| 00:00.53 | blast007 | QuantumZ: did you read them yet? |
| 00:01.17 | blast007 | my name should show up next to #bzflag on your channel tab list |
| 00:02.50 | QuantumZ | the messages about me cpying other peoples names? |
| 00:03.33 | blast007 | yes |
| 00:03.34 | blast007 | those |
| 00:08.09 | QuantumZ | at quols ductai style we have having weird problems |
| 00:08.33 | QuantumZ | server is mdisconnceting and spawns are going out of zone it crazy |
| 00:08.46 | QuantumZ | come down here check it out |
| 00:17.07 | *** join/#bzflag CBG (n=CBG@cpc2-stme1-0-0-cust307.cdif.cable.ntl.com) |
| 00:18.37 | *** join/#bzflag CBG (n=CBG@cpc2-stme1-0-0-cust307.cdif.cable.ntl.com) |
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| 00:25.34 | QuantumZ | thats the problem i chose this one on my own without "trying or atttempting"to steal someone elses |
| 00:26.33 | QuantumZ | ni watched the movie quantum man and herad about a show called zin the allien boy |
| 00:26.58 | QuantumZ | srry poor typing for me : ( |
| 00:27.16 | CBG | Sorru? |
| 00:28.35 | QuantumZ | huh? |
| 00:28.44 | JeffM | exactly |
| 00:28.56 | CBG | Exactly. |
| 00:29.09 | QuantumZ | exacly |
| 00:29.20 | QuantumZ | nexactly poor typing : ( |
| 00:29.32 | QuantumZ | it a new word nexactly |
| 00:29.40 | CBG | Oh dear lord... |
| 00:29.46 | spldart | What? |
| 00:29.48 | QuantumZ | means cheese with ham |
| 00:30.03 | spldart | Zin the alien boy sounds to close to the Invader Zim concept |
| 00:30.06 | QuantumZ | lol CBG is going family guy on us |
| 00:30.18 | QuantumZ | nyea thats what i meant |
| 00:30.30 | spldart | nstop n'ing |
| 00:30.45 | QuantumZ | i just didnt want to put a m there |
| 00:30.46 | CBG | Stop talking completely. |
| 00:30.55 | QuantumZ | -_- |
| 00:31.04 | CBG | No, I mean it. |
| 00:31.13 | QuantumZ | oh ok.. |
| 00:31.50 | JeffM | quantumZ mostyly you just arn't making any sense |
| 00:32.06 | QuantumZ | :P |
| 00:32.14 | spldart | He sounds more 'under the influence' than I am. |
| 00:32.25 | QuantumZ | nswergart noodles does that help?-_- |
| 00:32.30 | spldart | Please Quantum.. it's a dev channel and this is the wrong place for that. |
| 00:32.34 | CBG | He sounds about 10 years too young to be under the influence. |
| 00:32.43 | spldart | Prolly true. |
| 00:32.54 | QuantumZ | ok i'll stp talking |
| 00:32.59 | spldart | Thank you. |
| 00:46.27 | blast007 | QuantumZ: I find that story hard to believe |
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| 03:02.55 | Flash | do we even pretend to support IPv6? |
| 03:06.06 | a_meteorite | shush don't leak such secrets |
| 03:18.36 | Flash | can anyone defend NetHandler::whoIsAtIP ? |
| 03:19.12 | Flash | it is currently used to kick/ban a player who changed nick while a poll was in progress by matching IP address |
| 03:19.26 | Flash | seems bad, because multiple players can (and do) use the same IP address |
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| 04:59.16 | BulletCatcher | Flash: NetHandler::whoIsAtIP() is used only if the banned/kicked player's original callsign cannot be found. Since banning is usually done by IP address, multiple players on a single IP address will be affected anyway. |
| 04:59.17 | BulletCatcher | For a kick, if the kickee has quit and rejoined that has the same effect, so I see no point in trying quite so hard to do it forcefully. |
| 05:00.40 | Flash | so you agree that it could/should be removed? |
| 05:01.22 | BulletCatcher | My vote would be to keep it for banning, but not for kicking. |
| 05:01.40 | Flash | why? as you pointed out, bans are usually by IP address anyway |
| 05:01.48 | JeffMMain | but they are not always |
| 05:01.53 | JeffMMain | there are hostmask and ID bans |
| 05:02.01 | JeffMMain | kicks should only kill the one connection for the playerID |
| 05:02.16 | JeffMMain | regardless of how many other IDs share the IP |
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| 05:05.36 | BulletCatcher | Okay, for a ban the only consequence of not using NetHandler::whoIsAtIP() would be that the banned user would not see the vote result message. I assume the ban -- whatever form -- will still take effect. |
| 05:06.13 | BulletCatcher | So yes, I agree that there is no reason to use whoIsAtIP(). |
| 05:06.38 | Flash | I don't think that's quite right |
| 05:07.34 | Flash | (first, I think whoIsAtIP is broken; it only finds closed NetHandlers) |
| 05:08.15 | Flash | but it can remove a player whose NetHandler matches the IP of the poll target |
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| 05:13.00 | BulletCatcher | I suspect the lack of a ! on the closed check is a typo. |
| 05:13.11 | Flash | me too |
| 05:14.13 | Flash | but more to the point, I think it is a logic error to assume that there is only one player at a given IP address |
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| 05:14.34 | Flash | and that is what that function does |
| 05:14.38 | BulletCatcher | There *is* a ! on the test in 2.0.x. It's a bug. |
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| 05:16.02 | BulletCatcher | Well, if a vote was successful the code wants to ban/kick *someone*, but you have convinced me it is a bit overzealous. |
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| 05:20.20 | BulletCatcher | What I still wonder is: if we don't call removePlayer() from doVoteArbiter(), will a ban be executed somewhere else? |
| 05:20.39 | Flash | removePlayer *is* called |
| 05:21.05 | Flash | the whoIsAtIP call was in another block that tried to find the player |
| 05:21.15 | Flash | oh... if the player isn't found until then |
| 05:21.23 | Flash | if he isn't found, he doesn't need to be removed |
| 05:22.07 | Flash | I think the real ban happens in clOptions->acl.ban(realIP,...) |
| 05:22.36 | BulletCatcher | It shouldn't be too hard to set up a test. |
| 05:23.29 | BulletCatcher | We would just need a 3rd registered player to enable voting. |
| 05:24.38 | Flash | and a 4th player to be banned |
| 05:25.08 | BulletCatcher | I have a 2nd computer from which I can provide the evil player. |
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| 05:27.59 | CIA-35 | BZFlag: 03jwmelto * r18096 10/branches/v2_99_net_branch/ (3 files in 3 dirs): |
| 05:27.59 | CIA-35 | BZFlag: remove NetHandler::whoIsAtIP. It is based on an invalid assumption that only |
| 05:27.59 | CIA-35 | BZFlag: one player is using a given IP (it really should return a collection of matches) |
| 05:27.59 | CIA-35 | BZFlag: and it's only use in the code was suspect. |
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| 10:49.35 | Wyk3d | Is it a problem if I store the session tokens in memory only ? It will be lost if/when the server restarts, but it could later be replicated to other daemons. The worst thing that can happen is a player has to auth again after the server restarts. Why not store it in LDAP? That's meant for frequent reads not updates. It will be much more efficient if stored in memory. |
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| 14:01.28 | BulletCatcher | Wyk3d: Players will be unhappy if they have to manually reauthenticate just because the auth server restarts, but if it can be done without their interaction (because the client has the password) then they shouldn't notice. |
| 14:01.30 | BulletCatcher | If you'll include appropriate calls to subroutines such as saveTokenToCache() and loadTokensFromCache(), but leave them unimplemented, then it will be easy to add token persistence later if necessary. |
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| 17:04.30 | randomparticle | what do you think about take mouse input directly from the mouse? |
| 17:05.06 | randomparticle | i.e., bypassing the OS pointer warbling |
| 17:05.40 | randomparticle | there's code for it here: http://icculus.org/manymouse/ |
| 17:07.09 | JeffM | doubt it would change gameplay that much, and would just add an extra complexity layer |
| 17:07.29 | JeffM | and I don't see the SGI and SUN hardwares on there |
| 17:07.38 | randomparticle | atm bzflag feels completely different under different OSs because they use different mouse smoothing/acceleration |
| 17:08.00 | JeffM | well that's because we don't do anything to standardise the input |
| 17:08.02 | JeffM | that I want to fix |
| 17:08.06 | randomparticle | it could be as is for those. hardly anyone uses sgi/sun anyway |
| 17:08.13 | JeffM | not just for the mouse |
| 17:08.25 | JeffM | I don't think it's an API problem but just in how we use the input |
| 17:08.38 | JeffM | you can get the SAME OS to feel different just by setting the OS |
| 17:08.54 | randomparticle | yeah |
| 17:08.54 | randomparticle | many games have these settings in-game |
| 17:08.59 | JeffM | yes, we need them |
| 17:09.05 | JeffM | for all our input |
| 17:09.35 | JeffM | it's an interesting idea, but I think you are going too low level from the get go |
| 17:10.01 | JeffM | cus we have similar problems with joysticks too |
| 17:10.08 | randomparticle | hmm.. i'm not sure it's so low-level. it's not kernel level :) |
| 17:10.16 | JeffM | randomparticle, it's one above that |
| 17:10.19 | randomparticle | brb phone |
| 17:10.49 | randomparticle | back |
| 17:10.59 | JeffM | also OS Swapers are probably also rare, so there arn't many people that have this problem |
| 17:12.35 | randomparticle | i use my own cursor manipulator to avoid the OS X acceleration problem |
| 17:12.58 | randomparticle | most people who use OS X use some weird driver or other. that shouldn't be necessary |
| 17:13.05 | JeffM | good for you |
| 17:13.22 | randomparticle | the OS acceleration curves are designed for desktop use. not for games |
| 17:13.39 | randomparticle | just as in XP. that's why many turn off "enhance pointer precision" |
| 17:13.51 | randomparticle | that's why people are buying really expensive mice |
| 17:14.00 | randomparticle | G5's etc |
| 17:14.28 | randomparticle | bzflag shouldn't be about who has the best mouse or best driver |
| 17:14.38 | JeffM | indeed |
| 17:14.42 | JeffM | or the best joystick |
| 17:14.46 | randomparticle | yep |
| 17:14.50 | JeffM | hence why I'd like general solution in game |
| 17:15.01 | JeffM | mostly we need to apply acceleration limits to all input |
| 17:15.03 | JeffM | even keys |
| 17:15.21 | randomparticle | i'd be willing to work the manymouse code into bzflag if anyone's interested |
| 17:15.30 | randomparticle | it's under the fairly liberal zlib license |
| 17:15.41 | JeffM | I would not want it untill AFTER we did our in game stuff and found that failing |
| 17:15.51 | randomparticle | ok |
| 17:16.06 | randomparticle | the in-game stuff is? |
| 17:16.13 | JeffM | not writen yet |
| 17:16.29 | randomparticle | sorry. i'm not sure what you're referring to exactly |
| 17:17.06 | JeffM | redoing the entire input system to have per axis senstitivy settings, and have the tank motion be based of acceleration values and a system to display that |
| 17:17.16 | JeffM | acceleration of the tank not the input |
| 17:17.25 | randomparticle | i see |
| 17:17.26 | JeffM | cus if you look at it, keyboard is max input acceleration |
| 17:17.33 | JeffM | you can go from +1 to -1 in a single frame |
| 17:17.35 | randomparticle | yeah |
| 17:17.45 | JeffM | I want to get rid of the cursor |
| 17:17.56 | JeffM | and turn the outter mousebox into a U shaped controll |
| 17:18.09 | randomparticle | sounds interesting |
| 17:18.13 | JeffM | where the vertical sides shows your actual speed and input speed |
| 17:18.30 | JeffM | so you get a mark for where you want to be, and a bar that fills in for where you are ( at the acceleration rate) |
| 17:18.38 | JeffM | same for the lower bar for turning |
| 17:18.45 | JeffM | then the center actualy becomes a gunsight |
| 17:18.57 | JeffM | then we have the same input tracking system for all input modes |
| 17:19.18 | JeffM | and it dosn't really matter how fast your input moves, as you will be ballenced by the physical properties of the tank and can see it |
| 17:19.30 | randomparticle | is this going to change the feel of the game completely? |
| 17:19.46 | randomparticle | am struggling to imagine it |
| 17:19.50 | JeffM | it will be the same as if -a is on in 2.0 |
| 17:19.53 | JeffM | it will look different |
| 17:20.02 | JeffM | but once you get used to the controll it will play the same |
| 17:20.08 | JeffM | you will sill move your mose in the same way |
| 17:20.12 | JeffM | mouse |
| 17:20.42 | JeffM | you just won't have to visualy compute where the mouse is in the box to figure your speed |
| 17:20.59 | JeffM | and the center will be unobstructed for shooting |
| 17:21.07 | JeffM | it should be better in the long run |
| 17:21.20 | JeffM | and look MORE like a tank's interface would |
| 17:21.30 | JeffM | also gets rid if the stupid cursor over the menus |
| 17:21.43 | JeffM | cursors are for pointing and clicking, not driving |
| 17:21.52 | randomparticle | yeah |
| 17:22.46 | randomparticle | the -a thing |
| 17:23.00 | randomparticle | what's that may i ask? |
| 17:23.08 | JeffM | I prefer that system beause then the thing that equalises it is the game logic (with tank acceleration ) not input logic |
| 17:23.19 | randomparticle | the acc limit? |
| 17:23.23 | JeffM | yeah |
| 17:23.27 | randomparticle | i see |
| 17:23.28 | JeffM | 2.0.x it was optional |
| 17:23.32 | JeffM | in 3 it's manditory |
| 17:23.59 | JeffM | having tanks that can flip dirs in a single frame causes lots of problems |
| 17:24.02 | JeffM | mostly with DR |
| 17:24.03 | randomparticle | different units? |
| 17:24.17 | JeffM | IIRC it's WU/S/S |
| 17:24.20 | randomparticle | because a typical server might have, say, 38 50 |
| 17:24.40 | JeffM | yeah it's up to the server |
| 17:24.46 | randomparticle | 2.0 seems an awful lot smaller than either of those :) |
| 17:24.58 | JeffM | 2.0's default is 0 |
| 17:25.00 | JeffM | it was optional |
| 17:25.14 | randomparticle | ah, bz 2.0. got it |
| 17:25.22 | randomparticle | friday syndrome |
| 17:25.28 | JeffM | what other 2.0 would I be talking about? ;) |
| 17:26.26 | randomparticle | so it's mandatory, but can be set to any value? |
| 17:26.36 | JeffM | there is a lower bound IIRC |
| 17:26.37 | randomparticle | in 3.0.x that is |
| 17:26.58 | randomparticle | ok. what sort of numbers are we talking about? |
| 17:27.14 | JeffM | I don't know off the top of my head, you'd have to go look |
| 17:27.20 | randomparticle | ok. nvm |
| 17:27.38 | randomparticle | i'd still say the input thing is worthwhile |
| 17:27.43 | randomparticle | even if acc is capped |
| 17:27.56 | JeffM | it ma be, but I'd still want to wait till after that was all done |
| 17:28.00 | JeffM | may be |
| 17:28.05 | randomparticle | ok |
| 17:28.36 | randomparticle | i think linux has the best mouse system |
| 17:28.46 | randomparticle | mainly because it's not very sophisticated :) |
| 17:28.52 | JeffM | ummm ok... |
| 17:28.54 | JeffM | good for it |
| 17:29.01 | randomparticle | it's linear in most cases, which is what gamers generally want |
| 17:29.30 | randomparticle | no registry hacks, no special acceleration off driver options, etc etc |
| 17:29.38 | JeffM | again, good for it |
| 17:31.08 | randomparticle | you can often tell which mouse someone is using by observing their playing style |
| 17:31.22 | randomparticle | the G5s are very obvious in some cases |
| 17:31.57 | randomparticle | twitch-fest :) |
| 17:32.14 | JeffM | perhaps they are using keyboards |
| 17:32.31 | randomparticle | keyboard players tend to be slower |
| 17:32.36 | randomparticle | it's physiological |
| 17:32.42 | JeffM | fun |
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| 17:33.43 | randomparticle | i noticed that there's a 4000dpi mouse now |
| 17:34.03 | randomparticle | i can't imagine why 4000dpi would be necessary |
| 17:34.11 | JeffM | drawing |
| 17:34.25 | randomparticle | what's the smallest distance you could move a mouse by hand? |
| 17:34.36 | JeffM | when drawing, very small |
| 17:34.40 | randomparticle | i bet it's not even < 1/1000th of an inch |
| 17:35.09 | JeffM | perhaps |
| 17:35.21 | JeffM | people will use what they like |
| 17:35.37 | JeffM | just because you can't see why dosn't mean others won't :) |
| 17:35.58 | randomparticle | i think it's using hardware to solve a software problem |
| 17:36.06 | pacman87 | mine's up to 2400, but i usually play at 1600 |
| 17:36.09 | JeffM | I'm sure you do |
| 17:36.24 | randomparticle | people aren't using 4000dpi mice so they can move it 1/4000th of an inch and have that register |
| 17:36.36 | JeffM | go get a job at logitch and find out |
| 17:37.07 | randomparticle | hardly practical is it? :) |
| 17:38.34 | randomparticle | the dpi thing is about speed, not accuracy |
| 17:38.49 | JeffM | it's just as practical as ranting about it on a video game IRC channel ;) |
| 17:38.55 | randomparticle | i'm not ranting |
| 17:39.02 | JeffM | kinda looks like it man ;) |
| 17:39.19 | randomparticle | do you have to be such a confrontational twat all the time? |
| 17:39.37 | JeffM | just stating my opinon, just like you were, no need to get snippy |
| 17:39.39 | randomparticle | is it not possible to discuss these things without you getting your knickers in a twist? |
| 17:39.44 | JeffM | dude |
| 17:40.07 | JeffM | issues? |
| 17:40.22 | randomparticle | i'm interesting about mice, having a civil discussion etc |
| 17:40.46 | JeffM | I know, and I made a JOKE about the practicality |
| 17:40.46 | randomparticle | it's not about ranting, it's about being curious about things and thinkig them through |
| 17:41.13 | JeffM | cus TO ME it seemed like you were starting up a rant, not that there is anything wrong with a good rant. |
| 17:41.33 | randomparticle | well, you got it wrong |
| 17:41.40 | JeffM | entirely possible |
| 17:43.50 | Winny | JeffM: wanna move/delete this? http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=12799 |
| 17:43.55 | Winny | sort of useless/out of place |
| 17:44.12 | JeffM | that would be the second time I've done so.... :( |
| 17:46.46 | JeffM | randomparticle, I'm sorry my opinoons intrupted yours, please continue. |
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| 17:55.26 | spldart | Well.. Since Jeff, or noone elsle for that matter, called you on it.... Watch the language. |
| 17:55.53 | randomparticle | yeah, and watch the sarcastic know-it all comments |
| 17:56.24 | spldart | You'll probably want to drop the attitude before you get yourself in trouble with those that run the channel. |
| 17:56.31 | randomparticle | i come here to discuss constructively, to offer to code up stuff for bzflag. not to be told to go and work for logitech |
| 17:56.42 | spldart | Disagreements are fine. But not foul language |
| 17:57.10 | randomparticle | every time i come here jeffm gets all uppity and confrontational and turns it all into a massive argument. |
| 17:57.28 | spldart | Dude. I don't care about your disagreement. |
| 17:57.31 | randomparticle | it's perfectly possible to remain civil and polite and discuss mice |
| 17:59.30 | randomparticle | this is the guy who came onto a server and publicly accused me of cheating because he didn't understand how the server was set up |
| 18:06.33 | *** join/#bzflag TD-Linux (n=wheeeeee@about/essy/indecisive/TD-Linux) |
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| 18:16.22 | randomparticle | is it worth my while trying to get bzflag to compile etc with visual-c++ 9.0? |
| 18:16.44 | randomparticle | i understand there is a problem with manifests |
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| 18:18.52 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v Erroneous] by ChanServ |
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| 20:50.23 | randomparticle | hi cons |
| 20:50.35 | Constitution | hey snick |
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| 22:10.49 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v spldart] by ChanServ |
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| 22:53.01 | spldart | Question... In the BUGS file does an issue with the text in the menus at certain resolutions go under the 'Rendering |
| 22:53.01 | spldart | ---------' Sub_heading? It would seem to be appropriate. |
| 22:58.14 | spldart | I'll assume yes and fix later if need be. |
| 22:58.39 | CIA-35 | BZFlag: 03bzspldart * r18097 10/trunk/bzflag/BUGS: High resolution font menu issue. |
| 23:07.21 | CIA-35 | BZFlag: 03bzspldart * r18098 10/trunk/bzflag/BUGS: Wings jump/landing issue. |
| 23:33.51 | spldart | is the 'wide angle' view suppossed to include a 1/4 to 1/3 view of your own flag? |
| 23:33.57 | spldart | in trunk |
| 23:38.41 | CIA-35 | BZFlag: 03bzspldart * r18099 10/trunk/bzflag/BUGS: Further clarify wings/jump bug. |
| 23:43.05 | *** join/#bzflag codergeek42 (n=pgordon@fedora/codergeek42) |
| 23:44.51 | CIA-35 | BZFlag: 03bzspldart * r18100 10/trunk/bzflag/BUGS: Possible wide angle bug. |