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| 03:06.29 | drizzo4shizzo | blast or anyone here feel like giving me the quick explanation of death physics for SR vs SR |
| 03:07.08 | drizzo4shizzo | as in who wins and who loses, and if both players die who dies first, or can one live, etc. (this is without gun) |
| 03:07.55 | mebigfatguy | you can both die, but only if the second one dies before receiving the death message from the other |
| 03:10.58 | JeffM_ | yeah it all depends on the lag |
| 03:11.02 | JeffM_ | each client does it's own death |
| 03:11.13 | JeffM_ | it's not arbitrated by the server or anything |
| 03:14.09 | drizzo4shizzo | cool thanks |
| 03:14.23 | drizzo4shizzo | It just leads to some bickering within gungame about "experts" who "know how SR works" |
| 03:14.28 | drizzo4shizzo | :-P |
| 03:15.21 | JeffM_ | all deaths are done on each client |
| 03:15.42 | JeffM_ | so it's always up to lag |
| 03:15.51 | drizzo4shizzo | I can detect the case where the other guy has SR too and have the plugin do the right thing (kill both tanks and declare both winners) |
| 03:16.33 | drizzo4shizzo | well, I think that is possible without much code or even a wait period |
| 03:16.42 | JeffM_ | probalby for most of the cases |
| 03:17.06 | JeffM_ | flag drops may not come in order |
| 03:17.07 | drizzo4shizzo | you killed me with SR and no gun to win??? ah but I too have SR therefore I win too yay profit |
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| 03:17.52 | drizzo4shizzo | thats ok |
| 03:18.05 | drizzo4shizzo | this happens in the tank-died-event |
| 03:19.01 | JeffM_ | I know, and some things may come out of order in that case |
| 03:19.08 | JeffM_ | UDP is not ensured to be in order |
| 03:19.25 | drizzo4shizzo | I think that the code will do the right thing regardless or packet order |
| 03:19.36 | drizzo4shizzo | but I've been wrong..before... |
| 03:19.58 | JeffM_ | the person who got hit could have dropped the SR flag just before they got hit |
| 03:20.05 | JeffM_ | yet you would not get the drop till after the death |
| 03:20.14 | drizzo4shizzo | I don't allow drops |
| 03:20.21 | JeffM_ | how do you prevent them? |
| 03:20.22 | drizzo4shizzo | well, I re-give :) |
| 03:20.25 | drizzo4shizzo | I don't really |
| 03:20.33 | drizzo4shizzo | that would be *super nice* |
| 03:20.38 | JeffM_ | there isn't a way |
| 03:20.43 | drizzo4shizzo | not currently no |
| 03:20.44 | JeffM_ | so yeah there could be small gaps |
| 03:20.55 | drizzo4shizzo | yeah I have to sort of account for gaps |
| 03:21.31 | drizzo4shizzo | for example ppl drop a flag like SW to squeeze off a regular shot (to hit someone further away) |
| 03:21.46 | JeffM_ | you can block that shot at the server level |
| 03:21.51 | drizzo4shizzo | well, if they kill someone I look at what flag they have and kick them back several "levels" :) |
| 03:21.55 | drizzo4shizzo | I also change the shot to PZ |
| 03:22.00 | JeffM_ | just don't send it |
| 03:22.01 | drizzo4shizzo | but the PZ trick doesn't always work |
| 03:22.20 | JeffM_ | only the shooter will see it and it would only kill him |
| 03:22.41 | drizzo4shizzo | I feel like I played with this a bit |
| 03:22.50 | JeffM_ | other people have done it |
| 03:22.51 | drizzo4shizzo | are you talking about within shotfired event |
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| 03:23.03 | JeffM_ | you have to block it in the server |
| 03:23.08 | drizzo4shizzo | or like in the server code which I'd rather not muck with |
| 03:23.22 | drizzo4shizzo | I'd like (as much as possible) the plugin to be self contained |
| 03:23.35 | JeffM_ | that will limit how much of the game you can mod |
| 03:23.39 | drizzo4shizzo | yes |
| 03:23.50 | JeffM_ | but it would not be too hard to make the event have a disallow |
| 03:23.55 | drizzo4shizzo | all we've changed at the mofo installation is to not kick for "player holding wrong flag" or something - a one liner |
| 03:24.15 | drizzo4shizzo | you mean add feature to plugin API? |
| 03:24.28 | JeffM_ | sure |
| 03:24.41 | JeffM_ | it would just be an extension to the event class |
| 03:25.06 | drizzo4shizzo | that would be sweet |
| 03:25.24 | drizzo4shizzo | but I have something that does work 99.9% of the time, it's just a little ugly :) |
| 03:26.06 | drizzo4shizzo | pls. don't feel the need to pollute the code for this thing that nobody else will probably use |
| 03:26.26 | JeffM_ | how is it a polution? |
| 03:26.42 | drizzo4shizzo | well, thats not really for me to say |
| 03:27.06 | drizzo4shizzo | It could become pollution if it makes the interface less clear |
| 03:27.38 | drizzo4shizzo | I guess what I'm saying is that there are lots of changes coming with the "flags are attributes" ting |
| 03:27.58 | drizzo4shizzo | no idea when that is but it would seem that you might be adding more work for later ;) |
| 03:28.15 | JeffM_ | oh dude, there isn't any real development |
| 03:28.22 | drizzo4shizzo | haha :) |
| 03:28.26 | JeffM_ | so I'd not count on those lofty goals |
| 03:28.43 | drizzo4shizzo | roger |
| 03:29.22 | drizzo4shizzo | I'm content to not be the reason for one-off changes in the server code. how's that :) |
| 03:29.36 | drizzo4shizzo | unless they are like bug fixes or actually make it cleaner / smaller / easier to read |
| 03:29.57 | drizzo4shizzo | I fear change |
| 03:30.00 | JeffM_ | or add features |
| 03:30.02 | Notify | 03BZFlag:jeffm2501 * 22820 trunk/bzflag/src/bzfs/bzfs.cxx: if the returned flag type is "DELETE" from a shot event, don't broadcast the shot |
| 03:30.02 | JeffM_ | pfff |
| 03:30.10 | JeffM_ | if that was what we did , nothing would ever get done |
| 03:30.15 | JeffM_ | set the shot type to DELETE |
| 03:30.20 | JeffM_ | and you'll be ok |
| 03:30.22 | drizzo4shizzo | lol |
| 03:30.34 | drizzo4shizzo | that was easy |
| 03:30.44 | JeffM_ | yup |
| 03:30.45 | drizzo4shizzo | now how much of my code goes away :-/ |
| 03:31.13 | drizzo4shizzo | not complaining just... I'll figure it out later ;) |
| 03:31.20 | JeffM_ | also means we can never add a flag type named "DELETE" |
| 03:31.27 | drizzo4shizzo | aw man |
| 03:31.31 | JeffM_ | but I think we'll be safe |
| 03:32.21 | drizzo4shizzo | I suppose preventing drops on the client is a larger matter :) |
| 03:32.31 | drizzo4shizzo | well yeah nevermind |
| 03:32.33 | JeffM_ | yeah that requires a protocol change |
| 03:32.34 | drizzo4shizzo | of course it would be |
| 03:33.28 | drizzo4shizzo | hmm this would mean anyone who wants to use my plugin needs *bleeding edge* svn server, but that again is not a complaint as such |
| 03:33.40 | JeffM_ | yeah most servers do that anyway |
| 03:33.50 | JeffM_ | it's a common thing |
| 03:33.52 | drizzo4shizzo | hehe who did we just break |
| 03:34.06 | JeffM_ | nobody, untill you change your code |
| 03:34.51 | JeffM_ | if mofo runs it then they are VERY used to updating |
| 03:35.03 | JeffM_ | I think they update every day |
| 03:35.10 | drizzo4shizzo | mofo runs it currentl |
| 03:35.22 | drizzo4shizzo | which works out well cos I like their map |
| 03:35.39 | JeffM_ | if you update your code they will be fine to update the server |
| 03:35.46 | JeffM_ | again I think it actualy happens automaticly |
| 03:35.58 | drizzo4shizzo | haha well maybe but again they have a 1 line patch to apply too |
| 03:36.19 | JeffM_ | for bzfs? |
| 03:36.20 | allejo | actually mofo doesn't update much |
| 03:36.23 | drizzo4shizzo | yeah |
| 03:36.27 | drizzo4shizzo | for bzfs |
| 03:36.31 | JeffM_ | they won't patch |
| 03:36.35 | JeffM_ | they get from SVN |
| 03:36.43 | drizzo4shizzo | well maybe for some of their games |
| 03:36.44 | allejo | yea what jeff said |
| 03:36.45 | JeffM_ | allejo, I thought they had an update script |
| 03:36.53 | drizzo4shizzo | but for the gungame optic did patch the bzfs.cxx in one line |
| 03:37.01 | allejo | not since thumper left as sysadmin |
| 03:37.02 | JeffM_ | what line? |
| 03:37.04 | JeffM_ | ahh |
| 03:37.11 | drizzo4shizzo | uh, let me see |
| 03:37.22 | allejo | though that's not a bad idea. update on a weekly basis |
| 03:37.25 | allejo | crontab |
| 03:37.37 | JeffM_ | some people do it daily, or with each commit |
| 03:37.42 | JeffM_ | blast does it very often IIRC |
| 03:37.57 | JeffM_ | the downside is if we break something it breaks a live game |
| 03:38.06 | JeffM_ | the upside is FREEE testing! |
| 03:38.11 | allejo | yea i was about to say that lol |
| 03:38.20 | allejo | i think a weekly update could work |
| 03:38.40 | JeffM_ | most changes we make these days just seem to be build warnings |
| 03:39.37 | allejo | hurray for less warnings |
| 03:39.38 | allejo | ? |
| 03:39.38 | drizzo4shizzo | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:39.51 | drizzo4shizzo | he commented out the removePlayer() call |
| 03:40.13 | drizzo4shizzo | because my naughty little plugin brings about a scenario that causes this from time to time |
| 03:40.22 | drizzo4shizzo | resulting in kicks |
| 03:40.28 | allejo | oh yea i remember that. i removed the check for it |
| 03:40.39 | drizzo4shizzo | o |
| 03:40.39 | allejo | did it break after an svn update? |
| 03:40.54 | JeffM_ | it must have, I don't see a call to removePlayer on that line |
| 03:41.04 | JeffM_ | oh you applied it? |
| 03:41.05 | JeffM_ | good |
| 03:41.27 | JeffM_ | or make it an option the API can turn off |
| 03:41.29 | drizzo4shizzo | yea my version was from Mar 29 |
| 03:41.32 | JeffM_ | k |
| 03:41.35 | allejo | jeffm what about a bzfs option to turn it off? |
| 03:41.48 | JeffM_ | I'd go for that or an API function |
| 03:41.54 | JeffM_ | I'd prefer API function |
| 03:42.04 | JeffM_ | since it's something only plugins will want to do |
| 03:42.24 | JeffM_ | has there been a need to turn it off with no plugins runing? |
| 03:42.35 | drizzo4shizzo | not that I know of, but I know little |
| 03:42.45 | allejo | i've never run into the issue before |
| 03:42.55 | JeffM_ | then yeah make it an API function |
| 03:43.01 | JeffM_ | just set a global to check |
| 03:48.14 | allejo | JeffM_, so just create a bool at the top of bzfs.cxx whether or not to watch to remove players and have an api set it to false/true respectively? |
| 03:48.31 | JeffM_ | yeah |
| 03:48.59 | JeffM_ | you'll have to make it extern in the bzfs.h |
| 03:49.16 | JeffM_ | so you can call it from the api.cpp |
| 03:50.21 | drizzo4shizzo | thats probably better than just always allowing it :) |
| 03:50.37 | drizzo4shizzo | dunno how often it happens tho |
| 03:50.42 | drizzo4shizzo | maybe its cruft |
| 03:50.52 | JeffM_ | naw |
| 03:51.00 | JeffM_ | it's an acceptable option |
| 03:51.10 | drizzo4shizzo | sounds good to me |
| 03:51.37 | JeffM_ | all of the checks should be indivdualy settable |
| 03:51.56 | drizzo4shizzo | sounds like a panacea |
| 03:54.23 | allejo | JeffM_, would I have to set Flush(); reset the value? |
| 03:54.32 | JeffM_ | no, it's API only |
| 03:54.35 | JeffM_ | not a var |
| 03:55.20 | JeffM_ | just init it to true, make a function to set it to false |
| 03:55.34 | JeffM_ | then he can call it and be good |
| 03:56.16 | allejo | what if the plugin gets unloaded, wouldn't the value still be set to true? |
| 03:56.17 | Snake12534 | khonkhortisan : alive? |
| 03:56.20 | allejo | err false* |
| 03:56.30 | Snake12534 | allejo : can you please convince zac to play at bzbg 62, the guy won't listen :/ |
| 03:56.39 | allejo | Snake12534, ... |
| 03:56.41 | JeffM_ | make the function take a value so they can put it back |
| 03:56.44 | JeffM_ | Snake12534, /msg |
| 03:56.58 | Snake12534 | JeffM_ : sorry |
| 03:57.06 | JeffM_ | allejo, it'd be too hard to track multiple plugins that set it |
| 03:57.23 | drizzo4shizzo | interesting |
| 03:57.27 | JeffM_ | Snake12534, I don't think you are mature enough to be here, we keep having this conversation |
| 03:57.41 | allejo | so on unload, he'd have have to set the value back to false? |
| 03:57.46 | JeffM_ | yeah |
| 03:57.59 | JeffM_ | you can also make a function to get the value |
| 03:58.21 | JeffM_ | but yeah it's better then nothing |
| 03:58.34 | drizzo4shizzo | multiple plugins -- is there a defined order of loading? |
| 03:58.36 | JeffM_ | Snake12534, I recomend you stop joining this channel |
| 03:58.42 | JeffM_ | drizzo4shizzo, nope |
| 03:58.46 | JeffM_ | crapshoot |
| 03:58.51 | drizzo4shizzo | heh |
| 03:59.05 | drizzo4shizzo | I'll just set it in the tick event :-P |
| 03:59.11 | JeffM_ | no |
| 03:59.14 | JeffM_ | set it on load |
| 03:59.20 | JeffM_ | unset it on unload |
| 03:59.25 | JeffM_ | I doubt there will be multiples |
| 03:59.29 | drizzo4shizzo | re-set it on unload yes |
| 03:59.33 | drizzo4shizzo | it seems unlikely |
| 03:59.34 | JeffM_ | if it beomes a problem we can deal with it then |
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| 04:00.52 | Snake12534_ | How to kick Snake12534? |
| 04:01.02 | Snake12534_ | Client Crashed :/ |
| 04:01.03 | JeffM_ | /part |
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| 04:01.13 | allejo | lmao |
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| 04:01.30 | JeffM_ | set your client to join another channel |
| 04:01.35 | allejo | ~JeffM_++ |
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| 04:02.01 | *** kick/#bzflag [Snake12534_!~JeffM@unaffiliated/jeffm2501] by JeffM2501 (Snake12534_) |
| 04:02.23 | allejo | you missed one |
| 04:02.41 | *** kick/#bzflag [Snake12534!~JeffM@unaffiliated/jeffm2501] by JeffM2501 (Snake12534) |
| 04:03.28 | JeffM2501 | allejo, you have 2 options, the function, or to add a member to the plugin class |
| 04:03.53 | JeffM2501 | but that may require plugin rebuilds |
| 04:03.58 | JeffM2501 | so just do the function for now |
| 04:04.11 | allejo | is there any specific order the bzfsapi.cxx is laid out? |
| 04:04.14 | JeffM2501 | I think we need to add a generic key/value list to the plugin option |
| 04:04.15 | JeffM2501 | naw |
| 04:04.49 | JeffM2501 | you can add it near something else that does something similar |
| 04:04.52 | JeffM2501 | like game options |
| 04:04.57 | JeffM2501 | or recording options |
| 04:05.22 | allejo | server control work? |
| 04:05.27 | JeffM2501 | sure |
| 04:05.43 | JeffM2501 | very few people seem to read the header these days anyway |
| 04:05.48 | JeffM2501 | they search wiki or ask here |
| 04:07.53 | Nidhoggr | jeffm! |
| 04:07.56 | Nidhoggr | :) |
| 04:08.12 | JeffM2501 | sup! |
| 04:08.21 | Nidhoggr | how are ya? |
| 04:08.22 | Nidhoggr | ltns |
| 04:08.28 | JeffM2501 | I'm good, how are you? |
| 04:08.45 | Nidhoggr | good. I replaced dragon.org server with mac mini server. |
| 04:09.00 | JeffM2501 | My condolences |
| 04:09.01 | JeffM2501 | ;) |
| 04:09.02 | Nidhoggr | was debian lenny. :) |
| 04:09.18 | Nidhoggr | and I lost the swap partition and decided it was time to retire the hardware. |
| 04:10.10 | JeffM2501 | last I read the OSX microkernel sucked for apache and the like |
| 04:10.17 | JeffM2501 | but maybe they fixed that |
| 04:10.56 | Nidhoggr | it seems to be working well |
| 04:11.09 | JeffM2501 | cool |
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| 18:10.49 | allejo | JeffM: wait commit? |
| 18:11.22 | JeffM | you submited a patch for the remove player thing right? |
| 18:12.56 | allejo | yea i did |
| 18:13.10 | JeffM | just commit it |
| 18:13.36 | allejo | i don't have commit access lol |
| 18:13.43 | allejo | afaik |
| 18:13.45 | JeffM | well why not? |
| 18:13.59 | allejo | shrugs |
| 18:13.59 | JeffM | anyone disagree? |
| 18:14.10 | blast007 | no disagreement here |
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| 18:15.00 | JeffM | you are set |
| 18:15.05 | JeffM | don't break anythying |
| 18:15.08 | JeffM | and be good |
| 18:15.22 | JeffM | add yourself to the authors list with the commit |
| 18:16.40 | JeffM | allejo, the bug should be assigned to you now |
| 18:18.00 | allejo | oh alright. thanks jeff :D |
| 18:18.21 | JeffM | thanks for taking the time to work on the project ;) |
| 18:18.34 | allejo | i should probably read up on how to use sourceforge... |
| 18:18.40 | blast007 | also, you'll have to use either the https:// or the svn+ssh:// URL to commit. |
| 18:18.41 | JeffM | it sucks |
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| 18:19.16 | JeffM | for the tracker ticket you just hit edit, and change the status to "closed" and add a comment like "Applied to svn" |
| 18:19.21 | JeffM | you can also provide the revision |
| 18:19.41 | JeffM | and yeah for svn you'll have to change your connection type |
| 18:19.55 | JeffM | you can probalby do a relocate on your repository to bind it to the correct URL |
| 18:21.05 | allejo | by closing the ticket does it apply the patch or do i apply it with the checkout that i have? |
| 18:21.23 | JeffM | closin the ticket just makes it not show as open |
| 18:21.30 | JeffM | the commit to svn is a seperate step |
| 18:21.32 | JeffM | do that first |
| 18:21.47 | JeffM | get your repo hooked into your dev credenitals |
| 18:22.02 | JeffM | then commit the code change ( with your edit to authrors) |
| 18:22.15 | JeffM | add a comment that says you are applying the patch (use the ticket number) |
| 18:22.36 | JeffM | then close the ticket and put the SVN revision number that was generated from the commit in the comment |
| 18:22.43 | JeffM | that way we just have a 2 way link |
| 18:23.55 | blast007 | do an 'svn diff' before commit to ensure the changes there match up right |
| 18:24.03 | blast007 | and make sure it compiles and works ;) |
| 18:24.03 | allejo | slowly figures out svn |
| 18:24.08 | JeffM | and that you arn't checking in anything else |
| 18:24.29 | JeffM | you may want to keep 2 checkouts, one for things you want to commit and one to play around in |
| 18:24.48 | JeffM | I'm off to lunch but if you have questions ask here, blast007 and BulletCatcher know how it works |
| 18:25.06 | JeffM | this is my form of "Patches unwelcome" |
| 18:25.07 | allejo | thanks jeff |
| 18:25.16 | JeffM | patches are a pain to apply, just let em fix it ;) |
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| 18:45.21 | Notify | 03BZFlag:allejo * 22821 (trunk/bzflag/AUTHORS trunk/bzflag/include/bzfsAPI.h and 3 others): Applied patch #572 and added allejo to authors file |
| 19:30.35 | JeffM | looks like you got it hooked up allejo |
| 19:34.28 | allejo | :D |
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| 20:12.41 | JeffM | allejo, if we see the drillze guy we should tell him that it's in place so people don't have to patch |
| 20:37.25 | allejo | JeffM: alrighty, he usually stops by planet mofo's channel |
| 20:40.15 | swigg | JeffM: how tough would it really be to port the game to xbox or playstation? |
| 20:43.56 | JeffM | swigg, hard in a techincal sense or hard in a biz sense? |
| 20:44.13 | JeffM | in a techicnal sense, like 3 weeks if we went with an existing engine |
| 20:44.27 | JeffM | BZFlag could be busted out in Unity super easy |
| 20:44.50 | JeffM | the rest is money and contacts to get it published |
| 20:45.04 | swigg | With the new consoles, I would think now is the time |
| 20:45.15 | JeffM | we have no money or contacts |
| 20:45.24 | JeffM | XBoxOne requires a real publisher |
| 20:45.42 | JeffM | Ps4 does not but there are no toolkits for it that we can get yet |
| 20:46.02 | JeffM | give us a couple million and sure we can come out on the new consoles a bit after launch |
| 20:46.14 | swigg | I mean, you guys release 2 linux packages, one mac and one win |
| 20:46.21 | blast007 | we release 0 linux packages |
| 20:46.31 | blast007 | source packages don't count as "linux packages" |
| 20:46.32 | JeffM | yeah that's up to each distro |
| 20:46.35 | swigg | ok, what does Bullet catcher do? |
| 20:46.55 | blast007 | the project doesn't release linux packages. individual developers might help with that. |
| 20:46.58 | JeffM | for convineice we build the tarbal both windows and unix formated |
| 20:47.11 | JeffM | not sure what that has to do with consoles |
| 20:47.21 | swigg | from the layman's view, it is essentially the same thing |
| 20:47.23 | blast007 | because the playstation runs linux right! |
| 20:47.27 | JeffM | oh god no |
| 20:47.29 | blast007 | ;) |
| 20:47.33 | swigg | and with the consoles, you don't need a clickable interface |
| 20:47.47 | JeffM | the layman dosn't know squat about how console games are published |
| 20:47.56 | swigg | nor PC games |
| 20:47.58 | JeffM | you don't just use a windows PC and write a game for the PS3 |
| 20:48.02 | swigg | but you guys still do it |
| 20:48.04 | JeffM | you get a dev kit |
| 20:48.12 | swigg | and it's all in c++ |
| 20:48.15 | JeffM | aka dev hardware and write a bunch of low level code |
| 20:48.21 | JeffM | nope a lot of console games is in assembly |
| 20:48.24 | JeffM | and/or shaders |
| 20:48.35 | JeffM | the PS3 dosn't really have an OS |
| 20:48.41 | swigg | Well, look @ what they did with the wii homebrew |
| 20:49.00 | JeffM | sure, and that is not legit publishing |
| 20:49.04 | JeffM | we won't do homebrew |
| 20:49.06 | blast007 | we are not going to rely on hardware hacks to publish our game |
| 20:49.12 | JeffM | yeah tha'ts not publishing |
| 20:49.19 | JeffM | there is wiiware |
| 20:49.30 | JeffM | but I belive that got dropped with the WII u |
| 20:49.39 | swigg | You guys could move the sun moon and stars if you wanted to |
| 20:49.39 | JeffM | XNA is going away |
| 20:49.53 | blast007 | swigg: yeah, you just have to press the - and + keys |
| 20:49.57 | JeffM | only with regards to our PC publising |
| 20:50.01 | blast007 | unless the server owner has that disabled |
| 20:50.06 | JeffM | consoles are super locked down |
| 20:50.06 | blast007 | :P |
| 20:50.25 | JeffM | bassicly a developer rearely self publishes on the console |
| 20:50.31 | JeffM | you have to go with a real publisher |
| 20:50.38 | JeffM | XBone will require it |
| 20:50.38 | swigg | you could do it. |
| 20:50.52 | JeffM | sure, give us a couple million |
| 20:51.04 | JeffM | and no publisher would let it be open source |
| 20:51.08 | swigg | Maybe if you were a government defense contractor |
| 20:51.22 | blast007 | heck, for playstation you have to sign an NDA, and I wouldn't doubt the others have that as well |
| 20:51.23 | swigg | Where would the millions go? |
| 20:51.35 | JeffM | to setting up a for profit company |
| 20:51.43 | JeffM | paying developers to write a new codebase |
| 20:51.50 | JeffM | for getting a deal with a publisher |
| 20:51.55 | blast007 | a new codebase for each platform |
| 20:51.55 | JeffM | and then getting screwed |
| 20:52.03 | swigg | isn't that what the publishers do? |
| 20:52.05 | JeffM | there are some libs that would help it be multi platform |
| 20:52.19 | JeffM | yes publishers screw develpopers, thats why they exist |
| 20:52.27 | swigg | I mean, according to that philosophy, no new authors would get published |
| 20:52.32 | blast007 | JeffM: true, but if you really want to push the console, it's going to be a lot of custom code for each |
| 20:52.33 | JeffM | yeah it's VERY hard |
| 20:52.40 | JeffM | thats why they all go to steam and the PC |
| 20:52.48 | JeffM | blast007, yeah |
| 20:53.19 | JeffM | swigg, I've been an exibitor at E3 where I saw the people I worked with talk to publushers about just this thing |
| 20:53.22 | swigg | TH\hink from a resourceful perspective: If you HAD to do it, what would be the easiest/sheapest way? |
| 20:53.35 | swigg | *cheapest |
| 20:53.42 | swigg | dang this keyboard |
| 20:53.44 | JeffM | cheapest woudl probalby need about 500k |
| 20:54.10 | JeffM | buy unity, make the game, and then hope to get lucky that some publisher picks it up |
| 20:54.20 | swigg | Half a mil. |
| 20:54.26 | JeffM | yeah if you are lucky |
| 20:54.28 | swigg | that is half a lifetime's earnings |
| 20:54.37 | JeffM | I mean you have to PAY ms to put your game on the console |
| 20:54.59 | JeffM | the dev kit is 50k allone |
| 20:55.12 | JeffM | and they have the right to refuse to publish at any time |
| 20:55.19 | swigg | MS was giving some away for free last gen on the xbox |
| 20:55.28 | JeffM | the main problem is bzflag is not unique enough, they would say "No we are just going with World Of Tanks" |
| 20:55.39 | JeffM | yeah they have contests every so often |
| 20:55.44 | JeffM | but you can not base a biz plan on luck |
| 20:55.59 | swigg | WOT is not the same game |
| 20:56.13 | JeffM | to a publisher it's better, it has an in game store ;) |
| 20:56.24 | JeffM | realisticly if you wanted bzflag to get on a console you'd first make it a comercial sucsess on the PC |
| 20:56.34 | JeffM | so get it on steam, show it can make money |
| 20:56.35 | swigg | I mean, if you could get the code to run on the thing, make it available for free download |
| 20:56.46 | JeffM | that's against the console EULA |
| 20:56.47 | swigg | or $5 or whatever |
| 20:56.57 | JeffM | you can't just load any app on a console |
| 20:56.59 | JeffM | they aren't computers |
| 20:57.03 | blast007 | swigg: again with the hardware hacks... |
| 20:57.10 | JeffM | have you ever actualy used a console? |
| 20:57.17 | swigg | yes. I own several |
| 20:57.27 | JeffM | yeah we won't circumvent a EUAL |
| 20:57.29 | JeffM | EULA |
| 20:57.29 | swigg | wii, xbox360 |
| 20:57.45 | JeffM | XBLA is the closest thing we could use |
| 20:57.51 | JeffM | since it allows self publishing |
| 20:58.00 | JeffM | but it's not going to exist on the XBone |
| 20:58.07 | blast007 | there seems to be some self publishing thing from sony now as well |
| 20:58.13 | JeffM | yeah I haven't looked into it |
| 20:58.23 | blast007 | poof |
| 20:58.25 | JeffM | but I belive they all require closed source like apple does |
| 20:58.34 | blast007 | yeah, there was mention of an NDA |
| 20:58.47 | *** join/#bzflag swigg (~swigg@bzflag/player/Swigg) |
| 20:59.04 | JeffM | gimme 4500$ and I'll make you a closed source BZFlag for PC, iOS, and Android |
| 20:59.16 | JeffM | even with a web player :) |
| 20:59.25 | JeffM | oh and OSX |
| 20:59.32 | JeffM | probalby even linux too |
| 20:59.35 | JeffM | at least for a client |
| 20:59.43 | swigg | I would give you $5000 if you could do it for a console |
| 20:59.49 | swigg | no joke |
| 20:59.58 | JeffM | oh no, that's no where near close enough |
| 21:00.16 | swigg | 5 G's in three weeks |
| 21:00.19 | JeffM | consoles make apple's walled garden look like the amazon rain-forrest |
| 21:00.29 | JeffM | consoles INVENTED lock in |
| 21:00.39 | blast007 | haha, I am so going to save that line |
| 21:00.41 | JeffM | you know MS makes like 15$ per disk right? |
| 21:00.54 | swigg | Has anyone actually doen homework on this? |
| 21:00.57 | JeffM | like right off the bat for "licensing fees" |
| 21:01.10 | swigg | No discs; download only |
| 21:01.17 | JeffM | most developers make less then 5% of the purchase price for a game |
| 21:01.23 | JeffM | some don't even get any per game |
| 21:01.30 | JeffM | flat payments for milestones |
| 21:01.32 | swigg | so.. same pay as now |
| 21:01.39 | JeffM | but not the same costs |
| 21:01.53 | JeffM | less pay, more cost |
| 21:02.02 | swigg | Ok... may I call up some of the publishers and see about it? |
| 21:02.13 | JeffM | this is why most long term developers end up being purchased by a publisher |
| 21:02.21 | JeffM | ok you call up EA, let me know what they say |
| 21:02.26 | blast007 | lol |
| 21:02.28 | JeffM | you can call whoever you want |
| 21:02.31 | JeffM | it's your time |
| 21:02.44 | JeffM | none of them will want to work with an open source project |
| 21:02.46 | swigg | just so long as you don't mind |
| 21:02.57 | JeffM | how can I have any say with what you do? |
| 21:03.09 | swigg | I would think that Bullfrog or GT studios would do it |
| 21:03.17 | swigg | JeffM: Because you are the boss |
| 21:03.19 | JeffM | bullfrog is a developer |
| 21:03.43 | JeffM | I am not the boss of you |
| 21:03.50 | swigg | In many ways you are |
| 21:04.10 | JeffM | now if you are asking for official support from the copyright holder of the game to represent it in legal negotations, then that I can not give |
| 21:04.13 | JeffM | that's all Tim |
| 21:04.28 | swigg | If you wanted me gone, it would take you guys all of 5 minutes to delete me from BZ forever |
| 21:04.35 | JeffM | but the VERY first thing anyone is going to ask you is what company you are with |
| 21:05.18 | JeffM | bzflag.org is not a company |
| 21:05.31 | JeffM | and remember the consoles exist for proft, not to make games for people |
| 21:05.38 | swigg | I would think that if you guys got ancillary costs and let them keep the console version open source |
| 21:05.45 | swigg | *oops closed |
| 21:05.57 | JeffM | it would be a new codebase anywhay |
| 21:06.08 | swigg | and they had no problem with leaving the PC version being open |
| 21:06.10 | JeffM | there is nothing that you could possibly keep from our codebase |
| 21:06.26 | JeffM | where have you seen an open source PC game be ported to a console? |
| 21:06.39 | JeffM | I have seen closed source games wiht console ports OPEN the PC code later |
| 21:06.52 | swigg | Well, the roku and many other commercial products use BSD/GNU busy box, etc |
| 21:06.53 | JeffM | but never go from Open to Closed |
| 21:06.59 | JeffM | that's the OS not the game |
| 21:07.01 | swigg | Warzone2100 |
| 21:07.34 | JeffM | that was closed first then openend later |
| 21:07.51 | JeffM | that's the "it's old, open the PC codebase" |
| 21:08.07 | JeffM | that's very different from making a closed source version of an open srouce codebase |
| 21:08.19 | swigg | I think the reason it hasn't been done is because open source is a relatively new thing |
| 21:08.20 | JeffM | you can always open part of a closed projcet, but it's VERY hard to close part of an open project |
| 21:08.26 | JeffM | oh god no |
| 21:08.37 | JeffM | it's because most open source licenses specificly prevent it |
| 21:08.42 | JeffM | thats the ENTIRE reason they exist |
| 21:08.52 | JeffM | LGPL does not allow it |
| 21:09.01 | JeffM | tim would have to grant them a completely seperate license |
| 21:09.19 | swigg | How does Roku do it? |
| 21:09.23 | JeffM | and then they'd look at the game and see that it would fail horribly next to what is out there |
| 21:09.24 | swigg | they use GNU |
| 21:09.28 | JeffM | sure |
| 21:09.35 | swigg | many routers use busybox |
| 21:09.37 | JeffM | they release the source code to anything they have modified |
| 21:09.48 | JeffM | they do NOT close source the compoenents they use |
| 21:09.58 | JeffM | the closed source stuff they do runs on top of the open stuff |
| 21:10.00 | swigg | well, that is my point |
| 21:10.01 | blast007 | or at least not after they get caught ;) |
| 21:10.09 | blast007 | *cough*linksys*cough* |
| 21:10.20 | JeffM | you arn't talking about making a new projduct that runs on top of bzflag, you are talking about changing bzflag |
| 21:10.29 | swigg | I think you guys could do it easily |
| 21:10.39 | JeffM | honestly if this interests you, you should learn a LOT more about how software and licensing works |
| 21:10.41 | swigg | You are certainly smart enough |
| 21:10.46 | JeffM | do what? turn bzflag into an OS? |
| 21:10.52 | JeffM | you have no idea what you are talking about |
| 21:11.00 | swigg | Not an OS, just a console game |
| 21:11.20 | JeffM | no we can't |
| 21:11.29 | JeffM | we don't have rights to close source bzflag |
| 21:11.37 | JeffM | it is not legaly possible for us to do that |
| 21:12.03 | JeffM | and no publisher would accept a game like bzflag |
| 21:12.10 | swigg | Make a closed frontend for the console, then make the open source run on top of that |
| 21:12.18 | JeffM | dosn't work that way |
| 21:12.28 | JeffM | NO part of the console app can be open |
| 21:12.38 | swigg | It already is |
| 21:13.49 | blast007 | we don't have a console app, so no, it isn't already :P |
| 21:14.41 | swigg | I mean, if the PS4 is on BSD, they are already using some open source elements |
| 21:14.43 | JeffM | the console itself can choose to use open source applications, that's done by the console manufacture, not the application devleopers |
| 21:15.29 | blast007 | even if they do run some form of BSD, which I have yet to find evidence of, the BSD license allows closed-source use |
| 21:15.34 | JeffM | Sony can choose to use that, I can't |
| 21:15.44 | JeffM | Sony made the thing |
| 21:15.56 | JeffM | they wrote the license that I have to abide by to use there console |
| 21:16.00 | blast007 | and the license isn't the only issue... there's the NDA as well |
| 21:16.15 | JeffM | yeah it's all part of the agreement you make to put stuff on the device they own |
| 21:16.26 | JeffM | you know you don't actualy own the software on your console's right? |
| 21:16.32 | JeffM | you just have been granted a license to use it |
| 21:16.41 | swigg | I'veplayed some pretty lousy console games |
| 21:16.50 | JeffM | yep, sadly they sell |
| 21:16.56 | swigg | it's like the publishers farted and made it into a game |
| 21:17.06 | JeffM | but bzflag would be compared to WOT and the battlefield series |
| 21:17.07 | swigg | Your stuff does not suck |
| 21:17.20 | JeffM | step one would be to change the name |
| 21:17.41 | JeffM | no publisher is going to go near a game that has anythign like "Battlezone" in the name |
| 21:17.48 | JeffM | too many trademark problems with that |
| 21:17.48 | swigg | I mean, you guys wanted official servers anyway |
| 21:17.57 | JeffM | we talked about it, as a solution to one problem |
| 21:18.02 | JeffM | it had some disadvantages |
| 21:18.19 | JeffM | that's nowhere near what it takes for console games |
| 21:18.31 | swigg | I mean, if you guys did this, the playerbase would go up 100 fold |
| 21:18.37 | JeffM | the challenges at the console level are not techincal, they are social and biz related |
| 21:18.47 | swigg | or more |
| 21:18.55 | JeffM | there are so many things we could do that would be way cheaper that could increase the playerbase |
| 21:19.07 | swigg | and you guys could get royalties from the server alone |
| 21:19.20 | JeffM | at this point a real console effort would kill bzflag by sapping all the money and effort |
| 21:19.25 | JeffM | dosn't work that way |
| 21:19.39 | JeffM | go read up on publisher contracts ;) |
| 21:19.57 | swigg | How do you guys know so much about console publishing, anyway? |
| 21:19.57 | JeffM | the thing to do with publisher contracts is work so you get screwed the least |
| 21:20.03 | JeffM | I've been part of it |
| 21:20.21 | JeffM | I did work for a game company that went though the process of porting from the PC to the PS2 |
| 21:20.31 | JeffM | it was the worst choice they ever made |
| 21:21.15 | swigg | I mean, ideally, if it could be done, so as that the PC games could have the console guys, it would be the best of all worlds |
| 21:21.29 | JeffM | oh no publisher would let you mix |
| 21:21.41 | JeffM | you want people to have to buy the console version to play with friends |
| 21:21.44 | JeffM | it's all about profit |
| 21:21.54 | JeffM | XBox dosn't let you have a real socket connection |
| 21:21.56 | JeffM | PS3 may |
| 21:21.59 | swigg | Ok.. .for funding... what about kickstarter? |
| 21:22.11 | JeffM | I'd rather kickstart PC changes and get on steam |
| 21:22.22 | JeffM | that's realistic |
| 21:22.36 | swigg | well... it's a great start |
| 21:22.56 | swigg | think of what all it would do for your resume alone |
| 21:23.01 | blast007 | "Hey everyone.. we have no experience writing console games, but we have this 15 year old codebase that we'd like to port to consoles. Give us monies, k?" |
| 21:23.15 | swigg | stranger things have happened |
| 21:23.17 | JeffM | yeah even now our kickstarter would fail, we don't have enough plan |
| 21:23.23 | JeffM | only in your dreams |
| 21:23.26 | swigg | look at all the kickstart projects |
| 21:23.33 | JeffM | yeah look at them ALL |
| 21:23.36 | swigg | some have sucked |
| 21:23.37 | JeffM | not just the ones that did well |
| 21:23.44 | JeffM | the vast majority fail |
| 21:24.06 | JeffM | we'd have to have a set of very clear goals for a kickstarter |
| 21:24.13 | JeffM | and a compnay setup to manage it |
| 21:24.39 | swigg | remembering from 3 years ago... with 300 BZ servers running, if you took the money running the dead servers alone, the money would be there |
| 21:25.09 | JeffM | the money for those servers isn't something we can access |
| 21:25.28 | swigg | but could be voluntarily reapropriated |
| 21:25.29 | JeffM | people who ran those did not see them as money |
| 21:25.31 | JeffM | they saw them as time |
| 21:25.41 | JeffM | on I'm sure some people would help fund the kickstarter |
| 21:25.52 | swigg | I pay to support a cetain server already |
| 21:25.54 | JeffM | but not at the level it'd take |
| 21:26.04 | JeffM | ok how much do you pay? |
| 21:26.08 | JeffM | 10k? |
| 21:26.11 | swigg | $20/mo |
| 21:26.18 | JeffM | so normal VPS prices |
| 21:26.23 | swigg | basically |
| 21:26.43 | JeffM | from what I've seen there are probalby about 20-30 people who'd be willing to do that |
| 21:26.58 | swigg | ok, so $6000/mo |
| 21:27.14 | JeffM | at the max |
| 21:27.23 | swigg | not too shabby |
| 21:27.35 | JeffM | that's about enough for a single developer |
| 21:27.37 | JeffM | and nothing else |
| 21:27.49 | JeffM | advertising wise that'd get us some coverage |
| 21:28.06 | swigg | but a single paid dev is all you guys need; the volunteers would do the rest |
| 21:28.18 | JeffM | rarely works out that way |
| 21:28.30 | JeffM | do you have any experience with software companies? |
| 21:28.35 | swigg | Could this be investigated at least? |
| 21:28.47 | swigg | Not much; My bro works @ Dow Jones |
| 21:28.48 | JeffM | it's been talked about a lot |
| 21:29.15 | JeffM | but I'd not do a kickstarter to just pay a single dude |
| 21:29.16 | swigg | Programming analyst level 3 |
| 21:29.25 | JeffM | you'd want to do code bounties |
| 21:29.32 | JeffM | and set up an income stream |
| 21:29.42 | swigg | You guys already do so much on a shoestring |
| 21:29.48 | JeffM | we do jack |
| 21:29.58 | JeffM | seriously, compare our development to opther peojects |
| 21:29.59 | swigg | Yet you do so much |
| 21:30.12 | JeffM | what fix a few one line bugs every year? |
| 21:30.24 | JeffM | you know we didn't write bzflag right? |
| 21:30.24 | swigg | You understate what you do |
| 21:30.30 | JeffM | you overestimate |
| 21:30.39 | JeffM | go look at the development on SuperTuxKart |
| 21:31.23 | JeffM | you are basing your statements on conjecture and misinformation |
| 21:31.30 | JeffM | and something you don't really understand |
| 21:31.56 | *** join/#bzflag swigg (~swigg@bzflag/player/Swigg) |
| 21:32.01 | swigg | What does SuperTuxKart or Warzone2100 do that you guys can't? |
| 21:32.21 | JeffM | more then a commit a day ;) |
| 21:32.28 | JeffM | have a plan |
| 21:32.34 | JeffM | manage a SOC |
| 21:32.39 | JeffM | have more then one release a year |
| 21:32.54 | swigg | If they can do it, so can you |
| 21:33.11 | JeffM | can we? we have tried before yet here we are |
| 21:33.15 | swigg | or even freeNAS |
| 21:33.30 | JeffM | all those projects have stronger leadership and better goals |
| 21:33.40 | JeffM | we have dificulty getting momentum behind ideas |
| 21:33.43 | swigg | Calling Tim Riker!!!! |
| 21:33.56 | JeffM | we've tried that |
| 21:33.58 | swigg | We need a superhero |
| 21:34.05 | JeffM | those don't exist |
| 21:34.14 | JeffM | you can't wish for change, you have to make it happen |
| 21:34.43 | swigg | well, I want it, the players want it. |
| 21:34.49 | swigg | the owners want it |
| 21:35.39 | swigg | I don't code, so I don't know what all I can do |
| 21:35.55 | swigg | But I want to help, if I can |
| 21:36.21 | swigg | I could wrute technical manuals |
| 21:36.26 | swigg | Instruction guides |
| 21:36.51 | swigg | possibly even TOS |
| 21:37.14 | swigg | I could promote |
| 21:38.58 | swigg | I mean, Isaac Asimov is still going strong, even though he died in what, 1992? |
| 21:39.32 | *** join/#bzflag Gnurdux (~gnurdux@CMU-866979.WV.CC.CMU.EDU) |
| 21:39.33 | JeffM | that's all after the fact stuff |
| 21:39.52 | JeffM | it's cool that you want to help but at this point none of that would be useful |
| 21:40.18 | JeffM | what is needed now is design, goals, and motivated developers and game designers |
| 21:40.37 | swigg | well, I se that when promotion gets pushed, you guys backlash with "We should make the game better" |
| 21:40.49 | JeffM | sure |
| 21:41.00 | JeffM | because promotion is putting the cart before the horse |
| 21:41.01 | swigg | and when making the game better is pushed, the backlash is "We need more players" |
| 21:41.19 | JeffM | I have NEVER seen anyone say that about development |
| 21:41.28 | JeffM | I would call that developer stupid |
| 21:41.37 | swigg | I remember it being discussed two weeks ago, right here |
| 21:41.38 | JeffM | and insult there parentage |
| 21:41.41 | JeffM | by who? |
| 21:41.47 | swigg | You guys. |
| 21:42.03 | swigg | I guess I could pull the IRC logs |
| 21:42.05 | JeffM | I can see using player count to talk about what features to give priority |
| 21:42.20 | JeffM | but not to say " I wont' do this untill we have X players" |
| 21:42.34 | swigg | Yeah, you didn't say that |
| 21:42.43 | swigg | but it seemed to elude to that |
| 21:42.57 | JeffM | I have never felt that way nor known anyone who has felt that way |
| 21:43.06 | swigg | remember when we were talking about an instructional server? |
| 21:43.29 | swigg | and I mentioned using a replay server? |
| 21:43.38 | JeffM | yeah we want to make one, we need some techincal things to get there, but I don't recall anyone saying they were not willing to do it based on player counts. |
| 21:43.52 | JeffM | a replay server isn't interactive enough |
| 21:44.03 | JeffM | you want a proper tutorial to teach people how to play |
| 21:44.11 | JeffM | we've got a pretty clear idea about what we need |
| 21:44.14 | swigg | nor are instructions as how to assemble an IKEA desk |
| 21:44.22 | JeffM | do the GUI dialogs and finish off SSPs |
| 21:44.37 | JeffM | maybe also add world channels to split people into instances |
| 21:44.46 | JeffM | then it's all just server side scripting |
| 21:45.39 | swigg | I remember NightMare having a cast of characters who came in as bots and acted out "King Lear" |
| 21:45.56 | JeffM | yeah that's exactly what should be possible |
| 21:46.06 | JeffM | but right now bots are client side |
| 21:46.12 | swigg | same diff |
| 21:46.23 | JeffM | not really |
| 21:46.35 | JeffM | it's much harder to run a tutorial server when it requires a client compoenent |
| 21:46.47 | JeffM | it needs to be REALLY easy to run a tutorial server |
| 21:46.51 | swigg | runit in a loop |
| 21:47.04 | JeffM | that's not great for the user who happens to come into in the middle |
| 21:47.22 | JeffM | remember that these are people who have never played before and won't know what is going on |
| 21:47.26 | JeffM | and will NOT read the docs |
| 21:47.35 | swigg | better than nothing; Something can be learned, no matter where they start |
| 21:47.37 | JeffM | it needs to be super hand holdy |
| 21:48.11 | swigg | well... |
| 21:48.19 | JeffM | actualy no it's not, that's the thing people don't see. a BAD tutorial confuses people and makes them think the entire game is like that, where with out a tutorial at least they know that they have to learn themselves |
| 21:48.24 | swigg | In that case, just run the server locally on the client comp |
| 21:48.37 | blast007 | swigg: if anything, what was said was that there might be less motivation knowing that we're developing for so few players |
| 21:48.38 | swigg | You can do BZ offline from the client |
| 21:48.45 | JeffM | a possiblity then we'd need to have multiple client insitances |
| 21:48.49 | JeffM | better off to just finish the server |
| 21:49.02 | swigg | local replay would do just that |
| 21:49.08 | JeffM | replay isn't interactive |
| 21:49.13 | JeffM | you need "shoot this guy" |
| 21:49.22 | JeffM | and then have it stop when you shoot that guy |
| 21:49.35 | JeffM | not show a player a guy shooting another guy |
| 21:49.41 | swigg | but it's a start. You could use the same thing that shows the team flag on the HUD |
| 21:49.50 | blast007 | might as well have youtube tutorials if that's the amount of effort you want to put into it.. cuz youtube videos would be *better* than a replay server |
| 21:49.50 | swigg | in experimental mode |
| 21:49.53 | JeffM | that's the same thing as youtube vidoes |
| 21:49.59 | JeffM | yeah you are just showing |
| 21:50.01 | JeffM | not doing |
| 21:50.14 | JeffM | again we know what need to do |
| 21:50.18 | swigg | YouTube is where I learn how to fix the newer cars |
| 21:50.19 | blast007 | we can show AND tell with a proper client/server |
| 21:50.22 | JeffM | it's probalby less work then jurry rigging up replay |
| 21:50.22 | blast007 | er |
| 21:50.25 | blast007 | show AND do* |
| 21:50.40 | JeffM | yeah |
| 21:50.48 | JeffM | I mean many games do this already :) |
| 21:51.03 | blast007 | bump player to observer, move their camera to a specific spot, have a SSP as a ghost tank do the action, then bring the player back in and say "do it yourself now" |
| 21:51.22 | blast007 | and detect when they did it right |
| 21:51.34 | swigg | if the opponant was a scripted bot, it should not be too tough |
| 21:51.42 | blast007 | it's more than that |
| 21:51.47 | swigg | of course |
| 21:52.03 | blast007 | the scripting of the bot is probably the easiest part |
| 21:52.20 | blast007 | just gonna be basic logic for the tutorial steps |
| 21:52.27 | swigg | well, the team switch plugin could handle the obs switching |
| 21:52.35 | blast007 | nope |
| 21:52.46 | blast007 | we would have true support for team switching |
| 21:52.50 | swigg | stopgap |
| 21:52.52 | JeffM | yeah you want to do it all correctly |
| 21:53.04 | blast007 | we can't do what we need in the current code |
| 21:53.10 | JeffM | again if the stopgap gives people the wrong impression it can do more harm then good |
| 21:53.14 | swigg | you guys are close |
| 21:53.26 | blast007 | close to forking to 2.6 and doing it right? |
| 21:53.29 | JeffM | and if we are going to spend time making something then we should make the RIGHT thing, not make the wrong thing, then make the right thing later |
| 21:53.31 | blast007 | branching* |
| 21:54.35 | JeffM | so you think that since we lack the motivation to do it correclty, we will have the motivation to do it baddly once then do it correclty later? |
| 21:54.56 | swigg | No... I think you guys say "no" too easily |
| 21:55.11 | swigg | and don't offer any further alternatives |
| 21:55.14 | JeffM | how do you know how easy it is for us to do anything? |
| 21:55.23 | blast007 | swigg: by "further" you mean "worse"? |
| 21:55.27 | JeffM | actualy we talk a lot about alternatives |
| 21:55.32 | JeffM | we JUST now talked about one |
| 21:55.36 | swigg | Because you guys are some of the smartest people I have even interacted with |
| 21:55.44 | JeffM | then you need to get out more ;) |
| 21:56.07 | blast007 | we're just very good at using google and wikipedia |
| 21:56.29 | blast007 | I'm actually a cleverbot |
| 21:56.37 | JeffM | I try to listen to every idea I see and then look at it to see if it is viable |
| 21:56.37 | swigg | I hear ya, Argooon |
| 21:56.44 | JeffM | not all ideas are viable |
| 21:57.01 | JeffM | and sadly we get a lot of bad ideas, usualy from people who don't understand how something works |
| 21:57.16 | JeffM | I mean when you fix cars how many people tell you they KNOW what's wrong |
| 21:57.26 | JeffM | and all you have to do is crack an egg in the radiator |
| 21:57.30 | swigg | I don't rely on them |
| 21:57.33 | JeffM | it's a stopgap |
| 21:57.39 | JeffM | should be fine right? |
| 21:57.40 | swigg | I make my own diagnosis |
| 21:57.44 | JeffM | exactly |
| 21:57.47 | JeffM | that's what we are doing |
| 21:57.52 | swigg | and then do what they ask me to do, but the proper way |
| 21:58.03 | JeffM | exactly |
| 21:58.06 | swigg | But I still do what they ask |
| 21:58.10 | JeffM | you just want them to tell you the problem, NOT the solution |
| 21:58.14 | JeffM | that's all we want |
| 21:58.25 | swigg | Yesterday I drove a Porsche 944... with a corvette engine |
| 21:58.28 | JeffM | so many times people just give us a solution and don't even tell us the problem |
| 21:59.03 | JeffM | yeah people love to shove vette engines into anything |
| 21:59.14 | swigg | it was awesome |
| 21:59.19 | JeffM | heh |
| 21:59.49 | *** join/#bzflag tw1sted (~tw1sted@unaffiliated/tw1sted) |
| 22:00.17 | swigg | I could very well have built that car |
| 22:00.25 | JeffM | so do you end up saying no to a lot of your customers? |
| 22:00.31 | swigg | but I want a Benz with a vette engine |
| 22:00.36 | swigg | Inever say no |
| 22:00.38 | JeffM | as in doing it the way they want |
| 22:00.45 | JeffM | sure because then you'd never get paid |
| 22:00.50 | swigg | My clients don't do that to me |
| 22:01.02 | swigg | they tell me what they want, and I find a way to do it |
| 22:01.03 | JeffM | then you are lucky |
| 22:01.29 | JeffM | we get the 'armchair mechanic" here a lot |
| 22:01.36 | JeffM | but the "armchair game developer" |
| 22:01.54 | swigg | Ideas are great things.. Every thing we use comes from an idea |
| 22:02.06 | swigg | Heck, Steve Jobs didn't invent apple |
| 22:02.15 | JeffM | he just paid for it |
| 22:02.17 | swigg | he just sold it |
| 22:02.32 | swigg | he could have sold vacuum cleaners |
| 22:02.38 | JeffM | he did that after he paid for it ;) |
| 22:02.58 | swigg | Woz did it all in the beginning |
| 22:05.07 | *** join/#bzflag Delusional (~delusiona@unaffiliated/delusional) |
| 22:05.33 | swigg | so.. STeam might be viable? |
| 22:05.45 | JeffM | it'd be more viable then the consoles |
| 22:05.48 | JeffM | much more |
| 22:06.01 | swigg | and you guys think it might be possible under 2.6? |
| 22:06.25 | JeffM | I don't think we'll persue it untill after we get major parts of the game cleaned up |
| 22:06.36 | swigg | Ok.. hope for the future |
| 22:06.42 | swigg | makes me feel better |
| 22:06.44 | JeffM | and there could be some tricky stuff with Tim regarding it |
| 22:07.04 | JeffM | but steam is way more realistic a goal then PS4 or Xbone |
| 22:07.14 | swigg | baby steps |
| 22:07.33 | swigg | I have thought about steam, but don't know much about it |
| 22:07.42 | JeffM | sure the first step is to get any release out with a real feature in it |
| 22:08.11 | swigg | You guys have been very positive with good ideas lately |
| 22:08.25 | swigg | I was happy to see the commit about the USB scanning |
| 22:08.35 | JeffM | USB? |
| 22:08.43 | swigg | to rescan for game controllers |
| 22:08.46 | JeffM | oh |
| 22:08.49 | JeffM | meh |
| 22:09.08 | JeffM | I know you think controlls are the mesiah but honestly they are a minor part ;) |
| 22:09.28 | swigg | well... with my $5 eBay controller I can dominate the field |
| 22:09.42 | swigg | and I am not really a good player |
| 22:09.51 | JeffM | then that tells me that our other control inputs have problems |
| 22:09.59 | JeffM | not that controllers are inherently better |
| 22:10.03 | swigg | mice and KB have limitations |
| 22:10.13 | JeffM | specialy how we use them |
| 22:10.24 | swigg | If we were meant to play games with mice and KB, every game console would have them |
| 22:10.26 | JeffM | I belive there are ways to make each one work optimally |
| 22:10.47 | swigg | think kabout how the playstation controllers have stayed the same for 4 generations |
| 22:10.55 | JeffM | yeah |
| 22:10.58 | swigg | they are doing something right |
| 22:11.16 | JeffM | sure they work well with the games that are produced for that console |
| 22:11.17 | swigg | Mice and KB have been the same since the ALTO |
| 22:11.32 | JeffM | and most FPS players prefer Mouse+Keyboard |
| 22:11.40 | swigg | How? |
| 22:11.51 | JeffM | they win with them |
| 22:11.52 | swigg | COD uses a controller |
| 22:12.04 | JeffM | on the PC it can use ether |
| 22:12.15 | JeffM | and go look at the pro gaming people |
| 22:12.22 | JeffM | they have the choice to use ether |
| 22:12.49 | swigg | If KB and mice were all that great, we would be using them to drive our cars |
| 22:13.05 | JeffM | what? |
| 22:13.07 | swigg | The millitary uses PS controllers to control the drones |
| 22:13.12 | blast007 | some FPS games on consoles *do* support mice and keyboards |
| 22:13.15 | blast007 | just not very many |
| 22:13.16 | JeffM | why do you assume that one input device works well for every possible situation |
| 22:13.29 | JeffM | actualy they use aircraft sticks |
| 22:13.32 | JeffM | AND a keyboard |
| 22:13.55 | swigg | Because it is the best available and it works great for me |
| 22:14.03 | JeffM | ok, good for you |
| 22:14.13 | swigg | and for the consoles too |
| 22:14.18 | JeffM | but assuming that is the end-all-be-all of input devices is delusional |
| 22:14.38 | swigg | well, until something better comes along... |
| 22:14.44 | Delusional | like ME! |
| 22:14.49 | JeffM | or if you are a different human |
| 22:14.56 | swigg | I think the playstation controller is the best you can get |
| 22:15.15 | swigg | fits the hand, you can play for hours |
| 22:15.25 | JeffM | what's the most you've ever spent on a joystick? |
| 22:15.38 | swigg | flight sims |
| 22:15.43 | swigg | old video games |
| 22:15.48 | JeffM | that dosn't asnwer the question ;) |
| 22:16.20 | *** join/#bzflag swigg_ (~swigg@68-119-228-196.dhcp.ahvl.nc.charter.com) |
| 22:16.32 | swigg_ | Planes, right now are being flown with playstation controllers |
| 22:16.39 | JeffM | some are some arn't |
| 22:16.44 | swigg_ | not full size stuff |
| 22:16.48 | JeffM | some use the X52 |
| 22:16.52 | swigg_ | but you sure could |
| 22:17.05 | JeffM | sure you can fly anything with any controller when it has a computer onboard |
| 22:17.18 | JeffM | you can fly a plane with a kenect |
| 22:17.43 | swigg_ | but full size stuff would need regulations, redundency, etc |
| 22:17.48 | JeffM | naw |
| 22:17.52 | swigg_ | do you have a PS controller? |
| 22:17.52 | JeffM | fly by wire has a single input |
| 22:17.56 | JeffM | I do |
| 22:18.02 | swigg_ | have you tried it on BZ? |
| 22:18.06 | JeffM | I have |
| 22:18.15 | JeffM | I prefered the X52 |
| 22:18.40 | *** join/#bzflag swigg__ (~swigg@68-119-228-196.dhcp.ahvl.nc.charter.com) |
| 22:18.41 | swigg__ | I know it's a dumb question to ask that |
| 22:18.44 | *** join/#bzflag schnittchen (~thomas@aftr-37-24-155-49.unity-media.net) |
| 22:18.58 | JeffM | once I had bz working with 2 sticks just like battlezone |
| 22:19.05 | blast007 | Unreal Tournament 3 on the PS3 supported keyboard/mouse |
| 22:19.32 | *** join/#bzflag swigg (~swigg@bzflag/player/Swigg) |
| 22:19.40 | swigg | I need a new ISP |
| 22:19.47 | swigg | I hate that |
| 22:19.47 | JeffM | so if you have 5k to spend on bzflag development, why can't you get an ISP that dosn't drop you every 4.3 min? |
| 22:20.04 | swigg | because it's not my ISP; it is furnished to me |
| 22:20.13 | blast007 | thinks the ISP is fine |
| 22:20.24 | JeffM | then use some of that money to get your own connection |
| 22:20.24 | swigg | and in my area, even if I did get a new one, it would still suck |
| 22:20.30 | JeffM | then move ;) |
| 22:20.41 | blast007 | run fiber to your residence |
| 22:20.42 | swigg | ok... then I will have $4980 left |
| 22:21.07 | JeffM | that'll buy you a programing class at my school |
| 22:21.08 | swigg | I have fiber.... Frosted mini wheats |
| 22:21.09 | blast007 | and then sell access to your neighbors! |
| 22:21.11 | schnittchen | list server down? |
| 22:21.39 | blast007 | nope, just flaky because 1 of the 3 name servers is down |
| 22:21.47 | JeffM | he hasn't remove it yet? |
| 22:22.53 | swigg | Why would Tim resist further promotion of the game? |
| 22:22.55 | blast007 | no, it's still there |
| 22:23.04 | JeffM | we have NO idea |
| 22:23.11 | swigg | Anything that is good for BZ would be good for him |
| 22:23.13 | JeffM | we have asked him many times to do anything |
| 22:23.22 | swigg | tell him that he has to |
| 22:23.26 | JeffM | we have |
| 22:23.44 | JeffM | I don't think he thinks like us |
| 22:24.18 | JeffM | maybe if it was a mobile only social networking game |
| 22:24.18 | swigg | Well, as far as that goes, most of us can't form an opinion as to whether we like him, as no one really knows him |
| 22:24.52 | swigg | Can't you get around him? I mean, he didn't write the thing |
| 22:25.02 | JeffM | he is the copyright holder |
| 22:25.03 | swigg | so prior art might apply |
| 22:25.07 | JeffM | we could fork and rename |
| 22:25.13 | JeffM | prior art is a pattent concept |
| 22:25.17 | swigg | or put a lawyer on him |
| 22:25.21 | JeffM | he was granted copyright by the origonal author |
| 22:25.25 | swigg | heck, I would pay for that |
| 22:25.27 | JeffM | he has the legaly right |
| 22:25.39 | JeffM | bassicly he bought it for 0$ |
| 22:25.45 | swigg | but it is a NPO |
| 22:25.51 | JeffM | he own's it |
| 22:25.56 | JeffM | he has to choose to sell |
| 22:25.56 | blast007 | no it isn't |
| 22:26.04 | JeffM | and yeah it's a private party thing |
| 22:26.06 | swigg | www.bzflag.org? |
| 22:26.06 | JeffM | not an org |
| 22:26.09 | blast007 | there is no formal organization around bzflag |
| 22:26.12 | blast007 | that's a domain |
| 22:26.14 | JeffM | anyone can get a .org |
| 22:26.17 | blast007 | which he also owns |
| 22:26.17 | JeffM | hell I have 2 |
| 22:26.29 | JeffM | there is no company for bzflag, profit or non |
| 22:26.33 | swigg | thendo what you want until he stops you |
| 22:26.47 | JeffM | not everyone wants to leave him for some reason |
| 22:28.16 | JeffM | we had a big talk with him earlyer this year about it |
| 22:28.34 | JeffM | it was not as productive as it could have been |
| 22:28.55 | JeffM | except the part where I learned he dosn't like me |
| 22:28.59 | swigg | Callsigntim riker |
| 22:29.00 | swigg | Email stringtim@rikers |
| 22:29.00 | swigg | First seen2006-11-11 22:20:01 UTC-05 |
| 22:29.00 | swigg | Last seen2013-04-15 09:45:01 UTC-04 |
| 22:30.03 | JeffM | sadly we don't log his mental state |
| 22:32.18 | swigg | Longest online time (session)0d 00h 40min |
| 22:32.18 | swigg | Online time0d 07h 15min |
| 22:32.19 | swigg | Playing time0d 05h 50min |
| 22:33.20 | swigg | JeffM: Maybe he just need to get to know you :P |
| 22:33.27 | JeffM | heh |
| 22:33.37 | JeffM | he's known me for a very long time |
| 22:33.46 | JeffM | techincaly I worked on bzflag before he did |
| 22:34.34 | swigg | well, he doesn't pay for listserv or the main website... Blast has those, right? |
| 22:34.42 | JeffM | yep |
| 22:34.45 | JeffM | he pays for the DNS |
| 22:34.50 | JeffM | and we offered to pay for that for him |
| 22:35.08 | swigg | seems you guys have your hands on the carpet |
| 22:35.37 | JeffM | oh yeah we could fork and KILL bzflag if we wanted to be jerks |
| 22:35.57 | JeffM | heck I could remove him as a project admin on SF |
| 22:36.05 | JeffM | but that'd be stupid |
| 22:36.12 | *** join/#bzflag dcat (~dcat@c-98-244-106-246.hsd1.va.comcast.net) |
| 22:36.15 | swigg | why not take a confidence vote? |
| 22:36.26 | JeffM | because bzflag isn't a democracy |
| 22:36.34 | JeffM | if it was the game would suck more then it does now :) |
| 22:36.50 | JeffM | he owns it, there can be no question of that |
| 22:36.57 | JeffM | if there was then the entire license is invalid |
| 22:37.21 | JeffM | a fork has the same end result of a vote |
| 22:37.27 | swigg | Well, you, trepan, Bullet Catcher and blast are all we need |
| 22:38.16 | JeffM | the first hasn't done anyting on the proejct in a while, BulletCatcher was on the fence, and blast was willing |
| 22:38.18 | swigg | you could swing the server owners to put in -srvmsg to phase out players from the old to the new |
| 22:38.37 | swigg | and move listserv |
| 22:38.56 | JeffM | sure we know exactly what we could do |
| 22:39.08 | swigg | heck, put DNS pointers into the released code |
| 22:39.16 | swigg | to other listservs |
| 22:39.18 | JeffM | that was discussed |
| 22:39.29 | JeffM | changing the dns to one we controll |
| 22:39.33 | JeffM | sillytankgame.com |
| 22:40.40 | swigg | it would sure open the door to opencombat |
| 22:41.03 | JeffM | that's a different game and would probalby not be enjoyed by all bzflag players |
| 22:41.09 | JeffM | and that name is lost to us now |
| 22:41.15 | swigg | Blast mentioned a 'bzflag' mode |
| 22:41.24 | JeffM | sure anything woudl be possible |
| 22:42.47 | swigg | You are still listed on the SF page --> http://sourceforge.net/projects/opencombat/ |
| 22:42.56 | JeffM | yep |
| 22:43.02 | swigg | how is it lost? |
| 22:43.03 | JeffM | you can't remove the last admin |
| 22:43.11 | JeffM | the domain is gone |
| 22:43.24 | swigg | oopsie |
| 22:43.32 | JeffM | I didn't care that much about it |
| 22:43.35 | swigg | that happened to BZ IIRC |
| 22:43.45 | swigg | tim did not renew |
| 22:43.46 | JeffM | no, it's never gone up for sale |
| 22:43.54 | JeffM | he didn't pay and it got shut off |
| 22:44.01 | allejo | polarbearwithguns.com? wasn't that a suggestion for a new game name? |
| 22:44.06 | swigg | that was funny... but not |
| 22:44.12 | JeffM | but he paid before it was put up for acution |
| 22:44.31 | JeffM | a game name, no a company name yes |
| 22:47.10 | allejo | battlezone ctf (BZC!) |
| 22:47.27 | JeffM | and delete the other game modes? |
| 22:47.49 | JeffM | bz has nothing direclty to do with battlezone, so honestly best to loose the connection |
| 22:48.11 | swigg | Combatzone? |
| 22:48.19 | JeffM | why keep zone? |
| 22:48.20 | allejo | koth doesn't have a flag |
| 22:48.22 | swigg | CzFlag |
| 22:48.47 | JeffM | Boom! |
| 22:49.05 | allejo | because battlezone is a classic arcade game and you can argue this is a more modern recreation? |
| 22:49.15 | JeffM | except it isn't |
| 22:49.18 | allejo | czf! |
| 22:49.20 | JeffM | battlezone 2 was |
| 22:49.28 | swigg | If you guys are going to put his feet to the fire, you should do it befoe the 2.6 release |
| 22:49.34 | allejo | there was a battlezone 2? |
| 22:49.38 | JeffM | ohh yeah |
| 22:49.53 | JeffM | there were several revivals of it by atari |
| 22:49.55 | JeffM | they all sucked |
| 22:50.07 | allejo | aw |
| 22:50.10 | JeffM | battlezone just happened to be the ONLY tank game at the time |
| 22:50.27 | JeffM | but yeah you want to move away from an owned property.... |
| 22:51.36 | JeffM | Longshots |
| 22:52.00 | allejo | then my vote is for sillytankgame |
| 22:52.04 | allejo | stg |
| 22:52.45 | JeffM | SuperTuxTanx |
| 22:53.02 | blast007 | really, the hardest part of forking at this point is picking the name :P |
| 22:53.53 | JeffM | then it's all over but the crying |
| 22:54.05 | blast007 | ;D |
| 23:05.47 | blast007 | swigg: and it does seem that the PS4 and maybe the PS3 run a modified FreeBSD. Key word "modified". I'm sure there's very little resemblence to FreeBSD left as far as the end-user or developers are concerned. |
| 23:06.56 | blast007 | and I have run Linux on my PS2, but I'd be hard pressed to get BZFlag to run on there, even if hardware acceleration was possible (there might have been progress with access the GPU from Linux on the PS2, but I haven't kept track) |
| 23:07.24 | blast007 | I think even on the PS3's OtherOS feature you couldn't access the GPU |
| 23:07.52 | sam | you could in a very short timeframe because of a security issue |
| 23:08.59 | blast007 | ? |
| 23:09.30 | blast007 | on the PS3? |
| 23:09.53 | JeffM | still that kind of hacking is not where we want to go |
| 23:10.20 | JeffM | if you TRUELY wanted a console port then go for android and hit one of those set-top box thigns |
| 23:10.27 | JeffM | or steam and do bigpicture |
| 23:11.08 | blast007 | JeffM: I do have my Ouya now ;) |
| 23:11.15 | JeffM | It's possible I'll have something that looks a lot like bzflag that can run on android for my final project in one class |
| 23:11.36 | JeffM | cool,then I'll send you the unity project when I'm done and you can load it on there |
| 23:11.38 | *** join/#bzflag swigg (~swigg@bzflag/player/Swigg) |
| 23:12.10 | JeffM | I was working physics issues out yesterday |
| 23:12.42 | JeffM | still need to much with the sideways grip on the wheel controllers |
| 23:13.04 | JeffM | and get the thing to not flip on hard turns |
| 23:13.10 | *** join/#bzflag swigg (~swigg@bzflag/player/Swigg) |
| 23:26.54 | JeffM | just need to decide if I want to do ramps or not |
| 23:32.30 | JeffM | swigg, just to give you an idea of the costs associated with xbox games, MS charges about 40k$ USD for each patch you push to your end users. |
| 23:34.40 | JeffM | so for us to do a game like that we'd have to ensure it's PERFECT on release |
| 23:34.54 | JeffM | and that means getting dev and test kits for a bunch of people |
| 23:35.17 | JeffM | it's just outside the range of what a small developer can do alone |