IRC log for #bzflag on 20100220

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14:32.08CIA-88BZFlag: 03trepan * r20867 10/branches/v2_0branch/bzflag/ (5 files in 4 dirs): * shotLength backport (viewport shot tails)
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14:35.50SparkyXIWhat's the name of planet mofo's room again?
14:35.58SparkyXI*channel
14:40.58CIA-88BZFlag: 03Cobra Fast 07http://my.bzflag.org * r6944 10/w/Voice_Chat:
14:41.15CIA-88BZFlag: 03Cobra Fast 07http://my.bzflag.org * r6945 10/w/Voice_Chat:
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14:56.09CIA-88BZFlag: 03Cobra Fast 07http://my.bzflag.org * r6946 10/w/Jargon: PC (Pass Camp) added.
14:57.14SparkyXIwishes Planet Mofo would make this weekend a CTF weekend.
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15:07.31CIA-88BZFlag: 03Cobra Fast 07http://my.bzflag.org * r6947 10/w/King_of_the_Hill: Page created as stub with basic information.
15:10.02CIA-88BZFlag: 03Cobra Fast 07http://my.bzflag.org * r6948 10/w/King_of_the_Hill: Added to Category:Plug-ins
15:10.40CIA-88BZFlag: 03Cobra Fast 07http://my.bzflag.org * r6949 10/w/King_of_the_Hill:
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17:14.30blast007joevano_test: Success!
17:18.19joevanoick.. it doesn't disconnect
17:20.31blast007Fail!
17:23.49joevanoso has anyone here heard the term 'passcamp" in relation to bzflag?
17:24.22joevanoi don't want to be a jerk and remove it from the wiki if it is something I just am not aware of
17:24.29bradyes joe
17:24.48bradits mainly (only?) in leagues
17:24.51joevanois it a league thing?
17:25.00joevanoi was wondering
17:25.23JefferyMsounds like camping waiting for a flag pass
17:25.26brad1 teammate caps, another camps on enemy base and passes flag as soon as your mate caps
17:25.30bradyeah
17:25.49braddirty tactics, but it works
17:26.26JefferyMhow far can you pass a flag?
17:28.16bradthe only limit is how the map is made
17:28.45JefferyMhow do you actualy do it, I wasn't aware that there was a facility to send a map to a player?
17:29.03bradno it sends the flag to middle of the map on GU
17:29.12bradif you drop over a pyr
17:29.15JefferyMoh
17:29.16brador teleporter
17:29.17JefferyMwow
17:29.25JefferyMso it uses the rezap stuff
17:29.40JefferyMyeah that's not realy an intended tactical behavor :)
17:29.43CIA-88BZFlag: 03DonnyBaker 07http://my.bzflag.org * r6950 10/w/King_of_the_Hill: Get rid of stub and redirect to the existing page
17:29.47trepanteleporter probably won't cause flag passing with BZ 3.0
17:30.00JefferyMdoes dislike current CTF method
17:30.13trepan(and pass camping can be limited with the judicious use of zones)
17:30.24bradaw, no tele passing?
17:30.37JefferyMany reason we can't have a flag drop stick to a pyramid?
17:30.39trepannope, flag will sit on top of the tele
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17:31.00trepanJefferyM: flags pick-up detection is 2D, iirc
17:31.08JefferyMit's server side now
17:31.15trepancould change it easily then
17:31.16JefferyMwe could put some Z smarts into it
17:31.26JefferyMcylindrical at least
17:32.00JefferyMlet the flags hang out on the pyramid and then the server will give it to you if you fly over/near it
17:32.08blast007hrm. A good number of CTF maps are designed around being able to pass the flag to the middle
17:32.09trepanor under?
17:32.18JefferyMwithiun a z range, sure
17:32.36JefferyMblast007, if we wanted a passing system we'd have made a passing system ;)
17:32.55JefferyMbut also since its server side the drop/spawn/pickup can be set per map
17:33.00joevanoyeah, i would hate to get rid of passing all togother
17:33.20brad"its not a bug, its a feature!"
17:33.32joevanomaybe come up with something a little more configurable
17:33.38JefferyMusing the games ability to respawn a flag when it hits "bad" terreaint isn't a pass
17:33.50JefferyMI'd be all for a "throw flag" option
17:33.53blast007or even if a plugin can maintain the old behaviour
17:34.00JefferyMlike a football pass
17:34.11JefferyMbut a "tactical teleport" dosn't seem that well designed
17:34.19JefferyMspecialy when it's so specific
17:34.41bradwell, its still possible in 2.0 to send back to base
17:34.49JefferyMhow?
17:34.52braddepends how the map is designed
17:35.02JefferyMif the origin has no spawn
17:35.02bradI think you gotta have something in the middle
17:35.06blast007if the center of the map has an object there, it goes to the base instead
17:35.16JefferyMyeah that's not realy the way it was meant :)
17:35.36blast007or if you have safety zones for a team, the flag will fly there when dropped over a "bad" area
17:35.43JefferyMso much for game design
17:35.48trepanJefferyM: bzfs.cxx:2915,  << if (fabsf(tpos.z - fpos.z) >= 0.1f) { >>
17:36.01JefferyMwhat's tpos?
17:36.13trepanadd _flagGrabNegZ and _flagGrabPosZ ?  (or just a single value?)
17:36.14blast007tank pos and flag pos?
17:36.18trepanyup
17:36.26JefferyMI'd use a range of tank height
17:36.45JefferyMlike + 1.25h and - .25h
17:36.58JefferyMso if part of the flag goes thru tank height
17:37.02trepansounds reasonable, assuming the server-side has accurate tank height values
17:37.09JefferyMit's a var so it should
17:37.13trepanhm, height never changes, not for T or OB
17:37.26trepanonly changes for squishiness, iirc
17:37.43JefferyMso it'd only be a mod for flags that change iut
17:37.53JefferyMprobalby need a funciton "computeTankHeight" based on flag dymanics
17:38.05JefferyMgraphical squish dosn' need to play in the pickup code
17:38.27JefferyMit should be more then just a bottom Z bottom Z test
17:38.38JefferyMmaybe use the pole hight too
17:39.05JefferyMso if you get your volume within the pole, in some rad around the flag it's a pickup
17:39.17JefferyMthen all ya gotta do is "nudge" it
17:39.18trepangiven that the heights basically don't change, neg/pos would be sufficient
17:39.25JefferyMk
17:39.26trepanbut your way is probably easier for the kids  ;)
17:39.50JefferyMif it looks like you "hit" the flag, you should get it
17:40.02JefferyMthe passing thing is the more distressing thing
17:40.21JefferyMgiven that it's not really a designed feature, but it seems some emergent gamplay has happened around it
17:40.33JefferyMit's something we could easaly break
17:40.45JefferyMsince its based on a huge number of assumptions
17:41.23trepanwould you also allow flags to rest on death physics drivers?
17:41.38JefferyMthe most generic way I can see to replicate the old behavor with a feature is to have a zone that can detect when a flag is droped into it, and have that zone define repop rules
17:41.41trepanwas looking at DropGeometry.cxx ...
17:41.51JefferyMtrepan, that's a good question
17:42.09JefferyMprobably not, but I'd not move it to the origin or base, I'd move it to the closest "clean" area
17:42.24trepanditto for drops that don't have valid clearance, drivethrough, etc...
17:42.35JefferyMyeah I'd move it to closest clear
17:42.43JefferyMnot a total respawn
17:42.48JefferyMat least for team flags
17:42.58JefferyMfor supers I can undertand a reswawn
17:43.02trepanjust automatically generate safe zones then?
17:43.03JefferyMbut the team flag position MEANS something
17:43.05trepan(less change that way)
17:43.09JefferyMyeah probably
17:43.18JefferyMdoes not care about the actual tech
17:43.28JefferyMjust the behavor
17:43.54JefferyMyeah for the current pass mechanism I'd make "drop zones" that specificy a destination zone
17:44.11JefferyMand when a flag of a specific type is droped in that zone, it repops in the target zone
17:44.23JefferyMthen any map can have pass area's regardless of geometry
17:44.27JefferyMand it's all defineable
17:44.45blast007JefferyM: currently the team flags don't 'teleport'. they 'fly'. ;)
17:45.07JefferyMcan someone grab them when they are in flight?
17:45.22blast007hmm, not sure
17:45.25trepandon't think so
17:45.26blast007likely not
17:45.32JefferyMthen it's the same as a respawn
17:45.37JefferyMjust graphically different
17:46.01JefferyMso yeah that's how I'd define a feature to do what they do now
17:46.11JefferyMthen it's all very clear in the map what will happen
17:46.33JefferyMand opens up things like moving supers back to "reload" zones when the shot time is up\
17:47.01blast007I think superflags already do that
17:47.10JefferyMbut we can't just let the current mechanism go on, as we've seen it's too easy to break as it's not feature.
17:47.18JefferyMblast007, well it'd work on any drop
17:47.28JefferyMnot just a forced drop/respawn
17:47.55JefferyMtrepan has allready "broken" the beahvor for teleporters in making teleporters be better defined for collisions
17:48.14JefferyMI could see someone busting the behavor and not realising it quite easaly
17:48.20JefferyMand they'd be right to
17:48.50trepannotes that the old tele/flag behaviour can be easily reproduced
17:48.52blast007well, teleporter passing (afaik) was only recently started to be used
17:49.05blast007the usual method is dropping it onto a pyramid
17:49.21blast007that's used heavily on the Missile Wars map
17:50.38JefferyMagain same rules apply, there is nothing in the game that says "make sure that pyramids respawn to the origin beceause that's a game rule"
17:50.42trepanadd a safety zone to each base, passing problem disappears
17:50.51JefferyMit's just a "oh crap" section of the code
17:51.15JefferyMI'd rather it be a well defined feature
17:51.30JefferyMnot something that just happens to work beceause the code is writen one specific way
17:51.34blast007JefferyM: heh, well, I guess since it's been there even in 1.7 code (afaik), people assumed by now that it *was* a feature ;)
17:51.47blast007but yeah
17:51.55trepanit's already well defined, the nearest safety zone is used
17:51.59trepanbut you want finer control ...
17:52.28JefferyMwel I'm wondering what'll happen if we decide flags CAN stick to pyramids
17:52.38trepanbzfsAPI have enough hooks to do it?
17:52.47JefferyMan very possible thing if we make the pickup code more flexable
17:52.50JefferyMit may
17:53.02JefferyMbut if its' used as often as he says it is, a map feature would be called for
17:53.07JefferyMI mean I can see how it could be fun
17:53.31JefferyMand you may want to define these drop zones anywhere
17:53.36JefferyMnot just on a pyramid
17:53.48JefferyMI bet they hide superflat pyramids in places to do it now :)
17:53.54JefferyMand that's cheezy ;)
17:54.03trepanor invisible drivethrough objects
17:54.08JefferyMyeah
17:54.12blast007normal pyramids work just fine too
17:54.21JefferyMI say we make it a feature
17:54.25blast007k
17:54.27JefferyMclear and defined
17:54.51trepanadvises the use of a special meshface property for more flexibility
17:54.58trepanall game features can now be done with mesh faces
17:55.00JefferyMalso a good idea
17:55.01joevanoyep they add invisible drive through objects if they don't want you to be able to drop on a flat surface
17:55.11trepan(team bases, teleporter linkage, zones, etc...)
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17:55.24JefferyMagain the tech of how it gerts done is less important to the fact that it be a core feature that is clearly defined
17:55.51JefferyMa plugin could work but if it's done this much we should not make users implement it themeselves, or load something
17:56.17trepanbut ensuring that a plugin can adjust the behaviour would be a good thing...
17:56.21JefferyMmap's will have to be updated (by hand or using some tool ) but after that it'll be very clear
17:56.33JefferyMyeah the API should be able to remap all flag spawn behavor
17:56.38JefferyMas a general rule
17:57.07trepana "force" flag drop method that bypasses some checks would probably suffice  (as well as an improved flag drop event)
17:57.15JefferyMprobably
17:57.29JefferyMI like the idea of making the pickup be more of a cylinder too
17:57.46JefferyMthen flags could sick to pyramids and you'd have to hop to get em
17:57.48JefferyMmore of a challenge
17:58.11trepanassuming the map topology allows you to get them
17:58.17JefferyMyeah
17:58.27trepanwhich is the gotcha, this would probably break some old maps
17:58.31JefferyMmap topologoy can prbably always be made to allow for "stuck flags"
17:59.04JefferyMwell perhaps an default to make them go to the closets open area of the pyramid and an option to let em stick
17:59.12JefferyMbut not rezap them to home
17:59.20JefferyMmake em slide down :)
17:59.28trepanhave fun with it  ;)
17:59.48JefferyMyeah it's probalby not all that easy
18:00.13trepansliding flags wouldn't be that bad, easy to find the gradient
18:00.15JefferyMprecompute "Open" areas around each "undropable" objhect
18:00.21trepanray cast to find the intersection
18:00.31trepan(assuming something like a pyramid on a box)
18:01.40trepancould do add tank sliding at the some time -- who wants to open up that pile of crap?  ;)
18:01.46trepans/some/same/
18:01.53JefferyMwell something has to be done to define it as a feature or it'll be in danger of getting busted more as we go on.
18:01.59JefferyMheh
18:03.58trepanweird, i think i did do a patch for sliding tanks years ago -- apparently, my memory isn't what once it was
18:04.23trepangoes diggin'
18:11.08CIA-88BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 * r20868 10/trunk/bzflag/TODO: Add recently discovered flag drop/passing issues to todo.
18:11.16JefferyMI added what we talked about to the todo
18:11.23JefferyMadding it to the wiki now
18:11.27JefferyMoh there's CIA
18:11.29JefferyMjust a little slow
18:11.53JefferyMI think it's important to address it now before it gets broken more
18:22.26CIA-88BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 07http://my.bzflag.org * r6951 10/w/V3RCChecklist: Add info on flag pass feature, remove installer task as it is complete (enough)
18:24.55JefferyMnow to get someone to actualy do it :)
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20:57.29BulletCatcherTupone: I know it has been 6 years since r5767, but do you know why 4 trailing spaces are included in the screen resolution string in src/platform/SDLDisplay.cxx ?  (search for sprintf)
21:00.11blast007BulletCatcher: probably cuz of how Windows does stuff
21:00.29JefferyMwe can change how windows does "stuff"
21:00.30blast007the SDL stuff doesn't include color depth or refresh rate
21:00.35JefferyMyeah
21:00.41JefferyMtho we don't need it on windows anymore
21:00.47JefferyMwe can just pick the highest
21:01.01JefferyMit's kinda silly to set refresh in a world where most displays are probably LCD
21:01.37JefferyMI'm also not sure why we don't default to desktop res
21:01.58blast007picking the highest could lead to issues
21:02.09blast007not all displays tell the system what they support
21:02.16JefferyMtrue
21:02.38blast007or some LCDs will say they can do higher than optimal
21:02.42JefferyMI don't think we have to ask DX for refresh ether
21:02.42blast007refresh rate, that is
21:02.46JefferyMwe can just let it pick
21:02.51TuponeI think the space are for the refresh rate
21:03.10blast007this LCD I'm on has 75Hz as an option, and that makes my eyes hurt ;)
21:03.22JefferyMheh
21:03.32Tuponebut really is a long time ago
21:03.33JefferyMhow often is the X11 stuff used?
21:04.33JefferyMcus we can just have it default to 60
21:04.41JefferyMand let windows auto pick
21:04.44blast007SDL? or X11?
21:04.46JefferyMthen we don't need that field
21:04.48JefferyMX11
21:04.57JefferyMSDL dosn't use refresh so if we remove it, it'll be fine :)
21:05.02blast007:)
21:05.24BulletCatcherFWIW, removing it seems to work fine on Linux.
21:05.31BulletCatcher(removing the spaces)
21:05.50JefferyMI mean the resolution list with refreshes is a BIT insane ;)
21:06.14JefferyMit was fine when it went up to 800x600 as a max, but now it's silly
21:06.15TuponeBulletCatcher: even if you exit saving the choice and restarting?
21:06.24BulletCatcherTupone: Yes.
21:06.33JefferyMit shluld just be a single list list item, not it's own display
21:06.44Tuponeok, maybe things changed, or I forgot why
21:06.58blast007we could almost ditch the resolution menu and have the list of resolutions as a single item on the graphics settings menu
21:07.08JefferyMyeah that's what I'm sayin
21:07.23blast007ah, missed the word "list" in your sentence ;)
21:07.30JefferyMor just make fullscreen == desktop res
21:07.37JefferyMand other reses = window :)
21:07.51blast007well, I like having it separated
21:07.59JefferyMyou can dynamicly resize the window now right?
21:08.05blast007cuz I run my laptop at a lower resolution for bzflag cuz the video card sucks :P
21:08.12JefferyMahh
21:08.13JefferyMok
21:08.14blast007s/card/chipset/
21:08.21JefferyMif people still do that then we should change display res
21:08.34JefferyMI was just seeing if we could get away with not changing display res at all
21:10.56BulletCatcherOne of you Windows guys, what does your config file have for the "set resolution" setting?
21:11.07JefferyMstandby
21:11.14BulletCatcherThe old way, on my system is: set resolution "1400x1050    "
21:11.37JefferyMset resolution "1680x1050 @61Hz 32 bits"
21:12.07JefferyMwhy the hell is it set to that?!
21:12.55JefferyMthat's the size of display 2
21:13.03BulletCatcherThat comes from WinDisplay.cxx, so the way SDLDisplay.cxx works is irrelevant in that case.
21:13.15JefferyMyeah
21:13.27JefferyMdon't make me go back in there :/
21:13.38JefferyMfears code he wrote in 1997
21:14.30JefferyMbut if you wanted, windows could be made to only use the width and height
21:14.36JefferyMand we can auto the rest
21:15.13JefferyMmmmmm tomato soup :)
21:15.58BulletCatcherAt this point, I am only interested in the SDL file.  It sounds like there is no reason to keep the trailing spaces, so I'll update trunk and be done with it.
21:16.23JefferyMk
21:16.41JefferyMgoes back to making an authentication scheeme
21:18.41BulletCatcherhttps://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=426011 has the background if anyone is interested.  The patch they added to Fedora didn't seem to make a difference to the underlying problem.
21:19.45JefferyMis the problem that he has a crap chipset?
21:20.18BulletCatcherI'm not really sure, but SDL was returning an invalid resolution setting.
21:20.25BulletCatcherIt isn't necessarily our problem to fix.
21:20.39JefferyMyeah
21:20.50JefferyMprobably cus he has a crap driver for a crap chipset :)
21:21.51BulletCatcherMy best idea for a workaround is to put a working resolution into the config file.
21:22.28BulletCatcherAnd eliminating those extra spaces will make that easier.
21:23.01JefferyMahhh
21:23.16JefferyM"go spend 30$" is what I'd put
21:23.20BulletCatcher:-)
21:23.24JefferyMthat's why you are the nicest dev :)
21:26.39CIA-88BZFlag: 03bullet_catcher * r20869 10/trunk/bzflag/src/platform/ (LinuxDisplay.cxx SDLDisplay.cxx WinDisplay.cxx): For safety, use snprintf() instead of sprintf().
21:27.48CIA-88BZFlag: 03bullet_catcher * r20870 10/trunk/bzflag/src/platform/SDLDisplay.cxx: The trailing spaces in the display resolution string seem to be unnecessary. Remove them.
21:28.40BulletCatcherThanks for your input, guys.
21:29.22JefferyMthanks for caring about an old fedora user :)
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22:59.35JefferyMSomethin' evil's watching over you. Commin' from the sky above, there's nothin' you can do. Prepare to strike there's no place to run.....
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