| 00:03.17 | brlcad | works here |
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| 07:11.54 | a_dead_man | knock knock |
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| 10:51.16 | remote | when i run bzflag in window mode, how do I escape the mouse control? |
| 10:51.44 | remote | currently it's impossible to drag the mouse out of bzflag so even if it's in window mode i can't go to any other application in my window manager |
| 10:59.45 | delusional | in options >> input settings ... confine mouse, no |
| 11:02.18 | delusional | another mapper's trick is to find your config.cfg file, and set showCoordinates 1 |
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| 14:34.32 | kierra | brlcad esta de vacacion? |
| 14:34.41 | brlcad | kierra: nope |
| 14:34.54 | brlcad | ayer si |
| 14:35.04 | kierra | ah, esta abajo |
| 14:35.14 | brlcad | :) |
| 14:35.19 | kierra | hider |
| 14:35.23 | brlcad | gusta abajo |
| 14:35.35 | brlcad | er, le yeah |
| 14:35.39 | kierra | * le gusta abajo |
| 14:36.02 | kierra | i have another favor to ask :) |
| 14:36.20 | kierra | you are my goto man |
| 14:36.42 | brlcad | haria lo que sea para la bella kierra |
| 14:37.12 | kierra | meno should take lessons from you ;) |
| 14:58.25 | Manu | hola brlcad |
| 14:58.28 | Manu | hola kierra :) |
| 15:13.50 | kierra | hola Manu :) |
| 15:27.49 | remote | hola everyboy |
| 15:35.08 | kierra | hola remote |
| 15:35.13 | kierra | adios a todos |
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| 15:45.53 | CIA-39 | BZFlag: 03bullet_catcher * r18910 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzflag/ServerLink.cxx: Initialize the starting time for network statistics collection. |
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| 21:19.51 | ts | I need a bit help regarding replays. If I have a replay, what will happen to the lag? |
| 21:20.08 | JeffM | the server saves the packets when it gets them |
| 21:20.19 | ts | Will the bullets in the replay lag and the dodge as well in same ratio? |
| 21:20.20 | JeffM | so the client -> server lag is saved in the recording |
| 21:20.23 | JeffM | no |
| 21:20.33 | JeffM | when you replay, you get your own server -> you lag |
| 21:20.44 | JeffM | so only 1/2 the lag is saved |
| 21:21.14 | JeffM | it will not give you the exact same state unless your current server -> you lag is the same as it was when the recording was made. |
| 21:21.18 | ts | I am afraid I'm not fully understanding |
| 21:21.39 | JeffM | lets say that when the recording was made your lag to the server was 100ms |
| 21:21.50 | JeffM | but now your lag is 150ms |
| 21:21.55 | ts | hmm, ok |
| 21:22.04 | JeffM | when watching the recording, you get all the messages 50ms later |
| 21:22.18 | JeffM | so they will not appear at the same place/time they did before |
| 21:22.25 | JeffM | since they are offset by 50ms |
| 21:22.40 | JeffM | if your offset is constant, it may not matter much |
| 21:22.50 | ts | That sounds awful |
| 21:22.57 | JeffM | but there is no code to compensate for lag in bzflag |
| 21:23.24 | JeffM | yes it is, its all part of the core problem that no 2 clients ever have the same state |
| 21:23.35 | JeffM | bzflag was not meant to be played over the internet |
| 21:24.00 | ts | Is it valid to assume it'll stay the same when I watched the playing with 10ms lag and look at the replay with 10ms lag the player's positons won't change? |
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| 21:24.24 | JeffM | if your jitter is low, it's probalby not going to be that perceptable of a change |
| 21:24.49 | ts | My jitter is usually 0, or 1 at most |
| 21:24.59 | JeffM | then your lag is fairly constant |
| 21:25.19 | JeffM | then all you are seeing is an offset of what the server saw |
| 21:25.27 | JeffM | that dosn't mean thats what the recorded client saw |
| 21:25.35 | JeffM | but it's what the server saw, and some players may have seen |
| 21:26.35 | ts | The problem is when I'm looking at a scene I feel unable to interpret it |
| 21:29.11 | ts | Let's say a shooter has 50+-2ms and the target has 125+-3ms |
| 21:29.11 | JeffM | recordings are not facts |
| 21:29.11 | JeffM | I would not use them for what I know you are trying to use them for |
| 21:29.11 | JeffM | just make your descion on your gut and go with it, don't try to "prove" anything with science |
| 21:29.11 | JeffM | the core problem is you do not know the lag for each packet |
| 21:29.11 | JeffM | so there is always a possiblitly that ONE packet is off by something |
| 21:29.12 | ts | I'm wondering about when I see the target being inside the shot vector (it would hit without lag) approx 160ms. |
| 21:29.12 | JeffM | we don't do per message lag |
| 21:29.29 | JeffM | how can you be sure that the person being shot saw themselves inside the shot vector? |
| 21:30.07 | ts | Target started to dodge and was pretty far away |
| 21:30.30 | JeffM | that dosn't answer the question |
| 21:30.41 | JeffM | is there any way that recording can tell you that the person's client knew it had goten hit? |
| 21:31.00 | ts | Knowing is impossible. I can't see the person's screen. |
| 21:31.04 | JeffM | exactly |
| 21:31.24 | JeffM | all you have is a recording of lagy packets, that your client is then also applying DR to |
| 21:31.36 | JeffM | it will not tell you anything conclusive |
| 21:31.43 | JeffM | it can just help you guess |
| 21:31.47 | ts | It's a fair guess someone sees the shot when it's obvious he tries to avoid the bullet |
| 21:31.57 | JeffM | yeah it is |
| 21:33.15 | ts | Hmm, the shots may lag as well in the replay, right? |
| 21:33.41 | JeffM | every message may |
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| 21:33.48 | ts | or they could be shot faster than I see |
| 21:34.07 | JeffM | dpending on the instnat lag of each message sure |
| 21:34.26 | JeffM | all you have is a recording of when the server got each message |
| 21:34.36 | JeffM | replay will send those back out on that same timing |
| 21:35.31 | ts | I got the impression that the timing might be completly wrong in the replay. |
| 21:35.31 | JeffM | wrong from who's perspective? |
| 21:35.37 | JeffM | wrong from when the other clients realy did receive the message? |
| 21:35.45 | JeffM | wrong from what the sender sent it? |
| 21:36.00 | JeffM | I belive they are accurate from when the server got them |
| 21:36.03 | JeffM | that is it |
| 21:36.18 | JeffM | once they leave the server, it has no say over how long they take |
| 21:36.51 | ts | Wrong in the way that it can't resemble what happened for the target |
| 21:37.08 | JeffM | it can't |
| 21:37.15 | JeffM | it won't ever be exactly the same |
| 21:37.32 | JeffM | you can not expect a replay to show a client watching it, exactly what any other client saw |
| 21:37.37 | JeffM | during the real event |
| 21:37.50 | JeffM | heck, all the clients during the real event saw something slightly differnet anyway |
| 21:37.55 | JeffM | that's the nature of our networking system |
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| 21:38.27 | JeffM | all you are seeing is what it would have looked like to you if you had been connected to the server with your current lag, at the time of the event. |
| 21:38.34 | ts | I see, that means the actual game works exactly the same (with limitation to observers connections)? |
| 21:38.55 | JeffM | I do not understand that statement |
| 21:39.05 | JeffM | the gamestate for every connected user is different |
| 21:39.35 | JeffM | if we are both on the same server, where I see a shot right now is not where you see the same shot at the same real time |
| 21:40.48 | ts | That's obvious because of network lag my packet telling I shot takes a while to reach server and a while to reach you from server. |
| 21:40.48 | JeffM | well that and the fact that we don't lag comp the shot |
| 21:40.53 | JeffM | when I shoot, I start the shot at my XY |
| 21:40.56 | JeffM | and move it |
| 21:41.12 | ts | "move it"? |
| 21:41.14 | JeffM | when you get the shot, 100ms later you add it to your world at that XY and move it |
| 21:41.21 | JeffM | give it a velocity and update it every frame |
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| 21:41.52 | JeffM | so at +100MS, your shot is at XY but mine has moved for 100MS and is now at a different XY |
| 21:43.06 | ts | your shot would be nearer to me (in assumption I'm far away) |
| 21:43.33 | JeffM | on my screen yeah |
| 21:43.39 | JeffM | so on my screen I see the shot go thru you |
| 21:43.46 | JeffM | but on your screen it hasn't |
| 21:43.57 | JeffM | My eyes say you should be dead |
| 21:44.01 | JeffM | but your client says no |
| 21:44.05 | ts | Hrm, the more I think about that kind of world state, the more I feel like it's a pretty bad joke |
| 21:44.05 | JeffM | and you move out of the way |
| 21:44.27 | JeffM | again, bzflag was NOT writen with the internet and high letency in mind |
| 21:44.39 | JeffM | it was intended for the latency to be close to the frame rate |
| 21:44.44 | JeffM | where none of this matters |
| 21:44.57 | ts | heh, as if I didn't know what it was written for :) |
| 21:45.17 | ts | I'm just screwed with understanding how things work |
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| 21:46.54 | JeffM | it's very simple to see how bzflag works |
| 21:46.54 | ts | e.g. I don't see how much "too late" I could dodge without being shot |
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| 21:46.58 | JeffM | what you can not do is make the assumption that a recording will give you any kind of "fact" about what a client may have seen |
| 21:46.58 | JeffM | there is no way for you to know where that shot would have been on that guy's screen |
| 21:47.00 | JeffM | so you can only make a guess |
| 21:47.00 | ts | When it comes to interpretation in practical cases I've major problems |
| 21:47.27 | JeffM | the use of recordings for what you are doing is stupid IMHO |
| 21:47.27 | JeffM | watch the guy live, and make a choice based on your gut |
| 21:47.27 | JeffM | don't try to use math and scient to solve a social problem |
| 21:47.45 | Fiberchunks | says "Stand back, JeffM is going to attempt science!" |
| 21:47.47 | JeffM | if he realy is causing a problem to the game, then boot him, it dosn't matter what the techincal reason is. |
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| 21:48.12 | JeffM | Fiberchunks, not in all cases :) |
| 21:48.30 | Fiberchunks | heh |
| 21:48.30 | ts | "I don't like the way you dodge shots" isn't a very good reason for a ban, in my humble opionion |
| 21:48.31 | JeffM | if we were sure we had a lag compensating client |
| 21:48.42 | JeffM | ts then he isn't causing a game breaking problem, and drop it |
| 21:48.47 | JeffM | at that point it's a waste of your time |
| 21:49.32 | JeffM | I mean unless you just want to be a petty and vengfull bastard |
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| 21:50.37 | Winny | http://lbrandy.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/jpg_vs_png.png |
| 21:50.39 | Winny | hehehe |
| 21:51.36 | ts | I've been swearing so much behind my desk when I constantly shoot through laggy opponents and they begin to dodge after my shot has gone through, I just want to get a rough idea of where they see the actual bullet |
| 21:51.54 | JeffM | ts have you tried decafinated coffie? |
| 21:52.18 | ts | heh |
| 21:52.26 | JeffM | if you see them dodge after you shoot them, then it is that exact case I described |
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| 21:52.37 | JeffM | since it takes THERE motions there lag + your lag to get back to you |
| 21:52.58 | JeffM | you probalby look exactly the same to them |
| 21:53.11 | ts | I usually play with strong emotions (but I don't message them) |
| 21:53.23 | JeffM | it's a game, you should chill out |
| 21:53.35 | Fiberchunks | bzflag, ftw! yarrrrrrr! |
| 21:53.41 | JeffM | the game you want to play has lag compensation |
| 21:53.48 | JeffM | so you can be fairly sure that what you see is what they see |
| 21:54.00 | ts | The game must work the very way you wrote..just hoped for a little hint of where my bullets might be |
| 21:54.23 | JeffM | in a lag compensated game, when you get my shot message, you don't just put the shot down at XY, you know it's been in transit for 100ms, and advance it the same distance I did, then add it |
| 21:54.31 | JeffM | then our 2 shots are in the same place at the same time. |
| 21:56.03 | ts | That case would be "interesting" with high lag from the shooter :) |
| 21:56.19 | JeffM | true, he may just see the shot "appear" right in front of him |
| 21:56.27 | JeffM | but that's his fault for being a laggy bastard |
| 21:56.47 | ts | Hmm? |
| 21:57.07 | JeffM | lets say that you have a lag of 500ms |
| 21:57.08 | ts | I thought the shooter would be the lagger, not the victim |
| 21:57.21 | JeffM | depends who has the lag :) |
| 21:57.27 | JeffM | lets say you have 500ms lag right? |
| 21:57.40 | JeffM | and you are 495ms away from me in "shot time" |
| 21:57.41 | ts | Hmm, ok :) |
| 21:57.44 | JeffM | I shoot |
| 21:58.01 | JeffM | or wait, lets say you are 550 ms away from me in shot time |
| 21:58.06 | JeffM | I shoot |
| 21:58.14 | JeffM | 500ms later you get the shot message |
| 21:58.30 | JeffM | your client says "oh it's been shot for 500ms, let me put the shot where it would be now" |
| 21:58.36 | JeffM | and it moves the shot 50ms away from you |
| 21:58.54 | JeffM | so right then, BAM, you see a shot appear right next to you |
| 21:59.00 | JeffM | you don't have time to dodge it, and you die |
| 21:59.12 | JeffM | but on my screen I saw the shot travel the entire distance |
| 21:59.17 | JeffM | you just didn't move |
| 21:59.31 | JeffM | because your lag is so high you are at a disadvantage |
| 21:59.41 | ts | The same thing would work exactly the other way around |
| 21:59.43 | JeffM | yeah |
| 21:59.56 | JeffM | but at least eveyrone has the shot in the same place |
| 22:00.07 | JeffM | it dosn't solve every one of our problems |
| 22:00.14 | JeffM | but it at least makes more of them constant |
| 22:00.47 | JeffM | based on the shot and tank speeds there would be a "playable" max lag |
| 22:00.50 | ts | I wonder, would that kind of logic be feasible and wanted for the svn trunk version? |
| 22:01.00 | JeffM | that is in trunk now |
| 22:01.16 | JeffM | the Z axis for DR is busted tho |
| 22:01.21 | ts | Jeez, and I didn't notice :o |
| 22:01.29 | JeffM | it's been in for over a year |
| 22:01.58 | brlcad | ciao Manu |
| 22:02.00 | JeffM | MsgWhatTimeIsIt works to create a server side synced clock, and each client stamps shots and movement updates with the server time |
| 22:02.23 | JeffM | so we have a constant stamp to compensate on |
| 22:02.40 | ts | Z-axis..hmm, just thinking of what it is in bzflag's coordinate system. Is BZFlag turned at an angle and uses right-hand? |
| 22:02.45 | JeffM | Up |
| 22:02.55 | JeffM | yes we use right hand rule |
| 22:03.00 | ts | Ah thanks |
| 22:03.01 | JeffM | and Z is up |
| 22:03.21 | JeffM | there is a double comp somewhere in the Z DR |
| 22:03.24 | JeffM | branch has it |
| 22:03.33 | ts | Was just putting my hand in some "funny" position and playing with my fingers to get the figure right :) |
| 22:03.36 | JeffM | it just seems to show up worse in trunk due to the lag comp |
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| 22:05.00 | ts | Well, haven't seen anyone playing at trunk for a looong time |
| 22:05.13 | L4m3r | woo, my shirts have shipped! :) |
| 22:05.22 | JeffM | that it did L4m3r |
| 22:05.34 | JeffM | I just have 2 more packages to send out and they will all be done |
| 22:05.42 | me1 | ya |
| 22:05.43 | me1 | yay |
| 22:05.51 | JeffM | yours went too IIRC |
| 22:06.00 | me1 | sweet |
| 22:06.03 | JeffM | I just have Temp distractions, and Winny's to ship |
| 22:06.27 | JeffM | they will go tomorow |
| 22:07.29 | Thumper_ | JeffM: do you have any medium size green shirts? |
| 22:07.35 | JeffM | nope |
| 22:07.47 | JeffM | we did not order any extra in any color other then chestnut |
| 22:07.51 | JeffM | hence the preorder |
| 22:08.02 | Thumper_ | ok thx. can you ping me for the next preorder? |
| 22:08.12 | JeffM | Thumper_, nope there is no way I will remember |
| 22:08.14 | ts | Thanks for the explanation Jeff |
| 22:08.20 | Thumper_ | fair enough :) |
| 22:08.22 | JeffM | you can sign up to be notified at the store for product updates |
| 22:08.32 | Thumper_ | goes to look |
| 22:08.32 | JeffM | I send out a newsletter before we do any preorders |
| 22:08.45 | JeffM | ts, sure thing I hope it helped |
| 22:09.10 | ts | Yes, I do now realize measuring is a no-go |
| 22:11.18 | Thumper_ | JeffM: thx. that'll work. |
| 22:11.27 | Thumper_ | totally missed the last round of orders |
| 22:13.20 | JeffM | I do have one XXL in prarie dust that is extra |
| 22:13.27 | JeffM | it is the awesome one |
| 22:13.39 | JeffM | I totaly should have done all of them in that clor |
| 22:14.13 | Thumper_ | XXL is kinda big for my 7yr old :) |
| 22:14.22 | Thumper_ | sure he'll grow into it... someday maybe |
| 22:14.22 | Fiberchunks | grow into it :) |
| 22:14.27 | Fiberchunks | heh |
| 22:15.29 | JeffM | this is the chestnut one |
| 22:15.30 | JeffM | http://picasaweb.google.com/JeffM2501/Shirts#5267479931372258514 |
| 22:15.42 | JeffM | but this is the dust one, http://picasaweb.google.com/JeffM2501/Shirts#5267479931372258514 |
| 22:15.52 | JeffM | mill green came out good too |
| 22:16.38 | JeffM | misses his sand hoodie :( |
| 22:18.34 | Thumper_ | JeffM: those links are identical |
| 22:18.47 | brlcad | still thinks it looks a bit like BZAag |
| 22:18.53 | JeffM | hit next |
| 22:19.02 | Thumper_ | :) |
| 22:19.10 | JeffM | yeah probably should have put some more space in the F and L |
| 22:19.25 | JeffM | good thing this was our smallest order |
| 22:20.26 | JeffM | I'm not sure how I feel about the contest Idea as a whole |
| 22:20.30 | brlcad | the hoodies are the best |
| 22:20.42 | JeffM | the one for LH went out today |
| 22:20.49 | JeffM | sent it to the googleplex |
| 22:20.52 | brlcad | really, why? |
| 22:21.06 | brlcad | liked the contest -- got folks interested and working |
| 22:21.08 | JeffM | the turn out wasn't as a good as a I hoped |
| 22:21.09 | brlcad | just needed "more" |
| 22:21.14 | JeffM | it was a lot of work |
| 22:21.25 | JeffM | I think some feelings got hurt |
| 22:21.40 | JeffM | and the fact that we were prety much commited to using ONE of the submited designs |
| 22:22.25 | JeffM | I'd like to formalise a few more things before we do another one |
| 22:22.28 | brlcad | all the more reason to host it again and give others a chance, maybe stipulate that past winners can't win consecutively |
| 22:22.30 | JeffM | but I'm not against another one |
| 22:22.41 | JeffM | yeah maybe |
| 22:22.49 | brlcad | yeah, I think a little more formality would have gone a long ways |
| 22:22.55 | brlcad | more advance notice of the competition |
| 22:23.05 | JeffM | a better timeline on it all |
| 22:23.37 | JeffM | the money part went smother then I had figured it would, so that's good |
| 22:24.02 | JeffM | I do wish we had vector art tho |
| 22:24.28 | JeffM | the raster to vector they did has a few small errors in a couple places |
| 22:24.29 | brlcad | knowing a couple months in advance, throw in some prizes for the top three to spread the love, formal timeline and rules, sample submission "packet" |
| 22:24.45 | JeffM | yeah |
| 22:25.12 | JeffM | have to see how long it'll take to sell out of these |
| 22:25.20 | JeffM | we still have a few blues left |
| 22:27.12 | JeffM | we got 0 international pre-orders this time |
| 22:27.58 | AAA_awright | Ohh, did anyone notice the new sf.net tracker? |
| 22:28.25 | AAA_awright | When did they put that out? Usually they note updates in an email... |
| 22:29.20 | JeffM | they need a color and design class |
| 22:29.32 | JeffM | orange + white + lime green... WTF? |
| 22:29.50 | brlcad | AAA_awright: they sent out an e-mail saying there's a new site status section to the site with feeds |
| 22:29.50 | AAA_awright | Hm, nvm, they sent out the email two months ago |
| 22:29.55 | brlcad | so you have to ask for the updates |
| 22:30.23 | brlcad | but yeah, the next tracker has been fully in place for several months, was in beta like 6 months ago |
| 22:39.14 | *** join/#bzflag BlueEyes (n=4f10c8f8@static-ip-62-75-165-247.inaddr.intergenia.de) |
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| 23:11.27 | CIA-39 | BZFlag: 03trepan * r18911 10/branches/trepan/: * removing before bitrot start to stink up the joint |
| 23:17.29 | brlcad | bah |
| 23:17.50 | trepan | bah? |
| 23:20.09 | brlcad | s/b// |
| 23:21.11 | a_meteorite | s/bah/\/b\// |
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| 23:31.14 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v spldart] by ChanServ |
| 23:31.38 | trepan | s/$/, bah, black sheep, have you any wool?/ |
| 23:32.43 | me1 | yes sir, yes sir, three bags full |
| 23:35.59 | AAA_awright | s/\?/\\\?/ |
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| 23:37.31 | me1 | now you're just adding random \'s |
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| 23:56.52 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v bryjen] by ChanServ |
| 23:58.05 | a_meteorite | me1: you need a \ to escape a \... thus \\ |
| 23:58.23 | a_meteorite | I ... think ... escaping gets complicated very fast :) |
| 23:58.29 | me1 | heh |
