| 00:04.52 | *** join/#bzflag A_Heart_Attack (n=mattfp48@unaffiliated/aheartattack/x-000001) |
| 00:27.23 | *** join/#bzflag Legoguy (n=Legoguy@adsl-71-143-234-103.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net) |
| 00:40.17 | AAA_awright | Is anyone going to set the bzbb.bzflag.org vhost to /bb/? |
| 00:43.06 | L4m3r | AAA_awright: iirc that subdomain is a throwback to when bzflag.org and m.b.o were hosted on differen servers |
| 00:43.11 | L4m3r | different* |
| 00:43.15 | L4m3r | though I could be wrong |
| 00:43.42 | AAA_awright | I thought bzflag.org was a different serve4r |
| 00:44.18 | AAA_awright | on sf.net. my.bzflag.org being a dedicated server... or why, then, is the wiki on my.bzflag.org. |
| 00:45.26 | L4m3r | we used to have two servers |
| 00:45.45 | L4m3r | one was kindly hosted by nidhoggr (the one with bzbb and the list, iirc) |
| 00:46.07 | L4m3r | but one of his servers died, and he needed the one he was hosting us with to replace it |
| 00:46.10 | *** join/#bzflag bz93 (n=42396366@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 00:53.52 | brlcad | it's just a throwback to when that subdomain was being used, now it's simply no longer being used |
| 00:54.01 | brlcad | even though the vhost still points to m.b.o |
| 00:55.05 | brlcad | AAA_awright: and I can't think of a better reason to do it (ssh over https) :) |
| 00:55.41 | brlcad | as I really need a terminal on my iphone, and was going to write one as well until I ran across that guy's progress, now I'm happy to help :) |
| 00:56.53 | AAA_awright | Try figuring out if it can detect what browser is using it, and adjust the screen size as such? |
| 00:56.54 | donny_baker | heh... one of my guys was asking me why you would want to do something like that when I was telling him (ssh over https) |
| 00:57.04 | donny_baker | and thats all I could come up with too |
| 00:57.22 | donny_baker | "I can check my IRC on my phone easier :P |
| 00:57.46 | AAA_awright | !. Hmmmm.... |
| 00:59.37 | AAA_awright | BTW, someone bother cleaning up the ideas here: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=browse&group_id=3248&atid=353248 . " Disable jump key while chatting" has been in for years. |
| 00:59.53 | Macrosoft | hmm...where are patches submitted? |
| 01:00.09 | AAA_awright | As a feature. That one user who submitted it seemed fixed on submitting several useless ones. |
| 01:01.42 | AAA_awright | That is an interesting idea for a bzflag fork... driver/gunner co-op. |
| 01:02.21 | L4m3r | not necessarily a fork |
| 01:02.23 | brlcad | AAA_awright: in good time, it still doesn't work 100% on safari yet which is of course my priority :) |
| 01:02.28 | L4m3r | it was one of the gsoc options |
| 01:02.33 | Macrosoft | ...i still haven't submitted the patch for anonymous /say messages |
| 01:03.06 | donny_baker | Macrosoft: sourceforge project page |
| 01:03.12 | L4m3r | Macrosoft: the patch has existed forever. it's only three lines... |
| 01:03.21 | AAA_awright | I was admin'ing on a server that had anonymous /say on the global channel, but listed the user on the admin channel. |
| 01:03.23 | brlcad | donny_baker: the reason why.. many reasons.. it's the answer to why I would ever want ssh at all |
| 01:03.41 | AAA_awright | Was that the patch? |
| 01:03.58 | L4m3r | not to mention that there were no shartage of plug-ins and other workarounds |
| 01:04.01 | brlcad | that gives me access to just about everything I need, all my servers, my home machines, data, local and remote, logs, server status, irc |
| 01:04.17 | L4m3r | AAA_awright: I think Thumper did that patch |
| 01:04.42 | Macrosoft | AAA_awright: yeah, thats what it does |
| 01:04.54 | donny_baker | brlcad: yeah but putty is easy enough to carry on a stick, especially if you use the one that keeps your configs in a file |
| 01:05.15 | brlcad | donny_baker: that presumes port 22 is available/working/not blocked |
| 01:05.20 | donny_baker | the only place i lack access is on my phone |
| 01:05.23 | brlcad | and that you can plug in that stick to something |
| 01:05.26 | donny_baker | true |
| 01:05.29 | brlcad | which of course I can't on my phone |
| 01:05.30 | AAA_awright | Linky? |
| 01:05.33 | Macrosoft | L4m3r: did thumper already submit it? |
| 01:05.36 | L4m3r | or you can get a *real* smartphone that has real PuTTY support :P |
| 01:05.48 | poolio | brlcad: people got ssh running on the iPhone :) |
| 01:06.03 | brlcad | yeah, but it's a pretty big hack |
| 01:06.07 | L4m3r | Macrosoft: I have no idea |
| 01:06.10 | *** part/#bzflag LongDon (n=LongDon@host-091-097-073-075.ewe-ip-backbone.de) |
| 01:06.14 | AAA_awright | I can't find any patch with "say" |
| 01:06.29 | Macrosoft | AAA_awright: where are you looking? |
| 01:06.35 | AAA_awright | sf tracker |
| 01:06.40 | donny_baker | i like the idea of ssh over https... it does lend itself to accessability |
| 01:06.55 | L4m3r | wait a sec... does thump have commit access, brlcad? |
| 01:07.07 | donny_baker | L4m3r: yep |
| 01:07.12 | brlcad | yeah |
| 01:07.16 | L4m3r | ah, then probably not |
| 01:07.27 | Macrosoft | http://mdko.servegame.com/files/bzflag/patches |
| 01:07.27 | AAA_awright | has this been merged yet? http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1755273&group_id=3248&atid=303248 |
| 01:07.32 | L4m3r | thumper tends to just commit his patches... this is not really applicable, obviously |
| 01:07.48 | AAA_awright | I want the FrienD flag: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1621540&group_id=3248&atid=303248 |
| 01:08.45 | Macrosoft | oops, typo. http://mdk0.servegame.com/files/bzflag/patches |
| 01:09.04 | AAA_awright | Is anyone going to merge my file in ever? http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1653747&group_id=3248&atid=303248 |
| 01:09.31 | AAA_awright | blast007? |
| 01:10.24 | blast007 | I was checking it out, but there was so many changes made it was hard to determine what you changed |
| 01:10.49 | AAA_awright | I listed most all of them |
| 01:10.59 | blast007 | right, that's not what I meant |
| 01:11.05 | blast007 | I was using a merge/diff tool |
| 01:11.22 | blast007 | I'm not going to blindly apply a change |
| 01:11.24 | brlcad | the friend flag patch is one of about a dozen that could be accepted fairly easily with review |
| 01:11.43 | AAA_awright | That is why jeff said submit the file, the patch I made was t times larger then the new file. |
| 01:11.50 | AAA_awright | *about two |
| 01:12.26 | blast007 | AAA_awright: was there a reason you removed cache control headers? |
| 01:12.50 | *** join/#bzflag bryjen (n=bryjen@2002:4cb1:b40f:0:0:0:0:1) |
| 01:12.50 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v bryjen] by ChanServ |
| 01:13.14 | AAA_awright | Did I? |
| 01:13.25 | AAA_awright | Wait, weblogin.php needs to be cached? |
| 01:13.28 | Macrosoft | what's the friend patch do? |
| 01:13.37 | AAA_awright | Macrosoft: can't TK |
| 01:13.43 | Macrosoft | ahh |
| 01:13.54 | AAA_awright | think about admins saying "/flag give MajorTKER FD" |
| 01:14.07 | AAA_awright | That would be interesting. |
| 01:14.27 | Macrosoft | it's a flag? it changes server and client? |
| 01:16.04 | AAA_awright | Yah. You could probably implement it in a plug in using the Useless flag or something though. Make your bullets appear to be zoned to other teammates... |
| 01:19.01 | AAA_awright | Could someone merge this one in? http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1154378&group_id=3248&atid=303248 |
| 01:19.04 | Macrosoft | so... how do i submit a patch to sf? |
| 01:19.58 | AAA_awright | do you have an account there? |
| 01:20.08 | Macrosoft | no |
| 01:20.46 | AAA_awright | You may want to create one. I guess you could get someone to submit on your behalf, but... |
| 01:21.40 | donny_baker | Macrosoft: an account on sf is free |
| 01:21.58 | Macrosoft | *goes to make one* |
| 01:22.38 | AAA_awright | Oh, well yah, it's free. Comes with an email alias and unix account (which you can't do anything on) too. |
| 01:24.14 | *** join/#bzflag HighKarateKitty (n=HighKara@ip68-98-31-187.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 01:25.55 | Macrosoft | bah! someone is already using my name |
| 01:26.31 | AAA_awright | That could be a problem: http://bzflag.redjacket.ws/index.php/player/Legoguy |
| 01:27.18 | AAA_awright | When you switch from Hunter to Rabbit, it thinks you started a new session. |
| 01:27.36 | Macrosoft | there we go, used my new callsign and my old one put together |
| 01:29.48 | AAA_awright | What username? |
| 01:38.20 | Macrosoft | patch submitted |
| 01:39.28 | Macrosoft | username: macrosoft00 |
| 01:51.51 | *** join/#bzflag tannerld (n=tanner@adsl-068-209-251-067.sip.asm.bellsouth.net) |
| 01:54.03 | *** join/#bzflag CBG` (n=CBG@about/essy/fan/CBG) |
| 02:08.48 | Macrosoft | do patches dissappear from the list on sf if they are merged into the source? |
| 02:13.29 | bryjen | they'd be changed to "closed" status |
| 02:14.44 | *** join/#bzflag a_meteorite (n=a_meteor@unaffiliated/ameteorite/x-000000001) |
| 02:14.49 | AAA_awright | Meteorite! |
| 02:15.46 | AAA_awright | http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1380342&group_id=3248&atid=353248 This is an interesting idea, could we design the protocol so multiple stats could be sent to clients? |
| 02:16.26 | a_meteorite | hi |
| 02:16.27 | AAA_awright | E.x. we could rank by a floating-point which is calculated independently of wins and losses. |
| 02:16.27 | a_meteorite | got back from work |
| 02:16.34 | tannerld | heh at Electric Light Orchestra |
| 02:16.55 | AAA_awright | Not an acrynom! |
| 02:17.09 | a_meteorite | gimme a min |
| 02:19.07 | a_meteorite | AAA_awright: I already suggested "calculating independently of wins and losses" to you. Remember? :P |
| 02:19.31 | a_meteorite | How long the person was playing, kills, what skill level of other players they could kill, CTFs... |
| 02:19.44 | a_meteorite | Factoring flag at the time of kill |
| 02:19.48 | *** join/#bzflag HighKarateKitty (n=HighKara@ip68-98-31-187.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 02:20.45 | AAA_awright | I mean so that a plugin can send a number for every player. |
| 02:21.08 | AAA_awright | You could probably do HP this way. |
| 02:21.29 | a_meteorite | Modifying their score in 2.1 is possible, but not to a float. |
| 02:21.39 | a_meteorite | (with a plugin at least) |
| 02:21.49 | AAA_awright | I am talking about sending more numbers then their score. |
| 02:21.56 | a_meteorite | I don't know how hit points works in. |
| 02:22.12 | AAA_awright | send an entire battery of stats if you want. Create a whole BZ-RPG. |
| 02:22.17 | a_meteorite | AAA_awright: Yeah, I've already thought how cool sending arbitrary columns to clients would be. |
| 02:22.25 | AAA_awright | Exactly. |
| 02:22.27 | a_meteorite | So you could add to the scoreborad. |
| 02:22.51 | a_meteorite | It wouldn't be exactly hard. Just someone's got to do it. |
| 02:22.51 | AAA_awright | Heh. |
| 02:23.16 | a_meteorite | There should be no problem on building a new column on the fly when it gets a packet for it. :) |
| 02:23.35 | AAA_awright | Design the packet you mean. What is sent when a plugin creates a new column? |
| 02:24.06 | a_meteorite | Er. |
| 02:24.30 | AAA_awright | MsgColumnDefinition { int number; loop{ string_60 name} } |
| 02:25.10 | a_meteorite | Why assign the column a number? |
| 02:25.12 | a_meteorite | You should be able to reference each row by the player's ID/name |
| 02:25.18 | *** join/#bzflag CBG (n=CBG@about/essy/fan/CBG) |
| 02:25.22 | AAA_awright | MsgColumnUpdate { int number;{int colid {chr slot; chr value;}}} |
| 02:25.34 | a_meteorite | that's good to me |
| 02:25.58 | a_meteorite | But would the devs go for it? I really think not. |
| 02:26.04 | AAA_awright | it loops through all the columns then loops through the value each player has. |
| 02:26.42 | AAA_awright | You probably could replace this with the MsgUpdateScore packet. |
| 02:26.59 | AAA_awright | won would have a default ID of 00, lost 01, tk 02 |
| 02:27.18 | a_meteorite | dev's comments much appreciated right about now |
| 02:29.20 | Macrosoft | the "easy button"? |
| 02:29.49 | a_meteorite | the easy button would code it up for us |
| 02:29.51 | AAA_awright | Macosoft: ~bigredbutton |
| 02:29.58 | AAA_awright | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:30.05 | a_meteorite | we don't want to waste easy button's powers on summoning a dev |
| 02:30.56 | AAA_awright | Macrosoft: /msg ibot bigredbutton |
| 02:31.02 | a_meteorite | rofl at ~bigredbutton !! |
| 02:31.48 | AAA_awright | Yah. |
| 02:31.52 | AAA_awright | Anyways. |
| 02:32.47 | Macrosoft | im tempted to see what ibot will say |
| 02:32.59 | a_meteorite | plug your ears |
| 02:33.26 | Macrosoft | that was odd |
| 02:34.27 | Macrosoft | lamer is the only one who would hear it |
| 02:36.00 | *** join/#bzflag a_meteorite (n=a_meteor@unaffiliated/ameteorite/x-000000001) |
| 02:36.43 | Macrosoft | pythonian has an a-load of bots on right now |
| 02:37.44 | a_meteorite | that's cause he hates everyone |
| 02:38.20 | Macrosoft | cant he be banned from the list server for "extreme douche-baggery" or something like that |
| 02:38.21 | tannerld | heh - no kidding - he has about 10 or so |
| 02:38.29 | tannerld | or did |
| 02:38.31 | tannerld | now 2 |
| 02:38.36 | a_meteorite | Macrosoft: not officially |
| 02:38.52 | Macrosoft | tannerld: he must have caught on |
| 02:39.16 | Macrosoft | nope, they're back again |
| 02:39.16 | AAA_awright | I will contribute! |
| 02:39.21 | a_meteorite | AAA_awright: ? |
| 02:39.28 | AAA_awright | join with -colo 30 |
| 02:39.34 | AAA_awright | :D |
| 02:39.34 | a_meteorite | rofl |
| 02:39.37 | a_meteorite | you'll get banned |
| 02:39.37 | AAA_awright | you want to too? |
| 02:39.37 | Macrosoft | colo? |
| 02:39.44 | AAA_awright | -solo |
| 02:39.53 | Macrosoft | -solo 200 |
| 02:39.54 | AAA_awright | From some random persons server, I don't care |
| 02:39.57 | a_meteorite | he invited me and some others to /poll ban the bots if we didn't want to play with bots |
| 02:40.01 | a_meteorite | he then banned us for it |
| 02:40.19 | tannerld | O.o |
| 02:40.29 | Macrosoft | im gonna try it (solo 30) |
| 02:41.04 | AAA_awright | Macrosoft: No |
| 02:41.08 | AAA_awright | Macrosoft: just 10 |
| 02:41.10 | Macrosoft | here goes >:) |
| 02:41.14 | AAA_awright | 30 is way too much data |
| 02:41.31 | Macrosoft | bot DOS'ing? |
| 02:42.04 | Macrosoft | attack my bot minions! eat his bandwidth! |
| 02:42.15 | AAA_awright | Ha, this is awesome |
| 02:42.30 | AAA_awright | AAA and AAA00-AAA14 |
| 02:42.54 | Macrosoft | everyone, join in |
| 02:42.55 | a_meteorite | rofl |
| 02:43.44 | Macrosoft | heh, we filled hi server |
| 02:43.50 | Macrosoft | *his |
| 02:44.16 | Macrosoft | now, we make all the bots go [nr] |
| 02:44.48 | a_meteorite | hey, if we all do it and get banned no one will be able to play at his server! ;D |
| 02:45.04 | Macrosoft | oh no! what ever will we do then :p |
| 02:45.07 | a_meteorite | hah |
| 02:46.54 | Macrosoft | AAA_awright: where'd you go? |
| 02:47.12 | AAA_awright | Kicked for tking :p |
| 02:47.28 | AAA_awright | meteorite: there are 6 slots open |
| 02:47.32 | a_meteorite | sweet |
| 02:47.32 | Macrosoft | oh. thats why i joined as obsercer |
| 02:47.37 | Macrosoft | *observer |
| 02:48.11 | Macrosoft | 6 slots? sounds like more bandwidth for the bots |
| 02:48.26 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM (n=JeffM@unaffiliated/jeffm) |
| 02:49.16 | Macrosoft | oops, i ghosted myself |
| 02:50.05 | Macrosoft | heh |
| 02:50.33 | Macrosoft | im anti-bot-man and Macrosoft |
| 02:51.44 | Macrosoft | yes! we've managed to make the server's jitter skyrocket |
| 02:53.45 | Macrosoft | he's gonna have a conniption when he finds out about all of it, but it was worth it |
| 02:55.05 | Macrosoft | yes! everyone went [nr]! |
| 02:55.21 | a_meteorite | hahah |
| 02:56.09 | AAA_awright | Shoot |
| 02:56.11 | AAA_awright | admin |
| 02:56.27 | Macrosoft | he's not doing anything |
| 02:56.42 | AAA_awright | He joined though |
| 02:57.11 | Macrosoft | too bad we cant tell the bots to hunt him and ignore everyone else |
| 02:57.25 | AAA_awright | a_meteorite: we need 4 registered players |
| 02:57.32 | AAA_awright | ROFL |
| 02:57.33 | Macrosoft | ...(sounds like a cool feature to add) |
| 02:57.35 | a_meteorite | hah |
| 02:58.02 | Macrosoft | it would be like /bothunt "hamburger ham" |
| 02:58.22 | Macrosoft | i bet he cant take on all those bots |
| 02:58.34 | a_meteorite | he's probably ban em :) |
| 02:58.40 | a_meteorite | *he'll |
| 02:59.05 | Macrosoft | i think i should add a /bothunt feature to my client |
| 02:59.43 | Macrosoft | ...it wouldnt be cheating or anything, just influencing who the bots target |
| 03:00.24 | JeffM | why are you bot flooding servers in the first place? |
| 03:00.31 | AAA_awright | uh |
| 03:00.34 | Macrosoft | bryjen: we're getting back at him for scamming list server all the time |
| 03:00.53 | JeffM | Macrosoft that is a private vengance thing |
| 03:01.06 | JeffM | the project does NOT condone any sort of flooding/attack actions |
| 03:01.24 | JeffM | if it's not your server your just as bad as any abbuser |
| 03:01.26 | bryjen | "scamming" would be having the server report 30 players all the time even with 0 actual |
| 03:01.31 | a_meteorite | JeffM: he likes bots, so we're helping him |
| 03:01.39 | a_meteorite | if he changes his mind he can ban us :) |
| 03:01.42 | JeffM | your abbusing the system |
| 03:01.46 | JeffM | take it away from here |
| 03:01.53 | JeffM | what you do is your thing |
| 03:01.56 | Macrosoft | already did |
| 03:01.58 | AAA_awright | http://bzflag.redjacket.ws/index.php/server/pythonian.com:5158 We get nice graphs from it. |
| 03:02.06 | AAA_awright | (sorry) |
| 03:02.29 | JeffM | it is wrong to impose your will and your rules on a server you don't own |
| 03:02.56 | jafm | AAA_awright: ricochet* |
| 03:02.56 | a_meteorite | the admins aren't having a problem with it, JeffM |
| 03:03.03 | a_meteorite | there are two and they seem to like our bots |
| 03:03.08 | a_meteorite | so, what's the problem? |
| 03:03.33 | AAA_awright | (met: nix it) |
| 03:03.37 | a_meteorite | :P |
| 03:03.42 | JeffM | why does the server admin's just not take care of it then? |
| 03:04.00 | a_meteorite | JeffM: cause maybe they LIKE the bots? they're keeping us around |
| 03:04.17 | JeffM | then that is between you guys and them |
| 03:04.25 | JeffM | just please don't discuss attack type things here |
| 03:04.26 | a_meteorite | that's fine |
| 03:04.29 | JeffM | making everyone go NR, etcc. |
| 03:18.46 | AWOSLappy | Does bzflag run on NetBSD? I mean, new bzflag. only thing they have in pkgsrc is 2.0.2 |
| 03:19.28 | a_meteorite | does netbsd have the libs bzflag needs? |
| 03:19.34 | a_meteorite | if so, sure, why not? |
| 03:19.43 | AWOSLappy | I dunno. It has SDL. |
| 03:21.12 | JeffM | it should |
| 03:21.28 | JeffM | there may be small build system things that have to be tweaked |
| 03:21.36 | JeffM | for 2.2 |
| 03:21.41 | a_meteorite | cause of ftgl? |
| 03:22.07 | JeffM | possibly |
| 03:22.12 | JeffM | or just stuff we changed |
| 03:22.26 | JeffM | and was never updated to compile on bsd |
| 03:22.35 | JeffM | some stuff is difrent then nix, compile flags, libs, etc.. |
| 03:23.09 | JeffM | but 2.0.x IIRC has been build on BSD |
| 03:23.09 | a_meteorite | yeah, of course |
| 03:23.27 | JeffM | bzflag.bz runs BSD |
| 03:23.54 | a_meteorite | as long as it doesn't start using platform-dependent libs or code, I don't see a big problem, but I am not an expert at *BSD |
| 03:24.44 | AWOSLappy | JeffM: 2.0.2 is in the repos. |
| 03:24.59 | AWOSLappy | I meant 2.0.8 |
| 03:25.05 | JeffM | all that means is that's the last time somone updated it ;) |
| 03:25.35 | AWOSLappy | oh |
| 03:25.37 | AWOSLappy | hehe |
| 03:31.04 | AAA_awright | Now, is anyone ever going to go through the sf tracker? There are some really simple and useful patches in there: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=3248&atid=353248 |
| 03:31.36 | JeffM | it is checked before a release |
| 03:31.49 | AAA_awright | This is "before a release" |
| 03:32.11 | JeffM | I mean right before |
| 03:32.30 | JeffM | usualy |
| 03:32.32 | AAA_awright | ... You are serious, aren't you? |
| 03:32.36 | JeffM | yes |
| 03:32.50 | JeffM | patches get applied 2 ways |
| 03:33.12 | JeffM | 1) some dev scans them before a release and looks to see what would be good to add |
| 03:33.28 | JeffM | or 2) the patch author bugs the heck out of a dev to apply it |
| 03:33.32 | JeffM | so yes, it IS used |
| 03:33.41 | JeffM | it's just not constant activity |
| 03:34.03 | JeffM | you bug A dev |
| 03:34.06 | JeffM | for A specific patch |
| 03:36.44 | AAA_awright | We can't even go through the list and say "this one won't be added" "this one is for 2.0.10" "this one is for 2.2" |
| 03:36.53 | bryjen | the "Feature Request" items don't even necessarily have a patch attached. they're just requests. somebody'd have to be motivated to code 'em up. |
| 03:37.11 | JeffM | yeah |
| 03:37.17 | JeffM | those are all just ideas |
| 03:37.36 | JeffM | and they are not all "approved" |
| 03:37.44 | JeffM | anyone can add them |
| 03:37.57 | AAA_awright | "this one won't be added" |
| 03:38.04 | AAA_awright | etc... |
| 03:38.15 | JeffM | noone checks those and updates the statuses |
| 03:38.15 | DTRemenak | AAA_awright: someone could, sure. nobody does, generally. some of us go through it occasionally and cherry-pick the ones we like best, and reject the ones that are ridiculous. |
| 03:38.31 | AAA_awright | Lets do that now. |
| 03:38.45 | JeffM | no |
| 03:38.53 | JeffM | that's not how we work |
| 03:38.55 | bryjen | iirc, purple_cow went or someone through the actual Patches tracker a while back and moved the rejects to Rejected Mods |
| 03:39.02 | AAA_awright | Um... that isn't how open source works |
| 03:39.12 | JeffM | there are many ways to run an open source project |
| 03:39.22 | JeffM | this is one |
| 03:39.43 | a_meteorite | disorganization hurts projects |
| 03:39.49 | JeffM | never said it was a good way, but it's what we generaly do |
| 03:39.53 | AAA_awright | (sigh) All of the really great projects work that way. |
| 03:39.57 | a_meteorite | plus if you do it "right before a release" the chances of it getting in that release is more slip |
| 03:39.59 | a_meteorite | *slim |
| 03:40.04 | JeffM | you think bzflag is ORGANISED? and HOW long have you been here? |
| 03:40.11 | a_meteorite | just suggesting it should be |
| 03:40.14 | DTRemenak | for better or for worse, bzflag is a project completely devoid of "responsibilities." nobody "has" to do anything, ever. people will if they want to, and won't if they don't. |
| 03:40.16 | AAA_awright | Since 1.5 |
| 03:40.33 | JeffM | 1.5 of bzflag? |
| 03:40.57 | JeffM | that would be pre-open source |
| 03:41.02 | AAA_awright | about half a year before the protocol break that was the protocol break before 2.0. |
| 03:41.11 | JeffM | 1.10 |
| 03:41.23 | JeffM | bzflag is generaly decentralised |
| 03:41.26 | JeffM | devs do what they want |
| 03:41.29 | JeffM | no assignments |
| 03:41.33 | JeffM | no policy |
| 03:41.36 | JeffM | nothing like that |
| 03:41.43 | JeffM | it's prety free form |
| 03:41.57 | JeffM | firefox it ain't |
| 03:42.15 | AAA_awright | And that is why we have had no releases since 2006. |
| 03:42.16 | JeffM | if it was like you say you want it to be, it'd have a roadmap, and a plan, and a lot more things |
| 03:42.23 | JeffM | yeah, bzflag is dead |
| 03:42.27 | JeffM | it just dosn't know it yet |
| 03:42.43 | Macrosoft | *</rant> |
| 03:42.47 | bryjen | hush, you. it's just sleeping |
| 03:42.51 | AAA_awright | Because active developers don't take code in while the patches will still merge. |
| 03:42.52 | bryjen | very soundly. ;) |
| 03:42.59 | AAA_awright | Yah. |
| 03:43.02 | JeffM | AAA_awright, cus it's maintainer dosn't manage ;) |
| 03:43.43 | JeffM | Tim's a good guy, he's just not the type of manager a game needs |
| 03:43.54 | JeffM | OSS games rarely work like other OSS projects |
| 03:47.14 | JeffM | sadly the problem with "just doing it now" like you say, is you'd not get everyone to agree on all the features |
| 03:47.27 | AAA_awright | That is what IRC is for. |
| 03:47.32 | JeffM | even with IRC |
| 03:47.34 | AAA_awright | Especially freenode. |
| 03:47.39 | JeffM | you won't get agreement |
| 03:47.45 | JeffM | it's NOT a techicnal issue, it's a person issue ;) |
| 03:48.15 | JeffM | rotating turrets is a good example |
| 03:48.18 | JeffM | many want it |
| 03:48.20 | JeffM | many don't |
| 03:48.29 | JeffM | you'll never get agreement |
| 03:48.37 | JeffM | since there is no doc or plan for what bzflag "is" |
| 03:48.38 | DTRemenak | AAA_awright: you have the right idea, trying to get people to look at patches. the problem is you can't just say "oh let's look at all the patches now plz." you'd have better luck picking a specific developer and bugging him or her about a specific patch that is the one you would check in first if you were in charge (and ideally not too controversial). |
| 03:49.16 | AAA_awright | That. Is. Why. I. Create. Them. |
| 03:49.16 | JeffM | yeah, or if you want to see a feature request done, do it, make a patch, and bug somone to get it in |
| 03:49.31 | DTRemenak | and you'll have the best luck if it's someone who works on that area. |
| 03:49.36 | JeffM | indeed |
| 03:49.44 | Macrosoft | ~bug devs |
| 03:49.51 | DTRemenak | I've seen exactly one patch from you, and I hate php, so I ain't gonna look at that one. |
| 03:49.52 | JeffM | just don't assume that all the patches are reviewed on a regular basis |
| 03:50.17 | JeffM | and yeah if you do generic "bug" stuff like little mr. macrosoft there says, most will ignore it |
| 03:50.44 | JeffM | was that the fancy list server with ajax? |
| 03:51.30 | DTRemenak | no, a replacement for/revision of the weblogin page |
| 03:51.35 | JeffM | ahh |
| 03:51.40 | JeffM | difrent then what blast commited? |
| 03:51.48 | blast007 | yeah |
| 03:51.57 | blast007 | he modified weblogin.php |
| 03:51.59 | JeffM | better? worse? dif? |
| 03:52.02 | JeffM | ahh |
| 03:52.06 | JeffM | what does it change? |
| 03:52.06 | blast007 | can't tell yet |
| 03:52.14 | AAA_awright | *headdesk* |
| 03:52.26 | blast007 | I was having to manually go through to see what was changed |
| 03:52.40 | JeffM | I mean all that did was make the token right? |
| 03:52.46 | JeffM | what other features does it need? |
| 03:52.46 | blast007 | over half the file had changes |
| 03:52.59 | blast007 | so it was hard to pinpoint what he truely changed |
| 03:53.16 | JeffM | if it would use the bzbb cookie, that'd be a good feature |
| 03:53.26 | blast007 | hmm |
| 03:53.33 | AAA_awright | Security problem. |
| 03:53.48 | blast007 | AAA_awright: I would have rather it fixed JUST that |
| 03:53.54 | JeffM | and a security problem needed over half the file changed? |
| 03:54.09 | blast007 | instead of taking out the functions and changing half the whitespace in the file |
| 03:54.14 | AAA_awright | Sorry, cookies don't work cross-domain |
| 03:54.25 | blast007 | AAA_awright: same domain.... |
| 03:54.29 | blast007 | it's all on m.b.o |
| 03:54.30 | JeffM | the page is hosted on the same doming |
| 03:54.31 | JeffM | yeah |
| 03:54.41 | blast007 | forum, wiki, list, stats |
| 03:54.41 | JeffM | other sites DON'T use weblogin |
| 03:54.47 | JeffM | they use checktoken |
| 03:54.56 | JeffM | and forward the browser to webloging |
| 03:55.02 | JeffM | so they don't get a password |
| 03:55.13 | AAA_awright | Exactly. |
| 03:55.31 | JeffM | so since it's done on .bzflag.org, you can use the bzbb cookie |
| 03:56.09 | JeffM | did you add/change any other features other then the security fix? |
| 03:56.13 | AAA_awright | I'm not changing how internal logins work? |
| 03:56.15 | AAA_awright | . |
| 03:56.29 | JeffM | we don't know what you did, few of us know php |
| 03:56.36 | JeffM | so we are asking you to explain |
| 03:56.38 | AAA_awright | I have a full change list |
| 03:56.46 | AAA_awright | Posted right there with the patch like you said |
| 03:56.49 | AAA_awright | a while back. |
| 03:57.00 | JeffM | ok, so your unwilling to just explain it to us here? |
| 03:57.10 | JeffM | like summary |
| 03:58.10 | AAA_awright | It changes the default login scheme to POST so logins don't become cached, has an example form like what you see on my.bzflag.org/db, |
| 03:58.34 | blast007 | but that's a one word change |
| 03:58.35 | JeffM | what was wrong with the old form? |
| 03:58.37 | blast007 | s/GET/POST/ |
| 03:58.59 | JeffM | cus db isn't exactly the best interface in the world |
| 03:59.01 | AAA_awright | http://my.bzflag.org/weblogin.php called with no paramaters posts an eerror. |
| 03:59.13 | AAA_awright | I just added an error+form |
| 03:59.16 | JeffM | ok so some error cehcsks |
| 03:59.29 | JeffM | tho if there are no params, we should not have any form |
| 03:59.34 | JeffM | cus that's invalid use |
| 03:59.41 | JeffM | it's not meant to be a DB client |
| 03:59.49 | JeffM | it just happens to use DB to do it's job |
| 03:59.52 | AAA_awright | It's an example. |
| 03:59.57 | JeffM | what was wrong with the old form? |
| 04:00.05 | JeffM | did you leave the form? |
| 04:00.14 | blast007 | he changed the form to use POST |
| 04:00.21 | JeffM | but does it look the same? |
| 04:00.25 | AAA_awright | The login form when you pass a URL only replaces username with callsign |
| 04:00.27 | blast007 | this prevents the password from being saved in the history |
| 04:00.30 | AAA_awright | otherwise it looks the same |
| 04:01.25 | JeffM | ok so change get to post |
| 04:01.32 | JeffM | and make a better error check |
| 04:01.37 | JeffM | those sound like small changes |
| 04:01.45 | AAA_awright | Ah, let me see... |
| 04:02.02 | blast007 | it's not worth my time to sort through the new file |
| 04:02.06 | blast007 | I can make those changes on my own |
| 04:04.54 | AAA_awright | Oh, and you don't want users to be posting their callsign and password from another site. I didn't break that, but it isn't a good thing in general. |
| 04:06.10 | JeffM | what do you mean posting from another site? |
| 04:06.19 | JeffM | runing there own weblogin? |
| 04:06.48 | brlcad | yeah, someone providing their own form and then presumably redirecting to bzbb |
| 04:06.57 | JeffM | we can't prevent that |
| 04:07.08 | JeffM | since db takes raw connections |
| 04:07.09 | brlcad | some do a direct post |
| 04:07.16 | brlcad | that can be prevented |
| 04:07.27 | blast007 | brlcad: nope |
| 04:07.37 | JeffM | but we can't prevent them from hosting there own form that looks the same |
| 04:07.53 | brlcad | no, we can't prevent them from hosting the form of coruse |
| 04:08.17 | blast007 | brlcad: so what can be prevented? |
| 04:09.11 | blast007 | my site has a form that posts directly to the weblogin page |
| 04:09.20 | brlcad | best we can do is make sure the referrer matches (not full proof of course, but better than nothing) |
| 04:09.21 | AAA_awright | Ditto here. |
| 04:10.05 | blast007 | that helps how? |
| 04:10.19 | blast007 | not sure what you're trying to "prevent" |
| 04:10.38 | AAA_awright | So people don't get into the habit of filling their password on random forms on random sites! |
| 04:11.06 | AAA_awright | It has its (Very limited) uses, even I use it, but even I would prefer it be totally banned. |
| 04:11.08 | brlcad | it's not that it prevents a whole lot, folks can still make the forms |
| 04:11.14 | brlcad | the point would be that the form wouldn't work |
| 04:11.37 | blast007 | that would break strayer's site and my site :) |
| 04:11.42 | *** join/#bzflag SimonFlavelle (n=psychosi@CPE-58-169-153-27.vic.bigpond.net.au) |
| 04:11.49 | blast007 | with minimal benefit |
| 04:11.58 | brlcad | blast007: which in the big scheme would probably be a good thing :) |
| 04:12.04 | JeffM | it's a social benifit more then anything |
| 04:12.16 | brlcad | we're just luck that that hasn't been abused to all heck so far |
| 04:12.33 | brlcad | you could still get that working, doing effectively what paypal does |
| 04:12.41 | brlcad | you just wouldn't host the form |
| 04:12.44 | JeffM | we should tie it to a certificate :) |
| 04:12.56 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03blast007 * r14696 10/trunk/db/weblogin.php: Use POST instead of GET |
| 04:13.11 | AAA_awright | :) |
| 04:13.30 | AAA_awright | blast007: you changed the variables to $_REQUEST or $_POST right? |
| 04:13.35 | blast007 | AAA_awright: nope |
| 04:13.51 | blast007 | I already did |
| 04:14.10 | blast007 | my website has been using post all along to submit to the weblogin |
| 04:14.27 | AAA_awright | Oh, okay. That's good. |
| 04:14.35 | brlcad | AAA_awright: continuing from the talk earlier, the best someone in your position can/should do is just stay involved, keep making patches |
| 04:14.43 | blast007 | AAA_awright: and I would hope it WOULD work, since YOU still used $_REQUEST in your weblogin.php ;) |
| 04:15.27 | brlcad | after "enough" interaction, an existing dev will eventually sponsor the new dev, but that only happens usually after a good bit of interaction or a fairly safe feeling that the person isn't going to cause more trouble then they're worth |
| 04:16.00 | AAA_awright | Heh. |
| 04:16.01 | brlcad | once you get dev access, you have a lot more weight as actions speak more than anything |
| 04:16.41 | brlcad | if it feels like you'll be a pain in the arse, though, causing arguments or otherwise, then .. yeah, it'd be tough |
| 04:17.14 | JeffM | it helps if your willing to explain your changes as well |
| 04:17.36 | AAA_awright | if(isset($_SERVER['HTTP_REFERER']) && $_SERVER['HTTP_REFERER'] && parse_url($_SERVER['HTTP_REFERER'],1)!='my.bzflag.org') die('Invalid referer! Please try the form at <a href="http://my.bzflag.org/weblogin.php?url=...">http://my.bzflag.org</a>'); |
| 04:18.03 | brlcad | and for the record, JeffM, I don't think bzflag's any more dead than it's ever been, not that saying it's "dead" or not really means much of anything at all -- open source is as open source does |
| 04:18.07 | AAA_awright | Something to that effect? |
| 04:18.15 | brlcad | AAA_awright: yeah, something like that |
| 04:18.26 | JeffM | I know you don't think that ;) |
| 04:18.32 | brlcad | cept it really does need some way to pass a token back |
| 04:20.28 | brlcad | I certainly don't spend much less time on BZ on the whole than I did a few years ago, the time is just spread out on more things |
| 04:20.48 | brlcad | it was a lot more evident when it was 100% to code |
| 04:21.26 | brlcad | administration and communication are pretty darn thankless jobs :) |
| 04:21.57 | AAA_awright | *cough*whatadministration*cough* |
| 04:21.58 | L4m3r | try working in foodservice... |
| 04:22.22 | JeffM | AAA_awright, he runs the actual SERVER |
| 04:22.44 | JeffM | bzflag.bz and my.bzflag.org |
| 04:22.47 | JeffM | that does take SOME time |
| 04:23.01 | brlcad | AAA_awright: exactly my point, you know very little what I do behind the scenes |
| 04:23.18 | brlcad | not just sysadmin, but other stuff too |
| 04:23.29 | AAA_awright | brlcad: Happy sysadmins day |
| 04:23.36 | brlcad | it's all good |
| 04:23.50 | L4m3r | brlcad: I'd give you karma, but, well... |
| 04:24.49 | brlcad | I don't do it for kudos, it's generally a thankless job :) |
| 04:25.02 | brlcad | I work on bz because I enjoy it, even the mind numbing stuff :) |
| 04:26.06 | L4m3r | heh |
| 04:26.08 | brlcad | hehe |
| 04:28.03 | brlcad | one of the biggest differences compared to other "big" projects is that many of them have paid-for staff involved or passionate leadership .. neither of which does bz have, hence why it's more freeform |
| 04:28.04 | AAA_awright | brlcad: Just announce new features on IRC. I got half my karma from jude- when I announced my player-league-finder on http://bzflag.redjacket.ws/ |
| 04:28.55 | brlcad | AAA_awright: what are you talking about?? |
| 04:29.42 | AAA_awright | I announce what I am working on (no matter if it gets flamed or not) and people enjoy that. I enjoy that. |
| 04:29.45 | brlcad | if you've been around here long enough, you should know that I do as do the other devs, that's one of the things expected -- collaborating and being visible |
| 04:30.39 | AAA_awright | I never see you announcing a new phpbb plugin or does CIA do that for you. |
| 04:31.05 | JeffM | phpbb plugin? |
| 04:31.15 | brlcad | I think you misunderstood |
| 04:31.16 | AAA_awright | Not like any have ever been added. |
| 04:31.21 | brlcad | there is a lot of maintenance work |
| 04:31.29 | brlcad | there's nothing to announce with maintenance work |
| 04:31.46 | AAA_awright | Yah there is. I know there is. |
| 04:32.02 | brlcad | you think that jeff should have "announced" the hundreds of posts he made to bzbb to support users, keep operatings running smoothly? |
| 04:32.15 | L4m3r | aside from "Sorry bzbb is slow today, there's a botnet attacking it again" |
| 04:32.21 | AAA_awright | "Yeay, kept MySQL from imploding"... I will stop talking righr about now... |
| 04:32.33 | JeffM | what the HELL are you talkinga bout? |
| 04:33.37 | brlcad | yeah, so I spent four hours reviewing various log files because of player network attacks.. woo hoo.. you have now been informed ... whoopty do |
| 04:33.46 | JeffM | hey... this is what that google video warned about isn't it? |
| 04:34.01 | brlcad | a little bit :) |
| 04:34.15 | *** join/#bzflag AWOSDev2100 (n=awilcox@c-76-26-0-123.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) |
| 04:34.19 | brlcad | but then that would make you a contributor to the poisonous persona too a little bit :P |
| 04:34.29 | JeffM | never said I wasn't |
| 04:34.32 | brlcad | heh |
| 04:34.39 | brlcad | so that's the new plan? :) |
| 04:34.50 | JeffM | I've always had the die->fork plan |
| 04:35.01 | JeffM | DTRemenak, did an SGI show up at work? |
| 04:35.05 | blast007 | JeffM: I'd go with that :) |
| 04:35.09 | DTRemenak | not that I am aware of |
| 04:35.13 | JeffM | maybe monday |
| 04:35.27 | AAA_awright | brlcad: Yah, I like to know what troubled httpd today. So what if the botnet is coming from China/India/countryYouHaveNeverHeardOf? That is interesting. |
| 04:35.58 | blast007 | Solar flares. That is all. |
| 04:35.59 | brlcad | AAA_awright: then keep contributing and become a trusted dev, then you'd get to do deal with loads of that stuff |
| 04:36.10 | *** join/#bzflag AWOSLappy (n=awilcox@unaffiliated/awosdev) |
| 04:36.18 | brlcad | otherwise, it doesn't benefit ME at all to spend even more time belaboring the maintenance issues |
| 04:36.55 | brlcad | as there is constant development to make maintenace be reduced, to actually work on someting more interesting and useful like game development |
| 04:39.33 | brlcad | otherwise, I could spend all day just spinning wheels keeping everyone neatly informed and then the project really would be dead .. I see that overhead planning/dissemination/communication bloat way too much in other places to see it happen here without direct need |
| 04:40.27 | JeffM | bettter to just wait till some dev that wants to help make it better comes up and then engage in a constructive convesation |
| 04:40.44 | JeffM | not every bit of info has to be served to everyone on a silver platter |
| 04:40.49 | brlcad | quite true |
| 04:41.01 | JeffM | if a dev is intersted in the backend stuff and the problems it has, they should do some freaking research |
| 04:41.41 | brlcad | if there were 10 actively engaged devs all wanting to work on feature X, then that would beg for better planning, forethought, and coordination |
| 04:42.12 | brlcad | as it is, there's about five guys that put in changes when they can in areas that interest them the most |
| 04:42.50 | JeffM | that many? |
| 04:43.06 | brlcad | becoming one of those guys isn't hard at all, you just have to be someone that will mesh well and understands the foundations/philosophy for better or worse |
| 04:44.22 | brlcad | overall, yeah .. just looking at last two months' activity |
| 04:44.33 | JeffM | you can have my slot if that will help my plan go faster :) |
| 04:45.48 | brlcad | you're still contributing majorly even if you don't want to :) |
| 04:46.09 | JeffM | all my code is boobytraped |
| 04:46.13 | brlcad | e.g. new fonts, code written how long ago? there's probably a couple dozens enhancements like that I could pull/integrate :) |
| 04:46.36 | JeffM | I'm a master obfuscator, didn't you know ;) |
| 04:46.40 | brlcad | I found a few of those boobies in gdb :) |
| 04:46.45 | brlcad | mm.. boobies |
| 04:48.53 | AAA_awright | Oh, no! The BZFlag player count is going down! It will be 0 in just a few hours! http://bzflag.redjacket.ws/index.php/graph.3/allw |
| 04:49.41 | brlcad | ~bzflist |
| 04:49.44 | JeffM | what's that? a day? |
| 04:50.09 | blast007 | 281 servers.... hehe |
| 04:50.17 | JeffM | that is so freaking sad |
| 04:50.31 | JeffM | more servers then players |
| 04:50.34 | blast007 | I filter my list :P |
| 04:51.04 | JeffM | the 100ish to 200ish daily cycle is comon |
| 04:51.05 | blast007 | I only hae 161 servers |
| 04:51.14 | JeffM | usualy stays at 200ish longer on weekends. |
| 04:51.17 | AAA_awright | 10 active servers. |
| 04:51.51 | DTRemenak | funny, I only have 11 servers on my list...2.0? what's that? :) |
| 04:51.54 | JeffM | the stats I'd like to know is unique players per day |
| 04:52.00 | AAA_awright | It was 215 about 8 hours ago. |
| 04:52.08 | JeffM | and unique server hosts |
| 04:52.13 | AAA_awright | JeffM: I can give you unique callsigns |
| 04:52.20 | JeffM | that's not the same |
| 04:52.27 | JeffM | I want by IP, at the list server level |
| 04:53.25 | JeffM | I;d also like to know how many people list, then don't join |
| 04:53.38 | JeffM | and the % of users who list, then just join one of the top 10's |
| 04:53.40 | brlcad | east coast u.s. went to bed |
| 04:53.53 | JeffM | and how many players always go to the same server |
| 04:54.03 | JeffM | real play style data |
| 04:55.11 | AAA_awright | There have been 8238 player sessions in the past 24 hours, and 2388 unique callsigns. I can run my list server load script again if you want more details... |
| 04:55.59 | JeffM | you can't collect the info I need |
| 04:56.09 | JeffM | we'd need changes at the list server and game server level |
| 04:56.12 | JeffM | well not need |
| 04:56.14 | JeffM | would like :) |
| 04:56.16 | AAA_awright | I blame that on the protocol |
| 04:56.28 | JeffM | there is nothing to "blame" |
| 04:56.35 | JeffM | it's just not something that is tracked or exposed |
| 04:56.43 | JeffM | so we'd ahve to add features to do it |
| 04:56.44 | AAA_awright | I could collect that IF i put a bot on every server with more then two tanks. And I have done that before. |
| 04:56.58 | AAA_awright | I still have the data I collected... |
| 04:56.59 | AAA_awright | ! |
| 04:57.00 | JeffM | no, that STILL dosn't get you the list server info |
| 04:57.15 | JeffM | umm great you have data, it's not what I want |
| 04:57.49 | JeffM | no ammount of "collection" will get any data about how many users get a list |
| 04:58.04 | JeffM | that has to be collected at the list server level |
| 04:58.09 | brlcad | putting a bot on every server is also a nasty implementation approach -- there are better ways if we were to really want/need to get that data |
| 04:58.14 | AAA_awright | The list server can log data like that. blast007: can you set it to do that right now? |
| 04:58.22 | JeffM | yes I KNOW IT can |
| 04:58.28 | JeffM | that is why I said we'd have to mod it |
| 04:58.43 | AAA_awright | I know you know |
| 04:58.53 | JeffM | we'd also have to send the connecting player's IP to the list |
| 04:58.58 | JeffM | to match up lists to joins |
| 04:59.12 | JeffM | a flat fixed poll won't cut it |
| 04:59.27 | *** join/#bzflag BenUrban (n=benurban@unaffiliated/benurban) |
| 04:59.40 | JeffM | client IDs would be nice too |
| 04:59.51 | JeffM | but that's a lot harder/borderline privacy invasion |
| 05:00.17 | AAA_awright | The EFF says anonymous data collection is okay if you cant track people |
| 05:00.38 | AAA_awright | Which a unique ID would be tracking... |
| 05:00.41 | JeffM | hence why I say borderline |
| 05:00.49 | JeffM | yeah we'd be tracking people |
| 05:00.58 | JeffM | as soon as we tie that to bzbb |
| 05:01.01 | AAA_awright | Generate a seperate ID for listing and logging in? |
| 05:01.10 | JeffM | or just use IP ;) |
| 05:01.11 | AAA_awright | no, we need to know the funnel rate |
| 05:01.15 | JeffM | it's good enogh for a silly game |
| 05:01.25 | AAA_awright | Yah. |
| 05:02.17 | JeffM | IPs change less often then callsigns |
| 05:02.45 | blast007 | less? |
| 05:03.00 | JeffM | yes |
| 05:03.18 | JeffM | it's known that some users change callsigns often |
| 05:03.36 | AAA_awright | random server network admin: how hard it is to ban people on a dynamic IP? |
| 05:03.42 | JeffM | IP's are usualy changed on leas update changes ( for "normal" users ) |
| 05:03.54 | JeffM | depends on the range of the ISP |
| 05:04.29 | blast007 | AAA_awright: it's easy: /hostban |
| 05:04.54 | AAA_awright | I thought that was an IP ban. |
| 05:05.17 | blast007 | no, it's based on the hostmask |
| 05:05.29 | blast007 | you can ban an ISP or a part of an ISP quite easily ;) |
| 05:07.13 | AAA_awright | I don't see any difference between ban and hostban on bzfx or tedius's's'server |
| 05:07.44 | JeffM | hostban takes a dns based hostmask |
| 05:07.49 | JeffM | like *.users.aol.com |
| 05:07.58 | JeffM | ban takes an IP or range |
| 05:08.34 | AAA_awright | Ah. I see hostban being used with ip addresses too... hm. Tell the other admins perhaps? |
| 05:28.56 | *** join/#bzflag A_Heart_Attack (n=mattfp48@ool-44c75115.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 05:38.34 | *** part/#bzflag AAA_awright (n=chatzill@wsip-68-14-251-102.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 07:05.57 | brlcad | donny_baker: .htaccess files should be (re)enabled on the web server now |
| 07:17.59 | donny_baker | brlcad: k |
| 07:18.32 | donny_baker | I'm leaving on a jet plane in 3 hrs... cya in 3 weeks |
| 07:23.05 | *** join/#bzflag jude- (n=jude@c-68-84-206-92.hsd1.ar.comcast.net) |
| 07:23.15 | jude- | hello all |
| 07:23.34 | donny_baker | hi jude- |
| 07:23.41 | donny_baker | ~jude++ |
| 07:23.53 | jude- | what'd I do? |
| 07:23.54 | donny_baker | just getting ahead ;) |
| 07:24.23 | jude- | not work, as in, on BZWB. I mean work, as in, as a deli clerk |
| 07:24.28 | donny_baker | going on vacation for 3 weeks, so I'm going to miss getting in when some really good stuff happens |
| 07:24.36 | jude- | ahhh |
| 07:24.58 | donny_baker | ah the deli... I worked in a deli for 3 years |
| 07:24.59 | jude- | have fun on your vacation :) |
| 07:25.08 | brlcad | cya donny_baker .. nice vacation :) |
| 07:25.14 | jude- | ya--you told me once |
| 07:25.15 | donny_baker | thanks |
| 07:25.27 | donny_baker | heh |
| 07:25.37 | brlcad | i hear they have good sandwiches |
| 07:26.46 | donny_baker | cool |
| 07:27.24 | donny_baker | ok.. i just got the last of my work done (22 hour marathon) and have to go pack |
| 07:27.35 | jude- | 22 hour marathon? |
| 07:27.52 | donny_baker | yep, i've been working for 22 hrs straight |
| 07:27.57 | jude- | dang |
| 07:28.01 | jude- | get some rest :) |
| 07:28.26 | donny_baker | yeah, ill sleep on the plane.. 4 1/2 r flight to San Diego |
| 07:30.24 | L4m3r | donny_baker: if you're up in the LA area let me know ;) |
| 07:31.23 | donny_baker | L4m3r: nope heading south east up into the mountains in Mexico for 6 days... then flying to Italy |
| 07:31.36 | L4m3r | wow |
| 07:31.45 | jude- | fun stuff :) |
| 07:31.46 | *** join/#bzflag Pommes (n=Pommes@about/essy/frenchy/Pommes) |
| 07:31.48 | L4m3r | have fun, don't drink the water >_< |
| 07:31.59 | *** join/#bzflag bier_ (n=bier@p54A5044D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 07:32.18 | jude- | or boil it first :) |
| 07:32.19 | donny_baker | heh, it doesn;t bother me, have been going for 15 years |
| 07:32.42 | donny_baker | of course, I'm careful about it |
| 07:33.35 | donny_baker | and there is no running water where I'm going, you have to truck in bottled water and have resivours on the roofs of the cabin |
| 07:34.21 | donny_baker | kind of rustic, just my family, scorpions, tarantulas and rattlesnakes :) |
| 07:34.30 | jude- | ruffin' it, I take it :) |
| 07:34.54 | donny_baker | well there is a cabin, so it's not to rough |
| 07:35.04 | donny_baker | but it is peacful |
| 07:35.44 | donny_baker | k, im off... cya on the 17th |
| 07:35.44 | jude- | try cooking rattlesnake...it tastes like extra-chewy chicken :) |
| 07:35.50 | donny_baker | heh |
| 07:35.57 | jude- | have fun :) |
| 07:36.05 | L4m3r | Don't smoke the salvia |
| 07:36.16 | donny_baker | :) |
| 07:36.23 | L4m3r | ...take it home and use it. it's still legal in most states iirc :P |
| 07:36.26 | jude- | nah--sell it to narcs for extra cash :) |
| 07:36.49 | L4m3r | jude-: if you're looking to profit, just hoard it and wait for it to get banned |
| 07:36.54 | L4m3r | instant price hike :P |
| 07:36.57 | jude- | heh |
| 07:37.09 | jude- | or go somewhere where it's already banned :) |
| 09:53.06 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03judecn * r14697 10/trunk/bzworkbench/ (15 files in 10 dirs): |
| 09:53.06 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: Added preliminary support for teleporters. They can be translated, rotated, and scaled at this time; teleporter-specific |
| 09:53.06 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: dialogs controlling linkage and border size are on their way. The mesh itself is a bit inconsistant with BZFlag's, but that |
| 09:53.06 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: will change soon. Also, fixed a bug in the way boxes are rendered, and fixed a critical flaw in one of the box::update() methods. |
| 11:02.22 | *** join/#bzflag Pimpi_ (n=frank@gondolin.pimpi.org) |
| 11:18.42 | daxxar | Hm |
| 11:18.44 | daxxar | brlcad: you here? |
| 11:20.50 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03daxxar * r14698 10/trunk/bzflag/ (8 files in 4 dirs): |
| 11:20.50 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: Updated TODO. |
| 11:20.50 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: Portable use of __attribute__ ((__format__ (__printf__, i, j))); in bzfs api, textutils/pluginutils and rclink. |
| 11:20.50 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: This allows us to get warnings if format string / argument-count (type?) mismatches, under gcc. |
| 11:20.50 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: NEEDS TO BE TESTED ON OTHER PLATFORMS. *SHOULD* WORK CORRECTLY UNDER NON-GCC, BUT UNTESTED. |
| 11:21.45 | daxxar | I'd appreciate if anyone on another platform or compiler could test that change. (i.e. compile bzfs) |
| 11:22.36 | daxxar | brlcad: Btw, I did a (cd other/freetype/builds/unix/ && svn revert * && ./configure) && make, and it seems to build a bit further. |
| 11:23.23 | daxxar | brlcad: Now it fails with: g++ -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I. -I../../../include -I../../../src/other/ftgl/inc -I../../../src/other/freetype/include -g -O2 -MT FTGlyphContainer.lo -MD -MP -MF ".deps/FTGlyphContainer.Tpo" -c -o FTGlyphContainer.lo `test -f 'src/FTGlyphContainer.cpp' || echo './'`src/FTGlyphContainer.cpp; |
| 11:23.28 | daxxar | ../../../src/other/ftgl/inc/FTTextureGlyph.h:55: error: extra qualification 'FTTextureGlyph::' on member 'ResetActiveTexture' |
| 11:24.39 | daxxar | Removing "FTTextureGlyph::" from it makes it compile. I'm curious why it's class FTTextureGlyph { /* .. snip .. */ void FTTextureGlyph::ResetActiveTexture() { /* .. snip .. */ } }; |
| 11:24.42 | daxxar | Was it moved? |
| 11:33.08 | daxxar | Committing a few fixes in a sec or two |
| 11:35.24 | daxxar | This atleast builds cleanly on my end: |
| 11:35.31 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03daxxar * r14699 10/trunk/bzflag/ (3 files in 3 dirs): |
| 11:35.31 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: Removed useless & invalid usage of classname:: before a method name inside a class declaration. |
| 11:35.31 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: Added another __attribute__ __format___ __printf__, fixed one I added earlier. |
| 11:35.41 | daxxar | (Assuming I do svn revert on everything in src/other/ftgl/unix/ and reconfigure only ftgl) |
| 11:37.47 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03daxxar * r14700 10/trunk/bzflag/src/other/ (freetype/builds/unix/ ftgl/): updated svn:ignore |
| 11:40.29 | daxxar | Are font-sizes hard-coded? |
| 12:15.27 | *** join/#bzflag Pommes (n=Pommes@about/essy/frenchy/Pommes) |
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| 14:11.51 | *** join/#bzflag Tupone (n=linuxclu@pdpc/supporter/active/Tupone) |
| 14:11.51 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v Tupone] by ChanServ |
| 14:13.31 | Tupone | hola Sean |
| 14:58.36 | *** join/#bzflag poolio (n=poolio@c-69-251-3-107.hsd1.md.comcast.net) |
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| 15:42.11 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v bryjen] by ChanServ |
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| 15:51.40 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v Tupone] by ChanServ |
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| 15:58.02 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v Tupone_] by ChanServ |
| 16:01.54 | brlcad | ciao Tupone |
| 16:02.04 | Tupone | :) |
| 16:02.28 | Tupone | how is working ftgl? Is that good? |
| 16:03.03 | brlcad | yeah, there are some configure/build issues to fix, but it seems to be working very nicely |
| 16:03.11 | brlcad | at least for all those that have tested so far |
| 16:03.35 | brlcad | it's about 2-4% slower, but that seems to scale all the way down to low framerates and high ones, so it's pretty constant |
| 16:04.13 | brlcad | about a half-dozen folks have tested so far, I spent some time profiling and optimizing |
| 16:04.40 | Tupone | I wonder if is that easy to backport it, and test accurately |
| 16:06.02 | brlcad | oof, that'd be tricky |
| 16:06.41 | brlcad | along with the new font manager was a bunch of other changes throughout all of the menus and HUD since the font metrics were different |
| 16:07.12 | brlcad | the game contexts should now scale appropriately to just about any reasonable aspect ratio or display size smoothly |
| 16:08.27 | Tupone | I'm still very doubtfull on it being even 2% slower. It should not be, maybe only at startup |
| 16:09.41 | brlcad | it's not just startup, it's pretty constant/consistent and repeatable |
| 16:10.07 | Tupone | well, then I don't get why |
| 16:10.22 | brlcad | why it's slower or why it's not even more slower? |
| 16:10.38 | Tupone | why it is slower |
| 16:11.10 | brlcad | ah, well profiling seemed to indicate that it was just the additional calling overhead through ftgl and freetype |
| 16:11.35 | brlcad | no particular routine was expensive, but there are like 10 levels of abstraction |
| 16:11.46 | Tupone | freetype is only called for each new character not in the cache I got |
| 16:12.09 | brlcad | yes, but for every character, it has to look up the glyph |
| 16:12.37 | brlcad | that glyph lookup is about 10 calls deep in itself, as well as the lookup being a mildly expensive hash function |
| 16:13.07 | brlcad | I accounted for some of that by auto-indexing characters 0->127 so it's O(1) lookup time, but there's still the 10 layer callstack |
| 16:13.30 | *** join/#bzflag KTL (n=KTL@kotnet-149.kulnet.kuleuven.be) |
| 16:13.31 | brlcad | which (hopefully) optimized build will take care of through inlining |
| 16:13.40 | brlcad | i did not test optimized, only debug unoptimized |
| 16:13.42 | Tupone | hmm, glyph lookup to find what? if that character is in the texture it does not need. Or, more possible, I lost something in the reading |
| 16:14.41 | Tupone | well, I definitely need more reading |
| 16:14.51 | brlcad | it looks up what the character is, like 'a', which it doesn't just directly store -- to just find the glyph, it does a hash table lookup using the character set along with some hashing function |
| 16:15.19 | brlcad | freetype does quite a bit more than just character->texture |
| 16:15.33 | Tupone | ahh, yeah |
| 16:15.36 | brlcad | presumably needed in order to support other languages |
| 16:15.37 | Tupone | kerning |
| 16:15.41 | brlcad | and kerning |
| 16:15.50 | brlcad | the kerning function was also a little expensive |
| 16:16.13 | brlcad | but then I also optimized that, made it precompute all kerning combinations for ascii for each face |
| 16:16.33 | Tupone | so if we use a fixed size font it should go faster |
| 16:16.38 | brlcad | (which ends up using about 2MB of main memory, but it goes faster) |
| 16:17.26 | brlcad | i'm saying, I already accounted for that as well, it's a O(1) lookup table for every ascii char to every other ascii char for kerning |
| 16:18.03 | brlcad | it's still got the call stack (on every single string) to traverse, though, and ends up being ever so slightly slower |
| 16:18.25 | brlcad | no matter how you cut it, that's work that it was not doing before |
| 16:18.39 | Tupone | well, that mean tha we cannot convert it in kana or whatever is called |
| 16:18.42 | brlcad | optimized "should" take care of it, but like I said I haven't tested optimized |
| 16:19.31 | brlcad | we could do kana now -- it just will do the calls that freetype usually makes |
| 16:20.09 | Tupone | so the look up table will not be used, or it will become a very very huge table? |
| 16:20.18 | brlcad | if the character code is less than 128, it uses the glyph index table and the kerning lookup table, if not, it computes them directly like it always used to |
| 16:20.27 | Tupone | qhh great |
| 16:20.36 | Tupone | that was an ahh :) |
| 16:20.52 | brlcad | yeah, it was just a lil hack for ascii since that's presently 100% of what we display |
| 16:20.58 | brlcad | and just lower ascii |
| 16:21.05 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * r14701 10/trunk/bzflag/src/3D/FontManager.cxx: quell warning |
| 16:21.45 | Tupone | why then not use a perfect hast table for them? (I never used it) |
| 16:21.49 | Tupone | hash |
| 16:22.08 | brlcad | what do you mean? |
| 16:22.40 | Tupone | gperf , maybe is not a table |
| 16:22.46 | brlcad | a lookup into an index table is a perfect hash :) |
| 16:23.14 | Tupone | ahh not an hash then, I thought I read hash |
| 16:23.30 | brlcad | freetype uses a hash that they compute |
| 16:23.49 | brlcad | I avoided that by precomputing the hash values, and just using an index table |
| 16:24.23 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM (n=JeffM@unaffiliated/jeffm) |
| 16:24.43 | brlcad | even with all those optimizations, we're talking about less than 3% or so of the run-time |
| 16:24.46 | Tupone | I wonder if the benefit of having it precomputed goes against the effective use of a cache for the modern CPU |
| 16:25.00 | Tupone | well, the oldest modern |
| 16:25.06 | Tupone | the one with low cache |
| 16:26.56 | brlcad | eh, it's less work knowing 42->17263 vs computing hash(42)->17263 every single time ... |
| 16:27.14 | brlcad | it can cache the lookup table for that matter too |
| 16:27.49 | brlcad | regardless, feel free to profile, I'm sure there's more that can be squeezed out of it :) |
| 16:28.27 | brlcad | i spent several days though and got it to a "good enough" state, I feel .. especially given the enhancement of how much more crisp it looks now |
| 16:29.10 | Tupone | I need a backport before :/ |
| 16:29.20 | brlcad | that'd take weeks |
| 16:29.22 | Tupone | I just come home today |
| 16:56.22 | *** join/#bzflag TD-Linux (n=TD-Linux@about/essy/indecisive/TD-Linux) |
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| 18:10.45 | brlcad | hmm |
| 18:12.28 | Tupone | hmm? |
| 18:12.56 | brlcad | nuthun, just testing something :) |
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| 18:44.20 | ts | Hmm, for me the new text looks all "unsharp" and the individual chars have a different height |
| 18:53.07 | blast007 | ts: screenie? |
| 18:55.21 | ts | getting repeatedly disconnected..hard to upload |
| 19:02.22 | ts | Compare bzfi0383.png in my home dir to bzfi0348.png |
| 19:05.36 | blast007 | ts: ...your home directory? |
| 19:06.28 | ts | yes, at my.bzflag.org |
| 19:06.50 | ts | http://my.bzflag.org/~ts/ |
| 19:09.52 | blast007 | hmm, fun |
| 19:12.21 | ts | Do you see it? |
| 19:14.50 | blast007 | yeah |
| 19:19.38 | *** join/#bzflag FarkSimmons (n=chatzill@24-178-110-164.dhcp.stbr.ga.charter.com) |
| 19:20.02 | FarkSimmons | how is the summer of love coming along? |
| 19:21.33 | Macrosoft | love? |
| 19:21.50 | FarkSimmons | love, code, whatever |
| 19:21.52 | FarkSimmons | heh heh |
| 19:21.58 | FarkSimmons | anyone watching the sci-fi channel? |
| 19:22.06 | Macrosoft | summer of whatever? |
| 19:22.14 | blast007 | sounds like my summer |
| 19:23.08 | FarkSimmons | yeah my summer has been pretty mjuch the summer of hate |
| 19:23.17 | FarkSimmons | hate hate and more hate |
| 19:23.19 | Macrosoft | there's been no love in my summer for the last 5 years |
| 19:23.29 | FarkSimmons | the haters cant seem to leave me alone and just love |
| 19:23.40 | Macrosoft | ...its the summer of loners |
| 19:23.45 | FarkSimmons | sci-fi channel anyo9ne? |
| 19:23.50 | FarkSimmons | pretty cool stuff today |
| 19:23.56 | FarkSimmons | or weird depends on how you look at it |
| 19:23.59 | FarkSimmons | heh hhe |
| 19:24.11 | FarkSimmons | changed my perl program to python today |
| 19:24.16 | Macrosoft | no, doctor who already came on yesterday, twas awesome |
| 19:24.23 | FarkSimmons | it does a lot of things that are going to be mind-blowing |
| 19:24.45 | Macrosoft | FarkSimmons: what does? doctor who or python? |
| 19:24.46 | FarkSimmons | oh |
| 19:24.52 | FarkSimmons | did you watch dr. strange? |
| 19:24.59 | FarkSimmons | yeah cant beat that |
| 19:25.05 | FarkSimmons | anyone says they can has never seen it |
| 19:25.27 | FarkSimmons | those shows are magnificent making me float upward |
| 19:25.31 | FarkSimmons | and all that rot |
| 19:25.43 | FarkSimmons | dont think i'll ever write in perl again |
| 19:25.50 | FarkSimmons | not me not one more time |
| 19:25.52 | Macrosoft | buoyancy problems, eh? |
| 19:25.53 | FarkSimmons | waste of tme |
| 19:26.00 | *** join/#bzflag Soraya_ (i=439e755b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/zeebrothers.net/x-d321bdceecc6de9e) |
| 19:26.01 | *** part/#bzflag Soraya_ (i=439e755b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/zeebrothers.net/x-d321bdceecc6de9e) |
| 19:26.16 | FarkSimmons | soraya has left the stinking building |
| 19:26.20 | FarkSimmons | hah hah |
| 19:26.25 | FarkSimmons | kinda like elvis i guess |
| 19:26.56 | Macrosoft | FarkSimmons: jeff must not be here, otherwise we would have been told off already |
| 19:27.16 | FarkSimmons | who would tell you guys off? |
| 19:27.28 | Macrosoft | i meant you and me |
| 19:27.38 | Macrosoft | ...for being off topic and such |
| 19:27.48 | FarkSimmons | oh sorry |
| 19:27.54 | FarkSimmons | wont do that anymore |
| 19:27.59 | FarkSimmons | just had a lot of stuff happen in the last few days |
| 19:28.09 | FarkSimmons | sucks to have it all happen at once |
| 19:28.14 | FarkSimmons | but i'lll get off of it |
| 19:28.33 | Macrosoft | it doesnt bother me, say what you ant |
| 19:28.37 | Macrosoft | *want |
| 19:28.59 | FarkSimmons | nah but i dont want to get the other fellas upset |
| 19:29.11 | FarkSimmons | they have come to my rescue time and again |
| 19:29.20 | Macrosoft | you wont. jeff's the one with a short temper |
| 19:29.57 | FarkSimmons | well Jeff is a good guy |
| 19:30.14 | FarkSimmons | dude has helped me out tremendously |
| 19:30.23 | FarkSimmons | so... any way this game is going to branch? |
| 19:30.28 | FarkSimmons | and get off the LGPL? |
| 19:30.41 | Macrosoft | branch to what? |
| 19:30.49 | FarkSimmons | maybe a bsd license |
| 19:31.02 | FarkSimmons | we are going to do some very magnificent things very soon |
| 19:31.12 | FarkSimmons | for the pythonian server |
| 19:31.16 | FarkSimmons | insane stuff |
| 19:31.29 | Macrosoft | pythonian? |
| 19:31.41 | Macrosoft | isnt that a swear word :p |
| 19:31.54 | FarkSimmons | no |
| 19:32.00 | FarkSimmons | good heavens no |
| 19:32.03 | FarkSimmons | it's a name of blessing |
| 19:32.05 | FarkSimmons | :-) |
| 19:32.32 | FarkSimmons | we're going to start opening up for free servers |
| 19:32.33 | Macrosoft | i'll believe that when i see it |
| 19:32.47 | FarkSimmons | free hardware and network connections for anyone who wants to register |
| 19:32.58 | FarkSimmons | free servers basically |
| 19:33.01 | Macrosoft | what about bots? |
| 19:33.05 | FarkSimmons | finally going to make it open |
| 19:33.20 | FarkSimmons | hmmm |
| 19:33.26 | FarkSimmons | that'll be up to the server owners |
| 19:33.31 | FarkSimmons | if they want bots they can do that |
| 19:34.04 | blast007 | even if the game branched, you can't necessarily change the license |
| 19:34.11 | FarkSimmons | yeah true |
| 19:34.20 | FarkSimmons | it would be nice if it was bsd though |
| 19:34.24 | FarkSimmons | dont you think so? |
| 19:34.24 | blast007 | why? :) |
| 19:34.44 | FarkSimmons | that way anyone can do with their copy of it whatever they wanted to |
| 19:34.54 | FarkSimmons | make it propietary.. do it |
| 19:35.01 | FarkSimmons | make it public domain... do it |
| 19:35.11 | Macrosoft | i already do what i want with it |
| 19:35.21 | Constitution | prepare for a lawsuit, then |
| 19:35.26 | blast007 | can a BSD licensed app be linked to LGPL libraries? |
| 19:35.27 | FarkSimmons | but not from a license standpoint you cannot |
| 19:35.30 | Macrosoft | i make changes to the server |
| 19:35.31 | FarkSimmons | no |
| 19:35.39 | FarkSimmons | blast007: no you cant do that |
| 19:35.48 | blast007 | then you'd have to rip bzflag a new one ;) |
| 19:36.08 | FarkSimmons | for it to be bsd, you'd have to have its dependent libraries be bsd too |
| 19:36.22 | FarkSimmons | i think there's only one library it's dependent on |
| 19:36.34 | FarkSimmons | im sure that one is LGPL |
| 19:36.47 | Macrosoft | curl, sdl |
| 19:36.53 | FarkSimmons | yeah |
| 19:36.59 | FarkSimmons | adns |
| 19:37.02 | FarkSimmons | etc... |
| 19:38.02 | FarkSimmons | a lot of those things can be reversed engineered though |
| 19:38.37 | FarkSimmons | and the resulting libraries be made BSD |
| 19:38.51 | FarkSimmons | sdl will be tough heh heh |
| 19:39.06 | blast007 | yeah, because the admins want to waste time making their own SDL |
| 19:39.09 | blast007 | devs* |
| 19:39.18 | Macrosoft | FarkSimmons: *</rant> |
| 19:41.40 | TD-Linux | I was working on a free server thingy, but I got kinda sidetracked. |
| 19:41.58 | FarkSimmons | gotcha |
| 19:42.37 | FarkSimmons | as far as the bots go... why are people so hostile to them? |
| 19:43.06 | Macrosoft | because bots suck at playing |
| 19:43.20 | Macrosoft | ... they arent good opponents |
| 19:43.20 | blast007 | FTGL is LGPL too |
| 19:43.45 | FarkSimmons | oh... why dont people get upset at the developers? |
| 19:43.51 | FarkSimmons | since theyre the ones who made them |
| 19:44.11 | Macrosoft | the developers arent the ones putting them on the servers, its the owners |
| 19:44.49 | Macrosoft | ...and because bot servers scam the list |
| 19:44.54 | TD-Linux | when you have real players, why would you want bots? |
| 19:45.11 | TD-Linux | they are mostly intended for playing a single-player game on a private server, but they aren't really good enough for that |
| 19:45.28 | blast007 | thus the term "-solo" |
| 19:48.13 | CBG | FarkSimmons: people get pissed because YOU place your server higher than most of the other 200 hundred servers by adding bots. |
| 19:48.20 | CBG | It's a cheap way of getting more players on your server, even though it happens to be one of the worst servers out there. |
| 19:48.33 | Macrosoft | *burn* |
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| 20:24.51 | FarkSimmons | you guys are just a few of many who have an opinion |
| 20:24.53 | FarkSimmons | :-) |
| 20:25.57 | FarkSimmons | <Macrosoft>.attitude = immature |
| 20:26.26 | FarkSimmons | ive said once... i'll say it again... there is no brilliance to be found on IRC |
| 20:26.28 | FarkSimmons | <sigh> |
| 20:26.54 | JeffM | who was that? |
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