| 00:00.15 | JeffM | Epyon, like I said, you just need to keep a steady pace :) |
| 00:00.15 | JeffM | and stick to the plan |
| 00:00.22 | JeffM | and work interacivly |
| 00:00.27 | JeffM | and comments are a good start |
| 00:00.43 | Erroneous | docs are pretty much universally recognized as a good thing ;) |
| 00:00.46 | Epyon | JeffM, commenting helps me to "get back into" |
| 00:01.11 | JeffM | Epyon, exactly, hence the ++ |
| 00:01.27 | JeffM | keep it up and all will be well |
| 00:01.38 | Constitution | ~epyon++ |
| 00:02.26 | JeffM | no, Constitution what you been doing? |
| 00:02.29 | JeffM | havent' seen much of you |
| 00:02.33 | JeffM | now not no ;) |
| 00:03.32 | JeffM | don't make me get my official indiana jones whip and hat! |
| 00:04.27 | Constitution | well, I finished those simple functions last week, and tied them into your code |
| 00:04.35 | JeffM | yes |
| 00:04.38 | JeffM | what about since? |
| 00:05.11 | JeffM | yes I'm going to be a hardass about it :) |
| 00:05.12 | Erroneous | heh. if we ask about status and all you can think of is something from last week, it's not a good sign, Constitution ;) |
| 00:05.30 | JeffM | yeah, I'd expect daily work man |
| 00:05.30 | JeffM | your slackin |
| 00:05.35 | spldart | :) |
| 00:05.47 | Erroneous | I mean, can you imagine what my boss would think if he asked me what I was up to and the only thing I could come up with was something from last week? :) |
| 00:06.19 | JeffM | Erroneous, didn't you not do anything yesterday |
| 00:06.26 | Gabe_G23 | Hey, does anyone know if there is any Assembly language in BzFlag? |
| 00:06.34 | JeffM | Gabe_G23, there is not |
| 00:06.35 | Erroneous | heh, good point... |
| 00:06.50 | Erroneous | I uploaded the update list... |
| 00:06.56 | Gabe_G23 | Alright, thanks. |
| 00:06.57 | JeffM | oooooooo |
| 00:07.00 | Erroneous | and I *have* done stuff today |
| 00:07.04 | JeffM | heh |
| 00:07.14 | *** join/#bzflag me1 (n=me1@unaffiliated/me1) |
| 00:08.11 | JeffM | Gabe_G23, why do you ask? |
| 00:08.29 | *** join/#bzflag fatass (n=shedelj@unaffiliated/thinkdifferentl/x-838543) |
| 00:09.33 | Epyon | JeffM, http://my.bzflag.org/w/BZWGen_revisited#Project_schedule |
| 00:10.08 | JeffM | Epyon, cool |
| 00:10.12 | JeffM | go over that with your mentor |
| 00:10.17 | Epyon | Yes I will. |
| 00:10.31 | JeffM | why do you need to reevaluate bzflag's collision code? |
| 00:10.43 | Epyon | To know what I can and can't do |
| 00:10.52 | JeffM | why do you need collisions? |
| 00:11.01 | JeffM | you are making maps not running them |
| 00:11.21 | Epyon | The code is buggy :P |
| 00:11.28 | blast007 | Epyon: basically, from the map making standpoint... just know that tanks can't drive up angles |
| 00:11.33 | JeffM | yeah |
| 00:11.37 | Gabe_G23 | JeffM: I was interested in learning a couple languages, Assembly being one of them, I play BzFlag a lot and was wondering if there was any Assembly code in it since my friend said he saw some .as files while looking through it. |
| 00:11.39 | JeffM | if it's flat you can drive on it |
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| 00:11.45 | Epyon | I need to ckeck when that happens |
| 00:11.49 | blast007 | if you have a flat surface, it should be fine, as long as stuff lines up |
| 00:12.00 | JeffM | Gabe_G23, .as where? |
| 00:12.03 | Epyon | You probably know that BZWGen generated maps have a place that sometimes people get stuck despite it being a proper mesh |
| 00:12.06 | Erroneous | Epyon: for your work you may assume that bzflag's collision code is perfect ;) |
| 00:12.16 | JeffM | yeah |
| 00:12.22 | JeffM | assume good funcitoning |
| 00:12.25 | JeffM | basicly no gaps |
| 00:12.26 | Erroneous | someone should fix the mesh/mesh stickiness bugs sometime |
| 00:12.26 | Gabe_G23 | JeffM: He's going over it, but he might have been mistaken. |
| 00:12.27 | JeffM | and keep it flat |
| 00:12.33 | Epyon | Erroneous, then please someone fix that buggy thing with the stucking on the roof :/ |
| 00:12.36 | JeffM | Gabe_G23, we are all C++ |
| 00:12.42 | Erroneous | yeah, it needs to be done |
| 00:12.49 | JeffM | Epyon, that dosn't matter for you to finish your project |
| 00:12.53 | JeffM | do NOT get sidetracked |
| 00:13.01 | Gabe_G23 | JeffM: Entirely? I thought there were little snippets of other languages in there also.. |
| 00:13.08 | Gabe_G23 | JeffM: Perl and Python? |
| 00:13.17 | Epyon | JeffM, but that matters to people that I want to get to play the maps to evaluate them :/ |
| 00:13.18 | JeffM | Gabe_G23, only for utily stuff in the misc dir |
| 00:13.25 | Erroneous | if you want to look at it you may, but don't spend too much time on it |
| 00:13.35 | JeffM | Epyon, then provide us with samples that show the bugs and we can fix it |
| 00:13.37 | Epyon | JeffM, remember that one of my goals was to make bzwgen more popular, was it? |
| 00:13.37 | blast007 | Gabe_G23: maybe they saw .am files? Those would be used for our build system on *nix (automake) |
| 00:13.45 | JeffM | but you should not base your system around buggy code |
| 00:13.47 | Epyon | JeffM, the stucking had a REALLY bad effect on that |
| 00:13.49 | JeffM | go off what "should" work |
| 00:14.15 | Epyon | I'll reduce the bug to the lowest possible mesh and submit it |
| 00:14.17 | JeffM | Epyon, then provide a very simple sample and we can fix it |
| 00:14.18 | JeffM | good |
| 00:14.22 | Erroneous | yeah, definitely do NOT design bzwgen to work around it...either look at fixing the bug, or file a bug report and move on |
| 00:14.24 | JeffM | this is a team effort ;) |
| 00:14.42 | blast007 | technically, I suppose there is *some* python stuff in our main code, but only in that python plugin :) |
| 00:14.53 | Epyon | The second reason too take a look at it is how much cheating in terms of mesh correctness. |
| 00:15.11 | JeffM | Epyon, so we can expect to see you commiting that alternate ruleset over the course of the week? |
| 00:15.13 | Epyon | The papers hat I based on used a LOT of cheating, and I never did that. |
| 00:15.47 | Erroneous | what is the goal of that? reducing map size/complexity? |
| 00:15.50 | JeffM | Epyon, just finish your app, don't get sidetracked on other stuff till later? |
| 00:15.50 | Epyon | JeffM, I know I'm waaaay behind, so I plan do some solid work this weekend |
| 00:15.50 | Gabe_G23 | blast007: He says 'He sees those, but he thought he saw something different', he's not looking through the code anymore, I guess he's given up. |
| 00:15.53 | Epyon | I hope |
| 00:16.02 | JeffM | Epyon, what are you going to do for the next 3 days? |
| 00:16.29 | Epyon | Erroneous, yes, and increasing the visual complexity of buildings without increasing polycount |
| 00:16.34 | Erroneous | ok, cool |
| 00:17.00 | JeffM | Epyon, why would you NOT want to do that for any reason? |
| 00:17.15 | Epyon | JeffM, because that'd be a cheat |
| 00:17.21 | JeffM | huh? |
| 00:17.23 | Epyon | The mesh wouldn't be "perfect" |
| 00:17.30 | JeffM | you mean be non maifold? |
| 00:17.44 | JeffM | aka have gaps? |
| 00:17.50 | Epyon | Hmm, I can quickly pullup a sample reder in max if you'll wait a sec |
| 00:17.57 | JeffM | would it have gaps? |
| 00:18.04 | JeffM | just answer the question |
| 00:18.11 | Epyon | depending on the meaning of the word gaps |
| 00:18.21 | JeffM | if you filled it with water would it leak? |
| 00:18.30 | Epyon | That depends :) |
| 00:18.41 | Epyon | I'll illustrate |
| 00:20.22 | Constitution | JeffM: sorry, phone. Guess I'll also answer the entire question in one message next time. :) Shots still do not work. Determining the cause has taken a lot of debugging and searching through an unfamiliar codebase. I had a trip over the weekend and got back yesterday, but I'll step it up tonight and for the rest of the week. Hopefully I can get this branch working so I can move on to the actual work from my proposal. |
| 00:20.39 | JeffM | Constitution, ok |
| 00:20.54 | JeffM | also please work interactivly if you can |
| 00:21.02 | JeffM | we'll all gladly help you on figuing out what's going on. |
| 00:21.10 | blast007 | Constitution: if you need any help debugging, I'm here quite a bit, as are others |
| 00:21.16 | JeffM | yeah |
| 00:21.25 | Constitution | okay |
| 00:21.31 | Erroneous | yesterday I was bored as all heck and would have gladly poked things if I knew what you needed |
| 00:21.34 | JeffM | we can all setup client and servers and see what messages are and arn't going thru |
| 00:21.35 | blast007 | I can build a server for that branch, and get a test going |
| 00:21.56 | JeffM | in fact that's the only way I've seen the large network bugs fixed, cooperativly |
| 00:29.10 | Epyon | JeffM,still here? |
| 00:29.19 | JeffM | yes |
| 00:29.29 | Epyon | Imagine this model, as a part of something bigger : http://chaosforge.org/facetest.png |
| 00:29.43 | JeffM | k |
| 00:29.46 | Epyon | How many Quads you think would be needed to do it? |
| 00:29.53 | JeffM | 6 |
| 00:30.03 | Epyon | And it would be collision-ok? |
| 00:30.06 | JeffM | yeah |
| 00:30.30 | JeffM | you'd need some inside and outside points |
| 00:30.33 | JeffM | but yeah you could make it ok |
| 00:30.48 | Epyon | Despite the fact that the there would be a hole on the right and left side of the green quad? |
| 00:30.51 | JeffM | we do it on a face bais and you'd hit the big outter faces before we had to test the gaps |
| 00:30.54 | JeffM | yeah |
| 00:31.07 | JeffM | that hole is still covered by nother quad |
| 00:31.09 | JeffM | so it'd be cool |
| 00:31.15 | Epyon | If so, then I'm extremely happy |
| 00:31.26 | JeffM | this is what I mean about working interactivly |
| 00:31.32 | Epyon | Because that means that I will have a easy way to drastically improve the visuals. |
| 00:31.33 | JeffM | talk to us rather then bury yourself in code ;) |
| 00:31.38 | JeffM | Epyon, cool |
| 00:31.54 | JeffM | you'd need an inside point ibehind the green quad |
| 00:32.08 | JeffM | and probably an oustside point in the space between the left and right large quads |
| 00:32.09 | Epyon | JeffM, we could talk like an hour, and it wouldn't convey what I could convey with the picture xP |
| 00:32.11 | JeffM | but that should be fine |
| 00:32.24 | JeffM | Epyon, by talk I mean this with pictures |
| 00:32.34 | JeffM | rather then you just looking at math in the code by yourself |
| 00:32.38 | JeffM | the picture helped yes |
| 00:33.14 | Epyon | For me it's fine that the two red ones would be separate quads -- it's even easier for me. But what I didn't know was wether the grey walls had to be triangulated to match the shape or could just be left as quads |
| 00:34.34 | JeffM | naw, we are per face so we'll be ok |
| 00:35.03 | JeffM | we don't do convex hull or anything fancy |
| 00:35.05 | JeffM | if it's not, we'll make it fine :) |
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| 00:35.05 | Epyon | Great, that solves much of my problems :) |
| 00:35.05 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v L4m3r] by ChanServ |
| 00:36.44 | JeffM | Epyon, cool |
| 00:37.25 | JeffM | to help the collisions I'd add one inside point and one outside point |
| 00:37.32 | JeffM | in the middle of the green face |
| 00:37.48 | JeffM | offset out for the outside and in for the inside |
| 00:37.53 | JeffM | that would make it collide just fine |
| 00:38.02 | Epyon | Yeah, and that's why I need to learn exactly what are the inside outside points used like |
| 00:38.08 | Epyon | To know how to place them |
| 00:38.10 | JeffM | we'll help you with that |
| 00:38.21 | JeffM | basicly we draw a ray from the tank to the inside point |
| 00:38.31 | JeffM | if it crosses an odd number of faces, the tank is outside |
| 00:38.47 | JeffM | we do the same for an outside point, if it crosses an even number of faces, it's outside |
| 00:39.08 | JeffM | it helps to put them in the hollow section of concave shapes |
| 00:39.29 | JeffM | you could probalby do it with a single outside point, but I'd throw an inside point behind the green face just to help it go faster |
| 00:40.10 | Epyon | Well ok, but considering that this element would represent one window, the cumber of I/O points would rise drastically |
| 00:40.19 | JeffM | yeah |
| 00:40.24 | Epyon | So I'd like to get away with as little as possible |
| 00:40.30 | JeffM | 2 is not bad |
| 00:40.39 | Epyon | 2 per window? :P |
| 00:40.42 | JeffM | yeah |
| 00:40.47 | JeffM | it'd make it collide correctly |
| 00:40.59 | JeffM | from every angle at every scale |
| 00:41.11 | JeffM | you just do what is right |
| 00:41.17 | JeffM | let us worry about the size and transport ;) |
| 00:41.23 | Epyon | With the current algo that'd give like 100-500 points for the bigger meshes D: |
| 00:41.28 | JeffM | yeah so? |
| 00:42.00 | JeffM | maybe it's time to break stuff up into smaller sub meshes ;) |
| 00:42.07 | JeffM | that helps the culling too |
| 00:42.23 | JeffM | or you could go super cheap if you want |
| 00:42.38 | JeffM | and just put an invisible bounding mesh around the entire building |
| 00:42.43 | JeffM | and do this as drawinfo |
| 00:42.48 | JeffM | then you can LOD it ;) |
| 00:42.51 | Epyon | THIS is an idea |
| 00:42.57 | JeffM | that'd be my prefered method |
| 00:43.12 | Epyon | Could be as an option. |
| 00:43.18 | JeffM | I've done work on making model tool support draw info and it would help what you are doing a lot |
| 00:43.40 | JeffM | then you'd just use 6 invisible quads over the building |
| 00:43.56 | JeffM | and there rest would just be draw only geometry |
| 00:44.02 | JeffM | would probalby make the game play better too |
| 00:44.05 | Erroneous | lod would be sweet |
| 00:44.24 | JeffM | since you could easaly predict how shots would bounce off the building since to the game each wall would be 'flat' |
| 00:44.25 | Epyon | Actually BZWGen already has support for lod :P |
| 00:44.29 | JeffM | cool |
| 00:44.34 | Erroneous | ooh, the man is ahead of me |
| 00:44.35 | JeffM | then draw info is the way to go |
| 00:44.50 | JeffM | I can help you with the bzw format when you get to it |
| 00:44.57 | Epyon | I mean depending on the detail parameter you can have buildings without window frames, and without facades |
| 00:45.05 | JeffM | I'd like to see those other rulesets first tho |
| 00:45.43 | Epyon | My top priority is getting that first set of goals done till Sunday |
| 00:45.50 | JeffM | cool |
| 00:46.13 | JeffM | so we've helped you with the need to not have to look into the collision code, so that should leave more time for them rulesets ;) |
| 00:46.20 | JeffM | hint hint, nudge nudge |
| 00:46.54 | Epyon | ;] |
| 00:48.17 | JeffM | I'm glad you have a plan |
| 00:48.26 | JeffM | we'll be watching to make sure you follow it |
| 00:48.29 | JeffM | and helping you where we can |
| 00:48.35 | JeffM | so please never fear to ask us anything |
| 00:48.44 | Epyon | I never did ;] |
| 00:48.58 | JeffM | I'm just sayin |
| 00:49.01 | spldart | gives the students the bulging eyeball society look :) |
| 00:49.07 | JeffM | if you have to review code, please discuss it with us |
| 00:49.21 | JeffM | as we can often give you better descriptions or ideas |
| 00:49.32 | JeffM | such as the draw info stuff instead of worrying about collisions ;) |
| 00:50.00 | Epyon | never really understood drawinfo -- the wiki was very secretive about it. |
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| 00:50.20 | Erroneous | heh, the wiki is not secretive, just nobody who edited the wiki understood it ;) |
| 00:50.26 | Erroneous | for a long time nobody understood it, period |
| 00:50.43 | JeffM | yeah |
| 00:51.00 | Epyon | is ashamed looking at some of the code he wrote last year. |
| 00:51.02 | JeffM | for what you are doing, ask people, then read docs |
| 00:51.08 | L4m3r | 'cept trepan, for what that's worth :P |
| 00:51.21 | JeffM | L4m3r, I don't think he understands it ether ;) |
| 00:51.25 | L4m3r | heh |
| 00:51.27 | Erroneous | wasn't gonna go there :) |
| 00:51.35 | JeffM | 1) it's changed since he did it |
| 00:52.19 | JeffM | and 2) it was never fully fnished when he did it |
| 00:52.19 | Epyon | Nobody can be told what drawInfo is, you have to see it for yourself. |
| 00:52.19 | JeffM | and 3) it's WaCKY |
| 00:52.19 | JeffM | Epyon, naw I have a handle on it now, from when I did the stuff for model tool |
| 00:52.19 | Erroneous | yeah, JeffM is the man |
| 00:52.33 | JeffM | I can give you a sample map that has a draw info mesh inside an invisible box |
| 00:52.40 | Erroneous | fighting back against the obfuscation |
| 00:52.43 | JeffM | just tell me when you get there |
| 00:53.00 | Epyon | kk |
| 00:53.24 | JeffM | using draw info and a bounding mesh will solve most if not all your collision issues |
| 00:53.27 | JeffM | and make it draw faster |
| 00:53.33 | JeffM | since the draw info meshes are slaped into lists |
| 00:53.36 | Epyon | The schedule for Phase 2 is very vague now, I might move some things around. |
| 00:54.09 | Epyon | Currently however I'm fixed on getting rid of that axis-aligned world -_- |
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| 01:17.28 | Lukstr | aw, I've gotten almost no real work done today. |
| 01:17.50 | Lukstr | JeffM: Alright well, I've been running ideas through my head for a while |
| 01:19.03 | Lukstr | should I just not worry about reimplementing things right now and just concat everything into the library? |
| 01:29.44 | JeffM | Lukstr, hun? |
| 01:29.46 | JeffM | huh? |
| 01:30.01 | Lukstr | Well |
| 01:30.05 | Lukstr | For example |
| 01:30.09 | JeffM | you mean just slam files into the lib? |
| 01:30.09 | Lukstr | BZWReader |
| 01:30.14 | Lukstr | well |
| 01:30.19 | Lukstr | not slam, but a lot of copypasta |
| 01:30.31 | JeffM | I'd start by framing out your class structure |
| 01:30.39 | Lukstr | Alright, that's what I was thinking |
| 01:30.41 | JeffM | then filling in the methods of the class from the code in bzflag |
| 01:30.52 | JeffM | ratehr then just getting all the code from bzflag and trying to make it work |
| 01:30.56 | Lukstr | That sounds good to me |
| 01:30.57 | Lukstr | yeah |
| 01:31.08 | JeffM | then it at least compiles as you work ;) |
| 01:31.12 | JeffM | and you can commit incrementaly |
| 01:31.52 | Lukstr | Would it be bad for me to make a World object? |
| 01:31.57 | Lukstr | er |
| 01:31.58 | JeffM | not at all |
| 01:31.58 | Lukstr | class |
| 01:32.01 | Lukstr | Alright |
| 01:32.03 | JeffM | I'd hope you would make one |
| 01:32.07 | Lukstr | I was going to remove all the current stuff that exists |
| 01:32.12 | JeffM | naw |
| 01:32.12 | Lukstr | and pack it within the World class |
| 01:32.17 | JeffM | make yours |
| 01:32.26 | JeffM | then remove the other stuff once yours is good |
| 01:32.31 | Lukstr | Sorry, I mean take the current world stuff |
| 01:32.41 | JeffM | nothign says we can't keep 2 classes around for a bit ;) |
| 01:32.52 | Lukstr | of course |
| 01:32.56 | Lukstr | So something like |
| 01:33.13 | JeffM | keeping the old stuff around also gives you something to compare too as you work |
| 01:33.25 | Lukstr | yes |
| 01:33.28 | Lukstr | Alright, |
| 01:35.12 | Lukstr | Oh, right so for example BZWReader.* currently inherits cURL stuff |
| 01:35.31 | JeffM | I'd break your classes down this way |
| 01:35.38 | JeffM | 1) make a BZWorld class |
| 01:35.43 | JeffM | have it just have the storage for the world |
| 01:35.51 | JeffM | and all the methods that ACT on the world |
| 01:36.07 | JeffM | but not have it have any way to read or write the world |
| 01:36.20 | JeffM | then build up a series of World Read / write classes |
| 01:36.24 | JeffM | one that uses the net |
| 01:36.27 | JeffM | one that uses curl |
| 01:36.30 | JeffM | one that uses files |
| 01:36.37 | Lukstr | within BZWorld or alongside? |
| 01:36.45 | JeffM | outside |
| 01:36.57 | JeffM | they should take a BZWorld class as a construction parmater |
| 01:37.07 | JeffM | then you can fill in your world from any number of sources |
| 01:37.20 | JeffM | or even derive off new readers/writers as needed |
| 01:37.39 | JeffM | that way, the people that use the world, can just deal with the one world class |
| 01:37.48 | JeffM | then use just the reader/writer they care about |
| 01:37.50 | JeffM | for instance |
| 01:38.06 | JeffM | BZWBench would use just the file read and file write classes |
| 01:38.12 | JeffM | not network or http |
| 01:38.21 | Lukstr | hm |
| 01:38.24 | JeffM | then they don't need to include the headers or libs that those use |
| 01:38.42 | JeffM | BZFS would use the file reader, and the net writer |
| 01:38.42 | Lukstr | should the class name actuall have the BZ* prefix? |
| 01:38.49 | JeffM | dosn't have to |
| 01:38.59 | Lukstr | it might make things cleaner |
| 01:39.02 | JeffM | sure |
| 01:39.04 | JeffM | it's just names |
| 01:39.14 | JeffM | the idea is to seperate the filling in of the world from the use of the world |
| 01:39.34 | JeffM | then we can use multiple world formats eventualy |
| 01:39.41 | JeffM | such as compressed binary, or text |
| 01:39.43 | Lukstr | so it should actuall be a series of libs |
| 01:39.46 | JeffM | no |
| 01:39.50 | JeffM | well maybe |
| 01:40.00 | JeffM | start out as one lib |
| 01:40.02 | Lukstr | it seems like it would go in that direction |
| 01:40.04 | JeffM | and we can break it up if need be |
| 01:40.07 | Lukstr | okay |
| 01:41.03 | JeffM | start by framing out the classes |
| 01:41.08 | JeffM | they don't have to do anything initaly |
| 01:41.18 | JeffM | just have the interfaces and stubbs |
| 01:41.23 | JeffM | that will let you see how it can be used |
| 01:42.42 | JeffM | then you can go over that framework with various mentors and make sure it's cool before you start filling in the guts :) |
| 01:45.23 | Lukstr | alright sounds tasty |
| 01:45.39 | JeffM | that's how I always start out new classes |
| 01:45.41 | JeffM | frame em out |
| 01:46.04 | Lukstr | aye |
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| 03:05.59 | spldart | Nighty night all |
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| 06:17.40 | CIA-34 | BZFlag: 03jwmelto * r17476 10/branches/v2_99_net_branch/src/bzflag/ (ServerLink.cxx playing.cxx): Merged with r17474 |
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| 07:22.13 | CIA-34 | BZFlag: 03macsforme * r17477 10/branches/v2_99_shot_branch/ (include/ShotManager.h src/common/VectorMath.cxx): |
| 07:22.13 | CIA-34 | BZFlag: VectorMath function vectorToAngle() may be passed temporary variables as arguments; remove reference parameter. |
| 07:22.13 | CIA-34 | BZFlag: Put ShotManager class method declarations in the same order as the implmentations. |
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| 07:51.31 | CIA-34 | BZFlag: 03lukstr * r17478 10/branches/gsoc_libbzw/src/world/ (BZWorld.cxx BZWorld.h): Undid silly things, made class name BZWorld. |
| 07:53.55 | Lukstr | hm. |
| 07:54.29 | Lukstr | Mentors that read logs: We need to discuss some libBZW things. |
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| 09:33.51 | tarco | hello |
| 09:35.50 | tarco | can anyone help me set up a bzflag server |
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| 11:05.59 | sam | brlcad: should I assume that you're lacking time, or that FTGL is in a reasonable shape? I'd like to do at least an RC release before the end of the week |
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| 13:52.11 | Flash | Lukstr: if you want to help mentors who read logs, you might provide a bit more information (seed the discussion) |
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| 14:56.47 | Thumper_ | Lukstr: Try to be specific in your question so you can get an answer when we're here and you're not - then when you're back you have what you need instead of still be waiting for someone to show up |
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| 16:26.22 | JeffM | so let mercy come, and wash away, what I've done. I''ll face my self, to cross out what I've I've become. Erase myself and let go of what I've done... |
| 16:26.29 | Lukstr | Flash, Thumper_: I realize, but this is a difficult discussion to have through logs |
| 16:26.41 | Lukstr | Maybe I'll get people to start posting on the discussion page |
| 16:27.05 | JeffM | you get your framework setup? |
| 16:27.10 | Lukstr | not so much |
| 16:27.30 | Lukstr | I need to figure out exactly how much "World" things the lib will encompass |
| 16:27.43 | JeffM | like? |
| 16:28.02 | Lukstr | just a second |
| 16:28.43 | Lukstr | collision code? |
| 16:28.53 | JeffM | maybe, but only at the very end |
| 16:28.56 | JeffM | start with storage |
| 16:29.04 | JeffM | then do manipulation |
| 16:29.04 | Lukstr | hm |
| 16:29.10 | JeffM | and file IO |
| 16:29.16 | JeffM | then we can look into collisions |
| 16:29.21 | JeffM | not everyone needs collisions |
| 16:29.28 | Lukstr | right |
| 16:29.34 | JeffM | so it may be feasable to build a colliable world that is derived from your lib classes |
| 16:29.39 | JeffM | that isn't in the actual lib |
| 16:29.43 | JeffM | start small then build up ;) |
| 16:30.05 | JeffM | nothing says we have to have one world class that does it all |
| 16:30.10 | Lukstr | hm |
| 16:30.12 | JeffM | we can structure it in derived classes |
| 16:30.24 | JeffM | so outside we have a collidable world |
| 16:30.31 | JeffM | then the game server uses that |
| 16:30.48 | JeffM | then have the client derive off a drawable world from that collidable world |
| 16:30.50 | JeffM | etc... |
| 16:31.22 | Lukstr | so sort of similar to how it's arranged now, but organized and all in one location |
| 16:31.35 | JeffM | well your core lib will be one location |
| 16:31.42 | JeffM | it may end up being more then one final lib |
| 16:32.00 | JeffM | but yeah, centralised and with a clean common abstraction |
| 16:32.00 | Lukstr | alright |
| 16:32.06 | JeffM | reather then everyone doing whatever they want |
| 16:32.07 | Lukstr | I'll mull this over in my head over lunch |
| 16:32.16 | Lukstr | right, okay |
| 16:32.35 | Lukstr | still not sure exactly how to split the seperate functionality up but will be back in a bit |
| 16:32.49 | JeffM | if it's abstracted well enough, the version that derives collisions just has to have the code to collide a sphere or tank with any arbitrary face |
| 16:32.56 | JeffM | then it won't care about what the underlying world is |
| 16:33.12 | JeffM | so that adding new world objects is as simple adding support for them in the core lib |
| 16:33.15 | JeffM | same for drawing |
| 16:33.21 | JeffM | it can be made to draw a generic face |
| 16:33.31 | JeffM | then we end up with a very clean world system |
| 16:34.03 | JeffM | but start with just storage, I/O and manipulation |
| 16:34.30 | JeffM | for collisions it may be good to just rewrite the entire collision system using your lib rather then port it from the old code |
| 16:34.35 | JeffM | cus the old code is inconsitent. |
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| 17:21.06 | L4m3r | is wearing his obnoxiously bright orange bzshirt today |
| 17:27.26 | JeffM | heh |
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| 17:44.10 | JeffM | some people cal me the space cowboy! |
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| 17:51.02 | JeffM | mmmmmmm 4th edition goodness :) |
| 17:54.09 | AAA_awright | Hm, maybe BZFlag could be forked into a virtual counter top... change some meshes, change the lighting, fork bzworkbench suitably too... add voice chat... |
| 17:54.40 | JeffM | huh? |
| 17:55.55 | AAA_awright | Speaking of voice chat |
| 17:56.03 | AAA_awright | (no pun intended) |
| 17:56.07 | JeffM | do you mean virtual tabletop? |
| 17:56.40 | AAA_awright | Yes, roughly the same thing to me |
| 17:56.43 | JeffM | for a dynamic world system it'd be simpler to rewrite that with a new engine |
| 17:56.54 | JeffM | we don't allow for the world to be changed in realtime |
| 17:56.57 | AAA_awright | Oh, that is right |
| 17:57.00 | JeffM | you'd go base it off cube or soething |
| 17:57.05 | JeffM | it does most of it right now |
| 17:57.26 | JeffM | or just buy fantasy grounds |
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| 17:57.37 | JeffM | or wait for the DM toolkit to be done |
| 17:57.43 | JeffM | that's what I'm looking forward too |
| 17:57.48 | JeffM | the full insider subscription |
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| 18:01.03 | AAA_awright | I don't know why so many free software implementations have failed trying to do the same thing though... I am waiting to see |
| 18:01.11 | JeffM | because they can't |
| 18:01.17 | JeffM | rules license |
| 18:02.16 | JeffM | I hope they do an API type system with the insider accounts |
| 18:02.43 | JeffM | where people can write software that uses the rules but the users have to login to insider to get access to them |
| 18:03.01 | AAA_awright | Nothing that implements rules (and PCGen has the rule set shipped anyways), a system neutral virtual playing surface. With chat. |
| 18:03.01 | JeffM | then they won't have to worry about people stealing the data that others pay for |
| 18:03.09 | JeffM | AAA_awright, there are open source ones |
| 18:03.14 | JeffM | mostly writen in crap java |
| 18:03.18 | AAA_awright | Nothing very good |
| 18:03.29 | JeffM | fantasy grounds is fine |
| 18:03.32 | JeffM | but it's comerical |
| 18:03.33 | JeffM | yet cheap |
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| 18:03.43 | JeffM | that's what we've used |
| 18:04.45 | JeffM | I won't mind paying the insider subscription |
| 18:04.54 | JeffM | specialy since it gives full acess to all the books they will public |
| 18:05.06 | JeffM | the subsctription will actualy be cheaper then buying them all |
| 18:05.48 | AAA_awright | I didn't hear the access part |
| 18:05.58 | JeffM | yeah full access to all offical books |
| 18:06.08 | JeffM | online storage for 500 characters |
| 18:06.49 | JeffM | dungon and dragon artciles each week |
| 18:06.53 | JeffM | lots of good stuff |
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| 18:08.27 | AAA_awright | I settled on buying the case of three online from b&n, 30% off online + members discount + coupon 15% off one item (which was all three books in that case) = really cheap |
| 18:08.52 | JeffM | I got them from amazon |
| 18:08.57 | JeffM | 57$ |
| 18:09.16 | AAA_awright | Not bad. $61 with free shipping here |
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| 18:13.30 | JeffM | brlcad, did you ever find that catolog that I sent you with your hoodies? |
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| 19:16.48 | Epyon | votes himself for the unluckiest man alive. |
| 19:16.56 | spldart | .... |
| 19:17.03 | Epyon | got hit by a car today -_- |
| 19:17.12 | spldart | How bad |
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| 19:23.29 | spldart | .... are you physically injured? Is your car totalled? How are you doin? |
| 19:24.13 | Viza | sounds like he was just walking on the street and got hit |
| 19:24.49 | spldart | A losing proposition considering the one sidedness of the two moving masses. |
| 19:25.32 | Viza | indeed |
| 19:25.45 | spldart | I've been hit by a car while on my motorcycle but never while walking down the street. |
| 19:25.47 | spldart | knocks on wood |
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| 20:07.31 | Winny | yay I didn't die for that long |
| 20:08.13 | AAA_awright | I was thinking we should add some hooks into http://mumble.sourceforge.net/Main_Page |
| 20:08.23 | AAA_awright | Rather, would that be an interesting idea? |
| 20:08.30 | AAA_awright | I don't know much about Mumble |
| 20:08.52 | Winny | I enjoying mumbling |
| 20:09.10 | AAA_awright | mumblmumblmumblmumbleHuh? |
| 20:09.19 | AAA_awright | Note capital M |
| 20:09.41 | AAA_awright | A bzfs plugin for Murmur, the Mumble server too |
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| 20:11.08 | JeffM | AAA_awright, bzfs would not need the plugin |
| 20:11.10 | JeffM | the client would |
| 20:11.30 | JeffM | and it would be better to just run it sepeately |
| 20:12.02 | AAA_awright | The Mumble server, Murmur, to make things easy could have a plugin that launches the appropriate team channels |
| 20:12.09 | AAA_awright | a bzfs plugin |
| 20:12.36 | JeffM | bzfs plugins can't launch things on the client |
| 20:12.44 | JeffM | the bzfs plugin would have to be the server |
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| 20:14.03 | AAA_awright | bzflag would need a mod to support launching the client, yes |
| 20:14.21 | JeffM | if you are going to mod the client, you don't need the server |
| 20:14.31 | nn-olpc | hi all |
| 20:14.41 | JeffM | since the client knows about the teams and could just join the required channels |
| 20:16.13 | nn-olpc | I'm on some unseccure wifi near rochester ny |
| 20:16.27 | JeffM | umm ok |
| 20:16.47 | nn-olpc | lol ya im far form home :( |
| 20:16.52 | JeffM | umm ok |
| 20:16.55 | nn-olpc | * from |
| 20:17.16 | nn-olpc | ... what new ? |
| 20:17.59 | nn-olpc | hows the develupment going |
| 20:18.32 | JeffM | same as always |
| 20:18.59 | nn-olpc | ok |
| 20:18.59 | AAA_awright | hm |
| 20:19.09 | AAA_awright | Good point |
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| 20:20.07 | JeffM | nn-olpc, you do know that one of your servers is banned from the list server right? and has been for a while. |
| 20:20.24 | nn-olpc | yes |
| 20:20.38 | JeffM | do you ever intend to actualy DO anything about that? |
| 20:21.32 | nn-olpc | JeffM, that server is no longer serving bzflag for that reason the ban does not consern me |
| 20:22.17 | JeffM | so did you just move your stolen maps to another IP? |
| 20:22.26 | nn-olpc | nope |
| 20:22.58 | JeffM | you should have actualy responded to us telling us that you've taken it down then |
| 20:24.06 | nn-olpc | .... couldent even find the stolen maps .. as well as the fact that all the servers i admin do not serve bzflag there is one server on my domain that is mantained by ahs3 he has full controal over it..... |
| 20:24.34 | JeffM | you are the owner, you are responsible in the end. |
| 20:25.46 | nn-olpc | yes ahs3, has verry fiew maps that he and no one else added thus he has no invalvment with this case |
| 20:27.19 | *** join/#bzflag praetorian (n=praetori@203-158-34-110.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 20:27.53 | nn-olpc | Dr robotnic gave me that map to host ... i had been having enofugh trubble with bickering admins since i didn't have time to deal with bzflag and the problems it was creating for my server i made the dision to stop all bzflag hosting |
| 20:28.41 | JeffM | whatever works for you |
| 20:29.53 | nn-olpc | i am now looking into serving FPS (tremulous) it is a lot more intresitng in the way of both maps and gaming |
| 20:30.03 | JeffM | whatever |
| 20:31.12 | AAA_awright | Mumble has text to speech, could prove useful if the client had hooks for chat |
| 20:31.26 | JeffM | or be horible ;) |
| 20:31.35 | nn-olpc | well im tired of squatting under this tree so i must say good bye as my connection will be lost as soon as i go back to the house .... |
| 20:31.38 | nn-olpc | bye all |
| 20:31.41 | AAA_awright | YOu can turn TtS off |
| 20:32.09 | JeffM | AAA_awright, I'm sure you can |
| 20:32.35 | AAA_awright | Would be awful if it was forced ;) |
| 20:33.02 | AAA_awright | bzfs could push the text to you twice, once through Mumble and through bzfs |
| 20:33.29 | AAA_awright | I can only imagine this being useful as a standard feature of a league or something though |
| 20:33.42 | AAA_awright | Where everyone has it set up in advance |
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| 20:36.16 | AAA_awright | internap.dl.sourceforge.net fails me |
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| 22:10.08 | Erroneous | Lukstr: what did you need to talk about? |
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| 22:40.25 | CIA-34 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * r17479 10/trunk/bzflag/src/common/TextUtils.cxx: Implement wide-string-ization on nonwindows platforms |
| 22:41.09 | CIA-34 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * r17480 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzflag/motd.cxx: free ALL the regexes we build, not just the last one |
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| 23:07.03 | sam | DTRemenak: what about you, do you have any comments about the current state of FTGL? I'd like to release an RC version |
| 23:07.29 | Erroneous | sounds good to me |
| 23:08.54 | Erroneous | hm, although the vc7.1 projects might be broken at the moment...I haven't tested them |
| 23:23.11 | CIA-34 | FTGL: 03dtremenak * r1184 10/trunk/ (configure.ac src/FTFont/FTBufferFont.cpp): provide for us poor sobs who don't have a native strndup implementation |
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| 23:34.27 | CIA-34 | FTGL: 03dtremenak * r1185 10/trunk/msvc/vc71/ftgl_dll.vcproj: fix vc7.1 project |
| 23:34.41 | Erroneous | sam: ok, looks good now :) |
| 23:35.02 | Lukstr | Erroneous: how to divide up libbzw and how much current code to be included |
| 23:35.15 | CIA-34 | FTGL: 03dtremenak * r1186 10/trunk/msvc/vc8/ftgl_dll.vcproj: be consistent |
| 23:35.44 | Erroneous | Lukstr: divide it up logically, and use as much code as makes sense ;) |
| 23:35.56 | Erroneous | yeah, I know, not helpful |
| 23:36.03 | Lukstr | haha no worries |
| 23:36.07 | Lukstr | I think I have a plan |
| 23:36.28 | JeffM | Lukstr, go over it with him |
| 23:36.35 | Lukstr | alright, just a sec |
| 23:36.35 | JeffM | his ideas are better then mine |
| 23:36.52 | JeffM | put read/write into the base class using streams |
| 23:36.55 | Erroneous | one thing I'd do is make sure when you stub it out you write in doxygen comments at the same time |
| 23:37.08 | JeffM | and move the collision and drawable classes as external classes that take a world |
| 23:37.11 | Erroneous | then you can run doxygen over it and look at all the inheritance graphs and so on |
| 23:37.16 | Erroneous | make sure it makes sense |
| 23:37.17 | JeffM | kinda the oposite of what I said. |
| 23:37.32 | Lukstr | Erroneous: I was just thinking about the doxygen commenting, I remember I said I would |
| 23:37.56 | Erroneous | I've thought about the inherited worlds, JeffM...there are certain things that would be more elegant that way |
| 23:37.56 | Lukstr | mmm graphs |
| 23:38.15 | JeffM | Erroneous, and some that won't |
| 23:38.27 | JeffM | for my drawable stuff it made it very nice |
| 23:38.50 | JeffM | since I was able to just make my final object class just derive from my drawable and list classes and it works great |
| 23:38.53 | JeffM | but I'm not so sure with bzflag |
| 23:39.24 | Erroneous | I'm actually pretty sure it would work out ok for bzflag. might be expensive to implement on the client side though. |
| 23:39.32 | Erroneous | but it would clean stuff up in the process |
| 23:39.34 | JeffM | I can show you my framework implementation if youw ant to see how it it will work out? |
| 23:40.31 | Erroneous | I think I get the idea |
| 23:40.35 | JeffM | k |
| 23:40.41 | JeffM | I have it in a project if you want to see it tho |
| 23:40.47 | Erroneous | k |
| 23:41.14 | JeffM | with cheap ass collision code :) |
| 23:42.15 | JeffM | and the starts of a portal world not an object world but the basics are there. |
| 23:42.47 | Erroneous | yeah. unfortunately the complicated part for bzw is nesting and referencing |
| 23:42.51 | JeffM | crap.. and it seems I'm commiting an NCB... I hate when I do that |
| 23:43.15 | Erroneous | so does everyone else :P ;) |
| 23:43.52 | JeffM | yeah for bzflag the guts below the "world" object would be different I'd assume |
| 23:44.19 | JeffM | this is DnD style dugnon rooms |
| 23:44.40 | JeffM | not that a portal system could not work for bzflag.. but that is a differnt discussion ;) |
| 23:46.12 | JeffM | it's all in http://mmokit.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/mmokit/ if you want to see it |
| 23:47.52 | Erroneous | Lukstr: also, you don't have to wait for us before you start committing. bzflag typically runs on commit-then-review. |
| 23:48.35 | Lukstr | Erroneous: I know, I'm still sorting things out in my head |
| 23:48.37 | Erroneous | so you're welcome to throw together some top-level header files and check them in, and ask for comments if you're not sure it's right |
| 23:48.43 | Erroneous | ok :) |
| 23:48.50 | Lukstr | I don't feel like firing and asking questions later :P |
| 23:49.21 | Erroneous | I just find that sometimes putting it down in an editor helps get it sorted out in my head :) |
| 23:51.30 | Lukstr | yeah |
| 23:51.41 | Lukstr | every day I seem to find more source code to peel from |
| 23:55.59 | Erroneous | it's not strictly necessary to know our existing implementations inside and out (after all, there's a reason we're replacing them ;) ). just get to where you understand the concepts of what libbzw will be used for, and build from there. you can go back to try to understand the details when you run up against questions and problems. |
