18.27 | khonkhortisan | descent three just isn't the same |
| 02:19.20 | khonkhortisan | So if I posted a wireframe image of a level, you'd know which one it was :P |
| 02:19.26 | alpha1-2 | oh the Hercules Graphics Card, yes |
| 02:21.53 | alpha1-2 | "monochrome monitors have only one color of phosphor (mono means "one", and chrome means "color"). All text and graphics are displayed in that color. Some monitors have the ability to vary the brightness of individual pixels, thereby creating the illusion of depth and color, exactly like a black-and-white television." |
| 02:21.58 | alpha1-2 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monochrome_screen |
| 02:23.39 | alpha1-2 | I didn't find "shade" on your page nor in this one |
| 02:26.29 | alpha1-2 | Some green screen displays were furnished with a particularly full/intense phosphor coating, making the characters very clear and sharply defined (thus easy to read), but generating a somewhat disturbing afterglow-effect (sometimes called a "ghost image") when the text scrolled down the screen or when a screenful of information was quickly replaced with another as in word processing page up/down operations. |
| 02:27.23 | khonkhortisan | I'm sure there's a way to recreate that effect on an lcd screen |
| 02:27.31 | alpha1-2 | maybe it was just a phosphored effect cause of the intense use |
| 02:27.42 | alpha1-2 | caused by* |
| 02:28.56 | alpha1-2 | oh they say that Martix were usingthe ghost effect to nowadays :) |
| 02:29.12 | alpha1-2 | *oh they say that Matrix were using the ghost effect too nowadays :)* |
| 02:29.34 | alpha1-2 | Monochrome monitors are particularly susceptible to screen burn (hence the advent, and name, of the screensaver), because the phosphors used are very high intensity. |
| 02:31.22 | alpha1-2 | was* |
| 02:47.17 | Flash | Wow ... solving world hunger and open source software ... I should never have gone to work |
| 02:47.25 | alpha1-2 | khonkhortisan: you have that screensaver into Opensuse :) |
| 02:47.25 | Flash | was paid to write software today |
| 02:48.12 | alpha1-2 | oh Flash, I/we weren't talking of you :P |
| 02:49.22 | Flash | speaking philosophically, I do think open source has a lot of negative influence on the software industry |
| 02:49.44 | Flash | People flock to the latest new darling software package/tool/product |
| 02:50.06 | Flash | then the people who were excited about writing it get bored or get hungry and go elsewhere |
| 02:50.17 | Flash | and the community is left with an unsupported product |
| 02:50.25 | Flash | until they chase after the next buzzword |
| 02:50.57 | Flash | Ever hear of the term TRL (Technology Readiness Level)? |
| 02:51.17 | Flash | Most open source projects don't get very far. |
| 02:51.34 | Flash | but we adopt them/depend upon them with all their immaturity |
| 02:52.17 | Flash | ok, I'll get another glass of wine now and blow up some tanks and settle down. |
| 02:53.00 | alpha1-2 | don't go very far?? excuse me but I think exactly the opposite. For example KDE that I am using right now. It is very good ad evry day it walk ahead |
| 02:53.19 | alpha1-2 | *and every day it walks ahead* |
| 02:53.24 | khonkhortisan | the important word (I forgot the word to use in place of important) is most. |
| 02:54.02 | Flash | My opinion of Linux (it's over 20 years old, but hasn't changed much) is that it is an operating system for people who want to play with operating systems |
| 02:54.04 | alpha1-2 | releveant? |
| 02:54.08 | alpha1-2 | relevant* |
| 02:54.16 | alpha1-2 | to khonkhortisan |
| 02:54.53 | Flash | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_readiness_level |
| 02:55.26 | Flash | Most open source doesn't get much farther than TRL 5 or 6 |
| 02:55.35 | Flash | Commercial products are 8 or 9 |
| 02:56.06 | alpha1-2 | I use linux (that was taught at University) fo long time now and each day is more useful! what are you talking about? (I will read it, though, not sre if now) |
| 02:57.11 | Flash | I've been developing on Solaris for close to 20 years now and its head and shoulders above Linux |
| 02:58.10 | alpha1-2 | just consider the millions of peple that are developing linux and their applications. Can you compare hem with any kind of propietary soft group? |
| 02:58.22 | khonkhortisan | yes? |
| 02:59.08 | alpha1-2 | tell me the biggest amount of developers of an operating system and compare it with linux one |
| 02:59.17 | alpha1-2 | no comparation |
| 03:00.55 | alpha1-2 | as I said, and it's my opinion, just wanting to share it, not to impose it, I am not totally against prp. soft. but I like Free/libre one much |
| 03:01.38 | alpha1-2 | this is all. Now I will have a break and I will be AFK for a while. It was a good talk though :) |
| 03:04.56 | blast007 | best and most used are not the same thing |
| 03:05.37 | khonkhortisan | There are many assumptions used when writing software. If any of them turn out to be false, the program malfunctions. Some examples are that text will always fit in 8 bits (unicode), that there will only be one mouse pointer (multi-pointer Xorg), that people don't have a field of vision greater than 180 degrees (many virtual cameras have this limit), that key code 22 is backspace (affected by keyboard layout) and so on. |
| 03:18.34 | Flash | The number of people developing and the quality of development are not correlated. |
| 03:19.17 | Flash | The more people you have, the more opinions on how things "ought to be" and a much higher lack of consistency |
| 03:20.05 | Flash | This week I had to re-write some Java (I don't do Java) because the author didn't know what he was doing so he copied code from someone else who didn't know what he was doing. |
| 03:20.31 | Flash | The skill level of the average developer is quite low, I'm afraid. |
| 03:38.36 | khonkhortisan | I believe that |
| 04:30.59 | *** join/#bzflag Pimpinella (~frank@gondolin.pimpi.org) |
| 04:48.34 | alpha1-2 | Free/Libre soft. development is one way to do things. There are others, and they can live all together. What is good about Free one is that with the bigger amount of people you get, the bigger possiblities of making a good soft, cause of the synergy. And the different opinion is not a big issue cause there are always maintainers and some organization to filter them. Imagine a "thunder of ideas" and then someone (the maintainer/leader |
| 04:48.36 | alpha1-2 | of an area) chooses the better ones. There are also a lot of testers, feedbacks, bug reports, etc. If there are bugs nowadays, it will be fixed surely in next releases, cause *someone* will note it anytime. It is just another way to do the job. And I think it has a good level of quality. See for example LibreOffice, OpenSUSE, XFree/Xorg, kernel, Apache, MySQL/PostgreSQL/others, etc. They are used into goverment, enterprises, education, |
| 04:48.37 | alpha1-2 | games, Universities, etc. Apart, the security of the information is very important too. Having access to the source code makes this possible. |
| 04:52.19 | alpha1-2 | Another good example is BZFlag OFC! |
| 04:52.57 | alpha1-2 | Who doesn't like it... go out! hehe |
| 04:57.03 | alpha1-2 | (or who doesn't like something... write it better!) |
| 05:14.14 | Flash | alpha1-2: LibreOffice is a good example ... and I'll admit I haven't tried it lately, but it is just not up to the level of quality or usability of Microsoft Office or Apple iWork |
| 05:17.50 | Flash | This is not to say that I'm opposed to FOSS. |
| 05:18.06 | Flash | But the trend is detrimental to software as a whole. |
| 05:18.34 | khonkhortisan | The spellchecker it uses, hunspell (which firefox also uses) can use spellchecking dictionaries from two languages at the same time, but only if you use the standalone. That code isn't in the library. |
| 05:19.15 | Flash | Why pay for a quality, professionally maintained product when I can get something nearly the same for free? Will it be around tomorrow? Who knows? |
| 05:20.07 | Flash | Which is "better"? MySQL or Oracle 11g? |
| 05:22.13 | khonkhortisan | there's a bot on one of these channels that says postgres is better because mysql is an internet-connected spreadsheet |
| 05:26.42 | alpha1-2 | I think I und. better you view... then you are telling that if FLOSS stays long time it will be "destroy" let's say all the other software and nobody will get paid for developing? |
| 05:26.59 | Flash | Not that simple, but it is a factor |
| 05:27.25 | Flash | There is a disruptive nature to chasing the latest trends that FOSS encourages |
| 05:28.15 | Flash | But there is a very real pressure to not use a commercial product, even if it satisfies requirements that cannot otherwise be met, because there is a FOSS "alternative" |
| 05:28.47 | Flash | khonkhortisan: postgres is "better" but less well known, supported, etc. |
| 05:29.15 | alpha1-2 | well, first I don't think the prpietary system will dissapear totally, just both systems could survive. Second, maybe it is just another way to do the job and propietary will go toward Free, like selling services instead of licenses |
| 05:30.37 | Flash | Let me try to give you a concrete example. ACE vs. Boost vs. ToolKit++ |
| 05:30.50 | Flash | are you familiar with any of those? |
| 05:31.02 | alpha1-2 | one thing people complain is "why you get paid a lot of times for something you wrote just one time?" |
| 05:31.42 | khonkhortisan | hah, royalties are the way to be rich |
| 05:31.53 | alpha1-2 | "and why that paid is not finally owned by yourself cause it is just licensed?" |
| 05:33.01 | Flash | One thing people complain is, "why do I have to pay for ...." (fill in the blank) ... as if you have a right to the fruits of someone else's labor :) |
| 05:33.21 | Flash | music, video/movies, software, research, books, etc. |
| 05:33.30 | alpha1-2 | I know mostl C/C++, I know that Boost is popular though, the other 2... ToolKit++ is Borland? |
| 05:35.09 | Flash | ACE predates Boost; it came out of a research project by Doug Schmidt at wustl.edu. ToolKit++ is a commercial product originally sold by ObjectSpace but currently owned by Recusion SW. I should also have added Rogue Wave |
| 05:36.08 | Flash | But let's go with Boost. A lot of what drove Boost was limitations of the ANSI C++ implementation. With the updates to C++11, what is the future of Boost? |
| 05:36.39 | alpha1-2 | wait, and GNU compilers? |
| 05:36.54 | Flash | red herring |
| 05:37.19 | alpha1-2 | I don't use Boost, apart it has its own license |
| 05:37.36 | alpha1-2 | FSF approved though not Copyleft |
| 05:37.47 | Flash | and? |
| 05:38.16 | Flash | is there "one approved license"? (note most companies are not in favor of the GPL) |
| 05:38.20 | alpha1-2 | and have patience, I am not native speaker |
| 05:38.30 | alpha1-2 | :) |
| 05:39.30 | Flash | I don't use Boost either, but not for any license issues. I don't use Boost because you should either embrace Boost fully and use all the libraries they provide, or not at all. |
| 05:39.38 | alpha1-2 | woh it s GPL compatible, okay, let's continue :) |
| 05:39.40 | alpha1-2 | oh* |
| 05:40.09 | Flash | For historical reasons (that predate the ANSI C++ standard) I use the ToolKit++ library. But we pay (modestly) for that. |
| 05:40.55 | Flash | What is the cost of converting from ToolKit++ (or RW Tools++) to a FOSS "alternative" (recognizing that things are never "drop in" replacements)? |
| 05:41.44 | Flash | And suppose we pay that cost, and Boost decides it's not worth their time to continue to support their libraries? Or the next great thing comes along? |
| 05:42.41 | alpha1-2 | why don't migrate to GNU compilers? |
| 05:42.42 | Flash | The biggest difference between commercial and FOSS is that if I have a problem I can point to the money I've paid and demand satisfaction. With FOSS, I hope someone is still devleoping |
| 05:42.49 | Flash | Kind of like BZFlag |
| 05:43.04 | Flash | alpha1-2: what do compilers have to do with it? |
| 05:43.20 | alpha1-2 | libraries |
| 05:43.40 | alpha1-2 | excuse me I am some tired already, but it's interesting |
| 05:43.43 | alpha1-2 | or sorry* |
| 05:43.54 | Flash | So are you suggesting that the GNU compiler includes a library that makes generating HTML in C++ easier? |
| 05:44.16 | alpha1-2 | let me check Boost... |
| 05:44.44 | alpha1-2 | Boost is a set of libraries for the C++ programming language that provide support for tasks and structures such as linear algebra, pseudorandom number generation, multithreading, image processing, regular expressions, and unit testing. It contains over eighty individual libraries. |
| 05:44.54 | alpha1-2 | what are th diff. with GNU versions? |
| 05:45.22 | alpha1-2 | I am get used to GNU versions, all linux have them |
| 05:45.28 | Flash | GNU implements the C++ standard (more or less) which does not cover all of what Boost provides |
| 05:45.32 | alpha1-2 | linux distros |
| 05:45.41 | alpha1-2 | am I missing something? |
| 05:45.48 | Flash | Yes. |
| 05:46.21 | alpha1-2 | ANSI C++ 11 you mean specifically? |
| 05:47.18 | Flash | There are two main things. The first is, by assuming (requiring?) GNU compiler, you are specifying an implementation, to the exclusion of any other, such as Sun Studio Pro or Greenhills or MS Visual C++ |
| 05:48.48 | Flash | The second is that the compiler provides what the standard specifies, but there is room "at the edges" for additional library (arbitrary precision, matrix operations, HTML, threads, other abstractions) support that things like ACE, Boost, RW, and ToolKit++ have been providing for years. |
| 05:48.50 | alpha1-2 | yes, the implementation , the software itself |
| 05:49.57 | alpha1-2 | and GNU is delayed still in some of them, right? |
| 05:50.31 | Flash | So suppose the entire world spends the money to abandon all other compilers and only use GNU g++. And what happens if g++ ceases to be maintained (because who is paying for this?) on, say, iOS 8 or Android 3 or Windows 12 or ...? |
| 05:50.52 | Flash | There is no such thing as a free lunch. |
| 05:51.01 | Flash | SOMEBODY gets paid for everything. |
| 05:51.09 | Flash | or they stop doing it. |
| 05:51.45 | alpha1-2 | okay, yes, they get donations as far Iknow |
| 05:51.57 | alpha1-2 | there are sponsors too (enterprises) |
| 05:52.13 | alpha1-2 | and if all the world is waiting for the code... |
| 05:52.28 | *** join/#bzflag Admirarch (~Athelthra@mrush.mth.abdn.ac.uk) |
| 05:52.32 | alpha1-2 | I am sure there will be people interested in support these people :) |
| 05:52.38 | Flash | and they will continue to wait ... |
| 05:53.29 | alpha1-2 | no, they will donate a lot o money (al th world) to FSF and then Stallmann will become Bill Gates :D |
| 05:53.56 | Flash | "they" ... losing proposition. How much have YOU donated? |
| 05:54.04 | alpha1-2 | you are putting it in the extreme, and I am not joking neither :), can you see it? |
| 05:54.43 | alpha1-2 | well, I am just a end user and a tiny one |
| 05:54.49 | Flash | Ok, so let's move away from the mainstream and towards the edges. |
| 05:55.15 | Flash | HADOOP ... MapReduce ... Google Protocol Buffers ... |
| 05:55.20 | alpha1-2 | but you are talking of eneterprises than can contact specific developers to make specific code, this is what I have heard |
| 05:55.49 | Flash | they all became the next "new thing" to replace what had been done before. Yet even the sponsoring organizations are moving away from them |
| 05:56.09 | alpha1-2 | in one congress I met an LibreOffice developer that had a personal sponsor (enterprise) that suppported his "atches" |
| 05:56.23 | alpha1-2 | patches* |
| 05:57.45 | alpha1-2 | and Istill see many enterprises supporting FLOSS in many swebites |
| 05:57.54 | Flash | That's great for him. But it's still a sub-standard product. |
| 05:57.57 | alpha1-2 | websites* |
| 05:58.22 | alpha1-2 | HP, Opensuse, IBM, I don't remember all, and there are other not too famous |
| 05:58.27 | alpha1-2 | Novell* |
| 05:58.47 | alpha1-2 | Sun was before was bought |
| 05:58.54 | alpha1-2 | Nokia |
| 05:58.59 | alpha1-2 | netc |
| 05:59.03 | alpha1-2 | etc* |
| 05:59.15 | DTRemenak | Flash: commercial products die all the time...as much or more than open source products, just less visibly. With open source products, at least you can continue to scratch your own itch after the original developer is dead and gone. |
| 05:59.55 | Flash | Technically, that's true. But no one has the (commercial) resources to take over a dead FOSS product. |
| 06:00.09 | DTRemenak | what does "take over" mean? |
| 06:00.21 | DTRemenak | every project is a different size |
| 06:00.39 | alpha1-2 | (well not an end user like just an user, I am a technician/developer/student) |
| 06:00.49 | Flash | it means, spend the learning curve to know the product and find/fix bugs. |
| 06:00.52 | DTRemenak | I've adopted abandoned projects before |
| 06:01.01 | DTRemenak | and I wasn't even being paid for it |
| 06:01.26 | DTRemenak | and lots of organizations can spare a developer to continue working on something they're actively using |
| 06:01.59 | Flash | I work for a pretty big company. And we don't do that sort of thing. The bean counters don't approve. |
| 06:02.20 | DTRemenak | the barrier to entry is REALLY low. you're using it already, so it was "good enough." you have a problem, you fix the problem. it remains "good enough." |
| 06:02.35 | alpha1-2 | it is the same idea that you are tring to deffend, Flash, *just* that in *other way*. It is not working for free, it is just *freedom* about what yu can do with the code. This is all. Another paradigm, another way to the the same . :) |
| 06:02.57 | alpha1-2 | to do* |
| 06:02.58 | DTRemenak | whereas with a commercial product, you have to scramble to find someone with rights to the code, or you're just SOL and have to launch a huge migration project |
| 06:03.16 | DTRemenak | that's a much more expensive proposition |
| 06:03.36 | Flash | with a commercial product, you have more leverage. You can't force the FOSS community to care about YOUR problem. |
| 06:03.55 | Flash | And the cost of becoming a (fill in the blank) expert is not insignificant. |
| 06:04.05 | DTRemenak | you can't really force a company to care either. especially when they're out of business. |
| 06:04.14 | DTRemenak | or Oracle, because they're jackasses |
| 06:04.25 | Flash | I'm not anti-FOSS in total. But I see it as a negative influence for software development in the large. |
| 06:04.36 | Flash | And no argument about Oracle :) |
| 06:05.08 | Flash | but I'll take Solaris over Linux any day |
| 06:05.50 | DTRemenak | I'll take FreeBSD over both any day ;) to each their own. |
| 06:06.00 | Flash | as you wish |
| 06:06.18 | alpha1-2 | consider that they both are similar old, about 25 years if you consider MIcrosoft and the Free Soft. Foundation. Different ways, though. And, in the beggining, the software was Free, remember. |
| 06:06.38 | Flash | no, in the beginning, software was paid for. |
| 06:06.55 | DTRemenak | software is still paid for |
| 06:07.01 | DTRemenak | even free software is paid for |
| 06:07.34 | Flash | that's not the prevailing wisdom. All point-haired-bosses think FOSS is FREE |
| 06:07.49 | DTRemenak | that is the destructive bit |
| 06:08.09 | alpha1-2 | that is not what Stallman says. After some time, the software started to be paid. |
| 06:08.45 | alpha1-2 | Free/Libre != free of charge |
| 06:09.20 | alpha1-2 | it is all about *freedom*, remember |
| 06:09.40 | Flash | freedom is a fantasy, when it comes to code. |
| 06:10.05 | Flash | Stallman is a control freak. |
| 06:10.13 | DTRemenak | get rid of the "FOSS means I don't have to pay to maintain it" and FOSS is a LOT more appealing. You can pay 10000/yr in maintenance fees and NOT have rights to use the code independent of its authors, or you can pay the same and HAVE those rights. which do you choose? |
| 06:10.23 | Flash | He refuses to integrate XEmacs because Emacs must be HIS way |
| 06:10.51 | alpha1-2 | I don't support him totally, neither. I like his licenses, though, and his hardwork. NAd the results. |
| 06:10.53 | Flash | DTRemenak: I wish our bean counters could think, but they cant |
| 06:11.02 | DTRemenak | then the problem is the bean counters ;) |
| 06:11.03 | alpha1-2 | hardworking* |
| 06:11.10 | alpha1-2 | And the results: |
| 06:11.12 | alpha1-2 | * |
| 06:11.40 | DTRemenak | and it's a common problem...there exist companies which sell support packages for FOSS for exactly that reason. they can make a ton of money on it. |
| 06:13.50 | khonkhortisan | I'm not old enough for this conversation. I'm at the "What can I get my computer to do without it asking for a credit card?" stage. |
| 06:14.00 | alpha1-2 | I have heard too that lately more enterprises are choosing to use linux cause of all his advantages and giving capacitation about it to employers |
| 06:14.31 | alpha1-2 | employees |
| 06:14.33 | alpha1-2 | * |
| 06:14.56 | Flash | capacitation? |
| 06:15.26 | alpha1-2 | yes, about the *new* system |
| 06:15.31 | khonkhortisan | no comprendo |
| 06:15.32 | alpha1-2 | or coding it |
| 06:15.32 | DTRemenak | y'know, the penultimate step in the maturation of mammalian spermatozoa |
| 06:15.45 | alpha1-2 | teaching* |
| 06:15.50 | Flash | punches DTRemenak |
| 06:15.57 | DTRemenak | grins |
| 06:16.29 | alpha1-2 | oh "capacitation" is a legal word, weird :P |
| 06:16.49 | alpha1-2 | training* |
| 06:16.53 | khonkhortisan | oh wow you actually pulled that as a quote |
| 06:16.59 | DTRemenak | heh |
| 06:17.19 | Flash | holds DTRemenak in just a higher bit of esteem |
| 06:17.37 | Flash | Capacitation involves the destabilisation of the acrosomal sperm head membrane allowing greater binding between sperm and oocyte. |
| 06:17.52 | alpha1-2 | uh guys :P |
| 06:18.12 | khonkhortisan | I was thinking of decapitation |
| 06:18.13 | alpha1-2 | any girl present? (apart of me? hehe) |
| 06:18.30 | DTRemenak | hey, you're the one who brought up capacitation :) |
| 06:18.33 | khonkhortisan | blames alpha for ^ |
| 06:18.38 | DTRemenak | http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/capacitation |
| 06:18.58 | Flash | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitation |
| 06:19.13 | khonkhortisan | you zygote |
| 06:19.29 | Flash | is no zygote |
| 06:19.43 | alpha1-2 | I use always this dct, the Collins part, it says "Legal", but I didn't see it, and the Sanish word for training is "capacitación" ;) |
| 06:19.44 | alpha1-2 | http://www.wordreference.com/es/en/translation.asp?spen=capacitacion |
| 06:19.55 | khonkhortisan | I'm not sure whether I should agree with you Flash - I'm not sure whether someone should take it as an insult or not |
| 06:20.13 | DTRemenak | alpha1-2: yeah, it's a false cognate |
| 06:20.23 | alpha1-2 | oh it was rght, DTRemenak haha |
| 06:20.33 | khonkhortisan | cognate of what? |
| 06:20.51 | alpha1-2 | false cognate, better I know now ':P |
| 06:21.12 | Flash | entrenamiento |
| 06:22.11 | alpha1-2 | training |
| 06:23.17 | alpha1-2 | if I say "legal" is a cognate for example, the same as in Spanish, khonkhortisan |
| 06:24.05 | alpha1-2 | but in this case "capacitación" is not a cognate cause "capacitation" has another meaning |
| 06:24.27 | khonkhortisan | ah |
| 06:24.27 | Flash | alpha1-2: here is MY reality. I develop/maintain in excess of 1 million lines of code. This does not include the COTS/FOSS products that we use. I do not have the resources to become an expert/fix bugs in any of these products. If the vendor goes away, we need to replace the capability and cannot afford to add THEIR code to our code base. |
| 06:24.39 | alpha1-2 | "ventilator" and "ventilador" are cognates |
| 06:24.42 | khonkhortisan | ción/tion |
| 06:25.05 | Flash | comprendo/comprehend are cognates :) |
| 06:25.13 | DTRemenak | but a ventilador is usually just called a fan ;) |
| 06:25.24 | alpha1-2 | or maybe not hte best example |
| 06:26.01 | alpha1-2 | see here http://www.linguasorb.com/learnspanish/spanish-cognates |
| 06:26.38 | khonkhortisan | ¿Podría hablo a alpha sin alguien comprender? |
| 06:27.02 | DTRemenak | it's a fast way to gain access to a LOT of vocabulary. and coming from a romance L1 to english as L2, you'll normally just sound smart ;) but you've gotta watch out for the landmines... |
| 06:27.48 | khonkhortisan | looks both ways |
| 06:27.50 | DTRemenak | khonkhortisan: no, no podrÃas. también hablo español. |
| 06:27.55 | khonkhortisan | Tengo uno ano. |
| 06:27.57 | Flash | alpha1-2: cool link |
| 06:27.58 | khonkhortisan | runs away! |
| 06:28.30 | DTRemenak | khonkhortisan: pues, buen intento ;) |
| 06:28.35 | Flash | covers DTRemenak's head with a burlap bag and beats him with a wet noodle |
| 06:28.36 | alpha1-2 | (and I am not a girl/woman just in case! hehe) |
| 06:29.24 | khonkhortisan | you're not a girl/woman but you're a woman/girl |
| 06:29.31 | khonkhortisan | I'm just kidding |
| 06:30.02 | khonkhortisan | (tengo veinte años) |
| 06:30.09 | khonkhortisan | to correct my previous sentence |
| 06:30.12 | DTRemenak | extracts himself from the burlap bag |
| 06:30.55 | khonkhortisan | I don't like dealing with licensing |
| 06:31.08 | DTRemenak | yet it is necessary |
| 06:31.32 | alpha1-2 | then Flash, you are supposing the FLOSS is more unstable than propietary? they can go away more often? |
| 06:31.45 | Flash | yes. I think this is fact |
| 06:32.10 | khonkhortisan | If I make something original, I have to at least use a license that says someone else can do either nothing or everything to make standard copyright not apply |
| 06:33.12 | Flash | You HAVE to do nothing. You are free to release it to the public domain. |
| 06:33.14 | DTRemenak | FLOSS itself doesn't go away. sometimes individual developers do. I don't think that's any more common than commercial software, though...I've had to transition to alternate libraries from commercial vendors going bust more frequently than I've had to maintain an abandoned open-source one. |
| 06:33.37 | Flash | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:33.44 | khonkhortisan | but releasing it to public domain is slapping a license on it. |
| 06:34.29 | DTRemenak | and honestly, I WISH the commercial products that we use by companies that've been dead for 20 years were open source. because then I could FIX their crappy software, or ask someone else to do the same. |
| 06:34.50 | khonkhortisan | You'd get license to it if I couldn't prove I was the author, or waited too long to file, or just didn't care |
| 06:34.58 | alpha1-2 | but I could assert that if your enterprise is big and serious you surely had not choose those external capabilities/systems/libraries w/o wisdom, then it must be much less possiblity to drop/lose them |
| 06:35.12 | alpha1-2 | chosen* |
| 06:35.31 | Flash | alpha1-2: I am not following your logic |
| 06:36.09 | khonkhortisan | A large company would wisely choose between proprietary and open-source libraries that wouldn't likely implode? |
| 06:36.57 | DTRemenak | as it is, we end up developing in-house replacements, that cost FAR more than they ought to, just to get something kinda-sorta compatible. then we have to maintain THEM ourselves, too...it's always easier to start with the original code. |
| 06:37.01 | alpha1-2 | and your enterprise won't be the only one that use them, then if some of them drops/falls, a group of enterprises will find a solution |
| 06:37.14 | Flash | Y, para que conste, yo no hablo español (bueno) pero puedo usar Google Translate |
| 06:37.46 | Flash | khonkhortisan: wisely? do you WORK for a company? ANY company? |
| 06:38.00 | khonkhortisan | I was just trying to reiterate the logic |
| 06:38.04 | Flash | nods at DTRemenak |
| 06:38.29 | khonkhortisan | translate gets so many things wrong (as you'll hear) but if two people want to communicate, they'll find a way |
| 06:38.29 | Flash | because all software developers want to re-invent the wheel (better, this time, but don't make me test for bugs) |
| 06:38.59 | DTRemenak | Flash: it's more-or-less obvious when you use google translate, because machine translators make mistakes like "hablo bueno" instead of "hablo bien" ;) |
| 06:39.08 | alpha1-2 | but one good thing about a good developing is modularization |
| 06:39.20 | khonkhortisan | good/well isn't that bad of a mistake |
| 06:39.23 | Flash | alpha1-2: It's a nice idea. I'm not sure that in practice it is good for the industry. |
| 06:39.36 | alpha1-2 | then you could replace any part of yur code more easily |
| 06:39.56 | alpha1-2 | or some parts |
| 06:39.56 | khonkhortisan | I caveman. I mouth-sound gweat! |
| 06:40.32 | Flash | The ability to develop (truly) modular code is not widespread |
| 06:40.57 | DTRemenak | khonkhortisan: I can't remember any native Spanish speaker I've spoken to making that mistake. Native English speakers, absolutely. But the adverb/adjective difference in Spanish is reinforced by adjective agreement, which English doesn't have. |
| 06:41.18 | alpha1-2 | modularization and reusability, as in using external libraries like you mentioned |
| 06:41.23 | khonkhortisan | "modular code" is music to my ears |
| 06:41.38 | Flash | mein Deutsch ist nicht ser gut |
| 06:41.58 | khonkhortisan | is enjoying this multicultural experience ⺠|
| 06:42.05 | Flash | alpha1-2: replacing ACE with Boost is NOT simplistic |
| 06:42.33 | Flash | the boundaries are rarely well defined |
| 06:42.45 | alpha1-2 | oh but that is an structural change, not some capabilities |
| 06:42.55 | Flash | how so? |
| 06:42.55 | khonkhortisan | Is there any platform middleware? Like you write for library X, and it runs windows/linux/etc I/O commands? |
| 06:43.02 | alpha1-2 | you are changing oh... let me see... |
| 06:43.36 | Flash | khonkhortisan: yes, that is the point of the ACE/Boost/RW Tools++/ToolKit++ example |
| 06:44.07 | DTRemenak | Flash: doch, es ist gut genug ;) |
| 06:44.41 | alpha1-2 | I think you are talking of more specific features like what one product offers than other doesn't or that it is not in the general usage by al of them, then in some way it is secondary |
| 06:44.52 | khonkhortisan | æä¸ç¥éææ®éè¯ |
| 06:45.21 | Flash | punches khonkhortisan |
| 06:45.24 | khonkhortisan | lol |
| 06:45.32 | Flash | can be quite violent |
| 06:45.45 | DTRemenak | khonkhortisan: I'm afraid you've exceeded my battery of "good enough" languages ;) I'd have to resort to machine translation there |
| 06:45.49 | khonkhortisan | your response doesn't tell me whether you translated that or not, but you're not missing anything |
| 06:46.11 | alpha1-2 | if boost offers 10 general + 2 specific features and ACE offers 10 general + other 2 specific ones, it is something secondary |
| 06:46.14 | khonkhortisan | I google translated "I know no mandarin" |
| 06:46.29 | Flash | I have friends who speak Mandarin, but I"m not one of them |
| 06:46.49 | khonkhortisan | it bugs me that I can't guess the pronunciation with it like I can with ascii-like languages |
| 06:47.12 | DTRemenak | it's a great language to learn, but I have neither the patience nor the desire |
| 06:48.05 | DTRemenak | alpha1-2: if you use one of those features, it's not secondary ;) |
| 06:48.12 | khonkhortisan | L1 english, L2 sign language (deteriorating without use) new L2 spanish (working on it) L3 mandarin (if I ever master spanish) |
| 06:48.31 | alpha1-2 | then you think there is not any other option to replace any external library you have already with other product out there? |
| 06:48.39 | Flash | alpha1-2: the intersection between features is rarely so clean. Each library comes with a bit of baggage. If you use the library, there's a high probability you carry the baggage. |
| 06:48.57 | DTRemenak | alpha1-2: you always have to adapt your code significantly. and that introduces bugs. |
| 06:49.06 | Flash | (y) |
| 06:49.23 | khonkhortisan | like with my previous example, using a spellchecker requires writing multi-dictionary code that should already be in the library |
| 06:49.28 | khonkhortisan | that's baggage |
| 06:49.38 | DTRemenak | that's why it's easier to deal with an abandoned OSS project...you can skip that whole mess, IF it's "good enough" overall. |
| 06:50.21 | DTRemenak | of course, if you're an early adopter (which it's admittedly hard not to be with open source), an abandoned project can be a much bigger deal |
| 06:50.27 | alpha1-2 | you are talking of bad implementations of the ANSI part? |
| 06:51.05 | alpha1-2 | (baggage) |
| 06:51.17 | alpha1-2 | or of extra things? |
| 06:51.32 | khonkhortisan | passes the question to flash |
| 06:52.09 | alpha1-2 | or of extra functionalities?* |
| 06:52.16 | DTRemenak | alpha1-2: if your library is implementing a standard, it's usually not such a big deal. the vast majority of libraries do NOT implement standards. |
| 06:52.31 | Flash | nods |
| 06:52.59 | khonkhortisan | one might use a function writefile, and the other one uses filewrite. If you have minor differences like this the whole way through, it's almost a rewrite |
| 06:53.14 | DTRemenak | instead, they're used for...things. for example, bzflag uses sdl, ftgl, curses, curl, and others |
| 06:53.40 | khonkhortisan | grumbles at sdl |
| 06:53.45 | DTRemenak | of those, only curses can be considered a standard (VERY loosely...and because bzflag is open-source, we've implemented several different "flavors" of curses) |
| 06:54.47 | DTRemenak | but if, say, curl ceased to exist, we'd need to rewrite a lot of code to use "something else" to meet our HTTP needs |
| 06:54.56 | khonkhortisan | pardon my chocolate french, excuse my strawberry swear |
| 06:55.35 | DTRemenak | SDL not so much, because our platform code is highly abstracted anyway (it was written long before SDL, so it had to be modular and multiplatform...SDL is really just a platform from our perspective) |
| 06:55.57 | khonkhortisan | and all code that is not dead is a moving target. BZFlag is behind on its OpenGL calls. |
| 06:56.24 | alpha1-2 | okay, that is what I meant, if curses falls, then not only BZ but a lot of systems will need a replacement, and in paralell a new development group will appear surely, cause it is a very important software |
| 06:56.32 | DTRemenak | which alpha1-2 appreciates, because he's (she's?) running an ancient intel card ;) |
| 06:57.15 | alpha1-2 | hehe :* :* |
| 06:59.26 | alpha1-2 | because a lot of people don't like propietary ones, then by necessity or by business, a new group will appear surely, apart of being a realy big (worldwide) amount of people involved |
| 06:59.55 | Flash | alpha1-2: but BZFlag will pay the price (along with ALL the other projects) of converting to the new library |
| 07:00.19 | DTRemenak | nods |
| 07:00.27 | Flash | and many projects will not be able to afford that price, or it will detract from important feature/bug fixes |
| 07:01.55 | alpha1-2 | nowadays there are several similar FLOSS systems for example of a Office Suite, imagine if LibreOffice falls, as it happened (OpenOffice), instantaneously another one (LibreOffice) will appear or ne of the other system will lead! |
| 07:02.05 | khonkhortisan | Maybe one day there will be a "library" library - where you connect to its api, and it connects to multiple interchangable libraries that then do the actual i/o, network, and other stuff libraries do. |
| 07:02.13 | alpha1-2 | one* |
| 07:02.18 | DTRemenak | khonkhortisan: that's more or less what SDL does ;) |
| 07:02.28 | Flash | OpenOffice didn't "fail" ... it simply "became" LibreOffice. |
| 07:02.33 | DTRemenak | it's got multiple backends, and attempts to choose the best one |
| 07:02.41 | khonkhortisan | some of their people disagreed over licensing and they split |
| 07:02.42 | DTRemenak | OpenOffice is still around...it's an Apache project now |
| 07:02.54 | DTRemenak | and it's more stable, more usable, and more compatible than LibreOffice... |
| 07:03.10 | khonkhortisan | ^ forking is bad |
| 07:03.13 | DTRemenak | they just had to get away from Oracle ;) |
| 07:03.16 | alpha1-2 | falls down*, sorry |
| 07:03.47 | Flash | wonders what DTRemenak REALLY thinks |
| 07:03.53 | DTRemenak | is channelling Oracle-hate today, and isn't sure why |
| 07:03.54 | khonkhortisan | There's a game, where multiple people forked it to make android/phone ports, and now those versions are called unsupported by the main group |
| 07:03.56 | alpha1-2 | yes, organization issues, then the developers went out |
| 07:04.33 | khonkhortisan | falls without down works too |
| 07:04.58 | khonkhortisan | you'd say a person falls down, or a country falls |
| 07:06.01 | alpha1-2 | linux distros come with LibreOffice latelly AFAIK |
| 07:06.05 | Flash | alpha1-2: I'm a grumpy old man. My development days are nearly done. If you make the FLOSS model work for the future, then good for you. But I see negative forces working to undermine software development as a whole. And I worry as we become all the more software dependent. |
| 07:06.08 | khonkhortisan | but libreoffice had the entirety of openoffice code at the time.e |
| 07:06.10 | khonkhortisan | *time. |
| 07:06.35 | khonkhortisan | It wasn't built from scratch to fill the need created by the loss of its predecessor. |
| 07:07.57 | khonkhortisan | obviously totalitarian software would be bad, whether it said that you must, or must not make money from it. |
| 07:08.41 | alpha1-2 | well, if you trust in God, you will have hope in one or another scenary anyways :) |
| 07:08.58 | alpha1-2 | evil forces are everywhere, true |
| 07:09.29 | alpha1-2 | but God/goodness forces are more powerful :) |
| 07:09.58 | khonkhortisan | tries to dicipher the meaning of scenary |
| 07:10.04 | khonkhortisan | *decipher |
| 07:10.06 | DTRemenak | "fall" vs "fall down" is weird...it does not map cleanly to caer/caerse. I've just spent several minutes trying to come up with a good explanation, and pretty much failed ;) |
| 07:10.13 | DTRemenak | khonkhortisan: try "scenario" |
| 07:10.20 | khonkhortisan | ah |
| 07:11.10 | alpha1-2 | yes that :P |
| 07:11.15 | khonkhortisan | the empire falls (its government dissolves), the person falls (off a cliff), the person falls down (trips and lands) |
| 07:12.24 | alpha1-2 | "one library falls down", as in "goes away", "stops working" or "stops being maintained" |
| 07:13.20 | khonkhortisan | http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fall |
| 07:13.25 | khonkhortisan | 9. To undergo conquest or capture, especially as the result of an armed attack: The city fell after a long siege. |
| 07:14.39 | khonkhortisan | and I can't find fall down as its own meaning |
| 07:14.41 | DTRemenak | which is not really the meaning alpha1-2 is going for, I don't think. maybe "falls away" is better. |
| 07:14.57 | alpha1-2 | BTW I don't like when Stallman said one time "the real freedom is when you don't have lord"... it is directly against Christianity. Jesus said "you will become reall free when you know the truth" and he is the Truth. This is why I don't support him totally, mostly |
| 07:15.07 | khonkhortisan | yeah, away |
| 07:16.01 | alpha1-2 | (and he is atheist) |
| 07:16.07 | DTRemenak | alpha1-2: every human being is wrong about something. no exceptions, really. |
| 07:16.19 | Flash | is never wrong |
| 07:16.21 | khonkhortisan | Assuming religion is false, you're freer if you don't have to follow the practices. Assuming religion is true, you're in a worse afterlife position if you don't follow the practices. |
| 07:16.56 | DTRemenak | that's why you need to examine the message, not the messenger. judge the content of an idea, not its originator |
| 07:17.11 | alpha1-2 | DTRemenak: yes, true, and that is why we follow God that is perfect :) |
| 07:17.25 | alpha1-2 | (or try to) |
| 07:17.29 | Flash | likes alpha1-2 |
| 07:17.41 | alpha1-2 | remember I am not a girl eh! hehehe |
| 07:17.54 | DTRemenak | khonkhortisan: some would maintain that religious tenets are plenty useful in this life, too |
| 07:18.07 | khonkhortisan | yes, they certainly make morality easier. |
| 07:18.17 | alpha1-2 | BTW, is there any girl on here? oh, kierra! |
| 07:18.26 | alpha1-2 | *riiing riiing* |
| 07:18.28 | Flash | una mujer o señorita |
| 07:19.00 | Flash | kierra is not really here |
| 07:19.05 | khonkhortisan | o niña o bebé de la muchacha |
| 07:19.32 | Flash | most like likely NOT a bebé |
| 07:19.33 | khonkhortisan | o anciana o vieja |
| 07:19.40 | Flash | hides |
| 07:19.56 | alpha1-2 | but thanks Flash, I think I like this talk with you guys and I start liking you too :) |
| 07:20.25 | Flash | alpha1-2: just for you: http://confessionsofarecoveringpharisee.blogspot.com/ |
| 07:20.49 | Flash | forbids anyone else to look |
| 07:20.58 | DTRemenak | too late! ;) |
| 07:21.01 | khonkhortisan | There's an argument that given two religions, one says that either of them get you to heaven, the other says that only it gets you to heaven, that by the truth/decision table, there's only one right answer. Unfortunately, with so many religions, it's not so simple. |
| 07:21.18 | khonkhortisan | But it does draw the conclusion that you're safer not just going with the one that says there's many paths. |
| 07:21.24 | Flash | Truth is one thing. Religion is another. |
| 07:22.01 | alpha1-2 | nice page Flash it seems |
| 07:22.03 | khonkhortisan | I mean assuming one was true and you went with the other, assuming the other was true and you went with the one, etc. |
| 07:22.05 | Flash | And anyone who thinks there is no religion is software knows nothing about software |
| 07:22.47 | DTRemenak | anyone who cites "The 5 Love Languages" and "Monty Python" in the same post is worth reading ;) |
| 07:22.59 | Flash | which post was that? |
| 07:23.07 | DTRemenak | the latest one |
| 07:23.14 | Flash | looks |
| 07:23.39 | alpha1-2 | and thanks* |
| 07:23.44 | khonkhortisan | first time I've heard of the former |
| 07:23.55 | khonkhortisan | "It's just a flesh wound!" |
| 07:23.58 | DTRemenak | khonkhortisan: read it. it's worthwhile. |
| 07:24.28 | alpha1-2 | I saw python too and surprised :) |
| 07:24.38 | khonkhortisan | (elderberries) |
| 07:24.42 | Flash | nit |
| 07:24.49 | khonkhortisan | you nit, it's Ni! |
| 07:24.50 | Flash | or Ni if you prefer |
| 07:24.57 | DTRemenak | heh |
| 07:25.06 | khonkhortisan | gambling term. Huh. |
| 07:25.30 | Flash | one of the projects I support has a NIT and a NOI |
| 07:25.33 | Flash | no joke |
| 07:26.08 | DTRemenak | we have be, bi, and bu... |
| 07:26.21 | khonkhortisan | bum, do I smell the blood of an englishman? |
| 07:29.11 | khonkhortisan | I found one of those web things where it slides the promo frames, but my browser is set in spanish so I can't read the text in time |
| 07:29.35 | DTRemenak | sounds like a good reading exercise! |
| 07:31.22 | khonkhortisan | yep |
| 07:35.00 | khonkhortisan | night y'all |
| 07:35.12 | DTRemenak | hasta luego |
| 07:35.35 | Flash | hasta la buena |
| 07:35.56 | alpha1-2 | night |
| 07:36.56 | alpha1-2 | well I will greet too, have'd a good talk, goodnight :) |
| 07:37.10 | alpha1-2 | has'd* |
| 07:37.19 | Flash | had |
| 07:37.29 | Flash | no contraction |
| 07:37.42 | alpha1-2 | it has been a good talk* |
| 07:37.43 | DTRemenak | g'night alpha1-2 |
| 07:37.48 | Flash | (y) |
| 07:39.16 | DTRemenak | Flash: fwiw, your blog has gained a subscriber. I wish I had the discipline to do that. |
| 07:41.28 | Flash | discipline is a facade. See how many posts there are. Not often |
| 07:41.55 | DTRemenak | sure, but for years in a row ;) |
| 08:11.50 | *** join/#bzflag contempt (contempt@unaffiliated/contempt) |
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| 14:52.11 | delusional | is anybody else reporting servers still running but droppied off the server list for no apparent reason? |
| 14:52.26 | delusional | possibly DR related? |
| 14:58.13 | BulletCatcher | I haven't seen any such reports. |
| 14:58.14 | BulletCatcher | One of my servers has not received the periodic checks from the list server for 90 minutes, but it is still on the list. |
| 15:14.51 | blast007 | did your server rules firewall off the list server again? |
| 15:15.12 | blast007 | connection rules* |
| 15:15.40 | delusional | if it did, allejo is fired |
| 15:16.38 | delusional | if that happened, we'd still be off the list |
| 15:17.54 | kierra | mofo is off strayers |
| 15:18.02 | BulletCatcher | That one server of mine has now been checked, so thing look normal for me. |
| 15:18.11 | kierra | ah, now on |
| 15:18.15 | kierra | weird |
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| 21:34.52 | Not-9d73 | [02bzflag-import-3] 07allejo pushed 031 commit to 03v2_4_x [+0/-0/±1] 13http://git.io/nTFC9A |
| 21:34.53 | Not-9d73 | [02bzflag-import-3] 07allejo 03fc5e834 - Ubuntu no longer comes with 'make' preinstalled, so add it to the list of things to install |
| 21:35.03 | allejo | I swear I can't possibly break the build because of that commit |
| 21:42.10 | JeffM | on Windows I use the linux readme as the source for our crypto signing keys, it won't build now :( |
| 21:43.06 | allejo | ... |
| 21:43.36 | JeffM | well I had to use something.. |
| 21:43.38 | JeffM | ;) |
| 21:44.20 | allejo | lol |
| 22:16.42 | blast007 | heh |
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| 23:54.31 | MonsieurApple | blast007: remember The Hub? http://cl.ly/image/2L3S212Q351e1q431H09 |
| 23:54.57 | blast007 | haha |