| 00:00.00 | Tupone | there are 2 </body></body> :) not that this is related to your problem |
| 00:00.13 | view | heh |
| 00:01.32 | view | my IP didn't change, but I updated it in the no-ip updater, and still no help |
| 00:02.07 | view | woops, I think I may have found the issue. |
| 00:02.54 | view | duh, I forgot to update the port the server is on. |
| 00:03.24 | view | the router cleared the list of ports forwarded, |
| 00:11.08 | *** join/#bzflag Gnurdux (n=gnurdux@c-69-251-252-148.hsd1.md.comcast.net) |
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| 00:11.58 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o JeffM2501] by ChanServ |
| 00:23.49 | spldart | Is the new bot logic I'm seeing real??? BZRobots??? |
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| 00:43.09 | Theme97 | spldart: BZRobots? |
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| 00:53.15 | brlcad | spldart: hum? |
| 00:53.26 | brlcad | spldart: hum? |
| 00:55.04 | brlcad | oop |
| 01:06.01 | view | christ, my monitor wire is stuck in place, I can't unscrew it |
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| 01:26.53 | bz01 | character/#coolness |
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| 01:48.26 | *** join/#bzflag Pimpi (n=frank@gondolin.pimpi.org) |
| 01:48.31 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03atupone 07v2_0_cs_branch * 10bzflag/src/bzflag/ (6 files): Adding joystick support from CS |
| 02:03.23 | *** join/#bzflag menotume (n=George@pdpc/supporter/active/menotume) |
| 02:03.23 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v menotume] by ChanServ |
| 02:03.42 | menotume | hellos zoo members ! |
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| 02:12.18 | spldart | OMG!!! |
| 02:12.32 | menotume | what? where ? |
| 02:12.34 | spldart | And one of the guys who could appreciate it most just left..... |
| 02:12.40 | spldart | I had an epiphany |
| 02:12.49 | menotume | is it contagious ? |
| 02:12.50 | a_meteorite | a what? |
| 02:13.49 | spldart | The measure of an individual's intelligence is based primarily on 'Seed Control'! This universal truth explains the declination of intelligence generation to generation!!!! |
| 02:14.05 | spldart | And yes.... this user.... tanker.... is drunk. |
| 02:26.43 | *** join/#bzflag bz45 (n=4cb23482@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 02:27.12 | bz45 | character/#BZFlag |
| 02:28.00 | bz45 | does anybody know how to load a world file into the bzflag game |
| 02:29.54 | bz45 | does anybody know how to load a world file into bzflag |
| 02:31.33 | *** join/#bzflag bz27 (n=4cb23482@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 02:31.47 | Esine | wow, just wow |
| 02:32.04 | Esine | he's connecting from bzflag.bz host but doesn't know how to check settings? |
| 02:32.42 | *** join/#bzflag bz39 (n=4cb23482@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 02:32.44 | Esine | (well ok, I came here because I didn't see something in the settings too.. but it was actually that it required a restart) |
| 02:33.09 | spldart | hehehe |
| 02:33.37 | bz39 | does anybody know how to load a bzflag world into bzflag? |
| 02:33.48 | Esine | bz39, check the menus |
| 02:33.59 | bz39 | menus? |
| 02:34.03 | Esine | menus |
| 02:34.07 | bz39 | I'm new |
| 02:34.21 | Esine | use your Brazilian-English-Brazilian dictionary |
| 02:34.43 | bz39 | what the.. what's that? |
| 02:34.49 | Esine | :s |
| 02:35.25 | bz39 | :( |
| 02:35.44 | Esine | bz39, it should say "Load world" there |
| 02:35.49 | Esine | in the game |
| 02:36.01 | Esine | if you can't find it, there are guides and tutorials on Google |
| 02:36.07 | Esine | for editing config files, etc. |
| 02:38.00 | bz39 | listen, in the game when you start the server it tells you what world file you can load, the default is "random map" |
| 02:38.13 | Esine | yes |
| 02:38.17 | Esine | you can change that there in the same plae |
| 02:38.54 | Esine | I think |
| 02:39.06 | bz39 | but when I try to to load it it won't do anything |
| 02:39.50 | bz39 | it just stays on "random map" |
| 02:41.47 | bz39 | esine, are you there |
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| 02:41.57 | Esine | sorry I cannot help you |
| 02:43.22 | bz39 | okay, i'll try to figure it out myself |
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| 03:38.35 | spldart | Oh wow.... locked deb up so bad couldn't even shutdown reboot or pull a prompt after that 8-0 |
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| 06:27.56 | view | what argument to I use to set a shot limit on a flag? |
| 06:28.37 | a_meteorite | -sl flagid # |
| 06:28.43 | a_meteorite | so.. to limit laser to 10 |
| 06:28.48 | a_meteorite | -sl L 10 |
| 06:29.30 | view | ok thanks |
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| 12:29.26 | short_circuit | ~karma a_meteorite++ |
| 12:29.26 | ibot | a_meteorite++ has neutral karma |
| 12:29.47 | short_circuit | ~a_meteroite++ |
| 12:29.53 | short_circuit | oops |
| 12:30.03 | short_circuit | ~a_meteorite |
| 12:30.09 | ibot | a_meteorite does many cool things, including maintaining BZFX and haunting the BZBB. He also does C++ and PHP on the side. |
| 12:30.11 | short_circuit | ~a_meteorite++ |
| 12:30.25 | short_circuit | got it |
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| 15:50.26 | Manu | DTRemenak: someome is asking for your project ;) http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=10234 |
| 15:56.09 | CBG | What is with people who load up a web page, don't read anything on it, then have to ask what it is about on the forum? :/ |
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| 16:17.33 | spldart | Symptom of the modern pushbutton societies? |
| 16:19.35 | *** join/#bzflag TD-Linux (n=TD-Linux@24-159-197-22.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com) |
| 16:20.02 | ts | Manu: I think such posts should be instantly deleted |
| 16:35.10 | Manu | :) |
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| 18:44.45 | donny_baker | the "new" wiki is available to be edited... |
| 18:44.57 | donny_baker | the site is my.bzflag.org/wiki |
| 18:45.19 | CBG | Can I create a Munchkin article citing a variety of example munchkins? :) |
| 18:45.49 | inchworm | only if you put your sources |
| 18:45.54 | donny_baker | you can always create it.... ;) |
| 18:45.56 | blast007 | lol |
| 18:46.51 | donny_baker | the site is mostly empty... ok completely empty only 8 articles |
| 18:47.22 | donny_baker | working on adding some pages today |
| 18:47.23 | JeffM2501 | nice |
| 18:47.49 | JeffM2501 | I'll have to find my bzedit tutorials and move them in |
| 18:48.04 | donny_baker | it has a spam filter so hopefully that will allow us to keep it open to anonymous editing |
| 18:48.33 | donny_baker | logo is ugly ... for now... but i'm working on that |
| 18:48.38 | inchworm | can you tie the spam filter to remove people from the master ban list? |
| 18:48.55 | JeffM2501 | talk to saturos, he can make you a nice logo |
| 18:48.59 | donny_baker | hmmm... probably with a little work |
| 18:49.00 | inchworm | or would that even be a usefull idea |
| 18:49.05 | JeffM2501 | inchworm what? |
| 18:49.25 | donny_baker | yeah... saturos and winxp have both been contacted |
| 18:49.28 | inchworm | have the wiki disable posts from ip's that have been banned on the masterban |
| 18:49.35 | donny_baker | just waiting, they are both pretty busy |
| 18:49.36 | JeffM2501 | ahh |
| 18:49.40 | DTRemenak | masterban is game only, not web services |
| 18:49.42 | JeffM2501 | ok, that makes sense :) |
| 18:49.45 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 18:49.51 | DTRemenak | better would be to read from the bzbb banlist |
| 18:49.53 | JeffM2501 | web has it's own larger ban list :) |
| 18:50.06 | inchworm | hehe, nvm then |
| 18:50.17 | spldart | oooOOOooo very nice |
| 18:50.31 | donny_baker | i'll look at that ban list and see if I can make it work |
| 18:50.43 | JeffM2501 | I'm gonna start a map making article for ya :) |
| 18:52.17 | donny_baker | jeffm2501: :) thanks... I tried... it satrted get blender... open blander... use blender tuts... |
| 18:52.36 | JeffM2501 | I'm going to make an overview page for "map editing" |
| 18:52.46 | JeffM2501 | then have it point to pages about all the difrent ways to edit maps |
| 18:52.53 | JeffM2501 | so all options are covered |
| 18:53.07 | JeffM2501 | and a page that has the bzw man stuff for format docs |
| 18:56.23 | donny_baker | great.. good luck |
| 19:06.34 | JeffM2501 | what sounds better? map making? or just maping? |
| 19:07.57 | DTRemenak | map making (imo) |
| 19:08.10 | DTRemenak | but if you go for the other, it's "mapping" :) |
| 19:09.03 | JeffM2501 | I did the former |
| 19:09.05 | spldart | :) |
| 19:11.47 | donny_baker | im working on server permissions and client command pages right now |
| 19:13.48 | DTRemenak | is there any size limit on protocol messages? |
| 19:16.44 | DTRemenak | ah, MaxPacketLen |
| 19:20.29 | ts | Hrm, it stumbles my username :/ |
| 19:20.57 | ts | donny_baker: Can we see the old wiki somewhere? |
| 19:21.05 | *** join/#bzflag Theme97 (n=Theme97@about/essy/phpwriter/Theme97) |
| 19:21.18 | JeffM2501 | old wiki should be on SF |
| 19:21.22 | JeffM2501 | and the main page |
| 19:22.52 | donny_baker | old wiki should be at http://bzflag.org/wiki |
| 19:23.19 | brlcad | should migrate the old wiki data over so it can be eventually replaced |
| 19:25.49 | brlcad | gdamn the old one is painful in comparison.. |
| 19:25.59 | donny_baker | yeah, that is on my list of things to do |
| 19:26.08 | brlcad | took me 5 minutes to get to the freaking edit panel |
| 19:26.27 | JeffM2501 | anyone got a screenshot of linux bzedit ? |
| 19:26.28 | donny_baker | and the syntax is ugly on it too |
| 19:27.24 | donny_baker | ts: yeah... i hate that it makes everything have an initial cap ;) |
| 19:27.36 | blast007 | the old one got hit by spam a few days ago |
| 19:27.54 | donny_baker | it didn't like the _ in my username very much either |
| 19:28.22 | A-Delusion | funny.. I go to the login page, info auto-completes.. but there's no user by that name |
| 19:28.28 | JeffM2501 | ibot spell orignaly |
| 19:28.45 | ts | Are we doing groups in wiki? |
| 19:29.08 | brlcad | groups? |
| 19:29.21 | brlcad | bzfs groups? no.. |
| 19:29.57 | ts | Putting wiki user registrations into special groups, like a member of one group can do more than the other registered users |
| 19:31.24 | JeffM2501 | how do you do the "this is a stub" and "citation needed" stuff? |
| 19:31.44 | brlcad | everything is a "stub" by default |
| 19:31.54 | JeffM2501 | k |
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| 19:32.30 | brlcad | what's pretty cool though, is that it seems to work well brining in the moinmoin wiki syntax cleanly |
| 19:33.27 | brlcad | e.g., http://my.bzflag.org/wiki/index.php/Logging |
| 19:33.27 | brlcad | didn't modify a single line |
| 19:33.51 | brlcad | ~donny_baker++ |
| 19:33.59 | donny_baker | i think I added a stub {{stub}} if not ill add it |
| 19:35.22 | JeffM2501 | there dosn't seem to be a citation needed one ether |
| 19:35.28 | ts | pyBZEdit supports 2.0 features? |
| 19:35.34 | ts | Is that really true? |
| 19:35.43 | JeffM2501 | it does some |
| 19:35.46 | JeffM2501 | well one |
| 19:35.49 | JeffM2501 | IIRC it did groups |
| 19:36.06 | JeffM2501 | or maybe the world object |
| 19:36.19 | donny_baker | stub is there add {{stub}} to your page... to edit what {{stub}} says or looks like got to Template:Stub |
| 19:36.19 | ts | hmm |
| 19:36.54 | donny_baker | editing Template:Stub changes all instances of {{stub}} on every page |
| 19:37.04 | donny_baker | kind of like an include |
| 19:37.32 | donny_baker | when you istall mediawiki... it is truley empty |
| 19:37.58 | donny_baker | i have been working on getting and making sure all of the help pages worked correctly |
| 19:38.09 | donny_baker | and adding templates as i needed them |
| 19:38.11 | JeffM2501 | anyone remember when purple_cow started bzedit? |
| 19:38.20 | DTRemenak | long, long ago |
| 19:38.25 | donny_baker | so any templates you think we need feel free |
| 19:38.54 | ts | ohloh maybe knows..I'm searching |
| 19:39.17 | JeffM2501 | it wasn't in cvs |
| 19:39.20 | JeffM2501 | when he started it |
| 19:39.21 | JeffM2501 | IIRC |
| 19:39.24 | ts | oh |
| 19:40.50 | DTRemenak | May 2000? |
| 19:41.07 | ts | Where does the flag list belong to? I don't know where to put it |
| 19:41.22 | brlcad | donny_baker: are there any default templates? |
| 19:41.40 | DTRemenak | wasn't in cvs until June 2001 |
| 19:41.59 | JeffM2501 | ahh 2k, thanks |
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| 19:43.25 | donny_baker | [[Category:Server]] and [[Category:Client]] call the page Flags |
| 19:43.45 | donny_baker | just the ones i added... nothing is default |
| 19:45.28 | donny_baker | im looking for the page that lists them |
| 19:45.41 | ts | JeffM2501, How about new a category "Gameplay"? |
| 19:45.43 | JeffM2501 | good lord, that actualy looks good |
| 19:45.51 | JeffM2501 | ts, whatever floats your boat :) |
| 19:46.35 | JeffM2501 | http://my.bzflag.org/wiki/index.php/BZEdit |
| 19:47.56 | donny_baker | brlcad: http://my.bzflag.org/wiki/index.php/Category:Style_and_Navigation |
| 19:52.44 | brlcad | ahh, so none of the citation and verfication templates.. |
| 19:52.56 | ts | Eeek, no more pure HTML |
| 19:53.26 | ts | Flag list is busted |
| 19:53.34 | brlcad | JeffM2501: typing on the fly? :) "Capitan Proton" |
| 19:53.59 | JeffM2501 | oops |
| 19:54.38 | JeffM2501 | too late :) |
| 19:54.55 | brlcad | maybe for you.. i'm done :) |
| 19:55.17 | JeffM2501 | it got my version :) |
| 19:55.22 | JeffM2501 | I took out the space |
| 19:55.38 | brlcad | hrm, it was supposed to conflict |
| 19:55.53 | brlcad | unless what you opened was already my fixed version |
| 20:00.13 | donny_baker | brlcad: i will go out and get them |
| 20:00.35 | brlcad | ts: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Table |
| 20:00.42 | brlcad | you can convert them ;) |
| 20:01.22 | brlcad | donny_baker: I started to.. but then noticed that wikipedia has a ton of subcategories for citatsion that we probably don't need |
| 20:01.30 | ts | brlcad, yes, I'm already doing it (but I had to cry at least once) |
| 20:01.52 | brlcad | probably just need a simplified {{cite}} from the Template:Fact |
| 20:02.29 | brlcad | my guess is we'll just need something to say stuff isn't verified yet where some claim is made |
| 20:04.54 | brlcad | ts: although wikimedia help page seems to indicate that <table> elements are actually supported |
| 20:05.48 | ts | brlcad, they are supported but not all possible HTML-constructs inside |
| 20:05.56 | ts | Or the preview is completly wrong |
| 20:25.12 | donny_baker | brlcad: {{cite}} added... need to test it depended n 5 or 6 others and I think I have them all |
| 20:32.12 | brlcad | donny_baker: that's what I was referring to.. as to whether we actually *need* all the others for our purposes |
| 20:32.36 | Manu | hola brlcad :) |
| 20:32.40 | brlcad | ciao Manu |
| 20:32.52 | *** join/#bzflag spldart (n=troublem@cpe-24-28-107-184.houston.res.rr.com) |
| 20:34.18 | donny_baker | yeah... i only imported cite and it's dependencies... the others start to get pretty specialized |
| 20:34.35 | donny_baker | we probably don't need them at this time |
| 20:37.23 | ts | Hmm, there are really a lot of flag suggestions :& |
| 20:38.13 | brlcad | donny_baker: sushi! |
| 20:38.27 | brlcad | ts: yes.. and plenty of good ones |
| 20:38.43 | brlcad | that's why hearing new flag ideas aren't usually top of the priority list ;) |
| 20:40.57 | ts | yeah, I like the oil slick thingy for example :D |
| 20:43.31 | spldart | poop.... |
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| 20:43.45 | ts | spldart, What? |
| 20:43.56 | JeffM2501 | didn't some page rehost my bzedit tutorials? |
| 20:44.19 | spldart | the whole new flag ideas being down the priority list... I can understand though.. but thought I had some good ones :)... I'm done :) |
| 20:45.33 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: http://bzflag.org/wiki/BZEdit_20Tutorial ? |
| 20:46.05 | JeffM2501 | cool, thanks |
| 20:50.52 | ts | I feel like I should write a bot for the transformation rather than doing it by hand :( |
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| 20:51.39 | JeffM2501 | donny_baker if I want to upload images to be in the articles, how do I do that? |
| 20:51.47 | JeffM2501 | is there a place to put them? |
| 20:51.54 | JeffM2501 | or does the wiki do the upload? |
| 20:53.49 | brlcad | JeffM2501: http://my.bzflag.org/wiki/index.php/Image:Somefile.jpg replace Somefile.jpg with your image name |
| 20:54.04 | brlcad | then it gives you the option of uploading it |
| 20:55.44 | JeffM2501 | thanks |
| 20:56.14 | L4m3r | arg, can we move the -solo bots completely to the server side for 2.2? abuse is getting annoying |
| 20:56.43 | DTRemenak | ~pw |
| 20:56.53 | ibot | patches welcome is, like, a common response by maintainers of Open Source products. It's roughly means "We don't have much time on our hands, so if you write that feature and send it to us we will likely roll it in. If you don't have the time to write it, we don't either. Stop asking for it." |
| 20:56.53 | JeffM2501 | L4m3r no |
| 20:56.53 | JeffM2501 | not yet |
| 20:56.53 | JeffM2501 | at least |
| 20:57.04 | JeffM2501 | the server side bot stuff isn't meant as a replacement for -solo |
| 20:57.18 | L4m3r | pr at least put a hard coded limit for -solo bots |
| 20:58.05 | L4m3r | we had 92 players on a server a few minutes ago because some moron brought in an asston of bots |
| 20:58.07 | DTRemenak | if they want players to have the ability to run bots on their servers, they can set the permissions such that players can spawn SSBs at will. |
| 20:58.21 | JeffM2501 | don't you have a nobot setting? |
| 20:58.55 | L4m3r | it's generally not used because we like to have autopilot |
| 20:59.12 | L4m3r | and apparently whoever ran the server was not aware of the bot kicker plugin |
| 20:59.15 | DTRemenak | I have yet to hear a convincing argument for why the -solo bots should remain in the client after equivalent bots are available from the server |
| 20:59.45 | JeffM2501 | if they are equivelant, AND built by default, then no, there is no reason |
| 20:59.53 | L4m3r | wouldn't that also save bandwidth? |
| 20:59.56 | DTRemenak | I believe that should be a goal |
| 21:00.03 | DTRemenak | L4m3r: no, not really |
| 21:00.03 | JeffM2501 | it's good to have goals :) |
| 21:00.16 | L4m3r | I mean, with a lot of them |
| 21:00.18 | DTRemenak | bots share the player connection now |
| 21:00.43 | DTRemenak | outbound traffic is the same for one player as it is for one player + many bots |
| 21:00.46 | L4m3r | yes, but it's still more tanks to keep track of on the other end |
| 21:00.55 | L4m3r | so it would be more inbound traffic, yes? |
| 21:01.09 | DTRemenak | inbound is not a problem for the vast majority of server setups |
| 21:01.14 | L4m3r | true |
| 21:01.15 | spldart | w0rd |
| 21:01.15 | DTRemenak | inbound traffic is tiny |
| 21:01.39 | L4m3r | well then, time for brunch. |
| 21:01.48 | DTRemenak | bots lag servers up because the server has to send the relayed packets out to all the other human players |
| 21:01.54 | DTRemenak | and SSBs will do the same thing |
| 21:10.25 | brlcad | DTRemenak: if you're already decided, then pretty much any argument would fail to be a convincing argument |
| 21:10.47 | DTRemenak | it's not impossible to change my mind :) |
| 21:11.02 | DTRemenak | there exists a possibility that I have not heard the convincing argument |
| 21:11.41 | DTRemenak | if you have one, let me know :) |
| 21:11.42 | brlcad | hm, connection is "mostly" shared, iirc .. there's a tiny overhead, but certainly not linear |
| 21:12.26 | brlcad | nah, I'm not for or against, it's mildly moot point other than where the logic is actually running from |
| 21:12.37 | DTRemenak | in most cases it is entirely linear. playerupdates are only sent once, msgmessages should never be sent to bots, etc |
| 21:13.07 | brlcad | one thing for the server to say "you're allowed to only run # bots" versus client asking server to run # bots for it |
| 21:13.20 | brlcad | i meant linear in the sense that 4 bots would mean 4+1 net usage over just 1 |
| 21:13.30 | DTRemenak | sure, it's possible to keep it client-side. it just seems like additional complexity. |
| 21:13.59 | brlcad | the alternative is hardware limited |
| 21:14.56 | brlcad | running X bots on the server for Y players, example .. if the bots are doing anything intensive (which ideally they will be some day), you wouldn't be able to run that many on a server |
| 21:15.23 | brlcad | I could see having a bot that consumes all of my local machine's resources (cpu-wise) with just mild AI concepts put to practice |
| 21:15.35 | ts | ~spell powerfull |
| 21:15.57 | brlcad | .bz would never be able to handle what I have in mind at least for even one bot |
| 21:16.23 | spldart | ~spell super_saiyan |
| 21:16.39 | JeffM2501 | there we go BZEditWin32 is decently fleshed out |
| 21:16.40 | brlcad | not to mention the benefits of network testing stand-alone bots connecting to a server |
| 21:17.19 | DTRemenak | brlcad: none of that applies to -solo bots |
| 21:17.52 | DTRemenak | they don't simulate network activity accurately |
| 21:18.07 | DTRemenak | they don't consume many resources, and they run on the client, which DOES consume many resources, just for rendering |
| 21:20.13 | brlcad | why wouldn't it apply to solo bots? |
| 21:20.23 | DTRemenak | as I just said |
| 21:20.24 | brlcad | if I want to mod the client with some nifty ai approach |
| 21:20.47 | brlcad | -solo is the immediate/easy way to do it right now |
| 21:20.53 | DTRemenak | then you can just as easily mod the server. or you can still mod the client, via autopilot framework or bzrobots. |
| 21:21.00 | brlcad | heh |
| 21:21.04 | brlcad | I can mod your server? |
| 21:21.16 | DTRemenak | you should not be running bots on my server without my permission |
| 21:21.18 | DTRemenak | :) |
| 21:21.34 | brlcad | sure, but then tha'ts just a server access/configuration issue |
| 21:21.38 | DTRemenak | and yes, you may mod my server if you would like to test some AI stuff :) |
| 21:22.14 | brlcad | we don't do any real ai stuff at the moment, though the kids in columbia were dabbling a little |
| 21:22.29 | brlcad | if we did, the resources would be considerably more intenst |
| 21:23.50 | brlcad | I mean, both make sense.. it makes sense to have "server-provided" enemies, like any game might provide for filler enemies or storyboarding, etc |
| 21:24.50 | brlcad | but if I want to test out "real" approaches and experiment on the public servers (that are configured as such saying they don't care or what have you), then I'm making my own client-side modifications |
| 21:25.14 | DTRemenak | that is all done through bzrobots, not the client, correct? I don't see the point in supporting both bots and interactive graphical gameplay from the same executable. |
| 21:25.24 | brlcad | bzrobots is a client :) |
| 21:25.31 | DTRemenak | it is not the client :) |
| 21:26.16 | brlcad | well, to an extent I do agree with that -- though bzrobots aren't working yet afaik |
| 21:26.26 | DTRemenak | then that should be an additional goal :) |
| 21:26.26 | brlcad | so to remove -solo would remove the capability at this point |
| 21:26.28 | *** join/#bzflag a_meteorite (n=a_meteor@unaffiliated/ameteorite/x-000000001) |
| 21:27.31 | brlcad | otherwise, the main/only benefit of -solo is a simple interface for invoking N ai players |
| 21:27.45 | brlcad | and that shared net connection (which you don't get with bzrobots) |
| 21:29.53 | DTRemenak | the first is a good reason to remove it, once we have the ability to do that server-side. the second is certainly a valid point, but I'm not sure it's worth it. a shared net connection on cpu-intensive bots doesn't get you much, you'll want to run them one per machine anyway. |
| 21:31.05 | DTRemenak | or at least one per cpu, which I suppose is not quite the same |
| 21:33.09 | JeffM2501 | how's this for the layout for a map object? |
| 21:33.19 | JeffM2501 | http://my.bzflag.org/wiki/index.php/Box |
| 21:34.31 | L4m3r | my only recommendation would be to separate the params into a list |
| 21:35.01 | JeffM2501 | fair enough |
| 21:35.04 | L4m3r | it would improve readability, especially for more complex objects |
| 21:35.10 | brlcad | one per machine may or may not be a limitation of the AI approach being tested/used .. if you could get away with more (which is certainly likely with some algorithms), then you'd likely want more |
| 21:36.17 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03bthansen * 10bzflag/plugins/ (logDetail/logDetail.cpp thiefControl/thiefControl.cpp): Fix class names so they follow the naming convention |
| 21:36.31 | brlcad | the first isn't a good reason to remove it.. having a simple interface at least isn't a good reason -- now limiting that or controlling that becomes an issue, and I would agree that the server should dictate what the limits are |
| 21:36.42 | JeffM2501 | reload it L4m3r, that better? |
| 21:37.01 | L4m3r | perfect. |
| 21:37.50 | ts | JeffM2501, I have done some work on http://my.bzflag.org/wiki/index.php/FlagList |
| 21:38.00 | DTRemenak | brlcad: correct, I would be in favor of "a simple interface for invoking N ai players", but I would prefer it not be up to the client. |
| 21:38.04 | ts | However I'm getting too sleepy now |
| 21:38.30 | JeffM2501 | cool |
| 21:38.31 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03bthansen 07v2_0branch * 10bzflag/plugins/logDetail/logDetail.cpp: Fix class names to follow the naming convention |
| 21:38.43 | ts | Do I need to do all flags from original wiki? |
| 21:38.58 | JeffM2501 | dunno |
| 21:39.46 | ts | I mean there are _a lot of flags_ and the whole table needs to be converted by hand.. |
| 21:40.06 | *** join/#bzflag TD-Linux (n=TD-Linux@24-159-197-22.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com) |
| 21:40.48 | brlcad | DTRemenak: i'd go with that too .. but I wouldn't go about it the reverse route of removing functionality first is all |
| 21:41.07 | brlcad | ts: what exactly didn't convert |
| 21:41.12 | brlcad | the table wasn't *that* complex |
| 21:42.02 | ts | The attributes in the table tag and all bgcolors in the td's, IIRC |
| 21:44.17 | brlcad | see, that's where it's twisted.. I wouldn't say SSBs are equivalent if only because of the resource utilization and networking |
| 21:45.10 | brlcad | having SSBs are good, but not a full feature replacement |
| 21:45.38 | DTRemenak | bot networking as it is now is a liability, not a feature |
| 21:46.38 | brlcad | it's both |
| 21:46.38 | DTRemenak | and resource consumption just moves from one machine to the other |
| 21:46.38 | DTRemenak | -solo bots don't consume many resources at all |
| 21:46.40 | brlcad | i've used it for network testing on many occasions |
| 21:46.54 | DTRemenak | yes, but you can't do that anymore because they share the net connection |
| 21:46.54 | brlcad | the feature is modability |
| 21:47.11 | brlcad | I can modify the client and run on public servers, I can't modify those public servers |
| 21:47.17 | DTRemenak | SSB's are more modifiable. you just have to run your own server. |
| 21:47.28 | brlcad | which is part what makes them more useless |
| 21:47.45 | DTRemenak | by running to bots on a public server, you ARE modifying someone else's server |
| 21:47.58 | brlcad | er, howso? |
| 21:48.25 | DTRemenak | if they wanted bots, they would have added them |
| 21:48.39 | DTRemenak | you're changing the play environment dramatically |
| 21:48.41 | brlcad | the same converse can be said |
| 21:48.47 | DTRemenak | which is why so many people are opposed to them |
| 21:48.49 | brlcad | if they didn't want bots, they would have prevented them |
| 21:49.03 | DTRemenak | we can't really prevent them as it is now |
| 21:49.10 | brlcad | sure we could |
| 21:49.15 | DTRemenak | the -norobots is an informational thing |
| 21:49.38 | DTRemenak | snip one line from the client and you can connect all the bots you want |
| 21:49.52 | brlcad | not guaranteed, but for those that would go around the bot flag can do that regardless and no server-side mandate is going to prevent a bot client that looks/acts like a real client |
| 21:50.35 | DTRemenak | if it acts like a real client, then more power to them. at that point it's just another player |
| 21:50.37 | brlcad | for the framework we have, there could be a server option that would limit the number of bots or outright deny all bots |
| 21:51.26 | Thumper_ | Hi guys - I have a new utility class for plugins to use to parse configuration files (called PluginConfig) defined in PluginUtils.cxx/.h |
| 21:51.39 | Thumper_ | I'd like to know where in the source tree this should live and what I have to do to make it |
| 21:51.45 | Thumper_ | available to any plugin that chooses to use it |
| 21:52.55 | L4m3r | but why bother? SSBs would be easier, cleaner, more useful for solo or network play (they can stay after you leave) |
| 21:53.21 | L4m3r | more workable for automated bot joining/parting , too |
| 21:53.25 | brlcad | L4m3r: it's not a bother, it's what we have now -- moving it to SS-only is where problems occur |
| 21:53.53 | L4m3r | but what are the problems, exactly? |
| 21:53.56 | DTRemenak | brlcad: here's what I'm seeing: we have a number of possible purposes for bots. 1. keeping a server occupied and interesting. SSBs are superior. 2. testing AI. bzrobots is superior. 3. testing network. bzrobots is superior. 4. asshattery. -solo bots are superior. |
| 21:54.10 | L4m3r | and how are they WORSE than the client-side problems? |
| 21:54.54 | brlcad | DTRemenak: I'd agree with those save for the detail that bzrobots don't really exist yet |
| 21:55.06 | DTRemenak | brlcad: pw? :) |
| 21:55.15 | brlcad | pw? |
| 21:55.18 | DTRemenak | ~pw |
| 21:55.32 | ibot | hmm... patches welcome is a common response by maintainers of Open Source products. It's roughly means "We don't have much time on our hands, so if you write that feature and send it to us we will likely roll it in. If you don't have the time to write it, we don't either. Stop asking for it." |
| 21:55.33 | brlcad | ahhh |
| 21:55.33 | brlcad | heh |
| 21:55.40 | DTRemenak | should we remove -solo before SSBs and bzrobots are complete? no. |
| 21:56.00 | blast007 | DTRemenak: do it! do it! |
| 21:56.01 | brlcad | i agree with you there ;) |
| 21:56.03 | DTRemenak | should we attempt to complete them and remove -solo? I think that would be appropriate. |
| 21:56.12 | brlcad | and with that |
| 21:56.35 | brlcad | having bzrobots be "complete" or functional is what was missing from your first claim of once SSBs were done :) |
| 21:56.42 | DTRemenak | I was under the impression that bzrobots was usable if not complete |
| 21:57.00 | brlcad | it is elsewhere, but not in CVS afaik |
| 21:57.03 | DTRemenak | ahh |
| 21:57.16 | brlcad | maybe i'm wrong, but last peek it wasn't |
| 21:57.24 | DTRemenak | so someone needs to pester whoever it was about that? :) |
| 21:58.16 | brlcad | ~someone |
| 21:58.31 | brlcad | who was that.. hmm |
| 21:58.45 | brlcad | not flash.. |
| 21:58.51 | DTRemenak | one of the a's |
| 21:58.58 | DTRemenak | amcnabb or aawright? |
| 21:59.06 | brlcad | amcnabb |
| 21:59.10 | brlcad | ~seen amcnabb |
| 21:59.35 | ibot | amcnabb <n=amcnabb@c-71-195-212-252.hsd1.ma.comcast.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #bzflag, 80d 3h 20m 59s ago, saying: 'I hate to run in and out, but I've got to go get some other stuff done. I'll be back on later today.'. |
| 21:59.56 | DTRemenak | heh |
| 21:59.57 | brlcad | that must have been a lot of other stuff |
| 22:00.02 | DTRemenak | long day :) |
| 22:00.26 | ts | I saw him weeks later in this channel |
| 22:00.44 | ts | Wanted to ask him something but right when I started to type he left |
| 22:00.54 | brlcad | hmm.. could tie in -solo to a pop-up that prompts them with a captcha for each bot and a riddle ;) |
| 22:01.48 | brlcad | yeah, amcnabb's been on since iirc, just under a different name i think |
| 22:02.09 | brlcad | could probably call him out on the mailing list |
| 22:02.25 | ts | If you find out more please tell me, I'm going to sleep now |
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| 22:32.35 | JeffM2501 | yay, bzfs command line options are done :) |
| 22:32.51 | *** join/#bzflag KTL (n=KTL@kotnet-149.kulnet.kuleuven.be) |
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| 22:40.32 | brlcad | not any more! |
| 22:40.35 | randomparticle | I've written a few lines to remove the dependence of keyboard turn dampening on frame rate. Seems to work quite well, but would need a keyboard player to test it fully. |
| 22:40.44 | randomparticle | The code is here: http://pastebin.ca/raw/362574 |
| 22:40.50 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03brlcad * 10bzflag/ (5 files in 3 dirs): (log message trimmed) |
| 22:40.50 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: add a new -botsPerIP option to bzfs to allow server ops to limit the number of |
| 22:40.50 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: bot connections that are allowed to connnect from the same IP address. this |
| 22:40.50 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: should reduce -solo client abuse (especially intrusively accidental/experimental |
| 22:40.50 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: use) as well as any other custom bots that behave by correctly identifying |
| 22:40.52 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: themselves as a bot. this probably won't fully appease the dtr, but it should |
| 22:40.54 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: help reduce abuse to at least modified clients. initial default value is to |
| 22:42.28 | randomparticle | The amount of dampening can be adjusted by setting different values of 'fps' (to mimic old behaviour at fixed framerate of fps) and 'k' (rate of convergence) |
| 22:42.38 | brlcad | heh, a powf right smack in the middle |
| 22:42.56 | brlcad | do you really need to compute a floating point power? :) |
| 22:43.23 | randomparticle | Yes, if you want behaviour similar to what happened before |
| 22:43.37 | randomparticle | but without framerate dependence, of course |
| 22:43.49 | *** join/#bzflag eTangenT (n=tangent@71-211-201-51.hlrn.qwest.net) |
| 22:44.34 | randomparticle | there may be other functions that can be used here that are less costly |
| 22:44.37 | JeffM2501 | good lord, it seems I'm a wiki editing fool :( |
| 22:44.53 | randomparticle | but that would mean that keyboard players would have to adjust their playing style |
| 22:45.49 | brlcad | i was merely referring to the cost |
| 22:46.05 | brlcad | shouldn't be a big deal here, hopefully |
| 22:47.15 | randomparticle | i was thinking the fps and k values could be config settable |
| 22:48.00 | randomparticle | at the moment people are at the mercy of their gfx cards. if they have a weak one, they may get more dampening than the really want |
| 22:48.27 | randomparticle | or if they play on different machines at different times, they end up getting different tank responses |
| 22:49.27 | randomparticle | the difference is tank feel between 50fps and 230fps, say, is absolutely huge if you use keyboard. I'm sure you know all this, btw :) |
| 22:50.05 | brlcad | you mean currently |
| 22:50.10 | brlcad | the feel is different |
| 22:50.12 | randomparticle | yes |
| 22:50.18 | brlcad | because of the flat-rated 20% dampening |
| 22:50.22 | brlcad | per frame |
| 22:50.25 | randomparticle | yep |
| 22:50.48 | brlcad | should add some bounds/minimum checks to your change and it should be good to add |
| 22:51.19 | randomparticle | great. if you like i can search for a keyboard player or two to try this |
| 22:51.36 | brlcad | so if there's a framerate of 2 for example, or 0 for that matter.. |
| 22:51.40 | randomparticle | i'm not the best judge here as i'm 100% mouse |
| 22:52.22 | randomparticle | or zero.. hmm :) |
| 22:52.34 | *** join/#bzflag Theme97_ (n=Theme97@about/essy/phpwriter/Theme97) |
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| 23:02.55 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03jeffm2501 * 10bzflag/plugins/ (7 files in 2 dirs): add torBlock |
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| 23:19.50 | CBG | ~blast007++ |
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| 23:34.28 | JeffM2501 | must... stop.. writing.. articles.... |
| 23:35.59 | Bz_Win | I won't ask |
| 23:36.06 | JeffM2501 | wiki stuff |
| 23:36.25 | JeffM2501 | it's too damned adictive |
| 23:36.36 | a_meteorite | wikipedia or the bzflag wiki? |
| 23:36.41 | JeffM2501 | the BZ one |
| 23:36.44 | a_meteorite | ah |
| 23:37.03 | a_meteorite | it'd be quite nice to have it updated |
| 23:37.24 | JeffM2501 | the new one |
| 23:37.26 | JeffM2501 | not the old one |
| 23:37.30 | a_meteorite | oh |
| 23:37.34 | JeffM2501 | old one go byebye soon |
| 23:37.35 | a_meteorite | it's not live? |
| 23:37.46 | JeffM2501 | http://my.bzflag.org/wiki/ |
| 23:38.03 | a_meteorite | ahh, very nice |
| 23:38.22 | Bz_Win | Is that the one donny_baker is working on |
| 23:38.23 | Bz_Win | ?* |
| 23:38.32 | JeffM2501 | yes |
| 23:38.35 | Bz_Win | ah |
| 23:38.36 | Bz_Win | k |
| 23:38.43 | Bz_Win | I should probably do that logo for him |
| 23:38.52 | a_meteorite | I should probably contribute pages ;) |
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| 23:51.10 | randomparticle | is powf really very expensive? |
| 23:51.17 | JeffM2501 | it can be |
| 23:51.37 | inchworm | is it a for loop someswhere? |
| 23:51.44 | Tupone | it is normally based on logarithm |
| 23:52.04 | JeffM2501 | how may times per frame is it called? |
| 23:52.14 | randomparticle | once |
| 23:52.21 | JeffM2501 | that's fine |
| 23:52.56 | randomparticle | if desired ang vel very close to current then one might just skip it and set current = desired |
| 23:53.17 | JeffM2501 | that would be a very minor optimisation |
| 23:53.20 | JeffM2501 | very minor |
| 23:53.43 | Tupone | randomparticle: how much cpu percentage you mean to save? |
| 23:54.19 | randomparticle | oh, i don't know. i don't have any idea how much it costs yet |
| 23:54.21 | Tupone | if that is bigger then 0.01 % could be good |
| 23:54.37 | randomparticle | ok |
| 23:54.39 | randomparticle | the other thing is, there is another kind of turn dampening already in bzflag - that is, in the code for the -a settings |
| 23:54.48 | *** join/#bzflag Gnurdux (n=gnurdux@c-69-251-252-148.hsd1.md.comcast.net) |
| 23:56.09 | randomparticle | the keyboard code could go in there if linear convergence is good enough |
| 23:56.10 | randomparticle | something like, if you are a kbd user, then use a default -a setting of this.. if not overriden by the server setting |
| 23:57.43 | *** join/#bzflag bz32 (n=536926f0@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 23:58.41 | randomparticle | i wrote something else for kbd users. atm, if you are pressing the left arrow key, and you press the right arrow key, the tank doesn't turn to the right until the first key is released |
| 23:59.21 | randomparticle | that makes quick direction changes a little more cumbersome than they might be |
| 23:59.58 | randomparticle | so, what you can do is have a rule for when both keys are held down at the same time: the most recently pressed key has priority |
