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| 02:19.44 | jeffm | what was wrong with his mac build? |
| 02:19.53 | jeffm | and why would he have to edit math.h? |
| 02:21.38 | blast007 | he wouldn't have to |
| 02:21.53 | jeffm | yeah config should have anything missing |
| 02:22.04 | jeffm | what OS was he trying to build under? |
| 02:22.32 | blast007 | 10.8 :) |
| 02:22.47 | jeffm | how did he get past the autogen and configure steps? |
| 02:22.53 | blast007 | no idea |
| 02:23.09 | jeffm | configure can't find GCC on an normal Xcode install |
| 02:23.13 | blast007 | allejo: you still around? |
| 02:23.18 | jeffm | since it doesn't use gcc anymore |
| 02:23.34 | jeffm | and it's not going to make a good config file if it can't find stuff :) |
| 02:24.33 | jeffm | and fink/macports will jack you up |
| 02:25.10 | blast007 | he didn't have either of those |
| 02:25.18 | jeffm | you can probably get around auto tools by using the tarbal |
| 02:25.27 | blast007 | he said it's a clean install of 10.8, with Xcode 4.4 |
| 02:26.26 | jeffm | making a clean 10.8 is very hard, you have to upgrade from 10.7 to 10.8 then redo your recovery partition and then redo a net install |
| 02:26.55 | jeffm | no CDs anymore |
| 02:29.37 | jeffm | a clean install won't find lib crypto and curl |
| 02:29.50 | jeffm | so he had to do something |
| 02:43.41 | jeffm | yeah I can't get past the autoconf, was able to re-add the missing libs |
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| 04:45.16 | allejo | blast007, i'm here now |
| 04:47.48 | allejo | jeffm, I booted from my 10.7 disk, wiped my hard drive, and updated from there. and then waited for 10.8 to be released. i simply copied my apps and documents and stuff from my backups |
| 04:48.15 | jeffm | how did you get the Xcode project to find auto tools then? |
| 04:48.22 | allejo | i'm using command line |
| 04:48.23 | jeffm | cis 10.7 doesn't come with gcc |
| 04:48.35 | jeffm | same question, gcc is not installed on the command line by xcode |
| 04:48.45 | allejo | you have to install the commandline tools from xcode |
| 04:48.50 | allejo | that includes gcc iirc |
| 04:48.56 | jeffm | nope |
| 04:49.02 | jeffm | xcode4 doesn't use gcc anymore |
| 04:49.04 | jeffm | it uses lvm |
| 04:49.10 | jeffm | I have the command line tools, no gcc |
| 04:49.34 | jeffm | where did you get the commad line tools? |
| 04:50.01 | allejo | I had Xcode 4.2 or 4.3 installed on 10.7 and then when I updated to 10.8, i updated to Xcode 4.4 but had to reinstall the command line tools |
| 04:50.15 | allejo | if I run gcc I get "i686-apple-darwin11-llvm-gcc-4.2: no input files" |
| 04:50.27 | jeffm | how did you reinstall the command line tools? |
| 04:50.47 | allejo | Xcode 4.4 > Preferences > Downloads |
| 04:51.16 | allejo | I did nothing else except autoconf, automake, and libtool which i compiled from source or got a binary |
| 04:52.00 | jeffm | you built your own auto tools? |
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| 04:52.57 | jeffm | the command line package says it installs LLVM |
| 04:53.01 | jeffm | not gcc |
| 04:53.13 | jeffm | our build system was never made to run on llvm |
| 04:53.38 | jeffm | it's probably not going to work until we redo it as a native Xcode proejct |
| 04:54.15 | jeffm | did you have to add anything to a path environment variable? |
| 04:55.05 | allejo | yes i did except for autoconf, i think, which i found an installer for. and so far i have done nothing except for a change for the MAXFLOAT issue |
| 04:55.46 | jeffm | autoconf makes the conf file that should set that |
| 04:56.14 | jeffm | that's what makes think your autoconf is not great |
| 04:56.36 | jeffm | but really we can't say you are doing a "normal" build if you had to build your own auto tools and install them |
| 04:58.00 | allejo | have you been able to compile under 10.8? |
| 04:58.33 | jeffm | nope |
| 04:58.40 | jeffm | can't even build under 10.87 |
| 04:58.42 | jeffm | 10.7 |
| 04:58.54 | jeffm | all our builds are under 10.6 |
| 04:58.59 | allejo | I built under 10.7 perfectly fine via commandline |
| 04:59.04 | jeffm | because Xcode 3 uses gcc |
| 04:59.10 | jeffm | in what xcode? |
| 04:59.17 | jeffm | 3 or 4? |
| 04:59.20 | allejo | 4 |
| 04:59.26 | jeffm | 4.what? |
| 04:59.39 | allejo | I believe I had 4.2 on 10.7 |
| 04:59.51 | jeffm | and did you have to build your own auto tools? |
| 05:00.15 | allejo | the only issue i've had so far with 10.8 is the fact that FSFindFolder is deprecated. and yes i did. after I built them I found installers for some |
| 05:01.07 | jeffm | yeah that's not a viable build system then |
| 05:02.25 | jeffm | maybe one day we'll redo the build system |
| 05:02.42 | allejo | what do you mean by viable build system? |
| 05:03.19 | jeffm | the build system for an application should not require you to have to compile other things |
| 05:03.51 | jeffm | or magically know where to put them on the OS |
| 05:04.09 | jeffm | can you even install the auto tools with out going into hidden folders? |
| 05:04.37 | allejo | Hmmm are the auto tools installed with Xcode on 10.6? or how did you get them? |
| 05:04.49 | jeffm | I don't have them |
| 05:04.52 | allejo | I wasn't aware the auto tools needed hidden folders |
| 05:05.34 | jeffm | auto tools are installed by default in the Xcode before they changed to llvm |
| 05:05.39 | jeffm | IIRC |
| 05:05.53 | jeffm | thats why we made the Xcode project just call the build script |
| 05:06.05 | allejo | ah that makes sense |
| 05:06.16 | jeffm | you didn't use macports or fink did you? |
| 05:06.35 | allejo | Nope. I stayed from all of that after our last discussion |
| 05:07.20 | jeffm | why are you trying to build? what feature do you want? |
| 05:08.56 | allejo | no feature in particular. i have my 2.4.1 build running perfectly fine. i'm just pointing out the fact that i could compile before but now i can't due to FSFindFolder being deprecated |
| 05:09.06 | jeffm | ok |
| 05:09.23 | jeffm | since we can't even build on 10.7 it's not a big deal :) |
| 05:10.16 | allejo | so from my understanding, 10.6 is the only version of os x that will ever build bz mac binaries because it has the auto tools installed automatically? |
| 05:10.27 | jeffm | yes |
| 05:10.35 | allejo | unless xcode installs the auto tools once again in the future? |
| 05:10.44 | jeffm | until we move off of the linux based build system |
| 05:10.52 | jeffm | they won't |
| 05:10.54 | jeffm | they don't need it |
| 05:11.08 | jeffm | since they moved off of gcc and everyone has to use xcode |
| 05:11.21 | jeffm | same thing for the signing stuff, you need to use Xcode for that |
| 05:11.34 | jeffm | apple wants everyone to build using the same tools |
| 05:12.06 | allejo | wait how does the 2.4.2 binary run on 10.8? can it still find the ~/Application Support/BZFlag folder or does it revert to ~/.bzf? |
| 05:12.44 | jeffm | the function is probably still in the bins for compatibility, they probably just removed it from the headers |
| 05:12.47 | jeffm | to get people to change |
| 05:13.01 | jeffm | or they moved it |
| 05:13.02 | blast007 | it's "deprecated", not removed |
| 05:13.11 | jeffm | that makes sense then |
| 05:13.26 | blast007 | throws a warning in the compile |
| 05:13.28 | jeffm | so we'd just have to find it's replaement |
| 05:13.28 | allejo | deprecated as in it's still there but it won't be in the future? |
| 05:13.32 | jeffm | yes |
| 05:13.44 | jeffm | is it an error or a warning? |
| 05:13.48 | allejo | it's a warning |
| 05:13.54 | allejo | i'm building a debug build |
| 05:14.10 | jeffm | don't do that :) |
| 05:14.31 | jeffm | or find the replacement function and call that |
| 05:14.34 | allejo | according to BulletCatcher, an article said that NSSearchPathForDirectoriesInDomains() replaced FSFindFolder |
| 05:14.49 | jeffm | so just call that |
| 05:14.54 | allejo | different parameters for that function i think |
| 05:15.04 | jeffm | so? |
| 05:16.05 | jeffm | change the code to call what is needed |
| 05:17.21 | allejo | what I find odd is that when google NSSearchPathForDirectoriesInDomains() I only seem to find iOS related questions and notes |
| 05:17.55 | jeffm | probably the same function |
| 05:19.55 | allejo | off to google |
| 05:20.04 | jeffm | apple should have API docs |
| 05:20.30 | jeffm | probalby in xcode |
| 05:33.16 | jeffm | well I do get further if I build my own auto tools, that's something at least |
| 05:35.35 | allejo | where are you stuck at now? |
| 05:36.13 | jeffm | error about the use of a c99 hex floating point constant in global.h |
| 05:38.02 | jeffm | that's probably maxfloat |
| 05:38.23 | allejo | yea that's where I was last night |
| 05:38.55 | allejo | BulletCatcher's little hack allowed me to compile further. I had to put "#undef MAXFLOAT" before "ifdef" |
| 05:38.57 | jeffm | wonder where it puts it's config.h |
| 05:39.58 | jeffm | agh doesn't look like it made one |
| 05:40.06 | jeffm | that would be autoconf failing |
| 05:41.00 | allejo | so the missing config.h causes the MAXFLOAT issue? |
| 05:41.07 | jeffm | maybe |
| 05:41.18 | jeffm | config.h is where system specific flags are supposed to go |
| 05:41.32 | jeffm | it's what turns on and off stuff that a compiler does or does not support |
| 05:41.39 | jeffm | for windows we use a predefined one |
| 05:41.46 | jeffm | but everyone else is supposed to generate one |
| 05:41.55 | jeffm | global.h includes common.h |
| 05:41.59 | jeffm | common.h includes config.h |
| 05:42.20 | jeffm | and I don't see a config.h that would be used |
| 05:43.46 | jeffm | or maybe I'm in the wrong dir |
| 05:44.24 | allejo | i don't have a config.h in my directory either. it's supposed to be in the root of the bz folder, right? |
| 05:44.35 | jeffm | it would be in include |
| 05:44.44 | jeffm | and it is, I was in the wrong tree |
| 05:45.03 | allejo | include/config.h? |
| 05:46.04 | jeffm | yeah |
| 05:46.11 | allejo | i have that |
| 05:46.36 | jeffm | good |
| 05:48.31 | jeffm | looks like we'll need a HAS_MAXFLOAT or something |
| 05:58.51 | jeffm | or we tell configure that c99 is ok |
| 06:08.34 | jeffm | yeah we'll have to ask BulletCatcher if he knows how to enable c99 builds in configure |
| 06:10.40 | allejo | what is c99? |
| 06:11.12 | jeffm | a version of the C language |
| 06:11.26 | jeffm | it probably needs like C++03 or something |
| 06:11.51 | jeffm | whatever one they allowed the c99 style float constants |
| 06:12.43 | allejo | makes sense |
| 06:13.56 | jeffm | ether that or we stop using MAX_FLOAT and use BZ_MAX_FLOAT and let each configure define it as needed |
| 06:15.48 | allejo | with a conversation with bullet earlier today, there is no difference between the MAX_FLOAT in the common.h in bz and in math.h on 10.8 |
| 06:16.38 | jeffm | except that in math.h it's inside a DARWN_STDC_VERS #def test |
| 06:17.05 | jeffm | so it's assuming that the compiler is configured to support the macro type that it uses |
| 06:17.58 | jeffm | it's defined as 0x1.fffffep+127f |
| 06:18.11 | jeffm | and you usually can't do floating point as hex |
| 06:18.32 | jeffm | that's why it's all inside a test for #if __DARWIN_C_LEVEL >= 199506L |
| 06:18.44 | jeffm | that #def is true, but the compler isn't accepting it |
| 06:18.47 | jeffm | so there is a mismatch |
| 06:20.02 | allejo | that's slowly starting to settle into my head |
| 06:20.28 | jeffm | c99 added IEEE support for floats so a lot of the headers got redone |
| 06:21.14 | jeffm | we could try HUGE_VALF |
| 06:22.29 | jeffm | I'll look more into it tomorow |
| 06:23.51 | allejo | alright jeff thanks for the help |
| 06:23.55 | jeffm | sure |
| 06:24.04 | jeffm | it's cool that we got it further |
| 06:24.15 | jeffm | I still don't think we need to do a mac build for 2.4.2 |
| 06:24.34 | jeffm | but at least we can know what we may have to do when we redo the build system |
| 06:25.21 | allejo | better to figure it out now before mac becomes the new debian concerning builds |
| 06:25.38 | jeffm | meh |
| 06:25.55 | jeffm | we could always just build on 10.6 |
| 06:26.01 | jeffm | and we have bigger issues with the signing thing |
| 06:26.20 | jeffm | so even if we can build on 10.7 and 10.8 we still need to decide what to do there. |
| 06:26.34 | jeffm | we'll never go App Store, that needs sandboxing |
| 06:26.43 | jeffm | I'd rather just port to steam |
| 06:27.16 | allejo | ah right, what was talk about porting to steam that i heard a day or two ago |
| 06:27.26 | allejo | s/read/heard |
| 06:28.33 | jeffm | I doubt we'd make it thru the green light process |
| 06:29.47 | jeffm | we'd have to change a bunch of stuff if we did |
| 06:30.39 | allejo | would steam take over the project or would bz be available through steam? |
| 06:32.20 | jeffm | steam is a software distribution network |
| 06:32.32 | jeffm | it has games from many publishers and developers |
| 06:32.41 | jeffm | we would develop it, you would get it from steam |
| 06:33.03 | jeffm | every update we'd just submit a new set of builds to steam and it'd would update everyone |
| 06:34.19 | jeffm | They haven't finished the linux version of steam yet so I don' know how it it wold work there, or if they are set up to allow for open source projects that are always free |
| 06:34.37 | jeffm | they may require there to be a charge so they can cover bandwiths |
| 06:34.42 | jeffm | so it may not be viable |
| 06:34.53 | allejo | i was about to ask about linux and open source. so steam wouldn't like open source stuff? |
| 06:34.55 | jeffm | we'll find out when the green light program opens august 31st |
| 06:35.01 | jeffm | dunno |
| 06:35.10 | jeffm | there is little info out about it now |
| 06:35.25 | jeffm | right now you have to go ask steam to sell your game for you |
| 06:35.43 | jeffm | but the green light project is supposed to change that, but it's not out yet |
| 06:36.27 | allejo | how much work would be needed for bz to move to steam? |
| 06:39.28 | jeffm | depends on what the steamworks API needs and how it works |
| 06:39.46 | jeffm | I'd make some other changes to the game at the same time to not be laughed off the internet |
| 06:40.01 | jeffm | make the cursor be able to click the menu buttons |
| 06:40.19 | jeffm | remove the cursor in game and move to an axis based GUI that used mouse senitivity |
| 06:40.34 | allejo | copy paste from the console? that'd be nice |
| 06:40.35 | jeffm | remove Geno, CB, MQ and the like |
| 06:40.42 | jeffm | meh |
| 06:40.49 | jeffm | it's not a chat engine |
| 06:41.05 | jeffm | I'd also add tooltips for all the flags and general gameplay for new users |
| 06:41.11 | allejo | aww. and why geno? |
| 06:41.22 | jeffm | I'd remove our authentication system and just use steam |
| 06:41.26 | jeffm | it's poorly ballanced |
| 06:41.33 | jeffm | it does not require skill to use |
| 06:41.40 | jeffm | and it's very hard to explain |
| 06:42.01 | allejo | with the move to seam, how would that affect bz's api and server hosting? |
| 06:42.02 | jeffm | let the servers that want it use it as a custom flag mod |
| 06:42.21 | jeffm | why would it affect the API? |
| 06:42.31 | jeffm | and many steam games have dedicated servers |
| 06:43.16 | jeffm | and in the end we don't know |
| 06:43.22 | jeffm | it's just an idea that popped up |
| 06:43.36 | allejo | with no authentication, how would that affect global groups? |
| 06:43.40 | jeffm | there is no info on how steamworks integrates with anything |
| 06:43.49 | jeffm | who said no authentication |
| 06:43.55 | jeffm | steam authenticates ALL players |
| 06:44.07 | jeffm | everyone has to have a steam account, cue that's where you get the game |
| 06:44.13 | jeffm | it has friends lists and groups and all that |
| 06:44.37 | allejo | and global groups would be changed to use steam accounts? |
| 06:44.38 | jeffm | there would not be any unauthorized players |
| 06:44.49 | jeffm | possiby |
| 06:44.59 | jeffm | if steamworks allows it |
| 06:45.32 | allejo | steam sounds very interesting |
| 06:45.42 | jeffm | they sell a lot of games |
| 06:48.12 | jeffm | my gut tells me the won't do free games with out a cut off the in app purchases or a fee |
| 06:48.53 | jeffm | but once they do linux games they should have a policy on it, because that will be asked I'm sure |
| 06:49.46 | allejo | has linux popularity grown that steam is working on linux? |
| 06:50.26 | jeffm | I don't think so, they are just saturating the PC and mac markets |
| 06:50.43 | jeffm | there are linux users they have not had the chance to sell TF2 hats to |
| 06:53.45 | allejo | interesting. when a company like valve developers for linux how do they manage all the different distros? |
| 06:54.12 | jeffm | They will probably just do debian/ubuntu and maybe fedora |
| 06:54.42 | jeffm | but thats part of what well have to see |
| 06:55.29 | jeffm | they distribute linux server software no, so they must be aware of the issue |
| 06:58.32 | jeffm | time to make sleep |
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| 14:47.05 | onlinecop | Where can I find a formatting guide for the SVN code? It looks inconsistent, and I want to make sure I'm indenting/tabbing/spacing/bracketing/bracing correctly. |
| 14:47.16 | blast007 | DEVINFO |
| 14:49.16 | onlinecop | devinfo.txt? |
| 14:49.44 | onlinecop | Ah... trunk/bzflag/DEVINFO |
| 14:49.58 | onlinecop | Was expecting an extension :P Thanks, blast. |
| 14:52.13 | blast007 | :) |
| 14:57.55 | onlinecop | Maybe someone can explain this to me: What's the difference between 'indent' and tabs? |
| 14:58.24 | onlinecop | I see the DEVINFO stating that "indents are 2 characters; tabs are 8" |
| 14:58.53 | blast007 | it just means that a tab should be as wide as 8 characters |
| 14:59.12 | onlinecop | I got that; and my program understands the '8 tabs' thing. |
| 14:59.26 | blast007 | or in other words, 8 spaces can be replaced by a tab, and it should visually be the same |
| 14:59.28 | onlinecop | But when am I looking for '2 spaces' in the code? |
| 14:59.40 | onlinecop | What constitutes an 'indent' ? |
| 14:59.53 | blast007 | the actual indent is 2 characters, so when a sub-block is started, it should be two characters in from the parent |
| 15:00.20 | blast007 | two characters right* |
| 15:00.40 | blast007 | if (blah) |
| 15:00.43 | onlinecop | Okay, so if I have an 'if (...)' that spans multiple lines, the actual '[tab]...[tab]if (...)' is tabbed, but the next line (if the '(...)' is broken across lines) should be indented with two '[space][space]' ? |
| 15:00.45 | blast007 | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:01.16 | blast007 | ones that span multiple lines can be a bit tricky :) |
| 15:01.26 | onlinecop | Do we match up with parentheses? |
| 15:04.51 | blast007 | doesn't seem to be a definitive rule about that in DEVINFO, so I'd say to just check how it's been done elsewhere |
| 15:05.17 | onlinecop | Yeah; that's been a little willy-nilly. |
| 15:05.29 | blast007 | heh, welcome to BZFlag code ;) |
| 15:06.32 | onlinecop | So do the devs highly look down on someone going through and standardizing all the code? |
| 15:07.31 | onlinecop | For example, tabs used for alignment instead of spaces? |
| 15:08.38 | onlinecop | I've got some scripts on my IDE that I can run through that preserve all the tabulations, but will detab all of the alignment and turn them into spaces, so if the tab stops change from 8 to 4 or 2 (or 5), none of the comments and alignment are distorted. |
| 15:09.57 | blast007 | there is a 'ws.sh' script that goes through our files and makes whitespace corrections. |
| 15:10.47 | blast007 | ./misc/ws.sh |
| 15:10.58 | onlinecop | Ooh, I'll peruse that real quick. |
| 16:21.02 | onlinecop | Hrm. That misc/ws.sh is severely limited. Specifically, alignment should be done (IMO) with spaces, not tabs. Lines of code should be indented with tabs, indentation should start with the same number of tabs as the previous line, and then indented with spaces to align them correctly. |
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| 16:41.39 | blast007 | JeffM: so his "pro" computer has Intel graphics ;) |
| 16:42.26 | blast007 | though it is the stuff in the newer core architecture |
| 16:49.19 | JeffM | heh 3000 or 4000? |
| 16:51.23 | blast007 | dunno. he just said it's an i5 processor, so it depends which generation it is |
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| 16:51.29 | blast007 | I asked for more information. |
| 16:52.41 | blast007 | It's still likely a bug in the Intel drivers, but I might see if I can duplicate the issue. Only problem will be if it only occurs in the newer intel graphics cores. I don't have an i3/i5/i7 system with the option for integrated graphics. |
| 16:56.53 | blast007 | The newest I have access to is the Intel GMA X4500 on a Core 2 Duo system. |
| 17:01.06 | alezakos | I have an Intel Atom Z520, does it count? |
| 17:06.01 | blast007 | seems like that has a GMA 500? |
| 17:06.11 | JeffM | I have a 3k on the macbook |
| 17:06.11 | blast007 | or at least, maybe ;) |
| 17:06.17 | JeffM | but no linux on it |
| 17:06.17 | blast007 | JeffM: ok |
| 17:06.39 | blast007 | "Works in my VM!" |
| 17:08.23 | blast007 | JeffM: and he'll have Intel HD graphics of some form, not necessarily just one of those two |
| 17:08.55 | blast007 | first gen i5's just had "Intel HD Graphics" with no number :) |
| 17:09.40 | JeffM | ahh |
| 17:09.44 | JeffM | yeah it depends on the chipet |
| 17:11.58 | alezakos | My Atom does come with a GMA 500 |
| 17:12.00 | blast007 | depends on the CPU, technically - unless that is considered part of the chipset.. that line has been blurring a bit now that so much is integrated into the processors :) |
| 17:12.19 | JeffM | most of the GMA line is horible |
| 17:12.29 | blast007 | alezakos: that's a quite different graphics core, then. That's actually a PowerVR graphics core. |
| 17:12.39 | JeffM | spanbuffers FTW! |
| 17:13.44 | JeffM | blast007, I was able to duplicate the mac build thing that allejo had on 10.8 |
| 17:13.49 | blast007 | k |
| 17:13.55 | JeffM | you have to compile and install your own autogen, etc.. |
| 17:14.06 | blast007 | yeah, sounded like fun :) |
| 17:14.15 | JeffM | I will probalby make a branch in svn today to work out the issues with it |
| 17:14.35 | onlinecop | What were the issues? I'm running BZflag on a Mac. |
| 17:15.06 | JeffM | there are many, xcode does not include autotools anymore, it changed the version of the math headers, it deprecated a function we use |
| 17:15.13 | JeffM | and in general apple is greedy and evil |
| 17:15.24 | JeffM | they want us to spend 100$ a year just for the honor of building |
| 17:15.40 | onlinecop | So the Command-line tools don't include autotools? |
| 17:15.42 | JeffM | I have a solution for the math header |
| 17:15.44 | JeffM | nope |
| 17:15.51 | onlinecop | You have to re-add those each time Xcode gets updated. :( |
| 17:15.55 | JeffM | it dosn't use gcc anymore |
| 17:16.06 | JeffM | yep and it still don't include autotools |
| 17:16.26 | JeffM | they really are pushing for everyone to have a native xcode proejct, so they can be signed |
| 17:16.38 | onlinecop | I just bought a new Mac with Lion a week ago, and after I installed Command-line tools, I appear to have gcc in /usr/bin/gcc. |
| 17:16.58 | onlinecop | But those weren't there till I installed it... |
| 17:17.02 | JeffM | yes, 10.8's xcode does not have that |
| 17:17.16 | onlinecop | Are you running a Mac with Xcode 10.8 now? |
| 17:17.21 | JeffM | I have a mac as well and am aware of what they do and do not install |
| 17:17.23 | JeffM | yes |
| 17:17.45 | onlinecop | What do you get when you go to Xcode->Preferences, Downloads tab? |
| 17:17.56 | onlinecop | Do you have "Command Line Tools" listed under Components? |
| 17:17.57 | JeffM | dude. I installed the command line tools |
| 17:17.58 | JeffM | yes |
| 17:18.03 | JeffM | I know what I am doing ;) |
| 17:18.10 | onlinecop | Oh, I don't doubt it. |
| 17:18.12 | JeffM | that install does NOT include auto tools |
| 17:18.14 | onlinecop | I'm trying to reproduce it. |
| 17:18.57 | JeffM | that installs a link to llvm that makes it look like gcc to the command line |
| 17:19.25 | JeffM | mostly it just seems to be compatiblity issues between the 2 compilers |
| 17:19.30 | onlinecop | If I can reproduce it on a fresh install, I might be able to help find a workaround. |
| 17:19.40 | JeffM | as I said, I know the work around |
| 17:20.03 | JeffM | install autotools, or we move to a native xcode project |
| 17:20.05 | onlinecop | I don't doubt that. I'm trying to see if I can reproduce the problems so I can think of any solutions :P |
| 17:20.20 | JeffM | there arn't realy any other options |
| 17:20.52 | JeffM | they all require changes on our part |
| 17:21.10 | JeffM | ether of the config section or of the code section |
| 17:21.30 | *** join/#bzflag randomparticle (~randompar@about/essy/snick/randomparticle) |
| 17:21.33 | JeffM | well no mater what we have to change code |
| 17:21.39 | JeffM | we call a deprecated function |
| 17:21.42 | onlinecop | Is this bug documented somewhere (like a bug tracker) that I can see what all is involved in reproducing this problem? |
| 17:21.59 | JeffM | nope |
| 17:22.24 | JeffM | our current spec is that OSX builds are only supported on 10.6 |
| 17:22.33 | randomparticle | i'm interested in blur perception, so i'd like to try, as an experiment, inserting blank frames |
| 17:22.40 | JeffM | this is a development task to see what needs to be done to buidl on other versions |
| 17:22.46 | randomparticle | is there a quick hack to bz that would allow alternate black frames? |
| 17:22.52 | JeffM | no |
| 17:23.13 | randomparticle | i could clear the framebuffer, i guess |
| 17:23.20 | JeffM | sure |
| 17:23.27 | JeffM | clear and swap again |
| 17:23.32 | randomparticle | just before it's swapped. what would be the most efficient way of doing that? |
| 17:23.34 | JeffM | 2 frames for every one of bzflg |
| 17:23.34 | onlinecop | JeffM: I seem to be able to build Bzflag via Macports without issue (OS X 10.7). |
| 17:23.49 | JeffM | onlinecop, yeah with macports sure, after it hozes yourselfm |
| 17:23.52 | randomparticle | i was reading that CRT displays use an "impulse method" |
| 17:23.58 | randomparticle | it's quite interesting |
| 17:24.04 | JeffM | but whatever works for you, we won't ever build a release bin with macports or fink |
| 17:24.22 | JeffM | randomparticle, nobody uses a CRT anymore |
| 17:24.23 | onlinecop | Ah; I see where you're coming from now. |
| 17:24.44 | JeffM | onlinecop, yeah this is not a hack, this is to build for everyone, and the official bins |
| 17:24.47 | alezakos | Schools do |
| 17:24.59 | randomparticle | JeffM: indeed, but nevertheless CRT displays have some interesting characteristics lacking in modern displays |
| 17:25.11 | JeffM | sure they are techincaly vector devices |
| 17:25.12 | randomparticle | they're more accurate with respect to motion |
| 17:25.22 | JeffM | nobody cares |
| 17:25.57 | JeffM | onlinecop, we can't support a build system on an OS that requires you to compile and install other things just to get it to build |
| 17:26.10 | JeffM | at least not things that aren't suported by the OSs native package manager |
| 17:26.23 | JeffM | fink and macports can really jack up a system if used wrong. |
| 17:26.26 | onlinecop | JeffM: That's why I was asking so many questions :D |
| 17:27.29 | JeffM | our current build method for OSX should be in the readme, it does not mention macports ;) |
| 17:27.47 | JeffM | and macports or fink won't get you a signed bin |
| 17:28.09 | JeffM | if you don't want to be treated as malware by apple you have to use xcode it seems. |
| 17:28.10 | onlinecop | I just started going through the code 2 days ago, so I haven't read all the install/readme/DEVINFO docs yet ;) |
| 17:28.35 | JeffM | why would you read the code before the docs? how do you know what to expect in the code? |
| 17:29.01 | onlinecop | The docs tell me which files need to go where. |
| 17:29.08 | onlinecop | The actual code tells me what's going on. |
| 17:29.15 | JeffM | the docs tell you a lot of things |
| 17:29.21 | JeffM | the code is horrible |
| 17:29.47 | onlinecop | I know. I'm refactoring the code right now so I can read it better. |
| 17:29.57 | onlinecop | Mostly local changes to whitespace, which is horribly inconstant. |
| 17:30.04 | onlinecop | *inconsistent |
| 17:30.29 | onlinecop | JeffM: What about the code is so horrible? Anything I can help on? |
| 17:30.36 | blast007 | everything |
| 17:30.36 | JeffM | the entire design |
| 17:31.01 | JeffM | platform, the networking, the sim system. most of the drawing |
| 17:31.14 | onlinecop | Sim system? |
| 17:31.18 | JeffM | the fact that it does it's own dopler |
| 17:31.25 | JeffM | the simulation of the game state |
| 17:31.28 | blast007 | the sims, you know, the little people that run around |
| 17:31.38 | blast007 | waving their arms in the air as they burn |
| 17:31.45 | onlinecop | blast007: Yeah; I never did get to play the Sims... |
| 17:33.14 | blast007 | and then you herd them into the pool and remove the ladders |
| 17:33.29 | JeffM | bzflag is a lan game, it assumes that packets take 0 time for transimision and that all clients are the same |
| 17:33.47 | JeffM | so everyone has a different game state they use and they are all off by some ammount |
| 17:34.15 | JeffM | this is why you may see a shot go thru someone, but they won't explode, because they saw the shot behind them |
| 17:34.25 | blast007 | also assumes that all packets actually get there ;) |
| 17:34.30 | JeffM | your state is delayed by the time it takes his updates to get to you |
| 17:34.45 | JeffM | there is some code for packetloss |
| 17:34.53 | blast007 | well, for some stuff |
| 17:34.56 | blast007 | shots are sent UDP |
| 17:34.57 | JeffM | but not much so that just makes it worse |
| 17:35.03 | JeffM | so is movement |
| 17:35.03 | JeffM | yeah |
| 17:35.18 | JeffM | it was not designed by someone who understood internet play |
| 17:35.25 | onlinecop | Is there a library available that handles all of the stuff BZflag needs? |
| 17:35.30 | JeffM | sure, quake |
| 17:35.52 | JeffM | or several other libs combined |
| 17:36.00 | JeffM | ogre, enet, openAL |
| 17:36.09 | JeffM | you could rewrite bzflag with those |
| 17:36.23 | JeffM | use ODE or something for physics |
| 17:36.42 | blast007 | key word there is "rewrite". It isn't easy for the current codebase to integrate other libraries. |
| 17:36.44 | JeffM | and rewrite it to use a dumb client/ smart server |
| 17:36.54 | onlinecop | I don't think you'd want to stuff one game (BZflag) into an entire engine (Quake) unless it was a 100% fit. I'd say that individual libs for each part (one for networking, another for rendering, ...) would be best. |
| 17:36.58 | JeffM | yeah you'd have to pretty much redo everything, it's the same as starting over |
| 17:37.16 | JeffM | bzflag is nearly identical to quake with changes to some variables. |
| 17:37.36 | JeffM | take out sidestep and aiming up and down |
| 17:37.41 | JeffM | give everyone 1 health |
| 17:37.51 | JeffM | increase the jump and done |
| 17:38.10 | JeffM | it is not that unique of an idea these days |
| 17:38.23 | JeffM | it's features are a subset of most FPS games |
| 17:41.14 | blast007 | the main issue I see with using a full-on game engine like quake or doom 3 is that you lose some control of how things are done |
| 17:41.27 | onlinecop | What kind of control? |
| 17:41.37 | JeffM | yeah you have to code the way they do |
| 17:41.41 | onlinecop | If it's open source, just rewrite those parts :P |
| 17:41.51 | JeffM | for quake that'd be redoing it all |
| 17:41.53 | onlinecop | Or is the engine non open-source? |
| 17:41.53 | blast007 | onlinecop: so then you have to maintain your own version of the engine? |
| 17:42.02 | blast007 | the linux distros would not like that ;) |
| 17:42.06 | JeffM | yeah it's a tradeoff |
| 17:42.41 | blast007 | plus, cheat prevention in those engines might be sub-par, since they might have depended on PunkBuster when they were closed source |
| 17:42.52 | JeffM | yeah quake was not a serious example |
| 17:43.04 | JeffM | just that there are a TON of things out there that do what we need to do |
| 17:43.09 | blast007 | yup |
| 17:43.12 | JeffM | but they all involve starting over |
| 17:43.23 | JeffM | nothing in the bzflag codebase is worth keeping |
| 17:44.01 | onlinecop | So it's either "staring over with someone else's engine" or "starting over and hoping it's done right this time". |
| 17:44.23 | blast007 | or "keep shining that turd" |
| 17:44.34 | JeffM | not hoping, it's not magic, you design it to be right |
| 17:44.40 | JeffM | online games are not rocket science |
| 17:44.49 | JeffM | there is a lot of info out there about how to do it right |
| 17:45.14 | onlinecop | Yes, but you also have dedicated staff to make sure it's right. When you get a bunch of volunteers... |
| 17:45.14 | JeffM | yeah or just sit here and not release much and let apathy drive the project to the ground. |
| 17:45.37 | JeffM | I don't belive those are mutualy exclusive |
| 17:45.47 | JeffM | you can have a volenteer be the designer and make sure it's right |
| 17:46.02 | JeffM | you don't have to just let everyone do whatever they want to throw in |
| 17:46.17 | blast007 | proper project management comes into play there |
| 17:46.20 | JeffM | any large sucsesful open source project has a design and management |
| 17:46.22 | JeffM | yeah |
| 17:46.30 | JeffM | it's not just a bunch of hippies :) |
| 17:46.41 | JeffM | you think firefox just "evolved"? |
| 17:46.42 | onlinecop | Right now, I'm feeling like one of the hippies. |
| 17:46.58 | onlinecop | JeffM: Yes, but with a good reason: |
| 17:46.59 | JeffM | bzflag is not a well run project |
| 17:47.04 | JeffM | no it disn't |
| 17:47.07 | JeffM | it has a design team |
| 17:47.26 | onlinecop | Version 5. Oh wait, a month later instead of version 5.1, it was version 6. Oh, and a month later, it wasn't 6.01b. It was 7. Or maybe they skipped 7 and ran right onto 8. |
| 17:47.29 | JeffM | the design as changed as needs have changed, but they only accept code that is part of the design plan. |
| 17:47.36 | JeffM | that's just version numbers |
| 17:47.55 | JeffM | that dosn't mean that a randome developer just decided to name it 8 |
| 17:48.05 | JeffM | it means that the design team had to refactor the design |
| 17:48.08 | onlinecop | Sometimes it feels like that's exactly what happened ;) |
| 17:48.25 | JeffM | if you don't take the time to look into the project and just make assumptions, sure |
| 17:48.35 | JeffM | version nubmers are just that.. numbers |
| 17:48.49 | JeffM | they don't actualy mean anything other then a name for a codebase |
| 17:48.49 | onlinecop | I know, I know. And I'm getting off-topic. |
| 17:49.12 | JeffM | but yeah to do bzflag right you'd want to have some people in your traditional game dev roles |
| 17:49.19 | onlinecop | I should wrap my <rants> in tags so it doesn't detract from the rest of my real questions :D |
| 17:49.23 | JeffM | designer, graphics team lead, networking lead |
| 17:49.42 | JeffM | then that team uses the developers to get the code that is right for the design |
| 17:49.50 | JeffM | it's ok to reject a patch if it dosn't fit |
| 17:50.36 | onlinecop | Should we rewrite all the logic in Lua? |
| 17:54.26 | blast007 | no, PHP |
| 17:54.37 | onlinecop | Ooh, server-side |
| 17:54.59 | blast007 | or JavaScript! |
| 17:55.23 | onlinecop | Flash... |
| 17:55.37 | blast007 | and actually, JavaScript was a serious suggestion ;) |
| 17:55.42 | onlinecop | Oh, sorry Flash. Didn't see your name in here. Wasn't trying to ping you. |
| 17:56.29 | JeffM | javascript is a viable scripting language. |
| 17:56.34 | JeffM | so is lua and python |
| 17:56.49 | JeffM | it would depend on how the reqrite was done, what language would integrate best |
| 17:56.58 | JeffM | python integrated well with the managed CLI stuff |
| 17:57.18 | JeffM | this would all be part of the design |
| 17:57.27 | onlinecop | I still need to learn Python. Everyone uses it. I've only used Lua and Javascript. |
| 17:57.29 | blast007 | JS, at least for stuff that isn't .NET, since we couldn't seem to find a managed CLI version |
| 17:57.44 | blast007 | (or at least one that let you read .js files and parse them) |
| 17:57.47 | JeffM | not pure managed, thre was mixed mode |
| 17:58.02 | JeffM | all the languages use syntax similar to C |
| 17:58.10 | JeffM | so langauge dosn't matter much |
| 17:58.30 | blast007 | LOLcode |
| 17:58.40 | JeffM | a totaly viable manged language |
| 17:58.46 | blast007 | ;) |
| 17:59.16 | onlinecop | No, but some have better built-in "network" code than others. |
| 17:59.29 | JeffM | you would not want to let the scripting do networking |
| 17:59.38 | JeffM | that way lies madness and incompatability |
| 18:00.03 | JeffM | you'd have a framwork that handled the networking and object management, then have scripting modify those states |
| 18:05.13 | onlinecop | Has there been any recent activity on the current code /trunk ? |
| 18:05.37 | onlinecop | Oh, take that back. |
| 18:05.43 | onlinecop | I was reading the year and day backward. |
| 18:06.36 | blast007 | heh |
| 18:07.21 | blast007 | "Last edited in the year 1928.. hmm..." |
| 18:07.24 | onlinecop | My SVN client was using "%y-%d-%m" format. How confusing is that?! |
| 18:07.53 | blast007 | I prefer YYYY-MM-DD for datestamps |
| 18:08.02 | onlinecop | It should be either y-m-d, or d/m/y (or even m/d/y). |
| 18:08.15 | alezakos | m/d/y is confusing |
| 18:08.18 | onlinecop | I prefer YYYY-MM-DD as well. A change in day lets you still sort correctly. |
| 18:08.22 | alezakos | and irrational as well |
| 18:08.30 | onlinecop | alezakos: Yeah; Americans were never the brightest. |
| 18:08.48 | onlinecop | I'm more for d-m-y or y-m-d than y-d-m or whatever. |
| 18:15.47 | *** join/#bzflag ibot (~ibot@rikers.org) |
| 18:15.47 | *** topic/#bzflag is http://BZFlag.org || http://cia.vc/stats/project/BZFlag || http://wiki.BZFlag.org/Getting_Help || Channel Logs: http://ibot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/ || 2.4.2 is released, deal with it, purple monkey dishwasher |
| 18:15.47 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o ibot] by ChanServ |
| 18:16.21 | randomparticle | i don't want to grey. just half the original values for rgb |
| 18:16.34 | JeffM | write a shader |
| 18:16.34 | randomparticle | maybe some sort of blend operation? |
| 18:16.43 | JeffM | you can't use clear for that |
| 18:16.53 | *** join/#bzflag GvzEvxre (~timr@bzflag/projectlead/TimRiker) |
| 18:16.53 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o GvzEvxre] by ChanServ |
| 18:17.05 | randomparticle | let's see what google turns up |
| 18:17.09 | JeffM | you'd have to draw a big quad |
| 18:17.45 | randomparticle | that's ok |
| 18:17.50 | blast007 | randomparticle: so I guess we're plan A, and doing research yourself is plan B? ;) |
| 18:17.51 | JeffM | or use a shader |
| 18:18.20 | JeffM | onlinecop, I know apple is pushing 64 bit, thats why you need it |
| 18:18.39 | onlinecop | Yeah; I have to have 64 bit ever since I upgraded from Leopard to Snow Leopard. |
| 18:18.42 | JeffM | but most other 64 bit OSs can run 32 bit code just fine |
| 18:18.44 | onlinecop | *had to have |
| 18:19.00 | JeffM | Apple is very insitant that you drink the cool-aid |
| 18:19.34 | onlinecop | I guess my question would be: How much backward compatibility do you have to do to make a 64-bit game run 32-bit on all the appropriate hardware? |
| 18:19.35 | JeffM | I'd rather go CPU independent |
| 18:19.57 | JeffM | all you really have to do is don't use any 32 bit pointers |
| 18:20.05 | JeffM | and just use the language pointer types |
| 18:20.10 | JeffM | then just rebuild |
| 18:20.22 | JeffM | don't store pointers in ints :) |
| 18:20.23 | onlinecop | Where in BZflag is it using 32-bit pointers currently? |
| 18:20.28 | JeffM | it isn't |
| 18:20.36 | JeffM | bzflag compiles fine on 64 bit |
| 18:20.45 | JeffM | has for a long time |
| 18:20.47 | blast007 | actually works better on 64-bit linux than 32-bit ;) |
| 18:20.47 | onlinecop | So wouldn't that mean Bzflag is technically 64-bit now, on the hardware that supports it? |
| 18:20.53 | JeffM | yeah |
| 18:20.59 | JeffM | if we built it 64 bit |
| 18:20.59 | blast007 | it's 64-bit if it's build 64-bit |
| 18:21.03 | onlinecop | Oh... I got an impression earlier that "bzflag is not 64-bit". |
| 18:21.05 | JeffM | we don't build 64 bit on all platforms |
| 18:21.10 | JeffM | the binary you got probaby isn't |
| 18:21.25 | JeffM | but that dosn't mean it can't be |
| 18:21.31 | onlinecop | Ah. Any speed increases if I compile it 64-bit myself then? |
| 18:21.33 | blast007 | on linux, it will be built for the arch you are using |
| 18:21.37 | JeffM | probalby not |
| 18:21.51 | blast007 | onlinecop: you're using OSX? |
| 18:21.54 | JeffM | the linux 64 bit thing has to do with how the floating point code is computed on the compiler |
| 18:21.55 | onlinecop | blast007: Yes |
| 18:22.08 | JeffM | you can't build right now on 10.7+ |
| 18:22.11 | blast007 | onlinecop: which one? 10.8? |
| 18:22.14 | JeffM | well with ourt yoru macports |
| 18:22.17 | randomparticle | yes you can, jeffm |
| 18:22.22 | JeffM | he's using macports on 10.7 |
| 18:22.25 | onlinecop | blast007: I have access to 10.6, 10.7 and (if I decide to upgrade my new Macbook), 10.8. |
| 18:22.26 | blast007 | eww |
| 18:22.29 | JeffM | randomparticle, not with out hackxors |
| 18:22.37 | blast007 | 10.6, sure, you could build there |
| 18:22.47 | JeffM | yeah 10.6 should build with xcode 3 |
| 18:22.48 | randomparticle | compiles fine 64-bit for me on os x 10.7 |
| 18:23.06 | onlinecop | So you're saying it won't compile at all 10.8? |
| 18:23.06 | randomparticle | i've been running 64-bit versions on windows and mac os x for at least 3 years now |
| 18:23.06 | blast007 | with your hacked up system, sure |
| 18:23.17 | randomparticle | it's not hacked up blast007 |
| 18:23.21 | JeffM | randomparticle, did you have to make any changes to the system? |
| 18:23.23 | randomparticle | no |
| 18:23.24 | blast007 | randomparticle: what did you have to do to get 10.7 to build? macports or fink? |
| 18:23.30 | randomparticle | xcode |
| 18:23.32 | onlinecop | My 10.8 doesn't have Macports on it yet (I've been waiting for a week for a SSD to come in so I can install everything "right") |
| 18:23.41 | Constitution | sometimes wishes the amount of game development corresponded to the amount of chatter in here |
| 18:23.43 | JeffM | what version of xcode? |
| 18:23.44 | randomparticle | i don't use macports or fink |
| 18:23.52 | randomparticle | let me check |
| 18:24.01 | randomparticle | 4.1 |
| 18:24.02 | JeffM | did you ever have old code installed? |
| 18:24.13 | JeffM | ahh that probalby game with autotools and the like |
| 18:24.24 | JeffM | the current xcode dosn't come with autotools so the command line fails |
| 18:24.44 | JeffM | I've been working arround that since last night |
| 18:24.47 | onlinecop | JeffM: What are some of the auto tools names that I should look for on my system? |
| 18:24.49 | randomparticle | i see |
| 18:24.55 | JeffM | libtool autogen autoconf |
| 18:24.57 | JeffM | m4 |
| 18:25.19 | JeffM | Constitution, I got further with a build on 10.8 after installing my own autotools |
| 18:25.20 | randomparticle | yeah, i have those |
| 18:25.28 | JeffM | yeah they don't give those out anymore ;) |
| 18:25.37 | randomparticle | that's annoying of them |
| 18:25.45 | JeffM | that'd be apple |
| 18:25.53 | onlinecop | I have m4, libtool both in /usr/bin, so MacPorts didn't install those. I have autoconf in /opt/local/bin, so MacPorts DID install that one. |
| 18:26.15 | JeffM | yeah differnt versions of xcode had different versions of tools |
| 18:26.28 | JeffM | it's all horibly inconsistent |
| 18:26.32 | Constitution | is it worthwhile to try to make it compile on 10.8 with autotools? why not put that effort into making it compile natively on the latest IDE? |
| 18:26.47 | JeffM | Constitution, because that is a much larger project |
| 18:26.53 | randomparticle | might be possible to get them from the apple open source web pages |
| 18:26.53 | JeffM | but it's what we have to do in the end |
| 18:27.04 | JeffM | randomparticle, no you get them from gnu |
| 18:27.09 | JeffM | apple moved off of gcc |
| 18:27.17 | JeffM | so they don't use gnu tools anymore |
| 18:27.19 | randomparticle | entirely? |
| 18:27.19 | blast007 | "As of version 4.2 the Apple LLVM Compiler became the default compiler" |
| 18:27.25 | JeffM | yeah it's llvm now |
| 18:27.30 | randomparticle | no gcc included at all? |
| 18:27.32 | JeffM | nope |
| 18:27.38 | onlinecop | I personally don't like any of Apple's stripped-down versions of all these tools. That's why I went to MacPorts: I had to get a GNU compliant version of these things (even find and xargs). |
| 18:27.42 | JeffM | you can have llvm go into a gcc compatbility mode |
| 18:28.00 | JeffM | Constitution, I'm just trying to find all the build problems, there are some code changes we have to make |
| 18:28.04 | randomparticle | isn't it 100% identical? |
| 18:28.07 | JeffM | nope |
| 18:28.23 | JeffM | as we found out with MAX_FLOAT ;) |
| 18:28.25 | randomparticle | didn't think so. gcc is so complicated, the only safe way would be to use the genuine thing, i think |
| 18:28.46 | JeffM | they don't care about gcc or command line, you need to use xcode to get a signed app |
| 18:28.55 | randomparticle | i mean, the gcc man page is nearly nine thousand lines long :-) |
| 18:28.56 | onlinecop | Does Apple not allowed a signed binary if we don't use their llvm? |
| 18:29.04 | JeffM | and with 10.8 unsigned apps won't run with out a seperate action |
| 18:29.25 | JeffM | onlinecop, all information indicates that the signing is done by xcode |
| 18:29.33 | JeffM | but we can't know for sure unless we pay 100$ |
| 18:29.52 | JeffM | you have to be a paid developer |
| 18:29.55 | onlinecop | Why would you have to have a paid Apple dev account to find out about the code signing? |
| 18:30.06 | JeffM | because the signing tools are behind the paywal |
| 18:30.18 | JeffM | so there is little info about them outside |
| 18:30.22 | randomparticle | the problem with standard gnu gcc (have tried compiling it myself before) is that you need apple's backend |
| 18:30.39 | randomparticle | traditionally, apple's gcc was out of date, but worked |
| 18:30.53 | randomparticle | but gnu's gcc was problematic on os x |
| 18:30.54 | JeffM | sounds like apple's video drivers too :) |
| 18:31.40 | JeffM | no mater what you have to be a paid developer so sign |
| 18:31.51 | JeffM | since the dev account is what the DEVID is tied to |
| 18:32.07 | randomparticle | is that only for apps, or for any program ? |
| 18:32.22 | JeffM | as far as I know it's anything run on the system |
| 18:32.28 | randomparticle | hmpf |
| 18:32.35 | JeffM | yep |
| 18:32.44 | JeffM | you can turn it off for a dev system |
| 18:32.53 | JeffM | or get a dev key if you are a paid app developer |
| 18:33.01 | randomparticle | i would imagine someone will find a hack to disable it |
| 18:33.09 | JeffM | you can turn it off |
| 18:33.19 | JeffM | or once you give an exception for an app it never asks again |
| 18:33.30 | JeffM | you just have to right click and pick open |
| 18:33.39 | JeffM | or turn off the gatekeeper in the control panel |
| 18:33.43 | JeffM | so there is no need for a hack |
| 18:33.49 | randomparticle | that's not too bad then |
| 18:33.56 | JeffM | no it's not dibilitating |
| 18:33.59 | JeffM | just anoying |
| 18:34.00 | onlinecop | "To play Bzflag, you must disable parts of Apple" should go over well with most Apple fans... |
| 18:34.07 | randomparticle | but still, the direction of travel is not encouraging |
| 18:34.23 | JeffM | onlinecop, they have to do that now with most apps that moved up from 10.7 if they go to 10.8 |
| 18:34.36 | JeffM | randomparticle, they want the highest walls in the garden |
| 18:34.42 | JeffM | they have been on this trend for years |
| 18:34.57 | JeffM | thats why I can't get my amazon music on my iphone ;) |
| 18:35.17 | randomparticle | the trouble with their walled garden is it full of weeks ;--) |
| 18:35.22 | randomparticle | *weeds |
| 18:35.45 | JeffM | if we wanted to distribute via the app store we'd have to change code too |
| 18:35.48 | JeffM | and run sandboxed |
| 18:36.06 | onlinecop | Is that something that the BZflag devs have been wanting to do? (App Store) |
| 18:36.11 | JeffM | no |
| 18:36.17 | randomparticle | is the license compatible with app store t&c? |
| 18:36.19 | JeffM | we care very little about the mac platform |
| 18:36.32 | alezakos | No, the license doesn't seem to be compatible. |
| 18:36.45 | JeffM | tehre are probalby ways to make the license work |
| 18:36.48 | randomparticle | i seem to recall vlc being taken off for that reason (by the devs themselves) |
| 18:37.03 | JeffM | tim could relicnese it for the appstore |
| 18:37.07 | JeffM | so it's not that big of a deal |
| 18:37.39 | JeffM | onlinecop, the mac version is usualy late |
| 18:37.45 | randomparticle | in some ways i think bzflag would be quite well suited to small devices |
| 18:37.48 | JeffM | it has overtaken linux recently in client use |
| 18:37.53 | randomparticle | is a simple game with a simple interface |
| 18:37.54 | onlinecop | Bzflag for iPhone you mean? |
| 18:37.57 | randomparticle | but it would so so much work |
| 18:37.58 | JeffM | randomparticle, a game like bzflag sure |
| 18:38.03 | onlinecop | Tilt to drive, tap to shoot, swipe to jump? |
| 18:38.10 | JeffM | you'd have to change it slightly |
| 18:38.27 | JeffM | but yeah there are a bunch of tank games on all the phone platforms |
| 18:38.29 | randomparticle | controlwise it's a lot simpler than most shoot 'em up games |
| 18:38.36 | JeffM | it's been done |
| 18:38.56 | alezakos | What else you could do, is a bzadmin client for the iPhone or the iPad |
| 18:38.59 | JeffM | food time, bbl |
| 18:39.06 | JeffM | alezakos, no web interface. |
| 18:39.26 | alezakos | What do you mean? |
| 18:39.51 | onlinecop | All the output of bzadmin goes to a terminal, one line per message. There's not a web interface version of that. |
| 18:40.30 | onlinecop | Nor a way to interact back with it, except maybe having some text field that you could hen-peck commands into. |
| 18:40.57 | alezakos | Well, not a bzadmin client exactly as it is on the bzflag package |
| 18:41.16 | alezakos | Something completely new, with an AppleStore-compatible license. |
| 18:41.34 | onlinecop | Why change the license for Apple? |
| 18:42.00 | alezakos | To make it eligible for the Apple store |
| 18:42.23 | onlinecop | I quite like the fact that this builds and runs everywhere, and although I'm surrounded by Macs (mainly because work requires it), I don't like pandering to their prices or limitations. |
| 18:42.41 | onlinecop | I'd hate to limit the license "just" to appease to Apple. |
| 18:43.17 | alezakos | No, I'm talking about a version specialized to Apple's pocket products (iPad, iPod) |
| 18:44.27 | alezakos | Anyone could do this, if they know a little about how the server works |
| 18:45.04 | onlinecop | The "knowing how the server works" part would disqualify me ;) |
| 18:45.33 | alezakos | There is an easy way to get qualified: Learn how the server works! |
| 18:46.41 | blast007 | alezakos: he meant "no, web interface" |
| 18:47.04 | blast007 | if we continue development, bzadmin will go away and be replaced by a bzfs plugin that provides a web interface |
| 18:47.20 | blast007 | then all you need is a web browser |
| 18:47.37 | onlinecop | Day 2 here. Remember I'm still just on day 2 of "let's take a look at the SVN code for the first time!" :P |
| 18:48.18 | onlinecop | And all I can see from the code is inconsistent whitespace that needs to be fixed. |
| 18:48.21 | alezakos | onlinecop: What's your programming background? I'm asking just because I'm curious. |
| 18:48.42 | blast007 | onlinecop: what do you mean by "I'd hate to limit the license "just" to appease to Apple." ? |
| 18:48.50 | onlinecop | alezakos: 12 years C and C++, 4 in Objective C, C#, 8-9 in JS, CSS, HTML |
| 18:49.17 | onlinecop | blast007: I'd hate to take the current license, which is very open and unrestrictive, and use a different one just so it can be considered by Apple. |
| 18:49.23 | blast007 | we wouldn't |
| 18:49.34 | blast007 | there can be more than one license :P |
| 18:49.44 | onlinecop | Oh, okay. |
| 18:50.04 | onlinecop | alezakos: Also, about 2 years of iPhone development, but that's my new niche right now. |
| 18:50.14 | alezakos | Nice |
| 18:50.18 | blast007 | but anyways, that's where bzadmin is headed.. the digital dumpster |
| 18:50.36 | onlinecop | blast007: Is there any reason to keep bzadmin around? |
| 18:50.38 | blast007 | it's silly to make a new native version of that when a web interface can do it just as well or better |
| 18:50.42 | onlinecop | Anything that can't be done anywhere else? |
| 18:51.13 | blast007 | onlinecop: currently there is not a replacement, but bzfs plugins can expose a web interface in 2.4 |
| 18:51.26 | blast007 | bzfs can talk HTTP :) |
| 18:52.20 | onlinecop | 'fs' on the end of 'bzfs' sounds almost like 'ntfs' :P |
| 18:52.27 | onlinecop | Battlezone File System |
| 19:28.38 | Constitution | BZFlag Server :) |
| 19:29.29 | alezakos | Battlezone File System |
| 19:29.45 | alezakos | as said by onlinecop |
| 19:33.34 | blast007 | nah, it's BZip2 File System |
| 20:02.37 | JeffM | bzflag server |
| 20:03.05 | JeffM | and tim can dual license the code, he would not have to change the licnese for everyone |
| 20:03.17 | JeffM | he can do whatever he wants wit it |
| 20:03.26 | JeffM | heck, I can sell you a copy of bzflag if I want |
| 20:03.47 | onlinecop | :) |
| 20:03.58 | JeffM | and the server is mostly a packet relay |
| 20:04.01 | JeffM | it dosn't do much game logic |
| 20:04.03 | JeffM | just spawns |
| 20:04.34 | JeffM | it dosn't even know where shots are |
| 20:05.09 | JeffM | webadmin just needs authentication fixed then it can replace bzadmin |
| 20:08.53 | JeffM | if we went appstore I'd see if Tim would turn copyright over to a company and then just dual license it as needed. |
| 20:12.53 | allejo | JeffM, was i just mentioned or did you ping me? my client doesn't scroll up that far |
| 20:19.26 | JeffM | I just mentioned you in the recap of last nights mac build stuff |
| 20:19.59 | JeffM | I'm going to make a branch to work out the mac build issues in |
| 20:24.44 | JeffM | in the end we have to come up with a build system that dosn't need autotools, but at least this way we can find out what the other code changes we will have to make will be |
| 20:25.07 | JeffM | and there is no rush to get a 2.4.2 mac version since 2.4.0 works just fine |
| 20:28.19 | onlinecop | So let me pass this by you: What if I were to read through all the docs on how the sources should be formatted, and then go through each one from the /trunk, and make them all fit this style? So code is indented with tabs, not spaces, indentation uses two spaces, not tabs, and not aligned to the open parentheses. |
| 20:28.36 | onlinecop | There would be no change to code other than whitespace cleanup. |
| 20:28.48 | onlinecop | Would it be worth it to merge that many changes back into the main /trunk ? |
| 20:32.52 | JeffM | there are scripts that do that |
| 20:33.13 | JeffM | but sure making the whitespace consistent isn't a bad thing |
| 20:33.21 | JeffM | every couple years someone runs a script and fixes it up |
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| 20:58.54 | onlinecop | Yeah; I tried that script. It's horrible. |
| 20:59.08 | JeffM | there are many out there on the internet |
| 20:59.25 | onlinecop | I know; the one they run is bad. Others on the internet can probably be a bit easier on the eyes. :D |
| 21:00.04 | onlinecop | But would the entire BZflag dev team revolt if they saw this many changes JUST to whitespace, so everything is formatted standard-ly? |
| 21:00.10 | JeffM | you are following the formating rules in devinfo right? |
| 21:00.17 | onlinecop | Correct. |
| 21:00.17 | JeffM | what standar? |
| 21:00.28 | JeffM | like I said, that happens every couple years |
| 21:00.37 | JeffM | so as long as it's whats in devinfo they can't revolt |
| 21:00.54 | onlinecop | Tabs used to indent instead of spaces (lot of files use 2 spaces to indent code instead of a single tab). |
| 21:01.07 | JeffM | thankfuly bzflag is not a democracy |
| 21:01.27 | onlinecop | I know. But 'svn blame' would show that I (or whoever committed on my behalf) modified all those files, and would expect that the person who did it was responsible for "the original code" :D |
| 21:01.51 | JeffM | the comment would say what it was and why, as well as who wrote the patch |
| 21:02.08 | JeffM | the active development community is super small |
| 21:02.23 | JeffM | as in you've talked to nearly all of them today |
| 21:02.27 | onlinecop | lol |
| 21:03.01 | JeffM | BulletCatcher and khonkhortisan do some work as well |
| 21:03.13 | JeffM | others commit a few times a year if at all |
| 21:03.37 | onlinecop | Do I have to "prove myself" in order to get write access, or just have a few projects on SF under my belt? |
| 21:03.48 | JeffM | you must submit patches |
| 21:03.50 | onlinecop | I'm not exactly sure how bzflag's SVN access is set up. |
| 21:03.54 | JeffM | nobody gets commit blind |
| 21:04.02 | onlinecop | Okay, good. That's actually a relief. |
| 21:04.11 | JeffM | that statement right there is why you won't get commit blind :) |
| 21:04.42 | onlinecop | ? |
| 21:04.54 | JeffM | blast007 and myself are project admins, we'd decide after you had some patches |
| 21:05.28 | onlinecop | Yeah; I hate dealing with "anyone with a monkey wrench and an SVN client can commit" repositories. |
| 21:05.34 | blast007 | onlinecop: indents are supposed to be two space, not a tab |
| 21:05.39 | JeffM | those projects don't last long |
| 21:05.44 | blast007 | but 8 spaces can be replaced with a tab |
| 21:05.51 | blast007 | at least, that's my understanding of it |
| 21:05.59 | JeffM | devinfo should make it very clear |
| 21:06.06 | JeffM | as well as the footers of every file |
| 21:07.07 | onlinecop | blast007: What I don't understand is how the tabs are supposed to work. If I have an 'if' statement, I should prepend the line with one or more tabs, correct? |
| 21:07.17 | blast007 | no |
| 21:07.21 | onlinecop | It should let me align my code if I have 2, 3, 4, or 8 tab stops. |
| 21:07.30 | blast007 | you should indent it with two spaces |
| 21:07.52 | blast007 | and your editor should insert two spaces when you press the 'tab' key |
| 21:08.14 | onlinecop | blast007: So a function will start with 0 tabs/spaces, like 'void foo() {' and the next line after the '{' brace should be indented. Is that indented with a tab, or 2 spaces? |
| 21:08.42 | blast007 | 2 spaces |
| 21:09.04 | onlinecop | Okay, and what about alignment? Some places show "void[tab]addr;" |
| 21:09.06 | blast007 | (which you can add by using the 'tab' key in sane editors) |
| 21:09.11 | onlinecop | Do we want spaces or tabs to align those? |
| 21:09.16 | JeffM | " The closing brace is indented |
| 21:09.16 | JeffM | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:09.16 | JeffM | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:09.23 | JeffM | an ident is defined as 2 spaces |
| 21:09.27 | JeffM | that sounds pretty clear to me |
| 21:09.43 | JeffM | even if it make the code fugly |
| 21:09.54 | blast007 | a tab character is equal to 8 spaces |
| 21:10.01 | blast007 | in our code, at least :) |
| 21:10.06 | JeffM | yep |
| 21:10.33 | blast007 | so your editor needs to be configured to make tab characters show up 8 characters wide |
| 21:10.54 | JeffM | thats why there is the emacs format block in the footer, that triggers most editors |
| 21:11.22 | onlinecop | Yeah; I'm actually impressed with TextWrangler for understanding those emacs format blocks :) |
| 21:11.31 | JeffM | it's very common |
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| 21:11.54 | onlinecop | So how do we handle alignment? I think spaces make it easier. |
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| 21:13.13 | JeffM | indents are spaces |
| 21:13.22 | JeffM | alighment is done with indents |
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| 21:13.42 | JeffM | 4 indents in a row should be a tab character |
| 21:13.47 | onlinecop | And so the use of tabs is to simply cut down the amount of concurrent spaces used (always 8, no more, no less) ? |
| 21:13.52 | JeffM | yes |
| 21:14.24 | JeffM | your editor should do that if you hit the tab key 4 times in a row |
| 21:14.51 | onlinecop | Yeah; I'm using an editor that doesn't handle that the same way. |
| 21:15.06 | onlinecop | I'll just have to make due with regex replacement after I'm done with my restyling :D |
| 21:15.23 | JeffM | then that would not be a good editor to do format changes in |
| 21:15.50 | JeffM | this is why it is often automated, then it is editor independent |
| 21:16.04 | JeffM | if your editor is reading the emacs block then it should be fine |
| 21:31.03 | blast007 | I love this error message.. "There was an error" .... |
| 21:33.25 | JeffM | you don't say |
| 21:36.00 | blast007 | JeffM: that was pretty much all the detail I got from the maximum logging level about why a registry edit failed... :) |
| 21:36.09 | JeffM | fun |
| 21:36.39 | blast007 | I think it didn't like that I told it to "delete and recreate" the registry key because they key didn't yet exist.. |
| 21:37.32 | JeffM | she canna break the laws of physics captain! |
| 21:38.53 | blast007 | I just figured it would be smart enough, but hey.. it's Novell |
| 21:39.23 | blast007 | and once I'm on active directory, I won't need to manually add group policy registry entries ;) |
| 21:39.47 | JeffM | yeah AD is nice for a lot of things |
| 21:40.50 | blast007 | for all the bad things people say about Microsoft, their enterprise stuff is top notch |
| 21:41.22 | JeffM | there open source programs arn't too bad ether ;) |
| 21:42.38 | CIA-106 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 * r22532 10/branches/experimental/2_4_OSX_Lion_Rebuild_branch/: make a branch to test out changes for the lion based OSs. |
| 21:43.05 | blast007 | and this will be the first year at the district that there isn't macs being actively used at the elementary levels ;) |
| 21:43.27 | JeffM | we have one mac left |
| 21:43.33 | JeffM | sadly it is the presedents |
| 21:43.50 | blast007 | there will be a few left, some of the newer shiny metal iMacs |
| 21:44.01 | JeffM | heh, this is an old 800mhz G5 |
| 21:44.10 | blast007 | and then some eMacs used as student computers in classrooms, but I want to pull those from the networks |
| 21:44.16 | blast007 | network* |
| 21:44.21 | JeffM | he bought a copy of office for it, we told him to return it |
| 21:44.25 | blast007 | lol |
| 21:44.30 | JeffM | no PPC support |
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| 22:28.59 | CIA-106 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 * r22533 10/branches/experimental/2_4_OSX_Lion_Rebuild_branch/ (17 files in 8 dirs): use BZ_MAXFLOAT instead of MAXFLOAT so we can set it correctly on OSX 10.8 |
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