irclog2html for #bzflag on 20060730

`00:00.04`	`menotume`	`we need to fix ME and cheats`
`00:00.40`	`JeffM2501`	`go right ahead :)`
`00:00.43`	`uso`	`yes, lot of work to do`
`00:01.12`	`shorty114`	`ME?`
`00:01.19`	`menotume`	`no, not you`
`00:01.32`	`menotume`	`Extrem-mouse-enhancement`
`00:01.42`	`menotume`	`most who use it eventually are tagged as cheating`
`00:01.43`	`shorty114`	`don't servers have the -a flag?`
`00:01.48`	`menotume`	`that doesn't work`
`00:01.57`	`shorty114`	`hmm okay then`
`00:02.03`	`menotume`	`it helps a little`
`00:02.37`	`menotume`	`if you obs certain players, watch them 'shake' when they try to drive stright`
`00:03.03`	`menotume`	`not just back&forth quickly, or even like jitter, but i mean SHAKE`
`00:04.55`	`uso`	`menotume: yeah, they cant drive straight, but the shaking if you drive with them is part of the network settings (_angleTolerance) we discussed above`
`00:05.53`	`menotume`	`hmmm`
`00:07.43`	`*** join/#bzflag plosibot (n=bugs@216-55-160-43.dedicated.abac.net)`
`00:07.59`	`CBG`	`!bash #665792`
`00:08.01`	`plosibot`	`Bash #665792 (Rating: 36): <djbjrca> Loonietoon: what OS are you on`
`00:08.01`	`plosibot`	`Bash #665792 (Rating: 36): <Loonietoon> im not on os`
`00:08.02`	`plosibot`	`Bash #665792 (Rating: 36): <Loonietoon> isnt that mac`
`00:08.03`	`plosibot`	`Bash #665792 (Rating: 36): <Loonietoon> im windows`
`00:08.05`	`Mr_Molez`	`i dont see ME as a problem . anyone can do it so its fine :P`
`00:10.21`	`*** join/#bzflag Ballard (n=Ballard@stjch2-12-46-85-157.stjohncable.com)`
`00:11.35`	`Admirarch`	`Mr_Molez: Anyone can cheat too, are you saying that's okay?`
`00:11.52`	`JeffM2501`	`the tank it self should have some minimum accleratons`
`00:11.57`	`Mr_Molez`	`cheating aint apart of the official client`
`00:11.59`	`JeffM2501`	`that are applied to all inputs`
`00:12.12`	`JeffM2501`	`and what is that bot?`
`00:13.29`	`Mr_Molez`	`why has -a been took out of 2.1 ? is it set at a default number or something ?`
`00:13.35`	`*** join/#bzflag shorty114 (n=shorty11@unaffiliated/shorty114)`
`00:13.57`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah`
`00:14.17`	`Mr_Molez`	`ok`
`00:14.34`	`Mr_Molez`	`the -a limits dont work well with super fast tanks :P`
`00:14.42`	`CBG`	`Oh great, now nobody can do multiple jumps on all servers... :P`
`00:14.54`	`Mr_Molez`	`multiple jumps ?`
`00:15.38`	`CBG`	`like, if you jump once, then jump again as soon as you land...`
`00:15.47`	`CBG`	`that gets all messed up with -a settings :(`
`00:16.03`	`Mr_Molez`	`uhuh, really ?`
`00:16.08`	`menotume`	`fast accels wen't part of the origianl client either, but people found out how`
`00:16.09`	`CBG`	`yup.`
`00:16.27`	`uso`	`the multi jump is hopefully fixed in 2.1`
`00:16.30`	`menotume`	`and, look at all the non-cheaters begin accused of cheating`
`00:16.34`	`Mr_Molez`	`ofcourse they were part of the original client. using keyboard uses full accel`
`00:16.38`	`menotume`	`ALL using extereme mouse settings`
`00:16.47`	`menotume`	`not, it doesn't`
`00:16.51`	`menotume`	`KB is clmaped`
`00:17.11`	`menotume`	`mouse is (can be) MUCH faster than KB`
`00:17.14`	`Mr_Molez`	`and anyway, if there is no limit on it, then its apart of the client :P`
`00:17.24`	`Mr_Molez`	`faster ?`
`00:17.35`	`menotume`	`faster chnage of direction`
`00:17.39`	`uso`	`nkeyboard is not clamped for linear, i.e. forward/backward movement`
`00:17.40`	`Mr_Molez`	`hmm`
`00:17.57`	`uso`	`keyboard is only clamped for left/right movement`
`00:18.03`	`CBG`	`so bang goes the ME is for everyone theory.`
`00:18.04`	`Mr_Molez`	`menotume: hehe`
`00:18.07`	`menotume`	`EME has changed how the game is played in some cases`
`00:18.12`	`CBG`	`ME really is MOUSE enhancement, not for KB players. :P`
`00:18.25`	`uso`	`keyboard always had it :)`
`00:18.40`	`*** join/#bzflag SC (n=SportChi@69-167-38-164.stmnca.adelphia.net)`
`00:18.41`	`menotume`	`i come across players that will shoot both shots, and go into a dance right in front of you`
`00:18.42`	`Mr_Molez`	`uso: u rule ! :)`
`00:18.50`	`menotume`	`no penalty for shooting both shots`
`00:19.20`	`Mr_Molez`	`a penalty for shooting ? eh ?`
`00:19.36`	`*** join/#bzflag shorty114 (n=shorty11@unaffiliated/shorty114)`
`00:19.39`	`menotume`	`well then, if EME isn't an advantage ... then why are some using it`
`00:19.51`	`menotume`	`and changing their playstyle`
`00:20.07`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+v SportChick] by ChanServ`
`00:20.08`	`Mr_Molez`	`it may be an advantage . But nobody can't do it, so its not unfair`
`00:20.12`	`menotume`	`and not wanting to lose it`
`00:20.18`	`menotume`	`heh`
`00:20.34`	`CBG`	`I do not possess a mouse. I would have to spend my hard earned cash to use ME... :P`
`00:20.36`	`orange_away`	`so if nobody can do it, that'd be OK too?`
`00:20.43`	`menotume`	`well, i want to see it as a server setting`
`00:20.46`	`uso`	`it's an advantage, as you can change your speed for full forward to full backward faster with the mouse`
`00:20.47`	`Mr_Molez`	`I believe ME is a coverup for other cheats in my honest oppinion`
`00:20.59`	`menotume`	`it could be`
`00:21.02`	`orange_away`	`Mr_Molez: it certainly could be used that way`
`00:21.05`	`Mr_Molez`	`orange_away: yes ornage`
`00:21.06`	`orange_away`	`it'd be a great cover`
`00:21.08`	`menotume`	`my point is, you cna't detect cheaters anymore`
`00:21.25`	`menotume`	`cause shots go thru way too much`
`00:21.32`	`Mr_Molez`	`yeh`
`00:21.46`	`menotume`	`I want to see it as a server setting`
`00:21.56`	`Mr_Molez`	`see what ?`
`00:21.57`	`menotume`	`so, a server op can choose to play 'old-style'`
`00:22.03`	`Mr_Molez`	`oh`
`00:22.04`	`menotume`	`or steroid style`
`00:22.10`	`Mr_Molez`	`doesn't -a already do that ?`
`00:22.14`	`menotume`	`no`
`00:22.18`	`menotume`	`you know it doesn't`
`00:22.37`	`menotume`	`DUB has used -a for 6 months now`
`00:22.39`	`Mr_Molez`	`not with the small settings server owners use, with a higher -a it could be`
`00:22.40`	`uso`	`menotume: there's a server setting which makes angular movement clamped to a raster of 3 degrees with default settings`
`00:23.05`	`menotume`	`with higher -a, it affects everyone`
`00:23.10`	`menotume`	`even I can see it`
`00:23.16`	`Mr_Molez`	`but its fair for everyone is it not ?`
`00:23.19`	`menotume`	`it doesn't fully work`
`00:23.30`	`menotume`	`i dunno`
`00:23.49`	`menotume`	`i doubt it`
`00:24.03`	`menotume`	`there just HAS to be a limit`
`00:24.08`	`menotume`	`on any net game`
`00:24.25`	`menotume`	`wherever there is lag`
`00:24.31`	`Mr_Molez`	`what is 2.1's limit set to , seen as -a has been took out`
`00:24.52`	`JeffM2501`	`I think A is in there, but it has a default`
`00:24.57`	`menotume`	`if -a option has been removed, that's a serious problem IMO`
`00:24.57`	`JeffM2501`	`don't remember what it was`
`00:25.00`	`menotume`	`ahh, ok`
`00:25.17`	`Mr_Molez`	`im sure i got errors saying -a was not an option when i tried it`
`00:25.19`	`Mr_Molez`	`ill go test again`
`00:25.21`	`JeffM2501`	`it wasn't realy small, but it wasn't realy big`
`00:25.35`	`JeffM2501`	`it may have changed in name too`
`00:25.39`	`JeffM2501`	`as to break old configs`
`00:25.39`	`Mr_Molez`	`oh lol`
`00:25.42`	`JeffM2501`	`to make sure they set it`
`00:26.08`	`Mr_Molez`	`./bzfs -a`
`00:26.08`	`Mr_Molez`	`bad argument "-a"`
`00:27.28`	`*** join/#bzflag zee052 (n=3eb26b18@zeebrothers.net)`
`00:27.33`	`uso`	`the default network settings are probably too slow for fast speed changes, someone should try to increase position update rate and remove update throttling on a crowded server`
`00:27.41`	`*** part/#bzflag zee052 (n=3eb26b18@zeebrothers.net)`
`00:29.38`	`uso`	`i think somewhere in the network settings (or network code) may be the reason that ME "does not work"`
`00:29.58`	`orange`	`it works great for some folks :-)`
`00:30.05`	`uso`	`;)`
`00:30.08`	`Mr_Molez`	`orange: a coverup i tell you !`
`00:30.26`	`Mr_Molez`	`:P`
`00:30.47`	`*** join/#bzflag plosibot (n=bugs@216-55-160-43.dedicated.abac.net)`
`00:31.23`	`orange`	`Mr_Molez: that's exactly the problem, all kidding aside`
`00:31.26`	`orange`	`no way to know, is there?`
`00:32.01`	`Mr_Molez`	`true`
`00:32.55`	`Mr_Molez`	`lol @ db for causing all this fuss over ME`
`00:33.15`	`orange`	`too bad his tactics were crap`
`00:33.46`	`*** join/#bzflag plosibot (n=bugs@216-55-160-43.dedicated.abac.net)`
`00:33.53`	`Mr_Molez`	`how so ?`
`00:34.10`	`orange`	`antagonize, accuse, disrupt`
`00:34.13`	`*** join/#bzflag Ballard (n=Ballard@stjch2-12-46-85-157.stjohncable.com)`
`00:34.31`	`Mr_Molez`	`lol when he first told me about ME i thought i couldn't believe he was getting mad over it`
`00:34.49`	`Mr_Molez`	`i thought everyone knew about it`
`00:35.33`	`orange`	`when he first brought it up I'd say 90% of the folks didn't know about it`
`00:35.42`	`Mr_Molez`	`anyone done any testing into ME -a and frame limiter`
`00:36.03`	`Mr_Molez`	`mikkel told me if u have frame limiter on it cancels out -a limits`
`00:36.16`	`Mr_Molez`	`frame limit being energy saver (ie low fps)`
`00:36.24`	`*** join/#bzflag SC (n=SportChi@69-167-38-164.stmnca.adelphia.net)`
`00:39.40`	`*** join/#bzflag shorty114 (n=shorty11@unaffiliated/shorty114)`
`00:43.43`	`uso`	`Mr_Molez: yes, low frame rates helps agains -a settings, the higher the frame rates the more the -a settings hit`
`00:44.32`	`orange`	`Admirarch: :-)`
`00:45.59`	`Mr_Molez`	`see no use having -a there is a way round it :P`
`00:46.12`	`Mr_Molez`	`just causing more of an ME problem hahaha`
`00:46.27`	`orange`	`Mr_Molez: I think everyone knows it is broken`
`00:46.27`	`Mr_Molez`	`people with ME dont change and people without are more limited hehehe`
`00:46.44`	`Mr_Molez`	`orange: meno doesn;t :P`
`00:46.46`	`orange`	`you're very amused tonight`
`00:46.48`	`uso`	`hmm, somewhat depressing, on a first view more than 80% of the relevant position updates of a client will not be seen by the server (and the other clients) because of the update throttling`
`00:46.59`	`orange`	`Mr_Molez: ? he's asking for it to be fixed`
`00:47.04`	`orange`	`that makes an implication`
`00:47.17`	`Mr_Molez`	`orange: no he said it was bad for it to be taken out`
`00:48.18`	`uso`	`583 position updates, 236 angle updates, 3461 throttled`
`00:48.41`	`Mr_Molez`	`why is it being throttled ?`
`00:48.52`	`Admirarch`	`bandwidth`
`00:49.07`	`uso`	`no wonder you can't see a fast tank moving right ;)`
`00:49.14`	`Mr_Molez`	`can't we use less throttling now everyone has higher bandwidth`
`00:49.23`	`JeffM2501`	`well that and it takes time for the DR update to get there`
`00:49.23`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+v SportChick] by ChanServ`
`00:49.25`	`Mr_Molez`	`i think most people have atleast 512`
`00:49.33`	`uso`	`try it on your servers ;)`
`00:49.34`	`JeffM2501`	`so the faster the tank the more off the DR corection is`
`00:49.39`	`uso`	`it's a server setting`
`00:49.44`	`Mr_Molez`	`uso: it is :O ?`
`00:50.05`	`Mr_Molez`	`how much bandwidth would no throlling require (for the client)`
`00:50.16`	`*** join/#bzflag Tropican8 (i=user@c-68-54-190-116.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)`
`00:50.29`	`Tropican8`	`!bash`
`00:50.31`	`plosibot`	`Bash #7308 (Rating: 115): <DarkImportGrey> god there's nothing greater than using people to your advantage`
`00:50.32`	`plosibot`	`Bash #7308 (Rating: 115): <DarkImportGrey> well... bowel movements are quite rewarding...`
`00:50.32`	`plosibot`	`Bash #7308 (Rating: 115): <DarkImportGrey> but it's close`
`00:50.33`	`uso`	`dunno, that's why someone have to try it on a busy server ;)`
`00:50.33`	`plosibot`	`Bash #7308 (Rating: 115): <DarkImportGrey> manipulation vs. dumping`
`00:50.34`	`plosibot`	`Bash #7308 (Rating: 115): <DarkImportGrey> i guess i'd have to do both at once to see which would win`
`00:50.38`	`Mr_Molez`	`JeffM2501: ban it !`
`00:50.40`	`*** kick/#bzflag [plosibot!n=JeffM@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/JeffM2501] by JeffM2501 (JeffM2501)`
`00:50.40`	`*** join/#bzflag plosibot (n=bugs@216-55-160-43.dedicated.abac.net)`
`00:50.47`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+b !@*.dedicated.abac.net] by JeffM2501`
`00:50.47`	`*** kick/#bzflag [plosibot!n=JeffM@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/JeffM2501] by JeffM2501 (JeffM2501)`
`00:50.54`	`uso`	`JeffM2501: yes, that may be another problem`
`00:50.56`	`JeffM2501`	`who's is that?`
`00:50.59`	`a_meteorite`	`eh?`
`00:51.01`	`*** part/#bzflag Tropican8 (i=user@c-68-54-190-116.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)`
`00:51.03`	`JeffM2501`	`uso that is the only problem`
`00:51.12`	`JeffM2501`	`throtleing dosn't send updates any faster`
`00:51.26`	`JeffM2501`	`when the client sees that DR is wrong it will send an update imediately`
`00:51.34`	`JeffM2501`	`it just takes time`
`00:51.51`	`JeffM2501`	`the faster the tank, the more distance it goes in that time on DR, so the further off it is`
`00:51.55`	`uso`	`but it reduces the deviation between what people see`
`00:52.03`	`JeffM2501`	`no it dosn't`
`00:52.11`	`JeffM2501`	`if it takes 100ms for an update message`
`00:52.20`	`uso`	`the client does not send the update, that;s the problem`
`00:52.32`	`JeffM2501`	`the client shoudl send the message the instance DR is off`
`00:52.39`	`JeffM2501`	`regardless of throttle`
`00:52.49`	`Admirarch`	`Are there any prominent European ME users?`
`00:52.57`	`Mr_Molez`	`snick`
`00:53.07`	`uso`	`no, the throttling prevents the message from beeing send`
`00:53.18`	`JeffM2501`	`then that is wrong`
`00:53.26`	`JeffM2501`	`a DR update should happen imediately`
`00:53.42`	`Admirarch`	`Mr_Molez: He's not actually that hard to hit up close`
`00:53.47`	`JeffM2501`	`where is the throttle code?`
`00:54.24`	`uso`	`Player::isDeadReckoningWrong`
`00:54.54`	`Mr_Molez`	`hmm`
`00:55.36`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah that's not good`
`00:55.44`	`uso`	`:)`
`00:55.45`	`JeffM2501`	`it should weigh the time based on how far off it is`
`00:55.50`	`JeffM2501`	`gonna fix it?`
`00:56.03`	`uso`	`me? no :)`
`00:56.11`	`Mr_Molez`	`Admirarch: guess there are none :P`
`00:56.30`	`uso`	`i only have played around with the throttle setting`
`00:56.35`	`Mr_Molez`	`uso: so were u right, is it worth trying with no throttling ?`
`00:56.39`	`uso`	`but my server is not so crowded ...`
`00:57.02`	`JeffM2501`	`the update is 30 times a second`
`00:57.10`	`JeffM2501`	`I think your still gonna have problems`
`00:57.16`	`JeffM2501`	`but this may make it slightly worse`
`00:58.16`	`uso`	`Mr_Molez: it's always worth to try it on a busy server`
`00:58.35`	`uso`	`but you may trigger network problems in other parts ;)`
`01:00.01`	`uso`	`but yes, it would be good if the default throttle rate could be increased with the next release as bandwidth ressources are increasing too`
`01:00.56`	`Mr_Molez`	`yay`
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`01:09.29`	`JeffM2501`	`I'd rather make it do the update based on distance that you'll be off based on ping`
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`01:22.31`	`uso`	`JeffM2501: yes, the larger the distance you are off compared to prediction the higher the priority for an update`
`01:24.37`	`uso`	`but i don't see the relation to the ping, i.e. lag of the player`
`01:27.22`	`JeffM2501`	`the distance off has to be in relation to the speed and the time the message will take`
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`01:29.53`	`JeffM2501`	`but still any instant direction change makes for some lag error`
`01:30.03`	`JeffM2501`	`having some acceleration limits smoothes it out a lot`
`01:30.11`	`uso`	`the package runtime to the server will be precalculated by the sending client? is there no timestamp in the message?`
`01:30.22`	`uso`	`yeah, you always have the lag`
`01:30.50`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah we REALY need timestamps`
`01:31.37`	`uso`	`need to be rather low acceleration limits to help for that, considering usual lag values of 100+ ms`
`01:32.12`	`uso`	`gets more a strategic game then :)`
`01:32.22`	`uso`	`*strategy`
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`01:33.40`	`JeffM2501`	`I think with both thing it will help most system`
`01:35.09`	`uso`	`so there is no synced gametime in bzflag? each client has it's "own" time?`
`01:35.46`	`JeffM2501`	`there is no sync`
`01:37.39`	`A-Delusion`	`I thought you could force players to sync, with -synctime, ...that's only for celestial?`
`01:38.21`	`uso`	`surprisingly shots do hit sometimes anyhow :))`
`01:38.57`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah that's just stars`
`01:39.02`	`JeffM2501`	`we don't have a lag synced clock`
`01:39.12`	`JeffM2501`	`uso sure they hit, cus it's done client side :)`
`01:39.40`	`uso`	`nyes, i mean more fom the view of the opponent :)`
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`03:30.06`	`JeffM2501`	`yay for 500 more mhz`
`03:34.27`	`pyr0`	`lucky lucky`
`03:34.54`	`pyr0`	`im happy overclocking my 3200 xp to 2.99ghz`
`03:35.02`	`pyr0`	`at least for a few months`
`03:37.03`	`JeffM2501`	`nice`
`03:37.08`	`spldart`	`Watercooling anyone? :-)`
`03:37.53`	`spldart`	`Nighty night`
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`09:29.00`	`ToughShooter`	`~seen chestal`
`09:29.14`	`ibot`	`chestal is currently on #bzflag. Has said a total of 22 messages. Is idling for 11h 9m 11s, last said: 'I guess you coudl record some movement while playing, then write a simple tool to calc how many packets woudl be sent depending on the parameters'.`
`09:29.36`	`ToughShooter`	`Chestal: ping`
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`09:35.38`	`Chestal`	`ToughShooter: hmm?`
`09:37.30`	`ToughShooter`	`Chestal: Are you sure, the _tankRadius is the hit zone in 2D?`
`09:37.42`	`Chestal`	`quite`
`09:38.07`	`ToughShooter`	`Chestal: I did create a log, where a bullet hit me while I was driving straight forward`
`09:38.25`	`ToughShooter`	`it touched the circle a little bit but my tank did not explode`
`09:39.02`	`Manu`	`ToughShooter: probably you were cheating ;) and hallo :)`
`09:39.12`	`Chestal`	`touched? was it actually inside the circle?`
`09:39.27`	`ToughShooter`	`no, it was half outside and half inside`
`09:39.38`	`ToughShooter`	`¡Hola Manu!`
`09:39.51`	`Chestal`	`shots have no dimension, at least not for hit detection`
`09:39.59`	`Chestal`	`they are points`
`09:40.22`	`ToughShooter`	`Does that mean I should only take attention to the middle of the shot?`
`09:40.28`	`Manu`	`that's why is to difficult to kill a narrow :)`
`09:40.35`	`Chestal`	`ToughShooter: yes`
`09:40.42`	`ToughShooter`	`Aaah`
`09:41.22`	`ToughShooter`	`Manu: I use mouse wheel for narrow..there is no problem on viper :)`
`09:42.02`	`Manu`	`ToughShooter: of course but is more difficult to hit a narrow than a normal tank ;)`
`09:42.07`	`ToughShooter`	`bound the shooting trigger to mouse wheel up and down as well as on mouse left button`
`09:42.22`	`Chestal`	`I think for narrow, a very thin rectangle is used for the hit detection`
`09:42.27`	`Manu`	`it's pixel against pixel`
`09:42.55`	`ToughShooter`	`Manu: 5 bullets shot almost instantly to where the opponent is ;)`
`09:43.08`	`Manu`	`not sure, but the narrowed tank looks 1 pixel width :)`
`09:43.14`	`ToughShooter`	`It's a row I fire beginning from left or right`
`09:43.27`	`Manu`	`ToughShooter: I only need one :)`
`09:43.43`	`ToughShooter`	`Heh, I make sure I hit :p`
`09:43.54`	`Chestal`	`the ShotRadius is used as width of the box`
`09:44.43`	`ToughShooter`	`Does bzlogview draw the bullets using the shot radius?`
`09:45.50`	`Chestal`	`I don't think so`
`09:45.58`	`Mr_Molez`	`bzlogger is pretty much useless, as it doesn't take lag into account`
`09:45.59`	`Chestal`	`at least the actual shotRadius is not saved in the log`
`09:46.25`	`ToughShooter`	`Mr_Molez: In my case I do not have very much lag ;)`
`09:46.33`	`Mr_Molez`	`ahh k :P`
`09:46.45`	`Chestal`	`Mr_Molez: that's more or less the point. It's a tool to see effect of lag. Particularly useful if you have more than one log of the same situation`
`09:47.07`	`Chestal`	`it's not designed as an anti-cheat tool`
`09:47.15`	`ToughShooter`	`It is still helpful in case when an opponent does not move`
`09:47.18`	`Mr_Molez`	`Chestal: true, but other people are using it for something else.Which just doesn't work`
`09:47.52`	`ToughShooter`	`e.g. keyboard drivers`
`09:48.32`	`Mr_Molez`	`will usb or bluetooth keyboards allow you to use more than 3 keys at once ?`
`09:48.55`	`ToughShooter`	`What I find amusing is that most people do shoot too soon when I am in the air and landing in front of them where they wait`
`09:49.06`	`Mr_Molez`	`lol`
`09:49.13`	`Mr_Molez`	`i do that all the time ;)`
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`10:06.57`	`Mr_Molez`	`[shorty114]: you ok :P ?`
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`12:25.32`	`Mr_Molez`	`shorty114_: if jeff sees that lol`
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`12:47.20`	`Mr_Molez`	`~dict paria`
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`13:25.38`	`Mr_Molez`	`thank goodness`
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`14:29.58`	`Admirarch`	`~dict pariah`
`14:30.40`	`Mr_Molez`	`Admirarch: is that in your list of words to describe me ;)`
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`15:36.02`	`ToughShooter`	`DTRemenak: ping`
`15:41.49`	`ToughShooter`	`I think I found a 6 years and 4 months old bug :o`
`15:42.07`	`blast007`	`hehe`
`15:42.45`	`ToughShooter`	`A silly logic error ;)`
`15:43.31`	`Mr_Molez`	`wow eh`
`15:43.32`	`Mr_Molez`	`heh`
`15:45.03`	`JeffM2501`	`where?`
`15:45.13`	`ToughShooter`	`LocalPlayer.cxx`
`15:45.34`	`ToughShooter`	`JeffM2501: Familiar with that file?`
`15:45.44`	`JeffM2501`	`somewhat`
`15:45.49`	`ToughShooter`	`I would like to discuss a fix`
`15:46.02`	`ToughShooter`	`When a player pauses dt = 0`
`15:46.14`	`ToughShooter`	`timeStep is later set as dt`
`15:46.14`	`JeffM2501`	`ok`
`15:46.32`	`ToughShooter`	`Now newPos[2] is computed with help of timeStep`
`15:46.44`	`ToughShooter`	`When the player is paused timeStep has a different value`
`15:46.50`	`JeffM2501`	`well if you are paused your not moving`
`15:46.56`	`ToughShooter`	`So newPos[2] is changed`
`15:46.56`	`JeffM2501`	`so that would be fine I would think`
`15:47.04`	`ToughShooter`	`no, it is not`
`15:47.19`	`JeffM2501`	`how can you be moving and paused?`
`15:47.26`	`ToughShooter`	`newPos[2] uses the timestep as multiplier`
`15:47.39`	`JeffM2501`	`times the vector right?`
`15:47.44`	`JeffM2501`	`then adds taht to the old pos`
`15:47.47`	`ToughShooter`	`one moment, I open the source file ..`
`15:48.22`	`dngor`	`What's a tank camera's radius of sight? Stuff too far away shrinks and disappears in a disconcerting way. I need to add some "distant" map elements for visual effect, but they need to remain visible from the other side of the map.`
`15:48.45`	`ToughShooter`	`This one: http://bzflag.cvs.sourceforge.net/bzflag/bzflag/src/bzflag/LocalPlayer.cxx?revision=2.45&view=markup`
`15:49.01`	`ToughShooter`	`newPos[2] = tmpPos[2] + timeStep * newVelocity[2];`
`15:49.14`	`ToughShooter`	`so it changes the result`
`15:49.26`	`JeffM2501`	`ToughShooter, ok so that will just set newpos to tmpPos`
`15:49.45`	`JeffM2501`	`cus timestep and vel will come out to 0 and be added to tmpPos`
`15:49.50`	`ToughShooter`	`when a player is in height 30 the inMovingBox check for the various obstacle types will fail`
`15:49.53`	`JeffM2501`	`dngor, how far away`
`15:50.10`	`dngor`	`JeffM2501: As far as possible. :)`
`15:50.17`	`JeffM2501`	`there is a max view distance`
`15:50.22`	`JeffM2501`	`it's not setable by the server`
`15:50.34`	`JeffM2501`	`it's computed automaticly on the client`
`15:50.47`	`JeffM2501`	`mesh objects can do LODs as well`
`15:50.50`	`JeffM2501`	`how big is your map`
`15:51.04`	`dngor`	`It's the default 800x800`
`15:51.09`	`JeffM2501`	`ToughShooter, and having a difrent new pos makes those tests not fail?`
`15:51.21`	`JeffM2501`	`dngor, are your objects inside the world bountrys?`
`15:51.22`	`ToughShooter`	`JeffM2501: I traced it from LocalPlayer.cxx over World.cxx to Obstacle.h and then (when being on a base) to BaseBuilding.cxx`
`15:51.36`	`trepan`	`the far plane clip is relative to worldsize, iirc`
`15:51.40`	`dngor`	`Not the ones I want to be real far away. I can wait 'til ToughShooter is done.`
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`15:52.19`	`JeffM2501`	`dngor, yeah basicly as trepan said the view distance is reltive to the world size ( the playable area) so stuff outside of that may be too cliped`
`15:52.27`	`trepan`	`see playing.cxx/setupFarPlane()`
`15:52.29`	`ToughShooter`	`JeffM2501: Not tested yet but I am pretty sure when newPos[2] is computed with non-zero dt it will work`
`15:52.39`	`trepan`	`also depends on fog`
`15:52.42`	`JeffM2501`	`ToughShooter, are you basicly just making it so that if you pause while not at 0, you fall and land as normal?`
`15:53.00`	`trepan`	`is setable by the server with _cullDist`
`15:53.45`	`JeffM2501`	`ToughShooter, I'm not geting a lot of confidence out of you on the problem tho. why would a chaning position work and not a static one? they are both valid positions that the other calcs shoudl be able to handle properly`
`15:53.51`	`menotume`	`need 2 defs of each object, one for detail view, one for far view`
`15:53.54`	`menotume`	`:)`
`15:54.01`	`ToughShooter`	`JeffM2501: I want to keep current behaviour but fix the wrong location being set due to that bug`
`15:54.02`	`trepan`	`dngor: you could also make a custom skybox ;)`
`15:54.16`	`JeffM2501`	`I'm not sure that is a wrong location`
`15:54.20`	`JeffM2501`	`your NOT moving`
`15:54.24`	`ToughShooter`	`yes`
`15:54.26`	`menotume`	`ToughShooter: what are the symptoms ?`
`15:54.30`	`JeffM2501`	`you haven't shown me it's a bad number`
`15:54.34`	`menotume`	`can you produce a problem ?`
`15:54.41`	`ToughShooter`	`menotume: sure`
`15:55.00`	`dngor`	`trepan: I've considered it... I need to get rid of the sunshine, too. :)`
`15:55.06`	`ToughShooter`	`should I upload a demonstration test that shows the problem?`
`15:55.17`	`menotume`	`not for me :)`
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`15:55.37`	`trepan`	`get rid of the sunshine?`
`15:55.38`	`JeffM2501`	`have you steped thru the debuger in that code and seen what it computes?`
`15:55.40`	`menotume`	`was just curious`
`15:55.44`	`ToughShooter`	`yes`
`15:56.05`	`JeffM2501`	`and if you pause at Z 30, what does it compute for your new position?`
`15:56.16`	`ToughShooter`	`On the base on HIX2, newPos[2] is usually 29.9991`
`15:56.30`	`ToughShooter`	`when the tank is paused newPos[2] changes to 30`
`15:56.56`	`JeffM2501`	`why would it normaly be inside the basetop?`
`15:57.01`	`JeffM2501`	`that dosn't seem right?`
`15:57.22`	`ToughShooter`	`In BaseBuilding.cxx there is a check in inMovingBox-function for that value`
`15:57.36`	`JeffM2501`	`for 30 or for 29.999`
`15:57.57`	`ToughShooter`	`From looking right now 29.9991 is compared to 30 in BaseBuilding.cxx in that special case`
`15:58.12`	`JeffM2501`	`that's the part that seems to be not right to me`
`15:58.26`	`JeffM2501`	`sounds like it's checking for < not <=`
`15:58.29`	`ToughShooter`	`Well, it does work when dt is not 0`
`15:58.50`	`ToughShooter`	`Just as soon as dt is 0 all goes boom`
`15:58.51`	`JeffM2501`	`sounds like that's just a small hack to make it work with the other busted code`
`15:59.01`	`ToughShooter`	`Probably`
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`15:59.22`	`JeffM2501`	`change it to use a real DT, but put a TODO to invesigate why a 0 DT does not work, cus it techincaly shold`
`15:59.29`	`JeffM2501`	`that also means a 0 vector would not work`
`15:59.37`	`JeffM2501`	`and that definatly should work`
`16:00.06`	`JeffM2501`	`asuming you've tested the change to make sure it dosn't break anything else :)`
`16:00.31`	`ToughShooter`	`So, I change something like 3 lines to work around and make a note for others? heh`
`16:00.57`	`JeffM2501`	`that is unless you want to go evaluate all the rest of the collision code to find out why you can't drive at exactly the surface value`
`16:01.19`	`JeffM2501`	`so yes, if you are going to make a fix, but it's not what the real final fix shoudl be, you make a note`
`16:01.23`	`ToughShooter`	`The collision code is hard to understand`
`16:01.29`	`JeffM2501`	`otherwise noone will know that it's not right`
`16:01.41`	`ToughShooter`	`I am not seeing its logic behind`
`16:02.07`	`JeffM2501`	`3d collisions are interesting :)`
`16:02.35`	`JeffM2501`	`in reality what pause shoudl do is set your vector to 0`
`16:02.39`	`JeffM2501`	`since you arn't moving`
`16:02.47`	`JeffM2501`	`not DT`
`16:05.08`	`ToughShooter`	`3D is hard to imaginate for me :(`
`16:05.53`	`JeffM2501`	`you may want to read and reasearch more into it before you jump into the codee`
`16:06.00`	`dngor`	`I used to tinker with povray. 3d is a lot easier when you know your axes and how spin and shift work. :)`
`16:06.05`	`JeffM2501`	`finished code is not always the best to learn since its' been optimised`
`16:06.20`	`JeffM2501`	`dngor, mostly he's talking about 3d math ;)`
`16:10.35`	`TD-Linux`	`I just play with the numbers until it works, when entering coordinates in POV-Ray by hand :P`
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`16:13.39`	`siggraph`	`i'm not sure setting vector to zero would b e agood idea.. that would affect tank behavior potentially (e.g. assume pausing in the air were allowed, same holds for some "acceleration bad flag" and other such)`
`16:13.49`	`JeffM2501`	`yes`
`16:14.17`	`JeffM2501`	`we need to decide what happens when a tank pauses, and it's in an unstable ( not 0 ) state`
`16:14.36`	`JeffM2501`	`probably force the input to 0`
`16:14.46`	`JeffM2501`	`and let the other factors take effect ( falling, and whatnot )`
`16:15.15`	`ToughShooter`	`JeffM2501: Actually I am afraid of the mesh code ;)`
`16:15.21`	`Manu`	`hola siggraph :)`
`16:15.33`	`JeffM2501`	`fear no code`
`16:16.43`	`siggraph`	`hola manu`
`16:17.55`	`Manu`	`siggraph: visitando Boston? :)`
`16:18.37`	`TD-Linux`	`Code can't hurt you, but you can hurt yourself trying to understand it :)`
`16:21.26`	`trepan`	`and by typing it`
`16:21.52`	`JeffM2501`	`how is the new keyboard and layout doing for ya?`
`16:23.03`	`trepan`	`the dvorak learning process is teaching me new pains`
`16:25.49`	`trepan`	`and i just got my first patch into taspring, which doesn't bode well for the hand`
`16:26.29`	`JeffM2501`	`well will give you ample oportunity to train it`
`16:27.53`	`trepan`	`or put it out of commission, whichever comes first`
`16:28.07`	`JeffM2501`	`:(`
`16:28.29`	`ToughShooter`	`JeffM2501: We could otherwise just define that a tank does not move while pause and therefore skip the location computation during paused`
`16:29.04`	`JeffM2501`	`ToughShooter, a posibility, but then you'd not want to let them pause mid jump ;)`
`16:29.26`	`ToughShooter`	`JeffM2501: Actually this is how I found the bug`
`16:29.43`	`ToughShooter`	`I was checking for state.status & state.Falling ;)`
`16:30.13`	`ToughShooter`	`The server kicked all players on buildings in that case`
`16:30.26`	`JeffM2501`	`I'd like to see the entire pause system redone, where you send in a request for a pause, the server checks to see if your cool to pause, sends you a countdown ( disableing input ), then sends you a nomove and noshoot messagfe`
`16:30.52`	`JeffM2501`	`and the countdown with no input gives you time to land, etc...`
`16:31.43`	`ToughShooter`	`Sometimes player hit p on accident like me`
`16:32.04`	`JeffM2501`	`well then during the countdown they can hit P again to uppause`
`16:32.08`	`JeffM2501`	`unpause`
`16:32.18`	`JeffM2501`	`or we put a confirm on pause`
`16:32.26`	`JeffM2501`	`it's not suposed to be a fast action`
`16:32.33`	`JeffM2501`	`it's "I have to pee"`
`16:33.25`	`JeffM2501`	`personaly I'd like to make the pause request take out of the game world totaly`
`16:33.36`	`JeffM2501`	`and slowly lower your score the longer you are away ;)`
`16:33.44`	`blast007`	`heh`
`16:33.58`	`JeffM2501`	`that will realy prevent it's abbuses`
`16:34.02`	`L4m3r`	`Autopilot does the latter part for you`
`16:34.09`	`JeffM2501`	`heh true`
`16:34.21`	`JeffM2501`	`I'd like it to take you to observer`
`16:34.23`	`L4m3r`	`how about "autopilot until death"?`
`16:34.28`	`JeffM2501`	`so you don't even show as an active player`
`16:35.26`	`L4m3r`	`I dunno, I've always thought it easier to just wait until you get shot, then go take a leak, and respawn when you get back.`
`16:35.38`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah`
`16:35.50`	`L4m3r`	`I hate seeing paused tanks around`
`16:35.51`	`JeffM2501`	`maybe we should just totaly reevaluate all the legit uses of pause`
`16:36.00`	`JeffM2501`	`and see if another feature will serve as well`
`16:36.03`	`L4m3r`	`agreed.`
`16:36.29`	`JeffM2501`	`voping them to observer takes are of all the nasy collision and physics problems`
`16:36.46`	`L4m3r`	`I've had to "disable" pausing because it allows players to drop bad flags`
`16:37.30`	`*** join/#bzflag redsoxfan90 (n=Moniz@c-66-30-227-126.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)`
`16:38.45`	`JeffM2501`	`and speaking of valid reasons to pause`
`16:39.42`	`ToughShooter`	`JeffM2501: I thought about making the countdown delay accessible via /set`
`16:40.08`	`L4m3r`	`it'd be fun for self-destruct also`
`16:40.29`	`TD-Linux`	`what about taking screenshots? What should happen then?`
`16:40.36`	`L4m3r`	`I remember a few months back, we were running shockwavedeath on mofo...`
`16:40.50`	`blast007`	`TD-Linux: huh?`
`16:41.01`	`L4m3r`	`it was fun as hell to find a PZ flag, zone yourself, and go kamikaze on a camper`
`16:41.13`	`blast007`	`heh`
`16:41.20`	`TD-Linux`	`you can pass through thin objects if your screenshot takes long enough to save...`
`16:41.39`	`blast007`	`TD-Linux: right..`
`16:42.07`	`L4m3r`	`a more complete game state on the server side could help with that`
`16:44.17`	`redsoxfan90`	`TD-Linux: You can pass through building because your freezing up the screen.`
`16:44.45`	`redsoxfan90`	`TD-Linux: Maybe devs shoud remove this but we can always use cntrl prnt(takes a screenshot) and this doesn't freeze the screen.`
`16:44.55`	`TD-Linux`	`redsoxfan90: well, kinda...`
`16:45.11`	`TD-Linux`	`when you take a screenshot the game loop pauses...`
`16:45.12`	`Mr_Molez`	`redsoxfan90: that was fixed ages ago`
`16:45.26`	`blast007`	`but as has been stated before, screenshots are not the ONLY way to induce lag`
`16:45.35`	`TD-Linux`	`I guess`
`16:45.40`	`blast007`	`so it's not a matter of fixing screenshots`
`16:45.42`	`redsoxfan90`	`lol pause modem?`
`16:45.53`	`TD-Linux`	`no`
`16:45.58`	`blast007`	`redsoxfan90: I mean lag as far as the performance of the game`
`16:46.02`	`TD-Linux`	`you would want a way to stop the game loop`
`16:46.16`	`blast007`	`yeah, lag time between the loop`
`16:46.22`	`L4m3r`	`the server should just find a way to calculate "ok this player stopped responding and ended up here, and there was no way in hell that coul've happened" /kick`
`16:46.25`	`TD-Linux`	`temporarily, so the next physics calculation puts your tank clean through the wall`
`16:47.21`	`TD-Linux`	`one solution would be to stretch the tank from the previous location to the current one and use that for physics calculations`
`16:47.27`	`TD-Linux`	`but /ban works well too`
`16:47.33`	`L4m3r`	`heh`
`16:47.39`	`L4m3r`	`hidden admin gestapo ;)`
`16:47.58`	`L4m3r`	`OOPS, there was an admin watching. bye bye sucker!`
`16:49.04`	`L4m3r`	`Some players are really decieful like that. they'll kiss ass until the admins leave, and the cheat/tk/whatever`
`16:50.07`	`redsoxfan90`	`i love hidden admin :P`
`16:50.13`	`redsoxfan90`	`comes in handy.`
`16:50.18`	`L4m3r`	`sure does`
`16:51.29`	`TD-Linux`	`we don't have any at BoxyWar...`
`16:51.39`	`TD-Linux`	`maybe we should all go completely hidden-admin ;)`
`16:51.45`	`L4m3r`	`nope`
`16:51.50`	`L4m3r`	`tried that, not great`
`16:51.58`	`TD-Linux`	`oh`
`16:52.04`	`L4m3r`	`see, hidden admin also hides the player indexes from everything`
`16:52.09`	`TD-Linux`	`oh`
`16:52.22`	`L4m3r`	`so it impedes your ability to moderate`
`16:52.27`	`TD-Linux`	`:/`
`16:52.49`	`L4m3r`	`I used to do the hidden admin thing on boxy`
`16:52.52`	`blast007`	`L4m3r: you should be able to modify the client to show that on the scoreboard`
`16:53.03`	`L4m3r`	`or modify the server`
`16:53.16`	`L4m3r`	`I'm pretty sure it's bound to the @ being sent`
`16:54.01`	`blast007`	`probably based on the whole isAdmin() thing`
`16:54.20`	`JeffM2501`	`so the wet room gave me an idea of how to redo pause`
`16:54.30`	`blast007`	`:)`
`16:54.47`	`redsoxfan90`	`L4m3r: To much of a hassle :), i would just tell the server to go hidden admin.`
`16:54.54`	`redsoxfan90`	`lol`
`16:55.27`	`L4m3r`	`I've done hidden admin just by watching under my other name, and coming back and banning`
`16:55.55`	`redsoxfan90`	`i do this too.`
`16:56.09`	`JeffM2501`	`ahh the warm cuping embarace... of pants`
`16:57.17`	`JeffM2501`	`ok, so step 1.. remove all current pause code`
`16:57.39`	`JeffM2501`	`then make it so that when you pause, you bring up a confirm screen ( have to hit P again to realy pause )`
`16:57.47`	`JeffM2501`	`this sends a pause request to the server`
`16:57.56`	`JeffM2501`	`server makes sure you arn't zoned`
`16:58.21`	`JeffM2501`	`and sends you back a countdown start ( generic ) and a set of "don't move" "don't shoot" messages that block all new input`
`16:58.44`	`JeffM2501`	`so you fall or momentum or whatnot while the countdown goes on.`
`16:59.02`	`JeffM2501`	`when it's over the server then sends everyone a despawn message for you that takes you out of the world`
`16:59.12`	`JeffM2501`	`and puts you in the "I just died" limbo`
`16:59.30`	`JeffM2501`	`but it also sends a message that says "you can't respawn yet"`
`16:59.50`	`JeffM2501`	`and your client then jsut blisfully sits there till you unpause and it sends an unpause message, then the server lets you spawn`
`17:00.00`	`JeffM2501`	`if you die during the countdown, you go right to limbo`
`17:00.11`	`JeffM2501`	`do not pass go, do not collect 200$`
`17:00.30`	`JeffM2501`	`that's it`
`17:00.35`	`JeffM2501`	`dosn't take up an observer slot`
`17:00.58`	`JeffM2501`	`still lets tanks fall/die`
`17:00.58`	`JeffM2501`	`prevents accedental pauses`
`17:01.11`	`JeffM2501`	`and makes it pointless to pause for in game advantages`
`17:01.23`	`JeffM2501`	`also lets you repsawn to a new position when you get back`
`17:01.53`	`ToughShooter`	`May the players don't want a new position`
`17:02.01`	`JeffM2501`	`then they shouldn't pause :)`
`17:02.16`	`ToughShooter`	`Oh, they should`
`17:02.37`	`JeffM2501`	`you could add a server side option to spawn them in there last place`
`17:02.39`	`ToughShooter`	`like when the game countdown is paused and they go away`
`17:02.49`	`JeffM2501`	`that would not be hard at all`
`17:02.56`	`redsoxfan90`	`JeffM2501: You need to pause in matches :)`
`17:03.02`	`JeffM2501`	`ok`
`17:03.14`	`JeffM2501`	`if you can respawn at your last location, then all is good`
`17:03.36`	`JeffM2501`	`tho I also have ideas of how to redo the match system to get away from all this lame stuff we have now with pauses`
`17:03.41`	`ToughShooter`	`The pause sphere is a good indicator in league games`
`17:03.52`	`JeffM2501`	`of what?`
`17:04.02`	`TD-Linux`	`I like that idea :)`
`17:04.08`	`ToughShooter`	`A player went away and when he is back`
`17:04.25`	`JeffM2501`	`why not mark that on the big old scoreborad`
`17:04.38`	`JeffM2501`	`for leauge games I want the server to handle subsitituions etc...`
`17:05.29`	`JeffM2501`	`if we are going to make it better, then make it all better :)`
`17:05.34`	`redsoxfan90`	`JeffM2501: how could a server handle a sub?, you might want to sub at a specific time.`
`17:05.52`	`JeffM2501`	`redsoxfan90, you ask the server for one`
`17:06.06`	`JeffM2501`	`both agree, and it happens`
`17:06.08`	`ToughShooter`	`I do not get it`
`17:06.18`	`JeffM2501`	`server swaps the players, keeps the scores`
`17:06.51`	`TD-Linux`	`yay, hot team-swapping :)`
`17:06.57`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah basicly`
`17:07.02`	`JeffM2501`	`2.1 has a team swap message now`
`17:07.04`	`ToughShooter`	`Usually only one team exchanges a player`
`17:07.07`	`redsoxfan90`	`bah :P`
`17:07.29`	`TD-Linux`	`well, you would have to swap observer to team to substitute`
`17:07.29`	`JeffM2501`	`basicly everyone not playing would be observer`
`17:07.58`	`JeffM2501`	`if a player had to sub out, server would swap the 2, and the old player could quit, or leave or whatever`
`17:08.10`	`JeffM2501`	`but it would leave the new player with the old players score`
`17:08.17`	`JeffM2501`	`just like in a real sports game`
`17:08.43`	`ToughShooter`	`JeffM2501: While I would agree on not moving during the countdown I would not agree to the rest as the system looks good as it is right now`
`17:08.52`	`JeffM2501`	`why?`
`17:08.56`	`JeffM2501`	`what problems do you have with it?`
`17:09.15`	`ToughShooter`	`I have no problems the way it works`
`17:09.23`	`JeffM2501`	`then what's the problem?`
`17:09.31`	`ToughShooter`	`Why change a lot when it is already ok?`
`17:09.32`	`redsoxfan90`	`JeffM2501: i like the idea of how you would keep the same score.`
`17:09.49`	`JeffM2501`	`ToughShooter, why are you making it server side then?`
`17:09.52`	`TD-Linux`	`ToughShooter: Okay, let's not develop BZFlag anymore. It's OK.`
`17:09.59`	`JeffM2501`	`mostly it enables a bunch of other stuff`
`17:10.12`	`JeffM2501`	`you could let an admin force somone to go to limbo to discuss a problem`
`17:10.16`	`JeffM2501`	`like before a ban or a warn`
`17:10.26`	`TD-Linux`	`ooh`
`17:10.28`	`JeffM2501`	`it coudl be used in leauge games to make sure everyone spawns at the same time, etc...`
`17:10.33`	`ToughShooter`	`I do control it server side, not change behaviour`
`17:10.48`	`JeffM2501`	`don't be afraid to change behavor for the better`
`17:11.14`	`ToughShooter`	`TD-Linux: I just do not see a benifit :/`
`17:11.30`	`redsoxfan90`	`But i think its a pain to ask the server to sub :), just to sub.`
`17:11.34`	`JeffM2501`	`it takes them out of the world system`
`17:11.47`	`TD-Linux`	`the countdown for pausing could be 3 seconds, and that would be extened if the tank isn't on solid ground by the end of the countdown`
`17:12.04`	`JeffM2501`	`not if you despawned them`
`17:12.12`	`JeffM2501`	`they could poof in air with out problem`
`17:12.20`	`TD-Linux`	`hmm`
`17:12.27`	`TD-Linux`	`good point :)`
`17:12.29`	`JeffM2501`	`and they would be OUT of the thing`
`17:12.34`	`JeffM2501`	`so not affecting the game in any way`
`17:12.41`	`JeffM2501`	`the pause sphere is not intuitive to new palyers`
`17:12.45`	`JeffM2501`	`it looks like a shield`
`17:12.51`	`ToughShooter`	`right`
`17:13.00`	`JeffM2501`	`so best to just take them out of the entire game`
`17:13.06`	`JeffM2501`	`as if they had died and not respawned`
`17:13.15`	`ToughShooter`	`I remember first time I saw this I wondered what does this player do?`
`17:13.21`	`JeffM2501`	`exactly`
`17:13.25`	`JeffM2501`	`so the current behavor isn't great`
`17:13.40`	`ToughShooter`	`Not intuitive`
`17:13.48`	`JeffM2501`	`if there are things people use the sphere for, we shoudl look at those and see if there are other interface enhancements that would serve as beter indicatiors`
`17:14.07`	`TD-Linux`	`and if you stayed paused for a certain amount of time you could be cycled to observer to free a slot`
`17:14.15`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah`
`17:14.18`	`JeffM2501`	`that would not be hard`
`17:14.23`	`TD-Linux`	`if you unpaused while observer, it would let you back in at the next open slot`
`17:14.32`	`TD-Linux`	`maybe even keep your score or something`
`17:14.49`	`L4m3r`	`well, with the new team changing capabilities, you do keep all your data`
`17:15.09`	`JeffM2501`	`also the no move and no shoot messages can be usefull for a lot of other cases, tutorials, safety zones, game mods, etc..`
`17:15.23`	`JeffM2501`	`you could make a game mod that make it so flag runers can't shoot ;)`
`17:15.32`	`L4m3r`	`heck, it'd be nice to put players as obs if they go NR for more than a few seconds`
`17:15.40`	`TD-Linux`	`NO FAIR!!! ;)`
`17:16.02`	`JeffM2501`	`or at least put them in limbo`
`17:16.08`	`JeffM2501`	`so they arn't on the playfield`
`17:16.33`	`JeffM2501`	`if your NR is longer then the pause countdown, count it as a pause :)`
`17:17.50`	`ToughShooter`	`JeffM2501: Would you like several little commits better than one big?`
`17:18.35`	`JeffM2501`	`would probably depend on how comfortable you are with your changes, and if you make them modular or not`
`17:19.34`	`ToughShooter`	`Heh, it is one patch file`
`17:20.14`	`A-Delusion`	`progressive flag mode seems to be functioning perfectly as a packet-loss player kicker. sooner or later the player is given a flag and doesn't get the message.. Result: endshot credit or flag mismatch kick.`
`17:21.55`	`JeffM2501`	`the give flag message should be TCP and always go thru`
`17:22.27`	`A-Delusion`	`any player with any loss is getting kicked, even if it's intermittent`
`17:22.37`	`blast007`	`problem is, they can shoot before they get the message that they have a new flag`
`17:22.41`	`JeffM2501`	`that dosn't seem right`
`17:22.43`	`A-Delusion`	`seems to be working perfectly for non-lagging players`
`17:22.50`	`JeffM2501`	`ahh that would be the problem`
`17:23.30`	`A-Delusion`	`we added a half second delay between the player making a kill and getting a flag`
`17:24.00`	`A-Delusion`	`before that, lag over 150 would get kicked`
`17:24.34`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah the entire flag "Give" system is flawed`
`17:24.41`	`JeffM2501`	`need to stamp the flag with each shot`
`17:24.54`	`JeffM2501`	`then send out a generic weapon descriptor`
`17:25.01`	`A-Delusion`	`so that is truly the root of my problem.`
`17:25.06`	`JeffM2501`	`that way we can do better checks`
`17:27.59`	`A-Delusion`	`if /flag give is tcp and truly does go thru every time, that doesnt completely explain why player with packet loss are getting kicked,`
`17:28.24`	`blast007`	`A-Delusion: just because it WILL go through, doesn't mean it will get there in a reasonable amount of time :)`
`17:28.58`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah, the udp shot message will make it back to the server BEFORE the client gets the flag message`
`17:29.02`	`A-Delusion`	`so I just lower my lag threshold a it.`
`17:29.05`	`A-Delusion`	`bit`
`17:29.06`	`JeffM2501`	`so the server thinks they have the new flag`
`17:29.11`	`JeffM2501`	`but the shot is the old flag`
`17:29.18`	`JeffM2501`	`so the server ssay "no"`
`17:29.32`	`JeffM2501`	`the server assumes instant comunication`
`17:30.37`	`A-Delusion`	`well.. I kinda like the packet loss kicks..`
`17:30.49`	`A-Delusion`	`not really complaining`
`17:30.55`	`blast007`	`A-Delusion: or you could just add true packet loss kicking to the server ;)`
`17:31.43`	`blast007`	`can't the server just say "no, you actually shot THIS flag", and then send on the MsgShotBegin?`
`17:33.06`	`blast007`	`just not sure how we'd handle telling the client that fired what flag they actually fired`
`17:34.23`	`JeffM2501`	`by imbeding the full flag info into the shot structure, and sending back an "ack" packet when the client changes flags`
`17:34.38`	`blast007`	`ah, yeah`
`17:34.52`	`blast007`	`so then the server knows for sure they have the new flag`
`17:34.57`	`JeffM2501`	`and have the server check the shots against flag history`
`17:35.00`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah`
`17:35.10`	`JeffM2501`	`many of our things need more checks and ballances`
`17:35.19`	`JeffM2501`	`that can assume lag and packetloss`
`17:35.39`	`blast007`	`still, if they have packet loss, the ack message might take longer to get there than the shot message ;)`
`17:35.52`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah`
`17:36.07`	`JeffM2501`	`that's why you'd make the kick check a little fuzzy`
`17:36.07`	`blast007`	`but the server could still check the flag info in the shot, and compare that to what it should be`
`17:36.16`	`JeffM2501`	`let it be ok if it's the new flag, or the old one`
`17:36.17`	`blast007`	`so it would know the ack is on the way`
`17:36.25`	`JeffM2501`	`if it's the new one then we know they got the flag, and set the ack`
`17:36.38`	`JeffM2501`	`if its' the old one then we know they havn't acked`
`17:36.41`	`JeffM2501`	`stuff like that`
`17:36.44`	`blast007`	`yup`
`17:37.04`	`blast007`	`and I do like the idea of disabing movement/input with a message`
`17:37.28`	`blast007`	`just makes the server have a little more control over the client`
`17:39.04`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah`
`17:39.11`	`JeffM2501`	`kinda need that for a lot of stuff`
`17:39.11`	`Mr_Molez`	`~convert 240 eur to gbp`
`17:39.47`	`Mr_Molez`	`~exchange 240 eur to gbp`
`17:39.51`	`A-Delusion`	`I'm asking the players who it happens to, do you have machine gun or rapidfire, they say yes`
`17:44.10`	`*** join/#bzflag JeffM2501 (n=JeffM@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/JeffM2501)`
`17:44.11`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+o JeffM2501] by ChanServ`
`17:46.53`	`*** join/#bzflag Theme97 (n=Theme97@adsl-68-120-69-185.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net)`
`17:55.59`	`TD-Linux`	`JeffM2501: can you accept my texture? I'm a bit anxious.`
`17:56.28`	`*** join/#bzflag Matt123 (n=Matt123_@stjch2-12-46-85-157.stjohncable.com)`
`17:58.24`	`TD-Linux`	`JeffM2501: oops, the one I submitted is bad`
`18:00.17`	`TD-Linux`	`JeffM2501: oops again, the one I submitted IS right`
`18:02.17`	`*** join/#bzflag bryjen (n=bryjen@2002:45a6:86ae:0:0:0:0:1)`
`18:02.18`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+v bryjen] by ChanServ`
`18:20.02`	`JeffM2501`	`done`
`18:23.31`	`*** join/#bzflag Blue-Eyes (n=Blue@host206-147.pool8260.interbusiness.it)`
`18:25.40`	`TD-Linux`	`thank you :)`
`18:30.52`	`*** join/#bzflag TD-Linux_ (n=TD-Linux@24-159-201-32.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com)`
`18:45.22`	`uso`	`JeffM2501: so the player is invulnerable during the pause countdown?`
`18:45.44`	`uso`	`would increase the potential of abuse`
`18:47.54`	`JeffM2501`	`uso, no totaly vulerable`
`18:48.20`	`uso`	`but you can't remove the ability to move without making it invulnerable`
`18:48.30`	`JeffM2501`	`why not?`
`18:48.40`	`JeffM2501`	`I can change the code however is needed`
`18:48.45`	`uso`	`would make pause sensless, you are dead within the countdown`
`18:48.58`	`JeffM2501`	`no you dont get it`
`18:50.01`	`uso`	`so the player lose the ability to move AFTER the countdown is finished?`
`18:50.28`	`JeffM2501`	`no no`
`18:50.32`	`JeffM2501`	`we send a new message`
`18:50.36`	`JeffM2501`	`during the count down`
`18:50.41`	`JeffM2501`	`that makes them not able to move`
`18:50.49`	`JeffM2501`	`so they fall`
`18:50.52`	`JeffM2501`	`but they are still killable`
`18:51.01`	`JeffM2501`	`then when the countdown is over, they are despawned`
`18:51.12`	`uso`	`so you are not able to move, but you are vulnerable during the countdown, right?`
`18:51.15`	`JeffM2501`	`so basicly you have to be in a safe place for 3 seconds`
`18:51.19`	`JeffM2501`	`yes`
`18:51.26`	`uso`	`that's an illusion :)`
`18:51.54`	`JeffM2501`	`it's to prevent abuses`
`18:52.03`	`uso`	`would be better to remove pause then, get shot to pause is about the same as your new mechanism`
`18:52.21`	`JeffM2501`	`cept this dosn't change your score`
`18:52.42`	`JeffM2501`	`or you could have the option of leting them move, but not shoot`
`18:52.53`	`uso`	`huh? if you get shot during the countdown does not change score?`
`18:53.01`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah that it would`
`18:53.22`	`JeffM2501`	`right now pause can be abbused greatly`
`18:53.46`	`uso`	`if the countdown would be server controlled, no`
`18:53.48`	`JeffM2501`	`by making you not able to move, you limit who uses it`
`18:53.52`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah`
`18:54.17`	`uso`	`making it useless is sure a way to prevent abuse :)`
`18:54.39`	`JeffM2501`	`it's not useless`
`18:54.47`	`JeffM2501`	`it's for when you have to leave for a while`
`18:55.00`	`JeffM2501`	`you find a quiet spot, pause and be done`
`18:55.10`	`uso`	`yes, but then you can let you get killed, it would be the same`
`18:55.19`	`JeffM2501`	`if your unlucky`
`18:55.30`	`JeffM2501`	`so you'r saying you should be allowed to move`
`18:55.38`	`JeffM2501`	`to at least doge shots`
`18:55.48`	`uso`	`it's an illusion to stay alife for 3 or 5 seconds without the ability to move, you don't play the game :)`
`18:56.00`	`JeffM2501`	`I've done it before`
`18:56.11`	`JeffM2501`	`but probably not on 10 shot servers`
`18:56.18`	`*** join/#bzflag A_Heart_Attack (n=A_Heart_@ool-44c748c9.dyn.optonline.net)`
`18:56.21`	`JeffM2501`	`ok, so add an option to let you keep moving`
`18:56.24`	`JeffM2501`	`but not shooting`
`18:56.44`	`uso`	`i would say at least let them move, maybe remove the ability to shoot`
`18:56.55`	`JeffM2501`	`fair nuf`
`18:57.17`	`JeffM2501`	`but at least with the messages we can controll it on a server by server basis`
`18:57.29`	`TD-Linux`	`another idea: when in 'limbo', whether paused or dead, after a certain amount of time switch to observer`
`18:57.34`	`TD-Linux`	`so being dead is just like being paused`
`18:57.53`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah`
`18:57.59`	`uso`	`yeah, it's of course a good idea to let the server control it`
`18:58.07`	`JeffM2501`	`limbo is not playing but not observing`
`18:58.38`	`TD-Linux`	`it should look similar for both dead and paused, then`
`18:58.51`	`TD-Linux`	`pausing blanks the screen, but being dead darkens it and cracks it`
`18:59.08`	`JeffM2501`	`the cracks are not part of limbo`
`18:59.17`	`JeffM2501`	`cracks would only be on death`
`18:59.17`	`TD-Linux`	`okay`
`18:59.47`	`TD-Linux`	`maybe the screen should darken if you spawn in a different place, and should be blanked if you spawn where you left off`
`19:00.22`	`TD-Linux`	`or be darkened completely instead of seeing sky, grass, and mountains`
`19:00.24`	`uso`	`ugly black screens, one of the changes of 2.0.8 i don't like`
`19:00.32`	`JeffM2501`	`I think you all worry about how the old game looks`
`19:01.01`	`TD-Linux`	`'old game' ?`
`19:01.03`	`*** join/#bzflag AHA (n=A_Heart_@ool-44c748c9.dyn.optonline.net)`
`19:01.14`	`*** join/#bzflag a_meteorite (n=a_meteor@adsl-75-15-143-92.dsl.snlo01.sbcglobal.net)`
`19:01.15`	`JeffM2501`	`2.0.8`
`19:01.19`	`JeffM2501`	`;)`
`19:01.22`	`*** part/#bzflag A_Heart_Attack (n=A_Heart_@ool-44c748c9.dyn.optonline.net)`
`19:01.26`	`JeffM2501`	`remember ANYTHING can change in 2.2`
`19:01.30`	`uso`	`hehe, old game :)`
`19:01.35`	`TD-Linux`	`haven't checked out 2.1 in like 3 weeks :P`
`19:01.35`	`*** join/#bzflag AHA (n=A_Heart_@ool-44c748c9.dyn.optonline.net)`
`19:02.12`	`uso`	`yay for popups :) ... do we get a popup blocker like every browser has? ;)`
`19:02.40`	`JeffM2501`	`nope`
`19:02.48`	`uso`	`was afraid of this :)`
`19:03.26`	`JeffM2501`	`of what?`
`19:04.29`	`uso`	`that we do not get a popup blocker ;)`
`19:04.37`	`JeffM2501`	`why would you want one?`
`19:05.30`	`uso`	`because i don't like popups while i'm playing, removes concentration`
`19:05.52`	`uso`	`they are ok if you are not in game, i.e. not spawned`
`19:06.18`	`JeffM2501`	`I don't think there are any plans for them whileplaying`
`19:06.23`	`JeffM2501`	`unless your in tutorial`
`19:06.26`	`*** join/#bzflag shorty114 (n=shorty11@unaffiliated/shorty114)`
`19:07.21`	`uso`	`JeffM2501 then make it so that when you pause, you bring up a confirm screen ( have to hit P again to realy pause )`
`19:07.25`	`*** join/#bzflag A_Heart_Attack (n=A_Heart_@ool-44c748c9.dyn.optonline.net)`
`19:07.28`	`uso`	`isn't that a popup? :)`
`19:07.41`	`JeffM2501`	`ahh yeah`
`19:07.43`	`JeffM2501`	`that would be one`
`19:07.49`	`uso`	`:)`
`19:07.49`	`JeffM2501`	`but that's based on your action`
`19:08.05`	`*** join/#bzflag Empirical (n=botty@unaffiliated/shorty114)`
`19:08.43`	`JeffM2501`	`would be trivial to put in a local config option to not confrm pauses as well`
`19:09.28`	`uso`	`yeah, but it's hard enough to stay alife after you hit p now, no time to interact with a popup, apart from it may block your view to hud or radar`
`19:09.53`	`uso`	`no problrm if it's configurable`
`19:09.54`	`JeffM2501`	`you just have to hit p again`
`19:10.11`	`uso`	`so good for newbies and good for advanced`
`19:10.15`	`JeffM2501`	`so double tap P`
`19:10.46`	`*** join/#bzflag godtvisken (n=godtvisk@ip72-201-147-100.ph.ph.cox.net)`
`19:11.00`	`uso`	`and triple or quatrouple for cancel it? :)`
`19:11.09`	`bryjen`	`if pausing without being killed is so hard, maybe you should wait until you're killed (sound like that happens to you frequently ;) and stay dead`
`19:11.10`	`*** join/#bzflag moonpix (n=user@200-203-57-204.pltce7002.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br)`
`19:11.40`	`godtvisken`	`Is it all linux clients or just me where the "laughter" when you are killed/your flag is capped sounds like chipmonks?`
`19:11.47`	`uso`	`that's what i said, it may be better to remove it completely`
`19:12.27`	`godtvisken`	`sounds like chipmonsk compared to how it was on windows`
`19:13.12`	`JeffM2501`	`the sound engine dosn't do conversions right in SDL I fear`
`19:13.16`	`bryjen`	`i've noticed the sound effects sound sped-up when being played through SDL`
`19:13.34`	`godtvisken`	`so.. any fix at the moment?`
`19:13.41`	`JeffM2501`	`redo the sound engine`
`19:13.51`	`godtvisken`	`me or the coders?`
`19:13.59`	`JeffM2501`	`ether or`
`19:14.49`	`bryjen`	`if you're using gnome or kde, you can try to suspend their sound daemon before launching bzflag, so bzflag may play sound better directly`
`19:15.44`	`JeffM2501`	`install windows ;)`
`19:15.50`	`bryjen`	`~lart JeffM2501`
`19:20.34`	`*** join/#bzflag zee864 (n=5808a890@zeebrothers.net)`
`19:22.35`	`*** join/#bzflag Blue-Eyes (n=Blue@host60-148.pool8256.interbusiness.it)`
`19:30.00`	`*** join/#bzflag zee127 (n=52d41854@zeebrothers.net)`
`19:31.34`	`TD-Linux`	`a 25-position parallel cable is far better :)`
`19:32.35`	`TD-Linux`	`BZFlag with ALSA sounds terrible on Kubuntu`
`19:32.58`	`TD-Linux`	`KDE by default releases the DSP after 60 seconds, so if BZFlag gets access to it, it sounds much better.`
`19:33.26`	`JeffM2501`	`no no, all things on linux are BETTER`
`19:36.52`	`TD-Linux`	`Our MIDI is awesome, it only takes about 5 hours to get Timidity++ to work`
`19:37.48`	`TD-Linux`	`and Windows crashes, so NOTHING works, and NOBODY can ever get ANYTHING accomplished on Windows.`
`19:38.14`	`JeffM2501`	`except for sound in bzflag`
`19:38.26`	`TD-Linux`	`yup :)`
`19:38.28`	`TD-Linux`	`and MIDI`
`19:38.34`	`TD-Linux`	`and a huge assortment of other things`
`19:38.47`	`TD-Linux`	`which I'm not supposed to admit according to ./`
`19:38.52`	`TD-Linux`	`ahem`
`19:38.57`	`TD-Linux`	`/.`
`19:59.51`	`*** part/#bzflag godtvisken (n=godtvisk@ip72-201-147-100.ph.ph.cox.net)`
`20:08.49`	`*** join/#bzflag Soraya_ (n=Soraya@pool-70-16-218-234.man.east.verizon.net)`
`20:08.55`	`Soraya_`	`hi`
`20:09.01`	`Theme97`	`hi`
`20:09.13`	`a_meteorite`	`hi`
`20:09.15`	`a_meteorite`	`:\`
`20:09.18`	`Soraya_`	`i have a question for anyone who can/wants to answer it`
`20:09.25`	`Theme97`	`ME.`
`20:09.26`	`Theme97`	`ME!`
`20:09.35`	`Soraya_`	`u prob wont be able to...`
`20:09.40`	`Theme97`	`...`
`20:09.58`	`Soraya_`	`i compiled bz 2.0.8 and got it to work (im using mepis for linux)...`
`20:09.58`	`ToughShooter`	`What is the question? ;)`
`20:10.07`	`Theme97`	`THAT'S NOT A QUESTION! ;) j/k.`
`20:10.08`	`Soraya_`	`i can join and play fine, i can't join as an observer`
`20:10.16`	`Soraya_`	`when i try to it quits`
`20:10.21`	`Soraya_`	`how do i fix it?!`
`20:10.24`	`Theme97`	`my bz just did that.`
`20:10.30`	`ToughShooter`	`Does it segfault?`
`20:10.38`	`Soraya_`	`what's segfault?`
`20:10.51`	`Theme97`	`:O`
`20:10.51`	`blast007`	`run it from a terminal`
`20:11.00`	`ToughShooter`	`well, trying to access memory that is not available`
`20:11.04`	`Soraya_`	`how?`
`20:11.08`	`blast007`	`should say "Segmentation Fault" if it had a segfault`
`20:11.23`	`Soraya_`	`dont think it does`
`20:11.27`	`ToughShooter`	`yeah, run it inside a terminal, look whether it prints out something of interest`
`20:11.29`	`a_meteorite`	`also, try running with -d`
`20:11.33`	`Soraya_`	`what do u mean theme, ur just did that`
`20:11.34`	`a_meteorite`	`bzflag -d`
`20:11.35`	`blast007`	`Soraya_: inside the terminal?`
`20:11.57`	`ToughShooter`	`terminal meaning "something like bash"`
`20:12.00`	`Soraya_`	`i dont know how to run it in a terminal`
`20:12.03`	`Theme97`	`i went to join a game as observer and bz died.`
`20:12.03`	`blast007`	`or xterm`
`20:12.08`	`Theme97`	`Met: /segfault >: )`
`20:12.18`	`a_meteorite`	`lol`
`20:12.21`	`blast007`	`Soraya_: have you tried just typing bzflag into a terminal?`
`20:12.25`	`ToughShooter`	`Open bash, then on promt enter the path to the bzflag playing client`
`20:12.29`	`Soraya_`	`no`
`20:12.41`	`a_meteorite`	`do that, we need more info :P`
`20:12.43`	`blast007`	`might work, or as ToughShooter said, put the path`
`20:13.13`	`a_meteorite`	`cause it just won't pop-up an error when it crashes, you need a terminal to see it`
`20:13.54`	`*** join/#bzflag codergeek42 (n=peter@gentoo/developer/codergeek42)`
`20:13.55`	`blast007`	`"Warning! User error!"`
`20:14.02`	`a_meteorite`	`hehe`
`20:14.09`	`Soraya_`	`hold on a couple mins`
`20:14.35`	`a_meteorite`	`"Invalid team, Soraya is too good to observe!"`
`20:14.39`	`Soraya_`	`lol`
`20:14.51`	`Soraya_`	`ok, when it crashes, it says segmentation fault`
`20:14.57`	`a_meteorite`	`yuppers`
`20:15.00`	`Theme97`	`"Error, mouse not detected. Click anywhere to continue." ?`
`20:15.02`	`Soraya_`	`what's that mean?`
`20:15.11`	`a_meteorite`	`meaning it accessed memory it's not supposed to`
`20:15.13`	`a_meteorite`	`or can't`
`20:15.17`	`blast007`	`Soraya_: means it went all crashy and boomy`
`20:15.22`	`a_meteorite`	`yeah`
`20:15.23`	`Soraya_`	`k...how do i fix it?`
`20:15.30`	`ToughShooter`	`Probably a bad pointer`
`20:15.33`	`a_meteorite`	`Soraya_: did you compile CVS or a 2.0.8 tarball?`
`20:15.37`	`Theme97`	`Soraya_: Segfault means I screwed up my plug-in. :(`
`20:15.47`	`Soraya_`	`2.0.8 tarball`
`20:15.49`	`a_meteorite`	`Theme97: ...`
`20:15.55`	`a_meteorite`	`you can give CVS a try`
`20:16.02`	`a_meteorite`	`I find it to be pretty stable`
`20:16.05`	`Soraya_`	`:( i dont want to do that again...`
`20:16.05`	`ToughShooter`	`Soraya_: Hard to say, something may not initialize correct`
`20:16.21`	`Soraya_`	`i didn't know how to do it in the 1st place, dewdave gave me easy directions`
`20:16.25`	`blast007`	`~bz20cvs`
`20:16.29`	`ibot`	`cvs -d :pserver:anonymous@cvs.bzflag.org:/cvsroot/bzflag co -P -r v2_0branch bzflag`
`20:16.32`	`a_meteorite`	`ToughShooter: but, if it does it ALL the time, it wouldn't be hard to debug`
`20:16.50`	`blast007`	`a_meteorite: if the client was built debug, sure :)`
`20:16.53`	`a_meteorite`	`heh`
`20:16.53`	`ToughShooter`	`Basically segfault means it crashes, to find out what causes it you need debuggers`
`20:16.54`	`a_meteorite`	`:P`
`20:16.55`	`blast007`	`which it wasn't`
`20:17.13`	`a_meteorite`	`I've debugged my bzfs before without --enable-debug`
`20:17.15`	`ToughShooter`	`Debugging problems often isn't fun :/`
`20:17.23`	`Theme97`	`... OFTEN!?`
`20:17.36`	`Theme97`	`all the time?`
`20:17.36`	`Theme97`	`=/`
`20:17.37`	`a_meteorite`	`Theme97: often debugging?`
`20:17.42`	`ToughShooter`	`a_meteorite: Then you loose the symbols (..)`
`20:17.44`	`a_meteorite`	`nah, just once, to figure out a plugin problem`
`20:18.00`	`Soraya_`	`so in other words there's no easy way to fix this`
`20:18.10`	`a_meteorite`	`but it wasn't "hard-core" debugging, pretty simple stuff ;)`
`20:18.32`	`blast007`	`Soraya_: isn't there a pre-built binary for your OS?`
`20:18.46`	`a_meteorite`	`oblisk should work`
`20:18.49`	`blast007`	`yeah`
`20:18.51`	`blast007`	`or that`
`20:18.54`	`Soraya_`	`not on source forge`
`20:18.57`	`a_meteorite`	`or your package management might have it`
`20:18.59`	`blast007`	`...`
`20:19.01`	`a_meteorite`	`Soraya_: they don't put it at SF`
`20:19.06`	`blast007`	`Soraya_: what distro?`
`20:19.10`	`Soraya_`	`mepis`
`20:19.20`	`Soraya_`	`dshh meteorite, i dont know anything`
`20:19.33`	`a_meteorite`	`Soraya_: the BZFlag download page :P`
`20:19.36`	`a_meteorite`	`Soraya_: http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/suparun/bzflag-2.0.8-x86-Opkg.tar.gz?download`
`20:19.43`	`Soraya_`	`my package manager's repositories haven't been updated so i can't get it there eitehr`
`20:19.58`	`a_meteorite`	`try that, it's a pre-built binary`
`20:20.55`	`Soraya_`	`so...what, is it just supposed to work or do i have to do something to it?`
`20:21.04`	`Soraya_`	`(besides install it)`
`20:21.09`	`blast007`	`it's just "supposed to work"`
`20:21.11`	`a_meteorite`	`it's supposed to work, but it doesn't`
`20:21.22`	`Soraya_`	`but it doesn't?`
`20:21.33`	`a_meteorite`	`maybe a bad linux implementation? not sure`
`20:21.45`	`a_meteorite`	`Soraya_: well, it works for everyone else ;)`
`20:21.50`	`blast007`	`a_meteorite: they're talking about the oblisk package`
`20:22.02`	`a_meteorite`	`blast007: oh, in that case, it should :)`
`20:22.07`	`blast007`	`yeah :)`
`20:22.08`	`Soraya_`	`lol :)`
`20:22.11`	`blast007`	`Soraya_: so give that a shot`
`20:22.13`	`a_meteorite`	`I used the 2.0.4 oblisk package beautifully`
`20:22.43`	`JeffM2501`	`you were unable to compile?`
`20:22.49`	`blast007`	`they compiled it`
`20:22.58`	`Soraya_`	`ok, because i suck at this, tell me how to install this`
`20:23.00`	`blast007`	`but it crashed when they joined as observer`
`20:23.17`	`a_meteorite`	`Soraya_: eek... open a terminal`
`20:23.28`	`a_meteorite`	`is it downloaded and unarchived?`
`20:23.36`	`JeffM2501`	`building on linux is not trivial, don't feel dumb`
`20:23.47`	`JeffM2501`	`every distro has it in there little head to do it totaly difrent`
`20:23.49`	`blast007`	`yeah, lots of freaking dependencies :)`
`20:23.51`	`Soraya_`	`i did try to extract it, but it had a problem`
`20:23.51`	`a_meteorite`	`JeffM2501: she's trying the oblisk package now since her own compiled one segfaults`
`20:24.00`	`a_meteorite`	`Soraya_: what's the error?`
`20:24.03`	`JeffM2501`	`downdate her libcurl`
`20:24.08`	`a_meteorite`	`...`
`20:24.15`	`a_meteorite`	`but it's only when you join observer`
`20:24.17`	`JeffM2501`	`cus it's probalby not her build`
`20:24.25`	`Soraya_`	`it just says 'an error occured while trying to open the archive'`
`20:24.28`	`a_meteorite`	`heh`
`20:24.41`	`a_meteorite`	`that's really helpful :)`
`20:24.46`	`Soraya_`	`i know isn't it`
`20:25.09`	`blast007`	`how big is the file?`
`20:25.16`	`a_meteorite`	`JeffM2501: but why would a buggy libcurl only affect observer?`
`20:25.23`	`a_meteorite`	`JeffM2501: she segfaults when she joins obs`
`20:25.37`	`JeffM2501`	`that I don't know`
`20:25.41`	`a_meteorite`	`heh`
`20:25.49`	`Soraya_`	`blast007: the file is 11.7 MB`
`20:25.52`	`blast007`	`k`
`20:25.54`	`a_meteorite`	`I figured that affected all things network related`
`20:26.08`	`blast007`	`open a terminal, and cd into the directory you downloaded to`
`20:26.20`	`JeffM2501`	`but you can't realy "screw up" a compile and have it just die on one thing`
`20:26.26`	`a_meteorite`	`yeah`
`20:26.38`	`blast007`	`JeffM2501: I'm sure I could do it`
`20:26.45`	`a_meteorite`	`either it's all the way b0rked or it's not b0rked :P`
`20:26.50`	`JeffM2501`	`usualy problems aren't that targeted`
`20:26.57`	`blast007`	`I'm talented`
`20:27.07`	`JeffM2501`	`well if you muck with it sure`
`20:27.13`	`JeffM2501`	`I mean just by doing our standard build`
`20:27.45`	`a_meteorite`	`rm -f src/bzflag/playing.cxx`
`20:27.46`	`a_meteorite`	`;)`
`20:28.06`	`a_meteorite`	`heh, that would break the whole build ;)`
`20:28.11`	`JeffM2501`	`that would be "mucking wiht it"`
`20:28.15`	`a_meteorite`	`yeah, it would`
`20:28.28`	`a_meteorite`	`playing.cxx is absolutely scary`
`20:29.01`	`DTRemenak`	`fear no code. use the source.`
`20:29.06`	`a_meteorite`	`lol`
`20:29.30`	`Soraya_`	`blast007: what now?`
`20:29.48`	`blast007`	`tar -xvvzf bzflag-2.0.8-x86-Opkg.tar.gz`
`20:29.49`	`blast007`	`I guess`
`20:29.52`	`DTRemenak`	`fear leads to anger. anger leads to hate. hate leads to suffering.`
`20:29.55`	`a_meteorite`	`tar xzf bzflag-2.0.8-x86-Opkg.tar.gz`
`20:30.18`	`a_meteorite`	`or use blast's for useful errors ;)`
`20:30.36`	`blast007`	`a_meteorite: my fingers are just programmed to that combination ;)`
`20:30.42`	`a_meteorite`	`blast007: lol`
`20:30.59`	`a_meteorite`	`I always seem to forget how to do bzip's and end up doing a google search`
`20:31.29`	`Soraya_`	`k...now what?`
`20:31.39`	`a_meteorite`	`Soraya_: cd bzflag-2.0.8-x86-Opkg`
`20:31.40`	`blast007`	`cd bzflag-2.0.8-x86-Opkg`
`20:31.42`	`blast007`	`heh`
`20:31.47`	`blast007`	`I lost that time`
`20:31.49`	`a_meteorite`	`:P`
`20:32.16`	`Soraya_`	`then`
`20:32.17`	`a_meteorite`	`then do, ./bzflag`
`20:32.29`	`a_meteorite`	`iirc, it's in there`
`20:33.38`	`a_meteorite`	`if it works, you can install it, but first find out if it actually works :D`
`20:34.05`	`*** join/#bzflag purple_cow (n=blardebl@smtprelay.masslink.com)`
`20:34.06`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+o purple_cow] by ChanServ`
`20:36.46`	`a_meteorite`	`heh, I guess Soraya's computer blew up :o`
`20:37.06`	`blast007`	`yeah, we'll assume that means it didn't work`
`20:37.12`	`a_meteorite`	`:)`
`20:37.49`	`a_meteorite`	`Legoguy: um, but that would make a huge advantage for those who can't see black skys :P`
`20:38.02`	`a_meteorite`	`there needs to be a way to "enforce" settings, for certain game play situations`
`20:38.15`	`a_meteorite`	`at least for non-modded clients`
`20:38.25`	`Legoguy`	`so ... whats the point of your + and - keys on the keyboard then`
`20:38.29`	`Legoguy`	`which let you modify the daylight`
`20:38.40`	`a_meteorite`	`that's a tad different in my opinion`
`20:38.49`	`Legoguy`	`this will only affect the auto-changing of non-server-set skies`
`20:38.55`	`a_meteorite`	`you can already disable fog for instance, but sometimes the whole point of gameplay centers around fog`
`20:39.00`	`a_meteorite`	`ah`
`20:39.02`	`Legoguy`	`i dont like how it changes over time`
`20:39.09`	`a_meteorite`	`I see`
`20:39.27`	`Legoguy`	`i mean when i set it with my +/- keys i dont want it to change`
`20:39.31`	`JeffM2501`	`just cus he's making a patch dosn't mean we'`
`20:39.31`	`Chestal`	`Legoguy: you can already set a fixed time`
`20:39.34`	`JeffM2501`	`ll apply it :)`
`20:39.41`	`a_meteorite`	`:P`
`20:39.56`	`Legoguy`	`Chestal: via server or via client`
`20:40.14`	`Chestal`	`Legoguy: client, set fixedTime 09:00:00, although the brightness changes over the seasons of course`
`20:40.21`	`*** join/#bzflag Soraya_ (n=Soraya@pool-70-16-218-234.man.east.verizon.net)`
`20:40.23`	`Legoguy`	`hmm`
`20:40.29`	`Soraya_`	`hi`
`20:40.36`	`a_meteorite`	`Soraya_: did your computer blow up?`
`20:40.45`	`ToughShooter`	`I wish BZFlag screen would show night, when it is night for me. I always get night when it is noon for me but bright in night. ;)`
`20:40.49`	`a_meteorite`	`"Soraya_ left the chat room. (Read error: 113 (No route to host))" :)`
`20:40.52`	`Soraya_`	`lol no...sometimes my computer doesn't want to leave bzflag, so it freeezes`
`20:40.56`	`a_meteorite`	`heh`
`20:41.02`	`a_meteorite`	`did the oblisk package crash?`
`20:41.09`	`Soraya_`	`no! it worked! :)`
`20:41.12`	`a_meteorite`	`yay`
`20:41.20`	`Soraya_`	`...but i have to find it now... dunno where it installed`
`20:41.27`	`a_meteorite`	`you can install it`
`20:41.29`	`Legoguy`	`well then, i asked JB if there was a way to set a fixed time and he said no, so.. bah, looks like he forgot about fixedTime.. oh well, i dove into the bzflag code for a bit, heh`
`20:41.31`	`a_meteorite`	`it's the same place`
`20:41.43`	`Legoguy`	`oh wait`
`20:41.44`	`a_meteorite`	`Do:`
`20:41.45`	`a_meteorite`	`./Install`
`20:41.57`	`Chestal`	`Legoguy: was added in 1.10 or so, not sure. Been around for some time, I'm using it :-)`
`20:42.15`	`Soraya_`	`i found it`
`20:42.18`	`Legoguy`	`i seem to play my best when theres a certain brightness :>`
`20:42.42`	`blast007`	`Soraya_: typically, you can switch to a console, and kill bzflag that way`
`20:42.46`	`*** join/#bzflag moonpix (n=user@200-203-57-204.pltce7002.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br)`
`20:42.48`	`Soraya_`	`a_meteorite: it was already installed. when the shell finished it launched right into it`
`20:42.52`	`Chestal`	`I used to be only able to play at a certain hour during dawn, but that was on my old PC with 8 bit color depth`
`20:42.55`	`Soraya_`	`moony!!`
`20:42.57`	`a_meteorite`	`ummm... ok...`
`20:43.17`	`a_meteorite`	`it doesn't install it until you do ./Install. then you can get rid of the oblisk folder`
`20:43.26`	`a_meteorite`	`(unless, of course, the install fails which I doubt)`
`20:43.29`	`Soraya_`	`well its installed`
`20:43.35`	`moonpix`	`heya sor`
`20:43.37`	`a_meteorite`	`k`
`20:43.39`	`a_meteorite`	`ow!`
`20:43.44`	`a_meteorite`	`~lart Theme97`
`20:43.51`	`Theme97`	`...`
`20:44.04`	`Theme97`	`But I'm still alive.`
`20:44.11`	`a_meteorite`	`~kill Theme97`
`20:44.12`	`ibot`	`ACTION shoots a ionized anti-quark gun at Theme97`
`20:44.14`	`a_meteorite`	`...`
`20:44.19`	`a_meteorite`	`there you're dead`
`20:44.44`	`CIA-6`	`BZFlag: 03t-s * 10bzflag/ (include/PlayerState.h src/bzflag/LocalPlayer.cxx): Add PhantomZoned property to PlayerState`
`20:45.56`	`Theme97`	`Ah, but, what type of ions?`
`20:46.07`	`Goee`	`if someone change bzflag and put on site do they must give code?`
`20:46.16`	`a_meteorite`	`Uh, the ones that shred through your body and tear it to pieces.`
`20:46.20`	`a_meteorite`	`Goee: yes`
`20:46.26`	`a_meteorite`	`Goee: it's a part of BZFlag's license`
`20:46.33`	`Theme97`	`It is called?`
`20:46.39`	`Goee`	`k`
`20:47.07`	`a_meteorite`	`Goee: what types of things are you doing? :)`
`20:47.14`	`JeffM2501`	`a_meteorite, ions are atoms, they don't realy "shred"`
`20:47.19`	`Goee`	`not me`
`20:47.20`	`Goee`	`friend`
`20:47.22`	`*** join/#bzflag Soraya_ (n=Soraya@pool-70-16-218-234.man.east.verizon.net)`
`20:47.25`	`Goee`	`i no do code`
`20:47.26`	`a_meteorite`	`JeffM2501, ok`
`20:47.38`	`Theme97`	`Met: HAH! So... does research on antiquarks`
`20:47.41`	`a_meteorite`	`I was just making it up as I go :)`
`20:47.45`	`JeffM2501`	`and you can't realy ionise a sub atomic particle`
`20:47.53`	`JeffM2501`	`ions are made of quarks`
`20:47.54`	`a_meteorite`	`...that went over my head`
`20:48.01`	`Theme97`	`...`
`20:48.05`	`Theme97`	`So I'm not dead, wh00t!`
`20:48.08`	`Theme97`	`But you are, Met.`
`20:48.10`	`Theme97`	`Yes, you are.`
`20:48.12`	`a_meteorite`	`then what ARE you?`
`20:48.19`	`Theme98`	`I am Theme98.`
`20:48.19`	`JeffM2501`	`good lord`
`20:48.20`	`a_meteorite`	`in coma?`
`20:48.27`	`JeffM2501`	`/msg you 2`
`20:48.29`	`Theme98`	`uhh...`
`20:48.37`	`Theme98`	`<PROTECTED>`
`20:48.47`	`a_meteorite`	`JeffM2501: I've seen worse OT than this ;)`
`20:48.48`	`blast007`	`...`
`20:48.51`	`JeffM2501`	`enough with your silly bickering`
`20:48.52`	`a_meteorite`	`JeffM2501: but I'll be quiet again`
`20:48.59`	`JeffM2501`	`a_meteorite, that dosn't make you right`
`20:49.03`	`a_meteorite`	`we were only kidding`
`20:49.07`	`JeffM2501`	`it means you should know better`
`20:49.09`	`Theme98`	`...`
`20:49.12`	`a_meteorite`	`we really don't want to kill each other`
`20:49.14`	`JeffM2501`	`a little is fine, just don't drag it out`
`20:49.18`	`JeffM2501`	`I know that`
`20:49.29`	`JeffM2501`	`noone, it's a lame name`
`20:49.35`	`a_meteorite`	`heh`
`20:49.44`	`lame_name`	`hmmm`
`20:49.45`	`lame_name`	`i should reg this`
`20:49.53`	`JeffM2501`	`Goee, your friend should read the license to know what he has to provide source for, and what he does not`
`20:50.17`	`Goee`	`he siad it was really long`
`20:50.19`	`Soraya_`	`so meteorite, how do i install it again?`
`20:50.23`	`a_meteorite`	`Soraya_: ./Install`
`20:50.36`	`a_meteorite`	`then hire a lawyer :)`
`20:50.38`	`JeffM2501`	`Goee, it's not that bad, but for him to be legal he has to read it`
`20:50.54`	`JeffM2501`	`if he dosn't, and he gets something wrong, he can be suied`
`20:51.24`	`Legoguy`	`hmm with latest stable cvs my client seems to crash when i try to join a server without using the server list`
`20:51.25`	`JeffM2501`	`what kind of mods is he making?`
`20:51.29`	`Soraya_`	`how do i pm someone?`
`20:51.33`	`JeffM2501`	`Legoguy, downdate your libcurl`
`20:51.40`	`JeffM2501`	`Soraya_, //msg name mesage`
`20:51.42`	`Legoguy`	`eek`
`20:51.44`	`JeffM2501`	`sorry one /`
`20:51.48`	`JeffM2501`	`Legoguy, it's a bug in libcurl`
`20:52.18`	`Legoguy`	`bah, hopefully nothing else in my system depends on the newest one`
`20:52.32`	`JeffM2501`	`from what I hear the downdate isn't that bad`
`20:52.51`	`Legoguy`	`7.15.3?`
`20:53.01`	`JeffM2501`	`whatever the older one is`
`20:53.05`	`Legoguy`	`k lol`
`20:53.22`	`blast007`	`I think the bug report on the curl issue said they fixed it in the CVS version of curl`
`20:53.38`	`JeffM2501`	`now just have to wait 4 years for it to make it into debian`
`20:53.49`	`*** join/#bzflag Goee (i=cough@gateway/tor/x-4adedf7769b75d7e)`
`20:53.55`	`Legoguy`	`or a few days for gentoo ;)`
`20:54.49`	`Legoguy`	`k downgraded .. lets see if it worked`
`20:55.01`	`Goee`	`JeffM2501: friend say he taking out some flags he dont like`
`20:55.12`	`Legoguy`	`yep it worked`
`20:55.26`	`Legoguy`	`taking out flags!?`
`20:55.31`	`JeffM2501`	`Goee, then yes he'll have to provide source`
`20:55.35`	`Goee`	`chaning version number thing 0026 to something other`
`20:55.36`	`Legoguy`	`thats a cheat if i ever heard one`
`20:55.44`	`JeffM2501`	`we also ask that he change the proto version`
`20:55.46`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah good`
`20:55.56`	`Legoguy`	`ah`
`20:55.57`	`JeffM2501`	`then just release his moded code and he's good`
`20:56.14`	`Goee`	`he prefer before wings and other new flags`
`20:56.30`	`JeffM2501`	`if he was linking to his own lib he'd not have to release the code for that lib, just the mods to bz`
`20:56.48`	`JeffM2501`	`tho to not have flags you don't need to mod the source`
`20:57.06`	`JeffM2501`	`just don't add them to the server`
`20:58.10`	`Goee`	`he doing other too that make it not work with current`
`20:58.35`	`Goee`	`double jumping for all player`
`20:59.11`	`JeffM2501`	`fun`
`20:59.15`	`a_meteorite`	`double jumping?`
`20:59.22`	`a_meteorite`	`:\`
`20:59.23`	`JeffM2501`	`jump again in the air`
`20:59.28`	`a_meteorite`	`that could be interesting :)`
`20:59.29`	`JeffM2501`	`a_meteorite, dude you REALY need to play more games`
`20:59.45`	`a_meteorite`	`JeffM2501: I know what he meant, but it just didn't seem to fit in..`
`20:59.51`	`a_meteorite`	`but, it's his mods after all`
`20:59.56`	`JeffM2501`	`it's his mod, why does it have to "fit"`
`21:00.04`	`a_meteorite`	`"it's his mods after all"`
`21:00.09`	`JeffM2501`	`tanks can jump`
`21:00.13`	`JeffM2501`	`why not double jump ;)`
`21:00.18`	`a_meteorite`	`heh, true :)`
`21:00.21`	`JeffM2501`	`it's not that big of a stretch`
`21:00.28`	`Goee`	`wings is like double jump now`
`21:00.52`	`a_meteorite`	`Goee: are you planning to fork bz or just one for one-on-one games?`
`21:00.55`	`Goee`	`more jump on many server`
`21:00.56`	`Goee`	`some have 100`
`21:01.18`	`purple_cow`	`stupid wings`
`21:01.22`	`Goee`	`we play on network now`
`21:01.33`	`Goee`	`may put up server`
`21:01.40`	`Goee`	`but we wondered about source`
`21:01.53`	`Goee`	`since some could be use for cheater`
`21:02.30`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah it's possible`
`21:02.39`	`JeffM2501`	`but it's the license, you HAVE to do the source`
`21:02.47`	`JeffM2501`	`cheating isn't realy hard right now`
`21:02.54`	`Goee`	`we not release binaries yet`
`21:03.03`	`JeffM2501`	`so anoother set of source isn't gonna make it any easyer`
`21:03.10`	`Goee`	`k`
`21:15.04`	`*** join/#bzflag Soraya (n=Soraya@pool-70-16-218-234.man.east.verizon.net)`
`21:15.38`	`*** join/#bzflag Soraya_ (n=Soraya@pool-70-16-218-234.man.east.verizon.net)`
`21:16.33`	`Legoguy`	`Chestal: that "set fixedTime 09:00:00" goes in the cfg file?`
`21:17.28`	`Chestal`	`yes, or use /localset to set it`
`21:18.39`	`Legoguy`	`yeah, no workie`
`21:19.17`	`Legoguy`	`is there some option server-side that disables it? i wouldnt think so, because i can still change the time with my +/- keys`
`21:19.57`	`Chestal`	`how do you see that it doesn't work?`
`21:20.25`	`Legoguy`	`shouldnt the brightness of the sky change when i set it?`
`21:20.31`	`Legoguy`	`or do i have to restart bz?`
`21:20.33`	`Chestal`	`it should set the time of day in bz to 9:00, regardless of the real time or its passage`
`21:20.47`	`uso`	`ToughShooter: you need to set your location in the config file (latitude/longitude) and night and day will work correctly`
`21:20.49`	`Chestal`	`hmm, never tried to set it during the game. /localset is a newer feature`
`21:21.04`	`Legoguy`	`in that case it doesn't work, because my clock still says my local time`
`21:21.15`	`Legoguy`	`ill try restarting bz`
`21:21.16`	`Chestal`	`no, the clock display is the real time, not game time`
`21:21.36`	`Legoguy`	`ok yeah it worked`
`21:21.48`	`Legoguy`	`i set it to 00:00:00 and its definitely midnight :P`
`21:21.53`	`ToughShooter`	`uso: I tried various settings but all did not work`
`21:21.54`	`uso`	`Chestal: nice setting, thanks`
`21:22.45`	`uso`	`ToughShooter: don't forget the minus for eastern logitude`
`21:23.02`	`uso`	`*longitude`
`21:23.23`	`*** part/#bzflag Soraya_ (n=Soraya@pool-70-16-218-234.man.east.verizon.net)`
`21:24.27`	`uso`	`ToughShooter: mine are latitude 47.50, longitude -8.76, should be not too much difference for germany`
`21:27.52`	`ToughShooter`	`uso: Aah, the - was missing`
`21:28.35`	`uso`	`yeah, makes a difference :)`
`21:28.45`	`Legoguy`	`Chestal: how do i find out the current game-time i set with the -/+ keys so i can make it my fixed time?`
`21:28.49`	`uso`	`i failed in that too in my first tries`
`21:29.26`	`Chestal`	`Legoguy: no idea`
`21:29.54`	`Chestal`	`Legoguy: well, you could see where the sun is in the game and then calc the time, theoretically :-)`
`21:30.05`	`Legoguy`	`haha`
`21:30.08`	`Legoguy`	`yeah right :P`
`21:30.15`	`Legoguy`	`like im going to do that :P`
`21:31.02`	`ToughShooter`	`uso: Now I have an excuse for matches: Can't see the playing field ;)`
`21:31.24`	`uso`	`onr more excuse ... :)`
`21:34.30`	`uso`	`Legoguy: count the + or - steps needed for a full day wrap, then you will know how many minutes every keypress changes ;)`
`21:34.46`	`uso`	`or maybe the sources give away that too ;)`
`21:34.48`	`Legoguy`	`... pff`
`21:34.50`	`Legoguy`	`lol`
`21:36.35`	`Legoguy`	`hmm i think my fav time is just after sunrise, so having set my lat/long, ill just check accuweather to find out when sunrise is`
`21:42.51`	`Legoguy`	`is it just me or .. does having lat/long set disable fixedTime`
`21:43.15`	`Legoguy`	`yep, it does`
`21:49.18`	`ToughShooter`	`JeffM2501: I want to have its own variable in LocalPlayer.h that tells whether a tank is in a building or not. CrossingWalls is also set when a player is touching a teleporter. Is it ok to change CrossingWalls to show only whether a tank is in a building and use something like CrossingTeleporter for the case the tank is near teleporter?`
`21:50.57`	`ToughShooter`	`I do want to check for being in a building inside bzfsPlayerStateVerify.cxx`
`21:51.24`	`ToughShooter`	`Sorry for asking so many questions. :(`
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`22:06.51`	`Mr_Molez`	`does being in observer use a picture from the data folder that actually playing doesn't ?`
`22:07.22`	`JeffM2501`	`ToughShooter, sure, as long as it works`
`22:07.47`	`ToughShooter`	`ok`
`22:08.00`	`ToughShooter`	`I add an entry for the api as well`
`22:08.23`	`JeffM2501`	`ok`
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