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| 00:46.02 | blast007 | TimRiker: have you seen my email about the bad DNS server on the BZFlag domains? |
| 00:46.37 | TimRiker | blast007, yes. a couple of them. pondering |
| 00:50.34 | TimRiker | there still is an active user community, but not much happening on the development front. there are, as always, a ton of things that could be done that would help the community. I don't see my time suddenly becoming more available. Not sure where I'd like things to go. There have been other spin offs and rebuilds that have been tried. We did the whole UI redesign that didn't hit production. I still don't think there's a debian version that |
| 00:50.34 | TimRiker | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:51.49 | blast007 | there's a debian packages of 2.4.2 in experimental right now |
| 00:52.10 | blast007 | will likely get put in wheezy-backports once wheezy is released |
| 00:52.31 | TimRiker | cool. who built it? I've not even looked. |
| 00:52.45 | blast007 | debian games team |
| 00:53.41 | TimRiker | cool |
| 00:53.48 | JeffM | we have been taking care of it |
| 00:54.08 | JeffM | a compatable version is in shipping ubuntu even |
| 00:55.06 | JeffM | we have created roadmaps for where to go, none of them are anything far outside what you and I have spoken of in the past |
| 00:55.21 | JeffM | it's just going to take a different development style to get there |
| 00:55.38 | TimRiker | you mean like being nice to each other? |
| 00:55.48 | JeffM | respectful even ;) |
| 00:56.18 | JeffM | 2.4.0 showed how productive guided managment can be |
| 00:56.25 | JeffM | and 2.4.2 showed that not much happens with out it |
| 00:56.52 | JeffM | that's what I wanted to see, both sides active and passive and active showed to be much more positive with out making anyone mad. |
| 00:58.23 | TimRiker | some of the changes that we'd like to make now need testing on each of the main systems. need a windows, mac, and *nix dev environments. |
| 00:58.44 | TimRiker | as the system grows to be more complex, the rate of change slows. |
| 00:59.17 | TimRiker | one approach is to recode in something portable, but that's a ton of work. |
| 01:00.34 | TimRiker | the state we've been in for years with more active servers than players is tough for a new person to feel comfortable with I think. but it does allow participation. I'm pleased to see the leagues keep things interesting. |
| 01:01.02 | TimRiker | multiple person access to dns and easier central account admin would help. |
| 01:01.36 | TimRiker | you know my thoughts as to a karma system, that have never been implemented. |
| 01:02.40 | TimRiker | there's a ton to consider. I am thinking about it now, looking for feedback. Have there been forum conversations or particular days I should look for in the logs here? |
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| 01:03.14 | TimRiker | Thanks for your thoughts on the issues! |
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| 01:05.33 | Detrimental | Bz could use a global ranking system. with every server on the official dns participating. |
| 01:06.14 | TimRiker | Detrimental, yes. some incentive for all that game time. :) |
| 01:06.16 | JeffM | I'm sorry TimRiker but what are you talking about with regards to "some of the changes we'd like to make" ? |
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| 01:06.45 | TimRiker | JeffM, pick one. we've talked about many changes. |
| 01:07.17 | JeffM | yes and for all the thigns we here develop, we test on the 3 major OSs. |
| 01:07.22 | JeffM | it's a big thing for us. |
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| 01:07.53 | blast007 | TimRiker: what kind of conversations are you looking for? |
| 01:07.56 | TimRiker | nods |
| 01:07.58 | JeffM | perhaps you should read the roadmap we have been working from, http://wiki.bzflag.org/Development_RoadMap |
| 01:08.47 | JeffM | honestly karma is a minor concern compared to getting an authorative server |
| 01:09.28 | blast007 | as for the various environments, I think it's fairly easy to test across them right now. We have two or three developers with Macs currently. As for OS X, we also dropped support for anything less than 10.6, and the plan was to upgrade the OS X platform code to the newer APIs. |
| 01:09.48 | JeffM | we even have a native OSX build now |
| 01:10.02 | blast007 | two or three active developers, that is |
| 01:10.18 | JeffM | heck I even have a mac now :) |
| 01:11.18 | blast007 | And by something more portable, I assuming you mean something like SDL. One problem with that is that you might miss out on special features for a certain operating system. One area in the past was force feedback support. |
| 01:11.38 | blast007 | I think the development version of SDL has better support for force feedback. |
| 01:11.41 | blast007 | and wow, lag |
| 01:11.53 | JeffM | in fact I'd love to use more platform code on the client and server, we are missing out of a bunch of OS services for web access on windows |
| 01:13.23 | JeffM | it just needs to be wraped cleanly and made modular |
| 01:13.51 | TimRiker | what were the fastmap changes? I didn't follow that |
| 01:14.10 | JeffM | fastmap is a plugin that sends the map over HTTP insted of over the in game protocoll |
| 01:14.16 | JeffM | over the same port |
| 01:14.32 | JeffM | it's much faster since it's streamed insted of sending 1000 bytes every lag cycle |
| 01:15.10 | TimRiker | ah. I do recall that now. |
| 01:15.45 | JeffM | one of my goals is to shift administration from in protocoll to HTTP so it's accesable in more places |
| 01:15.50 | JeffM | like mobile devices |
| 01:16.19 | TimRiker | yeah, a general http admin front end would be a Good Thing. |
| 01:16.48 | JeffM | the inteface is complete the webadmin plugin just needs to be ported to the new system |
| 01:17.04 | JeffM | the net interface will need to be threaded on the server soon as well |
| 01:17.10 | JeffM | but that probalby won't be so bad |
| 01:17.18 | JeffM | it'll be similar to the buffering work done in 2.99 |
| 01:17.39 | JeffM | we have solutions for most of the desired changes |
| 01:17.58 | JeffM | a fair amount of disussion and design work does go on here |
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| 01:18.23 | JeffM | that's the direction I want to take it all, more active discussion, more formal plan documents so that people can know where we are and where they can help |
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| 01:18.28 | JeffM | instead of just waiting for patches |
| 01:21.57 | TimRiker | I'll some more reading and get back to everyone. gotta run. |
| 01:23.00 | JeffM | I was waiting for him to mention shortening laser for big worlds |
| 01:23.08 | JeffM | that and karma are the only things he sugests |
| 01:23.20 | Detrimental | lol |
| 01:23.53 | Detrimental | i dont think the primary concern should be karma |
| 01:24.03 | JeffM | and that IE dosn't support javascript |
| 01:24.08 | JeffM | no it should not be |
| 01:24.27 | Detrimental | i think first, working on a central admisinstration system |
| 01:24.36 | JeffM | it's an understandable concern in the current gameplay system, but we should change the gameplay system to be more robust first THEN do a karma/ranking system |
| 01:24.46 | JeffM | I don't know what he means by that |
| 01:24.58 | JeffM | I would not want the project to admin other servers |
| 01:25.18 | JeffM | I'd work on makign the gamestate and network play more robust in order to combat the main cheats now |
| 01:25.27 | JeffM | and make them impossible or dificult to do |
| 01:25.35 | Detrimental | oh |
| 01:25.49 | JeffM | get the networking system up on par with halflife and other more modern games |
| 01:25.56 | Detrimental | did you go to school for networking? |
| 01:26.04 | JeffM | I go to school for many things :) |
| 01:26.22 | JeffM | but the concept is well documented and has been for over a decade |
| 01:26.24 | Detrimental | im starting school for computer science tech, |
| 01:26.27 | JeffM | cool |
| 01:26.38 | Detrimental | networking then probibly cs |
| 01:27.04 | JeffM | a more authorative server would limit most cheats to the ream of aim/dodge bots instead of what we have now |
| 01:27.27 | JeffM | at that point then we'd be able to look at play quality and see what needs to be done |
| 01:29.19 | JeffM | the 2.4.0 release showed what we could really do, and I was impressed |
| 01:29.35 | JeffM | I think with more active management we could have that all the time |
| 01:29.59 | blast007 | as for a somewhat global administration team, there was something like that years back |
| 01:30.02 | blast007 | BZCops |
| 01:30.16 | JeffM | yeah, sever have been proposed, I proposed one of them |
| 01:30.21 | Detrimental | i think i remember that. we had it impliminted on viper.pimpi |
| 01:30.42 | JeffM | I don't mind providing more services for server owners, I would not make it required |
| 01:30.55 | JeffM | but it should be manned by people NOT in the project |
| 01:31.01 | blast007 | it's hard to do right since rules fluctuate so much between servers |
| 01:31.05 | JeffM | yeah |
| 01:31.18 | blast007 | and I think what we have right now handles it well enough |
| 01:31.29 | blast007 | perhaps just a better group management system |
| 01:31.48 | blast007 | and the HTTP management tools |
| 01:32.03 | JeffM | if we had more centraized services for people I'd desegnate somoene to be the server community manager who would work with the owners and admins to ensure that we were providing good and fair services |
| 01:32.25 | JeffM | yeah group managment needs to be cleaned up, but that dosn't imply an specific ruleset to the users of the groups |
| 01:32.34 | JeffM | that's what I'd be leery of getting into |
| 01:32.50 | JeffM | because if we are going to tell the servers what to do, we should just run them 100% |
| 01:33.13 | Detrimental | a more centralized admin sys would simplify admining servers. |
| 01:33.30 | JeffM | well the question is why do you run more then one server? |
| 01:33.34 | JeffM | to host multiple maps? |
| 01:33.58 | Detrimental | yes, but what about a set of basic rules that all servers have to comply with |
| 01:34.24 | JeffM | I'd not go there, because I don't think we have the right to tell someone else how they have to use the software we provide |
| 01:35.03 | JeffM | I don't mind providing an optional framework that a server owner can opt INTO, but I would not define specific rules for software use |
| 01:35.17 | blast007 | we do have some *basic* rules about the use of our public services, but they don't go so far as controlling how you admin your servers |
| 01:35.21 | JeffM | yeah |
| 01:35.30 | JeffM | mostly we controll how you use our services |
| 01:35.42 | JeffM | it's a slipery slope telling people what they can and can't do |
| 01:35.43 | Detrimental | maybe like a 'official' server list with them rules applied and a seprate server list for others |
| 01:35.57 | Detrimental | i understand that |
| 01:35.58 | JeffM | if we did that, then I'd have the project run the official ones 100% |
| 01:36.07 | JeffM | not have third parties provide them |
| 01:36.14 | blast007 | then have "official" and "community" servers |
| 01:36.24 | JeffM | that is a vaild way to go that I think would work but you have to go all the way, no middle ground |
| 01:36.46 | JeffM | it's easy to make people mad in that middle ground, specialy when different parties have different expectations |
| 01:37.17 | Detrimental | thats opensource for ya |
| 01:37.18 | JeffM | I have writen proposal for both types of systems in the past and examined them at lenght |
| 01:37.20 | JeffM | yeah |
| 01:37.38 | JeffM | you don't want to set yoruself up to turn into a group argument :) |
| 01:37.55 | Detrimental | but still need to progress. |
| 01:38.01 | JeffM | yes |
| 01:38.20 | JeffM | thats why I'd start with finding out what services our current server owners are looking for |
| 01:38.25 | JeffM | and building from there |
| 01:38.34 | JeffM | takes longer but ends up being better |
| 01:38.45 | JeffM | a better group system would be a good start |
| 01:38.55 | JeffM | then we'd see how well people do at self managment |
| 01:39.04 | JeffM | after that we see how many servers are well managed |
| 01:39.31 | JeffM | if it's a wide array of poorly managed servers we create a facility for an opt in central management system |
| 01:39.36 | JeffM | if that works, great done |
| 01:39.57 | JeffM | if that dosn't work then we have the option fo turning that opt in system into the set of "official servers" |
| 01:40.07 | JeffM | and push the rest to a different list |
| 01:40.17 | Detrimental | it is a hard thing to do, there needs to be a centralized admin sys, but each server has their own set of admins |
| 01:40.29 | JeffM | and come up with clear rules about how a community member can donate service machiens to the official pool |
| 01:40.34 | JeffM | yes |
| 01:40.41 | JeffM | that's why you start with opt in |
| 01:40.51 | JeffM | you let server owners choose to use the central admins |
| 01:41.04 | JeffM | and you set the central system up to vet admins for inclusion |
| 01:41.19 | Detrimental | and most would, i think. |
| 01:41.31 | JeffM | that slow process is what changes the community from it's current set of anything goes admins to providing a "mainline" that you can compare servers with |
| 01:41.34 | JeffM | some would |
| 01:41.44 | JeffM | you have to do it slow |
| 01:41.56 | JeffM | if you try to push it on people it won't work |
| 01:42.19 | JeffM | so that would be how I'd do it in stages so we could see what aspects worked |
| 01:42.39 | JeffM | and make it a more organic change for the community then someone saying "play this way!" |
| 01:42.57 | Detrimental | yea |
| 01:43.18 | JeffM | but again, it has to go with core software changes to make the game more suited to internet play |
| 01:43.21 | Detrimental | i understand that, things been one way for so long. |
| 01:43.26 | JeffM | yeah |
| 01:43.31 | blast007 | I don't see a *need* for a centralized admin system. Centralized management of things that servers use, sure. But not the administration itself. |
| 01:43.47 | JeffM | yeah I am not sure it would be needed as a core thing if the game was fixed up |
| 01:44.13 | blast007 | maybe some centralized banlists that people could opt in to and/or contribute to. |
| 01:44.15 | JeffM | an option to make it easy for people to provide a server to the player with out the need to manage an admin team.. sure |
| 01:45.04 | JeffM | I think also if we work on making the server able to host more games in the same instance that will cut down on hosting problems |
| 01:45.20 | JeffM | make each server host N games in rooms like IRC |
| 01:45.32 | JeffM | so you can have multiple maps runing at a time on the same port |
| 01:45.44 | JeffM | you just have to pick what one to play in when you join |
| 01:45.47 | blast007 | and support live map changes |
| 01:45.50 | JeffM | yeah |
| 01:45.53 | Detrimental | on the same port? |
| 01:45.55 | JeffM | sure |
| 01:46.03 | JeffM | just add a gameID to the join mechanism |
| 01:46.09 | JeffM | and thread the server |
| 01:46.26 | blast007 | don't forget hats |
| 01:46.34 | JeffM | after we have the paypal set up |
| 01:46.37 | blast007 | ;) |
| 01:47.19 | Detrimental | what is the min hardware and bandwitch i would need to host a map? |
| 01:47.30 | JeffM | right now depends on how many players |
| 01:47.39 | blast007 | end goal for the services is to have the core code/data not dependent on forum software |
| 01:47.43 | Detrimental | just say around 20 |
| 01:47.55 | JeffM | I don't know the specific but it's not much |
| 01:47.59 | Detrimental | average |
| 01:48.05 | blast007 | 20 you might need a T1 or equivilent |
| 01:48.14 | JeffM | yeah at least a meg up would be good |
| 01:48.22 | Detrimental | ok |
| 01:48.24 | JeffM | that's probalby too many for most DSL upstreams |
| 01:48.43 | JeffM | but it should be doable in a decent VPS |
| 01:48.46 | Detrimental | im getiting like 20 down 1.2 up |
| 01:49.04 | blast007 | a $15/month VPS would do it better |
| 01:49.06 | JeffM | it's the upstream that matters |
| 01:49.07 | JeffM | yeah |
| 01:49.18 | JeffM | you are the host so what is important is you sending out messages |
| 01:49.19 | Detrimental | ok i was just curious. |
| 01:49.58 | Detrimental | yea. i know that i just didnt know how fast would give 20 players good gamplay |
| 01:50.06 | JeffM | it depends |
| 01:50.29 | JeffM | many things affect the packet count, your acceleration settings, top speeds, player count, shot count |
| 01:50.30 | blast007 | clients -> server is only N updates, but server -> clients is N * (N-1) updates |
| 01:50.33 | Detrimental | im out in the country so im lucky i got the internet speeds i have |
| 01:51.04 | Detrimental | i will do some reading into it. |
| 01:54.53 | JeffM | usualy you just have to try |
| 01:59.51 | Detrimental | my kernels done compiling |
| 02:18.31 | khonkhortisan | so total is N + N * (N - 1) |
| 02:21.13 | khonkhortisan | I should be able to wear a ring on a non-ring finger, having no effect from the ring, but affecting how much weight I can carry. |
| 02:29.17 | khonkhortisan | huh. walked all around the stairs before I found it. |
| 02:29.50 | khonkhortisan | wow 7 doors opening in 3 turns in minetown |
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| 02:34.20 | jcp | <TimRiker> yeah, a general http admin front end would be a Good Thing. <- I did write an entire web interface three years ago... |
| 02:35.02 | jeffm | how did it get the current players and chat to them? |
| 02:36.14 | jeffm | or do you mean starting and stoping servers kind of admin? |
| 02:38.33 | I_Died_Once | tell him to get his self back in here and lets gang up on him |
| 02:39.00 | jeffm | being mean to him will not be productive |
| 02:39.39 | jeffm | if you want to, sending him an email about how you feel the project is working and your opinion on all this may help him understand |
| 02:44.27 | jcp | jeffm: what? |
| 02:44.35 | jcp | it did nearly everything |
| 02:44.49 | jeffm | cool |
| 02:45.06 | jeffm | did it use a plugin to connect to the servers or connect over TCP? |
| 02:45.12 | jcp | You could monitor logs, start/stop servers, create new servers and upload maps, send messages to users |
| 02:45.14 | jcp | Plugin |
| 02:45.59 | jcp | (I did write a separate system at one point that used TCP, but it was an unrelated project) |
| 02:46.09 | jeffm | yeah a plugin would be better |
| 02:46.55 | jeffm | Im not sure starting/stoping what what he had in mind, but it's hard to say with him |
| 02:47.03 | blast007 | how does a server plugin start a server? |
| 02:47.11 | jeffm | SCIENCE! |
| 02:47.21 | jeffm | but I assume that was handled by his web service that he interfaced with |
| 02:47.22 | jcp | Ha |
| 02:47.29 | blast007 | ;) |
| 02:47.33 | jcp | blast007: It wasn't /only/ a plugin |
| 02:47.37 | blast007 | hehe |
| 02:47.37 | jeffm | aka the taco machine! |
| 02:47.54 | blast007 | taco machine would be awesome |
| 02:48.59 | jeffm | webadmin just needs to have it's template code finished off then it should be ready |
| 02:49.54 | jcp | Is there a working prototype? |
| 02:50.11 | blast007 | it's past prototype |
| 02:50.28 | jeffm | it was part of 2.99 |
| 02:50.31 | jeffm | and worked fine |
| 02:50.41 | jeffm | the HTTP stuff changed in 2.4 and I started the back port work |
| 02:50.48 | jeffm | it just needs to be finished |
| 02:51.15 | jeffm | it uses the internal HTTP system, so it is ONLY a plugin no extra apps or ports |
| 02:51.36 | jcp | Yeah, I recall hearing about it |
| 02:52.18 | jeffm | the current stuff is all checked in |
| 02:54.33 | jeffm | the templates are probably crap but you get what you pay for |
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| 11:53.09 | alezakos | Another wiki page that needs deletion / account that needs banning: http://wiki.bzflag.org/User:Johnmarcuis |
| 13:44.23 | blast007 | alezakos: I had a flag picker widget from an old attempt at a hosting system interface. Think that would work for this, or should I do something different? http://static.bzexcess.com/hosting/ |
| 13:58.39 | alezakos | This or something similar would work |
| 13:59.06 | alezakos | Even though custom flags are not supported at that specific implementation, and you can't forbid specific flags |
| 13:59.55 | alezakos | There is also a js plugin that makes fancy lists (http://harvesthq.github.com/chosen) |
| 14:00.19 | alezakos | Even though there's no official support for mootools, there's a fork |
| 14:09.33 | blast007 | that seems like it would be more cumbersome to use |
| 15:09.05 | Constitution | ~lart tupone |
| 15:09.05 | ibot | chops tupone in half with a free AOL CD |
| 15:11.52 | ibot | cuts off alezakos's head with a halberd that could have been a little bit sharper, courtesy of alezakos |
| 15:20.04 | Constitution | actually, I recant that |
| 15:20.08 | Constitution | ~lart JeffM |
| 15:20.08 | ibot | pulls out a ClueBat (tm) and thwaps JeffM |
| 15:20.13 | Constitution | http://bzflag.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/bzflag/branches/v2_0branch/bzflag/src/bzfs/bzfsPlugins.cxx?r1=15923&r2=15922&pathrev=15923 |
| 15:35.00 | Notify | 03BZFlag:macsforme * 22599 (trunk/bzflag/include/bzfsAPI.h trunk/bzflag/plugins/plugin_utils/plugin_utils.cpp and 2 others): Finish what was started in revision 15923 by adding PLUGINS permission in other places besides just where we check if a player has the permission. Gives plugins access to it and includes it in +ALL in the groupdb. |
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| 17:07.38 | Constitution | so does the bz_eGetPlayerMotto not have a way of identifying the player joining? |
| 17:14.54 | Constitution | seems there's no way to set the motto on a per-player basis if that is the case |
| 17:16.21 | JeffM | dosn' |
| 17:16.27 | JeffM | it dosnt' have the playerID? |
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| 17:17.34 | JeffM | you would have been so proud of me yesterday Constitution I was positive as hell! |
| 17:18.16 | short_circuit | =~) |
| 17:18.18 | JeffM | and yeah that message is jacked up, it should have a player record on it |
| 17:18.24 | JeffM | think anyone has used it yet? |
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| 17:25.50 | Constitution | JeffM: I noticed :) |
| 17:26.11 | Constitution | he seemed conventionally non-committal |
| 17:26.35 | JeffM | I'm not sure what he thinks is best for the project |
| 17:27.01 | JeffM | or maybe he just likes to have control but not use it |
| 17:27.12 | JeffM | it's very confusing to me |
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| 17:27.55 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 17:27.59 | JeffM | I have a fix for your motto problem, it'll be commited shortly |
| 17:28.12 | JeffM | it'll be a new V2 event |
| 17:28.23 | TimRiker | blast007, the cia plugin on the wiki needs to be disabled. not sure if cia will ever come back, but the emails are bouncing now. |
| 17:28.29 | Constitution | thanks? is it possible to get the BZID? |
| 17:28.42 | Constitution | at that point in the join process |
| 17:28.53 | JeffM | Constitution, it'll have a full player record, so evertthing we have |
| 17:28.57 | JeffM | and yes BZID is done by then |
| 17:30.04 | Constitution | great |
| 17:34.09 | JeffM | we don't call add player untill auth is complete |
| 17:34.22 | JeffM | add player does all the banning so it has to be done by then |
| 17:37.52 | JeffM | TimRiker, I belive joevano can also take care of it, possibly also BulletCatcher |
| 17:38.00 | JeffM | the 3 of them have been managing services |
| 17:39.30 | Notify | 03BZFlag:JeffM2501 * 22600 (trunk/bzflag/include/bzfsAPI.h trunk/bzflag/src/bzfs/bzfs.cxx): add bz_GetPlayerMottoData_V2 that has a player record to go with what player is requesting the motto |
| 17:39.39 | Constitution | ~JeffM2501++ |
| 17:39.54 | JeffM | Constitution, there ya go, just cast your data pointer to a V2 object and you should be fine. |
| 17:40.03 | Constitution | thanks much |
| 17:40.04 | JeffM | you will need to ensure that you are running on a newer server |
| 17:40.10 | JeffM | or crashies will happen |
| 17:40.13 | Constitution | the only thing the other one seemed good for was to zero it out |
| 17:40.17 | blast007 | I took care of the wiki notifier thing I think ;) |
| 17:40.30 | JeffM | the idea was to be able to filter it arbitrarilay |
| 17:40.33 | JeffM | remove bad words, etc.. |
| 17:40.45 | JeffM | for that you didn't need to know who it was for |
| 17:40.58 | JeffM | but I can see use in knowing who it is so you can force it to be something |
| 17:41.08 | Constitution | ah |
| 17:42.24 | blast007 | JeffM: main issue is that you can't do a web request to set a motto as the user is joining |
| 17:42.38 | JeffM | interesting |
| 17:42.48 | JeffM | yeah you can only block |
| 17:42.52 | JeffM | that may be resolvable |
| 17:42.59 | JeffM | there is a message that sets the motto I belive |
| 17:43.06 | blast007 | there was in 2.99.x |
| 17:43.11 | Constitution | there are other uses for it |
| 17:43.15 | blast007 | 2.4.x has it as part of the MsgEnter |
| 17:44.03 | JeffM | ahh |
| 17:44.05 | JeffM | suck |
| 17:44.32 | JeffM | well we should make all the player data be resettable in messages |
| 17:44.33 | blast007 | or maybe that's not the message.. let me dig some more |
| 17:44.42 | JeffM | I think you are right |
| 17:48.26 | blast007 | yeah, motto is sent from the server as part of MsgAddPlayer |
| 17:48.43 | JeffM | yeah it's only packed there |
| 17:48.43 | blast007 | (and sent *to* the server with MsgEnter from the client that wants to join) |
| 17:48.53 | JeffM | well we'll have to change that at proto break then |
| 17:48.54 | blast007 | 2.99.x had a generic metadata system |
| 17:48.57 | JeffM | yeah |
| 17:49.02 | JeffM | misses that code |
| 17:49.12 | blast007 | and it kinda worked |
| 17:49.12 | JeffM | but it was more useful with scripts |
| 17:49.56 | JeffM | those kinda changes and the message buffering stuff are what I think we should do first in a proto break |
| 17:50.04 | JeffM | then we can thread the server |
| 17:52.52 | blast007 | do you think it'd be worth looking at something like enet instead? http://enet.bespin.org/ |
| 17:53.23 | blast007 | though I suppose that wouldn't work with out dual-purpose TCP port |
| 17:53.26 | blast007 | our* |
| 17:57.58 | alezakos | Someone please add #define bz_perm_clientQuery "clientQuery" on include/bzfsAPI.h (line 305) - forgot to add it on my patch |
| 18:03.16 | alezakos | (I meant after line 303) |
| 18:13.59 | JeffM | blast007, I don't bleive they thread anything for you, so all it woudl do would UDP only us |
| 18:14.19 | JeffM | it may offer other advantages but I'd like to get our current networking isolated first |
| 18:14.24 | JeffM | then it'd be easier to replace |
| 18:16.01 | JeffM | if we were UDP only then the TCP on the same port would be for HTTP only so it'd still work out |
| 18:17.43 | blast007 | JeffM: yeah, but then we'd still have to have our own network code |
| 18:17.51 | blast007 | so less of a real advantage |
| 18:18.00 | JeffM | it could be wraped up in a lib |
| 18:18.07 | JeffM | or we could use a third party HTTP Lib then |
| 18:18.13 | JeffM | since it could manage it's own connections |
| 18:18.25 | JeffM | it would defenatly be something to evaluate at some point |
| 18:19.13 | blast007 | moreso once people are done using Ubuntu 10.04 LTS (that has an older incompatible version of libenet) |
| 18:19.15 | JeffM | alezakos, you fired! ;) |
| 18:19.33 | Notify | 03BZFlag:JeffM2501 * 22601 trunk/bzflag/include/bzfsAPI.h: add clientQuery permission |
| 18:19.35 | alezakos | You mean you're fired? |
| 18:19.46 | alezakos | Or whom did I fire? |
| 18:19.50 | alezakos | doesn't understand |
| 18:20.01 | JeffM | why has nobody seen A Bugs Life? |
| 18:20.07 | JeffM | is old |
| 18:21.07 | JeffM | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK4t1377ZK4 |
| 18:21.27 | blast007 | "Don't look at the light!" "I can't help it.. it's so beautiful!" *zaaap* or am I thinking of the wrong movie? ;) |
| 18:21.36 | JeffM | you sir are not |
| 18:21.41 | JeffM | that makes you old too |
| 18:21.46 | blast007 | hehehe |
| 18:22.52 | JeffM | but on the networking we'd have to see how popular web admin was, and how many are using it just because it dosn't need another port to be configured. |
| 18:23.07 | JeffM | there are solutions ether way if we want to change to a UDP only solution |
| 18:24.39 | blast007 | cool think about enet is that it builds reliability and in-order-delivery on top of UDP when you need it |
| 18:25.11 | blast007 | but that's not really different from our current TCP/UDP combo except maybe a slight bit less overhead |
| 18:25.28 | JeffM | yeah I've used it before |
| 18:25.35 | JeffM | it's my personal choice for C++ net libs |
| 18:25.55 | JeffM | lidgrin is very similar in .net |
| 18:26.18 | JeffM | I like that enet has channels too |
| 18:26.30 | JeffM | so we could split the messages into lanes that would not block each other |
| 18:26.40 | JeffM | postion updates on one, chat on another, |
| 18:27.06 | blast007 | would channels also assist with hosting multiple worlds per server instance? |
| 18:27.23 | JeffM | no |
| 18:27.27 | blast007 | k |
| 18:27.28 | JeffM | they are channels on the server to player link |
| 18:27.34 | blast007 | ah |
| 18:27.39 | JeffM | for multiple worlds we'd have a link per player |
| 18:28.20 | JeffM | it's so that if you send say a big chat message and then a small player update, the update can go out before the chat message is sent |
| 18:28.33 | JeffM | each channel has it's own ordering list |
| 18:29.00 | JeffM | so the chat channel can be sent reliable and ordered, the score channel can also be reliable and orderd, and the update channel unreliable and unordered |
| 18:29.09 | JeffM | and they will all process like they were seperate connections |
| 18:29.29 | JeffM | multi world mostly just needs changes on the server |
| 18:29.38 | JeffM | and then a mechanism to pick the world on join |
| 18:29.50 | JeffM | after that we just ahve to pick what we send to the cleints on each world instance |
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| 21:03.15 | Constitution | testing a plugin on trinity.fairserve.net:5154 if anyone's interested |
| 21:11.03 | Detrimental | what you testing |
| 21:12.51 | Constitution | statistics/ranking plugin |
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| 21:34.51 | JeffM | blast007, one thing we could do for the motto web request thing is let the API delay the sending of AddPlayer |
| 21:35.01 | JeffM | it's allready delayed a bit |
| 21:35.39 | JeffM | I could make an event that notified when auth is complete and we would want to call add player, then the plugin could return a value to allow it or not |
| 21:35.48 | JeffM | and then a function that called it later from the API |
| 21:35.53 | JeffM | it'd get the effect you wanted |
| 21:36.47 | JeffM | it'd jsut be a new flag in the auth state for delay |
| 21:54.18 | blast007 | JeffM: that's a posibility |
| 21:54.49 | blast007 | for the next breaking release, I'd be interested in looking over the entire join handshake |
| 21:54.51 | JeffM | we have already delayed for the web hit on auth |
| 21:54.55 | JeffM | ohh yeah |
| 21:55.01 | JeffM | it really needs to be broken up |
| 21:55.13 | blast007 | make it possible to give better feedback to the client during a join |
| 21:55.14 | JeffM | and the ability to send all the parts out multiple times to change data everywhere |
| 21:55.22 | JeffM | yeah |
| 21:55.39 | blast007 | "sending world" "checking authentication" "reticulating splines" |
| 21:55.42 | JeffM | right now there is a big pause while auth, host lookup, and ban lists are checked |
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| 21:56.00 | JeffM | after add player, the rest is pretty broken up, world, vars, etc... |
| 21:56.23 | JeffM | I reviewed up to the addPlayer part a couple weeks ago |
| 21:56.28 | blast007 | the hostban glitch needs to be looked into as well, and that could likely be fixed in just a point release |
| 21:56.33 | JeffM | may have a C# implemntation that hosts that far |
| 21:56.43 | blast007 | think I need a higher latency link to trigger it though |
| 21:57.05 | blast007 | I always see that I'm rejected when I hostban myself |
| 21:57.33 | JeffM | that's probably part of the disconnect method, I think it kicks before flushing |
| 21:57.55 | JeffM | better would be flag the net connect as flush the kill with a message buffer |
| 21:57.55 | blast007 | just strange that it works *some* of the time |
| 21:58.22 | JeffM | I did it in a thread where the worker for the client was flagged and would send all messages left then disco |
| 21:58.31 | JeffM | regardless of what the main server was doing |
| 21:58.51 | JeffM | so the gameserver had already released the connection and it was up to the thread to dispose of it |
| 21:58.56 | JeffM | but that may mean smart pointers |
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