| 00:01.26 | spldart | It was a GeForce FX 5200 and it does all right even on a busy map with fancy meshes n'stuff. Was it QuantumTim that had the nvid problem? |
| 00:01.44 | QuantumTim | yeah |
| 00:01.56 | spldart | I'm just running the prepackaged debian non-free driver |
| 00:02.03 | spldart | It does fine in windows too |
| 00:02.12 | spldart | lemme check something |
| 00:02.32 | QuantumTim | I'm gonna try something more graphics intense later |
| 00:02.49 | QuantumTim | but I got the new driver working in the end |
| 00:10.13 | spldart | Heh.. extremely busy server gets down to 30fps in linux.... not busy gets 100 |
| 00:22.22 | TD-Linux | spldart, I have the same problem |
| 00:22.40 | KTL | turning while in the air while facing most of the objects in the map was the most demanding in my experience |
| 00:22.55 | TD-Linux | quadro fx 570m (8600gt based) with linux binary |
| 00:23.11 | TD-Linux | turning off shadows seems to help a lot |
| 00:23.48 | spldart | 6200 A-LE under windows does seem to do better bout 120 fps |
| 00:24.07 | TD-Linux | yeah same card under windows gets solid 60 fps :P |
| 00:24.08 | TD-Linux | also |
| 00:24.13 | TD-Linux | framerates in other games are better |
| 00:24.27 | TD-Linux | seems somewhat bzflag specific |
| 00:25.01 | brlcad | jorgenpt: yes, more than stocked .. we're at a solid 2-1 right now |
| 00:25.25 | spldart | A le auto regulates to 60fps cuz of it's ability to do svid/composite monitors.. jeffm told me how to disable that and get the high framerates but in my machine it locks up.. Something in the nvidia control panel |
| 00:26.07 | brlcad | 150 messages in about 8 hours, jeez |
| 00:26.41 | TD-Linux | I have vsync off, I think |
| 00:26.49 | TD-Linux | or, it better be off with the tearing I get |
| 00:27.11 | TD-Linux | nvidia (on linux and windows) has a one-pixel-off line drawing bug too :/ |
| 00:27.16 | TD-Linux | is liking ATI better atm |
| 00:27.33 | JeffM | I need to fix the mousebox to not have that issue |
| 00:27.42 | JeffM | tiny tiny quads FTW |
| 00:27.51 | Erroneous | it's an issue on the new nvidia drivers afaict |
| 00:28.02 | JeffM | yeah but tiny tiny quads are much cooler |
| 00:28.05 | Erroneous | heh |
| 00:28.11 | JeffM | and may be faster |
| 00:28.47 | spldart | ATI drivers and operation are better right now IMHO and nvidia drivers are pissing me off lately.. but nvidia hardware reliability is beating ATI lately.. A switch from the past |
| 00:29.16 | Erroneous | ati has put a lot of work into their drivers, on windows especially |
| 00:29.27 | Erroneous | er, on vista especially |
| 00:29.30 | spldart | nvidia drivers of the last several months are giving me directdraw issues galore :( |
| 00:29.40 | spldart | It shows Erron |
| 00:30.35 | spldart | JeffM: Did you nominate me for a task a few hours ago or was that a kidding thing? |
| 00:30.57 | Erroneous | yeah, it does. our software has historically had tons of issues on ati cards; these days 90% of them have been resolved, including a number of pretty major GL conformance issues |
| 00:31.25 | JeffM | spldart, I did |
| 00:31.27 | JeffM | if you want to do it |
| 00:31.39 | spldart | Give me details :) |
| 00:31.44 | *** join/#bzflag Northman (n=unknown@host-66-235-85-70.warpspeed1.net) |
| 00:31.46 | JeffM | make sure the new flags are represneted in the sample configs in trunk |
| 00:31.50 | spldart | Boss had me distracted earlier |
| 00:32.35 | spldart | goes to poking around sample configs |
| 00:32.42 | brlcad | yay, overberghe intro |
| 00:33.37 | brlcad | ahh, everyone chiming in |
| 00:37.33 | Northman | always have the worse jitter at the wrong time |
| 00:37.42 | *** part/#bzflag Northman (n=unknown@host-66-235-85-70.warpspeed1.net) |
| 00:39.38 | spldart | Hectic over here.. wife and kids watching missed BB9 episodes on my other rig to left. |
| 00:42.25 | spldart | Ok... point me to sample configs :) |
| 00:42.31 | JeffM | misc |
| 00:43.16 | spldart | There is multiple? |
| 00:43.16 | spldart | or one |
| 00:43.28 | JeffM | one I think |
| 00:43.32 | Erroneous | bzfs.conf and bzfs_conf.html both need to be checked |
| 00:43.44 | spldart | there they are |
| 00:43.45 | spldart | hehe |
| 00:43.46 | JeffM | there ya go :) |
| 00:44.09 | spldart | Low gravity and what was the other |
| 00:44.19 | JeffM | CS |
| 00:44.24 | JeffM | cloaked shot |
| 00:44.57 | *** join/#bzflag pacman87 (n=Timothy@resnet-45-192.dorm.utexas.edu) |
| 00:45.04 | spldart | they are defintely not in the latest checkout |
| 00:45.20 | Erroneous | also LG probably needs to be added to bzflag.6.in |
| 00:45.24 | Erroneous | in man |
| 00:45.28 | JeffM | they are new flags for 3.0 |
| 00:45.33 | spldart | Am I to right something in ? |
| 00:45.37 | spldart | hehe |
| 00:45.39 | spldart | write |
| 00:45.44 | JeffM | yep |
| 00:45.48 | JeffM | describe it ;) |
| 00:46.09 | spldart | Ok.. gimme a bit.. I wanna tinker with the new flags a bit first :) |
| 00:46.20 | JeffM | makes sense |
| 00:46.22 | JeffM | no rush |
| 00:46.32 | JeffM | just figured it was a nice little task you could try if you wanted |
| 00:46.37 | JeffM | take days if you want |
| 00:46.41 | spldart | :) I'll try |
| 00:47.43 | brlcad | javawizard2539: be sure to document the NEWS file too |
| 00:48.03 | brlcad | given that is very much a new user-visible feature |
| 00:49.55 | spldart | Heh.. LG.. I would consider that a flag with good and bad aspects personally... But perhaps maybe more a good |
| 00:50.41 | Erroneous | there was some discussion on exactly that ;) |
| 00:51.49 | javawizard2539 | brlcad, I will |
| 00:52.05 | *** join/#bzflag Ride- (n=Ride-@24-197-250-9.dhcp.stpt.wi.charter.com) |
| 00:52.48 | Ride- | has anyone heard from blast lately |
| 00:53.06 | JeffM | not since his rocket to the moon left |
| 00:53.15 | Ride- | oh ok thanks |
| 00:53.21 | Ride- | :D |
| 00:53.22 | spldart | I'm counting it as good since it has more potential to counter some scenarios than potential to really hurt |
| 00:53.31 | JeffM | Ride-, what did you need? |
| 00:53.37 | spldart | That from a player's humble standpoint |
| 00:54.23 | spldart | working on bzfs.conf now |
| 00:57.00 | *** join/#bzflag javawizard2539 (n=javawiza@c-24-10-227-207.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 00:58.59 | *** part/#bzflag javawizard2539 (n=javawiza@c-24-10-227-207.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 00:59.13 | *** join/#bzflag javawizard2539 (n=javawiza@c-24-10-227-207.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 01:05.40 | blast007 | Ride-: yo |
| 01:11.47 | spldart | Ok.. QuantumTim in windows xp 2.0.10 on busy server the Nvid GeForce 5200 fx gets 74 fps with driver 6.14.11.6375 |
| 01:11.54 | spldart | just fyi |
| 01:12.06 | spldart | rabbit chase on first page |
| 01:12.11 | QuantumTim | yeah, it's probably my card rather than the model |
| 01:12.18 | spldart | yeah |
| 01:12.22 | spldart | I'm starting to think |
| 01:12.28 | QuantumTim | irony is, the card is 2 or 3 years newer than the rest of the stuff in the pc |
| 01:12.39 | spldart | what processor |
| 01:12.49 | spldart | this 5200 is on a barton 2500 + |
| 01:12.49 | QuantumTim | P4 1.7ghz |
| 01:12.58 | spldart | not far enough to account for the diff |
| 01:13.02 | JeffM | is your back to the door? |
| 01:13.16 | QuantumTim | huh? |
| 01:13.18 | spldart | uhhhh? |
| 01:13.28 | JeffM | are you sitting with your back to the door? |
| 01:13.38 | QuantumTim | umm, no |
| 01:13.45 | spldart | umm ... yeah |
| 01:13.48 | spldart | lol |
| 01:13.55 | JeffM | ooo... evil sprits then spldart |
| 01:14.01 | JeffM | bad fung shue |
| 01:14.14 | spldart | ooOOoo.. I likes teh evils :) |
| 01:14.48 | JeffM | evil spriits take the form of lagpackets |
| 01:15.19 | spldart | runs away |
| 01:15.50 | spldart | You have been in a sillier mood than normal for quite a while now jeff... I like it |
| 01:15.59 | JeffM | screw you |
| 01:16.04 | spldart | LOLOL |
| 01:16.07 | spldart | z |
| 01:16.36 | spldart | Just ask pogo.. I really am shaking the timbers |
| 01:30.08 | Constitution | I didn't apply the patch for cloaked shot, as it was never finished |
| 01:30.23 | JeffM | is now |
| 01:31.16 | Constitution | ah, didn't catch that he updated it |
| 01:31.26 | KTL | cloaked shot? |
| 01:31.39 | JeffM | indeed |
| 01:31.43 | KTL | klingons! |
| 01:32.08 | Constitution | although the patch still doesn't include updates to the documentation or anything |
| 01:32.18 | Constitution | guess I could tack that in |
| 01:32.41 | JeffM | Constitution, he did the manpage |
| 01:33.11 | Constitution | ok |
| 01:33.15 | Constitution | bbl |
| 01:37.27 | KTL | with the ability to customize your tankmodel with an obj |
| 01:37.36 | KTL | what happens to tiny, narrow, obesity |
| 01:37.46 | JeffM | it scales |
| 01:37.50 | JeffM | skeeeqish |
| 01:38.17 | KTL | and those little fires beneath a tank when he jumps will just stay on the same spot i guess, possibly in the air |
| 01:38.34 | JeffM | that will be fixed with the TDD |
| 01:38.48 | KTL | ? tdd? |
| 01:39.08 | JeffM | Tank Definition Document |
| 01:39.13 | F687s | Ooh... |
| 01:39.14 | KTL | cool :D |
| 01:39.21 | KTL | meta information |
| 01:39.31 | JeffM | assembly info |
| 01:40.14 | spldart | Hrm.. in teh sample conf the good flags are listed alphabetically but in the man they are not it would seem.. Does it matter where I place them as long as it jives with my 'they are both good flags and are listed with those' idea? |
| 01:40.27 | KTL | it's not that with the model the user should be able to fire the bullets from somewhere higher or lower out of his tank |
| 01:40.37 | spldart | in the conf I did alphabetical like they were already |
| 01:40.50 | JeffM | spldart, whatever works ,it's not a biggie |
| 01:40.56 | spldart | k |
| 01:40.56 | *** join/#bzflag Ride- (n=Ride-@24-197-250-9.dhcp.stpt.wi.charter.com) |
| 01:40.57 | JeffM | KTL, nope |
| 01:41.00 | JeffM | that's fixed |
| 01:41.27 | KTL | and i suppose the tdd contains texture information too |
| 01:41.31 | JeffM | nope |
| 01:41.37 | KTL | hu? |
| 01:41.43 | JeffM | textures are special names |
| 01:41.47 | JeffM | red.png |
| 01:41.49 | JeffM | green.png |
| 01:41.51 | *** join/#bzflag Xenathi (n=5a9c5d52@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 01:41.51 | JeffM | in the tank dir |
| 01:41.57 | JeffM | one per team |
| 01:42.08 | KTL | but those wont fit for a customized user model |
| 01:42.26 | JeffM | each model dir has it's own set of textures |
| 01:42.32 | JeffM | so each model has it's own |
| 01:42.42 | javawizard2539 | So I'm editing NEWS to make note of the new Cloaked Shot flag |
| 01:42.51 | javawizard2539 | should I add it at the top of the 2.99 section or at the bottom? |
| 01:42.53 | F687s | There |
| 01:42.56 | JeffM | javawizard2539, top |
| 01:43.03 | javawizard2539 | Ok, thanks |
| 01:43.04 | spldart | It definitely wont be done tonight cuz I'll wanna build a test revision with my changes and look @ the man and use the bzfs_conf.html and everything after I'm done. And proofread fresh eyes. without beer. hehe.. Thanks for the couple/few days :) |
| 01:43.07 | KTL | mmm and i guess the model will be scaled so that it stays in the bounding box |
| 01:43.13 | JeffM | KTL, nope |
| 01:43.40 | KTL | someone could give tanks a huge spike on top to find stealths easier by looking around ... |
| 01:44.00 | JeffM | KTL, visibility still uses the fixed bounding box |
| 01:44.03 | JeffM | not the mesh |
| 01:44.09 | JeffM | so no they can't |
| 01:44.44 | KTL | mmm oki |
| 01:44.47 | CIA-16 | BZFlag: 03javawizard2539 * r16816 10/trunk/bzflag/NEWS: Modified NEWS to include info on new flag, Cloaked Shot |
| 01:44.54 | JeffM | all it changes is the drawn geomentry |
| 01:44.59 | JeffM | geometry |
| 01:46.13 | KTL | and later on it's probably the plan to let players download the meshes of others so that everyone sees each other in its own mesh |
| 01:46.21 | JeffM | I mean it's not like the guy can't mod his client now to show STs like that |
| 01:46.25 | JeffM | KTL, maybe |
| 01:46.33 | JeffM | if it all works out ok |
| 01:47.08 | KTL | thanks :) |
| 01:48.07 | javawizard2539 | Is there currently a menu option to disable autopause on window minimize? |
| 01:48.14 | *** join/#bzflag Epyon (n=Epyon@90-156-93-82.magma-net.pl) |
| 01:48.24 | JeffM | nope |
| 01:48.35 | JeffM | why would you want to? |
| 01:48.55 | javawizard2539 | Mostly for development, so I can spawn a tank, and then attack it using different flags while it's not moving |
| 01:49.08 | JeffM | don't need a menu option for dev things |
| 01:49.20 | JeffM | add them to the config by hand |
| 01:49.28 | javawizard2539 | What do you mean? |
| 01:49.34 | javawizard2539 | Is there an option for it in a config file? |
| 01:49.34 | JeffM | there is Win32noMin, that will prevent it from minimising |
| 01:49.43 | javawizard2539 | Ok |
| 01:51.30 | Erroneous | javawizard2539: don't forget to mark your patch assigned to you/accepted/closed in the patch tracker, or someone might try to apply it again :) |
| 01:52.10 | javawizard2539 | Thanks :) |
| 01:52.51 | javawizard2539 | Which reminds me, I forgot to mention it as SVN in the Flag Ideas wiki page as well :) |
| 01:53.08 | Erroneous | ah, true, I forgot that too :) |
| 01:53.40 | javawizard2539 | My name's not showing up in the Assigned To: dropdown box |
| 01:53.47 | *** join/#bzflag Think_Differentl (n=shedelj@unaffiliated/thinkdifferentl/x-838543) |
| 01:53.58 | JeffM | ooops |
| 01:53.59 | JeffM | one sec |
| 01:54.15 | JeffM | I hate that they don't use the same button for that |
| 01:54.19 | Erroneous | heh |
| 01:54.46 | CIA-16 | BZFlag: 03brlcad * r16817 10/trunk/bzflag/AUTHORS: credit Alexander Boyd for his recent contributions, particularly the cloaked shot flag |
| 01:54.51 | JeffM | done |
| 01:55.07 | javawizard2539 | Thanks |
| 01:55.30 | javawizard2539 | brlcad: Actually, the only contribution :) |
| 01:56.18 | Erroneous | there were a couple bugfixes too, even if they didn't make it into patches |
| 01:56.45 | spldart | I'm so excited :) |
| 01:56.53 | javawizard2539 | Still not showing up in Assigned To |
| 01:57.03 | javawizard2539 | I tried shift-refresh and it didn't help |
| 01:57.12 | Lukstr | Would implementing a new RNG be sufficient for the patch? |
| 01:57.35 | JeffM | RNG? |
| 01:57.42 | Lukstr | random number generator |
| 01:57.44 | Lukstr | bzrand.cxx |
| 01:57.46 | JeffM | why? |
| 01:57.52 | Lukstr | http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1609325&group_id=3248&atid=303248 |
| 01:57.54 | Erroneous | what is it with people not liking our rng? :) |
| 01:58.05 | Lukstr | ERrr |
| 01:58.08 | JeffM | Erroneous, that's the same guy |
| 01:58.09 | Lukstr | I may be retarded. |
| 01:58.13 | spldart | I'm shuffling the order of the listings in bzfs_conf.html to something that seems slightly more logical....:) |
| 01:58.25 | JeffM | patch... gone |
| 01:58.34 | Epyon | Lukstr, mersenne? |
| 01:58.36 | Lukstr | I totally misread it as a *wanted* patch |
| 01:58.40 | Erroneous | ahhh |
| 01:58.48 | Lukstr | ignore ignore ignore |
| 01:59.00 | Erroneous | no, stuff in the patch tracker is stuff that has been written but not applied :) |
| 01:59.09 | JeffM | javawizard2539, try now |
| 01:59.16 | Erroneous | that fellow was dissatisfied with our rng for some reason. not real sure why... |
| 01:59.21 | Lukstr | oh hahah |
| 01:59.29 | JeffM | Erroneous, cus he didn't write it |
| 01:59.35 | Erroneous | heh, could be |
| 01:59.37 | Lukstr | yeah, I misread, I thought it was "Someone please implement a new RNG" |
| 01:59.57 | Erroneous | no, that's about the last thing we need...thus why it's still stagnating in the patch tracker :) |
| 02:00.14 | Erroneous | had me scared there though :) |
| 02:00.25 | javawizard2539 | JeffM, Done. It worked |
| 02:00.26 | JeffM | I belive he's the same guy who also just rewrote the server |
| 02:00.41 | Erroneous | yeah, biggeruniverse did that (or tried to) |
| 02:00.48 | JeffM | started too |
| 02:01.20 | Epyon | Erroneous, you're using the system rand()? |
| 02:01.34 | Erroneous | Epyon: I don't even remember; check bzfrand.cxx |
| 02:01.38 | Erroneous | but probably so |
| 02:01.44 | Erroneous | we're not trying to do security or anything |
| 02:02.00 | JeffM | we just want a somewhat random number ;) |
| 02:02.00 | Lukstr | What is rand() used for that is important? |
| 02:02.03 | Erroneous | spawns don't have to be really random, they just have to be well-distributed and not predictable on a short scale |
| 02:02.06 | JeffM | Lukstr, static |
| 02:02.13 | Lukstr | what, as in noise? |
| 02:02.16 | JeffM | yep |
| 02:02.23 | Lukstr | whatever then, rand()'s fine |
| 02:02.25 | JeffM | and maybe clouds |
| 02:02.30 | Erroneous | tank spawns, flag spawns, noise generation, cracks in the windshield, that kind of stuff |
| 02:02.32 | JeffM | yeah, we are a freaking videop game ;) |
| 02:02.34 | Lukstr | JeffM: I'd implement perlin noise then |
| 02:02.44 | Epyon | Well for that rand()'s definitively enough. |
| 02:02.51 | Lukstr | perlin noise makes nice clouds :P |
| 02:02.54 | JeffM | Lukstr, why? it's a small texture |
| 02:03.01 | Erroneous | perlin noise clouds would be kickass :) I tried to do that once and killed the framerate to no end :) |
| 02:03.05 | Epyon | Lukstr, also searching for a patch idea? :P |
| 02:03.07 | JeffM | Lukstr, not to make the clouds to figure out where they start ;) |
| 02:03.26 | JeffM | the clouds are textures |
| 02:03.27 | Lukstr | JeffM: hah |
| 02:03.40 | JeffM | you have to remember how old bzflag is |
| 02:03.54 | Erroneous | yeah, currently they're just a single moving texture (not even overlays like quake 1) |
| 02:04.12 | JeffM | Erroneous, cheap in the screamers clouds they look fine :) |
| 02:04.21 | Erroneous | heh |
| 02:04.41 | *** join/#bzflag Think_Differentl (n=shedelj@unaffiliated/thinkdifferentl/x-838543) |
| 02:04.59 | JeffM | Erroneous, who's left? |
| 02:05.22 | Erroneous | left? I'm worried about who's right! |
| 02:06.12 | Epyon | You overpuzzled him. |
| 02:07.40 | spldart | doooom |
| 02:07.53 | Epyon | took the word from my mouth O.o |
| 02:08.01 | blast007 | spldart: let's sing the doom song! doom doom doooom doom doom doom! |
| 02:08.15 | Lukstr | blast007: damnit! go invader zim |
| 02:08.22 | blast007 | go, or no? |
| 02:08.35 | Lukstr | wua |
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| 02:14.06 | *** part/#bzflag pacman87 (n=Timothy@resnet-45-192.dorm.utexas.edu) |
| 02:15.32 | Lukstr | blast007: I just watched that part of that episode :p |
| 02:15.41 | blast007 | hehe |
| 02:18.46 | spldart | I love invader zim!@ |
| 02:18.51 | spldart | I got alotta plushies of gir |
| 02:19.09 | Lukstr | :o |
| 02:19.13 | Lukstr | gir plushies! from WHERE |
| 02:21.05 | spldart | Okies.. sample.conf and man is done.. methinks and the bzfs_conf.htm is partially done.. I'm goin to take a break since I sopped up to much beer with my noodle tonight and finish, proofread and test tomorrow :) |
| 02:21.06 | *** join/#bzflag pacman87 (n=Timothy@resnet-45-192.dorm.utexas.edu) |
| 02:21.51 | spldart | Once I'm finished I assume i hand over to a dev and have them upload the commit. |
| 02:22.04 | spldart | Did I mention this is so fun |
| 02:23.59 | blast007 | spldart: sure. You can post them onto the Patch Tracker on the SF.net project page for bzflag |
| 02:24.24 | spldart | k :) |
| 02:25.02 | spldart | I saw a squirrel... He was doin like this: chitter chitter chitter |
| 02:25.20 | spldart | dooo dee dooo dee doooo |
| 02:26.09 | blast007 | hehe |
| 02:28.43 | KingofCamelot | Is there an easy way to make all the standard BZFlag servers show up in a build from the latest SVN code? |
| 02:29.06 | spldart | is confused |
| 02:29.21 | spldart | latest svn checkout of branch or trunk? |
| 02:29.26 | *** join/#bzflag mibocote (n=matt@x-134-84-99-225.reshalls.umn.edu) |
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| 02:29.39 | KingofCamelot | trunk. if you build it, then you only see the test servers, about 6 of them |
| 02:30.46 | spldart | trunk shouldn't see the stable servers.. and shouldn't play on them |
| 02:30.53 | *** part/#bzflag pacman87 (n=Timothy@resnet-45-192.dorm.utexas.edu) |
| 02:30.53 | spldart | why do you want trunk to list them? |
| 02:31.06 | spldart | protocol changes |
| 02:31.37 | spldart | stable = branch and other 2.0 releases |
| 02:31.44 | Epyon | KingofCamelot, they are incompatible. |
| 02:31.50 | KingofCamelot | I know they ar |
| 02:31.52 | KingofCamelot | *are |
| 02:32.01 | KingofCamelot | but I'm playing around with some changes to the server listing |
| 02:32.13 | KingofCamelot | and I'd like more than the 6 test servers to show up for some better testing |
| 02:32.25 | spldart | trunk would have to allow viewing of 0026 proto iirc |
| 02:32.28 | spldart | but that's odd |
| 02:32.53 | spldart | You have to test on trunk servers |
| 02:33.30 | spldart | better testing is why I have a dedicated windows with vc8 and linux with gnu build tools on home lan |
| 02:33.43 | KingofCamelot | I'm not going to actually connect to any of the servers, I just want to view them :P |
| 02:34.57 | spldart | You'd have to make trunk see past it's proto.. which is what? in the 0040's or 0050's (been along time since I checked) and allow it to see proto 0026 servers off listserver |
| 02:35.24 | spldart | Your testing what?.. the server list gui? |
| 02:35.30 | KingofCamelot | Yea |
| 02:35.39 | *** join/#bzflag pacman87 (i=127@resnet-45-192.dorm.utexas.edu) |
| 02:35.48 | spldart | Ah.. so numbers of diff servers are important. heh |
| 02:36.09 | spldart | Sry.. can't help past this point.. you will need a dev |
| 02:36.10 | blast007 | KingofCamelot: set up a fake list server |
| 02:36.31 | blast007 | the list is just an HTTP request |
| 02:36.31 | spldart | Brilliant! brilliant /guiness |
| 02:36.39 | blast007 | heck, I could make one for you quick |
| 02:37.10 | blast007 | KingofCamelot: does it matter if the settings (shot count, player count, etc) are the same? |
| 02:37.18 | KingofCamelot | considering I'm not sure what goes into a list server yet, that'd be awesome if you could do that :) |
| 02:37.31 | KingofCamelot | Nope, I'd just like a variety of servers more than 6, heh |
| 02:37.37 | spldart | can yah zerox the current list server but translate to trunk? |
| 02:37.47 | blast007 | k |
| 02:37.53 | *** join/#bzflag FalseProphet (n=Gigi@unaffiliated/emonemo) |
| 02:38.06 | KingofCamelot | You're awesome blast007 :) |
| 02:38.32 | spldart | ~blast007++ |
| 02:40.12 | blast007 | of course, you won't be able to use auth, but I assume that's okay for now, right? just wanting to test the server listing itself? |
| 02:40.55 | *** part/#bzflag pacman87 (i=127@resnet-45-192.dorm.utexas.edu) |
| 02:41.03 | KingofCamelot | Yep, thats fine :) |
| 02:41.11 | *** join/#bzflag pacman87 (i=127@resnet-45-192.dorm.utexas.edu) |
| 02:42.47 | blast007 | KingofCamelot: okay, edit your bzflag config file ( http://my.bzflag.org/w/Config_File ) and locate the line starting with "#set list" |
| 02:42.59 | blast007 | take away the #, and then change the URL there to this: http://static.bzexcess.com/fakelist/ |
| 02:46.14 | Alesis-Novik | good night to you all |
| 02:46.14 | *** part/#bzflag javawizard2539 (n=javawiza@c-24-10-227-207.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 02:46.23 | blast007 | KingofCamelot: did that work? |
| 02:46.43 | spldart | night alesis-novik :) |
| 02:46.50 | *** join/#bzflag javawizard2539 (n=javawiza@c-24-10-227-207.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 02:47.07 | javawizard2539 | What is all this ~USERNAME++ stuff? |
| 02:47.12 | blast007 | javawizard2539: karma |
| 02:47.18 | javawizard2539 | Karma? |
| 02:47.24 | blast007 | ~karma |
| 02:47.24 | ibot | blast007 has karma of 2 |
| 02:47.31 | blast007 | eh |
| 02:47.37 | spldart | ooooops |
| 02:47.39 | javawizard2539 | ~karma |
| 02:47.39 | ibot | javawizard2539 has karma of 1 |
| 02:47.45 | javawizard2539 | What is karma? |
| 02:47.46 | blast007 | okay, apparently the karma database has been reset |
| 02:48.05 | TheRedBaron | ~karma TheRedBaron |
| 02:48.05 | ibot | theredbaron has karma of 107 |
| 02:48.11 | spldart | poop.. i'm zero |
| 02:48.12 | blast007 | or not... |
| 02:48.23 | spldart | lol |
| 02:48.25 | TheRedBaron | blast007: you've been baaaad |
| 02:48.31 | javawizard2539 | ~karma JeffM |
| 02:48.31 | ibot | jeffm has karma of 58 |
| 02:48.31 | blast007 | apparently |
| 02:48.33 | spldart | if not.. them I got my karma robbed :) |
| 02:48.36 | blast007 | I thought I had like 200 |
| 02:48.41 | TheRedBaron | ~karma patlabor221 |
| 02:48.41 | ibot | patlabor221 has neutral karma |
| 02:48.44 | spldart | I had like 7 lol |
| 02:49.15 | blast007 | last query I had 160 :( |
| 02:49.18 | Epyon | ~karma Epyon |
| 02:49.18 | ibot | epyon has karma of 63 |
| 02:49.25 | Epyon | Surprising O.o |
| 02:49.37 | Epyon | All things considered. |
| 02:49.51 | KingofCamelot | thank you very much blast007 :) |
| 02:49.56 | blast007 | KingofCamelot: np |
| 02:50.15 | blast007 | the list server just spits out lines like this: |
| 02:50.17 | blast007 | bzexcess.com:25155 BZFS0058 0000007a00050001003200000000000f140014001400140014001400c8 206.222.24.18 BZExcess - Random Map - 5 Shots, 20 Players |
| 02:50.31 | KingofCamelot | So it's pretty easy to edit? |
| 02:50.36 | blast007 | so I just made a few more, and threw it into an index.html file ;) |
| 02:51.13 | javawizard2539 | n/motd |
| 02:51.20 | javawizard2539 | ack, forgot again |
| 02:52.13 | spldart | ~karma Pogovina |
| 02:52.13 | ibot | pogovina has karma of 21 |
| 02:52.21 | spldart | BLACKJACK |
| 02:53.19 | spldart | Hrm... Has anyone got bzflag to run on psp? |
| 02:53.58 | Paul_PL | are there any mentors on-line? :) |
| 02:54.15 | blast007 | Paul_PL: yup |
| 02:54.17 | spldart | Eep |
| 02:58.36 | *** join/#bzflag BulletCatcher (n=bc@unaffiliated/bulletcatcher) |
| 02:58.45 | Lukstr | OOC, how many apps you guys received as of yet? |
| 03:00.49 | whodaman- | I'm having a problem with launching BZ on an old iBook G4 (ppc) |
| 03:00.59 | spldart | That's a query for the, @ the moment, quiet dev's. |
| 03:01.12 | whodaman- | the first time I downloaded 2.0.10 it worked fine |
| 03:01.32 | whodaman- | and now everytime I launch the .app nothing happens and it crashes |
| 03:01.49 | blast007 | delete your config and try again |
| 03:02.15 | BulletCatcher | whodaman-: Have you installed the latest updates from Apple? |
| 03:02.32 | blast007 | and then maybe try running the client in a window |
| 03:02.40 | Lukstr | spldart: if they say, pm me, |
| 03:02.42 | blast007 | 640x480 |
| 03:02.42 | Lukstr | :D |
| 03:02.49 | Lukstr | night all! |
| 03:02.55 | whodaman- | BulletCatcher, no |
| 03:02.57 | whodaman- | omg |
| 03:03.03 | whodaman- | ~blast007+++++++ |
| 03:03.29 | blast007 | only two ++ ;) i need karma now |
| 03:03.45 | spldart | okies Lukstr.. but I'm about to crash.. so iffy if you hear from me.. bear soaked |
| 03:03.50 | spldart | lol beer soaked |
| 03:08.10 | KingofCamelot | for a minute there I was trying to figure out how one could be bear soaked :P |
| 03:10.03 | *** join/#bzflag Think_Differentl (n=shedelj@pool-96-231-92-206.washdc.east.verizon.net) |
| 03:11.10 | spldart | :) |
| 03:12.19 | *** join/#bzflag Think_Differentl (n=shedelj@unaffiliated/thinkdifferentl/x-838543) |
| 03:12.53 | whodaman- | blast007, it was worth more than ++ :D |
| 03:13.05 | blast007 | ~karma blast007+++++ |
| 03:13.05 | ibot | blast007+++++ has karma of 1 |
| 03:13.07 | blast007 | :P |
| 03:13.57 | whodaman- | :D |
| 03:15.04 | blast007 | goes home |
| 03:15.14 | spldart | ~karma blast007++ |
| 03:15.14 | ibot | blast007++ has neutral karma |
| 03:15.15 | spldart | again |
| 03:15.23 | spldart | doh!!! |
| 03:15.32 | spldart | ~blast007++ |
| 03:15.40 | spldart | ~karma blast007 |
| 03:15.40 | ibot | blast007 has karma of 3 |
| 03:18.58 | *** join/#bzflag short_circuit (n=james@c-98-197-19-35.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) |
| 03:19.36 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM (n=Jeff@pool-71-109-218-124.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) |
| 03:19.45 | spldart | night |
| 03:20.24 | JeffM | mmmmm raw fish, fried chicken and mashed potatos :) |
| 03:20.56 | short_circuit | Pogovina says " MMMMM yeah!!!!" |
| 03:32.58 | JeffM | brlcad: how is brlcad game dev? ;) |
| 03:33.24 | brlcad | heh |
| 03:33.45 | JeffM | gonna get a bzflag one up there too? |
| 03:33.57 | brlcad | it should have been before it |
| 03:34.28 | brlcad | maybe their mods not pulling in order, I don't see it |
| 03:42.42 | *** join/#bzflag JBdiGriz (n=JBdiGriz@adsl-75-36-46-10.dsl.sndg02.sbcglobal.net) |
| 03:42.42 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o JBdiGriz] by ChanServ |
| 03:48.27 | *** join/#bzflag Archangel_13 (n=kevin@207-195-34-124.estv.hsdb.sasknet.sk.ca) |
| 03:59.12 | *** join/#bzflag ViciousM (n=max@cpe-024-211-248-161.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 04:11.35 | javawizard2539 | I asked this before, but now I can't find the answer. Is there a way to configure bzflag not to pause on window minimize? |
| 04:13.40 | brlcad | not without a code mod iirc |
| 04:15.18 | JeffM | you can make it not minimise but I think it'll still pauise |
| 04:15.42 | JeffM | add a config var called, PauseOnIconify or something |
| 04:15.55 | pacman87 | try using autopilot |
| 04:16.16 | pacman87 | that works on 2.0 |
| 04:19.28 | *** join/#bzflag zee669 (n=40b44f3a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/zeebrothers.net/x-c98f7a8a39fbf3f4) |
| 04:21.25 | *** join/#bzflag The (n=7decb001@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 04:21.44 | javawizard2539 | I could |
| 04:21.52 | javawizard2539 | pacman87, I could |
| 04:21.58 | javawizard2539 | The Idea is that the tank holds still |
| 04:22.10 | javawizard2539 | So that I can test out flags on it |
| 04:22.26 | JeffM | I'm trying to see where it even starts the pause |
| 04:22.27 | javawizard2539 | But I could modify the autopilot so that it doesn't move, and then revert it once I'm done testing |
| 04:28.18 | javawizard2539 | JeffM, playing.cxx, line 965 |
| 04:28.24 | javawizard2539 | that appears to be where it starts |
| 04:28.31 | JeffM | not for long ;) |
| 04:29.07 | javawizard2539 | So does adding it as a config thing sound good? |
| 04:29.15 | JeffM | I'm testing it now |
| 04:29.47 | JeffM | oh there is a var now |
| 04:29.56 | JeffM | see where it says BZDB.isTrue("noUnmapPause") |
| 04:30.03 | JeffM | then //handy for testing ;) |
| 04:30.10 | javawizard2539 | Hold on a sec, I'm going to update |
| 04:30.20 | JeffM | you should have it |
| 04:30.24 | JeffM | it's old code |
| 04:30.32 | brlcad | maybe a PauseNoFocus or PauseWhenMinimized to be platform generic |
| 04:30.43 | JeffM | brlcad: it's already got one |
| 04:30.50 | JeffM | for all plats |
| 04:30.58 | brlcad | aiight |
| 04:30.58 | JeffM | javawizard2539: just add set noUnmapPause true |
| 04:31.01 | JeffM | to your config |
| 04:31.16 | brlcad | that's a stupid name :) |
| 04:31.17 | javawizard2539 | Sorry, I completely missed it, I was just looking at the comment above |
| 04:31.21 | JeffM | heh |
| 04:31.25 | JeffM | so did I :) |
| 04:31.42 | JeffM | brlcad: the events are called unmap and map |
| 04:31.52 | javawizard2539 | How do I add stuff to config? |
| 04:32.03 | javawizard2539 | I didn't see a config file with an obvious name in the folders |
| 04:32.04 | JeffM | javawizard2539: just edit it in |
| 04:32.10 | JeffM | my bzflag files |
| 04:32.14 | JeffM | in my documents |
| 04:32.17 | javawizard2539 | Oh |
| 04:32.18 | javawizard2539 | Ok |
| 04:32.20 | JeffM | then in there in the 3.0 dir |
| 04:32.22 | brlcad | JeffM: sure, that's what it's doing to the context -- but the user doesn't need to know/care about that :) |
| 04:32.37 | JeffM | brlcad: indeed, I think it was added for debgers only |
| 04:32.45 | brlcad | to them they're pausing on minimization / iconfication / focus etc |
| 04:32.59 | JeffM | brlcad: fix it if you want ;) |
| 04:33.07 | brlcad | was |
| 04:40.08 | blast007 | JeffM / brlcad: Paul_PL emailed me part of his proposal to look over. Would you want to see it as well? It is the 'project' portion. |
| 04:40.55 | JeffM | probalby onece I lie down |
| 04:40.59 | JeffM | does not feel wells |
| 04:41.04 | hobbsc | anyone run bzflag with xgl? |
| 04:41.14 | hobbsc | i'm running it on opensuse and bzflag is like 50% opaque |
| 04:41.18 | hobbsc | so i see everything behind the game |
| 04:41.25 | blast007 | hobbsc: heh |
| 04:41.44 | hobbsc | blast007: i take it you've experience this? |
| 04:41.50 | blast007 | no |
| 04:41.52 | blast007 | just sounds funny |
| 04:41.53 | hobbsc | haven't played bzflag in months and i just noticed the problem |
| 04:41.58 | hobbsc | it's quite distracting hehe |
| 04:42.05 | blast007 | is XGL used for Compiz? |
| 04:42.12 | hobbsc | guess i could turn off xgl while i play, but that requires a restart of x |
| 04:42.14 | hobbsc | hm, not sure |
| 04:42.21 | hobbsc | it's just "desktop effects" in opensuse |
| 04:42.27 | blast007 | because I have an Ubuntu 7.10 system that runs Compiz Fusion |
| 04:42.31 | hobbsc | when i ran compiz/beryl under ubuntu, bzflag ran just fine |
| 04:42.56 | blast007 | from the XGL wikipedia page: "It supports hardware acceleration of all X, OpenGL and XVideo applications and graphical effects by a compositing window manager such as Compiz or Beryl." |
| 04:44.12 | blast007 | do other OpenGL games exhibit that same issue?> |
| 04:44.40 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM (n=JeffM@pool-71-109-218-124.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) |
| 04:45.08 | JeffM | hit me |
| 04:45.53 | pacman87 | deals JeffM another card |
| 04:46.54 | hobbsc | blast007: it's likely going to be compiz, then |
| 04:46.58 | hobbsc | i'd have to dig through the documentation |
| 04:47.19 | hobbsc | blast007: i also don't know that i have other opengl games |
| 04:47.20 | hobbsc | i can look |
| 04:47.26 | hobbsc | i don't really play games that often :) |
| 04:50.39 | hobbsc | it's not REALLY distracting, i just see the things behind it through clouds and in the chat box |
| 04:50.43 | hobbsc | because none of that gets drawn over |
| 04:57.44 | hobbsc | looks like it's just bzflag |
| 04:57.46 | hobbsc | drat! |
| 04:58.40 | JeffM | we don't do the depth buffer on the background |
| 04:59.02 | JeffM | we are special :) |
| 05:00.32 | hobbsc | hm |
| 05:00.36 | hobbsc | i guess i can just deal with it |
| 05:03.13 | javawizard2539 | So I wrote another flag. This one was trivial enough that I decided to write it mostly for the experience, so if you guys don't like it, don't feel bad rejecting it. |
| 05:03.23 | javawizard2539 | It's no teamkilling, and your shots don't kill teammates. |
| 05:03.32 | JeffM | that is a server setting now |
| 05:03.54 | pacman87 | friendly fire option? |
| 05:03.59 | JeffM | yeah |
| 05:04.01 | JeffM | no TK |
| 05:04.14 | JeffM | having it for some people is "meh" |
| 05:04.15 | javawizard2539 | Ok |
| 05:04.24 | javawizard2539 | The same is true for JP and R |
| 05:04.28 | JeffM | but it's understandable in need, so it should be ether on or off for everyone :) |
| 05:04.29 | brlcad | blast007: have him put it on the wiki or something |
| 05:04.35 | javawizard2539 | But it doesn't have to be in |
| 05:04.38 | blast007 | brlcad: okay. |
| 05:05.02 | javawizard2539 | What do you mean, put it on the wiki? |
| 05:05.05 | blast007 | brlcad: I have it in Google Docs, so would you want to see it now? or should I just have him put it on the wiki and then notify people here? |
| 05:05.12 | javawizard2539 | nvm |
| 05:05.14 | JeffM | well jump and rico as flags change how you play m assively |
| 05:05.18 | JeffM | tives strategy |
| 05:05.28 | javawizard2539 | Good point |
| 05:05.39 | JeffM | a safe shot flag, just gives you the ability to pray and spray :) |
| 05:05.44 | JeffM | no rael skill there |
| 05:05.53 | javawizard2539 | Ok |
| 05:05.55 | JeffM | sorry for bad typing |
| 05:06.00 | javawizard2539 | np |
| 05:06.10 | javawizard2539 | Honestly, it took about 4 lines of code, so I'm OK with that |
| 05:06.10 | JeffM | nyquill kicking in |
| 05:06.14 | JeffM | heh |
| 05:06.32 | JeffM | must not spend 500$ on a camera |
| 05:06.42 | Constitution | javawizard2539: congrats on the commit access :) |
| 05:06.48 | javawizard2539 | Thanks |
| 05:07.15 | brlcad | blast007: anywhere on-line is probably fine |
| 05:07.28 | brlcad | just ideally their effort, not yours ;) |
| 05:09.20 | JeffM | brlcad, you got a bitchen camera, what's the equivelant of a 55mm lens for these new fanled digigal SLRs? |
| 05:09.45 | brlcad | a 55mm lens :) |
| 05:10.07 | JeffM | the CCD is the same size as the 35mm negitive? |
| 05:10.37 | javawizard2539 | just exited the start menu on stupid winvista while trying to fix a file permissions problem |
| 05:10.37 | brlcad | they actually take the same lenses, at least for the useful slr's |
| 05:10.53 | JeffM | yeah but does it give the same FOV? |
| 05:11.00 | blast007 | JeffM: smaller than the 35mm |
| 05:11.10 | blast007 | varies from camera to camera |
| 05:11.14 | JeffM | ahh |
| 05:11.35 | JeffM | smaller means lenses will be more zoomed IIRC |
| 05:12.11 | javawizard2539 | Has anyone checked over the Flag Ideas list on the wiki recently? |
| 05:12.26 | JeffM | couple months ago |
| 05:12.30 | JeffM | what do you want to do? |
| 05:12.57 | brlcad | yeah, it varies |
| 05:13.03 | javawizard2539 | JeffM, Just wondering, there's a list of about 20 flags pending approval or rejection |
| 05:13.05 | brlcad | are you looking at a particular one? |
| 05:13.11 | JeffM | 20? |
| 05:13.14 | JeffM | that many? |
| 05:13.22 | JeffM | I thought it was like 5 |
| 05:13.24 | JeffM | hmm |
| 05:13.27 | javawizard2539 | Hold on a sec |
| 05:14.01 | javawizard2539 | Somewhere between 20 and 30 |
| 05:14.07 | JeffM | wow |
| 05:14.19 | javawizard2539 | Including one where the description is more than a page long |
| 05:14.27 | javawizard2539 | That seems like an automatic reject to me |
| 05:14.28 | JeffM | ball? |
| 05:14.34 | javawizard2539 | No, Nuclear Fallout |
| 05:14.38 | JeffM | heh |
| 05:14.42 | JeffM | auto fail |
| 05:15.12 | javawizard2539 | I added the Steerable Shot one and a few others |
| 05:15.20 | javawizard2539 | Basically, the ones with the really shot descriptions were by me |
| 05:15.43 | javawizard2539 | I should probably mention I don't expect all (or even most) of them to get approved |
| 05:15.44 | JeffM | all down to sniper, I say no to |
| 05:16.34 | JeffM | spinner isn't too bad but not something that wows me |
| 05:16.41 | javawizard2539 | What about ss? It seems like it would require new skill and strategy, thereby making the game more interesting |
| 05:16.45 | brlcad | reads |
| 05:16.47 | javawizard2539 | But if there's a reason, I'm ok with it |
| 05:17.08 | JeffM | it forces specific input modes |
| 05:17.15 | JeffM | and is way too complex |
| 05:17.48 | javawizard2539 | Ok |
| 05:18.03 | JeffM | none of them shout to me "add me add me" |
| 05:18.13 | JeffM | we have a lot of flags |
| 05:18.28 | JeffM | CS was not bad cus it's a varion on a theme we have |
| 05:18.36 | JeffM | the others are all prety out there |
| 05:18.44 | JeffM | many are munchkin flags |
| 05:19.09 | javawizard2539 | Ok |
| 05:19.17 | javawizard2539 | What about the ones that are already approved? |
| 05:19.50 | JeffM | I would rather see bug fixes before we implement them |
| 05:19.58 | JeffM | extra shot is nice |
| 05:20.00 | JeffM | I like that one |
| 05:20.16 | JeffM | long reload also not bad |
| 05:20.27 | JeffM | again variations on themses we have |
| 05:20.35 | JeffM | don't stop could be funny |
| 05:20.36 | javawizard2539 | Ok |
| 05:20.45 | javawizard2539 | I could work on extra shot |
| 05:20.45 | JeffM | slo mo, maybe |
| 05:20.55 | JeffM | javawizard2539, bugs..seriously |
| 05:20.56 | JeffM | please |
| 05:20.59 | JeffM | prety please |
| 05:21.03 | javawizard2539 | I know |
| 05:21.06 | JeffM | pretty pretty pretty please |
| 05:21.12 | blast007 | :) |
| 05:21.14 | javawizard2539 | Remember, I'm still way new to bzflag code and c++ |
| 05:21.23 | javawizard2539 | I'll try to work on bugs if you want |
| 05:21.24 | JeffM | yeah and bugs can teach you code too |
| 05:21.40 | JeffM | new flags don't go anywhere if 3.0 never ships |
| 05:21.48 | javawizard2539 | Good point |
| 05:21.57 | JeffM | techincay we are feature frosen now too |
| 05:22.00 | JeffM | ish |
| 05:22.04 | javawizard2539 | Ok |
| 05:22.13 | JeffM | we would like to release 3.0 before summer |
| 05:22.16 | brlcad | frozen solid |
| 05:22.19 | javawizard2539 | So basically, it's fix bugs, and then release 3.0? |
| 05:22.23 | JeffM | bingo |
| 05:22.29 | purple_cow | slushy freeze ;) |
| 05:22.38 | javawizard2539 | Ok |
| 05:22.52 | javawizard2539 | Where should I look for bugs to fix, SF bug tracker or BUGS file? |
| 05:22.57 | JeffM | yes |
| 05:22.59 | JeffM | both |
| 05:23.06 | javawizard2539 | Ok |
| 05:33.27 | javawizard2539 | So I found one I might be able to work on. Flag help falls into the radar area when radar and mousebox are big |
| 05:33.38 | brlcad | could see flame thrower, "maybe" a variation on grenade/artillery, and false enemy |
| 05:33.54 | JeffM | SW does the flame thrower, better |
| 05:33.56 | brlcad | the rest would be a 'no' or would require major mods |
| 05:34.11 | javawizard2539 | Would it work if the flag help was moved to the top if the radar size is too big? |
| 05:34.56 | brlcad | sw is non-directional, flamethrower would be conic |
| 05:35.01 | brlcad | s/non/omni/ |
| 05:35.18 | JeffM | brlcad, they all kill i n short range, so there is no advantage too the flamethrower |
| 05:36.23 | L4m3r | with MG and SW, I don't think we need a flamethrower |
| 05:36.35 | JeffM | exactly |
| 05:37.00 | brlcad | i'd see it working as much higher speed than shockwave, and requiring being in the blast cone for a specified time (e.g. 1 sec) before a kill |
| 05:37.18 | L4m3r | nasty :P |
| 05:37.22 | JeffM | that seems too complex |
| 05:37.26 | brlcad | MG is useless, it's just a short straight shot |
| 05:37.39 | L4m3r | MG is actually very poweful when tuned properly |
| 05:37.40 | brlcad | with a fast reload |
| 05:37.47 | JeffM | dtr and I have a plan for MG:) |
| 05:37.53 | JeffM | give it some accuracy problems :) |
| 05:37.56 | JeffM | so it's more of a cone |
| 05:38.01 | brlcad | i.e. turn it into a cone |
| 05:38.02 | brlcad | yeah |
| 05:38.06 | L4m3r | if you get the vars right you can get a continuous stream of shots |
| 05:38.22 | brlcad | it needs to be a cone and have a longer default range |
| 05:38.23 | L4m3r | and with a medium range that is deadly |
| 05:38.30 | brlcad | the default is too short |
| 05:38.34 | L4m3r | yeah |
| 05:38.37 | L4m3r | and too fast |
| 05:38.49 | L4m3r | the shots should spread more |
| 05:39.04 | brlcad | reload seems fine to me |
| 05:39.14 | L4m3r | reload is fine |
| 05:39.27 | L4m3r | but the magazine empties too fast |
| 05:40.11 | L4m3r | I usually adjust the delay so that by the time the magazine is empty, the first shot has reloaded :P |
| 05:40.21 | javawizard2539 | What is HelpFlagsMenu.cxx? |
| 05:41.25 | brlcad | if MG did a cone and was rewired, flamethrower becomes much less interesting |
| 05:41.33 | brlcad | otherwise the point really is to have a conic kill radius |
| 05:41.35 | L4m3r | indeed |
| 05:41.46 | brlcad | there is value in that |
| 05:42.33 | L4m3r | The only thing I can think of that'd make a flamethrower really, really cool is more flamelike behavior in the shots |
| 05:42.48 | L4m3r | slow movement, spread out when hitting objects, etc |
| 05:44.00 | L4m3r | if you've ever played with a flamethrower in, say GTA, for instance... |
| 05:45.22 | JeffM | there we go, rikered |
| 05:45.40 | L4m3r | which? |
| 05:46.28 | javawizard2539 | What is HelpFlagsMenu.cxx? |
| 05:47.53 | L4m3r | good lord, there's a page-long flag idea |
| 05:48.19 | JeffM | L4m3r, yeah, auto fail |
| 05:50.10 | L4m3r | it's usually one person who does that |
| 05:50.21 | L4m3r | he did the same thing on the ideas page iirc |
| 05:51.07 | BulletCatcher | javawizard2539: It looks like HelpFlagsMenu.cxx makes a list of either the good or bad flags, for the help menu. HelpFlagsMenu() is called from HelpMenu.cxx. |
| 05:51.21 | javawizard2539 | Ok |
| 05:51.45 | javawizard2539 | Where is the code that adds the description of the current flag under your radar? |
| 05:51.51 | javawizard2539 | *under your mousebox |
| 05:52.59 | BulletCatcher | in src/common/Flag.cxx |
| 05:53.14 | javawizard2539 | Actually, I just found it and it's in hudrenderer.cxx |
| 05:55.44 | hobbsc | just tried to force 100% opacity in bzflag using the compiz cssm to no avail |
| 05:55.47 | hobbsc | still transparent :/ |
| 06:01.11 | *** join/#bzflag QuantumBeep (i=QB@72.190.51.216) |
| 06:04.06 | javawizard2539 | So I'm working on fixing the bug where the description of the current flag is showing up under the console if it overlaps the mousebox, and I'm looking at 2 solutions. |
| 06:04.21 | javawizard2539 | The first would be to move the description to the top only if it's going to be overlapped |
| 06:04.37 | javawizard2539 | The second would be to bump it up, so it's in the middle of the mousebox, so it's just above the console |
| 06:04.53 | javawizard2539 | Any opinions on which one I should do? |
| 06:06.48 | pacman87 | my vote's for above the mousebox, as i'd prefer to keep the view center as clear as possible |
| 06:07.12 | javawizard2539 | I was leaning that way too |
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| 06:07.18 | javawizard2539 | But I figured i should get input before proceeding |
| 06:07.23 | javawizard2539 | I'll do it that way then |
| 06:11.11 | pacman87 | the only problem might come with the plans for the mousebox |
| 06:11.26 | pacman87 | changing it to a U, with an open top |
| 06:11.53 | pacman87 | so putting text up there might look a little odd, since there's no line to start with |
| 06:12.14 | pacman87 | but i still think it's better than the middle of what you're aiming at |
| 06:12.32 | BulletCatcher | My vote would be to leave it the way it is. Players who have increased their radar size enough to see this problem probably have already urned off flag help. |
| 06:15.11 | CIA-16 | BZFlag: 03brlcad * r16818 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzflag/ (defaultBZDB.cxx playing.cxx): rename noUnmapPause to pauseOnMinimize with opposite logical meaning but default set to 1. added as a local variable that can be set by users as desired. |
| 06:15.26 | BulletCatcher | But if you must move it, above the mouse box is better than inside. |
| 06:17.57 | javawizard2539 | BulletCatcher, it was in the BUGS file so I thought it was a bug that should be fixed |
| 06:19.45 | CIA-16 | BZFlag: 03brlcad * r16819 10/trunk/bzflag/NEWS: Exposed pauseOnMinimize local variable for iconify pausing |
| 06:20.54 | pacman87 | could the same thing be done for the auto-minimize when losing focus? |
| 06:22.59 | javawizard2539 | IIRC It stops OpenGL rendering when the window isn't focused for some reason so probably not without extensive modification |
| 06:27.18 | BulletCatcher | javawizard2539: One person's bug is another's feature. :-) I agree that the overlapping text is ugly, but the same kind of problem occurs when the player list is very long. There is only so much space on the screen. |
| 06:29.06 | javawizard2539 | BulletCatcher, maybe it should be a menu option, whether the text displays at the top or bottom of the mousebox. What do you think about that? |
| 06:31.10 | pacman87 | ~svn |
| 06:31.11 | ibot | Subversion (aka SVN) is version control software that aims to be a better CVS than CVS. See http://subversion.tigris.org/. |
| 06:31.17 | pacman87 | ~bzsvn |
| 06:31.17 | ibot | methinks bzsvn is http://my.bzflag.org/w/BZFlag_SVN and svn co https://bzflag.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/bzflag/trunk/bzflag bzflag |
| 06:32.19 | BulletCatcher | I was thinking about making it optional whether the panel or the flaghelp is on top of the other. The same would go fo the player scores. |
| 06:32.54 | BulletCatcher | I use a big radar, and on busy servers (e.g., Missilewar) I often must turn off player scores altogether so I can see the radar. |
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| 13:27.58 | TheRedBaron | fun. |
| 13:29.11 | TheRedBaron | Same error after compiling using VC8, and then running bzflag.exe: error: "The Procedure Entry Point WSAPoll could not be located in the dynamic LInk Library WS2_32.dll" |
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| 13:38.40 | Manu | TheRedBaron: a lot of fun :) |
| 13:39.57 | TheRedBaron | yea :) |
| 13:40.20 | Manu | sounds like wrong dll |
| 13:40.27 | TheRedBaron | yea |
| 13:40.37 | TheRedBaron | has two versions of the dll, a 32 bit on and a 64bit one. |
| 13:40.46 | TheRedBaron | the joys of XP x64 |
| 13:40.47 | Manu | yes, is what I mean |
| 13:41.17 | TheRedBaron | trying to double check i used the rigth ws32_32.lib |
| 13:41.37 | Manu | do you have in windows the ldd.exe command? |
| 13:42.01 | Manu | or any tool to print shared library dependencies |
| 13:42.41 | TheRedBaron | not that i know of |
| 13:43.42 | Manu | TheRedBaron: wait for a windows dev ;) I'm linux guy |
| 13:44.45 | TheRedBaron | hehe :) |
| 13:45.29 | TheRedBaron | is going to try using different vers of the ws2_32.lib during compiling. |
| 13:45.43 | TheRedBaron | while i wait for a windows dev :) |
| 13:45.46 | Lukstr | Ugh, xp 64 |
| 13:45.59 | TheRedBaron | luvs xp x64 |
| 13:46.03 | Lukstr | hates it |
| 13:46.52 | Lukstr | 64-bit anything always seems to get less attention than its 32 bit counterpart, and is thus inferior in usability usually |
| 13:47.01 | TheRedBaron | blinks |
| 13:47.25 | Lukstr | My experiences with 64-bit Ubuntu and 64-bit XP have both been terrible |
| 13:47.37 | TheRedBaron | i can't recall being unable to run something on x64, bcause its 64bit. |
| 13:47.55 | Lukstr | I couldn't run a lot of things :/ |
| 13:47.55 | TheRedBaron | i'm sure right after its release there were those problems |
| 13:48.07 | TheRedBaron | Lukstr: such as? |
| 13:48.09 | Lukstr | TheRedBaron: MS has abandoned xp64 though |
| 13:48.12 | *** join/#bzflag Think_Differentl (n=shedelj@unaffiliated/thinkdifferentl/x-838543) |
| 13:48.30 | Lukstr | TheRedBaron: I don't even remember (it was a year ago I used it) but several tools that I needed for work just straight up bombed |
| 13:49.06 | Lukstr | I mean, yeah it's fairly good |
| 13:49.28 | TheRedBaron | has alot of the 2003 kernel in it. |
| 13:49.35 | Lukstr | but due to some, well I shouldn't say bad, but irresponsible programming, it's a pita |
| 13:51.21 | TheRedBaron | sorry to hear that :) |
| 13:51.28 | Lukstr | Oh, and there were some weird peripherals I had to use with XP that did not have 64 bit drivers |
| 13:51.39 | TheRedBaron | ah true that. |
| 13:51.50 | Lukstr | And I think my printer wouldn't work |
| 13:51.54 | TheRedBaron | I had an old HP cheapo laser jet that wouldn't work |
| 13:51.58 | Lukstr | yeah |
| 13:52.15 | TheRedBaron | but my new one works great. Color printer works beautifully also |
| 13:52.19 | Lukstr | I wish it had better support for 32 bit stuff but oh well |
| 13:52.34 | Lukstr | I screw around in windows too much for 64 bit to be worth my while |
| 13:52.53 | Lukstr | besides, windows is primarily for gaming/screwing around for me |
| 13:52.59 | TheRedBaron | over-all 64bit support for windows has drastically improved. I see no reason not to use it, if you're running 4gig of ram or more |
| 13:53.19 | Lukstr | Ubuntu is a different story, when I installed the 64 bit kernel, my wireless card stopped working entirely :S |
| 13:53.22 | TheRedBaron | ah, i use it as my work station. and I have a 2nd harddisk with xp32 - for gaming. |
| 13:53.29 | Lukstr | yeah |
| 13:53.41 | TheRedBaron | I'd make some remarks about wireless and linux - but that would be unsportsmanlike of me |
| 13:53.46 | Lukstr | haha |
| 13:53.47 | TheRedBaron | ;) |
| 13:53.53 | Lukstr | I'm with you |
| 13:54.26 | TheRedBaron | put Fedora 8 on his powerbook g4, and had a bear getting the wireless to work. |
| 13:54.54 | Lukstr | heh yeah |
| 13:55.27 | Lukstr | the whole point of linux on a laptop to me is so I can sit somewhere and do work over ssh |
| 13:55.39 | Lukstr | having to be wired sort of defeats the purpose for me |
| 13:55.59 | blast007 | I'd make some remark about Fedora sucking, but everyone already knows it. ;) |
| 13:56.16 | Lukstr | hehe |
| 13:56.30 | blast007 | yum uninstall yum *ack* |
| 13:56.37 | Lukstr | haha |
| 13:57.20 | Lukstr | some kid in one of my classes was complaining to the prof that he couldn't get his program running properly (something along the lines of the application was "very distorted" when he ran it in fedora, at home) and the prof just replied "Don't use fedora" |
| 13:57.32 | Lukstr | "Well, I have to" |
| 13:57.34 | Lukstr | "Then go away" |
| 13:57.44 | TheRedBaron | ~pickle blast007 |
| 13:57.45 | ibot | ACTION crams blast007 in a barrel, adds some brine and seasoning, and lets blast007 sit for a long while in a dark room until blast007 is ripe |
| 13:57.48 | TheRedBaron | ;) |
| 13:58.10 | TheRedBaron | likes RedHat |
| 13:58.40 | Lukstr | I have no gripe with Fedora, so long as I can ssh into my ubuntu box :) |
| 13:58.40 | blast007 | I hate RedHat |
| 13:58.50 | blast007 | they can't even get their own packages to work right |
| 13:58.53 | jorgenpt | GENTOO RULEZ! |
| 13:59.02 | blast007 | I could not get Fedora Directory Server to work, on FEDORA |
| 13:59.04 | jorgenpt | Sorry, that should've been |
| 13:59.09 | blast007 | their Java package didn't support it :P |
| 13:59.13 | jorgenpt | GENTOO *R*u*L*e*Z* |
| 13:59.41 | blast007 | I think they had GNU Java or something on there |
| 13:59.44 | blast007 | and it needed Sun Java |
| 14:00.18 | Lukstr | blast007: yeah, that sounds about right |
| 14:00.20 | jorgenpt | gcj is crap :( |
| 14:00.21 | spldart | wireless? linux??? bit of a learning curve but you have all kinda of power :) |
| 14:00.53 | Lukstr | spldart: who wants a learning curve for connecting wirelessly? |
| 14:01.02 | Lukstr | it should involve one step |
| 14:01.05 | Lukstr | "connect me" |
| 14:01.10 | spldart | Someone who wants the kind of power you have over the connection |
| 14:01.18 | spldart | I depend on wireless linux everyday |
| 14:01.23 | blast007 | I really tried to use CentOS and Fedora, but I ended up seriously uninstalling yum :P |
| 14:01.36 | Lukstr | spldart: Okay, well that sort of power should be available, but not the only option |
| 14:01.39 | blast007 | I hate that package manager... it's so slow |
| 14:02.17 | spldart | I couldn't have such a stable AP using a windows box. At least that's my experience |
| 14:02.57 | Lukstr | oh, well I've never set up an AP either way |
| 14:03.06 | spldart | ah |
| 14:03.21 | TheRedBaron | blast007: ouch. Thats all I use. Fedora for desktops - CentOS for servers |
| 14:03.23 | Lukstr | I just use an all-in-one router-access-point |
| 14:03.29 | spldart | I'm a bit of a wireless hack.. can-taenas and all |
| 14:03.34 | Lukstr | heh |
| 14:04.13 | blast007 | TheRedBaron: Do you just enjoy endless torture? |
| 14:04.36 | [dmp] | he got married, right? ;) |
| 14:04.41 | blast007 | oh yeah, nvm |
| 14:04.49 | blast007 | explains a lot |
| 14:04.54 | spldart | heh |
| 14:05.41 | Manu | he is 27 days old in the marriage experience :) |
| 14:05.47 | Manu | a noob |
| 14:05.51 | spldart | so your an ubuntite? |
| 14:06.01 | spldart | LOL |
| 14:06.18 | spldart | I have about 10 years with old wife and been with pogo now almost 8 |
| 14:06.41 | Manu | spldart: I'm older ;) |
| 14:06.55 | spldart | Me thinks |
| 14:06.59 | spldart | I'm 40ish |
| 14:07.07 | Manu | I'm older... ;) |
| 14:07.16 | spldart | yes |
| 14:07.31 | spldart | I had that impression from even something that was said last day or two |
| 14:07.34 | Lukstr | spldart: so you're not a GSoC student? |
| 14:07.38 | spldart | 50ish? |
| 14:07.39 | Lukstr | :P |
| 14:07.48 | Manu | spldart: 40-50 |
| 14:07.53 | spldart | ic |
| 14:08.39 | spldart | Lukstr... No.. I've been with bzflag for years now hosting servers, playing and being a helper as much as possible testing code. |
| 14:09.00 | spldart | But one is never to old to be a student |
| 14:09.01 | Lukstr | spldart: that's totally what I thought |
| 14:09.04 | Lukstr | but then the other day |
| 14:09.23 | Lukstr | for some reason, I thought you might be a student. No idea why. must've been something you said |
| 14:09.44 | spldart | I'm a goof if that's it |
| 14:09.55 | spldart | :) |
| 14:10.00 | TheRedBaron | hah! |
| 14:10.07 | spldart | jumps |
| 14:10.23 | spldart | found a .dll that was naughty? |
| 14:10.25 | TheRedBaron | loves the yum |
| 14:10.31 | spldart | oh |
| 14:10.33 | blast007 | yum install cookies yum yum |
| 14:10.45 | TheRedBaron | no, laughing at the blast007 [dmp] and Manu :) |
| 14:11.11 | blast007 | I'd rather use 'cp' to install packages :P |
| 14:12.50 | TheRedBaron | suspects its curl... |
| 14:12.52 | blast007 | we had tried using Fedora in college once for our Asterisk server. Yum kept giving us an error, on a fresh install. Something to the detail of "it didn't work" |
| 14:13.04 | TheRedBaron | blast007: you're jinxed - thats it |
| 14:13.14 | Manu | blast007: cp --help && apt-get install whatverpackate? ;) |
| 14:13.30 | blast007 | so the other student ditched it, and put Gentoo on... and we had it running faster.. |
| 14:13.40 | blast007 | sooner* |
| 14:14.09 | blast007 | Manu: heh |
| 14:14.22 | blast007 | I started off mainly on Slackware |
| 14:14.38 | blast007 | dependency tracking? what dependency tracking? |
| 14:15.17 | blast007 | you downloaded your packages yourself, and then ran 'installpkg filename.tgz' |
| 14:17.59 | spldart | Wee.. I think I might be done with the new man, bzfs.conf and bzfs_conf.html.. gotta proofread everything later and then hand it over to devs :) |
| 14:18.06 | blast007 | cool |
| 14:18.27 | blast007 | do you have the new flag, Cloaked Shot? |
| 14:18.32 | spldart | yes |
| 14:18.35 | blast007 | nice |
| 14:19.17 | spldart | I shifted a few things around.. I put LG right after J and CS right after C while trying to keep the formating straight. |
| 14:19.48 | pacman87 | slackware ftw! |
| 14:20.07 | spldart | http://70.240.251.10:8080/bzflag_trunk/bzfs_conf.html |
| 14:21.21 | spldart | I guess I shouldn't have said new but updated earlier.. sry.. I'm not stealing credit |
| 14:21.23 | blast007 | spldart: there's also an Open FFA game style now |
| 14:21.27 | blast007 | iirc, it's -offa |
| 14:21.30 | spldart | ooOOoo |
| 14:21.34 | spldart | Your right |
| 14:21.51 | spldart | Guess I'll be adding that this evening after work |
| 14:22.21 | blast007 | :) |
| 14:22.53 | spldart | I'm heading in a little late today. Got alot on my plate for work :(* |
| 14:24.59 | brlcad | puts meatballs on spldart's plate |
| 14:25.07 | spldart | mmMMmm my 41.4 gig torrent is getting close |
| 14:25.19 | spldart | At least they aren't chocolate salty balls |
| 14:25.20 | brlcad | pr0n? |
| 14:25.21 | spldart | :) |
| 14:25.26 | spldart | Noperz |
| 14:25.31 | brlcad | that's a lot of porn |
| 14:25.41 | blast007 | it's in HD |
| 14:25.42 | spldart | gets spetti sauce for teh meatballs |
| 14:25.54 | spldart | I'tz not pr0n |
| 14:25.56 | spldart | hehe |
| 14:26.05 | brlcad | uh huh |
| 14:26.16 | TheRedBaron | where did i misplace my glew... |
| 14:26.31 | blast007 | "Every IP Address Ever (hacker tool)" |
| 14:26.33 | spldart | mesa ate it |
| 14:26.55 | spldart | Or was it sdl |
| 14:33.02 | Deepa|AFK | useful |
| 14:33.08 | Deepa|AFK | does it support IPv6? |
| 14:33.38 | blast007 | Deepa|AFK: that's probably why it's 41GB |
| 14:33.55 | Deepa|AFK | IPX compatible? |
| 14:34.23 | TheRedBaron | hrm, when trying to run fresh build, "No fonts found (the -directory otion may help). exiting" |
| 14:34.26 | TheRedBaron | who stole my fonts? |
| 14:34.32 | Deepa|AFK | I did, terribly sorry |
| 14:34.38 | Deepa|AFK | Didn't think you'd need them today |
| 14:34.43 | TheRedBaron | return them at once! |
| 14:34.52 | Deepa|AFK | even the blue ones :O? |
| 14:34.55 | TheRedBaron | ~slap Deepa|AFK |
| 14:34.55 | ibot | ACTION slaps Deepa|AFK, keep your grubby fingers to yourself! |
| 14:35.12 | *** join/#bzflag delusional_ (n=delusion@151.201.226.72) |
| 14:35.18 | Deepa|AFK | Want a c64 remix instead? |
| 14:35.30 | Deepa|AFK | Due to silly and strange reasons it' in MP3 |
| 14:36.00 | *** join/#bzflag aiTor (n=d97c44a6@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 14:36.00 | blast007 | http://static.bzexcess.com/how-to-catch-script-kiddies.gif |
| 14:36.36 | aiTor | hi |
| 14:36.48 | blast007 | hello |
| 14:36.51 | blast007 | goodbye |
| 14:37.23 | Deepa|AFK | heh |
| 14:37.31 | blast007 | TheRedBaron: run the bzflag.exe from the root directory of the source |
| 14:37.33 | Deepa|AFK | That's actually really evil |
| 14:39.13 | TheRedBaron | blast007: not in MSVC build dir? |
| 14:43.39 | *** join/#bzflag Think_Differentl (n=shedelj@unaffiliated/thinkdifferentl/x-838543) |
| 14:44.20 | *** join/#bzflag Upsette1 (n=Ups@i577B44DD.versanet.de) |
| 14:48.06 | blast007 | TheRedBaron: not unless you copy the data/ directory into that location as well, or pass it a -directory paramater |
| 14:48.16 | TheRedBaron | rgr |
| 14:48.17 | TheRedBaron | got it |
| 14:48.31 | TheRedBaron | it verks |
| 14:48.45 | blast007 | it copies the exe into the root of the source on build |
| 14:49.18 | TheRedBaron | libcurl fails to build |
| 14:49.31 | TheRedBaron | so i borrowed libcurl.dll from 2.0.10 - and it works fine. |
| 14:49.35 | blast007 | heh |
| 14:49.38 | spldart | Simpsons! |
| 14:50.05 | TheRedBaron | and for xp x64 you need the 2003 sdk |
| 14:50.22 | blast007 | http://static.bzexcess.com/virtualpc.png <--- those were the good old day... now Microsoft owns Virtual PC, and the message is a bit more.. professional. |
| 14:50.59 | TheRedBaron | lol :) |
| 14:51.06 | Lukstr | hahah |
| 14:51.18 | TheRedBaron | contemplates trying that with vmware |
| 14:51.23 | Lukstr | I don't get why everyone has to be professional |
| 14:51.34 | Lukstr | TheRedBaron: it should work with vmware (it used to) |
| 14:51.38 | Lukstr | it's ugly though :P |
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| 14:52.10 | blast007 | or try running Virtual PC inside VMWare, and then inside there, run VMWare |
| 14:52.15 | Lukstr | hahah |
| 14:54.28 | TheRedBaron | wonders if bz will build/run on vc9 with the fixed sdk |
| 14:56.43 | blast007 | TheRedBaron: was jeff thinking that VC9 was the issue, or the 64-bitness of your OS? |
| 14:56.53 | TheRedBaron | vc9 |
| 14:57.03 | TheRedBaron | and i'm thinking its the 64-bitness |
| 14:57.04 | blast007 | did he know it was 64-bit? |
| 14:57.11 | TheRedBaron | as i got the exact error message with vc8 |
| 14:57.15 | TheRedBaron | yes I told him it was xp x64 |
| 14:57.16 | blast007 | ah |
| 14:57.25 | TheRedBaron | digs through his logs |
| 14:57.41 | blast007 | maybe I'll have to get an install of XP x64 going :) |
| 14:58.00 | TheRedBaron | (7:05:21 PM) TheRedBaron: yup |
| 14:58.00 | TheRedBaron | (7:05:33 PM) TheRedBaron: XP x64 |
| 14:58.00 | TheRedBaron | (7:05:36 PM) JeffM: oh |
| 14:58.00 | TheRedBaron | (7:05:41 PM) JeffM: well still |
| 14:58.00 | TheRedBaron | (7:05:44 PM) TheRedBaron: but i specified the 32bit |
| 14:58.01 | TheRedBaron | (7:05:48 PM) JeffM: well we have heard of issues in VC9 |
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| 15:11.11 | TheRedBaron | blast007: curl is deffinately messed up on xp x64 |
| 15:12.02 | TheRedBaron | well - thats probably a hyperbole from my ignorance |
| 15:15.26 | blast007 | is it what builds from right in our source directory? |
| 15:16.00 | Lukstr | I got kicked for team killing :( Apparently I'm just awful at hitting the enemy and my bullets tend to kill me and those around me more often |
| 15:16.16 | blast007 | Lukstr: hehe... |
| 15:16.24 | blast007 | play as a rouge then ;) |
| 15:16.30 | Lukstr | it was a rabbit game |
| 15:16.35 | blast007 | ah |
| 15:16.44 | blast007 | then stop shooting ;) |
| 15:17.47 | Lukstr | haha |
| 15:17.49 | Lukstr | yeah :( |
| 15:18.02 | Lukstr | I like the useless flag |
| 15:22.58 | Lukstr | is there currently anyway to specify window position in windowed mode? |
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| 15:30.20 | TheRedBaron | blast007: VC9 builds libcurl - but with has the same error I had before. VC8 does not build libcurl. |
| 15:31.03 | TheRedBaron | I"m mirroing the vc++ directory settings so that VC9 is identical to VC8ee. I think vc9 is grabbing some extra libs |
| 15:31.48 | TheRedBaron | either way - libcurl is what's failing. If i use the libcurl.dll binary that ships with 2.0.10 I can run bz 2.99.x just fine |
| 15:31.58 | blast007 | Lukstr: [-geometry widthxheight[{+|-}x{+|-}y]] |
| 15:32.08 | Lukstr | sexy thanks |
| 15:32.20 | blast007 | and in trunk, the -geometry paramater was merged with -window |
| 15:32.54 | JeffM | comments on the "special" application |
| 15:33.05 | Lukstr | ? |
| 15:33.48 | blast007 | hah |
| 15:33.57 | blast007 | VB6 skills? nice |
| 15:34.09 | JeffM | all he did was list the books he's read |
| 15:34.20 | blast007 | haha |
| 15:34.26 | Lukstr | DTRemenak brought up a good point in a comment on my app; if I was to implement libBZW, where in the tree should it go? |
| 15:34.50 | Lukstr | Do you currently have any fairly globular libs? |
| 15:34.57 | JeffM | nope |
| 15:35.00 | TheRedBaron | blast007: scratch that |
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| 15:37.59 | Skater | menotume |
| 15:38.09 | Skater | Can you please add me to the DUB Pillbox spawn list? |
| 15:38.43 | blast007 | JeffM: if I wanting to make a console application in VC that I can easily port later to linux, do I want the "Win32 Console Project" or the "Console Application (.NET)" ? |
| 15:39.03 | JeffM | win32 |
| 15:39.10 | blast007 | k |
| 15:39.17 | JeffM | then replace _tmain with main |
| 15:40.39 | Lukstr | _tmain? bizarre microsoft. |
| 15:40.54 | TheRedBaron | libcurl built succesfully on vc9. Bzflag ran successfully. No more: "The Procedure Entry Point WSAPoll could not be located in the dynamic Link Library WS2_32.dll" |
| 15:41.09 | JeffM | TheRedBaron, what did you have to change? |
| 15:41.18 | TheRedBaron | JeffM: You can't use the SDK's that ship with vc9 |
| 15:41.29 | JeffM | the platform one? |
| 15:41.30 | TheRedBaron | at least not on x64. which has alot of the win2k3 kernel |
| 15:41.38 | TheRedBaron | JeffM: correct |
| 15:41.41 | JeffM | fun |
| 15:41.51 | TheRedBaron | get the windows 2003 r2 SDK |
| 15:42.02 | TheRedBaron | i'm testing the same config on vc8ee |
| 15:42.25 | TheRedBaron | because I ran into the exact same error using vc8 |
| 15:43.07 | JeffM | we should probably see if we can update our curl sorces |
| 15:43.07 | TheRedBaron | yup - same config works for vc8 |
| 15:43.28 | TheRedBaron | JeffM: But the problem was with libcurl - not liking the SDKs |
| 15:43.52 | JeffM | curl may be calling things that are deprecated |
| 15:43.58 | TheRedBaron | with the bad sdks, I could build everything but libcurl. if I copied the libcurl dll binary that ships with 2.0.10 - bzflag worked just fine |
| 15:43.59 | JeffM | or something |
| 15:44.37 | TheRedBaron | JeffM: i'd be interested in testing the MSVC/vc9 that you yanked from svn. |
| 15:44.47 | JeffM | TheRedBaron, the projects wern't good |
| 15:44.50 | JeffM | they had not been updated |
| 15:44.54 | TheRedBaron | k |
| 15:45.00 | JeffM | so they had other problems |
| 15:45.11 | TheRedBaron | k |
| 15:45.17 | JeffM | since 9 works by just upgrading the 8's I'd rather just keep the 8s |
| 15:45.30 | TheRedBaron | works for me. |
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| 15:48.18 | TheRedBaron | JeffM: You probably don't have to mangle the VC++ directories under XP 32bit. or need the windows 2003 R2 SDK |
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| 15:49.03 | JeffM | the bitness of the OS should not matter |
| 15:49.11 | JeffM | I run 64 bit OS at work just fine |
| 15:49.41 | TheRedBaron | JeffM: its not just the bitness |
| 15:49.55 | TheRedBaron | xp x64 doesn't just use the xp kernel with a 64-bit extension |
| 15:50.06 | JeffM | I know |
| 15:50.17 | JeffM | uses WoW |
| 15:51.09 | TheRedBaron | yes - but its kernel is similar to win2k3 |
| 15:51.14 | JeffM | yes |
| 15:51.46 | JeffM | the error you are getting means that the link libs that the platform SDK used, had methods that were not instealled in the ones you have on the system |
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| 15:51.55 | JeffM | I'm guessing the plat SDK in VC9 is simply too new |
| 15:52.09 | JeffM | and the ones installed in your OS did not have that |
| 15:52.18 | JeffM | so by going to an older SDK you got what you needed |
| 15:52.33 | TheRedBaron | ah, ok. |
| 15:52.41 | JeffM | link libs that matched your existing runnning OS runtime libs |
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| 16:06.12 | Lukstr | hey JeffM, how do static libraries work in Windows? same way as in Unices? |
| 16:06.23 | JeffM | similar |
| 16:06.33 | JeffM | they are built as a .lib |
| 16:06.35 | JeffM | and you link them |
| 16:06.45 | Lukstr | hm |
| 16:07.44 | Lukstr | Okay, so regardless if it's a shared or static library, it'll have to be built differently for windows |
| 16:08.25 | JeffM | not really |
| 16:08.31 | JeffM | it won't use the make files |
| 16:08.47 | JeffM | it would have a project like bzflag does |
| 16:09.08 | JeffM | all the existing libs build as static |
| 16:09.18 | JeffM | common.lib 3d.lib etc.. |
| 16:09.30 | Lukstr | hm |
| 16:10.05 | Lukstr | I'm making a thing on the wiki (on my user page) to discuss this, as I can't really say with confidence what's *best* for bzflag |
| 16:10.21 | Lukstr | I require the input of you guys |
| 16:10.49 | JeffM | then make a real page for it as a design doc |
| 16:10.53 | JeffM | not on your user page |
| 16:11.22 | Lukstr | hm ok |
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| 16:12.04 | JeffM | the actual lib packaging would not be the hard part |
| 16:12.08 | JeffM | as that's just build stuff |
| 16:12.11 | Lukstr | no I know |
| 16:12.18 | JeffM | how were you going to pack it on linux? |
| 16:12.27 | JeffM | just a lib? |
| 16:12.31 | Lukstr | probably |
| 16:12.39 | JeffM | then you do the same on windows |
| 16:12.48 | JeffM | the only issue on windows is if you want to do it as a dynamic lib |
| 16:12.49 | Lukstr | I'm trying to figure out if it'd be in bzflag or on its own, however |
| 16:12.54 | Lukstr | JeffM: duly noted |
| 16:13.06 | JeffM | I'd probalby go in bz |
| 16:13.21 | JeffM | then we'd ether move the tools that use it in the tools dir under bz |
| 16:13.25 | JeffM | or just make them need bz |
| 16:13.27 | JeffM | that's bikeshed |
| 16:14.00 | Lukstr | what do you mean by "in bz" ? |
| 16:14.19 | JeffM | the bzflag source tree |
| 16:14.34 | JeffM | so you 'd have /src/bzw/ |
| 16:14.48 | JeffM | that way bz builds out of the box with one tarball |
| 16:14.50 | Lukstr | so /trunk/bzflag/src/bzw |
| 16:14.52 | Lukstr | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:14.54 | JeffM | yeah |
| 16:14.59 | Lukstr | ah, ok |
| 16:15.13 | JeffM | then the tools that may use it /trunk/bzworkbenc/ whatever would be dependent on bz |
| 16:15.29 | JeffM | or we move workbench into /bzflag/tools/bzworkbench |
| 16:16.14 | Lukstr | yeah I like the second idea |
| 16:16.31 | Lukstr | however, isn't workbench/etc. then checked out with bzflag? |
| 16:16.40 | Lukstr | i.e. for a build |
| 16:16.49 | JeffM | sure |
| 16:16.50 | JeffM | so? |
| 16:17.01 | Lukstr | well, bzwb has a ton of dependencies |
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| 16:17.14 | JeffM | dosn't mean it has to be built by default |
| 16:17.16 | JeffM | with bz |
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| 16:17.17 | Lukstr | ah ok |
| 16:17.28 | Lukstr | that sounds good then |
| 16:17.45 | JeffM | we don't build the other tools we have in there right now ether |
| 16:18.02 | Lukstr | alright |
| 16:18.21 | DTRemenak | has a mild preference for building it as a shared lib, personally |
| 16:18.29 | JeffM | well you can do that |
| 16:18.34 | Lukstr | DTRemenak: that was my original perference too |
| 16:18.35 | JeffM | but you'll have to take care of a couple things |
| 16:18.37 | DTRemenak | but it's not a huge deal...just something I wanted to make sure you thought about it before you started :) |
| 16:18.40 | Lukstr | I'm writing up a small page, |
| 16:18.42 | JeffM | if you do a shared lib thenit's a DLL |
| 16:18.46 | JeffM | and I'm cool with that |
| 16:18.55 | Lukstr | DTRemenak: it's an excellent point, I'm glad you made me think about it :P |
| 16:19.03 | JeffM | just don't expose templates or memory new/delete across the DLL boundry |
| 16:19.30 | DTRemenak | mm, good point |
| 16:19.31 | Lukstr | But if it's a shared lib would I put it in /trunk/libbzw or /bzlibs or somesuch, or in bz? |
| 16:20.16 | JeffM | where it goes in the tree is of little importance |
| 16:20.16 | *** join/#bzflag Paul_PL (n=pawelbl6@chello087206115169.chello.pl) |
| 16:20.26 | JeffM | it can always be moved |
| 16:20.36 | DTRemenak | I dunno. another thing to think about is whether or not upgrading the lib without upgrading each calling app makes sense. if not, maybe static is better. |
| 16:20.49 | DTRemenak | but part of that depends on the interface |
| 16:20.52 | JeffM | start in the bzflag tree and then if we have to we move it |
| 16:21.09 | blast007 | hello Paul_PL |
| 16:22.42 | Lukstr | Well, regardless I'm making a wiki page :P |
| 16:22.58 | DTRemenak | yay for wikis! |
| 16:24.49 | Paul_PL | hi |
| 16:25.02 | Paul_PL | thanks for the comments :) |
| 16:25.18 | Lukstr | hello |
| 16:27.49 | JeffM | thinks DTRemenak should go to work so he gets enouhg time ;) |
| 16:28.01 | JeffM | tho the odds of playing tonight are not high |
| 16:28.04 | JeffM | is at home |
| 16:28.21 | blast007 | Paul_PL: did you get a chance to put it into our wiki? |
| 16:29.15 | Paul_PL | i have just read the mail a few minutes ago, i am going to post it to the wiki later today |
| 16:29.50 | blast007 | ok |
| 16:30.10 | Paul_PL | I want to add Jeffs suggestions, some new ideas of mine |
| 16:30.24 | Lukstr | regarding my app, should I expand it some more? |
| 16:31.33 | DTRemenak | I am fairly satisfied with the app itself, though you may want to find out what the other mentors think |
| 16:31.46 | Lukstr | okie |
| 16:31.58 | Lukstr | apparently they fixed it so I can edit the app whenever instead of only after a comment |
| 16:32.03 | Lukstr | so I may be more liberal with edits now |
| 16:32.09 | DTRemenak | ah, cool |
| 16:33.17 | Paul_PL | I will put the link on some community forums to get feedback from regular players |
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| 16:34.33 | Lukstr | well, that would explain the lag |
| 16:35.02 | blast007 | solar flares? |
| 16:35.06 | brlcad | there's nothing that prevents us from building all/any of our libs as shared libs at the moment |
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| 16:35.50 | brlcad | shared are just intentionally disabled at the moment because people didn't like the double-compilation it implies (PIC) |
| 16:36.19 | brlcad | and the opposite for plugins |
| 16:37.18 | JBdiGriz | Which people would mind the double-compilation? It seems that it would only affect the developers, and it makes our lives easier. |
| 16:37.39 | JBdiGriz | If we need to do things quickly, we can change our own source trees. |
| 16:38.11 | Lukstr | hurries to finish the wiki page |
| 16:38.19 | JeffM | if you intend that dynamic paradigm to windows, the current code would not work as is |
| 16:38.39 | JBdiGriz | It's always about windows, isn't it? ;) |
| 16:38.48 | JeffM | just letting you know |
| 16:39.11 | JeffM | they are a signifigant portion of our userbase |
| 16:39.22 | JBdiGriz | "signifigant"? |
| 16:39.32 | JeffM | close to 1/5 |
| 16:39.34 | JeffM | 1/2 |
| 16:39.38 | JeffM | is sick, sorry |
| 16:40.12 | JeffM | I do wish that it didn't have the limitations it does, but it does |
| 16:40.26 | brlcad | other than needing to add __declspec(export)/__declspec(import) wrappers in the header, what's the problem? |
| 16:40.41 | JBdiGriz | Doesn't windows use a different build system? We could just enable it on the "less limited" systems (e.g. Irix) |
| 16:40.42 | JeffM | brlcad, can't have templates or SDL passed across |
| 16:40.57 | JeffM | and can't new/delete across |
| 16:40.58 | brlcad | so? we're talking about a new library aren't we? |
| 16:41.11 | JeffM | brlcad, well you were talkinga bout exisitng libs IIRC |
| 16:41.27 | JeffM | or do I RIC? |
| 16:41.30 | brlcad | this specifically related to libbzw I thought |
| 16:41.33 | JeffM | ah |
| 16:41.39 | JeffM | then yeah it'd have to just be writen smart |
| 16:41.42 | JBdiGriz | I'm willing to start with the new library, and extend to existing libs as another project. |
| 16:41.43 | JeffM | then it'd be fine |
| 16:41.47 | DTRemenak | templates are fine in general, it's STL containers that brea |
| 16:41.52 | DTRemenak | k |
| 16:42.06 | JeffM | yeah templates are ok as long as the template is also exported IIRC |
| 16:42.15 | DTRemenak | different versions of VC use incompatible containers |
| 16:42.20 | DTRemenak | it's rather annoying really |
| 16:42.32 | JeffM | well the old one suck :) |
| 16:42.52 | JeffM | and VC will complain if you include a class that isn't exported in a class that is |
| 16:43.35 | Lukstr | silly VC |
| 16:44.26 | JeffM | is what it is |
| 16:45.07 | JBdiGriz | refrains from more windows comments until JeffM is feeling better. Go get some tea/soup. |
| 16:45.26 | JeffM | bag on it all you want, it ain't gonna change it |
| 16:45.54 | JBdiGriz | It has already changed it. It's gotten a lot better since '95. |
| 16:45.56 | spldart | Your sick too :( |
| 16:46.30 | JeffM | JBdiGriz, somehow I doubt that was as a direct result of people bagging on it on this channel ;) |
| 16:46.48 | Lukstr | you never know... |
| 16:46.50 | JBdiGriz | I never limit my comments to just this channel. :D |
| 16:47.15 | Lukstr | I've convinced MS devs to change things before :P |
| 16:47.50 | JeffM | well let me know when you get them to break binary support and fix it ;) |
| 16:48.03 | Lukstr | hehe |
| 16:48.16 | Lukstr | is still envious of the starbucks MS has in their building... |
| 16:49.11 | JBdiGriz | goes to get the chickens and start the "change binary support" dance. |
| 16:49.34 | Lukstr | as a rule, the less microsoft * is involved the better everyone is off. |
| 16:49.52 | Lukstr | WinCE, doubly so |
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| 16:51.04 | JeffM | are you done? |
| 16:51.22 | Lukstr | I'm not hating on you :P |
| 16:51.26 | Lukstr | but never, I'm never done. |
| 16:51.59 | Lukstr | I'll try to refrain, however. |
| 16:52.06 | JeffM | it's more of a "get on with our lives" kinda thing ;) |
| 16:52.18 | Lukstr | hehe |
| 16:52.34 | JBdiGriz | I thought this was your life. ;) |
| 16:52.48 | JeffM | I deal with it and move on ;) |
| 16:53.04 | JeffM | did the same for classic mac |
| 16:53.18 | Lukstr | JeffM: for .dll's, do I have to do any added fanciness in the code? |
| 16:53.23 | JBdiGriz | That one took a lot of chickens. |
| 16:53.24 | JeffM | just call MoreMasters() a couple time smore and get on wiht it |
| 16:53.38 | JeffM | Lukstr, techincakly yes, but I'd take care of that for you |
| 16:53.56 | JeffM | just try to keep your API as clean as possible |
| 16:54.05 | Lukstr | Ooookiedokie |
| 16:54.21 | Lukstr | I recall something of a DLLMain routine? |
| 16:54.29 | JeffM | and keep any memory you allocate in the lib, freed in the lib, and allocated outside the lib freed outside the lib |
| 16:54.38 | JeffM | we won't need a dll main |
| 16:54.39 | Lukstr | JeffM: Always, good sir |
| 16:54.41 | JeffM | just some exports |
| 16:55.17 | Lukstr | that's what that __declspec crap is, right? |
| 16:55.21 | JeffM | yeah |
| 16:55.33 | JeffM | basicly on windows only the things you export are exported |
| 16:55.42 | JeffM | unlike GCC where it does everything |
| 16:55.48 | JeffM | has it's pros and cons |
| 16:55.51 | Lukstr | hm |
| 16:56.21 | Lukstr | but the app can only use what's in the API anyways, no? |
| 16:56.22 | JeffM | I would guess you are going to wrap it all up in a class? |
| 16:56.40 | JeffM | Lukstr, on nix, no you can actualy link to anything in the other module |
| 16:56.50 | JeffM | that can lead to nasty name conflicts |
| 16:57.00 | Lukstr | Hm. |
| 16:57.04 | Lukstr | I'd like to see an example of that |
| 16:57.14 | JeffM | from a plugin |
| 16:57.20 | JeffM | you can call any function in bzfs |
| 16:57.24 | JeffM | on unix |
| 16:57.28 | Lukstr | hm |
| 16:57.35 | JeffM | as long as you hace the header ;) |
| 16:57.43 | Lukstr | right |
| 16:57.45 | JeffM | we had people calling our text utils |
| 16:57.47 | JeffM | direclty |
| 16:57.58 | JeffM | and that dosn't work on windows cus they are not exported |
| 16:58.09 | Lukstr | well if you don't have the header |
| 16:58.13 | Lukstr | you can't, right? |
| 16:58.23 | JeffM | Lukstr, the header is in our source tree |
| 16:58.26 | JeffM | they just included it |
| 16:58.36 | Lukstr | right |
| 16:58.41 | Lukstr | I understand that, however |
| 16:58.57 | Lukstr | in a library, how can the access anything other than what's in the header you provide |
| 16:59.14 | JeffM | Lukstr, they have full source for the lib |
| 16:59.23 | JeffM | they just include another header from the libs sources |
| 16:59.26 | Lukstr | yeah but you're not using the lib then |
| 16:59.32 | Lukstr | ah okay, well that's not really a problem then |
| 16:59.42 | Lukstr | if the user wants to screw around like that, it's not something I will try and prevent |
| 16:59.49 | JeffM | Lukstr, OR define a local defiition for it ;) |
| 16:59.52 | JeffM | even by accedent |
| 17:00.03 | Lukstr | how though? |
| 17:00.16 | JeffM | the def could be in the plugin |
| 17:00.30 | JeffM | the compiler just needs the prototype |
| 17:00.39 | JeffM | then the linker can get it from the shared lib |
| 17:00.48 | Lukstr | hm |
| 17:00.55 | Lukstr | I want to try this |
| 17:01.25 | JeffM | so if you had a functon that was the same signature on both places, the linker would complain that you had multiply defined implementations |
| 17:01.35 | JeffM | since at runtime it just jumples athem all together |
| 17:01.48 | Lukstr | yeah, but the names shouldn't be the same |
| 17:02.04 | JeffM | should are are, are not always the same ;) |
| 17:02.08 | JeffM | people make mistakes |
| 17:02.19 | Lukstr | I can't think of a phrase right now |
| 17:02.20 | JeffM | make a method called GetShotCount |
| 17:02.33 | JeffM | that could be the same in both |
| 17:02.39 | JeffM | if one did not know the other had it |
| 17:03.02 | Lukstr | but shouldn't the compiler change the name of it? |
| 17:03.22 | Lukstr | so the symbols won't match? |
| 17:03.28 | JeffM | not for dynamics |
| 17:03.41 | JeffM | the symbols arn't done at compile time, but at load time |
| 17:03.50 | JeffM | it's a dynmaic symbol load |
| 17:04.05 | JeffM | dynamic linking changes a lot of things |
| 17:04.34 | Lukstr | what is it called when the compiler changes the fn names again? |
| 17:04.35 | JeffM | you can't have each difrent compiler scramble up the links for dynamic libs each time, or then one app would not be able to find the symbs in a lib it loads |
| 17:04.40 | JeffM | mangaling |
| 17:04.44 | Lukstr | right, thanks |
| 17:05.24 | JeffM | I'm not 100% on the specifics of what GCC does, but I've seen the results of the problems |
| 17:05.36 | Lukstr | I'm interested in testing that out |
| 17:05.43 | Lukstr | and doing it right now |
| 17:05.49 | JeffM | we had plugins that defined functions that had name confilfts with stuff in bzfs and had errors |
| 17:06.11 | JeffM | we also had people "cheat" and grab functions from outside the API |
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| 17:08.36 | Lukstr | I can imagine |
| 17:08.56 | JeffM | on windows they can't cheat and don'tt realy have the conflicts |
| 17:09.00 | Lukstr | right |
| 17:09.07 | JeffM | since the only thing exported is stuff you specificly export |
| 17:09.13 | Lukstr | which makes sense |
| 17:09.15 | JeffM | so in that case it's a little more safe |
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| 18:15.08 | Lukstr | JeffM: Wow that's awesome |
| 18:15.15 | Lukstr | I just did what you described |
| 18:15.24 | Lukstr | I never considered that |
| 18:16.46 | Lukstr | regardless, I don't typically choose names like "EasyToGuessFunction" for internal-only method names in ADTs, :P |
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| 19:35.19 | pacman87 | anyone know why my framerate in linux is about 2/3 of my framerate in windows? |
| 19:35.35 | Winny | crappy drivers? |
| 19:35.37 | mibocote | video driver? |
| 19:35.45 | JeffM | drivers of crap |
| 19:35.45 | pacman87 | i got the nvidia driver |
| 19:37.02 | pacman87 | any suggestions? |
| 19:39.04 | JeffM | install windows |
| 19:39.12 | pacman87 | play in vmware? |
| 19:39.36 | pacman87 | doesnt' solve the underlying driver issues |
| 19:41.44 | mibocote | do you have poor frame rates on other games? |
| 19:42.30 | pacman87 | glxgears gives ~450 FPS |
| 19:42.46 | JeffM | bzflag does things diferently then gears |
| 19:43.10 | pacman87 | what should i test against? |
| 19:44.53 | blast007 | Halo 2 |
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| 19:45.23 | JeffM | are the drivers under linux the same version as those under windows? |
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| 19:47.50 | mibocote | did you run `$sudo nvidia-glx-config enable`? |
| 19:48.27 | pacman87 | the linux drivers are more recent |
| 19:49.05 | pacman87 | it's a pretty old gfx card (6200 pci), and the latest win drivers had bugs last time i checked |
| 19:49.36 | pacman87 | and my halo2 framerate is probably ~20-30 fps in winXP |
| 19:49.48 | pacman87 | 800x600 |
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| 19:51.00 | pacman87 | mibocote: bash: nvidia-glx-config: command not found |
| 19:51.03 | JeffM | same settings in BZ? |
| 19:51.21 | pacman87 | yeah, same settings |
| 19:53.08 | pacman87 | my xorg.conf is using "nvidia" as the driver for "Device" |
| 19:53.20 | JeffM | then all the things it "could be" are things that you can't effect |
| 19:53.29 | JeffM | so ya just gotta deal with it |
| 19:53.47 | Erroneous | running at the same resolution? running fullscreen in both, or windowed? |
| 19:54.31 | pacman87 | both fullscreen, 1280x960 in winXP, 1152x864 in linux |
| 19:55.25 | Erroneous | dunno then. turbocache card? |
| 19:55.42 | Erroneous | oh, pci, n/m |
| 19:55.50 | pacman87 | yeah, it's old |
| 19:56.48 | JeffM | why not the same reses in both? |
| 19:56.56 | Erroneous | what is your framerate? |
| 19:57.25 | pacman87 | winXP it's 72 Hz (vsync), linux it's ~30 |
| 19:57.55 | Erroneous | that's less than 2/3 :) |
| 19:57.57 | pacman87 | JeffM: i can't convince linux to let me run 1280x960 at 72Hz (forces me to 60 Hz) |
| 19:58.05 | pacman87 | i was being generous |
| 19:58.13 | pacman87 | occasionally it spikes to 38 |
| 19:58.19 | blast007 | pacman87: I was joking about Halo 2, because it wasn't a linux game ;) |
| 19:58.37 | mibocote | doesn't even run on xp |
| 19:58.42 | pacman87 | yeah it does |
| 19:58.47 | mibocote | not by default |
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| 20:16.21 | pacman87 | on another note, how would one set up linux to compile custom plugins? |
| 20:16.40 | Constitution | trunk or branch? |
| 20:16.51 | pacman87 | both eventually, but branch first |
| 20:16.55 | Constitution | in trunk, --enable-plugins, in branch, --enable-shared |
| 20:17.10 | pacman87 | ah, i was trying to do --enable-plugins with branch ;) |
| 20:17.31 | pacman87 | but doesn't that just build the included plugins? |
| 20:17.33 | TheRedBaron | yea - same here |
| 20:17.47 | TheRedBaron | nope --enable-plugins does nothing in branch |
| 20:18.01 | Constitution | look at newplug.sh in the plugins dir |
| 20:18.03 | pacman87 | was wondering why /listplugins had no effect |
| 20:18.46 | pacman87 | i already have the plugin working in windows |
| 20:19.09 | Lukstr | nom nom pizza |
| 20:19.24 | pacman87 | it tells me to edit plugins/Makefile.am and configure.ac |
| 20:19.36 | pacman87 | and when i do, make breaks |
| 20:20.03 | blast007 | did you run autogen.sh after you changed that? |
| 20:20.31 | pacman87 | blast007: *autogen.sh breaks, not make |
| 20:20.41 | blast007 | define "breaks" |
| 20:20.53 | pacman87 | hang on, i started over |
| 20:20.57 | pacman87 | let me recreate the error |
| 20:21.02 | blast007 | ok |
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| 20:22.07 | blast007 | pacman87: and did you edit the configure.ac inside of the root of the source, or inside the plugins/ directory? |
| 20:22.32 | Constitution | blast007: this is branch, I think |
| 20:22.41 | blast007 | oh |
| 20:22.55 | blast007 | ah yeah, he mentioned branch, nvm |
| 20:23.27 | pacman87 | there is no congfigure.ac in the plugins dir |
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| 20:23.53 | blast007 | right, I was thinking of trunk |
| 20:25.18 | pacman87 | well, i must've done something wrong the first |
| 20:25.24 | pacman87 | time, as i can't recreate the error |
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| 20:37.23 | Marzipan | any1 want to play lasermania ? |
| 20:38.30 | Constitution | I'd rather play LuminescentOrder |
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| 20:43.49 | spamrams | any developers here? |
| 20:43.53 | spamrams | SOS |
| 20:44.01 | Winny | there are many developers here |
| 20:44.09 | a_meteorite | maybe we can help you? |
| 20:44.18 | spamrams | yeah.. sure |
| 20:44.35 | spamrams | Look I am working on Bzflags as a aprt of my grad project |
| 20:44.48 | spamrams | and it requires that I bring in some realism to the game |
| 20:44.52 | AAA_awright | Cool |
| 20:45.15 | spamrams | So to begin with we are planning to bring a camera feed into the system |
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| 20:45.22 | F687s | Well, this game isn't meant to be "realistic." |
| 20:45.43 | spamrams | yeah true.. its not like we are trying to make it more feature enhanced |
| 20:46.07 | spamrams | Just that we are using this game as a benchmark for r research |
| 20:46.50 | spamrams | So I have this cam which gives me ppm files |
| 20:46.56 | spamrams | err. images |
| 20:46.57 | a_meteorite | a camera... interesting, I can tell you now, the BZFlag codebase is "weird". Integrating something like that is going to take a lot of reworking. |
| 20:47.14 | blast007 | well, there is an observer mode in the game already |
| 20:47.27 | spamrams | yeah I have looked into the code for some time and I guess I have a vague idea where to start |
| 20:47.58 | spamrams | And I am stuck up ath this phase |
| 20:48.09 | blast007 | guess I'm not totally sure what you mean by "camera" |
| 20:48.14 | Lukstr | blast007: yeah, I think you could probably manipulate the observer |
| 20:48.16 | blast007 | just a fixed point for obsevation? |
| 20:48.24 | spamrams | a physical camera |
| 20:48.29 | spamrams | which sends in images |
| 20:48.33 | spamrams | streams |
| 20:48.35 | blast007 | oh |
| 20:48.39 | Lukstr | so screen caps from an observer? |
| 20:48.49 | blast007 | Lukstr: nope, I was unclear what they meant |
| 20:48.53 | spamrams | yeah and develop it to a point where it can affect the game play |
| 20:49.26 | F687s | Ooh... |
| 20:49.31 | F687s | In what way? |
| 20:49.44 | spamrams | say if an image is a red blob |
| 20:50.05 | spamrams | based on some state of a game , if the image captured is a red blob, I get more ammunition |
| 20:50.19 | spamrams | this is a stupid example |
| 20:50.33 | spamrams | but things like that |
| 20:50.41 | Lukstr | oh |
| 20:50.45 | Lukstr | so play the game with a camera? |
| 20:50.47 | spamrams | say each person shows an image |
| 20:50.49 | Lukstr | or have the camera affect game state? |
| 20:50.56 | JeffM | camera feed? |
| 20:50.58 | F687s | Like, in a FPS-style map, if the camera captures a red tank in a blue-team area, it would send out an alarm? |
| 20:51.10 | spamrams | and the server arbitrates and chooses one.. that particular image's owner becaomse inivincible for some time |
| 20:51.26 | spamrams | yeah |
| 20:51.36 | spamrams | i think F87 is confused |
| 20:51.43 | spamrams | F687s |
| 20:51.49 | blast007 | F687s: no, the camera would be in the real world |
| 20:51.49 | spamrams | I am talking of "actual" camera |
| 20:52.02 | JeffM | where does the feed of the camera go? |
| 20:52.04 | spamrams | yeah , jeffM |
| 20:52.08 | JeffM | to a display? or is it processed? |
| 20:52.18 | spamrams | both |
| 20:52.27 | JeffM | what is it used for? |
| 20:52.28 | spamrams | JeffM - bith |
| 20:52.42 | spamrams | to bring in more realism to the game |
| 20:52.45 | JeffM | and what is it taking picturesof? |
| 20:52.59 | spamrams | JeffM, it can be like this |
| 20:53.13 | spamrams | each player gets an image |
| 20:53.16 | spamrams | and streams to server |
| 20:53.22 | spamrams | server chooses one image |
| 20:53.34 | spamrams | and the owner becomes invincible for some time |
| 20:53.40 | JeffM | an image from where? |
| 20:53.46 | JeffM | does each player have a camera? |
| 20:53.49 | spamrams | yeah |
| 20:53.56 | spamrams | each player has a camera |
| 20:54.05 | JeffM | and what they have like cards with images they show to the camera? |
| 20:54.34 | spamrams | Yeah it is just a stupid example.. we can do more exciting things with this |
| 20:54.48 | JeffM | you are one of those eye of judgement players arn't you? ;) |
| 20:54.49 | spamrams | say if we have a pda to which the game is ported in some later edition |
| 20:54.57 | Lukstr | haha |
| 20:55.03 | spamrams | :) |
| 20:55.10 | JeffM | I get where you are going |
| 20:55.14 | JeffM | how is this fun? |
| 20:55.51 | JeffM | cus I don't see it adding anything close to realism, since I know of no wars that are won by taking pictures of a stop sign on a cell phone |
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| 20:56.00 | spamrams | yeah it can be fun when say the server says if u get an image of this , u will be invincible or so |
| 20:56.02 | spamrams | and ppl arbitly run around |
| 20:56.06 | JeffM | no, tha'ts called anoying |
| 20:56.19 | JeffM | it's an interesting achedemic studdy in vission processing |
| 20:56.21 | JeffM | that is for sure |
| 20:56.24 | Lukstr | you must mean a word other than realism |
| 20:56.35 | spamrams | yeah precise;y, the reason for doing this |
| 20:56.37 | JeffM | but trying to tack it into a tank game as being fun.. that's a huge strech |
| 20:56.47 | JeffM | what did you need a developer for? |
| 20:56.51 | Lukstr | I agree, bzflag seems like a weird choice |
| 20:57.12 | spamrams | yeah I now need to have load textures on to say tanks dynamically |
| 20:57.27 | spamrams | I mean I need to load textures to tanks dynamically |
| 20:57.31 | JeffM | we arn't set up for that |
| 20:57.35 | JeffM | not yet |
| 20:57.51 | JeffM | you'd have to destory and recreatae the sceene and render nodes |
| 20:57.53 | spamrams | So how does this thing work now? |
| 20:58.05 | spamrams | yeah I am working on the tankscenerender.xx file |
| 20:58.20 | JeffM | the texture ID is picked by the sceenenode when it's created |
| 20:58.29 | JeffM | and it burns it into the openGL state |
| 20:58.39 | JeffM | then it's called each frame by the rendernode(s) |
| 20:58.41 | spamrams | U mean before the game loads? |
| 20:58.49 | JeffM | as each tank is added to the sceene |
| 20:59.17 | JeffM | the sceennode uses the tanks team to pick a texture name, then that is maped to an ID |
| 20:59.22 | spamrams | okay.. |
| 20:59.31 | JeffM | if the texture was loaded, it's cached ID is returned |
| 20:59.39 | JeffM | if it was not, then it's loaded and turned into an ID |
| 21:00.00 | JeffM | then for each frame the rendernodes execute the glState and that rebinds the texture |
| 21:00.04 | spamrams | for tanks may I know where is this done? |
| 21:00.07 | Lukstr | what you might be able to do (JeffM slap me if I'm crazy) |
| 21:00.22 | Lukstr | is have each player on a team, so each tank is a different colour or texture |
| 21:00.32 | spamrams | okay |
| 21:00.34 | JeffM | Lukstr, it's simpler then that |
| 21:00.40 | Lukstr | then manipulate the texture resource and somehow readd the tank |
| 21:00.41 | JeffM | and we ahve a fixed 4 team setup |
| 21:00.58 | JeffM | the constructor dosn't have to use the team color to ge the texture |
| 21:01.05 | JeffM | you can mod it to do anything you want |
| 21:01.19 | JeffM | there should be a call to GetID in the texture manger |
| 21:01.24 | Lukstr | JeffM: So how many tanks are there in total? |
| 21:01.24 | JeffM | thats where the name is turned into the ID |
| 21:01.28 | Lukstr | 1 per team? |
| 21:01.50 | JeffM | Lukstr, we only allow for 5 teams that have vissable tanks |
| 21:01.55 | JeffM | sorry 6 |
| 21:01.58 | JeffM | and a rabbit |
| 21:01.58 | spamrams | hey I am slightly lost here. |
| 21:02.20 | spamrams | u said that the texturemanager loads the texture to tanks right> |
| 21:02.22 | Lukstr | Okay, so you're just redrawing the tanks right (referencing a node) |
| 21:02.28 | spamrams | does it happen at every simulation loop? |
| 21:02.36 | spamrams | or once when it gets added to the scene? |
| 21:02.38 | JeffM | Lukstr, there is a sceene node for each tank |
| 21:02.56 | JeffM | spamrams, the texture is l oaded as needed |
| 21:02.58 | JeffM | then cahced |
| 21:03.08 | JeffM | so it'll be loaded on it's first draw |
| 21:03.13 | spamrams | So cant we cahnge it there |
| 21:03.13 | JeffM | let me find where we set it |
| 21:03.17 | spamrams | to get difeerent nodes? |
| 21:03.29 | JeffM | yes, that's what I'm saying |
| 21:03.36 | JeffM | when the node is created you can change the logic |
| 21:03.42 | JeffM | so that it uses whatever texture you want |
| 21:03.46 | JeffM | instead of the team color |
| 21:04.04 | JeffM | but when the texture changes, you will have to destroy the sceennode and make a new one |
| 21:04.15 | spamrams | can u tell me where does that happen? i was looking around the renderpart funciton in tankscene |
| 21:04.21 | Lukstr | JeffM: sorry to off topic a bit, but you don't just bind a model + texture ONCE for each team and then just re-reference the same node? |
| 21:04.23 | JeffM | I am looking, just chill for a sec |
| 21:04.28 | spamrams | and loaded my texture before a call to render was actually made |
| 21:04.36 | JeffM | Lukstr, no |
| 21:04.42 | spamrams | Thanks man! |
| 21:04.44 | JeffM | tanks can have variations in scale |
| 21:04.51 | JeffM | there are flags that affect them |
| 21:05.03 | JeffM | the actual tank geometry IS put into display lists |
| 21:05.05 | Lukstr | I'm sure it makes sense, I just assumed otherwise |
| 21:05.07 | Lukstr | right |
| 21:05.11 | Lukstr | that I expect |
| 21:05.12 | Lukstr | anyways |
| 21:05.14 | JeffM | but the textures are not |
| 21:05.17 | Lukstr | dinner so, bbl |
| 21:05.26 | JeffM | each tank actualy uses 2 textures in trunk |
| 21:05.30 | JeffM | base and treads |
| 21:05.45 | spamrams | Okay |
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| 21:06.05 | JeffM | I'm bringin up the sources, one sec |
| 21:06.39 | spamrams | And I plan not to load from the texture manager but build my texture there itself |
| 21:06.54 | JeffM | that is harder |
| 21:07.02 | JeffM | you'll have to modify the texture manger |
| 21:07.15 | pacman87 | error trying to compile custom plugin in linux (branch): http://pastebin.bzflag.bz/m39622c4c |
| 21:07.17 | JeffM | basicly instead of calling the getID, you'd generate a texgture |
| 21:07.21 | spamrams | No instead of making a call to texture manager to get my texture |
| 21:07.23 | JeffM | and get an ID out of that |
| 21:07.32 | spamrams | I can as well create a texture there itself right? |
| 21:07.32 | JeffM | spamrams, that is a bad idea |
| 21:07.41 | spamrams | cos of the simulation time? |
| 21:07.55 | JeffM | cus when GL gets invalidated your texture goes byebye |
| 21:08.08 | JeffM | also texture mangaer manages the cache state and you'll screw up other textures |
| 21:08.15 | JeffM | TM allows you to define a texture |
| 21:08.23 | JeffM | so you can put custom textures into the manager |
| 21:08.42 | spamrams | But I wld be geting images , so each image wld be a texture |
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| 21:08.59 | spamrams | And there will be infinite textures |
| 21:09.17 | JeffM | yeah you ditch the old ones when you are done |
| 21:09.21 | JeffM | do they change every frame? |
| 21:09.45 | spamrams | No..I dun want that to hppen cos i dunno whether I can load a texture for every frame |
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| 21:10.01 | spamrams | It might cos it to jitter and hang I think |
| 21:10.08 | JeffM | yeah it would |
| 21:10.15 | JeffM | so yeah you'd just fire your textures into the manager |
| 21:10.30 | JeffM | otherwise you run the risk of confliciting wiht our texture state |
| 21:10.35 | spamrams | So what I had planned in mind was to creata new thread there which wld dump the data for the texture into a texture varaible |
| 21:10.48 | spamrams | and the simulation thread just using this texture |
| 21:10.49 | JeffM | you can still do that |
| 21:10.59 | JeffM | you just dump into to the manager |
| 21:11.04 | spamrams | Ok |
| 21:11.08 | JeffM | you can go and asign a new textureID to each tank |
| 21:11.20 | JeffM | then in your thread go and just tell the manager to update the image stored for that ID |
| 21:11.52 | JeffM | you'll need to modify texture manger |
| 21:11.58 | spamrams | okay |
| 21:12.02 | JeffM | make a new method that works like newTexture |
| 21:12.06 | JeffM | but is called modify texture |
| 21:12.06 | spamrams | the texturemanager.cxx file? |
| 21:12.10 | spamrams | okay |
| 21:12.14 | JeffM | that takes an ID and new image data |
| 21:12.20 | spamrams | and change the texture data to that ID? |
| 21:12.30 | JeffM | then you just unbind the old boundID and rebind to the new data |
| 21:12.31 | JeffM | yes |
| 21:12.51 | spamrams | I din understand what do u mean by unbind the old boundID? |
| 21:13.03 | spamrams | ohhh |
| 21:13.05 | JeffM | do you know how textures work in openGL? |
| 21:13.13 | spamrams | glbindtexture() |
| 21:13.16 | JeffM | yes |
| 21:13.26 | JeffM | each manager ID is associated wiith a GL bind id |
| 21:13.39 | spamrams | Ohh okay |
| 21:14.01 | spamrams | And can u tell me where the the texture binding happens when I render? |
| 21:14.19 | JeffM | you'd do it in the new texture manager method you add |
| 21:14.34 | JeffM | in the tank, you want to take a look at void TankSceneNode::setTexture(const int texture) |
| 21:14.38 | JeffM | and see where that is called from |
| 21:14.39 | spamrams | No, i was asking where should I call it? |
| 21:14.45 | JeffM | cus that is what you want to overide |
| 21:15.32 | JeffM | and you want to have the ID from newTexture passed in there, instead of getTextureID |
| 21:15.54 | spamrams | and who calls settexture method? |
| 21:16.00 | spamrams | is it being called everytime? |
| 21:16.11 | JeffM | set a breakpoint and see |
| 21:16.19 | JeffM | that's what debugers are for :) |
| 21:16.26 | JeffM | I don't know off the top of my head |
| 21:16.34 | JeffM | but it's should be trivial to research |
| 21:16.38 | spamrams | I have no clue how to use a debugger in a multi layer game |
| 21:16.45 | JeffM | huh? |
| 21:16.50 | JeffM | multilayer? |
| 21:16.56 | spamrams | player |
| 21:17.03 | spamrams | forggive me if I sound stupid |
| 21:17.04 | JeffM | why does that matter? |
| 21:17.08 | JeffM | you j ust set a breakpoint |
| 21:17.13 | spamrams | Okat |
| 21:17.14 | JeffM | and see when it gets called |
| 21:17.26 | JeffM | what compiler do you use? |
| 21:17.27 | spamrams | But wldnt the program get stalled? |
| 21:17.35 | JeffM | yea it will |
| 21:17.37 | JeffM | but who cares |
| 21:17.40 | spamrams | I use kdevelop environment |
| 21:17.53 | *** join/#bzflag tupone (n=atupone@pdpc/supporter/active/Tupone) |
| 21:17.53 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v tupone] by ChanServ |
| 21:17.53 | JeffM | it as a debuger, so just set a breakpoint |
| 21:18.18 | JeffM | debuger good |
| 21:18.21 | spamrams | okies |
| 21:18.22 | JeffM | debuger your friend ;) |
| 21:18.27 | JeffM | don't fear the debuger |
| 21:18.34 | JeffM | it will save your soul |
| 21:18.55 | spamrams | I am printing out statemtns and finding it and its getting very messy |
| 21:19.11 | JeffM | umm yeah |
| 21:19.18 | JeffM | thats why debugers were invented |
| 21:19.24 | JeffM | callstack |
| 21:19.25 | JeffM | good |
| 21:19.32 | spamrams | Now u r killin me :) |
| 21:19.49 | pacman87 | re: my error, i fixed it |
| 21:20.43 | JeffM | ya won't get very far in large projects if you don't use the debuger :) |
| 21:22.10 | Constitution | bzbb admins, L4m3r's callsign is misspelled on the FAQ page as l34mr: http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=890 |
| 21:22.50 | Constitution | *as l43mr |
| 21:23.29 | JeffM | well he is prety lame ;) |
| 21:23.51 | JeffM | fixed |
| 21:24.05 | Constitution | but is he laem? ;) sounds worse |
| 21:24.08 | Constitution | thanks |
| 21:24.21 | JeffM | laem is he lamest form of lame |
| 21:25.57 | spamrams | And jeffM I need to do this then - add a modify texure method in texture manager , unbind the texture, and have a thread which calls thsi function |
| 21:26.10 | spamrams | and dumps new data to it? |
| 21:26.17 | JeffM | yep |
| 21:26.40 | JeffM | and modify the tanks to not use team colors, but use new texure IDs |
| 21:26.54 | JeffM | and then somehow get those IDs over to your thread and associate them with the tank |
| 21:27.05 | JeffM | so you know what ID to update for what player |
| 21:27.25 | JeffM | how much of this design work are you suposed to be doing yourself? |
| 21:27.39 | spamrams | Ohh ... and where are the colors set ? |
| 21:27.46 | spamrams | setTeamColor? |
| 21:27.53 | JeffM | in the material |
| 21:28.02 | JeffM | in genreal the color of the material is white |
| 21:28.10 | JeffM | the actual team colors are in the texture |
| 21:28.24 | JeffM | unless texturing is off |
| 21:28.32 | JeffM | for your use, if texture is off, you are screwed |
| 21:28.44 | spamrams | void TankSceneNode::TankRenderNode::setupPartColor(TankPart part) |
| 21:28.44 | spamrams | { |
| 21:28.45 | spamrams | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:28.45 | spamrams | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:28.46 | spamrams | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:28.46 | spamrams | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:28.47 | spamrams | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:28.48 | JeffM | dude |
| 21:28.49 | spamrams | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:28.50 | JeffM | pastebin |
| 21:28.51 | spamrams | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:28.53 | spamrams | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:28.55 | spamrams | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:28.57 | spamrams | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:28.59 | spamrams | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:29.01 | spamrams | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:29.03 | spamrams | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:29.08 | spamrams | Ohh sorry :) |
| 21:29.14 | spamrams | U mean this function? |
| 21:29.24 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o JeffM2501] by ChanServ |
| 21:29.35 | JeffM2501 | use http://pastebin.bzflag.bz |
| 21:29.53 | JeffM2501 | the part color is the low level function |
| 21:29.57 | JeffM2501 | there are higher level ones |
| 21:30.07 | JeffM2501 | I don't think you want to modify the color at all |
| 21:30.08 | pacman87 | --enable-shared doesn't enable plugins in branch |
| 21:30.58 | spamrams | yeah |
| 21:31.07 | spamrams | but I still need to turn off them right? |
| 21:31.11 | JeffM2501 | no |
| 21:31.16 | JeffM2501 | they will be white |
| 21:31.19 | JeffM2501 | you want them white |
| 21:31.22 | JeffM2501 | leave them alone |
| 21:31.29 | JeffM2501 | your texture will have the color in it |
| 21:32.13 | spamrams | "and modify the tanks to not use team colors, but use new texure IDs" - wat were u meaning by this? |
| 21:32.21 | pacman87 | and tab-completion isnt working |
| 21:32.24 | JeffM2501 | not use the team colored textures |
| 21:32.37 | JeffM2501 | red.png, blue.png, etc.. |
| 21:32.56 | spamrams | is it being done in the settexture method? |
| 21:32.59 | spamrams | now? |
| 21:33.15 | JeffM2501 | spamrams, in the method that calls setTexture |
| 21:34.02 | TheRedBaron | pacman87: by branch you mean 2.0.10 ? |
| 21:34.05 | spamrams | In that methid instead of sending the actual texture, I need to send mine |
| 21:34.14 | pacman87 | 2.0.11 |
| 21:34.25 | pacman87 | svn current |
| 21:34.26 | JeffM2501 | spamrams, you'd send in the ID for a NEW texture from the manager, |
| 21:34.33 | TheRedBaron | dunno |
| 21:34.45 | JeffM2501 | pacman87, tab complente in game? or in your OS? |
| 21:34.50 | pacman87 | in game |
| 21:35.04 | TheRedBaron | they may have changed it from 2.0.10 - 2.0.11. but in .10 its --enable-shared |
| 21:35.19 | spamrams | yeah I understood now :) |
| 21:35.26 | TheRedBaron | will brb |
| 21:35.27 | spamrams | Thanks a lot for the help :) |
| 21:35.34 | JeffM2501 | gool luck |
| 21:35.43 | spamrams | will code test and getback to u |
| 21:35.45 | spamrams | thanks |
| 21:36.02 | JeffM2501 | pacman87, yeah --enable-shared in branch |
| 21:36.08 | JeffM2501 | and automatgic in trunk |
| 21:36.13 | JeffM2501 | from what they tell me |
| 21:36.50 | pacman87 | ./configure --program-suffix=2 --enable-shared |
| 21:37.46 | Constitution | might want to --enable-optimized, although that might be on by default |
| 21:38.31 | *** join/#bzflag pacman87 (i=127@resnet-45-192.dorm.utexas.edu) |
| 21:38.52 | pacman87 | sorry, client accidently closed |
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| 22:09.18 | *** join/#bzflag dysinteligent (i=marcin@resident.t4.ds.pwr.wroc.pl) |
| 22:10.19 | Constitution | JeffM2501: on the mentor blog, "excellent" is misspelled as "excelent" in the last sentence. |
| 22:10.31 | Constitution | sorry to be the spelling police today |
| 22:10.37 | JeffM2501 | ya vol mein heeir |
| 22:11.37 | JeffM2501 | fixed |
| 22:11.47 | Constitution | cool |
| 22:17.40 | Winny | too.. much... chili |
| 22:17.59 | Winny | explodes |
| 22:19.47 | Constitution | yay, another iPhone SDK update... here goes another 2GB download |
| 22:19.55 | Winny | hehe |
| 22:20.00 | Constitution | oh pardon me, only 1.4GB |
| 22:20.15 | Winny | do they not know the meaning of the word "patch"? |
| 22:20.24 | Winny | it sounds like they're updating the whole program |
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| 22:22.29 | AAA_awright | What objectClass would bzflag users be? Not posixAccount... |
| 22:23.58 | JeffM2501 | ? |
| 22:24.24 | AAA_awright | LDAP backend |
| 22:25.12 | JeffM2501 | ahh |
| 22:25.28 | JeffM2501 | what are the choices? |
| 22:27.07 | blast007 | what are 'users' typically under? |
| 22:27.25 | JeffM2501 | resists a 'your mom' joke |
| 22:28.40 | blast007 | heh... |
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| 22:29.48 | jorgenpt | rofl |
| 22:30.23 | jorgenpt | /me resists a joke about 'subject' is a great way to make a joke when you can't think of a something that'd fit the context well. ;-) |
| 22:30.34 | Erroneous | wonders what attributes JeffM2501 rolled to resist the joke |
| 22:30.41 | JeffM2501 | con |
| 22:31.22 | AAA_awright | blast007 JeffM2501: Unix users are usually posixAccount, that trpy requires a home directory, shell, other things, and omits email |
| 22:31.38 | JeffM2501 | AAA_awright, then what other choices do we have? |
| 22:31.53 | mibocote | you can make your own objectClass |
| 22:31.57 | AAA_awright | A custom schema, which I am not too familiar with |
| 22:32.04 | JeffM2501 | sounds ike we need one |
| 22:32.53 | AAA_awright | It also brings up, we need to track users by BZID, but it doesn't seem like that is too easy with LDAP/phpBB |
| 22:33.53 | L4m3r | how so? |
| 22:33.55 | JeffM2501 | does ldap have a guid per user? |
| 22:34.31 | L4m3r | we can always use a bogus BZID |
| 22:34.38 | AAA_awright | I believe it is a 22-bit UUID |
| 22:34.43 | JeffM2501 | ok |
| 22:34.47 | L4m3r | clients and servers won't talk directly to LDAP anyway |
| 22:34.55 | JeffM2501 | then the bzids we ahve n ow fit into that 22bit UUID ;) |
| 22:35.06 | AAA_awright | I think that is for indexing though |
| 22:35.06 | JeffM2501 | oh universaly |
| 22:35.12 | JeffM2501 | thre needs to be an ID |
| 22:35.15 | JeffM2501 | if we have to map it, sure |
| 22:35.20 | JeffM2501 | if ldap can do it, great |
| 22:35.58 | AAA_awright | Basically we need to figure out how to log in with one attribute and track users by a second |
| 22:36.20 | JeffM2501 | maps |
| 22:37.14 | blast007 | AAA_awright: doesn't sound any different that our current implementation |
| 22:37.22 | blast007 | than* |
| 22:37.46 | AAA_awright | No, problem is I don't know how phpBB does it over LDAP, never mind MediaWiki |
| 22:38.34 | blast007 | k |
| 22:38.55 | blast007 | mediawiki probably just uses the username |
| 22:38.59 | dysinteligent | Hi, I've got a question about gsoc (not sure if it's a good place) - who is going to be a mentor of BZWorkBench project? |
| 22:41.16 | Constitution | dysinteligent: I doubt it has been determined for certain; however, there are plenty of people here who are knowledgeable enough about it to answer questions if you have some |
| 22:41.43 | Erroneous | mentors are not assigned to projects until after the application process |
| 22:41.59 | dysinteligent | this is a project I was applying last year, but I haven't been choosen |
| 22:42.11 | brlcad | why not posixAccount? |
| 22:42.20 | Erroneous | we have a more fluid mentor pool than many other orgs; a lot of our mentors have knowledge and abilities in multiple areas |
| 22:42.32 | dysinteligent | I would like to ask for some advice |
| 22:42.43 | brlcad | and I would like some pizza |
| 22:42.55 | dysinteligent | or maybe what did I do mostly wrong |
| 22:43.12 | Erroneous | brlcad: that sounds really good right now actually... :) |
| 22:43.18 | Constitution | did you receive a response to your application last year? |
| 22:43.23 | dysinteligent | brlcad: why don't you order? |
| 22:43.32 | brlcad | i'm thinking about it |
| 22:43.35 | brlcad | maybe stop on the way home |
| 22:43.39 | dysinteligent | yes, it was standard gsoc response |
| 22:43.46 | TheRedBaron | saves pizza for mondays |
| 22:44.06 | brlcad | dysinteligent: we talk about gsoc projects openly, it's not 1-1 in private |
| 22:44.07 | dysinteligent | telling me that some people was better than me |
| 22:44.14 | brlcad | so if you want to talk about BZWB, just talk about it ;) |
| 22:44.29 | dysinteligent | brlcad: ok |
| 22:44.57 | spldart | Test bzfs_conf.html http://70.240.251.10:8080/bzfs_conf.html Cloaked shot and offa has been added... See any problems? |
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| 22:46.42 | dysinteligent | last year I applied to it, because I like writing editors |
| 22:46.46 | Erroneous | dysinteligent: did you stop by this channel last year? |
| 22:47.42 | dysinteligent | I've included some screen shots of my 2d/3d file viewer/editor to the application |
| 22:48.20 | dysinteligent | Erroneous: I'm first time on this channel |
| 22:49.41 | Erroneous | well, you're moving the right direction then :) the applicant we selected for that project made a number of preliminary design decisions and essentially specced out the entire project in the app itself, and he was here talking to us about it, and proving he could communicate effectively. |
| 22:50.06 | Erroneous | you'll also want to familiarize yourself with the project as it stands now |
| 22:50.25 | dysinteligent | I've noticed that Jude Nelson's project gui is very poor |
| 22:50.42 | dysinteligent | I have to see his code responsible for object loading |
| 22:50.45 | Erroneous | the 3d interaction in particular is terrible :) |
| 22:50.50 | L4m3r | UI needs work, yes |
| 22:50.51 | dysinteligent | and manipulation |
| 22:51.19 | dysinteligent | I'm also interested why you need two people for this project? |
| 22:52.07 | Erroneous | there are two different projects involved. one is human interaction, the other is finishing the backend work (meshes and advanced 2.0 objects) |
| 22:52.35 | Erroneous | we're willing to consider applicants for either or both |
| 22:52.58 | dysinteligent | I don't think it's too much for one coder to do gui and file support upgrade for 3 months |
| 22:55.22 | dysinteligent | and it would be even easier to work for one person, so he could synchronize new futures with gui (f.e. dialog boxes) |
| 22:55.29 | dysinteligent | sorry for me english |
| 22:56.03 | Erroneous | feel free to write your application that way then. outline exactly which features you plan to implement. |
| 22:56.21 | dysinteligent | ok, wish me luck :) |
| 22:56.26 | Erroneous | good luck! :) |
| 22:56.34 | dysinteligent | :] |
| 22:56.55 | Erroneous | and feel free to stick around here too, and get a feel for the project :) |
| 22:57.11 | Constitution | as far as cheat prevention, I understand that most of the vulnerabilities lie with the fact that the client manages too much of its own state... is this a good summary, and/or are their other vulnerabilities that are protocol-related that I'm not seeing? |
| 22:57.57 | Erroneous | at this time state issues are those we would like to focus on. there are potentially other problems, but as of yet nobody is exploiting them :) |
| 22:58.07 | Constitution | heh |
| 22:58.20 | Constitution | yeah, everything I can think of ties back into state in some way or another |
| 22:58.38 | Erroneous | yeah, it really does |
| 22:58.55 | dysinteligent | ok, I'll try tomorrow to write application, now I've to learn for japanese test |
| 22:58.56 | Constitution | whether it be tank state (position, movement), shot state, etc. |
| 22:59.03 | dysinteligent | CUl8r |
| 22:59.11 | Constitution | cya |
| 22:59.12 | Erroneous | has heard that japanese is really hard :) |
| 22:59.23 | Erroneous | so good luck on that test too! :) |
| 22:59.33 | L4m3r | I think the issue it more about the server's lack of a real state than the client :P |
| 22:59.48 | Erroneous | L4m3r: two sides of the same coin ;) |
| 22:59.48 | L4m3r | s/it/is/ |
| 22:59.48 | dysinteligent | it's not high level of jap |
| 23:00.11 | Erroneous | the client manages too much, because the server is not capable of managing enough |
| 23:00.35 | dysinteligent | but when you hear that they have more than 3 verbs to say 'wear' depending on wearing direction :/ |
| 23:00.43 | Erroneous | heh :) |
| 23:01.22 | Constitution | so with lag and all, tank movement isn't perfectly consistent... how much of that can really be moved server-side? |
| 23:01.40 | Constitution | right now the client sends position updates AND raw acceleration, rotation, etc., right? |
| 23:02.02 | Erroneous | correct |
| 23:02.16 | Erroneous | we get "snapshots" of what the tank is doing |
| 23:02.55 | Erroneous | ideally we would not do that, we'd instead get what the tank *wanted to do* |
| 23:03.00 | JeffM2501 | Constitution, we can make a better guess |
| 23:03.30 | *** join/#bzflag Alesis-Novik (n=alesis@78-60-80-229.ip.zebra.lt) |
| 23:03.50 | Constitution | right... but of course you don't want too large of a descrepancy to develop between where the server thinks the client is (and where it's telling all the other clients that tank is) and where the client thinks its own tank is |
| 23:03.52 | JeffM2501 | we can know that when he's jumping, gravity will afect him, not just the vector he was going on |
| 23:04.07 | JeffM2501 | Constitution, that is why the client does it's own DR too |
| 23:04.22 | JeffM2501 | if it has the same logic and detects a discrepancy, it sends an update |
| 23:04.25 | Erroneous | Constitution: right, so the client needs to be able to intelligently handle corrections to its own state by the server |
| 23:04.40 | *** join/#bzflag JBdiGriz (n=JBdiGriz@76.212.212.149) |
| 23:04.40 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o JBdiGriz] by ChanServ |
| 23:04.45 | Constitution | what's DR? |
| 23:04.55 | JeffM2501 | dead deconing |
| 23:04.57 | JeffM2501 | reconing |
| 23:05.03 | JeffM2501 | the prediction based on last state |
| 23:05.03 | JBdiGriz | Dead Reckoning |
| 23:05.04 | Constitution | ah, thanks |
| 23:05.33 | Erroneous | making it transparent to the user (i.e. avoiding rubberbanding and related problems) is one of the "hard parts" with having authoritative state be at the remote end |
| 23:06.07 | Constitution | Erroneous: so we would rather have a client jittering around on its own screen (based on updates/corrections from the server) than having a client jitter around on everyone else's screen? |
| 23:06.33 | JeffM2501 | needs of the many |
| 23:06.37 | Constitution | or is the server "correcting" the client in some other sense |
| 23:06.38 | Erroneous | we'd rather have neither :) |
| 23:06.51 | JeffM2501 | yeah optimaly you'd have it be cool on both |
| 23:06.56 | spldart | Ok.. I'll assume bzfs_conf.html is done. Added offa to worlds and the CS flag too.. I have also added CS to bzflag.6.in but had a question. Should I add offa to bzflag.6.in as well? |
| 23:06.57 | L4m3r | ideally there would be enough of a fudge to not require frequent corrections |
| 23:06.59 | JBdiGriz | Constitution: The interesting part of that is that a jittery client would be more of a problem to the user who has the jitter. |
| 23:07.08 | JeffM2501 | but if you had to pick, pick the ONE laggy person to correct,not everone else |
| 23:07.14 | L4m3r | so, your client would only get really jittery if you were cheating :) |
| 23:07.22 | Constitution | hmmm |
| 23:07.23 | JBdiGriz | A client with less jitter should appear fairly constant to everyone. |
| 23:07.39 | JBdiGriz | L4m3r: or if you had a problem with your network. |
| 23:07.40 | spldart | AS it stands the bzflag man list '3 main styles of play' and doesn't list offa |
| 23:07.40 | JeffM2501 | only punish the laggy ;) |
| 23:07.56 | JeffM2501 | spldart, fix it |
| 23:08.01 | JeffM2501 | :) |
| 23:08.02 | L4m3r | JBdiGriz: maybe if jitter got bad enough |
| 23:08.03 | Erroneous | doesn't like offa anyway |
| 23:08.10 | JBdiGriz | which is why a number of the people who are farther from the servers aren't as happy with the idea. ;) |
| 23:08.24 | Constitution | lag != jitter |
| 23:08.31 | spldart | Ok.. I'll assume that means 4 main styles of play hehe |
| 23:08.31 | L4m3r | we could increase the allowed deviation with lag |
| 23:08.34 | JeffM2501 | yes and no Constitution |
| 23:08.36 | Erroneous | we don't need to be training people to shoot tanks that are their own color :| |
| 23:08.38 | JeffM2501 | jitter is change in lag |
| 23:09.10 | JeffM2501 | the synced clock in theroy should help fix jitter |
| 23:09.39 | L4m3r | that too |
| 23:09.56 | L4m3r | for lag, it would make more sense to correct the server's state than the client's |
| 23:09.57 | JeffM2501 | it seems to work as expected on linux servers |
| 23:10.05 | Constitution | right, so a client with higher lag would at least be more consistent as far as state goes than a client with high jitter, no? |
| 23:10.10 | JeffM2501 | L4m3r, that does happen |
| 23:10.36 | JeffM2501 | Constitution, higher lag means longer to get a real update, and that means the prediciton is off for longer |
| 23:10.37 | Constitution | and if collision management is done by the server, high lag will have less of an effect on the other players' ability to shoot that tank |
| 23:10.52 | Constitution | hm |
| 23:11.08 | Erroneous | lag is easier to compensate for than jitter |
| 23:11.10 | JeffM2501 | if you had a lag of 500, it would take 1/2 a second for y our update to getout |
| 23:11.23 | Erroneous | but yes, it will still effect gameplay |
| 23:11.29 | *** join/#bzflag queenannsrvnge9 (n=4859b4d8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/zeebrothers.net/x-8492104c6cfeffdc) |
| 23:12.13 | JeffM2501 | if you had 10ms lag with +-5ms jitter, your updates still get tehre within 15ms |
| 23:12.13 | JeffM2501 | so it's not that bad |
| 23:12.14 | Constitution | JeffM2501: so it would be *behind* (hence "laggy"), but still *consistent*, right? |
| 23:12.14 | JeffM2501 | and even tho you have jitter,your clock probably didn't drift, so your timestamps are ok |
| 23:12.15 | JeffM2501 | the clock takes out the need for consistency in lag |
| 23:12.29 | JeffM2501 | all it needs is for your lag to be symetrical ;) |
| 23:12.43 | JeffM2501 | cus both clocks, on the server and client are still running at the same rate |
| 23:13.00 | L4m3r | with a synced clock it should be possible for the server to tell what the client can do |
| 23:13.02 | Constitution | so high lag generates problems with the new lag compensation, not with consistency in the timing of updates? |
| 23:13.03 | JeffM2501 | so if the packet takes 10ms or 100ms, we can still back plot it to the correct place |
| 23:13.14 | L4m3r | so even with deviation caused by lag |
| 23:13.16 | JeffM2501 | Constitution, high lag adds latency in updates |
| 23:13.22 | JeffM2501 | by def |
| 23:13.27 | Constitution | right |
| 23:13.46 | JeffM2501 | no amount of lag compensation can look into the future |
| 23:14.07 | JeffM2501 | the clock based lag comp just does what it can to give everyone as close to a constistent state as they can |
| 23:14.13 | JeffM2501 | regardless of the transport time. |
| 23:14.24 | Constitution | okay |
| 23:14.32 | Erroneous | right. it's more important that everyone is seeing the same thing, than that what they are seeing is necessarily correct |
| 23:14.43 | JeffM2501 | better DR( such as applying gravity ) can help keep the predicted state much more accurate |
| 23:14.47 | Lukstr | hehe |
| 23:15.23 | Constitution | so in 3.0, with the lag compensation, tanks with high lag will jump around more, whereas in 2.0 players with high lag (and low jitter) had relatively smooth movement, they just weren't really where you saw them? |
| 23:15.29 | JeffM2501 | so for the server, when it gets an update, it will check the input and make sure it's plausable,if it is, it'll use that state |
| 23:15.38 | JeffM2501 | Constitution, yes |
| 23:15.58 | JeffM2501 | so in 3.0 when you see a player, THAT is where they are on there screen |
| 23:15.58 | Constitution | ok |
| 23:16.07 | JeffM2501 | or at least closer then 2.0 |
| 23:16.09 | JBdiGriz | By George, I think he's got it! |
| 23:16.25 | Constitution | heh |
| 23:16.35 | JeffM2501 | thats why I fear that many long time players will dislike 3.0 at first |
| 23:16.42 | TheRedBaron | what?! |
| 23:16.43 | Lukstr | probably |
| 23:16.58 | TheRedBaron | dusts off his flame-thrower |
| 23:16.58 | JeffM2501 | they have trained themselves to add addtitional lead based on lag |
| 23:17.00 | JBdiGriz | Especially the ones who have been using lag instead of ability. |
| 23:17.07 | JeffM2501 | where in 3.0 we have done that for them |
| 23:17.11 | JeffM2501 | exactly |
| 23:17.13 | Winny | TheRedBaron: jeff removed radar completely ;) |
| 23:17.23 | TheRedBaron | buys tickets to cali |
| 23:17.27 | Winny | hehe |
| 23:17.36 | JBdiGriz | What ?!?!?! Are you planning on making this a 3D game? |
| 23:17.51 | awilcox | TheRedBaron: before you assassinate Jeff, can I ask him a question first? :P |
| 23:17.57 | TheRedBaron | no! |
| 23:18.02 | awilcox | ok... |
| 23:18.05 | JeffM2501 | sup? |
| 23:18.08 | TheRedBaron | blasphemer - he must not be spoken to |
| 23:18.15 | TheRedBaron | he must be shunned |
| 23:18.27 | JeffM2501 | TheRedBaron, all I did was compensate for lag |
| 23:18.41 | Constitution | so how do raw position updates versus accelleration/rotation/jumping state updates fit into this lag compensation? |
| 23:18.48 | awilcox | JeffM2501: I was just wondering if you knew any resources or Web sites that have information about writing functional software requirements |
| 23:18.54 | Winny | JeffM2501: You mean we'll have to aim.. properly!? |
| 23:18.55 | JeffM2501 | Constitution, the accell is still sent |
| 23:18.58 | JBdiGriz | I'm looking at who has the technical ability to shun/mute in this channel, and deciding that this can't go well for one party. |
| 23:19.09 | JeffM2501 | it just uses the time stamp as an "anchor" for the predition |
| 23:19.25 | JeffM2501 | awilcox, google :) |
| 23:19.46 | awilcox | JeffM2501: I googled quite a lot to no avail, that's why I asked ;) |
| 23:19.55 | JeffM2501 | Constitution, in 2.0 we assumed that when we got the packet was when the data was valid |
| 23:19.58 | awilcox | but ok, I will google more |
| 23:20.00 | JeffM2501 | so we'd predict from there |
| 23:20.14 | Constitution | ah |
| 23:20.16 | JeffM2501 | in 3.0 we know how long it's been since that postion was valid |
| 23:20.21 | *** join/#bzflag Dessy2 (n=Dessy@88-134-204-43-dynip.superkabel.de) |
| 23:20.27 | JeffM2501 | so we add that into the time delta for prediction |
| 23:20.36 | Lukstr | 3.0 sounds goooood |
| 23:20.52 | JeffM2501 | so when we get the packet we know they arn't where the data in the packet says, but N seconds ahead |
| 23:21.00 | JeffM2501 | where N = now - timestamp |
| 23:21.09 | JeffM2501 | thats why it's not affected by jitter |
| 23:21.11 | JBdiGriz | Let's just hope it's N milliseconds ahead. |
| 23:21.20 | Constitution | but if the client changed directions suddenly, and we've predicted him moving forward, and we receive another update packet, he will now be like twice the movement distance in the other direction, right? |
| 23:21.20 | awilcox | ooh! so I have a chance in 3.0 |
| 23:21.23 | JeffM2501 | JBdiGriz, it's all computed in seconds ;) |
| 23:21.38 | JeffM2501 | Constitution, yeah nothing we can do about that |
| 23:21.45 | JeffM2501 | the prediction was wong, it can and will happen |
| 23:21.50 | JeffM2501 | since we can't send a message in 0 time |
| 23:22.00 | JeffM2501 | and have no way of knowing what way he will turn |
| 23:22.00 | Constitution | okay, so that's our trade-off |
| 23:22.10 | JeffM2501 | well that's the nature of networking |
| 23:22.25 | JeffM2501 | all systems have to deal with that case |
| 23:22.29 | JBdiGriz | We can smooth out the motion instead of jumping him around, but that makes his display more jumpy. |
| 23:22.31 | Constitution | what should the server do about it? go ahead and jump him back and update the other clients? |
| 23:22.35 | JeffM2501 | yes that is one way |
| 23:22.35 | Erroneous | laggy players will be way more obvious than before, but you will be able to actually shoot them |
| 23:22.47 | awilcox | Constitution: all predictions can fail. look at branch predictions on NetBurst, or even hard disk cache misses. this feature seems to be quite a step in the right direction, though |
| 23:23.04 | JeffM2501 | Constitution, right now if the update they send us is valid for something they COULD have done |
| 23:23.08 | JeffM2501 | we go and accept it |
| 23:23.17 | JeffM2501 | and just snap everyone to the new place |
| 23:23.23 | Constitution | awilcox: I understand that the prediction is wrong, my question is what we do about it... make him suffer or the other clients suffer |
| 23:23.28 | JeffM2501 | that leaves the state invalid for the least amount of time |
| 23:23.41 | JeffM2501 | smothing leaves the state wrong for more time, but may look better |
| 23:23.44 | Lukstr | Constitution: everyone suffers equally :) |
| 23:23.56 | JBdiGriz | We can also make the client send out more updates for the users who move around a lot, and less for the users who are more consistent. |
| 23:24.06 | JeffM2501 | JBdiGriz, we do that now |
| 23:24.14 | JeffM2501 | the client does a prediction too |
| 23:24.18 | JeffM2501 | same logic as the server |
| 23:24.24 | JeffM2501 | if it sees that it's going to be off, it sends and update |
| 23:24.53 | Erroneous | Constitution: right now, everyone suffers, just like 2.0, but they can see that they are suffering...in other words, the tank may jump out of the way of the bullet, but the bullet will not pass through the tank without it blowing up (more or less) |
| 23:25.00 | Constitution | okay, well, we were talking earlier about the server "correcting" the laggy client, and now I'm hearing that the server accepts the new position and corrects the other clients... which is the desirable one? |
| 23:25.27 | JeffM2501 | Constitution, well it will corect an invalid move, |
| 23:25.31 | Constitution | Erroneous: not sure what you mean |
| 23:25.50 | JeffM2501 | like if you say "hey yeah, I'm on the other side of the world now", we regject it and slam him back |
| 23:25.50 | Constitution | okay, I see |
| 23:26.03 | JeffM2501 | but if the move is valid for his lag time, we trust it |
| 23:26.04 | Constitution | but the correction is not for lag |
| 23:26.05 | Erroneous | Constitution: right now, if you shoot at a laggy player that just changed direction, your bullet will pass through his tank, but he will NOT die, because his tank is not actually htere |
| 23:26.12 | JeffM2501 | Constitution, there is compensation for lag |
| 23:26.12 | Erroneous | s/right now/in 2.0/ |
| 23:26.13 | awilcox | I'm thinking out loud. It may have already been thought of. But what if we were to make this a "distributed" protocol, where all the clients connect to each other, thereby reducing overall lag (because the server only keeps a list of clients, it will be client-to-client lag and if one client is laggy the rest don't get lagged down as well). |
| 23:26.14 | JBdiGriz | That's a good question, and relates to desirable gameplay. I would prefer that it corrects the laggy client as it makes the person with the issues suffer more. |
| 23:26.14 | JeffM2501 | not correction |
| 23:26.29 | Constitution | Erroneous: right |
| 23:26.33 | Constitution | got that |
| 23:26.39 | Erroneous | in 3.0, if you shoot at a laggy player that just changed direction, you will see his tank update to the correct position, and your bullet will miss |
| 23:26.42 | JeffM2501 | JBdiGriz, there is no way to "corect" for lag, all you can do is compensate |
| 23:26.54 | Erroneous | you still miss, but what you see is the same as what your score reflects |
| 23:26.56 | Constitution | awilcox: it's been considered, but would result in much higher bandwidth requirements for clients |
| 23:27.09 | Constitution | Erroneous: oh |
| 23:27.26 | Erroneous | likewise in 2.0, if you shoot at a laggy player that is driving in a straight line, you will miss |
| 23:27.39 | Erroneous | in 3.0, if you shoot at a laggy player that is driving in a straight line, you will hit him |
| 23:27.39 | JeffM2501 | awilcox, you can never trust a client |
| 23:27.41 | Erroneous | and he will die |
| 23:27.47 | JeffM2501 | bandwith is not the issue, latency is |
| 23:28.02 | Chestal | I would like the way it works now to be documented (I suppose it isn't (except for the source itsefl ;-)) |
| 23:28.22 | Lukstr | awilcox: how would the clients compensate if they all got radically different positions from each other |
| 23:28.23 | Constitution | it is now documented at ibot.rikers.org :) |
| 23:28.25 | awilcox | JeffM2501: there's no possible way to santise the inputs? |
| 23:28.34 | Erroneous | so the best-case scenario improves significantly, and worst-case changes in appearance only. most real play situations are somewhere inbetween |
| 23:28.39 | JeffM2501 | awilcox, not with out a central server ;) |
| 23:28.48 | awilcox | ahh, I see :p |
| 23:29.13 | Constitution | so really server-side collision management has little to do with lag compensation |
| 23:29.16 | JeffM2501 | the only place you can be sure the game runs unmodified is the server, since you set that up |
| 23:29.26 | Erroneous | yes |
| 23:29.29 | Chestal | as you might know I have always been skeptical about any lag compensation which involves predictions (and I guess there aren't others). Nothing I read here has convinced me otherwise |
| 23:29.34 | L4m3r | not really |
| 23:29.34 | JeffM2501 | Constitution, no it has to do with better prediction and cheating |
| 23:29.48 | L4m3r | a buffer overrun could theoretically modify the server :P |
| 23:30.12 | JeffM2501 | L4m3r, ok barring intrusion ;) |
| 23:30.15 | L4m3r | :P |
| 23:30.23 | JeffM2501 | cus if they can do that, you have bigger problems |
| 23:30.33 | Lukstr | Chestal: being skeptical is part of the fun :P |
| 23:30.33 | awilcox | L4m3r: I would sincerely hope that any devs that work on the server would 1) know about strncpy, and 2) know to try and force an overrun to ensure it won't :P |
| 23:30.35 | Constitution | wonders if the new lag compensation will introduce a whole new set of cheats |
| 23:30.36 | Erroneous | Constitution: they're related problems from a user perspective. not so much from a dev perspective. |
| 23:30.42 | Constitution | 'cause a timestamp can be faked, presumably |
| 23:30.49 | JeffM2501 | Constitution, shoudn't |
| 23:30.57 | JeffM2501 | it will make them have to refine what they can do |
| 23:31.06 | Erroneous | the timestamp isn't trusted any more than the existing messages are |
| 23:31.19 | JeffM2501 | because we can now make more accurate queries of the states at the server |
| 23:31.23 | Erroneous | i.e. speed checks are still done in realtime, not as per the timestamp |
| 23:31.39 | JeffM2501 | and the state those checks are done on should be more accurate now |
| 23:31.44 | Lukstr | essentially you and the server are "in sync" |
| 23:31.48 | JeffM2501 | that's the gloal at least |
| 23:32.40 | Erroneous | Chestal: I'm not entirely convinced it will be a real improvement, but it's not really my area of expertise. IMHO it needs playtesting, which it hasn't gotten. |
| 23:33.01 | L4m3r | I'd rather net the client do the prediction than do it myself |
| 23:33.08 | L4m3r | s/net/let/ |
| 23:33.09 | awilcox | man...you guys get the best test cases ever :p |
| 23:33.13 | L4m3r | I suck at typing today |
| 23:33.30 | JeffM2501 | ? |
| 23:33.37 | Erroneous | ultimately the question is, does it improve things for the players? |
| 23:33.38 | Lukstr | awilcox: testing sucks no matter what :P |
| 23:33.39 | JBdiGriz | Erroneous: Exactly right. We will get more information and decide what the best gameplay will be. |
| 23:34.16 | awilcox | Lukstr: pick one. test bzflag by playing a game, or testing a sales entry system :p |
| 23:34.31 | Erroneous | but the only way to test it is to implement it, predict what it will do, see if it behaves as predicted, and analyze the play experience...so far we have parts 1 and 2 :) |
| 23:34.32 | awilcox | Lukstr: bzflag testing wouldn't suck near as bad, at least imho. |
| 23:34.41 | Lukstr | awilcox: the bright side to some testing is that it can be scripted :P |
| 23:35.07 | JBdiGriz | Now onto part 3 ... |
| 23:35.12 | Chestal | I still think a bzflag network/lag replay simulator would be a great tool for something like this |
| 23:35.13 | awilcox | a human being can think of things that the script wouldn't test, and you find more bugs testing with a human |
| 23:35.29 | JeffM2501 | Chestal, you wrote one once, update it ;) |
| 23:35.42 | Chestal | record a real game event, then replay it with varying lags and comensation algorithms, view it from the different participants |
| 23:35.45 | awilcox | I came here for a reason, I just forget now. |
| 23:35.48 | JBdiGriz | Chestal: That's a really good idea. |
| 23:35.57 | Chestal | JeffM2501: wel, not really, that was just a smaaal part of it |
| 23:36.17 | JeffM2501 | Chestal, every journy starts with a first step ;) |
| 23:36.21 | Erroneous | Chestal: you mean something like http://my.bzflag.org/w/Google_Summer_of_Code/2008#Network_Testing_and_Simulation_Environment ? :) |
| 23:36.33 | awilcox | Oh. right. I wanted to ask about requirements and I did and you don't know. ok, see ya then. |
| 23:36.59 | JBdiGriz | Why not expand that SoC entry with some of your ideas for a replay simulator. I would like to see someone working on that. |
| 23:37.06 | Erroneous | tries to rope Chestal into signing up to mentor it too |
| 23:37.40 | JBdiGriz | Shh, don't tell him until we set the hook. |
| 23:37.59 | awilcox | Hm. |
| 23:38.01 | Constitution | so it sounds like the best solution for the cheats running around is to move the collision management (which needs tank state and shot state, among other things moved as well)... anything else come to mind? |
| 23:38.02 | Chestal | Erroneous: something similar. I am not sure if a stand-alone version wouldn't be better to just test the basics. Both approaches have it pros and cons. I probably do not understand what exactly is proposed there anyway :-) |
| 23:38.21 | Winny | Constitution: hire ninjas to kill them |
| 23:38.23 | Erroneous | Chestal: well, it is a wiki...feel free to add your thoughts :) |
| 23:38.27 | awilcox | remembers the Hug The Developers campaign and hugs JeffM2501 and Erroneous before leaving. Have you hugged your developer lately? |
| 23:38.34 | JeffM2501 | Constitution, yes, bascly limit what they can do |
| 23:38.43 | JBdiGriz | So change the idea into something understandable, and more suitable to your purposes. That's what we all do. :) |
| 23:39.34 | Constitution | so we're trying to move the state stuff to the server, AND modularize it into libstate... do either of those need to happen before the other? |
| 23:40.01 | Constitution | well, obviously the client needs SOME state stuff... just shouldn't manage collisions |
| 23:40.02 | JeffM2501 | moving it would basicly modularise it ;) |
| 23:40.12 | JeffM2501 | yes they both need states |
| 23:41.23 | Constitution | okay |
| 23:41.49 | Constitution | is that a big enough project for SoC? |
| 23:41.59 | Constitution | seems like just moving some code around... |
| 23:43.03 | Erroneous | ...where "some code" is most of the game logic :) |
| 23:43.23 | JeffM2501 | a graphic engine is just 'some' math |
| 23:47.28 | Constitution | I'll take that as a "yes" :) |
| 23:49.14 | Constitution | thanks for the help |
| 23:52.02 | *** join/#bzflag Rebel (n=47360b92@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 23:52.07 | Rebel | sup |
| 23:52.27 | Rebel | ?? |
| 23:54.22 | Rebel | anyone here? |
| 23:54.33 | JeffM2501 | yes |
| 23:54.39 | Rebel | oh hi! |
| 23:54.45 | JeffM2501 | hi |
| 23:55.06 | Rebel | umm i needed help making a flag i need the preparations.if you could help? |
| 23:55.24 | JeffM2501 | what do you want the flag to do? |
| 23:55.25 | Rebel | not a flag a map my bad. |
| 23:55.30 | JeffM2501 | ahh |
| 23:55.34 | JeffM2501 | big diff ;) |
| 23:55.41 | Rebel | srry im a little loco with my little brother here |
| 23:55.45 | JeffM2501 | how do you wantto editit? |
| 23:56.12 | Rebel | by that wat do you mean? |
| 23:56.30 | JeffM2501 | text editor, blender, modeler? |
| 23:56.45 | Rebel | huh im in computer training but not this stuff. |
| 23:57.13 | JeffM2501 | you sure you want to make a map then? |
| 23:57.20 | Rebel | not to take your time up but could you take me through the steps |
| 23:57.28 | JeffM2501 | there are no steps |
| 23:57.33 | JeffM2501 | there are many ways to make a map |
| 23:57.39 | Rebel | oh...embarrasing |
| 23:57.46 | JeffM2501 | they all depend on what you are comforatable doing |
| 23:57.49 | Rebel | for me not you |
| 23:57.53 | JeffM2501 | we don't have a clean integrated editor yet |
| 23:57.55 | Rebel | ok im listening |
| 23:57.57 | JeffM2501 | it's being worked on |
| 23:58.21 | JeffM2501 | but untill then, you can make on by hand, typing in all the objects into a text editor |
| 23:58.24 | JeffM2501 | using the wiki for docs |
| 23:58.28 | Rebel | im comfortable with making a ctf map |
| 23:58.30 | JeffM2501 | or use the 3rd party blender tools |
| 23:58.45 | JeffM2501 | or use a modeler, and text editor together |
| 23:59.00 | JeffM2501 | have you read our wiki page on the subject? |
| 23:59.04 | Rebel | is their a certain limit to how big you can make the map?i mean like can you make it a certain size? |
| 23:59.15 | JeffM2501 | you can make it as a big as you want |
| 23:59.17 | Rebel | uhh a little |
| 23:59.19 | JeffM2501 | default is 800 |
| 23:59.21 | Rebel | oh ok |
