| 00:02.21 | pabs3 | JeffM: copyright doesn't protect things like that, maybe you mean patents or trademarks? |
| 00:02.45 | JeffM | pabs3, oh I know it dosn't, the developers have full rights to defent there works |
| 00:02.47 | JeffM | most just don't |
| 00:02.50 | JeffM | they fold in fear |
| 00:03.01 | mdskpr_ | JeffM: what are these 'methods'? |
| 00:03.01 | pabs3 | :( |
| 00:03.40 | JeffM | mdskpr_, a system where community members can subsribe to a program to support the project with funds |
| 00:03.48 | JeffM | they get access to a members only server |
| 00:04.02 | JeffM | and the project gets money to give out to server admins, and pay code bounties |
| 00:04.05 | brad | hm |
| 00:04.11 | JeffM | money makes people do things |
| 00:04.22 | JeffM | it would not be required to play of course |
| 00:04.26 | brad | dont think server admins would need any financial support |
| 00:04.38 | brad | not looking at bz anyway;p |
| 00:04.39 | a_meteorite | plenty of server admins that do it on their own dime |
| 00:04.42 | JeffM | my docs have a project run admin geam |
| 00:04.45 | JeffM | team |
| 00:04.47 | brad | oh |
| 00:04.49 | JeffM | as in banning players and stuff |
| 00:05.08 | JeffM | that would make the quality of those admins go up |
| 00:05.15 | JeffM | if they were activly managed as a whole |
| 00:05.27 | JeffM | I have the proejct treating servers like IRC |
| 00:05.42 | JeffM | where there are only a few offical "servers" but they run many games in various "rooms" |
| 00:05.43 | mdskpr_ | so admins would be chosen by devs? |
| 00:05.54 | JeffM | not devs |
| 00:06.02 | JeffM | the project would create a server admin team |
| 00:06.14 | JeffM | that team would be resposnible for picking and magaing admins |
| 00:06.19 | JeffM | I would not want devs to be admins |
| 00:06.27 | a_meteorite | I'm not sure if I like the idea of a project-blessed admin team... too much potential for favoritism |
| 00:06.27 | JeffM | I want them to write code, not ban people :) |
| 00:06.43 | mdskpr_ | ah, much nicer and i suppose the rooms are connected through a lobby? |
| 00:06.44 | JeffM | a_meteorite, ok then you don't have to play :) |
| 00:06.53 | JeffM | yeah sorta |
| 00:07.08 | JeffM | that would be one or more "default" instances on each meta server |
| 00:07.14 | JeffM | where you go automaticly |
| 00:07.21 | JeffM | then you can jump into other games |
| 00:07.29 | JeffM | team games, leauge games, etc.. |
| 00:07.37 | mdskpr_ | and how would leagues fit into the room idea? would leagues have their own official server? |
| 00:07.45 | JeffM | yes |
| 00:07.53 | JeffM | I would make a server net for leauges |
| 00:08.02 | JeffM | you would register a leauge |
| 00:08.09 | JeffM | get access to all the management tools |
| 00:08.23 | TimRiker | pokes his head in and scans the logs |
| 00:08.24 | a_meteorite | JeffM: just saying the likelihood of anything project-endorsed being fair goes to zero |
| 00:08.25 | JeffM | be able to make leauge rooms on the server ets.. |
| 00:08.31 | JeffM | a_meteorite, ok |
| 00:08.53 | mdskpr_ | hm, could there be global league teams, so all leagues used the same teams? |
| 00:09.10 | JeffM | mdskpr_, I don't see the point in that |
| 00:09.12 | TimRiker | lol. same conversations, a few new faces. |
| 00:09.29 | a_meteorite | Hey, it's TimRiker |
| 00:09.35 | JeffM | TimRiker, a bug was submited to debian to remove bzflag from apt |
| 00:09.41 | TimRiker | JeffM, feel free to start a new project. oh, I forgot you already started 3 of them and they all died. well, start another then. |
| 00:10.00 | JeffM | yeah I'll get to it when you get to karma |
| 00:10.26 | JeffM | I know what I"m able to do I'm just explaining what I'd like to do to others |
| 00:10.30 | JeffM | since it is hard to do it on your own |
| 00:10.35 | JeffM | is that a problem? |
| 00:10.39 | TimRiker | it's easy to sit there and complain. I can sit here and complain too. just don't confuse complaining with working on the issues. |
| 00:10.51 | JeffM | ok |
| 00:10.55 | TimRiker | nope, it's all fine with me. |
| 00:11.11 | JeffM | when I see work on the issues I will fully acknowlege it |
| 00:11.23 | TimRiker | heh. awesome. me too. |
| 00:11.48 | JeffM | the debian games team would like to keep bzflag, they are going to ask blast007 if he'd like to mainatin it with them |
| 00:12.06 | JeffM | I know he got some ways getting a package together but I don't know how far he got before he got frustrated with it. |
| 00:12.19 | TimRiker | nods. |
| 00:12.45 | JeffM | then came the qeustion of time so he submited the removal bug, so at least players would not be confused |
| 00:13.05 | JeffM | if he was able to get a package and a maintainer he would resubmit it for addition |
| 00:13.38 | TimRiker | there should be folks on the games team that can get a package pushed out pretty easily. I built 2.4 on ubuntu, but I don't currently have an appropriate debian box. I've got old ones, and modified one, and... but not a clean dev box. |
| 00:15.04 | JeffM | ok |
| 00:15.22 | JeffM | I am not sure how it all works, I'm just saying what I recall from memory |
| 00:15.52 | JeffM | pabs3 is here from the games team, perhaps you could discuss it with him? |
| 00:16.14 | TimRiker | just had a chat with pabs3 |
| 00:16.19 | JeffM | cool |
| 00:16.34 | JeffM | cus a package dosn't seem to be formin out of thin air :) |
| 00:17.00 | TimRiker | that's fer sure |
| 00:17.09 | pabs3 | TimRiker just joined Debian pkg-games, we would definitely be glad if blast007 or anyone else wants to join the Debian games team too |
| 00:17.21 | JeffM | a_meteorite, I would simply have the project start the admin team then let it manage its'ef |
| 00:17.29 | JeffM | and not make it up from the developers |
| 00:17.37 | JeffM | that should help prevent the favoratism |
| 00:18.15 | JeffM | mdskpr_, I'd keep the leauge teams seperate since you may want to play in more then one leauge |
| 00:19.41 | mdskpr_ | ic, cause the player bases in each league could be very different |
| 00:22.21 | a_meteorite | JeffM: that's a lot better than I thought, as long as it was a nicely balanced team |
| 00:22.44 | a_meteorite | still what we need most is motivation and effort from lots of people |
| 00:25.19 | TimRiker | handles a couple more coppa requests and then will head home. |
| 00:27.32 | blast007 | reads the scrollback |
| 00:33.59 | blast007 | TimRiker: building it on debian/ubuntu is easy - building a proper package is a bit more challenging |
| 00:34.04 | pabs3 | hi blast007 |
| 00:34.09 | blast007 | the debian directory was rather out of date |
| 00:34.16 | blast007 | hello pabs3 |
| 00:34.47 | pabs3 | lots of things to do on the package: http://packages.qa.debian.org/b/bzflag.html |
| 00:35.04 | TimRiker | mostly just be the gl/mesa dependencies that need fixing. |
| 00:35.42 | blast007 | TimRiker: nah, it was based on old standards too |
| 00:36.42 | blast007 | pabs3: some/most of those issues are fixed in SVN trunk, and I have a repo with the debian directory here: https://code.launchpad.net/~blast007/+junk/bzflag-debian-directory |
| 00:36.43 | TimRiker | nods |
| 00:37.01 | blast007 | pabs3: would you prefer this move over to OTFC/#debian-games ? |
| 00:37.11 | pabs3 | blast007: so are you interested in joining pkg-games and getting it updated? |
| 00:37.15 | blast007 | yes |
| 00:37.26 | pabs3 | excellent, lets move to #debian-games then? |
| 00:37.29 | blast007 | okay |
| 00:37.36 | TimRiker | I gotta head. life calls. on later. thanx for the interest and efforts! |
| 01:06.30 | blast007 | JeffM: do you know if we have any "source" files for our data? |
| 01:06.51 | blast007 | I'm looking at the page here: http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Games/Upstream |
| 01:07.08 | blast007 | "Pre-rendered images of layered raster images are not source." and "Pre-encoded compressed audio files are not source." |
| 01:45.41 | JeffM | what about fonts? |
| 01:45.59 | blast007 | our fonts should be fine |
| 01:46.11 | JeffM | that should be all we have |
| 01:46.14 | blast007 | and someone wasn't worried about our textures/audio either |
| 01:46.26 | JeffM | the only other thing that could happen would be shader files |
| 01:46.30 | JeffM | if those ever happen |
| 01:46.50 | JeffM | and the language translations |
| 01:47.15 | JeffM | it all really is data that is used at runtime |
| 01:47.45 | JeffM | mdskpr_, yes it would be up to each leauge to define how they want to run and what the scoring, maps, etc. would be |
| 01:47.57 | JeffM | mdskpr_, but I would charge each leauge a hosting fee of 25$ a year |
| 01:48.30 | JeffM | a_meteorite, I would have the development group and project management work up the rules and guidelines for the admin team. |
| 01:48.44 | JeffM | just to provide some checks and balances |
| 01:49.07 | JeffM | so there would be an "admin lead" just like there was a "graphics lead" |
| 01:49.39 | JeffM | bassicly a community relations manager |
| 01:50.54 | JeffM | community run servers would not use the project admin team or anything ether, it would only be for the offical servers |
| 01:51.25 | JeffM | so if you wanted to run a server your way that'd be fine, we'd list it under the "Community servers" section |
| 01:51.30 | JeffM | and peopel could join |
| 01:55.03 | a_meteorite | would any server meeting requirements be able to be an official server? |
| 01:55.09 | JeffM | no |
| 01:55.19 | JeffM | my idea dosn't have a one server = 1 game |
| 01:55.39 | JeffM | a server owner could donate resources to the project to be used as game instances for official servers |
| 01:55.46 | JeffM | like freenode does |
| 01:55.57 | JeffM | but the server team would manage what software got run on those resources |
| 01:56.10 | JeffM | I would only have 3 offiical "servers" |
| 01:56.17 | JeffM | but they would be able to host N games |
| 01:56.27 | JeffM | since each would actualy be a cloud of actual machines |
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| 01:57.10 | JeffM | leauge games would pick a physical node that had optimal lag for the teams involved for instance |
| 01:57.23 | JeffM | but everyone would still connect to the same "server" they saw in the list |
| 01:57.41 | JeffM | that server would just redirect them to the correct game node on join |
| 01:58.26 | a_meteorite | Hm |
| 01:58.42 | JeffM | it's a more scaleable system |
| 01:58.59 | blast007 | it's a system that's actually designed for internet play, not a LAN party ;) |
| 01:59.11 | JeffM | yeah I would not even care about lan stuff |
| 01:59.22 | a_meteorite | I'm sure there will be a lot of people who will want to be the one to host an official server |
| 01:59.27 | JeffM | you could have a group of people type in a lan address and connect to a local server |
| 01:59.31 | a_meteorite | Simply because it looks good |
| 01:59.44 | JeffM | a_meteorite, sure, and we'll have a policy in place like freenode has |
| 01:59.52 | JeffM | tho I don't know why it would "look good" |
| 02:00.02 | JeffM | the player would never see the domain name of your hardware |
| 02:00.05 | JeffM | just like freenode |
| 02:00.17 | JeffM | do you know who hosts the node you are connected to? |
| 02:00.33 | JeffM | or do you even care? |
| 02:00.34 | a_meteorite | Sure, if I looked up what subdomain I'm on I could find out |
| 02:00.49 | JeffM | other then a log window, did you see it anywhere? |
| 02:00.57 | JeffM | so there isn't much advertising for that |
| 02:01.02 | a_meteorite | Just saying it might turn into bragging rights |
| 02:01.12 | a_meteorite | That wouldn't be good |
| 02:01.25 | blast007 | a_meteorite: so who hosts leguin.freenode.net ? :) |
| 02:01.39 | JeffM | I think that you are putting to much of how it is now into it |
| 02:01.41 | blast007 | without using 'whois' ;) |
| 02:01.55 | JeffM | I would not even show the end user what node they connected to |
| 02:01.56 | JeffM | they don't care |
| 02:02.21 | JeffM | they just know they conencted to alpha, beta, or gama servers |
| 02:02.25 | JeffM | and it put them in a room |
| 02:02.39 | JeffM | if they want a new game, they request a room and the metaserver allocates an instance for it |
| 02:02.41 | JeffM | somewhere |
| 02:02.56 | JeffM | they get a message that tells them where to connect and the client shunts them over |
| 02:03.15 | a_meteorite | I do like the idea of this, much more modernized like games today |
| 02:03.15 | JeffM | they just sit on a loading screen during the shunt |
| 02:03.34 | JeffM | it's treating it like a MMO not a lan game |
| 02:03.34 | a_meteorite | Just always concerned about pissing matches and other drama |
| 02:03.57 | blast007 | pissing matches would be made into a proper game mode |
| 02:04.00 | JeffM | the policies for oficial servers and nodes would be clearly spelled out |
| 02:04.03 | a_meteorite | blast007: heh |
| 02:04.15 | JeffM | if you want to run your own server then fine, you go on the community tab |
| 02:04.53 | a_meteorite | I think a ranking by the community of community servers would be nice |
| 02:05.01 | JeffM | by what? |
| 02:05.03 | a_meteorite | Maybe a rating or karma system |
| 02:05.11 | a_meteorite | Just an idea |
| 02:05.12 | blast007 | you said the k word! |
| 02:05.13 | JeffM | there is no metric that would be fair |
| 02:05.27 | blast007 | maybe Tim could implement karma for us ;) |
| 02:05.33 | JeffM | I would not expect there to be many comunity servers |
| 02:05.47 | JeffM | since the people that want to play maps can just request a room on an official server |
| 02:05.59 | JeffM | you can even request private rooms |
| 02:06.06 | JeffM | password protect them |
| 02:06.36 | a_meteorite | you underestimate server owners, I would host a community server |
| 02:06.45 | JeffM | why? |
| 02:06.52 | JeffM | cus you want to win a pissing match? :) |
| 02:06.54 | JeffM | you can |
| 02:07.04 | JeffM | you won't have leauge services or any of the fancy stuff |
| 02:07.06 | JeffM | but you can |
| 02:07.19 | JeffM | not sure why people would want to go to you instead of an offical one |
| 02:07.40 | a_meteorite | High quality gameplay? |
| 02:07.45 | JeffM | what does that mean? |
| 02:07.55 | JeffM | no noobs? |
| 02:08.00 | JeffM | that's what beta server is for |
| 02:08.12 | a_meteorite | Good sane admin team, community of players, good maps |
| 02:08.12 | JeffM | only reged players that have played enough time on alpha can get into beta |
| 02:08.31 | JeffM | if the project can't be trusted why play the game? |
| 02:08.53 | JeffM | and you can have any map made and published on the officail servers, just click a button |
| 02:09.06 | a_meteorite | If it's licensed correctly |
| 02:09.11 | JeffM | again I think you are assuming too much of the current stuff |
| 02:09.12 | JeffM | yes |
| 02:09.16 | a_meteorite | Because the project would indirectly be picking admins and such, that's why |
| 02:09.21 | JeffM | a propritary map would be a valid reason |
| 02:09.35 | a_meteorite | And only certain people would have the privilege of being a hoster |
| 02:09.40 | a_meteorite | Seems like a house of cards |
| 02:09.54 | JeffM | it's not a privilage |
| 02:09.57 | a_meteorite | Depending on people to pour money into hosting nearly all the games? |
| 02:09.59 | JeffM | it's a donation of resources |
| 02:10.21 | JeffM | any project requires people to put in something |
| 02:10.44 | JeffM | thats why there would be the membership program |
| 02:10.52 | a_meteorite | Yeah, but I'm getting the hint that it would be a small group of people |
| 02:11.05 | JeffM | it would depend on how big the game got |
| 02:11.20 | JeffM | how many people run freenode? |
| 02:11.28 | JeffM | you don't run your own IRC server do you? |
| 02:11.38 | JeffM | you didn't pick any admins here |
| 02:11.40 | a_meteorite | I run my own channel |
| 02:11.46 | JeffM | that's like a room |
| 02:11.47 | blast007 | you don't host it |
| 02:11.56 | blast007 | you just join it |
| 02:12.02 | JeffM | and freenode admins can ban ANYONE in it regardless of your wishes |
| 02:12.05 | a_meteorite | Yes but for the most part I have autonomy |
| 02:12.07 | JeffM | this would be the same way |
| 02:12.16 | JeffM | yes in your own room you would also have the same thing |
| 02:12.31 | JeffM | thats what a private room would be for |
| 02:12.44 | JeffM | why do you care what machine on the interwebs hosts it? |
| 02:12.59 | JeffM | as long as you can configure it the way you want |
| 02:13.15 | a_meteorite | a private room could be hosted indefinitely and you pick the people you want to admin or...? |
| 02:13.37 | a_meteorite | is it more of a temporary, create this private room and I'm the only admin and it's only hosted as long as people are on? |
| 02:13.38 | JeffM | I would limit it to as long as people are logged into it |
| 02:13.45 | JeffM | more like the latter |
| 02:13.50 | JeffM | there would be no need for the former |
| 02:14.09 | blast007 | it's not like we're running a MMORPG with a persistent world.. |
| 02:14.12 | JeffM | each leauge would have it's own private instance that would launch |
| 02:14.15 | JeffM | as needed |
| 02:14.28 | JeffM | teams could even request training instnaces |
| 02:14.31 | JeffM | that are team only |
| 02:14.40 | JeffM | what need are you trying to fill? |
| 02:14.45 | a_meteorite | JeffM: I've had people personally tell me that they like going to my servers (or any other named server) specifically because of certain properties of that |
| 02:15.06 | a_meteorite | Be however they choose that, it kinda takes away from supporting groups you like |
| 02:15.06 | JeffM | a_meteorite, sure in bzflag's current community structure that makes sense |
| 02:15.11 | JeffM | cus there are so many other bad places |
| 02:15.23 | JeffM | in this case the default place is not as bad as a random bzflag server |
| 02:15.41 | JeffM | so that type of need would be minimized to specific gameplay needs for groups of people |
| 02:15.56 | JeffM | you are thinking too much like a bzflag server owner ;) |
| 02:16.04 | JeffM | think of it more like IRC |
| 02:16.21 | a_meteorite | Apparently. But not all modern games do what you want to do (I'm thinking of Counter-Strike Source) |
| 02:16.34 | a_meteorite | For CS:S I choose specific servers I know and love |
| 02:16.35 | JeffM | if need be we could make it easy to save and restore private room settings |
| 02:16.45 | a_meteorite | That would be quite welcome |
| 02:16.47 | JeffM | yes CS is made more like a lan game |
| 02:16.55 | JeffM | this would be more like a MMO |
| 02:17.12 | JeffM | it would not have the persitant world, but it would treat users like perminant members of the community |
| 02:17.12 | a_meteorite | Yeah, I caught the classification of skills thing |
| 02:17.56 | JeffM | subspace did a similar system to this and it worked out well |
| 02:18.13 | a_meteorite | I think though in any case this isn't gonna get done with BZFlag... would need a new BZ-inspired game |
| 02:18.23 | JeffM | and with VMs being so cheap these days a room based system would let you spread a "server" all over the world |
| 02:18.36 | JeffM | a_meteorite, this was never a plan for bzflag |
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| 02:18.48 | a_meteorite | launching servers as needed on EC2 or such would be kinda cool |
| 02:18.49 | JeffM | I said this was in the design documents for a new project |
| 02:19.01 | JeffM | EC2 is not well suited for it |
| 02:19.02 | a_meteorite | JeffM: is any of this outlined in the wiki or something? |
| 02:19.08 | JeffM | but a similar method in a private cloud would be used |
| 02:19.11 | JeffM | a_meteorite, yep |
| 02:19.16 | JeffM | not the bzflag wiki |
| 02:19.19 | JeffM | my wiki |
| 02:19.29 | a_meteorite | is it public? link? |
| 02:19.35 | JeffM | http://www.opencombat.net/wiki/wikka.php?wakka=Main |
| 02:20.17 | JeffM | the idea would be that you have a set of tierd places that people are used to going |
| 02:20.28 | JeffM | and once there they interact with a large subset of the community |
| 02:20.49 | JeffM | and the services allow them to organicly create the games they want/need |
| 02:20.53 | a_meteorite | Yeah, I do like this concept in general, the membership thing is nice too |
| 02:20.59 | JeffM | instead of a group of server owners telling them "here is what you can play now" |
| 02:21.40 | JeffM | if everyone is wanting CTF then a bunch of CTF instances are spawned |
| 02:21.49 | a_meteorite | You would need a minimum amount of players to make this work.. a critical mass I suppose. right now there's barely enough players to fill 2-3 servers at a time. |
| 02:21.51 | JeffM | and it dosn't leave a bunch of FFA instances idle |
| 02:22.11 | JeffM | well thats the point of it, if there are only enough players for a single room, so be it |
| 02:22.17 | JeffM | it can scale from one to N rooms |
| 02:22.30 | JeffM | low player counts just mean it dosn't need that much hardware |
| 02:22.43 | JeffM | you add hardware as you need more rooms |
| 02:22.46 | a_meteorite | I guess what I'm saying is the ability to do private rooms and such encourages segmentation |
| 02:23.09 | a_meteorite | And the tiered servers |
| 02:23.12 | JeffM | peoeple are going to segment on playstyle anyway |
| 02:23.27 | JeffM | this lets them segment on natural lines instead of forcing them into molds |
| 02:23.35 | a_meteorite | True I suppose |
| 02:24.09 | JeffM | and it lets people decide what sement they want to belong to on any day |
| 02:24.19 | JeffM | and lets segments evolve and change over time |
| 02:24.24 | JeffM | so it dosn't stagnate |
| 02:25.04 | JeffM | I expect most games to be played on beta server, with the people that want "high quality" on gama server |
| 02:25.22 | JeffM | tho they would move in and out as populations varied |
| 02:26.54 | a_meteorite | To be honest, I'd get behind any promising spiritual successor to BZFlag. I've been around BZ so long that I'd hate to see it die and leave a void. |
| 02:26.54 | JeffM | I would not expect anyone to play any kind of serious game on alpha server |
| 02:26.59 | JeffM | that'd be the wilds :) |
| 02:29.07 | JeffM | goes home |
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| 18:23.08 | JeffM | did the debian games team get the answers they were looking for yesterday? |
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| 19:24.36 | kierra1 | wonders why Tim simply doesn't hands the project over? |
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| 19:29.43 | kierra | hand* |
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| 20:02.04 | pabs3 | JeffM_: we did, thanks |
| 20:03.35 | pabs3 | kierra: AFAICT it already is, there are lots of people listed as admin and probably more who can commit: http://sf.net/projects/bzflag |
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| 22:04.21 | JeffM_ | pabs3, few of those people are still active |
| 22:04.32 | kierra | amen! |
| 22:04.43 | TyroneFHornigh | Many of them still lurk |
| 22:04.50 | JeffM_ | oh most lurk :) |
| 22:04.58 | JeffM_ | silly skulkers |
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| 22:05.22 | TyroneFHornigh | Of the ones listed on that page, it seems most are still around. |
| 22:05.45 | kierra | takes the pulse....she thinks they need CPR |
| 22:05.48 | JeffM | I didn't say they were gone, just not active at development |
| 22:06.07 | TyroneFHornigh | kierra: Are you offering? |
| 22:06.12 | JeffM | but who am I to talk, I've never started a project |
| 22:06.27 | kierra | sure |
| 22:06.36 | kierra | but you wouldn't like my product |
| 22:06.58 | TyroneFHornigh | I thought you were offering CPR for blast, brlcad, etc. |
| 22:07.28 | kierra | oh, I'll take brlcad in a heartbeat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
| 22:07.32 | kierra | that man is hot |
| 22:07.45 | kierra | no offense to blast, never seen him |
| 22:11.47 | JeffM | pabs3, did you find someone to join the team? |
| 22:12.02 | pabs3 | JeffM: blast007 & TimRiker |
| 22:12.06 | JeffM | cool |
| 22:12.19 | JeffM | is there an eta on the package so I can tell people who ask? |
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| 22:12.49 | pabs3 | no, blast007 already had some updates in bzr though, so probably not long |
| 22:13.13 | JeffM | and that would get into the next version of debian/ubuntu right? |
| 22:16.41 | blast007 | ubuntu is done with automatic imports from debian, now |
| 22:16.59 | blast007 | think their next freeze is at the beginning of Feb |
| 22:17.26 | JeffM | so people with existing installs will have to wait, or will it go into backports too? |
| 22:19.53 | blast007 | dunno |
| 22:20.14 | blast007 | worst case for those, we could make our own packages |
| 22:37.47 | JeffM | then karma right? |